1 00:00:05,381 --> 00:00:08,782 Hello, and welcome to the First Close podcast, powered by Langham Hall. 2 00:00:10,216 --> 00:00:13,236 My guest today has spent almost 25 years investing across private 3 00:00:13,316 --> 00:00:16,377 markets and recently completed one of the fastest first-time 4 00:00:16,457 --> 00:00:17,816 fundraisers ever seen in Europe. 5 00:00:18,837 --> 00:00:21,877 Mark began his career in investment banking at Close Brothers before 6 00:00:21,916 --> 00:00:25,396 holding key investment roles at Bank of America, Sovereign Capital, 7 00:00:25,477 --> 00:00:26,806 and most recently, Inflexion. 8 00:00:28,217 --> 00:00:31,616 At Inflexion, he was responsible for the sourcing, execution, and management 9 00:00:31,676 --> 00:00:34,856 of private equity investments between twenty-five to a hundred million 10 00:00:34,957 --> 00:00:38,436 across business services, data and information, and education sectors. 11 00:00:39,516 --> 00:00:43,096 Most notably, Mark led Inflexion Partnership Capital's most successful 12 00:00:43,157 --> 00:00:47,957 ever deal, reported to have generated an almost 6x return in just 18 months. 13 00:00:49,536 --> 00:00:54,466 In 2025, he co-founded Goldenpeak with ex Houlihan Lokey banker Leon Gillespie. 14 00:00:55,736 --> 00:01:00,276 Goldenpeak is a lower mid-market buyout firm focused on investing £25-75m million 15 00:01:00,376 --> 00:01:04,226 in high growth B2B services and has just closed its debut fund at £375m, 16 00:01:05,977 --> 00:01:07,656 hitting the hard cap in just 12 weeks. 17 00:01:08,616 --> 00:01:09,656 Mark Williams, welcome. 18 00:01:10,038 --> 00:01:10,418 Thanks, Tom. 19 00:01:10,579 --> 00:01:11,619 Pleasure to be with you again. 20 00:01:11,998 --> 00:01:12,538 Lovely to have you. 21 00:01:13,748 --> 00:01:16,468 Mark, look, before we talk about Goldenpeak, I'd love 22 00:01:16,488 --> 00:01:17,308 to go back to the start. 23 00:01:18,068 --> 00:01:20,308 How did your career begin in private equity? 24 00:01:21,348 --> 00:01:24,958 That feels like a long time ago, but effectively, I started out with 25 00:01:25,168 --> 00:01:29,528 Close Brothers Corporate Finance back in 2001, learning the ropes. 26 00:01:29,648 --> 00:01:32,968 A- and there I had a good experience with all the training in the sort of basics. 27 00:01:33,088 --> 00:01:37,008 But really as the dot-com, if you remember that, the dot-com bubble burst. 28 00:01:37,598 --> 00:01:37,618 I do. 29 00:01:37,668 --> 00:01:41,398 And, I had to look for, finding a, position in a different role, and that's 30 00:01:41,408 --> 00:01:46,268 where I got to, BofA Capital Partners, which was a European mid-market investor. 31 00:01:46,708 --> 00:01:49,708 And I was very fortunate because that experience of valuations, 32 00:01:49,748 --> 00:01:52,467 working with businesses, got me a great role in the business. 33 00:01:53,228 --> 00:01:56,668 but really w- we were working with a firm that didn't have a presence in Europe. 34 00:01:57,228 --> 00:02:01,208 and actually investing without a name, without the sort of track record 35 00:02:01,268 --> 00:02:04,688 meant that we had to find deals, scrap for them, do stuff from scratch. 36 00:02:04,728 --> 00:02:08,248 No one knew who we were, which was great learning because you go into a 37 00:02:08,288 --> 00:02:12,558 room with no expectation, no right to win, and that's, again, and we'll come 38 00:02:12,588 --> 00:02:13,338 onto how we think about Goldenpeak. 39 00:02:14,168 --> 00:02:18,248 You've really got to earn your spurs, and, BofA taught me that on a European stage. 40 00:02:18,288 --> 00:02:21,348 I worked with some great people who've gone on to many other successful 41 00:02:21,408 --> 00:02:22,988 firms, and I learned a lot, frankly. 42 00:02:23,968 --> 00:02:28,088 I guess, learning your career in the dot-com bubble and then through 2008, it 43 00:02:28,128 --> 00:02:30,768 must have been, a steep learning curve. 44 00:02:31,828 --> 00:02:35,968 Yeah, I think there was lots of, things to come, and obviously the GFC was soon 45 00:02:36,028 --> 00:02:39,888 to loom, i- in the market, and it meant you really had to go back to basics. 46 00:02:39,968 --> 00:02:40,928 What's a good business? 47 00:02:41,048 --> 00:02:42,048 How's it gonna perform? 48 00:02:42,188 --> 00:02:45,048 I know people talk about cash flow, but it's probably 20 years ago, the industry 49 00:02:45,068 --> 00:02:49,088 was maturing from the very early Close Brothers private equity firm would've 50 00:02:49,128 --> 00:02:53,178 been small business to what it is today, and those businesses were growing. 51 00:02:53,228 --> 00:02:54,928 CVC, Cinven were also quite small. 52 00:02:54,938 --> 00:02:58,248 They were doing, 100 million pound checks compared to what we, know about today. 53 00:02:59,048 --> 00:03:02,538 The industry was maturing, and we learned really how to find good 54 00:03:02,588 --> 00:03:03,848 opportunities and invest in them. 55 00:03:03,868 --> 00:03:08,588 But actually, it caused me to pause, it's probably in the mid-2000s, 56 00:03:08,628 --> 00:03:12,368 to, to how do you work with a firm that's got, has got a right to do, 57 00:03:12,408 --> 00:03:14,148 to win, to really generate returns? 58 00:03:14,308 --> 00:03:16,008 And, that's what drew me to Sovereign Capital. 59 00:03:17,468 --> 00:03:19,568 They were probably the leading buy and build specialist in the 60 00:03:19,628 --> 00:03:21,768 UK, and still are one of them. 61 00:03:21,808 --> 00:03:24,698 And actually, what they were doing was saying, "How can I invest and 62 00:03:24,788 --> 00:03:29,188 create a return rather than financial engineering or, hoping that you 63 00:03:29,208 --> 00:03:31,608 get lucky with an exit?" They were actually building value in the things 64 00:03:31,648 --> 00:03:37,028 they did and taught me really how to identify a company, work with a 65 00:03:37,088 --> 00:03:40,748 team to create value in that company, grow that company internationally, 66 00:03:41,468 --> 00:03:43,128 to a serially much bigger scale. 67 00:03:43,368 --> 00:03:45,368 These are themes we'll talk about with Goldenpeak. 68 00:03:45,388 --> 00:03:49,728 But taught me how to do that, and I had a great five or six years there, 69 00:03:49,808 --> 00:03:53,708 learning the ropes, getting promoted, a- and learning how to invest my own money. 70 00:03:53,748 --> 00:03:58,052 We had to put substantial sums of our Own, own, frankly, all my bonus, every money, 71 00:03:58,112 --> 00:04:01,941 every penny I got at Sovereign went back into investments, which makes you think 72 00:04:02,012 --> 00:04:06,772 more curiously, it is worrisome, but it, makes you think, this is my money. 73 00:04:06,852 --> 00:04:10,772 How am I, how is it gonna make a return?" Not just, it was 74 00:04:10,812 --> 00:04:12,932 from some magic sort of area. 75 00:04:13,092 --> 00:04:13,712 It was incredible. 76 00:04:13,812 --> 00:04:18,852 So we learned a lot and, really this moving to, Inflexion was a, 77 00:04:19,552 --> 00:04:24,292 was generated off how do you combine those experiences into moving at a 78 00:04:24,332 --> 00:04:31,432 probably higher pace across, a, sort of more, I guess a wider, remit. 79 00:04:31,532 --> 00:04:36,212 So yeah, that drove a, an opportunity to move to a sort of rapidly growing 80 00:04:36,232 --> 00:04:37,932 firm at the time in probably 2011. 81 00:04:38,692 --> 00:04:41,872 It's crazy really to think some of those names that you mentioned there, the, 82 00:04:41,912 --> 00:04:46,082 kind of what are now household names within private equity are now, from where 83 00:04:46,082 --> 00:04:47,312 they were to, to where they are now. 84 00:04:47,962 --> 00:04:50,862 It, must have changed so much for you in the last 20, 25 years, the 85 00:04:50,892 --> 00:04:52,212 kind of the private equity landscape. 86 00:04:52,912 --> 00:04:53,112 Yeah. 87 00:04:53,792 --> 00:04:58,092 the, sort of the concept of even value creation in 2011 didn't exist. 88 00:04:58,292 --> 00:05:01,212 There was, there weren't value acc- acceleration, value creation teams. 89 00:05:01,271 --> 00:05:05,872 There was, limited numbers of integrated pan-European opportunities. 90 00:05:05,882 --> 00:05:08,072 There were a few multi-fund funds. 91 00:05:08,792 --> 00:05:14,172 the Inflexions, the Bridge Points, have now expanded to, to much larger scale 92 00:05:14,212 --> 00:05:18,372 and the sort of the Cinvens, CVCs have got even bigger above that, Apex, Advent. 93 00:05:18,432 --> 00:05:22,472 So it, it's changed a lot, but I don't think what, hasn't changed is the 94 00:05:22,532 --> 00:05:27,192 fact that you get dynamic companies what from £3 to 15 million EBITDA who 95 00:05:27,232 --> 00:05:31,602 want to get much bigger, and we will obviously talk about Goldenpeak, but 96 00:05:31,652 --> 00:05:34,032 that range in 25 years hasn't changed. 97 00:05:34,052 --> 00:05:35,082 There are lots of them. 98 00:05:35,112 --> 00:05:36,772 They're great founder entrepreneurs. 99 00:05:37,202 --> 00:05:38,372 They want to accelerate. 100 00:05:38,412 --> 00:05:41,052 They want a firm who can talk their language, but also just work with 101 00:05:41,072 --> 00:05:45,412 them- not against them, not with lots of leverage, not with frankly, 102 00:05:46,972 --> 00:05:48,332 a I know more than you approach. 103 00:05:49,192 --> 00:05:51,752 we definitely do not know any more than the founders we back. 104 00:05:51,772 --> 00:05:53,972 In fact, we know a lot less than them, but we do know about how 105 00:05:53,992 --> 00:05:57,812 to help them, and that, that was what I saw at all Bank of America, 106 00:05:57,952 --> 00:06:00,262 Sovereign, and particularly Inflexion. 107 00:06:00,262 --> 00:06:03,791 And, you know, I think Inflexion were one of the strongest at it. 108 00:06:04,152 --> 00:06:06,912 they're a great investor, but they actually do support teams. 109 00:06:06,952 --> 00:06:11,152 They have a culture of helping businesses grow and a sort of a curiousness about 110 00:06:11,192 --> 00:06:16,192 how do we support you more, rather than some of the, thing I quite find 111 00:06:16,232 --> 00:06:19,552 quite funny in private equity is that some people, they walk up to a rock. 112 00:06:19,872 --> 00:06:22,132 They spend millions on due diligence, in the rock. 113 00:06:22,172 --> 00:06:23,892 They conclude it's a rock and walk over it. 114 00:06:24,492 --> 00:06:27,432 Certainly my experience with the better investors is not that, 115 00:06:28,192 --> 00:06:30,872 and, if you spend too long doing that you can't grow a business. 116 00:06:31,772 --> 00:06:36,032 was lucky to spend 14 years at Inflexion in their different services teams, 117 00:06:36,892 --> 00:06:40,532 investing in some great companies, but frankly, backing some great individuals. 118 00:06:41,132 --> 00:06:43,692 it's quite interesting why you, private equity sometimes has this 119 00:06:43,712 --> 00:06:48,912 reputation of, in the press or, the kind of in the general public of 120 00:06:48,952 --> 00:06:50,902 being a vulture or, whatever it is. 121 00:06:50,932 --> 00:06:53,212 So everything you've talked about there on supporting founders 122 00:06:53,332 --> 00:06:56,075 and particularly the way private equity's going is quite interesting. 123 00:06:56,116 --> 00:07:00,858 It's maybe a different way to think about private equity to perhaps what The man on 124 00:07:00,888 --> 00:07:02,728 the street would think of what we do here. 125 00:07:02,808 --> 00:07:06,568 Yeah, and, it's definitely that, but it's what, we've seen, it, this applies 126 00:07:06,588 --> 00:07:10,248 to all of Goldenpeak as well, and myself in particular, we've seen that 127 00:07:10,288 --> 00:07:11,428 behavior generates better returns. 128 00:07:12,108 --> 00:07:13,348 So we've flipped it on its head. 129 00:07:13,388 --> 00:07:16,638 It's not, "I'm cleverer than you, I'm gonna tell you what to do," and 130 00:07:16,688 --> 00:07:18,648 that will somehow generate returns. 131 00:07:18,688 --> 00:07:22,908 And then that has worked in many, past, past investment cycles. 132 00:07:23,408 --> 00:07:28,907 Here, it's how do we combine our skills to help you grow faster as a, team? 133 00:07:29,528 --> 00:07:30,668 what do you need in that team? 134 00:07:31,288 --> 00:07:35,818 And that sort of lack of, ego on both sides drives, frankly, better 135 00:07:35,828 --> 00:07:37,908 results because people are bright. 136 00:07:37,928 --> 00:07:39,988 The people we work with are b- are good people. 137 00:07:40,008 --> 00:07:42,648 They just wanna know, I've seen that work before. 138 00:07:42,708 --> 00:07:46,648 That hasn't worked." And once you've got above the nought to three of 139 00:07:46,668 --> 00:07:50,488 EBITDA, the, real hardest yards are founders founding businesses. 140 00:07:50,528 --> 00:07:51,608 That's incredible stuff. 141 00:07:52,188 --> 00:07:55,588 Once they've got to the size we can help them, then we can really put the 142 00:07:55,648 --> 00:07:59,068 afterburners on, and they… I just have the utmost respect for anyone who 143 00:07:59,088 --> 00:08:03,768 can set up a business with no profit, no income, no revenue, and actually get 144 00:08:03,808 --> 00:08:05,048 it to the size when we can help them. 145 00:08:05,268 --> 00:08:07,608 that is the hardest part, and we're frankly very lucky to be 146 00:08:07,628 --> 00:08:10,468 able to get on the journey once that hard work's been started. 147 00:08:10,828 --> 00:08:10,988 Yeah. 148 00:08:11,348 --> 00:08:12,868 do you think that helps you get deals done? 149 00:08:13,248 --> 00:08:15,648 Do founders respond to that story better than perhaps they 150 00:08:15,668 --> 00:08:17,648 would from a, different investor? 151 00:08:19,028 --> 00:08:19,728 we founded the business. 152 00:08:19,768 --> 00:08:23,338 There are lots of private equity firms founded by the original founders. 153 00:08:23,428 --> 00:08:26,148 Not many left these days, but there are, and I think those firms 154 00:08:26,208 --> 00:08:27,588 still tend to do slightly better. 155 00:08:28,728 --> 00:08:31,748 We're in that stage where we are, Leo and I, the two founders, and 156 00:08:31,768 --> 00:08:33,368 we can speak that exact language. 157 00:08:34,028 --> 00:08:36,708 I still think, or with people who found real businesses, 158 00:08:37,008 --> 00:08:37,948 we're, lucky to help them. 159 00:08:38,948 --> 00:08:43,588 but what I would say is the difference is, as a cohesive unit of people, we 160 00:08:43,668 --> 00:08:48,108 can respond to your problems, the issues you have, and give you a, an answer. 161 00:08:48,128 --> 00:08:48,768 It's not yes, no. 162 00:08:48,798 --> 00:08:50,058 It's a, we could do this. 163 00:08:50,148 --> 00:08:53,078 We could do that." And I'm seeing that increasingly as private equity 164 00:08:53,148 --> 00:08:56,988 gets bigger, investment committees are very dislocated from their teams. 165 00:08:57,388 --> 00:08:58,258 That's not a criticism. 166 00:08:58,508 --> 00:09:02,968 It's just a function of being a multi-asset manager, and therefore, 167 00:09:03,008 --> 00:09:07,608 when you're dealing with, an individual, they've likely got to report back to base. 168 00:09:08,328 --> 00:09:11,888 That's, good corporate behavior, but ultimately, it slows down decision-making. 169 00:09:12,108 --> 00:09:17,968 And at the £3-15m EBITDA range, the SME, there isn't much time to 170 00:09:18,008 --> 00:09:20,278 wait for a two-week turnaround. 171 00:09:20,548 --> 00:09:23,308 And, even worse than that, there's, an issue of you agree something at 172 00:09:23,348 --> 00:09:28,248 a board, and then a few weeks later you get a sort of a, I know we said 173 00:09:28,308 --> 00:09:29,608 this, but we've gotta do that." 174 00:09:29,658 --> 00:09:33,028 And it's, it drive these return… These firms drive good returns. 175 00:09:33,148 --> 00:09:37,508 It's not a critical, it's not a negative, but it, makes it harder. 176 00:09:37,548 --> 00:09:40,688 And particularly the lower mid-market is where we think the opportunity is, to be 177 00:09:40,768 --> 00:09:45,748 dynamic, to give, what was agreed at one point and deliver it a few days later. 178 00:09:45,768 --> 00:09:49,208 And, we'll talk about our first deal, but we did that in three and a half weeks. 179 00:09:49,688 --> 00:09:49,708 Wow. 180 00:09:50,928 --> 00:09:52,188 with a, bolt on at the same time. 181 00:09:52,208 --> 00:09:56,188 So y- it's proved its worth already, and we're hoping to have 182 00:09:56,228 --> 00:09:57,368 a few more to talk about soon. 183 00:09:57,867 --> 00:10:02,907 Yeah, I, do think, for the work we're doing with similar firms at the moment, 184 00:10:03,228 --> 00:10:07,007 the kind of the next wave of spin-outs that I think we're in at the moment, 185 00:10:07,087 --> 00:10:13,547 that agility, that nimbleness that new platforms can, demonstrate versus, perhaps 186 00:10:13,587 --> 00:10:16,727 some of the mid-market and the upper mid-market firms, the ones that used to 187 00:10:16,768 --> 00:10:19,327 be doing the deals at the sort of sizes you're doing, who have grown and grown. 188 00:10:19,567 --> 00:10:23,528 It does feel a bit like, yeah, that agility and that speed of execution is 189 00:10:23,608 --> 00:10:27,608 what is pushing businesses like yours, I think, to raise a lot of money quickly. 190 00:10:27,627 --> 00:10:29,027 Investors wanna underwrite it more. 191 00:10:29,688 --> 00:10:31,167 Stats all show that they outperform. 192 00:10:31,207 --> 00:10:35,768 So yeah, our, sort of house view on this is that, those sort of funds I, II, and 193 00:10:35,827 --> 00:10:37,407 III, I think is where a lot of capital is. 194 00:10:37,448 --> 00:10:39,887 There's almost barbell happening in private markets at the moment. 195 00:10:39,927 --> 00:10:43,108 You've got the very big, very beautiful, household names in private 196 00:10:43,167 --> 00:10:46,487 equity, and then you've got, sector specialists, spin-outs, hungry, agile 197 00:10:46,547 --> 00:10:50,047 teams like yours, and then it's the stranded middle ground is I think where 198 00:10:52,104 --> 00:10:53,864 perhaps there's less capital going at the moment. 199 00:10:54,804 --> 00:10:57,304 Yeah, and I think there's some wonderful people and individuals 200 00:10:57,344 --> 00:11:00,214 across all these firms, so I think there's plenty of talent out there. 201 00:11:00,224 --> 00:11:05,584 But I think the thing that we focus on is, actually, knowing 202 00:11:05,624 --> 00:11:09,403 what you're good at, raising a fund appropriate for that market. 203 00:11:09,624 --> 00:11:13,424 And, what we see a lot of the time is, dislocated strategies where 204 00:11:13,444 --> 00:11:17,004 either the people or the fund are not fit for the market they're in. 205 00:11:17,064 --> 00:11:20,244 And that's not 'cause they're bad, it's because it's been encouraged to 206 00:11:20,264 --> 00:11:22,734 ra- either the fund or the founders have been encouraged to raise lots more 207 00:11:22,744 --> 00:11:25,654 money than they need, and then they have to backtrack a few years later when 208 00:11:25,684 --> 00:11:27,784 they realize they're not in the market that they have the experience for. 209 00:11:27,804 --> 00:11:30,753 And so some of the ones that have scaled are really impressive 'cause 210 00:11:30,764 --> 00:11:33,933 they've gone through that growth pain and made it almost they made it 211 00:11:33,964 --> 00:11:37,674 through takeoff velocity and have left that showing a repeatable model, and 212 00:11:37,704 --> 00:11:40,984 that would include the Inflexions and the bridge points and, many others. 213 00:11:41,804 --> 00:11:44,374 whereas I think others have, will try and replicate that 214 00:11:44,424 --> 00:11:45,444 but don't have that experience. 215 00:11:45,494 --> 00:11:50,444 And so Goldenpeak is not set up to, triple its fund size in the next three weeks. 216 00:11:50,564 --> 00:11:52,744 It's not set to do something different in the next few weeks. 217 00:11:52,804 --> 00:11:57,824 It's set up to address founders' issues in that £25-75m equity market, 218 00:11:58,644 --> 00:11:59,904 and that way we can repeat that. 219 00:11:59,934 --> 00:12:02,944 And our investors have been wonderful supporters of that. 220 00:12:02,984 --> 00:12:06,204 But whilst we talk about funds one, two, and three, and frankly we've only 221 00:12:06,244 --> 00:12:10,584 got one, we're not trying to change the world, but we would wanna see that success 222 00:12:10,624 --> 00:12:14,984 repeat in that similar phase because then we can go on and I, believe that, 223 00:12:17,004 --> 00:12:20,004 that focus, that sort of guiding light will keep us honest when you're 224 00:12:20,044 --> 00:12:24,464 trying to scale f- from, £375m to 3 billion, which we are absolutely not. 225 00:12:25,004 --> 00:12:27,644 But that is impressive and very hard to do and requires a lot 226 00:12:27,724 --> 00:12:30,384 of non-deal doing experience. 227 00:12:31,324 --> 00:12:34,284 and the firms that do it are brilliant, but actually we're here to find good 228 00:12:34,324 --> 00:12:39,204 businesses, work with teams, and that is really the be all end all 229 00:12:39,224 --> 00:12:40,604 for the firm, certainly for now. 230 00:12:40,904 --> 00:12:41,044 Yeah. 231 00:12:41,344 --> 00:12:44,324 It's, almost that shift from investment management to asset management, right? 232 00:12:44,404 --> 00:12:49,904 Kind of once you become a AUM aggregator, I think, this, everybody, the stats all 233 00:12:49,944 --> 00:12:54,124 show and you hear a lot of people talk about it, that's when the business starts 234 00:12:54,164 --> 00:13:00,343 to change, from, the kind of core focus of investing to just that, that AUM play. 235 00:13:00,404 --> 00:13:00,624 Yeah. 236 00:13:01,004 --> 00:13:03,564 And, again, if you've got the mettle for it and you can do it like some 237 00:13:03,604 --> 00:13:05,004 of these firms have done, great. 238 00:13:05,144 --> 00:13:08,664 But actually we see great opportunities that are still here for that firm. 239 00:13:08,704 --> 00:13:13,104 And o- once you build a firm to stay focused as either an AUM 240 00:13:13,184 --> 00:13:17,684 builder or a investment builder, then you can do what you wanna do. 241 00:13:17,724 --> 00:13:19,684 Whereas I think if you build it as an investment builder and suddenly 242 00:13:19,724 --> 00:13:23,854 try and flip after six years, it becomes very difficult and you have 243 00:13:23,884 --> 00:13:25,344 to change the team who are doing it. 244 00:13:25,984 --> 00:13:30,004 And we could talk at length about this, but ultimately, Goldenpeak is 245 00:13:30,044 --> 00:13:34,354 built from Leon and, my experience of what works really well, what drives 246 00:13:34,864 --> 00:13:36,533 bigger returns, money multiple. 247 00:13:37,844 --> 00:13:41,374 and so we try to work with all of those features, almost ignoring 248 00:13:41,384 --> 00:13:44,074 anything else that isn't about supporting good businesses. 249 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:47,720 Let's switch gears a second. 250 00:13:47,780 --> 00:13:49,840 So we talked a little bit there about Goldenpeak. 251 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,040 I'd be interested to know more about what drove you to set up 252 00:13:54,050 --> 00:13:57,967 Goldenpeak, why now, and what made you want to join forces with Leon? 253 00:13:59,387 --> 00:14:01,787 Yeah, it was natural continuation actually. 254 00:14:03,027 --> 00:14:05,007 we, Leon and myself, wanted to do it differently. 255 00:14:05,407 --> 00:14:07,487 We wanted to take some of the best learnings from some of the best 256 00:14:07,567 --> 00:14:12,207 firms in the industry, and combine them into a fluid opportunity of 257 00:14:12,267 --> 00:14:16,067 finding businesses, executing and, supporting in one ambitious place. 258 00:14:17,527 --> 00:14:19,627 Leon was the obvious and only choice. 259 00:14:20,907 --> 00:14:24,667 as we talked before, a lot of these firms are marriages c- of convenience, 260 00:14:25,987 --> 00:14:29,847 firms that have arisen on a fundraising basis because people need to do them. 261 00:14:30,267 --> 00:14:31,667 Neither Leon and I needed to do this. 262 00:14:32,067 --> 00:14:32,867 We wanted to do it. 263 00:14:33,947 --> 00:14:40,277 and we've seen that experience of strong origination, finding companies, providing 264 00:14:40,367 --> 00:14:45,277 choice, strong execution capabilities, but also strong investment skills. 265 00:14:45,347 --> 00:14:46,947 The combination's really powerful. 266 00:14:47,447 --> 00:14:50,387 I think private equity, certainly if you ask Leon, has become lazy. 267 00:14:50,887 --> 00:14:54,767 Expects deals to come into London or a major city because you have the money. 268 00:14:55,267 --> 00:14:57,647 You have no right, as we talked about with Bank of America, 269 00:14:57,687 --> 00:14:58,807 you had no right to win a deal. 270 00:14:59,127 --> 00:15:02,667 And we believe no matter how successful or, strong fundraising 271 00:15:02,767 --> 00:15:04,927 is, we have no right to win a deal. 272 00:15:05,587 --> 00:15:08,047 We're, as good as the next investor, and we'll hope to win in with 273 00:15:08,087 --> 00:15:09,307 our own, our merits in any place. 274 00:15:09,347 --> 00:15:15,007 So it was an obvious partnership to, to have that drive, to both 275 00:15:15,107 --> 00:15:17,387 resign, to both take the leap. 276 00:15:17,547 --> 00:15:18,337 We had good jobs. 277 00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:19,667 We had no need to do it. 278 00:15:19,727 --> 00:15:23,327 And again, I think that's the drive that, that allows you to say, if 279 00:15:23,347 --> 00:15:27,067 you're gonna take that leap, what, should you create?" And we were able 280 00:15:27,847 --> 00:15:31,187 to, look at the space, but perhaps we could always argue this is a bit lazy. 281 00:15:31,287 --> 00:15:32,267 We'd always worked in this space. 282 00:15:32,307 --> 00:15:33,587 We'd always worked in the low, mid-market. 283 00:15:33,987 --> 00:15:39,607 So for us it wasn't, it wasn't, "Oh, I happen to know the space, I'm only 284 00:15:39,627 --> 00:15:42,647 gonna do it." It was the perfect mix of the space is a really good 285 00:15:42,687 --> 00:15:46,647 opportunity, but also we've both done a lot of it, so it was an easy 286 00:15:46,687 --> 00:15:47,987 sort of partnership to, to build on. 287 00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:51,970 It's, like you said, it's a crowded space. 288 00:15:52,050 --> 00:15:53,691 You have no right to do deals. 289 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,099 What why is Goldenpeak different? 290 00:15:56,439 --> 00:16:01,319 It's a, I, don't wanna ask a nebulous question, but, yeah, what kind of 291 00:16:01,359 --> 00:16:03,759 differentiates you from the next investor? 292 00:16:04,579 --> 00:16:05,019 Yeah. 293 00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:09,560 And, I th- I think the perception that private equity is crowded is, 294 00:16:09,619 --> 00:16:15,379 tricky because it is, but if you relatively look at the £25 to 75 market 295 00:16:15,439 --> 00:16:19,739 versus the £150m plus, and I've sold multiple businesses in that latter 296 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,739 market, that is definitely crowded. 297 00:16:22,019 --> 00:16:26,319 There are five bidders, fully done bidders, diligence, SPA, all that 298 00:16:26,359 --> 00:16:30,439 done at that upper, at that, size market, call this £500m equity market. 299 00:16:31,019 --> 00:16:34,319 At, the level that we operate, yes, there's always a couple of bidders, but 300 00:16:34,339 --> 00:16:37,759 it's rare to have t- five, let alone 10. 301 00:16:38,299 --> 00:16:41,959 So there's, definitely less crowding, but, there is always an excellent bidder 302 00:16:41,999 --> 00:16:43,979 in most processes for a good company. 303 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,039 But what we then find is you have companies, private firms that 304 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:51,539 are excellent, but their ultimate mandate is to get stuff cheap, 305 00:16:51,599 --> 00:16:52,699 and they do good things with them. 306 00:16:53,460 --> 00:16:57,039 we won't mention any names, but their mandate to LPs is buy 307 00:16:57,100 --> 00:16:59,279 cheap, invest well, sell high. 308 00:16:59,619 --> 00:17:01,359 Brilliant strategy, cannot fault it. 309 00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:03,639 It's always worked for probably the longest time in 310 00:17:03,679 --> 00:17:05,319 history, forget private equity. 311 00:17:05,719 --> 00:17:07,979 But it limits you, because when you see something that's good and 312 00:17:07,999 --> 00:17:10,920 you really wanna get it, you can't, 'cause you've got to buy for six 313 00:17:10,979 --> 00:17:14,119 times, or you've got to show that it's seven and a half, not eight times. 314 00:17:14,139 --> 00:17:19,660 And so we set the business up to Found those teams who want to grow, do things 315 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,800 at speed, and then work with them to be agile, both on the investment process, 316 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,880 so we talked about doing a deal in three and a half weeks with a bolt on. 317 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,120 no other firm we think could do that or very few could, and we could talk 318 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,680 the language of the founder saying, "We'll, get on this and deliver it." 319 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:37,540 And so we set our funds up to do that. 320 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,779 we set the fund up to, to, have a team like that, so a team of dynamic 321 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:49,270 individuals who can operate, in difficult, high-speed environments, but 322 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,730 actually good people who get the best out of each other and work together 323 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,940 and, I think that's also has changed. 324 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,220 There's that sort of joke that a lot of private equity firms are 325 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,860 five people who used to like each other and they don't anymore. 326 00:18:01,870 --> 00:18:03,940 And then, and hopefully we all like each other. 327 00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:07,480 Hopefully the team like each other and that won't change, but that gives you 328 00:18:07,540 --> 00:18:11,130 a certain feel and, we would say to anyone who meets people from Goldenpeak, 329 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,300 have a look at how the individuals you meet interact with each other. 330 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:16,600 Do they shake each other's hands? 331 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,940 Do they look like they don't wanna be in the same room with them? 332 00:18:19,420 --> 00:18:21,800 Because that's really important when you're working with a management team 333 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,180 who you've gotta work closely with. 334 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,140 If you can't get on with your colleagues, or at least it's a, at best 335 00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:32,200 manageable dislike, that, that's not a way to d- do a deal quickly to then 336 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,780 help a management team grow quickly 'cause there's a lot of politicking. 337 00:18:34,820 --> 00:18:39,430 And so ultimately we wanted to give a clean focus for that, that 338 00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:43,480 mid-market and then allow us to work with companies quickly and, so far 339 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,340 we, we feel comfortable that there's definitely a, market for that business. 340 00:18:46,620 --> 00:18:51,520 It's managing family dynamics or a bad episode of "Succession." yeah, exactly. 341 00:18:51,780 --> 00:18:54,919 And, I, th- there's lots of things that go around with working 342 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:56,300 together in all industries. 343 00:18:56,340 --> 00:19:00,060 I don't think it's unique to private equity, but, the focus on, 344 00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:05,260 generating returns, money multiple is what we set the fund up to do. 345 00:19:05,340 --> 00:19:08,610 If we generate a good money multiple, the management teams and the founders we back 346 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,460 are gonna make many times more than that. 347 00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:11,240 That's it. 348 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,380 We can divide the pie up, so who has more or less of it, but if 349 00:19:14,420 --> 00:19:17,140 you don't create a much bigger pie, there's nothing to divide. 350 00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:21,500 And I think a lot of people have got, into navel-gazing on, I want more than you. 351 00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:25,300 But actually the goal is to make it as big as possible and then your 352 00:19:25,460 --> 00:19:30,180 share of that will be in terms of your return personally, not just 353 00:19:30,220 --> 00:19:33,900 financial wealth, but the wealth of actually creating great companies and, 354 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,620 we want to see the th- the invest- business that we invest in go on. 355 00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:42,840 So the stuff I've worked with over the years has gone on with multiple 356 00:19:42,849 --> 00:19:46,680 private equity owners to be much bigger, and you can ask those individuals who 357 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,629 acquire businesses that I worked on, you can ask them what they think and 358 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,700 they're like, one said at a very large fund, "That business you put together 359 00:19:53,740 --> 00:19:54,780 is the best business we ever bought." 360 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:55,910 I didn't put it together. 361 00:19:55,940 --> 00:19:57,020 The management team put it together. 362 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,009 But I want Goldenpeak buyers in the future to think, "Wow, we wanna buy 363 00:20:02,020 --> 00:20:05,520 everything off Goldenpeak," because they really do care about what they've built. 364 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,069 they're gonna get paid for that, but, actually I'm gonna do well out of it 365 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,100 and that, that has sometimes been lost. 366 00:20:11,140 --> 00:20:12,767 It's just- But what's it? 367 00:20:12,807 --> 00:20:15,427 Pile them high, stack them high, pile them out the door. 368 00:20:15,608 --> 00:20:16,267 that's not what we want. 369 00:20:16,487 --> 00:20:16,497 Yeah. 370 00:20:16,607 --> 00:20:20,027 We, wanna build high quality businesses that, that, people who come to us 371 00:20:20,308 --> 00:20:23,407 feel like, great, that's something we're gonna go on with again. 372 00:20:23,467 --> 00:20:23,708 Yeah. 373 00:20:25,184 --> 00:20:27,964 Sp- speed is, you've talked about it a couple of times now. 374 00:20:28,424 --> 00:20:32,484 F- fund one, you hit your hard cap in 12 weeks, first deal done in three weeks. 375 00:20:34,024 --> 00:20:35,044 What, makes that possible? 376 00:20:35,124 --> 00:20:38,184 I know you've touched on a couple of things there, but, even the 377 00:20:38,244 --> 00:20:42,224 fund close, 12 weeks to hard cap is phenomenal by anybody's standards. 378 00:20:43,284 --> 00:20:44,724 what were the factors that got you there? 379 00:20:45,504 --> 00:20:48,364 obviously, it was working with Langham Hall, one of the key- Thank you, Mark. 380 00:20:49,264 --> 00:20:50,264 but, no, it was. 381 00:20:50,344 --> 00:20:52,744 It w- there was an excellent support there, and we picked sort of 382 00:20:52,764 --> 00:20:55,044 high-quality people all the way through. 383 00:20:56,264 --> 00:20:59,244 I, think there's, a sort of phrase, and I'm not unfortunately a military man, 384 00:20:59,284 --> 00:21:01,124 but they call it, hurry up and wait. 385 00:21:01,324 --> 00:21:05,184 And that is you prepare a long time in advance. 386 00:21:05,224 --> 00:21:06,724 You don't know when things are gonna happen, but you 387 00:21:06,784 --> 00:21:08,254 have to be constantly ready. 388 00:21:08,684 --> 00:21:12,064 and, stretching the ana- analogy a bit, but ultimately, 389 00:21:12,084 --> 00:21:13,324 we know this market's right. 390 00:21:13,364 --> 00:21:17,844 We know there's an opportunity, and we prepare diligently, so when 391 00:21:17,884 --> 00:21:19,484 the time is right, you're there. 392 00:21:19,604 --> 00:21:22,424 I think as I talked about before, some of the fundraising market seems to 393 00:21:22,464 --> 00:21:27,114 be stuff stuck together last minute, bit of sticky plaster, bend the 394 00:21:27,144 --> 00:21:29,044 story a bit to fit what sounds good. 395 00:21:29,804 --> 00:21:32,104 and that's a, that's just a bit of life in there. 396 00:21:32,184 --> 00:21:36,054 But really, we would have gone out with this story in a good or bad market. 397 00:21:36,224 --> 00:21:36,864 We believed in it. 398 00:21:37,324 --> 00:21:40,044 We would have waited two years to raise the fund and gone out on the 399 00:21:40,084 --> 00:21:41,984 road every week for as long as it took. 400 00:21:42,404 --> 00:21:44,754 We, didn't care what happened, we were gonna raise this fund. 401 00:21:45,844 --> 00:21:47,244 but we'd also prepared. 402 00:21:47,304 --> 00:21:48,784 We were a good partnership. 403 00:21:48,824 --> 00:21:51,244 We had some excellent teams around us, not just your good 404 00:21:51,304 --> 00:21:53,804 sales, but strong fundraising agent who really understood that. 405 00:21:53,824 --> 00:22:01,104 And I think the key thing was we were able to articulate our story with evidence in 406 00:22:01,144 --> 00:22:02,884 a market that we'd operated in before. 407 00:22:03,484 --> 00:22:05,424 So it wasn't anything new. 408 00:22:05,534 --> 00:22:10,224 It wasn't an adjustment of l- big scale changes that sort of might be true or not. 409 00:22:10,284 --> 00:22:13,084 We were in that market for the last 20 years, both of us, 410 00:22:13,524 --> 00:22:15,003 and we could evidence that. 411 00:22:16,144 --> 00:22:21,014 but I also think we, we have seen from our experience in, the last 20 years, 412 00:22:21,624 --> 00:22:25,604 if you've got a neat story and it is accurately backed up, you're better 413 00:22:25,664 --> 00:22:28,844 off working with a smaller group of people and getting there quickly. 414 00:22:28,904 --> 00:22:31,944 I would argue the same for when a management team is selecting an investor. 415 00:22:31,984 --> 00:22:35,643 You're better off picking three or four good private firms, building a 416 00:22:35,664 --> 00:22:39,364 relationship, and that will get you done rather than what you call spray and play. 417 00:22:39,444 --> 00:22:41,044 Send it to 300 people and see what happens. 418 00:22:41,064 --> 00:22:41,864 Hope for the best, yeah. 419 00:22:42,104 --> 00:22:42,324 Yeah. 420 00:22:42,484 --> 00:22:45,593 And, I was very surprised with the number of fundraising agents when 421 00:22:45,624 --> 00:22:49,713 they would say, "We'll take you on a roadshow here, and we'll send your 422 00:22:49,744 --> 00:22:54,054 book out to 40 people in this country and 50 in that country." A- and how 423 00:22:54,054 --> 00:22:55,764 are you gonna get to know that fund? 424 00:22:55,814 --> 00:23:01,014 Whereas we were lucky to actually deal with probably only three or four times 425 00:23:01,064 --> 00:23:05,724 the number of LPs that we actually got to invest in the fund, and quickly we'll get 426 00:23:05,824 --> 00:23:10,564 that down to probably twice the number we have in the fund, and that halved again. 427 00:23:10,784 --> 00:23:14,164 But, that's not actually, as far as I understand, a, it's not a very usual way. 428 00:23:14,204 --> 00:23:15,084 Not common at all, no. 429 00:23:15,124 --> 00:23:15,304 It's, 430 00:23:17,931 --> 00:23:20,111 obviously we, saw you guys through the fundraising. 431 00:23:20,191 --> 00:23:22,111 It was a, yeah, very focused list. 432 00:23:24,212 --> 00:23:27,331 short, sharp fundraising period, very concentrated list and target 433 00:23:27,371 --> 00:23:32,544 list of LPs and probably got, you to where you are Those, those investor 434 00:23:32,584 --> 00:23:35,904 conversations, we we talked a little bit about it while you were fundraising. 435 00:23:36,804 --> 00:23:37,484 What, were the challenges? 436 00:23:37,524 --> 00:23:40,704 W-were there in- the investors that didn't invest, was it a timing issue? 437 00:23:41,064 --> 00:23:43,504 were they… W-what were the kind of challenges, if you like? 438 00:23:43,574 --> 00:23:44,954 Or what were the things that people were saying? 439 00:23:45,444 --> 00:23:49,594 I don't wanna say saying no, but, what were the challenges along the way from 440 00:23:49,964 --> 00:23:51,544 yeah, launching to then first close? 441 00:23:53,084 --> 00:23:54,004 I think there's the intensity. 442 00:23:54,224 --> 00:23:56,704 everyone said that fundraising is very hard. 443 00:23:56,804 --> 00:23:59,164 I d-didn't appreciate even despite it being short, which 444 00:23:59,204 --> 00:24:00,684 is brilliant, it was, hard. 445 00:24:01,024 --> 00:24:03,604 and one of the advisors I know quite well in the corporate finance market, 446 00:24:03,884 --> 00:24:06,584 you'll know who this is, says, "I've got some good news and bad news. 447 00:24:07,084 --> 00:24:09,564 The good news is it's gonna be short, the bad news is it's gonna be painful." 448 00:24:10,064 --> 00:24:11,084 And that's exactly what it was. 449 00:24:11,744 --> 00:24:15,624 That drives a challenge because you've got to do seven Zoom calls a day. 450 00:24:16,204 --> 00:24:18,734 you've got to fly around the world, meet people, and you've got 451 00:24:18,744 --> 00:24:20,304 to build a relationship quickly. 452 00:24:20,324 --> 00:24:24,784 And that was hard because, face-to-face is better, but that's a lot of ground to 453 00:24:24,824 --> 00:24:27,264 cover, so Zoom's very useful these days. 454 00:24:27,364 --> 00:24:31,964 I'd say the volume of meetings combined with how quickly you've got to deliver 455 00:24:32,044 --> 00:24:34,344 a short, snappy story was hard. 456 00:24:35,604 --> 00:24:41,264 but it got easier as the sets quickly filtered into, "We understand you two, 457 00:24:41,424 --> 00:24:47,504 we like you, we believe you, and we want to learn more about your story." and, 458 00:24:47,564 --> 00:24:53,084 so it's almost a within the first hour you pretty much know, and most investors 459 00:24:53,104 --> 00:24:56,664 that progress past that, we had a feel that it wasn't right, but we obviously 460 00:24:56,684 --> 00:24:58,444 were working hard to, get both going. 461 00:24:58,574 --> 00:25:01,704 So we were lucky that we did progress with probably two and a 462 00:25:01,724 --> 00:25:03,524 half times the demand we, needed. 463 00:25:03,564 --> 00:25:08,124 And so the hard part then became actually we liked all the people that got that 464 00:25:08,204 --> 00:25:10,564 far to, as far as they wanting to invest. 465 00:25:10,584 --> 00:25:13,844 And so we had to lose some which, which came about naturally through 466 00:25:13,864 --> 00:25:15,364 the timetable being accelerated. 467 00:25:16,144 --> 00:25:17,324 we had to pare back. 468 00:25:17,684 --> 00:25:20,884 So I think the challenge was you never know what you're gonna get. 469 00:25:21,124 --> 00:25:23,544 You're trying to get as much demand as possible, and if it 470 00:25:23,564 --> 00:25:24,654 goes well, you get too much. 471 00:25:25,424 --> 00:25:27,944 But I, really want to stress that no matter what happened, 472 00:25:27,984 --> 00:25:29,724 we kept the fund size the same. 473 00:25:29,824 --> 00:25:33,244 I've seen a lot of strategies, both fundraising, but certainly as we 474 00:25:33,264 --> 00:25:37,304 know in the existing market, go out for a certain number, let's say 2 475 00:25:37,374 --> 00:25:39,924 billion, I don't know who this fund is, but, and then they, take four. 476 00:25:40,404 --> 00:25:43,664 But that's a strategy shift, yet it seems to be okay. 477 00:25:44,224 --> 00:25:48,924 And I'm not saying funds can't do that, but that level of scale 478 00:25:49,064 --> 00:25:53,303 means what you've put in the PPM is different to the market you're, in. 479 00:25:53,334 --> 00:25:54,754 A very different proposition, right? 480 00:25:55,084 --> 00:25:55,304 Yeah. 481 00:25:55,584 --> 00:25:58,244 so it's curious, and obviously it works 'cause people, the 482 00:25:58,304 --> 00:25:59,644 fees are bigger and that works. 483 00:25:59,724 --> 00:26:04,984 But actually, that shift drives a whole, I need to hire twice the team now, and 484 00:26:05,224 --> 00:26:06,344 you've got to build a different business. 485 00:26:06,404 --> 00:26:11,654 So for us, it was really important that we stuck to our knitting and, 486 00:26:12,544 --> 00:26:14,864 we were very clear with investors, no matter how well this fundraise 487 00:26:14,884 --> 00:26:16,574 goes, we're not raising more than 375. 488 00:26:17,203 --> 00:26:18,143 And we did that. 489 00:26:18,324 --> 00:26:22,443 So actually, I think that, that, conviction that we'd stay there was, 490 00:26:22,683 --> 00:26:26,463 well received and, I'm delighted to have such a wonderful set of, investors. 491 00:26:26,683 --> 00:26:29,624 I, must admit, when I, when we saw the investor demand, I was surprised 492 00:26:29,643 --> 00:26:30,763 that you didn't raise the hard cap. 493 00:26:31,104 --> 00:26:34,524 But like you say, I think staying disciplined, whether it's the 494 00:26:34,563 --> 00:26:37,383 number, bigger fund means you've gotta do more deals or bigger deals 495 00:26:37,423 --> 00:26:38,423 and suddenly you're drifting away. 496 00:26:38,444 --> 00:26:40,563 It's that almost mission creep, from what you said you're gonna 497 00:26:40,604 --> 00:26:41,643 set out to do at the start. 498 00:26:42,043 --> 00:26:44,483 Yeah, no, and we really believe in that. 499 00:26:44,683 --> 00:26:47,464 And, so it, it's that function we discussed earlier of we're 500 00:26:47,483 --> 00:26:52,583 not trying to create a 4 billion business within the next three years. 501 00:26:52,823 --> 00:26:56,284 doesn't mean we haven't ideas about growth and, bits and pieces, but 502 00:26:56,343 --> 00:26:59,624 actually we know this market, we know it works, and we wanna do that. 503 00:27:00,644 --> 00:27:05,383 I certainly don't beget anyone who can, raise a lot more than they 504 00:27:05,423 --> 00:27:08,104 set out to do, but you've then got to do a lot of mental math. 505 00:27:08,203 --> 00:27:11,523 So we were really pleased with that, and it's given us also 506 00:27:11,583 --> 00:27:13,283 good momentum with our investors. 507 00:27:13,624 --> 00:27:18,143 If we need to do other things, if we need co-invest, if we do, want to look at 508 00:27:18,163 --> 00:27:21,023 something different, which, we don't, but they're, there 'cause they know we'll, 509 00:27:21,063 --> 00:27:22,443 do what we say and we'll say what we do. 510 00:27:26,783 --> 00:27:29,783 Thinking back to the start, we've talked a little bit about what 511 00:27:29,823 --> 00:27:31,664 you've done and where you're going. 512 00:27:33,144 --> 00:27:37,084 What was one thing that you think that you set at the outset, one thing 513 00:27:37,143 --> 00:27:39,923 that you decided that you think will define Goldenpeak in the long term? 514 00:27:39,963 --> 00:27:44,204 If I had to pick one thing from today, what do you think it is that 515 00:27:44,224 --> 00:27:46,083 will define Goldenpeak as a business? 516 00:27:47,763 --> 00:27:48,123 Yeah. 517 00:27:49,523 --> 00:27:53,624 it's sort of part of our DNA, and it's really this sort of, It's on our 518 00:27:53,643 --> 00:27:55,204 website, so you'll be surprised to see. 519 00:27:55,283 --> 00:27:57,523 It's this authentic, ambitious, collaborative. 520 00:27:58,083 --> 00:28:00,283 everyone's got three words, and they usually involve integrity 521 00:28:00,384 --> 00:28:01,763 and something like trust. 522 00:28:01,904 --> 00:28:04,544 But we want our teams to be authentic people. 523 00:28:04,564 --> 00:28:08,103 We want them to be someone you can go, you-- I may or may not be best friends 524 00:28:08,143 --> 00:28:09,363 with you, but I believe what you tell me. 525 00:28:09,744 --> 00:28:12,003 You, do what you say." ambition. 526 00:28:12,183 --> 00:28:16,683 We want people to think, "How can we do this better, and really do something 527 00:28:16,743 --> 00:28:20,224 different?" And that will change, with AI, with all the things that come after AI. 528 00:28:20,283 --> 00:28:23,483 How can you be more ambitious for, the, relationships and teams you work with? 529 00:28:23,823 --> 00:28:24,643 Collaboration. 530 00:28:25,683 --> 00:28:29,403 everything's about working together, both as a team, in the business, 531 00:28:29,463 --> 00:28:30,683 but also with our management teams. 532 00:28:30,723 --> 00:28:34,464 And I, actually saw a quote from, Maya Angelou that I think sums 533 00:28:34,483 --> 00:28:37,284 it up best, and we probably gotta get this put in our reception. 534 00:28:37,323 --> 00:28:40,763 But effectively, "People will forget what you said, people will forget 535 00:28:40,784 --> 00:28:44,883 what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." And 536 00:28:44,903 --> 00:28:48,564 we will work through our investments in our teams where that's appropriate. 537 00:28:49,263 --> 00:28:52,743 if, we make people feel the wrong way, people remember that, and we may 538 00:28:52,784 --> 00:28:55,903 have made a good or bad investment, but ultimately it's that thing, and 539 00:28:55,924 --> 00:28:59,283 making them feel right and working with them, we find drives better returns. 540 00:29:00,363 --> 00:29:01,663 We'll get it put on a postcard for you. 541 00:29:01,863 --> 00:29:02,003 Yeah. 542 00:29:02,064 --> 00:29:02,743 Yeah, exactly. 543 00:29:05,023 --> 00:29:05,944 What are your non-negotiables? 544 00:29:07,372 --> 00:29:10,892 We've talked a lot about what you do and what you will do and the strategy. 545 00:29:11,572 --> 00:29:12,152 What, won't you do? 546 00:29:12,212 --> 00:29:13,262 What will you walk away from? 547 00:29:13,292 --> 00:29:16,152 What are the real non-negotiables for you? 548 00:29:17,972 --> 00:29:22,662 I think the, one, a very good founder I work with, he'll again know who he is, 549 00:29:23,052 --> 00:29:25,452 talked to me about the speed of trust. 550 00:29:26,192 --> 00:29:28,462 if you can't trust someone, just forget it. 551 00:29:28,582 --> 00:29:31,152 And the deals that I have worked on that have been difficult over the 552 00:29:31,212 --> 00:29:35,072 years have been where we've had stuff like the team are fit for purpose. 553 00:29:35,132 --> 00:29:39,532 You can trust them if they're, if they're economically aligned with you. 554 00:29:40,492 --> 00:29:42,532 There's always a problem when economics don't align. 555 00:29:42,592 --> 00:29:43,912 You've always got things happening in life. 556 00:29:44,132 --> 00:29:48,072 so for me, the 100% non-negotiable is if people can't work and trust 557 00:29:48,112 --> 00:29:49,252 each other, and that goes both ways. 558 00:29:49,612 --> 00:29:51,912 If you can't trust the investor behind you, you can't really grow 559 00:29:51,972 --> 00:29:53,412 a business 'cause you're always looking over your shoulder. 560 00:29:53,552 --> 00:29:56,212 So that's a definite non-negotiable. 561 00:29:57,532 --> 00:29:58,792 we talked about ambition. 562 00:29:58,932 --> 00:30:00,512 if people don't really want to do something. 563 00:30:00,552 --> 00:30:04,292 That doesn't mean working long hours, it means do you really wanna believe… 564 00:30:04,332 --> 00:30:05,572 So do you believe in your business? 565 00:30:06,192 --> 00:30:09,952 do you really see a way to, to grow and do you wanna work with us in 566 00:30:09,992 --> 00:30:11,532 that trusting way to, to do it? 567 00:30:11,872 --> 00:30:13,522 If you can't, it's not a problem for Goldenpeak. 568 00:30:13,812 --> 00:30:15,192 We don't have to work together. 569 00:30:16,192 --> 00:30:19,392 but if you feel that trust and collaboration, then let's go for it. 570 00:30:19,492 --> 00:30:21,032 But if, not, I think you have to walk away. 571 00:30:21,312 --> 00:30:21,512 Yes. 572 00:30:21,812 --> 00:30:23,692 That, must feed in a little bit to your hiring, right? 573 00:30:24,192 --> 00:30:28,212 if you don't, you kinda gotta g- hire the team that wants to do this, so that maybe 574 00:30:28,222 --> 00:30:29,412 a slightly more entrepreneurial team. 575 00:30:29,452 --> 00:30:32,372 It's not a team that's gonna go in and be one of a massive investment team like 576 00:30:32,412 --> 00:30:34,362 you get at some of the, bigger firms. 577 00:30:34,732 --> 00:30:37,732 I, assume you're hiring those that are, that A, you can trust, but B, 578 00:30:37,932 --> 00:30:42,832 that are really motivated and, yeah, looking to build something with you. 579 00:30:43,402 --> 00:30:45,832 I, think there's an important point in there, though. 580 00:30:45,862 --> 00:30:49,452 We- we're not looking, and never will do, look for some sort of discount. 581 00:30:49,652 --> 00:30:52,752 You're taking a risk and so you get paid less, but you've gotta go for it. 582 00:30:53,172 --> 00:30:57,682 We, are hiring the best at the best rates, but the reality is there's 583 00:30:57,772 --> 00:30:58,672 that sort of, "I'm gonna do it. 584 00:30:59,072 --> 00:31:03,412 I'm just gonna quit my job and go for this." The… And we have, ended many 585 00:31:03,452 --> 00:31:06,432 interviews, certainly mentally in the interview when they say, you've 586 00:31:06,452 --> 00:31:09,572 gotta compensate me for this," and, "It's very risky, so I need that." 587 00:31:10,232 --> 00:31:13,132 And it's basically in, in Leon and my mind, the minute that words get 588 00:31:13,172 --> 00:31:14,812 out of the, the interview's over. 589 00:31:14,842 --> 00:31:18,062 It's over, I've given the clues away, unfortunately now, but- … but it's that 590 00:31:18,092 --> 00:31:22,592 drive where people see an opportunity and that means they can relate that to the 591 00:31:22,632 --> 00:31:24,252 entrepreneurs and founders they work with. 592 00:31:24,292 --> 00:31:28,212 So yeah, it does, breed that and we've, we, we're really happy with 593 00:31:28,232 --> 00:31:29,232 the people that have joined us. 594 00:31:29,452 --> 00:31:32,292 They're, wonderful individuals and they've really frankly taken, have 595 00:31:32,332 --> 00:31:35,552 taken a risk, but I h- hope they feel already it's not, really a risk. 596 00:31:35,892 --> 00:31:36,942 That's your secret sauce then. 597 00:31:37,022 --> 00:31:39,722 Anybody looking for a job with Mark Williams needs to, not talk about 598 00:31:39,772 --> 00:31:40,692 their comp in their interview. 599 00:31:40,732 --> 00:31:43,032 Yeah, I know we've given that away, but yeah. 600 00:31:43,782 --> 00:31:45,012 We'll, we'll, s- find out one way or another. 601 00:31:46,832 --> 00:31:48,252 it's your name on the door now. 602 00:31:49,772 --> 00:31:50,312 what is it? 603 00:31:50,352 --> 00:31:51,272 What keeps you up at night? 604 00:31:51,792 --> 00:31:53,542 If… What are you going to bed worrying about? 605 00:31:54,132 --> 00:31:56,212 Yeah, the first thing is it's Goldenpeak on the door. 606 00:31:56,752 --> 00:31:57,872 It's not Mark or Leon. 607 00:31:57,912 --> 00:31:58,992 It's not our initials. 608 00:32:00,352 --> 00:32:05,712 it is about, finding value, and that's not in a discount bargain basement way. 609 00:32:05,772 --> 00:32:10,975 That's about- Finding the right teams who have the opportunity to, do things. 610 00:32:11,035 --> 00:32:12,315 That's the first thing that keeps me awake. 611 00:32:12,455 --> 00:32:13,535 Can we find enough stuff? 612 00:32:13,855 --> 00:32:16,515 We have a restless energy that, that always says, "Is there something 613 00:32:16,595 --> 00:32:18,895 good for, what's the next deal?" 614 00:32:20,015 --> 00:32:22,055 and we're not under pressure because we've got a great fund with great 615 00:32:22,075 --> 00:32:25,495 investors, but we're always trying to find another, opportunity. 616 00:32:26,015 --> 00:32:29,935 I think then it's, it's making sure we can unlock the value. 617 00:32:30,755 --> 00:32:32,755 we've got a value acceleration team. 618 00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:36,035 We have a lot of value acceleration experience, both on a sort of 619 00:32:36,115 --> 00:32:37,515 personal level, we can help you. 620 00:32:37,535 --> 00:32:38,775 We have great contact bases. 621 00:32:39,895 --> 00:32:43,495 on the commercial and pricing model, we work with a, part of our 622 00:32:43,555 --> 00:32:44,895 team who's got specialism in that. 623 00:32:45,355 --> 00:32:46,535 But we've gotta make it happen. 624 00:32:46,776 --> 00:32:48,835 None of this stuff happens for free. 625 00:32:49,115 --> 00:32:51,295 None of it happens if you're actually too aggressive. 626 00:32:51,416 --> 00:32:54,736 But that means our partners, I hope, are looking for us to bring 627 00:32:54,775 --> 00:32:59,175 that value, bring it daily, weekly, at the most appropriate level. 628 00:32:59,555 --> 00:33:03,795 And so it keeps me awake thinking, we've gotta make these, gotta make these 629 00:33:03,835 --> 00:33:07,855 partnerships really work and, excited to do that with our, first, investment. 630 00:33:08,736 --> 00:33:09,135 Very good. 631 00:33:10,615 --> 00:33:11,995 Mark, I'm conscious of time. 632 00:33:12,035 --> 00:33:14,635 I don't wanna keep you from a rainy evening here in London. 633 00:33:15,655 --> 00:33:17,695 But let me just close with this. 634 00:33:17,736 --> 00:33:22,415 If we are back here in five years' time, how will you know that 635 00:33:22,435 --> 00:33:23,456 you've been truly successful? 636 00:33:25,587 --> 00:33:29,827 I think it, it is a combination of both having a great time, 637 00:33:30,207 --> 00:33:32,488 investing well, and driving returns. 638 00:33:33,027 --> 00:33:36,327 we are investing pension fund money, endowments. 639 00:33:36,407 --> 00:33:38,187 These are people's, savings. 640 00:33:38,287 --> 00:33:41,107 We have got to make a return, but we've got to do that in the right way. 641 00:33:41,468 --> 00:33:45,928 And so for me, success will be, having a great team at Goldenpeak, 642 00:33:46,887 --> 00:33:52,008 seeing that team flourish, seeing a number of investments working. 643 00:33:52,027 --> 00:33:56,207 And then, and ultimately in, in today's world, it's always been returning capital. 644 00:33:57,247 --> 00:33:59,047 it's obviously a challenging industry right now. 645 00:33:59,787 --> 00:34:01,708 but also it- it's a fundamental. 646 00:34:01,987 --> 00:34:06,208 if it's your own money, you've got to work out how do you return that, that capital. 647 00:34:06,247 --> 00:34:09,167 And that drives us thinking, is there an innovative way to do this? 648 00:34:09,247 --> 00:34:12,227 Could we sell a minority stake to a trade investor? 649 00:34:12,247 --> 00:34:17,547 Could we, find a large cap PE firm who really wants to expand into the US? 650 00:34:18,127 --> 00:34:21,767 Find those innovative ways to, to exit businesses will, be part of our story. 651 00:34:21,807 --> 00:34:25,348 So I think having that great team and great reputation 652 00:34:25,627 --> 00:34:26,767 will, set us up for success. 653 00:34:27,907 --> 00:34:29,548 I look forward to seeing you back here in five years. 654 00:34:29,627 --> 00:34:30,368 Yeah, I would love to. 655 00:34:31,057 --> 00:34:31,947 Mark, thanks very much. 656 00:34:31,947 --> 00:34:32,987 I've really enjoyed our conversation. 657 00:34:33,327 --> 00:34:33,587 Pleasure. 658 00:34:33,607 --> 00:34:33,947 Thank you. 659 00:34:34,067 --> 00:34:34,487 Thank you, Mark. 660 00:34:45,788 --> 00:34:49,938 First Close is powered by Langham Hall, the award-winning fund services 661 00:34:49,938 --> 00:34:51,638 platform for emerging managers. 662 00:34:52,378 --> 00:34:55,638 For 20 years now, we have been supporting new managers as they 663 00:34:55,638 --> 00:34:59,588 build their businesses from day one, acting as a trusted advisor 664 00:34:59,608 --> 00:35:01,188 through first close and beyond. 665 00:35:01,778 --> 00:35:04,388 For more information, you can find us online at langhamhall.com.