Welcome to the Masterful Coach podcast with Molly Claire. If

you're a coach who's ready to impact more lives, make more money,

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place. Get the support you deserve as a female

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life. Are you in? Let's get started with your

host, bestselling author, and master life and business

coach, Molly Claire.

All right. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast,

Haley. Welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm stoked to be

here. This is so exciting for me because as I

told all of you and Haley as well when she came on here, I mean,

I love following you on Instagram. I cannot tell you how many times I have

sent my clients to your page to read. So any of you, if you

don't follow her, I know you'll have, you'll tell them where to find you,

and everything will be in the show notes. But truly, the

content that she puts out there is so impactful.

So I'm really excited to have you here, and let's just

dive in and you can share all your wisdom. I'm ready. Okay,

good. Okay, so, tell my listeners, what do you

do and why do you love it? Okay, so, I am

a coach. Surprise, surprise. And I work with folks on breaking the

people-pleasing pattern and mastering the art of

self-advocacy. Which, to me means not only setting

boundaries, which is such a big part of this, but speaking up about what we

need, asking people to meet us where we need to be met, and

designing our lives in a way that feels good to us. So

that's what I do as a coach. It's so powerful. And I know that

she's going to be sharing with you also that she has a book that is

up and coming, or out when this podcast airs. So all of

that will be in there. But what I love about the work that you do

is I feel like it takes into account

the reasons why it really is challenging for us to

advocate for ourselves and to speak up, because I think people

pleasing can have this, such a negative connotation, right? Or

can, we can kind of shame or blame ourselves for it, but there

are reasons behind it, and you speak to those. Oh, my God. It's so

important to understand that piece of the puzzle, because before we understand

where this pattern comes from, it's so easy to be so hard on

ourselves. I spent so many years being, like, looking at my friends who

effortlessly said no and spoke up and set boundaries. And I would watch

them just like, "How do you do this? Why is this so hard for me?"

But ultimately, people pleasing - I say this a lot in my posts - it's

really not about pleasing people. It's a misnomer. People pleasing

is about. It's how we learn to stay safe. It's an

outdated coping mechanism that at some point in the past kept us safe,

not just physically, necessarily, but emotionally, socially,

materially safe. And it takes a lot of time to learn that what

kept us safe in the past might be wreaking havoc on our lives in the

present. Yes. And I think, I know we'll speak to this much more, but I

just want to say that I know a lot of times for people that

struggle with setting boundaries, advocating for

themselves, standing up for what they need - not that I would ever fall into

any of these categories - I'm struggling with any of this ever, except most of

my life. But I think that, you know, as you

address those things, that I think it can be really

hard for us to feel like we're not being rude.

Right? How do we do this and still feel that we

are the kind, loving, empathetic human being that we want to be? And

I just, I think you address all of that so well. So, it's

tough, right? Because we don't want to be rude. And I often feel like

for the recovering people pleaser, our rude barometer

is slightly skewed. Like, we could set the

kindest, most gentle boundary. And inside we still feel like we're

being rude. So it takes some time to readjust that needle to

reflect reality and to remember that being clear, as Brene Brown says,

like, clear is kind. Right? Like, we help people out when we're direct

and clear about what we want. Yes. Yes. And I'd love

to know. I know you love what you do. Why? What is it about this

work that you love so much? God, I really

feel like it's the process of watching people

step out of lives that were designed for them and

beginning to feel confident that they can design their own lives on their own

terms. I think I felt this personally in my past when I was

people pleasing. I didn't feel like I really had a say in

the direction of my life. How I spent my time, what I gave, who I

gave to. It was all preordained because I said yes to

everything, because I didn't know how to say no. Yeah. And so in this work,

like, watching people, everything from, like, leaving unhealthy

relationships and finding love, leaving toxic work

environments and doing the things like- And being able to say, this doesn't work

for me. It's just so rewarding to watch people begin to

value themselves enough to make those decisions.

Oh, I love that. Valuing themselves enough. I mean, I can

for sure say that that's been a part of my experience. The more

I've given myself space to value who I am and know who I

am and connect, it gives you a little bit more of a foundation to

be able to advocate for what you want in your life. For sure.

100%. I often feel that's, like, the underspoken base level

of all of this is like, it's going to be really hard to express your

needs or set a boundary if deep down you don't believe you're

worthy of it. And so that's where I think, for many of us, this work

gets really deep. Yes. Okay.

So what I want to dive into today is something that I know

is really a specialty for you, which is bringing some of these

concrete concepts and talking about the

nuances. Right. And so I'm just going to hit on a couple of

these that I know are covered in your book. Let's talk a little bit

about kindness and people pleasing. Are they the same? Are

they different? Tell us about them. Yes. This is, like,

one of my favorite juicy things. Because just like you said earlier, right, when we

stop people pleasing, everyone's like, "Oh, but I'm going to be rude. I'm going to

be mean." But kindness and people pleasing are not the same.

And I think there are some really key reasons that are key

things that distinguish the two. Let's start with people pleasing, because that's the one that

a lot of us are coming from. Yeah, truly, like, with people pleasing, you

can tell you're people pleasing because there are a couple different attitudes that

underlie people pleasing. One of the first ones is

a sense of obligation. It's not like you feel you have choices. It's

like I'm giving you this or saying yes, because I feel like I have

to. And that's a very different experience from giving, from just the goodness

of our hearts. Mm hmm. Yeah. Another key attitude

is transactionality. So I'm giving you

this so that you give me something back. And the giving

back isn't always a material thing. Right. But it might be, "I'm giving you

this so that you keep me safe. I'm giving you this so that you're nice

to me. I'm giving you this so that you tell me I belong."

So there's sort of, like, this transactional mentality that underlies people

pleasing. Even if we're not being like totally honest with ourselves about when it's

happening, that's often at play, right? And I think a lot, I

mean, most people don't even realize this is happening, right? This is the

way we've always operated or the way that we were taught to

operate and what we've seen. And so I think it's important, like, as

all of you are listening to this, to be kind of

open minded to seeing, does any of this possibly

exist for you? Does this resonate even if you haven't been aware of it? Because

it's not like we walk around thinking these things consciously, right,

when we're engaging in people pleasing. That's so- I love that you said that

and I think that's critical. And like we said earlier, people pleasing is how we

learn to stay safe. I know for me, like, I was bullied so much as

a kid. And so for me, I think a lot of my people pleasing comes

from, "Oh, I'll shape shift and be a chameleon and give you what you want

so that I have social belonging." And what could be a more normal thing to

need? I think the only, the problem is that when you play

these behaviors out to their natural conclusion, even if we're not doing them

maliciously, it often means we end up in relationships where we're over giving,

we're resentful, and people don't feel like they really know us because we

haven't been honest about our needs and our limits.

It's almost like, as you were talking, I think about kind of

not even existing in the relationship, right? Like

there's no space for you when you're people pleasing. And I think, and

I'm sure you're going to speak to this, but I know one of the things

that I have heard you talk about in relation to people pleasing

is the self abandonment, which is really the worst part

of it for me. It's really

insidious. I think we leave ourselves behind

all the time. And what I've noticed in my work with people pleasers,

what's interesting is like, yes, in our relationships with other people,

we over given self sacrifice. But many people pleasers, even when

we are alone with only ourselves, we

leave ourselves behind and we don't tend to ourselves or take our needs

seriously. And so self abandonment is almost like

the even deeper level of what's often at play here.

And I want to just pause. So all of you listening, you can think about

this, of course, for yourself in your own life and

think about how this impacts your clients, how this shows up for

your clients. Because, I mean, people pleasing, it's- some people

certainly fall more in the category of people pleasers, if we want to say

that, right, where it's more of a pattern or habit. But, I mean, it's pretty

common across the board. It sure is. And in certain

settings, there are real rewards for it. Right? Like, I work with

so many self employed people, coaches, therapists, who,

yeah, they say yes and over give, but it gets them business and it gets

them money. And so that's a wild thing, too, is in the people pleasing

journey. At a certain point, many of us realize, "Okay, I may be given external

rewards for this behavior, but internally,

am I in my integrity? Does this feel good? Am I balanced?"And

so, so much of this work, I often use the word homecoming to

describe breaking from people pleasing. We need to come home to ourselves and value

what's in our home inside.

And I think from there, just as you were talking, I think that's where we

can make clean decisions about things, right? About the ways we

do want to give or offer or serve or whatever it is.

Because I think you can do. You could do the same action, right?

You could do the same thing in terms of what you're giving and

in one energy. You can do it from a place of not being

home, as you say. Right. And self abandoning and not even really

knowing your own boundaries or limits or why you're behaving that way. And

you can also do those same actions from a place of being home, of

being grounded. And it's just. It's completely different.

Yes. That's the wild thing, is that no single

action is intrinsically people pleasing.

It's all about the mentality and the reason

why we are doing it. There are some people, some of the most generous

people I know are not people pleasers. They feel very comfortable within themselves,

and they're just generous and they love to give. And the

key is they feel like they have a choice and they

choose to give. Whereas when we're people pleasing, we don't feel like we have a

choice. We're giving because it's compulsory and because we're afraid.

And that is the difference. Such a huge difference.

Yes. So people pleasing and. Yeah. Is there anything

else you wanted to point out about the people pleasing? Because I almost feel like

it's like you're talking about people pleasing and already contrasting it with

kindness. But I don't want to skip over this. That's like, so

many different colors of it. I think really, like, with kindness, that's really

the fundamental aspect of it, is there's choice. We feel like we have a choice

and we're choosing to give. It stems from a place of sort of open

hearted goodwill. We're not necessarily expecting anything in

return. And when we've been giving from a place of

kindness, we don't usually feel resentful afterwards.

Whereas when we've been giving from people pleasing, we feel burnt out, exhausted,

resentful, and secretly wishing we'd gotten more in return for what we

gave. So you can see, right, they're pretty different. Yes.

And I think the other thing that came to my mind is,

in people pleasing, we can often feel frustrated with other

people. Yes. Right. Which is

not- when I'm, when I'm feeling kindness towards someone, I'm typically not

frustrated with them. But when we're in people pleasing, we

are kind of, like you said, shape shifting or taking

ourselves out of the equation or doing something to get someone else

to be or do a certain thing. Right. And then we're

frustrated with them. And this is where, this is a very

polarizing statement because we don't people please consciously

oftentimes. But I do think this is where it makes just logical sense that

oftentimes people pleasing is a veiled and unconscious form of trying to control

other people. Not control in a malicious way, not cause we're trying to

harm them, but because we're trying to get desired outcomes from

other people. And so we think if I just shape shift and act in this

particular way and give this amount, I will get to this magic

destination where they finally give me what I need or they finally do what

I need. And so it's kind of like an

outdated, controlling pattern. Yeah. And it's like, I mean,

that happens, right? When our sense of, like, our locus of

control is outside of us. Whereas because we just haven't learned yet, right,

to be strong and confident and empowered enough to create what we

want in our life and relationships without relying on moving the

chess pieces of everyone around us. Oh, my God. That so

beautifully said. I love the chess and the locus of control piece is really

it, like, for people pleasers. As a general rule, our locus of control

is not inside, it's outside. And so we're constantly

reaching outside of ourselves to construct the situations we want.

Instead of just saying, like, "What do I want to bring into this world? What

are my non negotiables? How will I express this?"

Yes. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about

influence, having influence over people versus

trying to control them, because we've kind of already talked a little bit about this.

Yeah, we're, like, veering into this territory, and this is a tough one. And I

just want to encourage listeners, like, control is such a- like, it's a

mean word. Like, we say that and we don't want to associate with that word

because it sounds icky and gross. And what I want to say is, again, this

isn't even necessarily, like, a conscious pattern. It's just how we've learned to stay

safe. But generally speaking, something we do need

to learn how to do as people pleasers is give ourselves permission to

influence others in a direct way. What I mean by that

is clearly expressing what we need from people,

asking people to meet our needs, being clear and

direct in our relationships so that those relationships

have a chance to be what we need. The problem is when we veer into

controlling territory, which often involves

withholding information or being dishonest or

misleading in order to get someone to do the

outcome that we want. And you can kind of see the difference, right. Like, both

are strategies of getting what we want from people, but in one way, it's clear

and direct and in our power, and in the other vein, in the control vein,

we're shapeshifting. We're being dishonest. We're not clear about our limits.

We self abandon to get other people to give us what we

want from them. And it kind of sucks because then they don't get all the

information they need about who we are and whether this relationship

is a good fit for them within our boundaries.

Yeah. Yeah. And as you were talking about

influence, I was just thinking about how, how

difficult it can be. I know many of you listening relate

to this to some degree, that it can

be difficult to ask for what we want, ask

for a need or a desire in a relationship,

because we've just opened the door to

risking an answer that we don't like, someone

who's not interested or able to fill a need

or a want, and that's vulnerable. So I think that it sounds

good in theory, right, to be willing to

ask for things and to be clear and direct. And

I think it's that, that vulnerability that can make it

a little bit tricky and challenging, especially when it's a new practice.

It can be so vulnerable just to ask for what we need.

I actually think a lot of us skip that step entirely because of how

vulnerable it is. We often think, I don't know if you fell into this, but

for so much of my life, I was like, "They should just know. Like, they

should just know that I need to be loved like this. They should just know

that I'm overwhelmed and need help." You know, and it's a really normal

pattern to fall into. But what helps me and what helps

my clients is remembering that everyone has like a different- think of the

love languages, for example. Right. People show love in different ways. People

show care. People have different temperaments and different sensitivities and

trauma histories, et cetera. So people aren't going to show love

and care in the same ways that we do. And the only way we can

be certain that they know what we need is if we ask. It's

really just a pragmatic consideration. If we don't tell them, they won't necessarily

know. Yes, and I want to say something to

those of you listening that follow me, and especially the

cognitive model and even my master coach training students

speaking to this idea that sometimes, this is a little bit of a tangent, but

I think we're speaking to is that, you know, sometimes

we can learn this idea that in relationships we don't want to have

a manual for someone or try to control someone.

And so therefore, sometimes we can mistakenly use

that idea to just close off from wanting

or needing anything. And we go to this place of hyper independence or

counter dependence. And I just want to open up this idea

that just because we are letting go

of controlling someone doesn't mean there isn't

a healthy, even if sometimes uncomfortable, space where

we are still allowing ourselves to have needs and wants and

to ask for them. And I think that truly is the place of health

and growth in a relationship, but it's just something that needs to be

learned. So I just wanted to mention that to my listeners. So. And of

course, totally add. Yeah, well, I just like to remember that when we

step into that influence, the healthy influence as people pleasers,

sometimes we forget, like, they're allowed to say no. And that's what makes

influence. Influence is like we're giving them information, we're

presenting ourselves, and then they have a choice. Right. Whereas with

control, people don't get the choice because we're not giving them all the

information. So it really is, it's a difference.

Yes. Yes. And I think that, and I know you're going to share

about your book and then also you have such great workshops that you

do. And the one that I went to recently

was, was also kind of speaking to

this idea that - and I probably won't say

this in the most articulate way, but you can kind of add

to it and clean this up for me - but kind of this idea

that as we look at relationships, we can

also choose to which degree we want to be vulnerable or ask for

things. Right. Because we've also sometimes learned that certain

relationships. I guess I'll just say this for me. Certain

relationships offer some things, but just not others. So we

won't necessarily expect everything from every

relationship. Right. And it's really healthy

to have, like, differing, you know, different concentric circles

of relationship, people who are closer. And it's okay. I

think something I think about, which kind of gets us into this dialogue

about when should we ask for things versus when should we just know that maybe

it's time to take some space or set a boundary. For me, my favorite sort

of clarifying question in that space is, like, if you've asked for something

or you can tell a relationship isn't meeting a particular need, you can

just ask yourself, "Okay, how close and connected am I willing

to be to person x if they can't meet my need

for insert need here?" Emotional intimacy,

curiosity, financial, like, whatever it is for you. And

that doesn't mean we need to cut it off entirely, but it does mean that

we have a say in the terms of

engagement for our relationship. Yes. I mean,

that's such an important thing, because we're not automatically

closing off from people. Right. And not wanting to have needs, but we're

also aware of the times and ways we want to ask for

things and when we may want to put a certain

relationship in a category, that means we don't

ask for much in that space. Yeah,

100%. Especially if we've made lots of requests in the past and they haven't

gone well. Right. It's important that we learn from those experiences. And instead of

asking, asking, asking, we say, okay, I have evidence now that this doesn't work.

So what's in my control from here? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about boundaries

versus requests. Because I know you, it feels like all these are just,

like, working together. One is rolling right into the

next. We're hitting all these good topics. So fluid. But, yeah, I

mean, in the simplest sense, I often feel like we confuse boundaries

and requests, or we use the word boundaries to describe

everything, when in fact, they're a little different. So the

simplest way I can put this is when we make requests of

people, we ask them to change. We ask them to meet our needs.

We are being vulnerable, just like you said, and putting ourselves out there and

sort of saying, hey, can you do this? You know, requests are great because

they give other people the chance to know what we need, and they're also

unenforceable. Right? So I can ask you, but you can

say no, or you can get mad, or you can, you know, there are so

many outcomes at play. I often think requests

in healthy relationships, in relationships where there's a degree of safety and

trust, requests are a really good first step

when you have an unmet need, because it helps us from falling

into that, like, they should just know category.

And after a certain point, just like you said, some relationships

aren't capable of meeting all of our needs. Or

sometimes relationships are unhealthy or have unhealthy dynamics. And it's up

to us to know when we can, when it's important to remove ourselves from

them. So boundaries are how we take space,

distance, or time in relationships

that maybe don't meet our needs fully. And so

ultimately, boundaries are not tools to get more of

something from someone. Boundaries are all about

us writing and setting our terms of engagement for these

relationships, what we will and will not do, how we will and will not

participate in them. And so much of, I

mean, boundaries are an internal process,

right? I mean, when I think about most of the

boundaries that I set for myself and in my life and relationships, most

people aren't even aware of those because it's just something I

manage internally as far as how I spend my time or engage.

Right? Totally. They're heavily an internal process. And

maybe we communicate. Like, maybe we say, like, "Oh, like, Bob, I can only

get together with you once a month. I know we used to do every

week." But sometimes our boundaries aren't even communicated. It's just a shift

in how we relate to other people inside. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love that. Okay, any. Anything else with regard to

boundaries and requests, worth kind of

clarifying? I think just the last thing I'll say on that is

that, um. Yeah, again, like, I recommend starting with requests and relationships

where there's trust, but careful not to fall into what I call the cycle of

endless requests. Which is where this happens a lot in romantic

partnerships. But of course, all relationships, family, too, where we wish so

desperately for the other person to just treat us better that we ask and we

ask and we ask and we ask.And at a certain point, it's important

for us to recognize that asking doesn't necessitate change

and that at a certain point, we need to look at the evidence before us

and say, okay, they can't or won't meet this need. So

from here, I need to decide how close and connected I'm willing to be with

them. And often there's grief in the process of boundary setting because

it requires that we acknowledge, "Oh, they're not changing.

And so I need to change how I relate to them." So just, I guess

the last thing would be normalizing. Sometimes there's a lot of grief in moving from

a request into a boundary. Yes. And I think that, I

know I can say personally, that that's

oftentimes why we put off setting boundaries. Right.

Or making changes in a relationship that isn't working

for whatever reason, because there is going to be a grief.

Right. There's a loss and a sadness of what has been or what you

hoped for or wanted to be different. And

so, yeah, I think just acknowledging that and

knowing for all of you, and, of course, for your clients as well, that when

we do take those steps to set boundaries or

change relationships or release relationships, whatever it may

be, that it's normal to have a lot of feelings and making space for

them is so important. Yeah. They're not a sign

that you've done anything wrong or that you're on the wrong track. It's just I

think of those big emotions as growing pains. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. This has been such a great

conversation. So in just a minute I'll have you say any, you

know, any final thoughts and, of course, where everyone can find you.

But I just, I highly recommend that you all follow her on

Instagram. Definitely get your hands on her book,

and really understand the work that she's doing,

because I am certain that it will help all of you

personally. And for sure, it's also going to equip you

to just be better prepared to serve your clients, too.

All right, Haley, any. Anything else you want to share or tell everyone

where they can find you? Oh, no. Just such a great chat. And I

love spitballing on this stuff, but, yeah, this stuff, I dive so deep into

these nuances and, like, the process of setting boundaries, how to

work with those growing pains, all of it in my book called

Stop People Pleasing and Find Your Power. And it comes out with Simon and

Schuster on May 14.So snag it. I'm excited

about it. It's been like a labor of love, you know?

Yeah. And then in terms of my workshops, which offer

a really cool, like, educational component to this work or just working one

on one with clients, you can find all that good stuff at hayleymcgee.com.

Perfect. Yeah. And your workshops, I know you offer a few different ones, and they're

very interactive. It's a, it's a really good experience. So if any

of you are wanting to dive deeper on all of this, that would be a

great step, too. So. All right. Thank

you so much for being here. It's been amazing. Thank you so much

for having me. This was rad. Thanks. Okay. Bye, everyone.

I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to

the Masterful coach podcast. Are you ready to build your

amazing business with Molly as your coach? Check out

www.mollyclair.com to find

out about masterful coach foundations and the ten k

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