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I mean,
we have been in different situations

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in Anabaptist churches
where we've been hurt.

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But we if we really believe this
and we do,

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we there's no, we're going to be
in an Anabaptist church somewhere

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because our doctrine
and our beliefs are Anabaptist.

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And so I think that's been part
of the longevity of our journey, is that

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we felt like we're going to make it work
because this is what we believe.

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Jeff and

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Deana, welcome
to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.

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This is this is interesting.

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So I really enjoy getting people's
stories, on this podcast.

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And I know you all have quite the story
of different

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church backgrounds and religious settings,
and it's, yeah,

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we're going to capture some of that today
and, and see if there's some lessons

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we can learn and pieces that I think
will be helpful to our audience as well.

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So let me just start
with the first question.

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Tell me about your religious upbringing.

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Were either of ya’ll part of a church
growing up.

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I grew up methodist.

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And,

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was probably there until we got married.

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And so

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I was sprinkled as an infant.

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And then in the sixth grade,
I went through a confirmation class

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and, I'm pretty sure I heard the gospel

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there, and I was encouraged
to read the Bible.

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So I started reading the Bible
through, in about the sixth grade.

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I feel like, in my upbringing,
it was nominal.

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I feel like it was a nominal
Christian home.

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I have wonderful parents,
and they were a blessing to me,

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but I think it was pretty much for us
as a family.

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A Sunday thing.

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I do remember

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feeling like as a child I knew God
and I knew Christ before I was saved

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and, had a true relationship
as a child would.

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And, I became saved in high school,

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I realized that I needed to ask God
to save me through Christ.

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And as I said, we were
I was Methodist until we got married.

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And then for a while.

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Yeah. And what about you, Deana?

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I would have grown up
Catholic, and I would have been

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baptized and sprinkled and confirmed
and confessed and everything.

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And I'm very thankful.

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It was a good background.

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I appreciated that respect
that I learned there.

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And I'm so thankful
that my parents took us to church,

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when I would have gotten to be around
college, my parents would have switched

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to a more of an evangelical background,

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and I would have delved into that a bit.

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And then before we were married,

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I would have started to
I got a new job and moved to a new city.

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And I found, a good church there.

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It was a kind of like a Southern Baptist

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church, and I would have been baptized
as an adult there.

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So we we both would have grown up
in Christian homes.

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I would have heard the gospel

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from my mother actually, very clearly 
when I was, I think about seven years old.

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Okay. So so both of y'all would you.

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So you're saying coming to faith,
you said in high school, right.

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And then you'd been,
maybe a little later.

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You're saying it's something like that.

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Okay, so when we'd been

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talking before we, we'd scheduled this,
I was getting a little bit of your story.

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And the piece that stuck out to me is.

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It sounds like you spent a lot of time

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investigating different denominations
or different church,

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environments that you were part of.

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And, like,
I like to hear some of that journey.

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I know it's a
there's probably a lot of pieces there.

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So whatever you, you would,
you'd care to share.

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But, one of the things with this podcast
is we hear from a lot of people,

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you know, from around the world,
and a lot of them are on a journey.

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You know, I'm trying to find a community
to connect with,

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and I'm trying to figure out this thing,
this, this church thing.

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How do I find like minded believers?

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And that's a real challenge.

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You know, that that can
that can be difficult.

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And so, yeah.

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What was your
experience with that process?

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So I, I loved the Methodist Church.

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I still have fond memories of it.

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I felt in college

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like the Methodist Church as a whole

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was embracing some things
that I didn't think were biblical.

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I was not super pious.

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I think I'm still not super pious.

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There was just things

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that they were doing that
I thought were where I was at that point.

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Like I said, unbiblical
and I was unsure of the direction.

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And so we got married
in the Methodist church

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and were there for a few years
after marriage,

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and it just didn't seem like for

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us, a sustainable setting.

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And so we went to
evangelical type of churches.

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I think we would have gone back and forth

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between Baptists
and just evangelical non-denom churches.

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And when I was getting my master's

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and our background, everything
so much around our professions, in Dallas,

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we found a, evangelical church
in Dallas, Texas.

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I was going to Southern Methodist
University

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to study music,
and we became members there.

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And that was where I got
my first believer's baptism, was there.

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And so we were really happy, I think

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probably for 15 years after that,
in those kind of settings.

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We spent some time,
quite a few years in Grand Rapids,

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Michigan, which and we moved there
for professional reasons.

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In a GARB church, what is that,

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General Assembly of regular
Baptist churches is what that was.

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And we loved it.
It was quite conservative.

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And, it was a blessing,
you know, for us for that time. So

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so, Jeff, you're

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describing like these different parts
of the journey and different places.

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You know, it sounds like
y'all moved around some, so yeah.

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What what was some of your journey through
that, through that process as well?

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Like what
were you experiencing in this time?

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Well, first of all,
it's like seven years of stuff.

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And so I don't even know where to kind
of start wading through it, but I'll try,

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I think when we were homeschooling.

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And so part of it
was, I remember we were reading one time

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about other cultures and, it was these
people in Africa I believe it was anyway.

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But they like, you know, put the things
with their ears, like hung down really low

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and they put all the beads and, like,
stretched their necks and everything.

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And, we appreciate that, that cultures,

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you know, they're beautiful parts
of all the different cultures anyway.

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But I just said I thought something
like, well, that's really barbaric,

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you know, that to, you know, to do that,
that, you know, that's their culture.

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But, you know, and then I realized, well,

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I've got metal hanging out of my ears
and I've got necklaces and things.

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And I was like, well.

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And so just kind of like, honestly,
just from that chapter

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we read in the social studies
book, whatever,

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I just kind of start thinking about, well,
maybe I don't want to do this anymore.

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I don't know, it just started like
in a lot of little ways like that.

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We were in church one Sunday and,

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an American flag and the, you know,
rifles and sabers, the swords and guns

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and things, came down and we all sang
Battle Hymn of the Republic, I think.

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And then, a woman
whose father was a veteran.

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And we're very thankful.

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We love our country.

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We're very thankful
for all the sacrifices that people made.

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But there was a, you know, everybody
clap for the veterans and whatever.

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And I just felt like
I came to church to worship God.

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I didn't come here to worship my country.

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I'm very thankful for my country.

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But that's not why I'm in church.

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That was part of it.

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One of our

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dear friends, a couple of em
actually got divorced and remarried.

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And again,
we were searching the scriptures,

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asking our ministers, like,
what's the doctrine with this?

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Because it just seemed

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just didn't seem right. And,

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they ended up like coming to church
with their other spouses,

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and it just
it just seemed so mixed up and weird.

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It does feel kind of bizarre.

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So we we were just
we were searching the scriptures

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and trying to figure out what what does
God's Word say about this

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And if you could summarize
through this process,

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what did you all feel like
you were searching for.

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I feel, to be totally honest,
maybe we weren't searching that.

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Maybe God was leading, 
many of these convictions,

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including the veiling
that you had talked about were,

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shamefully to me, Deena
was having the convictions before I was.

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And so I don't feel like we were purposely
saying we need to search for something.

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I feel like God was showing Deena things
before me.

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And, one of those things,
the veiling frustrated me.

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I wasn't convicted of it at all.

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But we would ask our people,
and a lot of them were very educated.

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We were close to a,

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high profile

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seminary, and so they were very well
versed in the scriptures.

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And I ask a about the
the First Corinthians,

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you know, talking about the veiling.

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And I got the answer

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about the the prostitutes in Corinth,
and they really couldn't say why

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we don't do it except for the that answer
that it was a cultural thing back then.

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And, I later found out that that
that reason and that that story

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about the prostitutes in Corinth
actually is nowhere

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recorded in a secular way
or in a historic way.

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Anyway, it's something that they said
and that frustrated me

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that they couldn't give a good answer
even though I wasn't there yet.

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So what do you think about searching?

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Were you searching?

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One of our ministers

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one time said, like you were walking
in all the light that you had.

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And I did feel that way,
that whenever we would read something else

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or study something else and think, well,

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maybe we think this or whatever,
I think that was.

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Yeah, I wouldn't say
we were necessarily searching.

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We were just kind of starting to feel like

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our beliefs
aren't fitting in quite as well anymore.

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The more we learned
and researched and studied and.

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Yeah, So maybe searching
may not be quite the right word but,

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but journey definitely
seems like the word right where you're,

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like you said walking in,
but at least the light you have

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at the moment, you know,

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and you're and you're learning more
and you're asking questions and things.

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so through this process.

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So it sounds like there was
a number of things happening to here.

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I mean, you're you're in various
different churches.

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You mentioned some things
that were painful and like, oh, I'm

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not sure about that, you know,
and then the part on the, head covering,

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at what point do the Anabaptists
come into the picture here?

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Like, where did you hear about most,
you know, Amish or Mennonites, whatever.

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You know, it's easy.

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00:10:49,565 --> 00:10:51,734
I guess you can bump into that
different places.

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But where did that enter the story?

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I think at first all we knew

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were Amish, like, you know, you've seen
pictures of them or books or something.

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And obviously it was a cultural thing.

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00:11:05,956 --> 00:11:06,374
Yeah.

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00:11:06,374 --> 00:11:10,044
And I think we like,
I know looked at like that one time, like

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not not because of we never thought
we would ever be anything like this.

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We just and it was like, oh,
they speak German.

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00:11:18,094 --> 00:11:20,930
Well, we're out there, you know, and,

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you know, how could anybody ever go
be a part of that?

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You have to learn
a whole different language or whatever.

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And that was like, oh, they drive

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horse and buggies and and Jeff's
allergic to horses, so we can't hear.

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so this was not going to be
much of an option.

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00:11:32,191 --> 00:11:32,983
Okay. No.

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00:11:32,983 --> 00:11:35,528
And I and I'm like
I can't live without air conditioning.

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But just out of kind of
just out of curiosity and honestly,

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it was like a vacation thing, like, it's
we had young children.

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There was nothing offensive, you know,
you can like, whatever.

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Go and and,
I think we went down to Goshen to go.

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00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,128
We had an antique mall,
to be fair to our people,

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I mean, we just did go down to Goshen,
Indiana to look at the Amish that.

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Yeah, we get so frustrated now.

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And like in Lancaster County,

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00:12:00,761 --> 00:12:03,556
when these people drive so slow
and they want to look at the Amish,

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00:12:03,556 --> 00:12:08,102
and we've seen comments on social media
about how somebody saw

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00:12:08,102 --> 00:12:12,523
an Amish person's laundry
and you know, how mystical that is.

234
00:12:12,940 --> 00:12:16,193
And so it really was us.

235
00:12:16,193 --> 00:12:18,738
And we love the Anabaptists
and what it stands for.

236
00:12:18,738 --> 00:12:22,992
But we were totally those people
that would go down to Indiana

237
00:12:22,992 --> 00:12:27,246
to look at Amish, kind of that
almost like intrigued, touristy type

238
00:12:28,247 --> 00:12:30,708
or, as a curiosity maybe Yeah.

239
00:12:30,708 --> 00:12:33,836
But I do think there was an attraction
to something that was to

240
00:12:33,836 --> 00:12:36,839
us looked more biblical.

241
00:12:37,131 --> 00:12:40,968
Not as you know, that
they were doing things that we weren't.

242
00:12:41,093 --> 00:12:45,890
Why did they do them and
what was the reasoning behind all of that?

243
00:12:46,515 --> 00:12:48,350
And again, not necessarily
that we were just searching.

244
00:12:48,350 --> 00:12:50,352
It was just like, well, what is this
and what is this?

245
00:12:50,352 --> 00:12:52,396
And feeling a little bit pushed out?

246
00:12:52,396 --> 00:12:55,399
Maybe we don't fit as well here anymore.

247
00:12:56,233 --> 00:12:57,234
Where would we fit?

248
00:12:57,234 --> 00:12:59,904
You know,
just kind of looking around a little bit,

249
00:12:59,904 --> 00:13:03,324
again, kind of that journey of trying
to find a, a place,

250
00:13:03,741 --> 00:13:06,660
you know, a place to plug into, perhaps

251
00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:07,536
not yet.

252
00:13:07,536 --> 00:13:08,120
Not yet.

253
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,706
You have to tell them about the
the homeschool show.

254
00:13:10,706 --> 00:13:13,709
A big part of our journey was
we were homeschooling.

255
00:13:14,001 --> 00:13:17,379
And so through that, we came into contact
with a lot of wonderful people.

256
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,007
And so one of the band groups
I was teaching,

257
00:13:20,007 --> 00:13:22,343
we had homeschool band
with like a thousand people in it,

258
00:13:22,343 --> 00:13:26,305
and we were performing
at a homeschool convention thing.

259
00:13:26,305 --> 00:13:28,140
And so I was there and I would always go

260
00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:30,142
look at the books and all that
because I was homeschooling,

261
00:13:30,142 --> 00:13:32,895
but there was a family there,
and they were selling harps,

262
00:13:32,895 --> 00:13:36,023
and I played harp some in college,
but I did not own a big harp.

263
00:13:36,232 --> 00:13:38,025
So they had these smaller harps,
and I was like,

264
00:13:38,025 --> 00:13:39,693
oh, well, maybe
I could get one of those or whatever.

265
00:13:39,693 --> 00:13:44,615
So I picked up a little pamphlet thing,
and honestly, I stuck it in a drawer

266
00:13:44,865 --> 00:13:45,658
for five years.

267
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:49,203
It was seriously,
it was just sitting there for five years.

268
00:13:49,203 --> 00:13:51,872
and again, we did this whole long process.

269
00:13:51,872 --> 00:13:56,293
So I think it was five years later,
Jeff decided that he

270
00:13:56,377 --> 00:14:00,381
he was working at a school,
spending a lot of hours.

271
00:14:00,381 --> 00:14:02,675
I was home homeschooling five children.

272
00:14:02,675 --> 00:14:05,261
He was working 70, 80, 80 hours a week.

273
00:14:05,261 --> 00:14:05,845
And we were like,

274
00:14:05,845 --> 00:14:09,932
this is not this is not, you know,
we have two different lifestyles.

275
00:14:09,932 --> 00:14:12,893
And we didn't want our family to be that.
We wanted to be closer.

276
00:14:12,893 --> 00:14:16,897
And so, he resigned from his teaching
position and we moved to be the family.

277
00:14:16,897 --> 00:14:20,276
We moved out of state just to be
with our family and kind of regroup.

278
00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:24,530
And so when we were going through
that process is when I decided

279
00:14:24,655 --> 00:14:25,573
I'm going to order a harp.

280
00:14:25,573 --> 00:14:28,576
So I pulled the thing out of the drawer
after five years, and I ordered a harp.

281
00:14:28,826 --> 00:14:30,411
So we moved down there.

282
00:14:30,411 --> 00:14:33,956
And at that point, we were just visiting

283
00:14:34,498 --> 00:14:37,042
any kind of a church
that we thought might work.

284
00:14:37,042 --> 00:14:39,420
We tried everything.

285
00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:42,715
I mean, we were we were pretty convinced
that it was in North Carolina.

286
00:14:42,715 --> 00:14:43,549
That's where I was born.

287
00:14:43,549 --> 00:14:46,510
And we had always wanted to live there.

288
00:14:46,510 --> 00:14:50,389
And, we were sure we were going to find a
just this awesome Bible Belt

289
00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:52,224
Southern Baptist Church

290
00:14:52,224 --> 00:14:56,061
with the children's ministries
and great music and so,

291
00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,607
just to interject that we weren't sure
we were going to be able to be plugged

292
00:14:59,607 --> 00:15:03,944
in quickly with another church,
you know, of that brand that fit

293
00:15:03,944 --> 00:15:06,947
a little bit more
where we were now with our convictions

294
00:15:07,281 --> 00:15:10,159
and so we couldn't.

295
00:15:10,159 --> 00:15:13,162
And in the meantime,
I called this family to tell them,

296
00:15:13,162 --> 00:15:15,372
my harp wasn't quite ready yet,
but it was almost ready.

297
00:15:15,372 --> 00:15:16,790
So I said, oh, well, hey,
when you send it,

298
00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:21,128
please send it to this new address
because we moved.

299
00:15:21,879 --> 00:15:25,883
And then the the dad that made the harp
sort of said, well do you have

300
00:15:25,883 --> 00:15:29,929
oh you moved, do you have a church
down there that was like, no.

301
00:15:29,929 --> 00:15:32,097
Like what on earth would he know about?

302
00:15:32,097 --> 00:15:35,976
You know, he's five states away
and he just said, oh, I know of a a

303
00:15:36,226 --> 00:15:38,354
I said, we're looking for something
a little bit more conservative.

304
00:15:38,354 --> 00:15:41,273
We aren't really sure, but
and I didn't know what they were.

305
00:15:41,273 --> 00:15:42,816
I knew they had something on their heads,
but I didn't know what they were.

306
00:15:42,816 --> 00:15:46,654
We had seen a picture of the family
and we were educated enough.

307
00:15:46,654 --> 00:15:48,614
At this point.
We were like, well, they're not Amish,

308
00:15:49,907 --> 00:15:53,369
and apparently
they're not Mennonite either.

309
00:15:53,869 --> 00:15:56,747
And we were just like,
so I don't know what what they are.

310
00:15:56,747 --> 00:15:57,790
Yeah. anyway?

311
00:15:57,790 --> 00:15:59,667
So he said, oh, well, I know of a church.

312
00:15:59,667 --> 00:16:01,752
It was about an hour and a half away.

313
00:16:01,752 --> 00:16:04,755
And so Jeff called

314
00:16:05,339 --> 00:16:08,842
the minister and he ended up actually
calling back when Jeff was gone.

315
00:16:08,842 --> 00:16:10,260
So I had to talk to him.

316
00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:14,640
And I think I said something like,
what am I supposed to wear something?

317
00:16:15,099 --> 00:16:19,103
Because we were by then, we,
we were dressing a little different.

318
00:16:19,103 --> 00:16:24,024
And we were we were getting closer
to this end of things slowly.

319
00:16:24,441 --> 00:16:26,026
And he said, no.

320
00:16:26,026 --> 00:16:28,320
He said, you just come as you are.

321
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,156
And that was really,

322
00:16:31,156 --> 00:16:32,449
was just what we needed to hear.

323
00:16:32,449 --> 00:16:34,493
Like, just come as you are.

324
00:16:34,493 --> 00:16:35,786
We don't expect anything.

325
00:16:35,786 --> 00:16:37,329
And that's so that was neat. So we

326
00:16:38,789 --> 00:16:41,417
we went there, we visited.

327
00:16:41,417 --> 00:16:44,378
That would have been our first Anabaptist
church.

328
00:16:44,545 --> 00:16:47,548
that's the first time
you actually went to a service

329
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,843
like a Mennonite or Anabaptist,
whatever you want to call service.

330
00:16:51,176 --> 00:16:54,179
That's interesting
because this is like a multi-year process.

331
00:16:54,179 --> 00:16:57,182
Then you know it didn't happen super fast.

332
00:16:57,182 --> 00:16:58,100
I guess.

333
00:16:58,100 --> 00:16:59,184
Okay.

334
00:16:59,184 --> 00:17:02,813
So you're,
you go through that and then at what,

335
00:17:03,731 --> 00:17:07,609
what are the things that started
attracting you then more specifically

336
00:17:07,609 --> 00:17:09,987
to the Anabaptist, like,
you're on this journey,

337
00:17:09,987 --> 00:17:12,156
you're going
you're meeting some of these people.

338
00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:14,491
Go visit this church.

339
00:17:14,491 --> 00:17:14,783
Yeah.

340
00:17:14,783 --> 00:17:17,786
Speak into that a bit, what were you
seeing there that that attracted you?

341
00:17:18,495 --> 00:17:22,166
I mean, I think at that point
and even till now,

342
00:17:22,499 --> 00:17:25,586
what attracted us in and attracts us,
obviously

343
00:17:25,586 --> 00:17:29,089
there's always the lifestyle thing
that our people from our background see,

344
00:17:30,299 --> 00:17:33,260
I mean, we just have to be honest,
it is there.

345
00:17:33,385 --> 00:17:36,346
But in the end, it's the

346
00:17:36,346 --> 00:17:39,224
the adherence to the scriptures
to us was just awesome.

347
00:17:39,224 --> 00:17:42,436
And we were trying to get answers
in our former settings.

348
00:17:42,853 --> 00:17:45,064
And sometimes they had some

349
00:17:45,064 --> 00:17:48,442
and sometimes, you know,
they didn't like with the veiling.

350
00:17:48,734 --> 00:17:50,402
And it was so nice to be in a church

351
00:17:50,402 --> 00:17:54,156
where we could just sit down and ask
questions, and they would give us answers.

352
00:17:54,656 --> 00:17:56,784
And the teachings were there.

353
00:17:56,784 --> 00:17:59,411
They were wonderful tracts
that would go through all these

354
00:17:59,411 --> 00:18:02,664
doctrinal things and,
that blessed us as well.

355
00:18:03,165 --> 00:18:06,168
we found out quickly
that first Sunday we were there.

356
00:18:06,293 --> 00:18:08,629
We understood community in a way.

357
00:18:08,629 --> 00:18:11,090
I think that that we never did.

358
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:14,093
So, as soon as the church meeting
was done,

359
00:18:14,301 --> 00:18:17,429
I was rather surrounded by men,

360
00:18:18,263 --> 00:18:21,350
talking to me and and being kind to me.

361
00:18:21,558 --> 00:18:23,352
And that really is a blessing.

362
00:18:23,352 --> 00:18:27,231
It's awkward when you visit a church,
obviously, and nobody talks to you.

363
00:18:27,523 --> 00:18:30,818
And I thought, I thought, this is awesome.

364
00:18:30,818 --> 00:18:34,071
I don't know where
my wife is in the church right now

365
00:18:34,321 --> 00:18:35,614
in the church building.

366
00:18:35,614 --> 00:18:40,994
And I thought, if if I go find my wife
and the women are talking to her,

367
00:18:41,578 --> 00:18:44,164
with the enthusiasm that the men

368
00:18:44,164 --> 00:18:47,835
are talking to me,
then this might just have to be it.

369
00:18:47,835 --> 00:18:51,463
I mean, I was shocked,
and so I went and found Deena,

370
00:18:51,755 --> 00:18:53,715
and sure enough,
she was surrounded by women

371
00:18:53,715 --> 00:18:56,051
and they were talking to her
and welcoming her.

372
00:18:56,051 --> 00:18:57,928
And so that was a huge thing.

373
00:18:57,928 --> 00:19:01,306
So the so still to us today, the doctrine

374
00:19:01,515 --> 00:19:05,102
and the community
that we have is such a blessing.

375
00:19:06,270 --> 00:19:08,605
And so, we went home

376
00:19:08,605 --> 00:19:11,608
and I honestly think we didn't talk much
about the church for a week.

377
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:14,444
I don't know why,
because we talk about everything.

378
00:19:14,444 --> 00:19:16,822
And so at the end of the week,
I think Deena brought it up.

379
00:19:16,822 --> 00:19:19,283
She said, what do you think, Jeff?

380
00:19:19,283 --> 00:19:21,577
And I said, we have to go back.

381
00:19:21,577 --> 00:19:23,078
You know, I said, what do you think?

382
00:19:23,078 --> 00:19:25,497
And she said, yeah, we have to go back.

383
00:19:25,497 --> 00:19:27,374
And so that was it.

384
00:19:27,374 --> 00:19:30,169
We were on the journey now.

385
00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:30,752
Yeah.

386
00:19:30,752 --> 00:19:34,506
The the community aspect is an interesting
piece you're pulling out there

387
00:19:35,174 --> 00:19:39,469
that really stuck out to you
then in that process there's nothing

388
00:19:40,512 --> 00:19:42,389
like nothing that I found.

389
00:19:42,389 --> 00:19:45,309
I don't want to overstate
our experiences, are our experiences.

390
00:19:45,309 --> 00:19:47,644
And I don't want to make it
like we've lived everything.

391
00:19:47,644 --> 00:19:50,439
But in my experience, in our background,

392
00:19:50,439 --> 00:19:53,358
there's nothing like
the community of the Anabaptist.

393
00:19:53,358 --> 00:19:56,862
I think the Amish have us all,
just to be fair

394
00:19:57,112 --> 00:20:00,115
on really, really, really close community.

395
00:20:00,157 --> 00:20:03,702
I teach, singing to the Amish,
and so we've gotten to rub

396
00:20:03,702 --> 00:20:06,288
shoulders with them,
and I think they have us all,

397
00:20:06,288 --> 00:20:10,667
but all the rest of the Anabaptist
groups were we still are

398
00:20:10,667 --> 00:20:14,588
so much closer than I felt like
we were in our former background.

399
00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:18,383
I am a music teacher and doing that.

400
00:20:18,425 --> 00:20:23,055
Choir tours are just part of life,
and this thing where we can call a church

401
00:20:23,555 --> 00:20:27,267
or multiple churches in multiple cities
and say, we're bringing

402
00:20:27,643 --> 00:20:32,022
60 people to your church, will you host
us, will you feed us three times

403
00:20:32,314 --> 00:20:35,234
and will you get housing for all of us
and the church,

404
00:20:35,234 --> 00:20:38,320
usually to say, if they're not busy,
of course we would, and make it work.

405
00:20:38,570 --> 00:20:40,572
That is the most amazing community.

406
00:20:40,572 --> 00:20:44,201
I had never seen anything like that
until we were part of this,

407
00:20:45,285 --> 00:20:46,203
these settings.

408
00:20:46,203 --> 00:20:49,164
And so it just thrills me and I,
we still go to churches.

409
00:20:49,164 --> 00:20:52,376
Some are new to me
and some are not around the country.

410
00:20:52,709 --> 00:20:55,879
And for them to plan these things
and be that welcoming

411
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:59,800
obviously to people that they do know,
some of them, because, you know,

412
00:21:00,175 --> 00:21:03,011
a lot of our people are related,
even across state lines.

413
00:21:03,011 --> 00:21:05,013
But, it just thrills me.

414
00:21:05,013 --> 00:21:07,224
And, it is a huge deal.

415
00:21:07,224 --> 00:21:10,852
So in this part of the story
then you're starting

416
00:21:10,852 --> 00:21:14,147
to get connected
more with the Anabaptist community.

417
00:21:14,189 --> 00:21:16,358
You're mentioning things
like hospitality.

418
00:21:16,358 --> 00:21:17,901
I guess you could say. All right.

419
00:21:17,901 --> 00:21:20,904
That would be one way to describe it
that really stuck out to you.

420
00:21:21,697 --> 00:21:26,535
But what was the process itself
like joining the Anabaptists?

421
00:21:27,786 --> 00:21:29,871
As you
said, you knew there was already sort of,

422
00:21:29,871 --> 00:21:33,417
you know, years before you ever went
to an Anabaptist church that was starting,

423
00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:35,294
but then actually joining process.

424
00:21:35,294 --> 00:21:37,129
What was that like?

425
00:21:37,129 --> 00:21:39,923
I would say that because

426
00:21:39,923 --> 00:21:42,384
of the seven years of

427
00:21:42,384 --> 00:21:47,014
just slow curiosity reading,
you know, scripture reading doctrine

428
00:21:47,014 --> 00:21:51,393
and studying everything and, and again,
not being set

429
00:21:51,393 --> 00:21:55,439
on, we're going to go be this
we had no idea we were going to be this.

430
00:21:56,064 --> 00:21:59,901
We were just looking for something that
fit more with the doctrine that we were

431
00:22:01,069 --> 00:22:02,863
convicted of at that time.

432
00:22:02,863 --> 00:22:05,407
So that by the time

433
00:22:05,407 --> 00:22:08,160
we walked in the door again

434
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,163
just to visit this Anabaptist church
that we'd heard about,

435
00:22:11,788 --> 00:22:17,252
I think I was probably 90,
maybe 95% there.

436
00:22:17,252 --> 00:22:18,337
And you were about what?

437
00:22:19,463 --> 00:22:23,842
63%. I would say 75 or 80.

438
00:22:25,010 --> 00:22:27,637
But we were
we had taken our time for so long

439
00:22:27,637 --> 00:22:29,890
and then look at again,
just looking for a place

440
00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:32,893
where we would fit in better
with what we already believed.

441
00:22:32,976 --> 00:22:36,021
But it it made it much easier

442
00:22:36,355 --> 00:22:41,485
as far as what we believed culturally,
it was much harder.

443
00:22:41,485 --> 00:22:46,073
There were a lot of things that we and
it wasn't necessarily anything biblical,

444
00:22:46,948 --> 00:22:49,368
but just cultural things

445
00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:52,871
that we didn't understand or comprehend
or have any framework for at all.

446
00:22:53,372 --> 00:22:56,375
That was really,

447
00:22:56,416 --> 00:22:59,753
I don't know, like getting thrown
into ice water or something in some ways.

448
00:22:59,753 --> 00:23:03,173
And we felt like we had so many things
in common doctrinally,

449
00:23:04,132 --> 00:23:06,551
but yet culturally totally different.

450
00:23:06,551 --> 00:23:09,096
That was hard. That's.

451
00:23:09,096 --> 00:23:09,596
That's it.

452
00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:12,933
That's an important piece
that I don't want to rush past.

453
00:23:13,558 --> 00:23:15,685
I'd like to drill into that a bit more.

454
00:23:15,685 --> 00:23:20,941
As much as you care to share, I don't want
to press on it too much, but it

455
00:23:22,109 --> 00:23:24,403
the doctrine alignment is one thing.

456
00:23:24,403 --> 00:23:26,863
But then there's the cultural element,
and it's easier.

457
00:23:26,863 --> 00:23:30,617
It's easy to kind of
catch one or the other, but not really

458
00:23:30,992 --> 00:23:32,202
notice both if you know what I mean?

459
00:23:32,202 --> 00:23:35,997
Like you were saying, how it's easy
for people to oh, look at the Amish and,

460
00:23:35,997 --> 00:23:38,375
you know, kind of the Amish tourism,
whatever you

461
00:23:38,375 --> 00:23:40,001
that's kind of looking
at the cultural side.

462
00:23:40,001 --> 00:23:41,711
Whoa, that's really interesting.
They do it this way.

463
00:23:41,711 --> 00:23:43,588
But then there's also the doctrinal side,

464
00:23:43,588 --> 00:23:47,384
you know, and sometimes you have people
attracted to one of those or the other.

465
00:23:47,717 --> 00:23:48,552
Right.

466
00:23:48,552 --> 00:23:51,596
And so you understand in our case
that there's some doctrinal alignment.

467
00:23:51,930 --> 00:23:55,809
Then the cultural process, is
maybe is a lot.

468
00:23:55,809 --> 00:23:59,104
And I think it's important
that we're honest about that, you know,

469
00:24:00,313 --> 00:24:01,189
yeah.

470
00:24:01,189 --> 00:24:02,649
Talk me through that process a bit.

471
00:24:02,649 --> 00:24:05,652
As, as much as I'd like to share.

472
00:24:05,694 --> 00:24:09,030
So I don't think we realize,
since we're all neighbors

473
00:24:09,531 --> 00:24:12,534
in the United States
to some point in Canada,

474
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,163
how much of a different culture
it is socially

475
00:24:16,705 --> 00:24:18,331
than it is in.

476
00:24:18,331 --> 00:24:22,461
I mean, in so many ways
we look the same besides dress things.

477
00:24:22,669 --> 00:24:26,256
And so there are lots of little innuendos,
is that the right term,

478
00:24:26,798 --> 00:24:30,552
and nuances socially though.

479
00:24:30,886 --> 00:24:32,929
I mean, we're still figuring out,

480
00:24:32,929 --> 00:24:36,516
I mean, I teach music to kindergarten
through 12th grade.

481
00:24:36,725 --> 00:24:41,271
Sometimes I think to the five year olds
I teach understand their culture

482
00:24:41,271 --> 00:24:41,938
better than I do.

483
00:24:41,938 --> 00:24:46,067
And this is about our 19th year,
with the Anabaptists.

484
00:24:46,067 --> 00:24:47,652
That's incredible.

485
00:24:47,652 --> 00:24:51,364
And so and it's just tiny little things,
you know, some things are just,

486
00:24:51,531 --> 00:24:54,034
some things that we would say

487
00:24:54,034 --> 00:24:55,911
we'd be told,
you know, that's actually inappropriate.

488
00:24:55,911 --> 00:24:58,246
And I'd be like, wow, I feel so bad.

489
00:24:58,246 --> 00:25:01,583
And then sometimes, you know,
the Anabaptists would use a phrase

490
00:25:01,583 --> 00:25:06,046
and I'd be like, oh, that's
kind of irreverent and it went both ways.

491
00:25:06,379 --> 00:25:09,382
And, and it's just frustrating,
you know, to be

492
00:25:09,382 --> 00:25:12,385
in your 30s
and 40s and be learning things like that.

493
00:25:12,511 --> 00:25:14,429
And then, I mean, some of it's

494
00:25:14,429 --> 00:25:16,890
lighthearted, like,
I remember the first time

495
00:25:16,890 --> 00:25:18,475
somebody said, we're having haystacks.

496
00:25:18,475 --> 00:25:20,018
And I thought, okay, haystacks.

497
00:25:20,018 --> 00:25:23,522
And then I noticed that it looks
sort of like Mexican food

498
00:25:23,522 --> 00:25:26,733
because Deana is from Texas
and we love good Mexican food.

499
00:25:27,025 --> 00:25:29,361
And so they put all of it in a pile.

500
00:25:29,361 --> 00:25:32,113
And I thought,
oh, that's, that's irreverent.

501
00:25:32,113 --> 00:25:32,989
And then

502
00:25:32,989 --> 00:25:36,076
and then they got the ranch dressing out
and put it all over and I'm like, okay,

503
00:25:36,076 --> 00:25:37,118
this is wrong.

504
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:38,912
And so

505
00:25:38,912 --> 00:25:42,123
I'm still not sure
if it's supposed to be sort of Mexican

506
00:25:42,123 --> 00:25:45,252
or if it's just a meal
with Mexican ingredients.

507
00:25:45,252 --> 00:25:46,795
I don't know, I've, I've

508
00:25:46,795 --> 00:25:50,632
honestly not figured it out either myself,
but I've never thought of that before.

509
00:25:50,674 --> 00:25:51,758
That's actually kind of hilarious.

510
00:25:51,758 --> 00:25:53,218
And so that's a happy

511
00:25:53,218 --> 00:25:57,097
a funny way to look at,
you know, culture shock, in a subtle way.

512
00:25:57,556 --> 00:26:00,809
That's interesting
that you use the phrase culture shock.

513
00:26:02,686 --> 00:26:04,354
Yeah. Is that kind of what it felt like.

514
00:26:04,354 --> 00:26:07,357
It Well, it was spurts of culture shock.

515
00:26:07,357 --> 00:26:09,484
It wasn't like suddenly, wow.

516
00:26:09,484 --> 00:26:10,735
Because we had watched it.

517
00:26:10,735 --> 00:26:13,738
I would say that they were very

518
00:26:15,115 --> 00:26:18,368
open in patient and answered our
they were very approachable.

519
00:26:18,660 --> 00:26:19,286
Yeah.

520
00:26:19,286 --> 00:26:21,913
I wonder sometimes, are we approachable?

521
00:26:21,913 --> 00:26:23,873
You know,
and if they were very approachable

522
00:26:23,873 --> 00:26:25,542
they would answer our questions.

523
00:26:25,542 --> 00:26:27,544
They were very accepting of us.

524
00:26:28,795 --> 00:26:30,964
But yeah, I just

525
00:26:30,964 --> 00:26:33,842
I don't know why the food thing comes up,
but I the first time

526
00:26:33,842 --> 00:26:37,012
we went through the food line, whatever,
I and I looked and I was like, oh.

527
00:26:37,220 --> 00:26:40,849
And I said, Jeff,
they make their own little Debbie's.

528
00:26:40,890 --> 00:26:43,143
They were little whoopie
pies like wrapped up.

529
00:26:43,143 --> 00:26:46,771
And I was like, oh, they make their own
little Debbie's like so that but again,

530
00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:51,359
those things have nothing to do
with doctrine or anything biblical.

531
00:26:51,693 --> 00:26:53,653
They're funny and they're little quirks.

532
00:26:53,653 --> 00:26:56,990
And I think that was important
for us was to separate, you know?

533
00:26:56,990 --> 00:26:58,950
Okay, I don't make Little Debbie.

534
00:26:58,950 --> 00:27:00,994
I'm sorry, don't make whoopie pies.

535
00:27:00,994 --> 00:27:03,747
But that has nothing to do with what

536
00:27:03,747 --> 00:27:06,750
I believe about these doctrinal issues.

537
00:27:06,833 --> 00:27:10,503
And I think that helped us a lot to
was just to, to appreciate the differences

538
00:27:10,503 --> 00:27:12,005
and just say, well,
I didn't grow up like that.

539
00:27:12,005 --> 00:27:13,798
My mom didn't
teach me how to make whoopie pies,

540
00:27:13,798 --> 00:27:17,093
but that doesn't mean I'm
less of a homemaker or less of a Christian

541
00:27:17,093 --> 00:27:20,221
or something,
because it's not a doctrinal issue.

542
00:27:20,722 --> 00:27:23,725
but at the same time, the culture element

543
00:27:23,933 --> 00:27:26,936
can result in a lot of confusion
and disorientation.

544
00:27:26,936 --> 00:27:28,647
Right. It was huge.

545
00:27:28,647 --> 00:27:29,230
It was huge.

546
00:27:29,230 --> 00:27:32,525
It was very like you said,
especially we were in our 40s, 30s, 40s.

547
00:27:32,525 --> 00:27:32,984
And it was,

548
00:27:34,527 --> 00:27:36,988
you feel like by that
point you've got a few things figured out,

549
00:27:36,988 --> 00:27:39,282
and then all of a sudden
you think maybe we don't.

550
00:27:39,282 --> 00:27:40,116
Yeah, yeah.

551
00:27:40,116 --> 00:27:41,826
Again, just it feels, in my mind.

552
00:27:41,826 --> 00:27:43,411
The word it keeps coming up is.

553
00:27:43,411 --> 00:27:44,287
Yeah, disorienting.

554
00:27:44,287 --> 00:27:45,830
You know, you've lived this,

555
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:48,958
this portion of your life and, like, okay,
you know, kind of know how things work.

556
00:27:48,958 --> 00:27:49,167
And then.

557
00:27:49,167 --> 00:27:50,377
So then you're in an environment

558
00:27:50,377 --> 00:27:53,630
where you keep getting hit with random
surprises, where it's like, whoa,

559
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:57,634
how did you how did you work through that?

560
00:27:57,634 --> 00:28:01,262
I think we get asked
not often, but enough.

561
00:28:01,596 --> 00:28:05,058
What can the Anabaptists do to, make it

562
00:28:05,058 --> 00:28:08,311
so that all the people from our background
will come into the churches and stay?

563
00:28:08,311 --> 00:28:12,899
And I think they want this list of, 
horrible things that the Anabaptists

564
00:28:12,899 --> 00:28:15,360
are doing to offend the people
from our background that they leave.

565
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,739
And I think we've decided
that there's nothing like that at all.

566
00:28:20,448 --> 00:28:22,742
It tends to be it.

567
00:28:22,742 --> 00:28:22,951
Well,

568
00:28:22,951 --> 00:28:25,954
it tends to be people who decide that it's
just not worth the cost, for one thing.

569
00:28:26,246 --> 00:28:31,292
But for this specific conversation,
there are misunderstandings.

570
00:28:31,292 --> 00:28:34,003
I think that all that happen,
the Anabaptists do

571
00:28:34,003 --> 00:28:37,924
have a social worldview,
as do the non Anabaptists.

572
00:28:38,258 --> 00:28:42,095
And so I think sometimes
we mind read each other incorrectly

573
00:28:42,554 --> 00:28:47,016
and and since we're in an Anabaptist
setting,

574
00:28:47,225 --> 00:28:50,562
you know, their mind reading
is going to be more valid to some point

575
00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:54,149
because it's the predominating worldview
of the of their church.

576
00:28:54,566 --> 00:28:57,944
And so we're the ones that can feel
kind of silly, you know, and be left out.

577
00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:00,280
And so I like animals.

578
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,616
And so, we had some friends
and they almost adopted

579
00:29:03,616 --> 00:29:06,119
as they were so wonderful to us
when we first came to the Anabaptist.

580
00:29:06,119 --> 00:29:09,122
And so I would just go out
and pet their cow and talk to it.

581
00:29:09,164 --> 00:29:12,417
And they told me after, a year
or so they said,

582
00:29:12,417 --> 00:29:15,920
we thought that you were not a Christian
because you, like, worshiped animals.

583
00:29:16,296 --> 00:29:17,672
And I was I was like,

584
00:29:18,882 --> 00:29:20,341
oh, okay.

585
00:29:20,341 --> 00:29:21,760
Interesting. Right.

586
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,472
And so, you know, they said like,
you know, he's to eat or whatever.

587
00:29:25,889 --> 00:29:28,558
And I probably said,
you know, don't, don't eat them.

588
00:29:28,558 --> 00:29:30,059
And I mean, anyways.

589
00:29:30,059 --> 00:29:31,519
And so they're like, yeah.

590
00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:34,606
And so things like that,
I just think, you know, they're thinking,

591
00:29:34,814 --> 00:29:37,025
wow, this guy really is kind of messed up.

592
00:29:37,025 --> 00:29:37,901
He worships animals.

593
00:29:37,901 --> 00:29:41,571
And I was just like,
I just like to pet animals, anyways.

594
00:29:41,571 --> 00:29:45,366
So some things like that, ya’ll are
looking at me like that is kind of weird.

595
00:29:45,366 --> 00:29:48,036
Jeff. Anyways.

596
00:29:48,036 --> 00:29:51,456
Well but I think this is,
this is kind of like

597
00:29:51,956 --> 00:29:55,043
a fish in water doesn't, doesn't
realize there's water around it, you know,

598
00:29:55,043 --> 00:29:57,629
like that's how it is with the cultures
that we, that we live in.

599
00:29:57,629 --> 00:29:59,464
Sometimes it's immersive.

600
00:29:59,464 --> 00:30:02,217
And then when someone tries
to break into that space,

601
00:30:02,217 --> 00:30:05,804
it can just be complicated,
I guess is the word that comes to mind.

602
00:30:06,471 --> 00:30:08,556
I think preconceived notions,

603
00:30:09,557 --> 00:30:11,726
are really not helpful either.

604
00:30:11,726 --> 00:30:17,690
I know one time I sewed
some dresses and I had taken Home EC,

605
00:30:17,816 --> 00:30:21,277
I don't know why or whatever,
and I knew how to sew anyway, so I'd sewn

606
00:30:22,487 --> 00:30:25,073
some dresses for my my daughters and I,

607
00:30:25,073 --> 00:30:27,325
and we went to church
the next day or whatever.

608
00:30:27,325 --> 00:30:30,703
And somebody said to me,
oh, you have a new dress.

609
00:30:30,703 --> 00:30:31,788
And I said, yeah.

610
00:30:31,788 --> 00:30:34,791
And they said, well, who sewed it for you?

611
00:30:35,792 --> 00:30:37,794
And I said, I sewed them.

612
00:30:37,794 --> 00:30:40,255
And they were like, oh, you sew?

613
00:30:40,255 --> 00:30:44,592
And it was like,
yeah, like my mom sewed my grandmother.

614
00:30:44,592 --> 00:30:46,052
So like, what's the big deal?

615
00:30:46,052 --> 00:30:49,055
You can only sew
if you're an Anabaptist or something.

616
00:30:49,514 --> 00:30:50,723
So things like that.

617
00:30:50,723 --> 00:30:53,059
I think we're a little like that

618
00:30:53,059 --> 00:30:56,062
because you, you want to fit in
like from our standpoint,

619
00:30:56,312 --> 00:30:58,314
there are so many similarities
doctrinally.

620
00:30:58,314 --> 00:30:58,982
We just want to

621
00:31:00,358 --> 00:31:01,734
feel a part of it.

622
00:31:01,734 --> 00:31:05,196
And I think when we felt singled out like,
oh, you're so different,

623
00:31:05,655 --> 00:31:09,158
we didn't necessarily and we felt it some,
but it was like, oh,

624
00:31:09,158 --> 00:31:12,620
thanks for drawing attention to the fact
that, you know, that

625
00:31:12,620 --> 00:31:15,957
you think I'm really different and weird,
even though on that issue I wasn't

626
00:31:16,416 --> 00:31:20,211
that was kind of,
But I think it was misunderstandings.

627
00:31:20,211 --> 00:31:23,214
I don't think they meant it
to be as hurtful as it was.

628
00:31:23,256 --> 00:31:29,095
I was at a brothers meeting once
and I've lovely people and we were

629
00:31:29,095 --> 00:31:32,098
talking about, passing out turkeys

630
00:31:32,098 --> 00:31:34,934
at, Thanksgiving to the community.

631
00:31:34,934 --> 00:31:36,936
You know, it's
just to be a blessing as a church.

632
00:31:36,936 --> 00:31:38,479
And one of the people said, well,

633
00:31:38,479 --> 00:31:41,482
do you think the people in the community
will know how to cook the turkeys?

634
00:31:41,774 --> 00:31:44,777
And I was just thinking, okay,
you just said that in front of me.

635
00:31:44,819 --> 00:31:46,613
You know, I came from North Carolina,

636
00:31:46,613 --> 00:31:50,199
and, us hillbillies could make the most
wonderful food in the world.

637
00:31:50,199 --> 00:31:52,577
And every one of us knows
how to make a turkey.

638
00:31:52,577 --> 00:31:54,329
And so some things like that,

639
00:31:54,329 --> 00:31:58,541
it comes across as hurtful, 
but it wasn't really meant to be that way.

640
00:31:58,541 --> 00:31:59,292
And I don't think they thought

641
00:31:59,292 --> 00:32:03,254
I was even in the room
as a non Anabaptist background person.

642
00:32:03,254 --> 00:32:05,173
So there is that.

643
00:32:05,173 --> 00:32:05,965
But it's so easy.

644
00:32:05,965 --> 00:32:10,261
Just have these assumptions that there's
kind of happen, you know what I mean?

645
00:32:10,261 --> 00:32:11,054
And that's.

646
00:32:12,597 --> 00:32:15,642
I can see
some of this as, as definitely a process.

647
00:32:15,642 --> 00:32:19,520
You know, as y'all are entering this
and trying to find your way and I think

648
00:32:20,355 --> 00:32:22,857
back to some of the things
you were saying, you know,

649
00:32:22,857 --> 00:32:25,944
we all want to have a place like
we want to feel like we belong somewhere.

650
00:32:26,235 --> 00:32:28,821
It feels like that's that's a theme
that's coming through this episode.

651
00:32:28,821 --> 00:32:29,197
Right?

652
00:32:29,197 --> 00:32:33,451
Is you're searching, you know, you've been
in these different church situations

653
00:32:33,451 --> 00:32:35,286
and you're trying to find, okay,
where do we belong?

654
00:32:35,286 --> 00:32:38,289
Where can we join
a community of believers, where we

655
00:32:38,581 --> 00:32:42,794
where we feel like,
yeah, we're a part, you know, we fit here.

656
00:32:43,044 --> 00:32:46,255
And in a way,
I think everybody's looking for that.

657
00:32:46,965 --> 00:32:49,092
You know?

658
00:32:49,092 --> 00:32:51,427
So this is maybe backing up a little bit,

659
00:32:51,427 --> 00:32:53,346
but I want to make sure we, we,
we catch this here.

660
00:32:53,346 --> 00:32:55,056
What were the main points

661
00:32:56,099 --> 00:32:59,602
that convinced you that you wanted to join
the Anabaptist?

662
00:33:00,645 --> 00:33:02,021
You were hitting
some of the cultural things,

663
00:33:02,021 --> 00:33:05,650
but it'd be interesting to catch
some of the doctrinal, elements as well.

664
00:33:06,442 --> 00:33:08,027
I think it was.

665
00:33:08,027 --> 00:33:12,615
And I don't know when this became
the defining point, but I feel like that

666
00:33:13,366 --> 00:33:16,619
in all the things that we've seen
and we haven't seen

667
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,789
every situation, obviously, in the world,

668
00:33:19,789 --> 00:33:24,252
that the Anabaptist approach
to Christianity

669
00:33:24,252 --> 00:33:28,548
is the most biblical
and that's not to run anyone down.

670
00:33:28,756 --> 00:33:30,341
I don't know what you know.

671
00:33:30,341 --> 00:33:32,510
The underground church in China does.

672
00:33:32,510 --> 00:33:33,970
I have respect for it.

673
00:33:33,970 --> 00:33:37,932
I don't know what indigenous peoples, do

674
00:33:38,474 --> 00:33:43,021
that are evangelized and come to Christ,
but I feel like what I know of North

675
00:33:43,021 --> 00:33:46,274
American culture, it's the best example
I've seen.

676
00:33:46,649 --> 00:33:50,486
Of listening to the teachings of the Bible
and reading them and doing them,

677
00:33:50,820 --> 00:33:53,823
and more specific, the teachings of Christ

678
00:33:53,865 --> 00:33:56,409
and, of the sermon on the Mount.

679
00:33:56,409 --> 00:33:59,829
And it's hard for me to think,
and I don't want to be arrogant and say,

680
00:33:59,829 --> 00:34:01,456
well, I will never leave.

681
00:34:01,456 --> 00:34:05,376
We're here by God's grace, and I hope
that we will stay by God's grace,

682
00:34:06,210 --> 00:34:09,589
what is dear to us is, again,

683
00:34:09,797 --> 00:34:12,759
listening to the scriptures and saying,
it says to do this.

684
00:34:12,759 --> 00:34:16,596
So we're in a church
that chooses to do those things.

685
00:34:16,804 --> 00:34:22,268
And the Anabaptists aren't perfect with
every little thing that we do, I get that,

686
00:34:22,477 --> 00:34:25,855
but I've never seen any other group
that really is this dedicated

687
00:34:26,439 --> 00:34:29,650
to to the words of Christ
and the commands, the scriptures.

688
00:34:29,901 --> 00:34:33,780
And, it would be hard to go back and say,
you know, we still have these beliefs.

689
00:34:34,697 --> 00:34:37,450
Well,
I don't want to be negative or anything.

690
00:34:37,450 --> 00:34:42,038
You know, and run anybody down,
but I feel like this is the best example.

691
00:34:43,873 --> 00:34:44,290
Yeah.

692
00:34:44,290 --> 00:34:46,084
What would you say.

693
00:34:46,084 --> 00:34:46,918
That's it.

694
00:34:46,918 --> 00:34:49,921
I mean,
we have been in different situations

695
00:34:50,296 --> 00:34:53,299
in Anabaptist churches
where we've been hurt.

696
00:34:53,883 --> 00:34:57,095
But we if we really believe this
and we do,

697
00:34:57,553 --> 00:35:00,807
we there's no, we're going to be
in an Anabaptist church somewhere

698
00:35:00,807 --> 00:35:04,852
because our doctrine
and our beliefs are Anabaptist.

699
00:35:05,978 --> 00:35:09,565
And so I think that's been part
of the longevity of our journey, is that

700
00:35:09,565 --> 00:35:13,903
we felt like we're going to make it work
because this is what we believe.

701
00:35:15,279 --> 00:35:19,534
Well and that's another thread too that's
coming through is perseverance right.

702
00:35:20,118 --> 00:35:23,121
Is that is that capture it correctly.

703
00:35:24,872 --> 00:35:27,458
Do you want to say
anything more on on that point

704
00:35:27,458 --> 00:35:31,254
I think I mean to people
that would be searching and considering

705
00:35:32,797 --> 00:35:36,175
to consider it carefully
and think about it for a long time

706
00:35:37,176 --> 00:35:41,639
and to jump in and to do it in the end

707
00:35:42,223 --> 00:35:45,226
for obedience to God and Christ,

708
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:50,022
even if the hurts come because you know,
I want to do

709
00:35:50,022 --> 00:35:53,025
what God would have us to do and

710
00:35:53,526 --> 00:35:55,862
maybe not be a fundamentalist,

711
00:35:55,862 --> 00:35:59,240
however do to obey
Christ and His commands.

712
00:36:00,032 --> 00:36:03,035
And so, like Deana said, we have been hurt

713
00:36:03,161 --> 00:36:04,162
and people have...

714
00:36:04,162 --> 00:36:05,121
And I feel like we feel it

715
00:36:05,121 --> 00:36:09,041
more since we don't always feel
like we are in as a part of the culture.

716
00:36:09,041 --> 00:36:10,960
I think our children do.

717
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,964
So, yeah, the perseverance
for the sake of following Christ

718
00:36:15,506 --> 00:36:18,509
and being in the community of people
that follow Christ,

719
00:36:18,843 --> 00:36:20,720
Perseverance for the right reasons.

720
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:21,888
That’s what I was about to say.

721
00:36:21,888 --> 00:36:25,892
Yeah, because there's so many bad reasons
that people could do things.

722
00:36:26,309 --> 00:36:30,980
And I feel like for us it was that was
what ultimately that's what mattered.

723
00:36:30,980 --> 00:36:36,319
That's more important than relationships
or being misunderstood or whatever.

724
00:36:36,611 --> 00:36:38,321
It's our beliefs.

725
00:36:38,321 --> 00:36:39,530
So we had we had to

726
00:36:39,530 --> 00:36:41,741
I remember one time we said, well,
where else are we going to go?

727
00:36:41,741 --> 00:36:42,825
What are we going to?

728
00:36:42,825 --> 00:36:44,493
We have to stick this out.

729
00:36:44,493 --> 00:36:47,121
Yeah,
because we do believe what we believe.

730
00:36:47,121 --> 00:36:50,750
So I think that the the modest clothing

731
00:36:50,875 --> 00:36:53,878
in this separation is a big draw.

732
00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:57,423
I just don't think that
that would be enough for us to stay.

733
00:36:57,632 --> 00:37:01,135
And I think maybe that's
why some people join for a while

734
00:37:01,135 --> 00:37:04,138
and then go away
and then the lifestyle as well.

735
00:37:04,138 --> 00:37:04,347
Yeah.

736
00:37:04,347 --> 00:37:06,349
I mean, along with us

737
00:37:06,349 --> 00:37:09,852
going to look at the Amish,
we tried farming and a tiny bit

738
00:37:09,852 --> 00:37:13,689
of homesteading and starting businesses
in, we failed at all of those.

739
00:37:15,191 --> 00:37:18,152
We did really we’re

740
00:37:18,152 --> 00:37:22,531
unapologetically teachers and It's what
we absolutely love to do. so.

741
00:37:22,531 --> 00:37:25,952
You don't have a little garden
and all the typical Mennonite things,

742
00:37:25,952 --> 00:37:28,955
you know, and I think I got two tomatoes
this year, right.

743
00:37:30,248 --> 00:37:33,751
Well, okay, I don't feel quite so bad
because I'm like the worst gardener

744
00:37:33,876 --> 00:37:34,585
on the planet.

745
00:37:34,585 --> 00:37:37,880
So I just kind of given up hope
that that would ever happen. So,

746
00:37:39,298 --> 00:37:41,342
you know,
and we can kind of chuckle about it, but,

747
00:37:41,342 --> 00:37:42,635
you know, like,
that's actually a thing like

748
00:37:42,635 --> 00:37:44,345
the Mennonites have their gardens
and the whatever.

749
00:37:44,345 --> 00:37:46,806
And if someone's coming in and like,
oh, okay, well, if this is like

750
00:37:46,806 --> 00:37:48,349
how we're supposed to do things and,

751
00:37:48,349 --> 00:37:51,811
and yet maybe you're don't want to do it
or don't enjoy it or something like

752
00:37:51,811 --> 00:37:56,691
that could be unnecessary pressure
that isn't really intentional.

753
00:37:56,691 --> 00:37:59,026
It just kind of happens. So

754
00:37:59,986 --> 00:38:03,155
as we pull this package together,

755
00:38:04,407 --> 00:38:09,328
what advice would you give to listeners
that are on their own journey right now

756
00:38:09,662 --> 00:38:13,791
of trying to find what church
should I plug into what

757
00:38:13,833 --> 00:38:19,046
how do I join a community
that represents the things that I value

758
00:38:19,046 --> 00:38:22,591
and that I believe God is calling me to,
and they're on that journey?

759
00:38:23,134 --> 00:38:24,719
Whichever part of the process
they may be in,

760
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,180
because in your situation,
it was quite a process, right?

761
00:38:29,265 --> 00:38:31,392
What do you say to those people
they're searching,

762
00:38:31,392 --> 00:38:34,395
and what advice would you give them?

763
00:38:34,437 --> 00:38:38,149
I, I think that we should search

764
00:38:38,149 --> 00:38:41,152
for a church
that we feel very comfortable in.

765
00:38:41,444 --> 00:38:44,071
And, oftentimes

766
00:38:44,071 --> 00:38:47,825
our people come in,
they want to be extremely conservative.

767
00:38:48,242 --> 00:38:53,247
We, we want to be the most conservative
Mennonite or Amish that we can.

768
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,792
And we get frustrated with the churches

769
00:38:56,792 --> 00:38:59,795
that we find because we feel like
they're not conservative enough.

770
00:38:59,879 --> 00:39:02,840
And so we want the churches
to bend a little for us.

771
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,595
And then I've also seen our people come
and want to be fairly liberal

772
00:39:08,262 --> 00:39:11,015
and, and so they go to,

773
00:39:11,974 --> 00:39:14,769
a conservative church
and they want it to be more liberal.

774
00:39:14,769 --> 00:39:16,437
Am I saying this? Right?

775
00:39:16,437 --> 00:39:20,399
And so, I think it's important
to find a church that is as close

776
00:39:20,399 --> 00:39:26,072
as your belief system, including
culturally, for lack of a better term.

777
00:39:26,072 --> 00:39:29,575
Is it the right conservative
or the right liberal amount for you?

778
00:39:29,992 --> 00:39:32,995
Because it is frustrating,
because I feel like some of the

779
00:39:33,371 --> 00:39:36,040
well-meaning Anabaptist
churches will try to make things

780
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,210
a little bit more liberal,
if that's what we are pushing for,

781
00:39:39,293 --> 00:39:42,963
because they want to keep us usually,
maybe not much more conservative.

782
00:39:43,422 --> 00:39:45,716
And so, I would keep going.

783
00:39:45,716 --> 00:39:49,136
If the churches are available
in the communities where you are

784
00:39:49,136 --> 00:39:52,139
from to try to find something that suits.

785
00:39:52,348 --> 00:39:54,308
And also

786
00:39:54,308 --> 00:39:57,395
our people can be pretty cynical
about the Anabaptist.

787
00:39:58,312 --> 00:39:59,397
Nuances and things.

788
00:39:59,397 --> 00:40:01,023
And I think hearts come into play.

789
00:40:01,023 --> 00:40:03,859
I think sometimes for a time
when we come in

790
00:40:03,859 --> 00:40:07,071
for the first
4 or 5 years, we kind of feel

791
00:40:08,155 --> 00:40:10,282
and it's not imposed on anyone,

792
00:40:10,282 --> 00:40:13,661
kind of self-imposed, like we don't have
anything to contribute to the community.

793
00:40:14,620 --> 00:40:18,999
And so I feel like we replace
that kind of not feeling valuable

794
00:40:19,291 --> 00:40:22,294
with some cynicism and Mennonite jokes.

795
00:40:22,503 --> 00:40:25,464
And so, I would just avoid that.

796
00:40:25,464 --> 00:40:28,467
I mean, the Mennonites
do some very charming things

797
00:40:29,093 --> 00:40:33,264
and they can be teased about occasionally,
but I just feel like,

798
00:40:34,014 --> 00:40:36,350
you know, keep the cynicism at bay and see

799
00:40:36,350 --> 00:40:39,353
the beauty of the culture
and the wonderful things.

800
00:40:40,104 --> 00:40:44,150
I would say, first of all,
and I think, again, what we're for us

801
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:47,778
was that we already knew what we believed.

802
00:40:47,778 --> 00:40:50,906
We had read the Bible, we studied,

803
00:40:50,906 --> 00:40:54,285
we weren't following any religion
because we didn't even know it existed.

804
00:40:54,285 --> 00:40:56,328
Really? Or what knew what it was.

805
00:40:56,328 --> 00:40:59,957
And certainly
not the details about it, but

806
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:02,960
as we grew

807
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,839
spiritually, we just got to a point
where this is what we believe.

808
00:41:06,839 --> 00:41:09,925
And so we were looking for a group
that believed that.

809
00:41:10,092 --> 00:41:13,095
And we certainly never thought
it would be,

810
00:41:14,096 --> 00:41:17,099
where we ended up
when we started, for sure.

811
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:22,313
But that way if you go in and,
oh, maybe we'll do this or they do this,

812
00:41:22,313 --> 00:41:24,523
maybe we'll do this and oh,
we don't really believe this,

813
00:41:24,523 --> 00:41:26,817
but everybody else does it,
so maybe we'll do it.

814
00:41:26,817 --> 00:41:27,818
That's not going to work.

815
00:41:27,818 --> 00:41:29,028
That's not going to last long term.

816
00:41:29,028 --> 00:41:31,030
It's not sustainable. No.

817
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:34,200
And I feel like there are things
obviously that we can oh I haven't

818
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,161
thought about that before or that might be
something really good to add in.

819
00:41:37,203 --> 00:41:42,249
But you have to really for us, we had to
really know what we believed before.

820
00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:45,419
You know I think that helped. So much.

821
00:41:45,419 --> 00:41:47,963
I had a friend, and,

822
00:41:49,423 --> 00:41:50,090
her family

823
00:41:50,090 --> 00:41:53,385
was also from non-Anabaptist background,
but we were just talking one time,

824
00:41:53,928 --> 00:41:58,015
and she said that
her mother would sit in church sometimes.

825
00:41:58,557 --> 00:42:00,226
And after church was over,

826
00:42:00,226 --> 00:42:02,770
all the ladies would,
you know, talk about whatever they were.

827
00:42:02,770 --> 00:42:05,773
And she said her mom didn't really

828
00:42:05,856 --> 00:42:08,859
feel like she fit in
or had really, you know, close friends.

829
00:42:08,984 --> 00:42:13,280
And, but her mother had said, well,
I might not completely fit

830
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,368
in, you know, ever really
or feel like I do, but my children, will.

831
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,913
and that was the sacrifice
that she was willing to make because her

832
00:42:20,913 --> 00:42:23,916
upbringing and background in education,
everything was so different.

833
00:42:24,291 --> 00:42:29,964
But she was willing to do that because she
felt like this will benefit my children.

834
00:42:30,548 --> 00:42:32,508
And I have felt like that sometimes.

835
00:42:32,508 --> 00:42:35,094
But I will say in my church setting now,

836
00:42:35,094 --> 00:42:38,931
I feel accepted and appreciated

837
00:42:39,682 --> 00:42:43,310
for the person I am
and whatever God's given me.

838
00:42:43,769 --> 00:42:45,104
And that's that's a good feeling.

839
00:42:45,104 --> 00:42:49,191
I haven't always felt that way, but
I do really appreciate where we are now.

840
00:42:49,191 --> 00:42:50,568
Some.

841
00:42:50,568 --> 00:42:53,904
And I think that's an important piece
that you had there

842
00:42:54,113 --> 00:42:57,449
that our churches,
when I say our churches.

843
00:42:57,449 --> 00:43:00,869
I mean the, the Anabaptist community
needs to be aware of

844
00:43:02,246 --> 00:43:02,788
is the

845
00:43:02,788 --> 00:43:06,250
and these are hard things
to know what to do with.

846
00:43:06,250 --> 00:43:09,336
But it is so easy to miss things

847
00:43:09,628 --> 00:43:13,507
because of some of the cultural dynamics
or different backgrounds.

848
00:43:13,799 --> 00:43:17,761
Sometimes there's there's gaps or we're
missing each other in the communication.

849
00:43:18,053 --> 00:43:21,348
And I don't know what the solutions are
to these things, you know,

850
00:43:21,348 --> 00:43:24,935
but hopefully we can at least put
a little more awareness out there of this.

851
00:43:25,311 --> 00:43:26,103
Maybe that will make people

852
00:43:26,103 --> 00:43:29,732
more gracious and more, 
willing to learn from each other, perhaps.

853
00:43:29,982 --> 00:43:32,901
I don't even know, you know, 
and but perhaps you have something

854
00:43:32,901 --> 00:43:34,111
you want to add to that.

855
00:43:34,111 --> 00:43:36,405
I was just going to say, I think

856
00:43:36,405 --> 00:43:37,489
maybe I'm wrong with the men.

857
00:43:37,489 --> 00:43:40,367
Might have an easier time of it
because they can talk about their jobs or,

858
00:43:40,367 --> 00:43:41,035
you know, whatever.

859
00:43:41,035 --> 00:43:45,664
And I think sometimes for the women,
there are bigger differences.

860
00:43:45,664 --> 00:43:49,376
In some ways, I,
I don't know, but I feel like.

861
00:43:50,502 --> 00:43:51,629
I've been in situations

862
00:43:51,629 --> 00:43:55,007
where they all grew up together,
they all went to school together.

863
00:43:55,007 --> 00:43:59,762
They all, you know,
and I just felt like, I'm so different.

864
00:43:59,762 --> 00:44:03,766
You know, I only kind of merge in here,
you know, within the past ten years or so.

865
00:44:03,974 --> 00:44:06,977
And so

866
00:44:07,811 --> 00:44:10,397
then I feel like
I'm not going to interrupt

867
00:44:10,397 --> 00:44:11,649
and say, hey, let's talk about this.

868
00:44:11,649 --> 00:44:13,609
That applies to me, you know?

869
00:44:13,609 --> 00:44:16,195
And so but I do really appreciate

870
00:44:16,195 --> 00:44:19,156
the the women that have reached out to me.

871
00:44:19,156 --> 00:44:20,866
And I don't want to be a ministry project.

872
00:44:20,866 --> 00:44:22,451
I don't want that either.

873
00:44:22,451 --> 00:44:25,788
But but but not like ministry project
but as in like

874
00:44:26,372 --> 00:44:29,583
someone that reached out and cared
about your life and just had interest in

875
00:44:29,583 --> 00:44:34,630
you and, and made an effort to, to include
you, is that, a way of saying it or.

876
00:44:34,672 --> 00:44:38,592
I don't know, because I don't
I do not want to be a ministry project.

877
00:44:38,592 --> 00:44:42,763
I think Jeff and I have always felt like
we do not want to be needy,

878
00:44:43,305 --> 00:44:46,308
because sometimes
people from our background

879
00:44:46,517 --> 00:44:50,896
can come in and they're so they need this
and they need that and they want that.

880
00:44:50,896 --> 00:44:52,106
It's like take, take, take.

881
00:44:52,106 --> 00:44:52,481
And Jeff

882
00:44:52,481 --> 00:44:55,025
and I never wanted to be like that.
We wanted to give we were,

883
00:44:55,025 --> 00:44:57,403
we were frustrated that we could’nt
give more.

884
00:44:57,403 --> 00:45:00,072
And so I never wanted to feel like that.

885
00:45:00,072 --> 00:45:02,366
But it's just it's nice when somebody

886
00:45:03,575 --> 00:45:06,745
includes you or something being included
I think.

887
00:45:06,787 --> 00:45:07,621
Yeah.

888
00:45:07,621 --> 00:45:10,958
It kind of gives a sense of,
okay, I belong here, I fit in here.

889
00:45:11,250 --> 00:45:13,043
and to be honest with you, in the churches

890
00:45:13,043 --> 00:45:16,004
where we would talk
about spiritual things,

891
00:45:16,004 --> 00:45:17,756
I felt a lot more

892
00:45:17,756 --> 00:45:20,759
that those conversations
were easy to be a part of.

893
00:45:20,843 --> 00:45:24,972
That's a that's a that's an interesting
and I think important, important piece.

894
00:45:24,972 --> 00:45:27,558
There. Yeah.

895
00:45:27,558 --> 00:45:30,561
Do you have something you'd like to add to
to what she was saying.

896
00:45:31,437 --> 00:45:35,065
we didn't talk about it much,
but that there was a, not a crisis.

897
00:45:35,232 --> 00:45:38,235
But it was hard for us for 2 or 3 years
because we really felt like

898
00:45:38,444 --> 00:45:40,279
we didn't have anything to give.

899
00:45:40,279 --> 00:45:43,699
And this is our perspective,
not necessarily everybody

900
00:45:43,699 --> 00:45:46,702
that would come from the non Mennonite
background.

901
00:45:46,744 --> 00:45:50,914
We were musicians, you know,
we had taught high school bands

902
00:45:51,206 --> 00:45:54,918
and instrumental music
was a huge part of what we did.

903
00:45:55,419 --> 00:45:58,338
And so in our first Anabaptist church,
I'm not sure

904
00:45:58,338 --> 00:46:01,633
if they actually what we're thinking,
what we thought they were thinking.

905
00:46:01,842 --> 00:46:03,552
Again, on that mind reading.

906
00:46:03,552 --> 00:46:07,347
We thought you just didn't
talk much about instruments and playing.

907
00:46:07,347 --> 00:46:10,392
And we, you know, play classical music
and other kinds of music.

908
00:46:10,726 --> 00:46:14,021
And so we really felt for a while

909
00:46:14,062 --> 00:46:17,775
like we really don't say worthless
and we didn't want to appear needy.

910
00:46:17,983 --> 00:46:19,568
Like I said, we tried the gardening.

911
00:46:19,568 --> 00:46:23,572
I tried, some construction and carpentry
was kind of fail.

912
00:46:24,072 --> 00:46:27,910
And, and so we just felt like
we had nothing to give in that particular

913
00:46:27,910 --> 00:46:30,913
setting that we were in was a homeschool
only setting.

914
00:46:31,455 --> 00:46:34,041
And so there was not
a Mennonite school there.

915
00:46:34,041 --> 00:46:37,377
And so it was pretty hard
for us to feel included.

916
00:46:37,377 --> 00:46:41,089
And I do think that's one thing for us
as Mennonites could do when people come in

917
00:46:41,298 --> 00:46:42,299
is try hard.

918
00:46:42,299 --> 00:46:44,551
And I think a lot of the churches do

919
00:46:44,551 --> 00:46:48,388
once they're church members
especially, and get them involved in,

920
00:46:48,972 --> 00:46:51,975
serving the church and in the communities,

921
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:55,312
you know, helping them to be able
to serve in different ways there.

922
00:46:56,313 --> 00:46:57,356
I remember once there was a

923
00:46:57,356 --> 00:47:00,442
fellowship meal, and we really hadn't
been asked to do much.

924
00:47:00,859 --> 00:47:04,655
And, a family we knew walked in
and they had the spoons and forks,

925
00:47:04,655 --> 00:47:05,656
the plastic ware.

926
00:47:05,656 --> 00:47:08,659
And Deana said,
we haven't even been asked to

927
00:47:09,201 --> 00:47:11,495
provide the church
with spoons and forks yet.

928
00:47:11,495 --> 00:47:13,705
We're really at the bottom of the totem
pole.

929
00:47:13,705 --> 00:47:16,124
And so, it's a blessing.

930
00:47:16,124 --> 00:47:19,461
Anything we can do to get people
when they come in involved.

931
00:47:19,670 --> 00:47:24,091
And we're so glad that we've been able
to be for 10 or 12 years in communities

932
00:47:24,091 --> 00:47:26,385
where they have Mennonite schools,
and we can serve that way.

933
00:47:26,385 --> 00:47:29,096
And we absolutely love it
Because you're both teachers right.

934
00:47:29,096 --> 00:47:30,430
Yeah. Yeah.

935
00:47:30,430 --> 00:47:32,182
So that, that, that part is neat.

936
00:47:32,182 --> 00:47:36,728
But that again
that kind of that perseverance

937
00:47:37,396 --> 00:47:40,232
to, to kind of get through
some of those hurdles like that.

938
00:47:40,232 --> 00:47:43,110
That's hard. You know that's hard.

939
00:47:43,110 --> 00:47:44,653
I wanted to say to that what he was saying

940
00:47:44,653 --> 00:47:46,405
about like figure out
where they can fit in.

941
00:47:46,405 --> 00:47:49,116
Not right away, obviously,
but when they become members.

942
00:47:50,409 --> 00:47:50,909
Just what.

943
00:47:50,909 --> 00:47:51,952
Yeah. What are their gifts?

944
00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:54,538
What what can they
what are they comfortable contributing?

945
00:47:54,538 --> 00:47:56,123
What can they help with?

946
00:47:56,123 --> 00:47:57,583
And again, not as a ministry project.

947
00:47:57,583 --> 00:47:58,667
Well, they can't do anything else.

948
00:47:58,667 --> 00:47:59,960
So we'll let them bring the forks.

949
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:03,338
But figure out how to help people

950
00:48:03,714 --> 00:48:06,717
plug in using the gifts
that God's given them.

951
00:48:07,509 --> 00:48:11,305
I think again the key
I keep coming back to

952
00:48:11,305 --> 00:48:15,225
or thinking through this
as a, as a process for you.

953
00:48:15,225 --> 00:48:17,895
All right. And this is not
something happens overnight.

954
00:48:17,895 --> 00:48:20,480
You know, it's not like
you woke up one day and you know,

955
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,524
found a book on the Amish and you're like,
I want to be like that.

956
00:48:22,524 --> 00:48:25,235
And you join the Mennonite church
next week or so, you know it.

957
00:48:25,235 --> 00:48:26,069
That isn't,

958
00:48:27,821 --> 00:48:30,824
I definitely sounds like that's not
the vibe we're going for.

959
00:48:30,866 --> 00:48:33,952
And that these things take a long time.

960
00:48:34,202 --> 00:48:38,165
And I wonder if some of the challenge is
perhaps we try to rush things a bit.

961
00:48:38,624 --> 00:48:40,584
I don't know, I could be way off.

962
00:48:40,584 --> 00:48:43,629
But it can be a bit easy
to idealize things,

963
00:48:43,629 --> 00:48:46,840
you know, and just think this is going
to be fantastic, and everything's

964
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:47,633
gonna be great and wonderful.

965
00:48:47,633 --> 00:48:50,886
And then suddenly the culture shock,
as you said, you know, is like the

966
00:48:51,261 --> 00:48:54,431
getting dunked in ice water or something
like, whoa, I did not expect this.

967
00:48:54,806 --> 00:48:56,683
I don't know, and I could be wrong.

968
00:48:56,683 --> 00:48:58,101
And every story is different.

969
00:48:58,101 --> 00:49:01,021
But I think with us
it was almost the opposite.

970
00:49:01,021 --> 00:49:04,483
It was like, oh dear, look
what our beliefs line up with.

971
00:49:04,858 --> 00:49:07,527
It wasn't like, oh yeah, we're going to go
play little House on the Prairie.

972
00:49:07,527 --> 00:49:10,989
It was like, oh dear, now what do we do?

973
00:49:11,031 --> 00:49:12,157
Do we want to do this?

974
00:49:12,157 --> 00:49:16,912
This is, you know, and that again,
long term that was a really good thing

975
00:49:16,912 --> 00:49:21,208
because we had to think about do we, do we
is there anywhere else we fit in?

976
00:49:21,667 --> 00:49:23,502
Is this this is what we believe.

977
00:49:23,502 --> 00:49:25,379
This is where we fit in the best.

978
00:49:25,379 --> 00:49:29,758
And that's what we took quite a while
to even once we set foot in an Anabaptist

979
00:49:29,758 --> 00:49:34,346
church to think, oh dear, are we,
are we gonna really do this thing?

980
00:49:34,596 --> 00:49:38,809
And we took a long time and read
a lot and studied a lot and prayed a lot.

981
00:49:39,184 --> 00:49:40,852
The other thing was

982
00:49:40,852 --> 00:49:44,606
that when we first walked in, I know one
of the things we loved was the the music.

983
00:49:44,606 --> 00:49:46,858
We just opened the door and we were
we were late.

984
00:49:46,858 --> 00:49:48,944
Of course,
people from our background are late,

985
00:49:48,944 --> 00:49:51,071
so we opened the door
and we just heard this.

986
00:49:51,071 --> 00:49:52,280
We loved music all our lives.

987
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,616
We met in a music group. We've been
involved in music all our lives.

988
00:49:54,616 --> 00:49:56,535
We heard this beautiful four part sing.

989
00:49:56,535 --> 00:49:58,036
It was like, that is really neat.

990
00:49:58,036 --> 00:50:01,206
But we also there were some things
we noticed the first time.

991
00:50:01,206 --> 00:50:03,583
Oh, look at that, look at that.

992
00:50:03,583 --> 00:50:07,963
And we picked up very quickly
that Anabaptists are not perfect.

993
00:50:08,005 --> 00:50:10,215
None of us are. Nobody is.

994
00:50:10,215 --> 00:50:13,468
But I think some people would always say
to us in the beginning like,

995
00:50:13,468 --> 00:50:16,263
oh, you know, we're not perfect.
And we'd be like, don't worry.

996
00:50:16,263 --> 00:50:20,559
We noticed, you know, we picked that up
in the first five minutes.

997
00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:21,226
You know, we

998
00:50:22,394 --> 00:50:23,103
but again, that

999
00:50:23,103 --> 00:50:26,732
that misconception that you think,
we think that you're perfect, like.

1000
00:50:26,982 --> 00:50:29,985
No. Okay. Yeah.

1001
00:50:30,068 --> 00:50:30,652
I see what you are saying.

1002
00:50:30,652 --> 00:50:32,571
Yeah.

1003
00:50:32,571 --> 00:50:35,615
This, this is quite,
this is quite the story. And

1004
00:50:37,284 --> 00:50:41,580
I think hopefully the piece
that people are taking out of this is,

1005
00:50:41,580 --> 00:50:45,500
is the, the journey and the process,
you know, and going through

1006
00:50:47,252 --> 00:50:50,422
you know it takes time
and finding that place to,

1007
00:50:51,131 --> 00:50:55,844
to plug in what is, what is that
community of believers that you should be.

1008
00:50:55,844 --> 00:50:59,347
You know, I'm saying you
that audience, should join in.

1009
00:50:59,431 --> 00:51:01,850
What is God calling each of us to?

1010
00:51:01,850 --> 00:51:04,811
I think that's and that's
that's the question, you know,

1011
00:51:04,811 --> 00:51:08,482
and I'm sure there's a lot of variation
depending on who it is and where they are.

1012
00:51:08,732 --> 00:51:09,775
And that's the challenge.

1013
00:51:09,775 --> 00:51:13,236
And I think y'all,
you both had some pretty significant

1014
00:51:13,236 --> 00:51:16,573
pieces to add as far as the
you have the doctrinal side, right?

1015
00:51:16,573 --> 00:51:19,576
The beliefs,
but then also the culture element too.

1016
00:51:19,951 --> 00:51:23,038
And, and culture is very complex
and it's very hard

1017
00:51:23,038 --> 00:51:26,416
to understand all the different dynamics
and it's so multifaceted and so forth.

1018
00:51:26,666 --> 00:51:30,962
But hopefully there are some pieces here
that some of the listeners look at.

1019
00:51:31,004 --> 00:51:33,590
Oh, yeah. Okay. I should, I should be,
I should be aware of that.

1020
00:51:33,590 --> 00:51:36,134
You know, so as, as we

1021
00:51:37,636 --> 00:51:40,305
bring this story to a close and,
and tie the,

1022
00:51:40,305 --> 00:51:43,725
the ribbons on the package, so to speak,
what are any closing

1023
00:51:43,725 --> 00:51:46,895
thoughts, words of advice
you'd want to give to the listeners?

1024
00:51:46,937 --> 00:51:49,481
Anything you want to leave us with?

1025
00:51:49,481 --> 00:51:51,191
I honestly don't think there's anything

1026
00:51:51,191 --> 00:51:54,194
more important than serving God

1027
00:51:55,070 --> 00:51:58,240
you know, he says, if you love me,
keep my commandments.

1028
00:51:58,990 --> 00:52:01,660
And, you know, I had a friend once
that said, you know what?

1029
00:52:01,660 --> 00:52:04,454
If I found a better way than this,
I think I'd go.

1030
00:52:04,454 --> 00:52:05,705
And, I mean, I don't want to.

1031
00:52:05,705 --> 00:52:09,751
That sounds trivial, but truly,
I think we should be in churches

1032
00:52:10,377 --> 00:52:13,380
and in communities where that's the goal

1033
00:52:13,588 --> 00:52:18,093
is to, to serve God through Christ
and do what Christ says to do.

1034
00:52:19,344 --> 00:52:22,347
And I agree,
we just come back to that again and again.

1035
00:52:22,347 --> 00:52:24,599
It's obedience.

1036
00:52:24,599 --> 00:52:27,435
If we, if we do love God will obey him.

1037
00:52:27,435 --> 00:52:31,731
His word in whatever way we feel is right.

1038
00:52:32,065 --> 00:52:35,068
we found such joy in that,

1039
00:52:35,694 --> 00:52:38,613
and freedom. Wow.

1040
00:52:38,613 --> 00:52:43,535
Jeff, Deana, thanks for taking the time to
come on today and share your story.

1041
00:52:43,535 --> 00:52:47,956
I really appreciate the openness
and I feel like I learned a lot today.

1042
00:52:47,998 --> 00:52:50,041
So thank you.

1043
00:52:50,041 --> 00:52:51,543
Thanks for having us.

1044
00:52:52,460 --> 00:52:55,714
Thanks for listening to this episode
with Jeff and Dina.

1045
00:52:55,755 --> 00:52:58,842
If you found this interesting,
you enjoy the testimony that we recorded

1046
00:52:58,842 --> 00:53:02,470
with Dean Taylor, which you can find
that linked in the description down below.

1047
00:53:02,721 --> 00:53:04,848
Consider
joining our monthly partner program,

1048
00:53:04,848 --> 00:53:07,684
which you can join
for a monthly gift of any amount.

1049
00:53:07,684 --> 00:53:11,271
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1050
00:53:11,271 --> 00:53:12,606
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1051
00:53:12,606 --> 00:53:15,066
Thanks again
and we'll see you in the next episode.