Hello and welcome to In and Around Podcasting, the inclusive podcast

industry podcast where we highlight powerful podcasting perspectives.

I'm Danny Brown, Head of Podcaster Support on Captivate.

And today I'm running solo while my erstwhile co host Mark is off gallivanting

at Podcast Movement Evolutions in LA.

Not to worry though, we've got two awesome guest co hosts today.

And today we'll be talking about AI in podcasting.

The pros, cons, future, etc.

And as mentioned, I'm joined by two amazing guest co hosts, First is Deidre

Tshien, CEO and co founder of Capsho.

Welcome Deidre.

Thanks for having me, Danny.

I'm so excited for this chat.

I'm looking forward to it.

It's going to be awesome.

And we're also joined by Canadian podcaster and producer

extraordinaire, Kattie Laur.

Kattie, welcome.

Thank you, Danny.

I'm excited to be here.

So I'm really looking forward to this because I know we've got some really

good topics to talk about, and we'll get into that shortly, obviously, with an

announcement that both Apple and YouTube made, and we'll cover that very soon.

But because no one listens to the end of podcast and the skip and the jump

off and somebody stopped talking.

I want you guys to introduce yourself and tell.

Our listeners and viewers who you are and what you do.

So let's start with you.

Deirdre, I mentioned you're at Capsho, who are you and what is Capsho?

Yes.

So Capsho is AI powered software that helps entrepreneurs.

So coaches, consultants, and service providers get clients on their content.

So we can go into a little bit more about what that means later on, but I

just want to debunk the myth of like repurposing your podcast is the way to go.

It's not to say that repurposing isn't good.

It's more like what outcome are you looking for?

And that's what we are so passionate about is how do we actually help

people get an outcome from the content that they're creating.

And I think that's important to, as you say, important to, to differentiate

because a lot of times it's all about how can I repurpose and get stuff out

the door so I'm still shipping while I'm recording and doing all that stuff.

And it's so important to get that differentiation.

So I'm glad you mentioned that for sure Deirdre.

As I mentioned, Canadian, if anybody in the Canadian podcast scene will

know Kattie, but for anybody that is not in the Canadian podcast scene,

who are you and what do you do?

Yeah, so I'm Kattie Laur.

I'm a freelance podcast producer, and I also write a newsletter called Pod

the North, which is a newsletter on Substack for the Canadian podcasting

ecosystem, everyone from indie podcasters to network producers and studios.

So yeah, I release a bi weekly issue.

Talking about things that are happening here and, and spotlighting different

people that are within the space.

So that's what I do.

And now it's kind of led me on this really fun journey of talking about

Canadian podcasting and being a Canadian podcast representative, I guess.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I feel you should have like a Canadian flag behind you and

some music on your intro, etc.

when you're, when we have you on.

I know we spoke last week or the week before for one of your newsletters,

so I'm looking forward to that.

So yeah.

so much.

If you don't know Kattie, she's very much involved in the Canadian

podcasting scene for sure.

So as I mentioned, we are going to be talking about AI in podcasting.

It's still a fairly new concept.

I know Deidre Capsho has been around for a little bit.

But it's still fairly new for a lot of people.

And what brought this episode up was both Apple and YouTube.

So no small, you know, no small deal there.

Have updated their content guidelines to include specific requirements around AI.

Now they're both taking it a little bit of a different approach.

Apple is mentioning that you need any creators using AI to generate a

material portion of the audio must disclose this in the audio metadata.

And there's also misleading use of AI.

For YouTube, it's more about using the likeness of a realistic person

as well as altering footage and news and, you know, create an

alternative versions, I guess, solve.

Real life incidents like a fire or new stories, etc.

So this is quite a big announcement because obviously apple is Arguably

the biggest name in podcasting.

I'm sure Spotify would disagree and YouTube is definitely the biggest name

when it comes to video creation and content so i'm curious from Deidre,

I'd like to start with you, actually, because you're in the, you're the

CEO of an AI, AI Platform, obviously.

What did you make of the Apple and YouTube announcements when they were made?

I was actually not surprised, to be honest.

I, you know, I think we could all see this, you know, happening at some stage.

I think Google actually announced it from a text based perspective, you know, to

that they're going to really penalize.

They didn't really say AI but, you know, they were, it was very

much targeting AI created content.

And, you know, from the very beginning when we launched,

which was in July of 2022, we.

And especially when ChatGPT particularly, you know, it really became this like AI

hype that AI hype cycle really took off.

We knew that all of this was going to come down the pipe.

And so we have always the way that we build and talk about Capsho and talk

about what it is, how it is that we help.

Entrepreneurs, especially those podcasts is all about leaning into the humanness.

And so again, we can go into what that means and looks like, but I am

so, so passionate about the fact that AI cannot and should not, and will

not take away what actually matters to us as humans, which is creating

a connection with other humans.

And so I think if we kind of just.

really lean into the moral ness of what it means to create content,

then we kind of can't go wrong with all of these guidelines and, and

penalty, potential penalties that might come up in content creation.

And I really like the, the moralness wording or phrasing that you

used there, because I feel maybe that's a, an area that is up for discussion a

lot, whether that's from a creator side or professionals in the space and, and

makers of AI tools and platforms is the moral side of, does it replace human?

Does it replace creativity?

Does it X, Y, Z?

Yeah.

And, and often, as you mentioned, that's not the case.

It may be misunderstanding.

Kattie, from a creator point of view and also a producer point of view as well,

to what Deirdre was mentioning, are you finding these kinds of conversations?

come up from the creators you work with and what did you or anybody

you've worked with or what you see on the line, what have they made about

the announcements from Apple and YouTube, anything from their side?

I honestly haven't had this conversation about the announcements much

recently, but the announcements like, like Deirdre, it didn't surprise me at all.

And I think they're, they were inevitable and a good thing to happen.

I think it hopefully keeps the podcasting space.

credible in some way.

I mean, that's a lot to say about podcasting since there

are a lot of different types of podcasters within this industry.

But like Deirdre was saying, like, we know podcasts to be human in nature and

we know them to be authentic in nature.

And once you start to introduce AI in whatever way that might be, then I think

people start to question how authentic a podcast might be at the end of the day.

So having those notifications that there's AI involved in the audio, I think is

going to be really helpful for people to know what exactly they're listening to.

I think transparency is definitely key, but when I'm talking to other podcasters

and podcast producers, the most of the time they're talking about AI, when it

comes to using it in, in the form of like tools that will help them publish

their podcast and creating show notes and things like that, that are the little,

like, Dinky little things that you don't really want to do and I get how that can

be super helpful and it really helps a lot of people make show notes and pages

for their websites and that kind of thing.

That's usually where I hear a lot of people talking about AI and podcasting.

And one of the things that interested me about the, the Apple

and the YouTube announcements is an article you published, I think it was

last year, maybe late last year, Kattie where there was a bit of concern about

potentially AI or sorry, about hackers.

impersonating our voices and content, et cetera using tools like maybe Overdub

that Descript has or similar tools.

I know I watch a YouTube channel called Presidents Play and it's basically AI

representations of Trump, Obama one of the W, one of the Bushes and Clinton,

and they're playing Wii games, Nintendo Wii, and they're all, you know, got

the characters and that, and it's fun.

But they sound exactly like them.

And I'm curious, I mean, obviously Deirdre, you mentioned the moral part.

You know, where does that take shape when it comes to AI and replication

and, and making stuff easier?

And obviously there's a lot of voice actors sharing concerns

about this kind of thing.

Deirdre, I know obviously Capsho is a bit different because you're not into the

The voice replacement and maybe something you're doing down the line, who knows?

But at the moment it's more about the marketing and the content marketing and

helping entrepreneurs and podcasters creators on that side so i'm curious.

Is that a valid concern?

Is that a danger that we could see, you know creativity not stifled but

replaced because we've got so much likeness that you can get to the point

where show notes are replaced you know, blog posts are replaced and you don't

need the human side of it to create.

I okay.

So if, again, if we go back to the bonus and why we're creating content,

like I, you know, I keep saying like, we, we cannot be creating

content just for content sake.

I think that's the thing.

It's like, I call it the content vomit where this is what I saw with, you

know, the AI, it's like, now we can all create content and so much of it.

And why, like, why, why, why do we want to be creating this

much content just for the.

For the sake of it, you know, like, and that's why I always

go back to intentionality.

So if we are really intentional about, okay, I want to create content because

I have a message, a story, I have experiences that I want to share.

I have expertise that I want to share.

That's the human part.

Like that can never be, replaced by AI, because AI, yes, can make up stories,

but they're not your, your story.

Like, and this comes back, you know, there's going to be bad actors,

any, like any kind of new technology that comes about, there's always

gonna be people who will take advantage of it in a negative way.

But there's, I think a lot of people who will look at and be like, no, I

still You know, I'm a really, really cool part of this, and I'm just

going to use technology to, you know, enhance or make myself more efficient.

So what that looks like for me is if we stay true to.

What makes us human, which is our stories and our experience, et cetera.

Like that is what creates our anchor content.

So that's why a lot of us podcasts, right?

We have something that we want to share and the things, you know, definitely

where Capsho plays a part around, you know, amplifying that through

content marketing is it's anchored in that content that came from a human.

You know, you, so if you can start it from.

Your humanness.

And then, by the way, we still say AI is always not, is not going to be perfect.

So you also need to be part of that editing process to make sure that

it is accurately trans, you know translating what it is that you want

to have out there, then the human is involved through the whole process.

When we talk about video, you know, overdubbing and voice, et cetera, like

again, I, when I look at, I, I don't.

Personally see a need for that, unless it's like for really, and I think the

reason why Overdub, like why Descript created something like Overdub to begin

with was really because it's like, Hey, there might be some things that maybe

the, the audio cut off a little bit, or, you know, it's just like small tweaks

that you can then use, you know, your recorded voice to just like smooth over.

That I think is a great use of voice.

AI, but if we're going to do it to like, try to impersonate someone else, or if

we're trying to lean into it because we're afraid that we can't listen to

our voices and our voices sound weird.

So we're just going to like, I don't know, make up another voice or another

video or create, you know, an AI actor.

Like these are things that I'm like.

Again, you go back to what it means to be human and what it means

to be human is being courageous and conquering these fears.

Like that's just a part of any journey that we have.

And so it would be a shame if people look at AI as a way to kind of like

not have to front up to some of their fears and just hit record, you know,

whether it's camera or microphone and just talk about You know, what it is

that they know and, and like, and the message that they want to get out there.

And so I think that's what it, you know, if we just take it back to like,

why is it that we're creating content?

It's all of that stuff, right?

Like we're creating content because we have something that we want to share.

We have an audience that wants to hear that and we want to connect with them.

Why would we use AI to actually try to put those barriers in place to.

Not achieve that outcome.

Yeah, that's that's how I think about it.

Well, it's interesting.

You mentioned the the voice changing.

I know it's weird.

I see some posts on Reddit now and again where it's not weird.

I understand why they're doing it.

Where people want to disguise voice because they want to

be anonymous with a podcast.

They don't want employers to know.

That they're making this podcast or they don't want family members.

It might be an erotic podcast and they don't want family

members to know about, et cetera.

But the part about wanting to change your voice most podcasters don't

like the sound of their own voice.

The first thing you put on a pair of headphones, you think,

do I really sound like that?

Or are you listening back?

So I think there's an opportunity there for fun stuff as well.

You know, where you can really have fun.

I use a road caster pro too.

There's a little toys on their little pads in there.

I can make myself sound like a chipmunk.

So it's, it's, it's fun.

It's it'd be cool stuff to hear someone like that.

Yes.

And then I'll create Kattie, you mentioned something interesting where obviously

you mentioned that a lot of podcast AI at the moment is for the kind of

features that Capsho offers, where it's helping create the kind of marketing,

the content marketing tools and, and.

Stuff that you need.

And I'm wondering, do podcasters almost want a lazy way out?

And that's why sometimes obviously AI is used to help create the content,

but then if a podcaster blames the content because of their So need to push

more content out in the first place.

So then that's a weird catch 22 situation where they're trying

to keep up with other podcasters.

So they need to push out more and more is what are you finding as a, an

indie creator yourself and a producer?

Yeah, I mean, I definitely wouldn't use the

word lazy, that's for sure.

But I would say a lot of indie podcasters have full time jobs, like they are

making podcasts on the side when they also maybe have kids to raise, kids

to bring to soccer practice, dinner to be made, households to maintain.

So I think of AI in the podcasting space as a tool and exactly just that.

And I do think that sometimes there is a need to make content

just for content's sake.

Where specifically if you're thinking around SEO and making sure that your

website is like search engine optimized.

if you've created one for your podcast, which is often said

is a best practice nowadays.

If you've created that and you wanted to make like a blog post that was

in partnership with an episode that you've released, maybe you'd use AI to

be like, okay, ChatGPT, like create a summary of this podcast episode for me.

And then they could sit down and read through it all and maybe

use it as sort of a foundation to build something more off of.

That's something that I would think about doing and using AI for.

So I wouldn't release what AI generates as is.

I would definitely like read through it and add my own like pizzazz

to it and whatever that might be.

But at least it gives you sort of a foundation and makes things

just that much quicker to get to.

And I think eventually.

If people are releasing the AI just as is, like, it'll be obvious it'll

fail, but it might still give you SEO purposes and hit those keywords,

like bring people to your website.

So I think like there is still a need to create content for content

purposes, like content sake.

Sadly.

I don't love that idea, but it's just sort of the nature of the game at this point

where you're thinking about websites.

And that's mainly the tool that I see it used for.

Okay.

Yeah, I think that answers your question.

Well, and I think that ties back to what you were mentioning

yourself, Deidre, where obviously the human aspect still needs to be there.

So whether that's from the, the original input or the ideation and then the

tidy up and the, the, The making it back to your voice afterwards, and

I know Capsho does that really well.

And we'll talk about that very soon for sure one thing i'm real interested in is

because you mentioned it yourself, the moral factor and the responsibilities

With the announcement that obviously Apple and YouTube made and you'd mentioned

yourself that from day one with Capsho You've been very keen on making sure

things are done properly and responsibly, etc So, What responsibilities, if

you like do platforms like Capsho and Descript and other AI tools that

offer different features for users?

What responsibilities do you feel that, that A, based on the announcements

from Apple and YouTube, that Capsho and more has to ensure these are met?

And how do you get that across?

To your, your, your users.

Yeah.

So we I can only talk about Capsho.

I don't know about how I, you know, other, I, and there are some platforms

that I don't agree with and, you know, I have friends, for example, who have

created platforms that are in, you know, the spaces of, you know, AI actors and

creating videos from like an AI generated script and you basically don't have to do.

And.

We're great friends, but I just, I don't agree with that approach.

So unfortunately, you know, it's even things like I do a lot of collaborations

and that's just unfortunately not someone not a product that I can collaborate

with in good conscious because I actually don't agree with that strategy.

So I think that a lot of it is.

Cause we know we're, we're, we have a really great community of Capshovians

and so a lot of it is introducing them to the strategies that we really lean

into that actually gets them results.

So, you know, an example is Katy Brinkley, who is a social media guru.

She talks about her four post social media strategy and why.

I love the four post social media strategy is because again, it's

not content for content's sake.

I mean, yes, you're still creating content, but you're creating content

in order to drive a particular like action, whether that's engagement on

social media or whether that's opt into a lead magnet or into a workshop, right?

Cause we're talking to entrepreneurs here.

And so like, so for me, if I could share these strategies that are very human

led and Hey, AI can, yes, help you.

You know, shortcut and make it way more efficient to.

Give you the base of, for example, these four posts, but one of them, for

example, one of the posts is actually what she calls a community post,

which is all about your story, like, Hey, I cannot actually generate that.

Like it just cannot because it can't, you know, until we have chips

in our brains or whatever, like it actually doesn't know your memories.

It doesn't know your story.

So you actually have to be part of that process to like, Help create that post.

I mean, yes, AI can give you inspiration, which Capsho does do, which is like, Hey,

maybe based on the topic of your podcast, this is the story that you can bring to

life or, you know, it'll give you some ideas, but at the end of the day, it's

still you it still has to be you because.

You're the only one who has that humanness.

And so I've totally gone off topic.

So I'm trying to remember what the original question was, but it was, was

it really around the, the, the moral, like going back to the moralness?

Yeah.

It's really about, as you mentioned the, the users that you have and educating them

about, you know, how to do things properly and what, what Capsho can and can't do.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's all in the So for example, even the blog posts that we create

it's it's, it's really anchored in.

So, you know, the way that we created is like, Hey, the story that was told

on that podcast episode, let's really bring that out, bring that to life.

And then it goes into here, the tips based on that podcast episode, when we

just use like a chat GPT or something to create a blog post, it's kind of going

out to the internet to like, what are all the, what's all the other content

that's out there on this particular topic?

And it brings that in and it's very, It, it gets pretty obvious that it's AI.

And that's what, you know, the likes of Google is starting to crack down on,

which is like, if you're just going to talk about things in generalities, it's

most likely generated by AI, but when you can anchor it in, you know, you

create your anchor content, which is your podcast episode or your YouTube video.

And, you know, then AI, like the way that Capsho does it is it actually

pulls from that to actually create then the base of your blog post,

then that's when it's like, okay.

AI made it more efficient, but it actually still actually leans into humanness

because again, it comes back to, it's your stories and it's your expertise and

it's your step one, step two, step three that wasn't pulled from the internet.

It was actually pulled from your content.

And so for, for me, from a Capsho perspective, it's very much in the

strategies and how we create the content.

It's very much in how we bring the experts into help teach some of these

strategies and help people understand why.

This is important.

Like you're not just creating content just to have content out there.

It's you're creating content for an outcome and you're, and it all

anchors in your starting content.

And that's so important because it's kind of like the whole

rubbish in rubbish out thing.

Like you put actually, yeah.

You're British.

So rubbish is a thing I'm like, I'm just, I'm trying to think

about the, it's like, you know, Americans love to eat like trash.

It's

like, I've

watched,

I've watched American or UK shows.

I've heard the word rubbish.

I'm so used to saying rubbish in rubbish out and

people are like, Oh, rubbish.

You're trash in, trash out, you know?

And so I think, you know, again, if we can really spend our time as humans on the

The anchor content, like everything from a content marketing perspective, the content

that we do create, like what Kattie said, you know, it's still important to do blog

posts, you know, that is still content.

Yes.

But if you can anchor it in your still, you know, I just, is that making sense?

Like the human part of what you're doing?

Yeah.

Then that is actually, you're not just creating content for content sake.

Danny, if I can jump into, I totally forgot to even mention one,

like, massive way that I've been using AI and a ton of fellow producers are is

through creating paper edits for podcasts.

I totally blanked because I didn't even, it occurred to me that it

was AI generated, but it didn't.

Definitely, obviously is but a massive part of production and podcast production

for some of these more like narrative style podcasts that people create is

running your audio through something like Descript and getting the transcript

from that audio and then being able to work from what I call a paper edit.

So you can just work from the, you know, Script rather than from just the waveforms

and piece things together, move things around, build a narrative that way.

So that's like a massive, massive part that a lot of professional

podcast producers are doing to create stuff for their clients.

And then that, I don't know how much you want to dig into it, Danny, but

that's what then leads me to how much AI is capturing and learning our voices.

And that's the part of the AI side that really freaks me out is the security

around that, because as more and more platforms and more and more AI, like,

whatever they are, robots are learning our voices, how much, how secure is

that information, really, like, we have two factor authentication to get into

everything these days, but it really hasn't come down to using our voices

yet and protecting our voices, and as podcasters, that's something that I

worry about a lot is how much our voices are out there for people to, for robots

to learn and then, you know, call up our parents, tell them that they're

holding us ransom for 50, you know, 500, 000 and asking our parents for that.

And I don't know about you guys, but I've already talked to my parents and

established a safe word so that if they ever hear a mysterious phone call from

me, that doesn't sound quite right.

They can ask me what the safe word is.

And if I don't know it, then it's not me.

So, you know, that's it.

That's the, that's the part of the AI side that's really starting to freak

me out specifically for podcasters.

I don't know how much you want to get into that, Danny, but it just

running from the transcription side of things now into the security is

where my head is at with this stuff.

Well, I think as well, it's a, it's a really good point.

I'm sure if my parents got a call asking for 500, 000,

they'd know, nah, you keep them.

You know, maybe worth 5, 000.

You know, UK, British pounds, but after that, you're on your own.

You're not an only child like me, I guess.

No, well, that's true.

That is true.

They'd probably pay more for my sister anyway.

But I know it's a good point.

And part of me is curious about I'm going to use YouTube and Apple here again,

because obviously they were the two companies that made the announcement.

But part of me is curious how much involvement they will have

in the protection side as well.

I know they put the guidelines out and the requirements now, et cetera, that

creators especially have to adhere to, and which would tie back to companies

like Capshure, and from the creator side whatever platform they're using.

But there needs to, for me anyway, I feel there needs to be some, some form of, you

know, protection on the end platform side.

I know, like, YouTube and Spotify has the content copyright or

copyright infringement call outs, so you've got strikes, etc.

on YouTube, if you're found to use.

You know, audio that doesn't belong to your video, etc.

But there's so many creators don't care because it's far and far, few

and far between that you actually see people getting copyright strikes.

Spotify does seem to do a lot better.

They're very, obviously I'm at Captivate.

So we do see some copyright strikes coming in and I'm

speaking to people at other hosts.

We know that Spotify are very on the ball when it comes to protecting copyright.

But I wonder if that's something that the end platforms can

also adhere to and protect.

Is there a way that, you know, creators can upload samples that

are specific or, as you mentioned, you know, safe words, etc.

Deirdre, from a platform point of view, how do you feel on the end

platform, like the destination?

What do you feel their responses, their responsibilities might be

to protect creators, which in turn would, you know, help protect?

You know, platforms like yourself.

Yeah, that's a tough one to answer, if I'm going to be honest,

because I think we all know that as creators, unfortunately we do take a risk.

Like we, it's kind of like, you know, when singers or actors become famous and then

they resent fame, it's kind of like, well.

You can't, you can't really comes with it, right?

Like it's, it's kind of, it's, it's a little bit of the same thing

where, you know, as creators, I think we have to acknowledge that there

is going to be a risk that comes with what it is that we're doing.

It's just part of it.

Any job, right?

There's always going to be a risk in some way.

But I think what Kattie's saying and doing is, is really smart.

It's like, how do we, as again, like, how do we think about what

those risks could be and how do we mitigate them in the best way possible?

So to answer your question, I'm like, I do think that the platforms

will have a responsibility.

But I don't know whether we can say it's all on their shoulders

because that's also probably A, not realistic, but also probably, you

know, not, not, not fair as well.

Given that we've chosen to create, we've chosen to put our images out there.

We've chosen to put our.

Voices out there.

It's a risk that we have to take.

I think that's a fair comment.

It's there's three sides, isn't there?

Well, there's not three sides.

There's two sides, but there's three sides in this equation.

There's obviously the, the platforms like Capsho that help with the creation.

There's a creator that then creates, and then there's the end platform

that then distributes and publishes.

I think we probably all need to have our own slice of responsibility.

And mitigate as much as we can for our side.

And that is a great point that you brought up, Kattie, about, you know,

where does our responsibility start and, and, and where does, where does

the, the viable sense of like worry, you know, the understandable sense of

worry start and where can we maybe Not cut it off, but maybe be understanding,

okay, I can only do so much and then I know they can only do so much as well.

I think, like, also, like, let's just compare this to climate change.

Why don't we?

Because AI regulation is going to be something that's massive over the

next couple of years that the entire world is going to be dealing with.

So, you know, us as content creators, we can do our best

to recycle, use our green bins.

And, try and protect ourselves and be green at home, let's say, or try and

protect ourselves from AI completely ruining our lives personally.

But then we also have like public companies, like, you know, Spotify, Apple

Podcasts, they are public companies, they can do, or private companies,

sorry, they can do whatever they want, they don't necessarily have to.

to regulate this.

They don't necessarily have to have these flags that tell people they

just, you know, it's best practice that they do so that things don't go

chaotic and haywire on their platforms.

But they don't have to do any of this stuff.

So then where does that leave us, right?

We are all existing within the internet and that basically is like a country

in a universe on its own that the internet isn't really regulated.

It's regulated in some capacities in Canada.

It's regulated differently around the world.

Like Danny and I are in Canada.

Deidre, I don't know if you're in Canada.

I don't think you are, but it's a wild, wild west out

here.

Yeah.

So like things are going to get pretty chaotic and I think it is probably a

good idea for, these private companies like Apple and Spotify and Google to

come together and start talking about how they're going to deal with AI regulation

as a collective rather than separately.

And that's going to take, you know, governments to kind of crack down on that.

And, you know, nobody likes government crackdowns.

That's just always something people are always complaining about,

regardless of what country you live in.

So it's a big, big deal.

big conversation where, you know, maybe there aren't two sides, there

are like three sides, four sides, five sides to this that is really

going to have to deal with it.

So right now, all podcasters can do is just do the best to use, you know,

their green bins and try and be as eco friendly as they possibly can because

it's really coming down to how the rest of the world and these things work.

big companies that pretty much rule our worlds are gonna help regulate this

stuff before it starts to screw us over.

It's a classic case of technology.

Technology always grows faster before, way faster than

governments are regular, ready for.

And usually it's a matter of it's too late for us to create these

regulations that will protect us all.

Look at climate change.

So, This is why, this is like, why I get a bit nervous about these things,

because when it comes down to the individual protecting themselves, it's,

it doesn't seem like it's doing much at the end of the day, you know, like how a

safe word is a great thing for now, but like, what the heck happens after this?

Well, I wonder if that's an opportunity for platforms like

Capsho and others in the AI space to, to lead that conversation.

I know from a podcast hosting point of view all the podcasts or

some, the majority of the podcast hosts work with the podcast 2.

0 initiative and open index and to improve that RSS feed and make podcasts

more accessible and interactive and beneficial to the audience.

The audience, and I feel that's a great example where the likes of

Deirdre Capsho could sit down, you know, to carry his points about fears

that indie creators have about tools, et cetera, and protecting their,

their, their work and then their voice and their likeness, et cetera.

That feels like it's a really good opportunity for the likes of

Capsho to lead that conversation and lead that initiative.

Yeah, I was about to, yeah, because I totally agree

that, you know, at some point the government will have to step in.

But as we all know, it's a slow moving beast.

And and so I think with everything exactly what Kattie said, it's like the

private sector does have to step in.

It always leads the way because it's just more agile and, you

know, it's not bound by politics.

Essentially North

America, it's

capitalism.

It's always

leading the way,

which is why I think we are seeing the pockets like, you know,

you know, Apple and YouTube and Google and stuff like stepping in and going,

okay, well, this is what we can do.

Given what we know now, you know, we can at least try to do this in

our, you know, little universe.

And I think that that will start to broaden the conversation out to other.

So I used to, I grew up in Australia, I live in the States now, and I used

in my corporate life, I used to be in banking and I remember in Australia,

that's kind of how it happened.

It was like, you know, one bank would, you know, Or, you know, it'd be a

conversation to be like, Hey, we're thinking of doing this, you know, at

the time it was something like payments, payment rails and things like that.

And then it would start to be like, Oh, the other banks kind of caught on and be

like, Hey, well, why don't we just have this and, you know, create a bit of a.

Working group around this.

And so I, I do see that, that, that is going to happen where more and more,

you know, again, I don't know about social media platforms because they

don't really like to play with each other, but there will be, you know, to

your point, Danny likes more and more private companies getting together

and being like, okay, well, how can we start to ourselves regulate that?

create some kind of regulation around this.

And then it's like, then the government will step in and, and,

and, and kind of take that forward.

Yeah.

And as indie podcasters, you have to have a lot of faith in hoping that that will

happen because there's really no incentive for private companies to work together.

So it's kind of like hoping that capitalism will have a little bit of

like socialism within it, which, you know, I don't think we've ever seen

anything like that in our lifetime.

So it's kind of like a cross your fingers and hope for the best kind of thing.

And, and unfortunately, like, again, it's, it's a very, you know,

there's Elon Musk, I mean, he's, The picture, you talk about capitalism,

like there is no one more capitalist than someone like an Elon Musk.

And you know, he can talk all and, and we can look at it differently, right?

Like some people who love what he's doing is like, yes, he's trying to

change the world for the better through X, Y, Z, you know you know, with these

neural chips, he will be able to help people with, you know, neurological

diseases and, and other things like that.

Great.

You know, but on the other side, it's like, Oh, you know, there is no

faster way to, you generality than, you know, what it is that he's doing.

Right.

Like it is.

So there's two sides to every story.

So I think that's the other risk that we are taking is that because

capitalism is at the end of it, like it's about money, money talks.

So whoever has the most money is going to essentially be the one that.

Yeah.

You know, like is going to do either a lot of the good thing or

the bad thing, depending on which, you know, on which side you fall.

So I think it's, yeah, it's, it's a really tough one.

It is exactly like climate change, you know, again, money talks there, right?

Like you've got businesses and like, who don't want to do anything because it's

all about short term profit, you know?

But then you will have other people who are like businesses and, and

who actually see the longer term.

So.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a great analogy because I think that's exactly where

we're going to find ourselves, which is this like battle of, well, you know,

there's a lot of short term profit that can come from AI without sight, with

no sight of what it is going to mean longer term for generations to come.

One of the things that I do want to have from both of you is, there's

obviously, this is like a conversation that could last for hours and hours.

There's so many depths and nuances to it.

It will never end.

It's been a real enjoyable conversation.

I could chat for hours with you.

So far, we've been obviously addressing maybe the questions that are, you know,

arise from AI, whether that's from an end user point of view, a creator point

of view, a platform point of view, etc.

But there's also obviously, there's huge amounts of solutions and

Kattie, you'd mentioned a cool little thing that you do with the paper.

You know, AI the paper episodes.

So I'll start with you as a creator an indie creator, indie podcaster.

Kattie, what are some of the cool things that you've.

done are doing with AI that, that really helps you?

I will say like a big part of what I've been trying to do is

make sure that every single episode that I produce has a transcript.

That's like a massive thing, not just for SEO, but for accessibility.

And that's something that I really care about, regardless of if

the platforms actually make it.

transcripts available.

Shout out to Apple Podcasts for finally launching that, which

I did talk to somebody who was like, this is really awesome.

But anyway, AI has made making those transcripts really, really easy.

Even if they don't necessarily get every single word right, they're normally about

like, I don't know, 99 percent correct.

And because I'm Canadian, pretty much I'm always seeing

about transcribed into a boat.

So usually I'm fixing that.

But that's been super helpful and it's able, it's, I can get a transcript done,

generated within a matter of minutes.

And then I can sit back and listen to my podcast and read the transcription

and make those corrections within the length of my podcast, which is always a

best practice anyway, because you just.

I always want to listen to the last edit that you've done, just in case,

so that's been really, really helpful for me to make sure that I can make my

podcast accessible and I would recommend anybody use those tools for that for sure.

Definitely.

And there's such a huge population as well that have, you know, that

have, that are hard of hearing.

But even, I know Ariel Nissenblatt mentioned recently on Twitter, even

if she's on the subway and a noisy subway, she can't hear the podcast

episode transcripts are ideal because now you can still read while you've

got that little bit of audio going on.

So transcripts are huge for sure.

And Deirdre, I know Capsho has evolved.

Since your initial, you know briefing when you first co created it.

Yes.

What are some of the cool things?

Because obviously you work with not only podcasters and creators, but

entrepreneurs and it goes beyond, you know, just simple say show notes and etc.

That some AI tools do.

So I'm real curious about, What's Capsho seen as really cool use of your platform

and AI in general from that side?

From it?

Yeah.

So we are content marketing nerds.

Like that's just kind of what we, what we do day in and day out.

And I think it's, you know, Even the reason why Capsho came about, if I'm

going to be honest, is because even when I had a coaching business, I,

that was when I had my first podcast and I did not realize that you have to

actually market your content, which is like the most counterintuitive thing.

Right?

Yeah.

Like you go like, but surely the publish, the act of publishing

is the marketing itself.

Right.

And it's like unfortunately it's not.

And one of my good friends, from the Biz Bros put it really well

where it's like, An hour that you spend on creating content, you

need to spend an hour marketing it.

That's really the only way that you're going to be able to get

yourself see, get any visibility.

And so, you know, that's kind of like what we are so passionate at

Capsho to really help solve, which is how do we actually effectively.

Market, not only our content, because the content is like the

gateway to our businesses, right.

To, to us.

And so it's so important to actually do that.

And that's, that's what we that's what we love using AI for.

So things that we're leaning into is so Capsho, we're actually,

that's why I kind of asked you, Danny, when is this going live?

Because we're literally in the next couple of weeks about to launch

Capsho next gen, which is it's a self, a self learning platform.

Cool.

So the more that you edit inside of it, the more that it's going to learn, you

know, your tone of voice the way that you like to structure, whether it's your show

notes or your social media captions or your LinkedIn articles, things like that.

But it actually makes the editing.

So we want the human to interact with their content and their content

marketing, but we also want to make it a really, really easy and seamless.

Process.

So it's how can we actually create editing tools in there, like summarizing,

expanding and you know, even negative words or positive words, or, you

know, this is how I spell about, you know, like you know, yeah, making that

editing process really, really easy.

It's all self learning.

And it's going to be really intelligent around, you know, for example,

this is the catalogue of topics or things that you've spoken about.

I can now create more content off the back of that because I've gone like, Oh,

actually I want to talk about this topic.

And I can now reference these past topics I've spoken about because

that's what AI is going to help us do.

Right?

Like it's actually an extension now of us.

It's a robot on our shoulders that can actually, that has the capacity

to remember things and recall things that we as humans can't

and be like, Hey, if you're going to create content on this thing.

Here are some other threads that you can pull on that you've

already spoken about in the past.

And this is how you can actually convert that into more content marketing assets.

So that's where we're looking to go with, with Capsho as well.

Okay, and that's Capsho 2.

0, right?

Next Gen is 2.

0 was, yeah, it was last year's, that was last year's story, Danny.

Okay, my bad.

I will edit this part out.

I just wanted to add too Deirdre, you made me think of something that I

and I think one of the things that we just came across recently that's been

super helpful in terms of the marketing side of things is here on Riverside.

After you've done your recording, if you've been recording video and audio it

has this thing I think called Magic Clips, and so if you click it, it'll generate

a bunch of, like, lengthwise clip, video clips that you can use for, like, TikToks.

Instagram reels and that kind of thing.

It'll provide the little captions and you can also upload like a little logo

if you'd like to, and just have that in the corner, place it wherever you'd like.

Oh my God, that's made my life so easy.

It's so great having that capability to do that for the marketing side of things,

because realistically, like we are seeing podcast clips on Instagram reels, YouTube

shorts Tik TOK and that kind of thing.

And having the ability to do that without having to do anything else.

Any video editing at all has been really nice.

The clips that it picks sometimes are completely off and you're like,

I don't know why you picked this.

And sometimes you just have to forego that.

But so far it's been pretty helpful.

So far.

I think that's where AI definitely you know, for, for the podcasters

like myself, like you, Kattie the time saving feature on and so on.

Obviously we still have to put the work in and make sure it's correct

and relevant to what we are doing.

But the time saving feature alone as a benefits is, it's just.

You know, even if you just use one little piece of the AI pie.

So, as I mentioned, I could speak for hours about this.

But we will start wrapping up soon.

However, before we do that, there are a couple of little segments that we

normally have for fun on the show.

Just to mix things up a little bit and end on a little bit of positivity as well.

So, the first part, maybe not so much positivity, but it's, it's a, a

little part of ours that we call this.

Now, we're all in the podcasting space.

We're all in the creator space and we know that there's all these,

there's always little snippets or advice online or something you see

posted or mentioned somewhere you think, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

So I just put a call out this week actually about, you know, what are

podcasters doing a lot of online that they just feel, no, no, please don't say that's

not correct or it might not be correct.

So I'd love to get your input on this one.

And that's to succeed in podcasting, you have to do video.

If you don't do video, you're not creating properly.

What do you think?

I mean, wrong.

That's totally wrong.

I mean, how many podcasts have we seen that are like award winners, massively

popular podcasts that are audio only?

Like, let's look at the top 10 of podcasts in Apple Podcasts in Spotify.

Those are all audio only, narrative style podcasts, investigative style podcasts.

Like, come on.

No.

All right.

So Kattie's not a fan of that.

How about yourself, Deidre?

Yay, nay, somewhere in-between.

Oh, I mean, it's a very definitive, I think I just take

issue with the fact that with how definitive the statement is, because

I don't, I, I, that's not the case.

But I do think that for a segment of people, if your audience is video

first then, then that applies to you.

Like, you know, like if they're going to be on YouTube, then that applies to you.

But.

Yeah.

You know, a lot of narrative style, like the, like that just will

probably will not work on video.

But if you have more of a, how to more of a a very interactive you know,

interview style podcasts and maybe video makes sense to, to be on there.

So, yeah, I think it's just the issue issue with the definitiveness, but I

would say that for people where you have to be audience first you know, if

they're on there, then yeah, That will, yeah, you have to be on video then.

So maybe this whole static image on YouTube isn't such a great

idea for an audio only podcast.

As long as we look cute.

Exactly.

Yeah, take a good screenshot.

Yeah.

And one thing I do want both of you to have a say on, cause I, I know,

like we've been talking today about AI and it's, as mentioned, a conversation

it could go for hours and hours and offered a lot of questions, a lot of

answers, which is awesome, but I do.

Want to finish on something where it's just all positivity.

And that is our, so we know there can be some negativity and trolls,

et cetera, in the space and in, in any creator space really.

So what we want to do with this part of the show with The Flattering

Ram is just have our guest shine a light on someone, something,

anything that they feel is doing good things in podcasting and creation.

In AI tool creation, etc.

So, Kattie, I'm going to ask you first again so we can get the about and

about correctly transcribed for you.

It's actually about.

About.

I've not been in Canada long enough to pronounce that properly.

So Kattie.

Who's your flatterer?

What's your flattering ram?

I wanted to shout out a newsletter.

I'm clearly a newsletter fan.

It is called Sounds like impact.

It's a really great newsletter.

That is combining audio and action.

So every issue They highlight a certain theme that needs a call to

action in the world whether that be climate change Feminism all sorts of

things like that and it highlights a bunch of podcasts that are within that

space where people can learn more.

And it's a really great newsletter.

I think everybody should check it

out.

Awesome.

It sounds awesome.

And Deidre, how about yourself?

What is your, who's your flattering ram?

Yes.

So I, I'm sure that your, a lot of your listeners probably know

this person, but Alex Sanfilippo, who is the co founder of Podmatch.

I call him Mr.

Podcast because he's like so passionate about helping indie podcasters.

Thrive, survive and thrive in, because it's not an easy thing that.

We do here.

You know, like it sounds easy getting into it, but then once you realize just

how much it gets put into, not only the actual production workflow, but then, as

I said, like the marketing of it, it's.

It's a lot.

And so he's created a really great resource called PodScore where podcasters

can actually figure out where they're kind of where, where their superpower

is lean into that, but then also work out, you know, if they wanted to work

on some, like, I don't really want to call them gaps, but you know, some,

some things that they could make better, be even better in then there's

there's some resources that he actually shares, I can help them with that.

So incredibly.

cool resource.

Alex is doing really great things in this space.

So yeah, he's, I'm going to shout him out.

That's a good shout.

I know Alex, we met him last year in Denver at the Podcast Movement

and I used PodMatch for the longest time when I had a guest podcast.

So yeah, great shows and we'll be sure to leave them either in the podcast.

Podcast show notes, if you're on audio or in the YouTube description, if

you're modern and watching on YouTube.

Since we asked about video and this should be stuff in podcast, and this is a proper

video, it's not just a static image.

So thank you for both of these flattering rams.

We'll be sure to leave the links in all the right places.

Before we do wrap up, finally for anybody that wants to connect

with yourself, do you, do you find out more about Capsho, et cetera?

Where's the best place for that?

Yes.

So as I said, we're about to launch if this might even go

live while we're in launch mode.

So I'll direct people to club.

Capsho.

com.

So that's C L U B.

Capsho.

com.

We have, we are launching with a.

It's literally going to be like 20 percent of the price that it's going to become.

So yeah, for anyone who wants to get in on the ground floor of what

we're, some really cool things that we're doing now with Capsho Next

Gen, then yeah, head over to club.

Capsho.

com.

Awesome.

I will make sure to include that too.

And Kattie, how about yourself?

I'm you'd mentioned Pod The North, where can people find you?

connect with you, et cetera, and learn more about your awesome Canadian ness.

So you can find me, basically you just go to podthenorth.

com.

And once you're there, you'll be able to find a little about page

where you can find my website.

But it's also, Also, if you are subscribed to the newsletter, if you reply right

to it, it'll go right to my inbox.

So that just goes right to me.

So you can get in touch with me that way.

And then I'll, finally, I'll just shout out my new podcast,

Canardian is coming out next week.

And if you like it, it's a show all about gossiping about Canadian hometowns.

And my information will be in the show notes there too, if

you find the podcast on Spotify.

Perfect.

Awesome.

And we will definitely include all that too.

So again, thank you for appearing today and talking and sharing your

wisdom about AI and podcasting.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you, Danny.

Thank you.

So this has been another episode of In and Around Podcasting.

And I think you'll agree it's been an awesome, awesome discussion.

If you want to get more episodes and catch up with new episodes as

they come out, be sure to follow for free at inandaroundpodcasting.

com forward slash listen.

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Until the next time, keep podcasting and keep asking questions.