1 00:00:00,583 --> 00:00:01,833 What is forgiveness? 2 00:00:01,833 --> 00:00:03,666 When should it be given? 3 00:00:03,666 --> 00:00:05,791 And how does the Bible illustrate it? 4 00:00:11,833 --> 00:00:13,583 Roseanne, thank you for joining us 5 00:00:13,583 --> 00:00:16,333 for this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. 6 00:00:16,541 --> 00:00:16,583 for this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. 7 00:00:17,416 --> 00:00:21,041 On two previous occasions, you joined us for a conversation 8 00:00:21,333 --> 00:00:24,958 or for two conversations about abuse, and you gave us an overview 9 00:00:24,958 --> 00:00:28,958 of how churches have responded to abuse, both in the past and the present. 10 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:32,250 And you helped us to think about how to help those around us 11 00:00:32,250 --> 00:00:35,250 when we learn that they have been experiencing abuse. 12 00:00:36,291 --> 00:00:39,291 After hearing these conversations, some in our audience 13 00:00:39,291 --> 00:00:42,291 nudged us to speak more about forgiveness. 14 00:00:42,625 --> 00:00:46,125 And they were specifically addressing the concern that if an abuser 15 00:00:46,125 --> 00:00:49,291 experiences ongoing consequences for their actions, 16 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,333 that they have not been properly receiving forgiveness. 17 00:00:54,875 --> 00:00:56,583 So in this episode, we want to address 18 00:00:56,583 --> 00:01:00,166 what forgiveness is, how the Bible illustrates it. 19 00:01:00,625 --> 00:01:05,041 And then I think you plan to share what forgiveness has meant for you. 20 00:01:06,583 --> 00:01:06,916 So to 21 00:01:06,916 --> 00:01:10,666 begin, let's think about the definition of forgiveness. 22 00:01:10,666 --> 00:01:13,666 Or what does forgiveness even mean? 23 00:01:13,708 --> 00:01:15,958 That question has been answered 24 00:01:15,958 --> 00:01:20,166 by a lot of people from a lot of different perspectives. 25 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,291 Some of them have done a far more in-depth study than I have, 26 00:01:24,875 --> 00:01:27,541 but let me just give you a few clarifications 27 00:01:27,541 --> 00:01:30,833 of what I mean when I talk about forgiveness. 28 00:01:31,875 --> 00:01:33,166 forgiveness is not forgetting. 29 00:01:33,166 --> 00:01:36,041 forgiveness is not forgetting. 30 00:01:36,625 --> 00:01:40,500 There are a lot of scriptures that talk about God remembering our sins 31 00:01:40,500 --> 00:01:43,625 no more removing them far from us, 32 00:01:44,125 --> 00:01:46,791 making us white as snow, and so on. 33 00:01:46,791 --> 00:01:49,541 But not forgetting 34 00:01:49,541 --> 00:01:53,375 God is choosing, not to mention our sins to us again. 35 00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:58,375 God is choosing not to exact revenge on us. 36 00:01:59,666 --> 00:02:03,750 God is choosing to remove record of our sins from outstanding debt. 37 00:02:04,958 --> 00:02:06,875 But I don't think there's scripture that says God 38 00:02:06,875 --> 00:02:11,166 forgets in the sense that he has no memory of our former sins. 39 00:02:12,458 --> 00:02:14,291 There is a scripture where Paul talks 40 00:02:14,291 --> 00:02:17,291 about forgetting those things which are behind in Philippians, 41 00:02:17,916 --> 00:02:20,541 but he seems to be referring to forgetting 42 00:02:20,541 --> 00:02:23,791 his own efforts to achieve righteousness, 43 00:02:24,166 --> 00:02:28,166 rather than forgetting the fact that he was a sinner saved by grace. 44 00:02:29,666 --> 00:02:33,916 We also don't repeatedly practice communion 45 00:02:34,250 --> 00:02:39,083 because we or God have forgotten the price he paid to forgive our sins. 46 00:02:39,541 --> 00:02:42,500 We're celebrating the sacrifice he made so that our sins 47 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:45,500 could be forgiven. 48 00:02:45,541 --> 00:02:46,750 forgiveness 49 00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:50,666 also is not denying, minimizing, 50 00:02:50,666 --> 00:02:53,708 or excusing another person's sin against us. 51 00:02:54,750 --> 00:02:58,875 When Jesus was forgiving sin, he didn't typically say, oh, that's okay. 52 00:02:58,916 --> 00:03:01,000 We all sin sometimes. 53 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,791 Or I understand you were under a lot of stress at the time. 54 00:03:06,166 --> 00:03:06,541 He would 55 00:03:06,541 --> 00:03:10,000 typically say your sins are forgiven 56 00:03:10,791 --> 00:03:14,666 and then give direction to go forth a changed person. 57 00:03:15,250 --> 00:03:18,333 There was no minimizing or excusing 58 00:03:18,333 --> 00:03:21,333 in the forgiveness. 59 00:03:21,583 --> 00:03:24,583 Forgiveness is not a feeling. 60 00:03:25,291 --> 00:03:27,541 Psychology today defines forgiveness 61 00:03:27,541 --> 00:03:30,541 as a release of resentment or anger. 62 00:03:31,750 --> 00:03:34,416 And although part of forgiveness 63 00:03:34,416 --> 00:03:37,958 is recognizing our feelings about the sin and the sinner 64 00:03:38,250 --> 00:03:42,791 and releasing them to God for healing, for sure, forgiveness in Scripture 65 00:03:43,458 --> 00:03:46,958 is more of a transaction between two parties 66 00:03:47,458 --> 00:03:50,458 than a release of feelings by one party. 67 00:03:51,166 --> 00:03:54,166 Scripture talks about confronting the sinner. 68 00:03:55,041 --> 00:03:57,083 Confession by the sinner. 69 00:03:57,083 --> 00:03:58,666 Repentance. 70 00:03:58,666 --> 00:04:01,416 Forgiveness by the one sinned against, 71 00:04:01,416 --> 00:04:04,416 and then the forging of a new path forward. 72 00:04:04,916 --> 00:04:09,250 This is a transaction, a process, not a feeling. 73 00:04:10,083 --> 00:04:13,416 In fact, forgiveness is more often a choice to obey 74 00:04:13,416 --> 00:04:17,583 God rather than because we wake up one day feeling in a forgiving mood. 75 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:20,791 Saying to someone 76 00:04:20,791 --> 00:04:23,500 you need to forgive me 77 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:26,666 is like saying you need to love me. 78 00:04:28,041 --> 00:04:31,791 God does command us to love one another and forgive one another. 79 00:04:32,708 --> 00:04:35,708 But neither of these is scripturally 80 00:04:35,791 --> 00:04:38,791 based on feelings. 81 00:04:39,333 --> 00:04:41,291 And the fourth thing I think of 82 00:04:41,291 --> 00:04:46,541 when I think of what forgiveness is not, is reconciliation 83 00:04:46,541 --> 00:04:49,708 or restoration to a former state. 84 00:04:50,583 --> 00:04:54,666 This is probably where most of the questions about forgiveness have arisen. 85 00:04:55,666 --> 00:04:58,666 Is forgiveness the same as reconciliation? 86 00:04:59,333 --> 00:05:02,791 Again, we might not all mean the same thing 87 00:05:02,791 --> 00:05:05,791 when we say reconciliation. 88 00:05:07,166 --> 00:05:09,916 I mentioned previously that when Jesus forgave, 89 00:05:09,916 --> 00:05:13,500 he did not say, return to your former ways. 90 00:05:15,250 --> 00:05:20,375 Okay, so the forgiven sinner should not return to their former ways. 91 00:05:20,375 --> 00:05:23,375 Repentance means turning from your sin. 92 00:05:24,416 --> 00:05:27,541 How then can we encourage the one forgiving, 93 00:05:28,208 --> 00:05:31,625 to return to their former relationship with the one who sinned? 94 00:05:32,583 --> 00:05:33,375 Forgiveness is 95 00:05:33,375 --> 00:05:36,375 not restoration to a former state, 96 00:05:36,791 --> 00:05:40,250 but transformation into something new that glorifies God. 97 00:05:40,666 --> 00:05:43,916 The former sinful relationship didn't. 98 00:05:46,750 --> 00:05:49,583 So that's what forgiveness is not. 99 00:05:49,583 --> 00:05:51,125 What is it? 100 00:05:51,125 --> 00:05:53,708 How do we define it? 101 00:05:53,708 --> 00:05:56,708 For me, it's a commitment 102 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:01,791 not to dwell on the injury mentally thinking about it all the time, 103 00:06:02,708 --> 00:06:04,875 not to bring it up and accuse 104 00:06:04,875 --> 00:06:07,875 the other person with it ever again, 105 00:06:07,875 --> 00:06:11,583 and not to bring it up to others to gossip about it. 106 00:06:12,875 --> 00:06:15,875 This doesn't mean you won't ever think about it again. 107 00:06:15,958 --> 00:06:18,958 You won't forget as soon as you forgive. 108 00:06:18,958 --> 00:06:21,958 It's about choosing not to dwell on it. 109 00:06:22,291 --> 00:06:26,083 You might not feel much release or peace either, initially. 110 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,125 You'll need to choose this commitment 111 00:06:29,125 --> 00:06:32,333 over and over and ask God to help you with it. 112 00:06:34,625 --> 00:06:37,083 If it's not possible 113 00:06:37,083 --> 00:06:41,625 to confront the one who sinned against you due to death or other circumstances, 114 00:06:42,041 --> 00:06:45,083 you can prepare your heart between you and God 115 00:06:45,541 --> 00:06:49,791 to make that commitment, not to actively remember anymore 116 00:06:50,083 --> 00:06:53,083 or talk about it in terms of a debt owed to you. 117 00:06:55,208 --> 00:06:58,208 I think that's my best attempt to define forgiveness. 118 00:06:58,833 --> 00:07:00,250 That's good. That's very good. 119 00:07:00,250 --> 00:07:02,666 Thank you. 120 00:07:02,666 --> 00:07:02,750 Thank you. 121 00:07:02,750 --> 00:07:07,041 In a previous conversation with us, that you did called Responding to Abuse, 122 00:07:07,041 --> 00:07:10,333 which we would encourage our audience to listen to if you haven't yet. 123 00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:14,416 you encourage us to look into the stories of Scripture 124 00:07:14,416 --> 00:07:17,416 where characters experienced forgiveness. 125 00:07:18,333 --> 00:07:22,291 Can you share a story or two with us from the Bible where somebody 126 00:07:22,291 --> 00:07:27,916 experienced forgiveness, particularly in light of the ongoing consequences? 127 00:07:29,625 --> 00:07:31,083 Okay, so 128 00:07:31,083 --> 00:07:35,833 one of the Bible's overarching themes is humanity's 129 00:07:35,833 --> 00:07:39,500 fall into sin and God's plan of redemption. 130 00:07:39,875 --> 00:07:43,500 So forgiveness is found all over in Scripture. 131 00:07:44,208 --> 00:07:46,625 It it's all about God's forgiveness 132 00:07:46,625 --> 00:07:49,625 for us and ours for one another. 133 00:07:50,166 --> 00:07:53,625 Because this particular episode is framed in the context 134 00:07:53,625 --> 00:07:59,333 of something like sexual abuse, I think of David and Bathsheba story. 135 00:08:00,416 --> 00:08:03,875 The Bible tells us that David stayed at home in his palace 136 00:08:03,875 --> 00:08:06,958 in Jerusalem while his troops went out to battle, 137 00:08:07,916 --> 00:08:10,458 as he was walking around on his palace roof. 138 00:08:10,458 --> 00:08:12,625 He saw a woman bathing. 139 00:08:12,625 --> 00:08:15,916 He sent for her to be brought to his palace and he slept with her. 140 00:08:16,333 --> 00:08:18,541 Then he sent her back home. 141 00:08:18,541 --> 00:08:22,166 I can only imagine that he expected that no one would ever know about this. 142 00:08:23,625 --> 00:08:24,708 Some have 143 00:08:24,708 --> 00:08:27,708 talked a lot about the sin of Bathsheba. 144 00:08:27,708 --> 00:08:30,000 She shouldn't have been bathing where David could see her. 145 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,125 She should have stayed away, etc. etc. 146 00:08:34,291 --> 00:08:37,250 this feels to me like an attempt to deviate 147 00:08:37,250 --> 00:08:40,250 from the intent of the entire scripture passage. 148 00:08:40,458 --> 00:08:44,458 The story is about David, anything said about Bathsheba's 149 00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:47,500 responsibility or lack thereof is conjecture. 150 00:08:48,625 --> 00:08:52,458 When David received word that Bathsheba was with child, 151 00:08:52,833 --> 00:08:55,833 he had her husband killed to try to cover up his sin. 152 00:08:56,666 --> 00:08:59,666 This was a man who knew God's law. 153 00:09:00,083 --> 00:09:02,875 A man who knew that adultery was punishable 154 00:09:02,875 --> 00:09:05,875 by stoning and murder was punishable by death. 155 00:09:06,833 --> 00:09:09,875 But David required a confrontation by the prophet Nathan 156 00:09:09,916 --> 00:09:12,916 before he was willing to admit his sin. 157 00:09:13,791 --> 00:09:17,958 If you read Psalm 51, you get a picture of David's 158 00:09:17,958 --> 00:09:21,833 heartfelt confession, repentance, and sorrow for his sin. 159 00:09:23,208 --> 00:09:26,208 You asked about ongoing consequences. 160 00:09:26,208 --> 00:09:29,208 Second Samuel 12:11-14 161 00:09:29,541 --> 00:09:32,541 gives us consequences 162 00:09:32,958 --> 00:09:35,041 after David was forgiven. 163 00:09:35,041 --> 00:09:38,250 God promised he would not die immediately, 164 00:09:38,958 --> 00:09:41,958 but the child conceived in the affair did. 165 00:09:42,916 --> 00:09:47,666 God also spoke of ongoing calamity in David's household and the eventual 166 00:09:47,666 --> 00:09:52,333 taking of his wives by someone else, as he had taken Uriah's wife, Bathsheba. 167 00:09:53,208 --> 00:09:55,333 Scripture then goes on to record 168 00:09:55,333 --> 00:09:58,333 the rape of one of David's daughters by her brother, 169 00:09:58,791 --> 00:10:01,791 the murder of one of David's sons by his brother, 170 00:10:02,250 --> 00:10:05,833 and the public adultery of Absalom with David's concubines. 171 00:10:06,708 --> 00:10:09,708 There were definitely ongoing consequences 172 00:10:09,958 --> 00:10:14,000 of forgiven sin that is stated pretty clearly in the text. 173 00:10:14,666 --> 00:10:18,791 The consequences didn't signify lack of forgiveness. 174 00:10:19,416 --> 00:10:22,416 They were an outcome of the sin that had occurred. 175 00:10:22,708 --> 00:10:25,333 It's interesting to me that David's writings 176 00:10:25,333 --> 00:10:28,333 were not removed from Scripture on account of his sin. 177 00:10:28,708 --> 00:10:30,958 They have much to teach us, 178 00:10:30,958 --> 00:10:34,458 but neither did God remove the consequences of the sin entirely. 179 00:10:36,458 --> 00:10:38,458 Now you might say, 180 00:10:38,458 --> 00:10:41,458 well, that was that was Old Testament. 181 00:10:41,458 --> 00:10:44,625 What about Jesus teachings on forgiveness? 182 00:10:46,208 --> 00:10:47,750 I mentioned earlier that Jesus 183 00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:50,750 often said, your sins are forgiven. 184 00:10:50,750 --> 00:10:55,583 But we seldom have accounts of those people after their forgiveness by Jesus. 185 00:10:56,041 --> 00:10:59,750 We don't know what consequences may or may not have followed them. 186 00:11:02,875 --> 00:11:04,375 I think sometimes 187 00:11:04,375 --> 00:11:08,750 Jesus prayer for his executioners on the cross 188 00:11:08,750 --> 00:11:12,041 when he prayed, father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. 189 00:11:12,416 --> 00:11:16,208 This is sometimes held up as a model to encourage people 190 00:11:16,208 --> 00:11:20,750 to immediately forgive any wrongs without interacting with the wrongdoer. 191 00:11:21,791 --> 00:11:25,750 I find it interesting that Jesus did not specifically say 192 00:11:25,750 --> 00:11:28,791 this to Judas in the garden when Judas betrayed him, 193 00:11:30,083 --> 00:11:33,083 nor did he say it to Peter when Peter denied him. 194 00:11:33,541 --> 00:11:36,625 Those disciples, when confronted with their sin, 195 00:11:37,041 --> 00:11:42,208 had to choose to repent or not and deal with the consequences of their sin. 196 00:11:43,041 --> 00:11:46,041 I doubt it was easy for Peter to face Jesus again. 197 00:11:47,750 --> 00:11:49,166 Now I know a 198 00:11:49,166 --> 00:11:52,166 lot of groups of worshipers struggle 199 00:11:52,333 --> 00:11:56,583 with the issue of ongoing sanctions administered by the church body. 200 00:11:57,541 --> 00:12:00,541 In the case of members who've been found guilty of abuse, 201 00:12:01,125 --> 00:12:04,166 I have not been called to church leadership, 202 00:12:04,166 --> 00:12:08,791 so I don't feel comfortable commenting on that specifically. 203 00:12:11,041 --> 00:12:14,583 We can speak about forgiveness conceptually and in a rather 204 00:12:14,583 --> 00:12:16,875 detached fashion. 205 00:12:16,875 --> 00:12:19,958 But these questions have deep implications for the human soul. 206 00:12:19,958 --> 00:12:24,041 And for many people, questions of forgiveness come with vivid 207 00:12:25,041 --> 00:12:27,625 memories, deep pain 208 00:12:27,625 --> 00:12:30,625 and real heart rending implications. 209 00:12:31,916 --> 00:12:33,250 On a previous occasion, 210 00:12:33,250 --> 00:12:37,708 and I think it was in one of the episodes that we already, published with you, 211 00:12:38,500 --> 00:12:41,083 you shared with us that the choice of forgiveness 212 00:12:41,083 --> 00:12:44,083 has directly confronted you. 213 00:12:44,666 --> 00:12:45,875 Can you share about this? 214 00:12:47,625 --> 00:12:50,916 I think people's journeys, 215 00:12:52,541 --> 00:12:55,541 as you mentioned, to forgiveness and healing, 216 00:12:55,958 --> 00:12:58,333 are deeply personal. 217 00:12:58,333 --> 00:13:02,208 They're as diverse as people's stories of how they came to Christ. 218 00:13:03,333 --> 00:13:06,000 The stories are very powerful. 219 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,083 Revelation 12:11 says, the saints in heaven 220 00:13:09,541 --> 00:13:13,416 overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony. 221 00:13:14,291 --> 00:13:16,958 So I will try to share 222 00:13:16,958 --> 00:13:20,000 a few lessons learned on my unique journey. 223 00:13:20,541 --> 00:13:23,625 Not saying that any of my story 224 00:13:23,625 --> 00:13:26,625 applies to anyone else, but in case 225 00:13:26,791 --> 00:13:29,791 there could be some help or insight someone could gather. 226 00:13:30,666 --> 00:13:33,666 So I grew up in a faith community 227 00:13:34,250 --> 00:13:37,666 where our heroes were those Christians who love their enemies, 228 00:13:38,416 --> 00:13:41,791 bless those who cursed them, did good to those who hated them, 229 00:13:41,791 --> 00:13:44,791 and prayed for those who mistreated them. 230 00:13:44,791 --> 00:13:47,833 Forgiveness was a very deep, 231 00:13:47,916 --> 00:13:51,291 foundational concept in our theology. 232 00:13:53,166 --> 00:13:53,916 At the same 233 00:13:53,916 --> 00:13:57,875 time, I grew up being abused by an adult 234 00:13:58,208 --> 00:14:01,208 who was considered an upstanding citizen 235 00:14:01,208 --> 00:14:04,208 in that same community. 236 00:14:04,458 --> 00:14:06,291 As all children do. 237 00:14:06,291 --> 00:14:08,916 I tried to make sense of my world. 238 00:14:08,916 --> 00:14:11,916 The abuse had to be kept secret, 239 00:14:12,166 --> 00:14:15,000 so it must be wrong 240 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,375 if the perpetrator was an upstanding citizen in the community 241 00:14:19,041 --> 00:14:22,041 and something wrong was happening between us, 242 00:14:22,041 --> 00:14:25,041 then the fault must be mine. 243 00:14:25,125 --> 00:14:27,625 So I spent a lot of time 244 00:14:27,625 --> 00:14:30,875 as a child praying and pleading for forgiveness, 245 00:14:31,375 --> 00:14:35,583 and still was never able to stop the abuse. 246 00:14:35,625 --> 00:14:38,500 The thing that was wrong. 247 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:41,500 So I was I was very conflicted. 248 00:14:41,541 --> 00:14:45,125 There must be something flawed in me, 249 00:14:45,625 --> 00:14:48,625 so flawed that even God couldn't fix it. 250 00:14:49,958 --> 00:14:52,625 Or if I entertained the idea 251 00:14:52,625 --> 00:14:57,208 that the fault wasn't mine, then I knew that I should forgive. 252 00:14:57,541 --> 00:14:58,875 And I did. 253 00:14:58,875 --> 00:15:04,458 Often I promised God, I forgave, but still nothing changed. 254 00:15:05,875 --> 00:15:08,166 Imagine if you can, 255 00:15:08,166 --> 00:15:11,833 the ideas that developed out of that conflict. 256 00:15:13,041 --> 00:15:16,041 People couldn't be relied on to care for me. 257 00:15:16,250 --> 00:15:19,250 God either couldn't or wouldn't protect me. 258 00:15:19,875 --> 00:15:22,208 I was too twisted to be loved, 259 00:15:22,208 --> 00:15:25,208 accepted, or redeemed. 260 00:15:26,708 --> 00:15:27,666 I gave my life to 261 00:15:27,666 --> 00:15:30,666 Jesus and was baptized in my teens. 262 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,625 Then for a short while, I felt relieved because now I had done everything 263 00:15:35,625 --> 00:15:39,208 the Bible taught for salvation to the extent of my understanding. 264 00:15:39,625 --> 00:15:42,625 Surely I would be forgiven now. 265 00:15:43,666 --> 00:15:45,500 Then it occurred to me 266 00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:47,916 that I might be responsible for the abuser 267 00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:50,916 going to hell if I kept the secret and said nothing. 268 00:15:52,208 --> 00:15:55,916 But I kept getting confused with feeling that if I said anything 269 00:15:55,916 --> 00:16:00,500 it would be mean spirited and unforgiving, and that was sinful to. 270 00:16:02,416 --> 00:16:06,250 So imagine trying to reconcile in one soul, 271 00:16:07,041 --> 00:16:10,541 forgiving a sinner and sharing communion with that same sinner 272 00:16:11,250 --> 00:16:14,375 while maintaining responsible for hiding the sin 273 00:16:14,375 --> 00:16:17,375 and never letting anyone know about it year after year. 274 00:16:18,625 --> 00:16:21,500 By the time I turned 30, I had survived 275 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:24,750 depression, burnout, and an eating disorder, 276 00:16:25,666 --> 00:16:28,583 which all finally led me to talking about sexual abuse 277 00:16:28,583 --> 00:16:31,458 with a counselor. 278 00:16:31,458 --> 00:16:35,791 When I finally truly understood 279 00:16:36,291 --> 00:16:38,833 that this thing had never been my fault, 280 00:16:38,833 --> 00:16:42,041 and that I had suffered all that guilt and anguish unnecessarily, 281 00:16:42,708 --> 00:16:45,833 and that this had affected all my relationships with other people 282 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:48,000 in lack of trust and so on. 283 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,000 I finally responded in anger, 284 00:16:51,333 --> 00:16:55,333 and I felt like it would be fair for the abuser to be penalized 285 00:16:56,291 --> 00:16:58,958 according to the damage caused by the abuse. 286 00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:05,291 Untangling all the ideas I had woven into my worldview 287 00:17:05,291 --> 00:17:08,791 in all those years was a long, painful, 288 00:17:08,791 --> 00:17:11,791 and sometimes excruciating process. 289 00:17:12,166 --> 00:17:14,791 I share this as a caution 290 00:17:14,791 --> 00:17:17,791 about pushing people to forgive too quickly. 291 00:17:17,833 --> 00:17:21,625 I tried to forgive for many years, but I never understood 292 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,208 what I was actually forgiving or what forgiveness meant. 293 00:17:25,916 --> 00:17:29,750 For so long, my so-called forgiveness had merely covered 294 00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:32,916 someone’s sin. 295 00:17:33,291 --> 00:17:36,458 I had also been well schooled in the Matthew 18 format 296 00:17:36,458 --> 00:17:38,625 for dealing with offenses. 297 00:17:38,625 --> 00:17:41,625 So I approached my abuser alone. 298 00:17:42,166 --> 00:17:45,041 In hindsight, I would recommend that someone 299 00:17:45,041 --> 00:17:49,208 who's been abused from childhood should never approach their abuser alone. 300 00:17:49,875 --> 00:17:53,791 Even as an adult, the victim requires a lot of healing before 301 00:17:53,791 --> 00:17:57,833 they can respond as an adult to the one who's abused them all their life. 302 00:18:00,416 --> 00:18:03,666 Eventually, I was offered an apology. 303 00:18:04,666 --> 00:18:07,083 One of those I can't remember ever 304 00:18:07,083 --> 00:18:11,833 abusing you, but if I offended you in some way, I'm sorry, deals. 305 00:18:12,250 --> 00:18:15,041 That is not a confession. 306 00:18:15,041 --> 00:18:18,041 There is nothing to forgive in that statement. 307 00:18:19,083 --> 00:18:21,791 So I waited. 308 00:18:21,791 --> 00:18:24,791 By the time a confession naming the sin came. 309 00:18:25,583 --> 00:18:28,583 I had adopted the definition of forgiveness I gave earlier. 310 00:18:29,333 --> 00:18:33,166 It's a while back now, but I think the courts imposed a two year 311 00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:36,916 no contact order so that at least that much time 312 00:18:36,916 --> 00:18:39,916 elapsed before I spoke to the abuser about forgiveness. 313 00:18:41,083 --> 00:18:44,083 By that time, the sinner had been confronted. 314 00:18:44,583 --> 00:18:46,708 The sin had been named. 315 00:18:46,708 --> 00:18:49,333 A confession had been received. 316 00:18:49,333 --> 00:18:53,208 So I promised to forgive, to not bring up the sin again 317 00:18:53,208 --> 00:18:56,083 in such a way as to suggest there was an outstanding debt. 318 00:18:57,666 --> 00:18:59,250 I did this 319 00:18:59,250 --> 00:19:02,250 because Christ died to forgive my sin, 320 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,625 and because he asked me to forgive others likewise, 321 00:19:06,125 --> 00:19:09,500 not because I felt like doing it or because the abuser deserved it. 322 00:19:11,833 --> 00:19:14,500 As the years passed, I came to understand 323 00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:18,083 that some consequences of abuse to the victim are lifelong. 324 00:19:18,666 --> 00:19:22,000 Confession and forgiveness do not erase all the scars. 325 00:19:22,750 --> 00:19:27,458 So for me, part of forgiveness also became agreeing 326 00:19:27,458 --> 00:19:30,458 to bear the penalty of the sin against me. 327 00:19:31,416 --> 00:19:33,541 This is what Jesus did for me. 328 00:19:33,541 --> 00:19:35,083 He paid the price. 329 00:19:35,083 --> 00:19:36,791 He bore the penalty. 330 00:19:36,791 --> 00:19:39,791 I must do the same. 331 00:19:40,083 --> 00:19:43,875 What was not my role in this scenario was judging 332 00:19:43,875 --> 00:19:47,041 whether or not the perpetrator had truly repented. 333 00:19:47,875 --> 00:19:50,875 That was between the confessor and God. 334 00:19:51,833 --> 00:19:55,416 Enforcing any type of consequences was also not my role. 335 00:19:55,958 --> 00:20:00,458 For years, I would have had difficulty maintaining my commitment to forgiveness. 336 00:20:01,375 --> 00:20:06,583 If I had been any part of deciding consequences for the offender, I just 337 00:20:06,583 --> 00:20:10,083 wasn't comfortable around this person until time and God did their work. 338 00:20:10,666 --> 00:20:12,041 And they did. 339 00:20:12,041 --> 00:20:14,416 I consider forgiveness a miracle. 340 00:20:14,416 --> 00:20:15,666 It changes your life. 341 00:20:18,041 --> 00:20:20,958 Now, I guess one consequence, 342 00:20:20,958 --> 00:20:25,416 if you will, that I was part of was that I didn't return 343 00:20:25,416 --> 00:20:29,125 to live alone with the person I had forgiven for sexually abusing me. 344 00:20:29,833 --> 00:20:33,916 Some might have thought that was reconciliation to me. 345 00:20:34,125 --> 00:20:37,541 That would have been like moving a recovering alcoholic into a bar. 346 00:20:38,166 --> 00:20:41,083 It's love, not unforgiveness, to help someone 347 00:20:41,083 --> 00:20:44,083 be accountable to God. 348 00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:47,125 As you tell your story, Roseanne. 349 00:20:47,125 --> 00:20:49,750 I feel sadness. 350 00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:52,083 I feel weighty. 351 00:20:52,083 --> 00:20:55,083 You really have suffered much, 352 00:20:55,541 --> 00:20:57,666 if it's okay. 353 00:20:57,666 --> 00:21:00,666 Can I ask some follow up questions? 354 00:21:01,958 --> 00:21:03,125 First, you said 355 00:21:03,125 --> 00:21:06,291 that you believed that God either couldn't 356 00:21:07,041 --> 00:21:10,041 or wouldn't protect you, and you saw yourself as unlovable. 357 00:21:11,875 --> 00:21:14,208 But as I know you now, 358 00:21:14,208 --> 00:21:17,208 I think that your view of God has changed. 359 00:21:17,625 --> 00:21:18,750 How did that happen? 360 00:21:21,083 --> 00:21:23,416 The other thing I was interested to hear more from 361 00:21:23,416 --> 00:21:26,750 you about was when you said that 362 00:21:27,791 --> 00:21:30,375 part of forgiveness was agreeing to bear 363 00:21:30,375 --> 00:21:33,375 the penalty of the sin against you. 364 00:21:33,875 --> 00:21:36,875 What do you mean by that? 365 00:21:37,291 --> 00:21:37,875 That? 366 00:21:37,875 --> 00:21:40,291 yeah, that would be a fairly long conversation. 367 00:21:40,291 --> 00:21:43,291 basically. 368 00:21:44,125 --> 00:21:47,625 And, you know, if I was going to try to do it in a short bit, 369 00:21:48,458 --> 00:21:51,250 that was part of what counseling was about. 370 00:21:51,250 --> 00:21:53,708 It was about exploring, 371 00:21:53,708 --> 00:21:55,958 recognizing the ideas I had. 372 00:21:55,958 --> 00:21:58,708 Because we grow up with, 373 00:21:58,708 --> 00:22:02,208 the way I've explained it sometimes is 374 00:22:03,125 --> 00:22:05,916 I don't know if you do puzzles, but most people, when they make puzzles, 375 00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:08,916 they sort of put the frame together first, 376 00:22:09,625 --> 00:22:12,666 and then they make an assumption that every other piece fits 377 00:22:12,666 --> 00:22:13,625 into that framework somehow. 378 00:22:13,625 --> 00:22:16,625 When we're children, 379 00:22:17,083 --> 00:22:21,958 we develop our ideas of the world God, people, how things work. 380 00:22:22,416 --> 00:22:25,750 We sort of develop that framework in our fairly early years, 381 00:22:26,416 --> 00:22:28,916 and then the rest of our lives we spend just 382 00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:31,916 putting the pieces into that framework. 383 00:22:31,916 --> 00:22:38,833 Now, in my case, I actually had to go back and undo the framework 384 00:22:40,125 --> 00:22:43,625 and redo it so that different ideas could fit into it. 385 00:22:43,625 --> 00:22:48,666 And that takes it takes time, it takes study, it takes prayer, 386 00:22:48,666 --> 00:22:53,625 it takes practice, actually, you know, recognizing your your thoughts 387 00:22:53,625 --> 00:22:58,875 that are wrong and trying to replace them with different thoughts. 388 00:22:59,625 --> 00:23:00,583 scripturally, that would be 389 00:23:00,583 --> 00:23:03,958 the idea of sweeping the house and replacing it with something new. 390 00:23:04,541 --> 00:23:07,541 But it's it's not easy and it's not quick. 391 00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:12,000 I don't know if that answers any of the question for you. 392 00:23:13,041 --> 00:23:15,416 I believe that does. Thank you. The other. 393 00:23:15,416 --> 00:23:16,375 What was the other one? 394 00:23:16,375 --> 00:23:18,208 Oh, about bearing the penalty? 395 00:23:18,208 --> 00:23:20,750 Yes. 396 00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:20,791 Yes. 397 00:23:20,791 --> 00:23:23,791 that's the way I personally think about things like 398 00:23:24,625 --> 00:23:28,000 I will never be able to see the world 399 00:23:29,333 --> 00:23:31,875 from the perspective of innocence, 400 00:23:31,875 --> 00:23:34,958 a belief that these things don't happen, 401 00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:39,375 that I can't imagine growing up in a home where you're not abused. 402 00:23:39,375 --> 00:23:44,500 I can't imagine growing up in a place where these things don't happen. 403 00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:45,500 I can't imagine 404 00:23:46,625 --> 00:23:47,875 not, you know, 405 00:23:47,875 --> 00:23:50,958 having had to deal with mistrust and so on. 406 00:23:50,958 --> 00:23:54,333 Those are prices I had to pay because no amount of confession 407 00:23:54,333 --> 00:23:57,333 by the abuser could ever change that for me. 408 00:23:57,416 --> 00:23:59,416 Could ever restore. 409 00:23:59,416 --> 00:24:01,375 God does restore our past. 410 00:24:01,375 --> 00:24:04,000 But some some scars remain. 411 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000 And as long as we keep, 412 00:24:08,500 --> 00:24:11,125 fighting against them, 413 00:24:11,125 --> 00:24:13,833 wishing they weren't so, 414 00:24:13,833 --> 00:24:15,291 it holds us back. 415 00:24:15,291 --> 00:24:18,666 So I kind of made the decision that that was part 416 00:24:18,666 --> 00:24:23,333 of forgiveness, that I agree to bear those things, to live with those things, 417 00:24:23,333 --> 00:24:26,333 to allow God to redeem them as he chooses 418 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:29,500 or to leave them as he chooses. 419 00:24:29,875 --> 00:24:30,833 Yeah. Thank you. 420 00:24:30,833 --> 00:24:31,291 Thank you. 421 00:24:31,291 --> 00:24:34,291 That is helpful. 422 00:24:35,291 --> 00:24:35,458 Yeah. 423 00:24:35,458 --> 00:24:38,458 Thank you for engaging with that. 424 00:24:38,791 --> 00:24:42,583 I think we will begin to bring this episode to an end 425 00:24:42,791 --> 00:24:46,958 or to a close, but is there anything else that you would like to add? 426 00:24:49,250 --> 00:24:51,250 I guess one thing that I think about 427 00:24:51,250 --> 00:24:54,250 sometimes when I talk about forgiveness is that 428 00:24:55,250 --> 00:24:58,250 I caution not to compare 429 00:24:58,958 --> 00:25:03,083 forgiving a long history of abuse by a family or church member 430 00:25:03,416 --> 00:25:07,083 with forgiving a single event in an adult's life. 431 00:25:07,625 --> 00:25:09,375 All forgiveness is costly. 432 00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:10,916 That's true. 433 00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:14,958 Recently, I had an allegation of racial discrimination made against me. 434 00:25:14,958 --> 00:25:16,791 Not in good faith, 435 00:25:16,791 --> 00:25:20,333 but that was a very difficult to forgive as it's a very loaded 436 00:25:20,333 --> 00:25:24,541 topic involved investigation, potential job loss and all that. 437 00:25:25,375 --> 00:25:28,500 But I would say that it was easier 438 00:25:28,625 --> 00:25:31,625 to process and forgive 439 00:25:31,708 --> 00:25:35,041 a single difficult event like that as an adult 440 00:25:35,625 --> 00:25:40,000 than my experience of trying to deal with adults in a child's mind. 441 00:25:40,208 --> 00:25:44,708 there there just aren't enough words or tools to make sense of it. 442 00:25:45,083 --> 00:25:48,083 And so it's it's more of a complicated process. 443 00:25:48,083 --> 00:25:48,583 I think. 444 00:25:50,791 --> 00:25:51,750 Well, again, thank you 445 00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:54,750 for coming to join us for this conversation. 446 00:25:54,875 --> 00:26:00,125 And thank you for sharing about forgiveness as a concept, 447 00:26:00,125 --> 00:26:03,541 but also sharing how that has been a part of your story. 448 00:26:04,333 --> 00:26:07,333 I trust that this will be helpful to our audience. 449 00:26:07,541 --> 00:26:10,541 I know it's been helpful for my own thinking about forgiveness. 450 00:26:11,166 --> 00:26:11,625 Okay. 451 00:26:11,625 --> 00:26:12,416 Thank you. 452 00:29:21,416 --> 00:29:22,375 Hey, Carl. 453 00:29:22,375 --> 00:29:26,291 This is, another recording that I'm making for a couple reasons. 454 00:29:26,333 --> 00:29:27,458 One is because the other 455 00:29:27,458 --> 00:29:30,458 recording the main recording with others and did not have a hook. 456 00:29:31,458 --> 00:29:34,458 Also. 457 00:29:35,333 --> 00:29:38,000 It's like this 458 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,166 today, I was about as comfortable 459 00:29:40,166 --> 00:29:45,291 as I usually am on camera, which is to say, very uncomfortable. 460 00:29:45,833 --> 00:29:48,833 So I wasn't as articulate as I wanted to be. 461 00:29:49,875 --> 00:29:53,458 With that being the case, there are two particular questions 462 00:29:53,458 --> 00:29:58,333 that I am interested in having replaced. 463 00:30:00,625 --> 00:30:04,166 One is where I ask Roseanna, tell her story. 464 00:30:04,958 --> 00:30:07,958 I said that a little bit clumsily. 465 00:30:08,166 --> 00:30:12,208 Also, after Rosanne told her story and I asked for some follow up questions, 466 00:30:12,208 --> 00:30:15,625 I was both uncomfortable and a little bit emotional and incredibly inarticulate. 467 00:30:16,208 --> 00:30:20,125 So I think that if that question could be replaced, 468 00:30:21,291 --> 00:30:24,291 well, 469 00:30:25,833 --> 00:30:28,166 we can make it better. 470 00:30:28,166 --> 00:30:31,166 So here goes with the hook. 471 00:30:33,875 --> 00:30:36,875 let me get my nerves up. 472 00:30:41,541 --> 00:30:43,250 What is forgiveness? 473 00:30:43,250 --> 00:30:45,125 When should it be given? 474 00:30:45,125 --> 00:30:48,125 And how does the Bible illustrate forgiveness? 475 00:30:53,291 --> 00:30:54,666 What is forgiveness? 476 00:30:54,666 --> 00:30:56,500 When should it be given? 477 00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:59,500 And how does the Bible illustrate it? 478 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:05,000 What is forgiveness? 479 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,250 When should it be given? 480 00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:09,250 And how does the Bible illustrate it? 481 00:31:12,333 --> 00:31:14,583 Do you think that will work? 482 00:31:14,583 --> 00:31:17,583 I hope so. 483 00:35:11,083 --> 00:35:11,500 Okay. 484 00:35:11,500 --> 00:35:13,791 The next what I'm going to do is 485 00:35:15,583 --> 00:35:18,041 the question where I ask Roseanne 486 00:35:18,041 --> 00:35:21,041 to tell her story. 487 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:27,833 We can speak about forgiveness 488 00:35:27,833 --> 00:35:31,000 conceptually and in a rather detached way. 489 00:35:31,875 --> 00:35:35,458 but something I'm conscious of is that these questions 490 00:35:35,458 --> 00:35:38,541 about forgiveness have deep implications for the human soul. 491 00:35:39,541 --> 00:35:42,500 And for many people, questions of forgiveness come with vivid 492 00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:46,375 memories, deep pain, and real 493 00:35:46,666 --> 00:35:49,666 heart rending implications. 494 00:35:50,541 --> 00:35:53,250 On a previous occasion, I think, 495 00:35:53,250 --> 00:35:56,541 I think it was one of the earlier episodes that you did with us, 496 00:35:57,166 --> 00:36:00,750 you shared with, you shared with us how the choice of forgiveness 497 00:36:00,916 --> 00:36:03,916 has directly confronted you. 498 00:36:05,166 --> 00:36:08,166 So can you share with us about this? 499 00:36:14,125 --> 00:36:17,666 We can speak about forgiveness conceptually and in a rather 500 00:36:17,666 --> 00:36:19,958 detached fashion. 501 00:36:19,958 --> 00:36:23,041 But these questions have deep implications for the human soul. 502 00:36:23,041 --> 00:36:27,125 And for many people, questions of forgiveness come with vivid 503 00:36:28,125 --> 00:36:30,875 memories, deep pain and 504 00:36:30,875 --> 00:36:33,875 real heart rending implications. 505 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,333 On a previous occasion, 506 00:36:36,333 --> 00:36:40,791 and I think it was in one of the episodes that we already, published with you, 507 00:36:41,583 --> 00:36:44,166 you shared with us that the choice of forgiveness 508 00:36:44,166 --> 00:36:47,166 has directly confronted you. 509 00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:50,750 Can you share about this? 510 00:36:57,833 --> 00:36:58,583 One of the things 511 00:36:58,583 --> 00:37:02,083 I'm conscious of when we talk about this is that, 512 00:37:03,291 --> 00:37:06,541 though we can talk about it in a rather detached fashion, 513 00:37:07,958 --> 00:37:10,333 the questions and the realities of forgiveness 514 00:37:10,333 --> 00:37:14,291 have very deep, deep implications for the human soul. 515 00:37:15,166 --> 00:37:18,166 And for many people, 516 00:37:18,583 --> 00:37:21,250 questions of forgiveness come with vivid memories. 517 00:37:21,250 --> 00:37:23,458 deep pain 518 00:37:23,458 --> 00:37:27,291 and just real heart rending implications. 519 00:37:30,291 --> 00:37:32,666 On a previous occasion, I think in a previous episode 520 00:37:32,666 --> 00:37:36,000 you did with us, you shared that the choice of forgiveness 521 00:37:36,666 --> 00:37:39,000 has confronted you directly. 522 00:37:40,166 --> 00:37:41,166 So I was wondering if you 523 00:37:41,166 --> 00:37:44,166 could share with us about that. 524 00:40:16,375 --> 00:40:18,875 Not sure what was going on there in the middle, but I think either 525 00:40:18,875 --> 00:40:21,875 the first try or this last try that I did, 526 00:40:22,166 --> 00:40:25,166 would be better than. 527 00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:27,875 What happened when I was actually in the conversation 528 00:40:27,875 --> 00:40:30,875 with Roseanne? 529 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,000 one more thing to do is, 530 00:40:36,750 --> 00:40:39,750 what I said after Roseanne told her story 531 00:40:40,291 --> 00:40:43,291 and ask for follow up questions. 532 00:40:44,416 --> 00:40:47,416 I don't know, you could probably do this better. 533 00:40:47,875 --> 00:40:50,875 I'm going to try to, 534 00:40:51,666 --> 00:40:54,666 do it over again. 535 00:41:03,208 --> 00:41:03,625 As you 536 00:41:03,625 --> 00:41:06,625 tell your story, Roseanne, I feel sadness 537 00:41:07,250 --> 00:41:08,541 and I feel weighty. 538 00:41:08,541 --> 00:41:11,541 You have suffered much. 539 00:41:12,375 --> 00:41:13,875 If it's okay, 540 00:41:13,875 --> 00:41:16,875 can I ask some follow up questions? 541 00:41:17,208 --> 00:41:20,625 First, you said that you believe that God either couldn't 542 00:41:21,375 --> 00:41:25,083 or wouldn't protect you, and you saw yourself as unlovable. 543 00:41:26,375 --> 00:41:26,916 But as I 544 00:41:26,916 --> 00:41:30,000 know you now, your view of God has changed. 545 00:41:30,916 --> 00:41:33,916 How did that happen? 546 00:41:34,583 --> 00:41:35,458 And the other question 547 00:41:35,458 --> 00:41:38,833 had to do with when you said that for you. 548 00:41:38,875 --> 00:41:42,791 Part of forgiveness was agreeing to bear the penalty of the sin against you. 549 00:41:43,625 --> 00:41:46,625 What did you mean by that? 550 00:41:50,916 --> 00:41:52,541 As you tell your story, Roseanne. 551 00:41:52,541 --> 00:41:55,166 I feel sadness. 552 00:41:55,166 --> 00:41:57,500 I feel weighty. 553 00:41:57,500 --> 00:42:00,500 You really have suffered much, 554 00:42:00,958 --> 00:42:03,083 if it's okay. 555 00:42:03,083 --> 00:42:06,083 Can I ask some follow up questions? 556 00:42:07,375 --> 00:42:08,541 First, you said 557 00:42:08,541 --> 00:42:11,708 that you believed that God either couldn't 558 00:42:12,458 --> 00:42:15,458 or wouldn't protect you, and you saw yourself as unlovable. 559 00:42:17,291 --> 00:42:19,625 But as I know you now, 560 00:42:19,625 --> 00:42:22,625 I think that your view of God has changed. 561 00:42:23,041 --> 00:42:26,041 How did that happen? 562 00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,166 The other thing I was interested 563 00:42:28,166 --> 00:42:32,166 to hear more from you about was when you said that 564 00:42:33,208 --> 00:42:35,125 part of forgiveness was agreeing 565 00:42:35,125 --> 00:42:38,208 to bear the penalty of the sin against you. 566 00:42:39,291 --> 00:42:42,291 What do you mean by that? 567 00:42:52,166 --> 00:42:52,500 Okay. 568 00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:55,166 That's all. I think I'm going to stop with that. 569 00:42:55,166 --> 00:42:59,083 Hopefully something in there is, 570 00:43:00,458 --> 00:43:02,708 better than what happened the first time around. 571 00:43:02,708 --> 00:43:05,708 Thank you. 572 00:43:19,125 --> 00:43:20,625 Well, as I. 573 00:43:20,625 --> 00:43:22,250 As I hear you tell your story. 574 00:43:22,250 --> 00:43:26,125 it's heavy stuff, and I. 575 00:43:26,291 --> 00:43:29,291 I really feel, 576 00:43:30,250 --> 00:43:33,250 A second hand, but I think. 577 00:43:33,250 --> 00:43:35,166 Yeah, it just makes me sad. 578 00:43:35,166 --> 00:43:36,208 I'm sorry. 579 00:43:36,208 --> 00:43:39,208 Sorry to hear that. 580 00:43:43,708 --> 00:43:46,708 There were a few things that you said that I would be 581 00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:50,625 interested in raising a a follow up question on, 582 00:43:52,041 --> 00:43:52,791 is that something 583 00:43:52,791 --> 00:43:55,791 you would be comfortable with 584 00:43:55,875 --> 00:43:57,791 in this section? 585 00:43:57,791 --> 00:44:00,791 So, and, 586 00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:07,166 You mentioned 587 00:44:07,166 --> 00:44:10,166 burying the penalty of the sin. 588 00:44:10,208 --> 00:44:13,666 That was that was one thing I would be interested in hearing more. What 589 00:44:14,875 --> 00:44:15,875 what did you mean? 590 00:44:15,875 --> 00:44:20,750 And saying that you agree to create to bear the penalty of the sin against you. 591 00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:23,750 And the other thing was, 592 00:44:25,833 --> 00:44:28,125 Oh, you mentioned how 593 00:44:28,125 --> 00:44:30,791 how you viewed God. 594 00:44:30,791 --> 00:44:33,916 during the time of the abuse. 595 00:44:36,708 --> 00:44:38,416 And I guess I'm assuming 596 00:44:38,416 --> 00:44:41,416 that your view of God has changed with time. 597 00:44:43,041 --> 00:44:45,291 would that be something 598 00:44:45,291 --> 00:44:48,291 you'd be interested in talking about? How? 599 00:44:49,875 --> 00:44:51,833 How you were able 600 00:44:51,833 --> 00:44:52,916 if you if God developed.