What is forgiveness?
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When should it be given?
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And how does the Bible illustrate it?
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Roseanne, thank you for joining us
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for this episode
of Anabaptist Perspectives.
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for this episode
of Anabaptist Perspectives.
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On two previous occasions,
you joined us for a conversation
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or for two conversations about abuse,
and you gave us an overview
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of how churches have responded to abuse,
both in the past and the present.
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And you helped us to think about
how to help those around us
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when we learn
that they have been experiencing abuse.
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After hearing these conversations,
some in our audience
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nudged us to speak more about forgiveness.
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And they were specifically addressing
the concern that if an abuser
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experiences ongoing consequences
for their actions,
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that they have not been properly
receiving forgiveness.
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So in this episode, we want to address
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what forgiveness
is, how the Bible illustrates it.
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And then I think you plan to share
what forgiveness has meant for you.
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So to
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begin, let's
think about the definition of forgiveness.
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Or what does forgiveness even mean?
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That question has been answered
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by a lot of people
from a lot of different perspectives.
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Some of them have done
a far more in-depth study than I have,
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but let me just give you
a few clarifications
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of what I mean
when I talk about forgiveness.
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forgiveness is not forgetting.
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forgiveness is not forgetting.
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There are a lot of scriptures
that talk about God remembering our sins
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no more removing them far from us,
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making us white as snow, and so on.
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But not forgetting
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God is choosing,
not to mention our sins to us again.
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God is choosing
not to exact revenge on us.
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God is choosing to remove record of our
sins from outstanding debt.
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But I don't think there's scripture
that says God
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forgets in the sense
that he has no memory of our former sins.
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There is a scripture where Paul talks
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about forgetting those things
which are behind in Philippians,
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but he seems to be referring to forgetting
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his own efforts to achieve righteousness,
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rather than forgetting the fact
that he was a sinner saved by grace.
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We also don't repeatedly
practice communion
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because we or God have forgotten the price
he paid to forgive our sins.
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We're celebrating the sacrifice he made
so that our sins
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could be forgiven.
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forgiveness
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also is not denying, minimizing,
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or excusing another person's
sin against us.
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When Jesus was forgiving sin,
he didn't typically say, oh, that's okay.
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We all sin sometimes.
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Or I understand you were under
a lot of stress at the time.
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He would
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typically say your sins are forgiven
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and then give direction to go forth
a changed person.
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There was no minimizing or excusing
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in the forgiveness.
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Forgiveness is not a feeling.
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Psychology today defines forgiveness
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as a release of resentment or anger.
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And although part of forgiveness
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is recognizing our feelings
about the sin and the sinner
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and releasing them to God for healing,
for sure, forgiveness in Scripture
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is more of a transaction
between two parties
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than a release of feelings by one party.
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Scripture talks
about confronting the sinner.
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Confession by the sinner.
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Repentance.
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Forgiveness by the one sinned against,
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and then the forging
of a new path forward.
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This is a transaction, a process,
not a feeling.
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In fact,
forgiveness is more often a choice to obey
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God rather than because we wake up
one day feeling in a forgiving mood.
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Saying to someone
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you need to forgive me
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is like saying you need to love me.
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God does command us to love one
another and forgive one another.
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But neither of these is scripturally
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based on feelings.
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And the fourth thing I think of
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when I think of what forgiveness is not,
is reconciliation
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or restoration to a former state.
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This is probably where most of the
questions about forgiveness have arisen.
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Is forgiveness the same as reconciliation?
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Again,
we might not all mean the same thing
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when we say reconciliation.
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I mentioned previously
that when Jesus forgave,
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he did not say, return to your former
ways.
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Okay, so the forgiven sinner
should not return to their former ways.
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Repentance means turning from your sin.
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How then can we encourage
the one forgiving,
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to return to their former relationship
with the one who sinned?
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Forgiveness is
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not restoration to a former state,
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but transformation into something new
that glorifies God.
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The former sinful relationship didn't.
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So that's what forgiveness is not.
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What is it?
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How do we define it?
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For me, it's a commitment
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not to dwell on the injury
mentally thinking about it all the time,
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not to bring it up and accuse
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the other person with it ever again,
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and not to bring it up to others
to gossip about it.
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This doesn't mean you won't ever
think about it again.
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You won't forget as soon as you forgive.
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It's about choosing not to dwell on it.
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You might not feel much release or peace
either, initially.
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You'll need to choose this commitment
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over and over
and ask God to help you with it.
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If it's not possible
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to confront the one who sinned against
you due to death or other circumstances,
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you can prepare your heart
between you and God
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to make that commitment,
not to actively remember anymore
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or talk about it in terms of a debt
owed to you.
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I think that's my best attempt
to define forgiveness.
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That's good. That's very good.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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In a previous conversation with us,
that you did called Responding to Abuse,
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which we would encourage our audience
to listen to if you haven't yet.
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you encourage us
to look into the stories of Scripture
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where characters experienced forgiveness.
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Can you share a story or two
with us from the Bible where somebody
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experienced forgiveness, particularly
in light of the ongoing consequences?
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Okay, so
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one of the Bible's overarching themes
is humanity's
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fall into sin and God's
plan of redemption.
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So forgiveness
is found all over in Scripture.
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It it's all about God's forgiveness
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for us and ours for one another.
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Because this particular episode
is framed in the context
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of something like sexual abuse,
I think of David and Bathsheba story.
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The Bible tells us
that David stayed at home in his palace
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in Jerusalem while
his troops went out to battle,
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as he was walking around
on his palace roof.
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He saw a woman bathing.
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He sent for her to be brought
to his palace and he slept with her.
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Then he sent her back home.
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I can only imagine that he expected
that no one would ever know about this.
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Some have
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talked a lot about the sin of Bathsheba.
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She shouldn't have been bathing
where David could see her.
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She should have stayed away, etc. etc.
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this feels to me like an attempt
to deviate
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from the intent of the entire scripture
passage.
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The story is about David,
anything said about Bathsheba's
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responsibility or lack
thereof is conjecture.
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When David received word
that Bathsheba was with child,
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he had her husband
killed to try to cover up his sin.
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This was a man who knew God's law.
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A man who knew that adultery
was punishable
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by stoning
and murder was punishable by death.
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But David required a confrontation
by the prophet Nathan
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before he was willing to admit his sin.
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If you read Psalm 51,
you get a picture of David's
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heartfelt confession,
repentance, and sorrow for his sin.
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You asked about ongoing consequences.
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Second Samuel 12:11-14
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gives us consequences
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after David was forgiven.
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God promised he would not die immediately,
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but the child conceived in the affair did.
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God also spoke of ongoing calamity
in David's household and the eventual
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taking of his wives by someone else,
as he had taken Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.
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Scripture then goes on to record
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the rape of one of David's
daughters by her brother,
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the murder of one of David's
sons by his brother,
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and the public adultery of Absalom
with David's concubines.
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There were definitely ongoing consequences
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of forgiven sin
that is stated pretty clearly in the text.
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The consequences didn't signify
lack of forgiveness.
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They were an outcome of the sin
that had occurred.
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It's interesting to me
that David's writings
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were not removed from Scripture
on account of his sin.
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They have much to teach us,
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but neither did God remove
the consequences of the sin entirely.
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Now you might say,
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well, that was that was Old Testament.
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What about Jesus teachings on forgiveness?
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I mentioned earlier that Jesus
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often said, your sins are forgiven.
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But we seldom have accounts of those
people after their forgiveness by Jesus.
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We don't know what consequences
may or may not have followed them.
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I think sometimes
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Jesus prayer
for his executioners on the cross
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when he prayed, father, forgive them, for
they know not what they do.
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This is sometimes held up as a model
to encourage people
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to immediately forgive any wrongs
without interacting with the wrongdoer.
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I find it interesting
that Jesus did not specifically say
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this to Judas in the garden
when Judas betrayed him,
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nor did he say it to Peter
when Peter denied him.
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Those disciples,
when confronted with their sin,
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had to choose to repent or not and deal
with the consequences of their sin.
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I doubt it was easy for
Peter to face Jesus again.
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Now I know a
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lot of groups of worshipers struggle
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with the issue of ongoing sanctions
administered by the church body.
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In the case of members
who've been found guilty of abuse,
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I have not been called to church
leadership,
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so I don't feel comfortable commenting
on that specifically.
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We can speak about forgiveness
conceptually and in a rather
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detached fashion.
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But these questions have deep implications
for the human soul.
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And for many people,
questions of forgiveness come with vivid
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memories, deep pain
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and real heart rending implications.
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On a previous occasion,
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and I think it was in one of the episodes
that we already, published with you,
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you shared with us
that the choice of forgiveness
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has directly confronted you.
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Can you share about this?
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I think people's journeys,
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as you mentioned, to forgiveness
and healing,
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are deeply personal.
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They're as diverse as people's stories
of how they came to Christ.
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The stories are very powerful.
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Revelation 12:11 says, the saints in heaven
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overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb
and by the word of their testimony.
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So I will try to share
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a few lessons
learned on my unique journey.
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Not saying that any of my story
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applies to anyone else, but in case
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there could be some help or insight
someone could gather.
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So I grew up in a faith community
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where our heroes were
those Christians who love their enemies,
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bless those who cursed them, did
good to those who hated them,
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and prayed for those who mistreated them.
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Forgiveness was a very deep,
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foundational concept in our theology.
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At the same
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time, I grew up being abused by an adult
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who was considered an upstanding citizen
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in that same community.
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As all children do.
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I tried to make sense of my world.
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The abuse had to be kept secret,
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so it must be wrong
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if the perpetrator was an upstanding
citizen in the community
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and something wrong was happening
between us,
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then the fault must be mine.
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So I spent a lot of time
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as a child
praying and pleading for forgiveness,
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and still was never able
to stop the abuse.
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The thing that was wrong.
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So I was I was very conflicted.
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There must be something flawed in me,
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so flawed that even God couldn't fix it.
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Or if I entertained the idea
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00:14:52,625 --> 00:14:57,208
that the fault wasn't mine,
then I knew that I should forgive.
252
00:14:57,541 --> 00:14:58,875
And I did.
253
00:14:58,875 --> 00:15:04,458
Often I promised God,
I forgave, but still nothing changed.
254
00:15:05,875 --> 00:15:08,166
Imagine if you can,
255
00:15:08,166 --> 00:15:11,833
the ideas
that developed out of that conflict.
256
00:15:13,041 --> 00:15:16,041
People
couldn't be relied on to care for me.
257
00:15:16,250 --> 00:15:19,250
God either
couldn't or wouldn't protect me.
258
00:15:19,875 --> 00:15:22,208
I was too twisted to be loved,
259
00:15:22,208 --> 00:15:25,208
accepted, or redeemed.
260
00:15:26,708 --> 00:15:27,666
I gave my life to
261
00:15:27,666 --> 00:15:30,666
Jesus and was baptized in my teens.
262
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,625
Then for a short while, I felt relieved
because now I had done everything
263
00:15:35,625 --> 00:15:39,208
the Bible taught for salvation
to the extent of my understanding.
264
00:15:39,625 --> 00:15:42,625
Surely I would be forgiven now.
265
00:15:43,666 --> 00:15:45,500
Then it occurred to me
266
00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:47,916
that I might be responsible for the abuser
267
00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:50,916
going to hell
if I kept the secret and said nothing.
268
00:15:52,208 --> 00:15:55,916
But I kept getting confused
with feeling that if I said anything
269
00:15:55,916 --> 00:16:00,500
it would be mean spirited and unforgiving,
and that was sinful to.
270
00:16:02,416 --> 00:16:06,250
So imagine
trying to reconcile in one soul,
271
00:16:07,041 --> 00:16:10,541
forgiving a sinner and sharing communion
with that same sinner
272
00:16:11,250 --> 00:16:14,375
while maintaining responsible
for hiding the sin
273
00:16:14,375 --> 00:16:17,375
and never letting anyone know about it
year after year.
274
00:16:18,625 --> 00:16:21,500
By the time I turned 30, I had survived
275
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:24,750
depression, burnout,
and an eating disorder,
276
00:16:25,666 --> 00:16:28,583
which all finally led me to talking
about sexual abuse
277
00:16:28,583 --> 00:16:31,458
with a counselor.
278
00:16:31,458 --> 00:16:35,791
When I finally truly understood
279
00:16:36,291 --> 00:16:38,833
that this thing had never been my fault,
280
00:16:38,833 --> 00:16:42,041
and that I had suffered all that guilt
and anguish unnecessarily,
281
00:16:42,708 --> 00:16:45,833
and that this had affected
all my relationships with other people
282
00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:48,000
in lack of trust and so on.
283
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,000
I finally responded in anger,
284
00:16:51,333 --> 00:16:55,333
and I felt like it would be fair
for the abuser to be penalized
285
00:16:56,291 --> 00:16:58,958
according to the
damage caused by the abuse.
286
00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:05,291
Untangling all
the ideas I had woven into my worldview
287
00:17:05,291 --> 00:17:08,791
in all those years was a long, painful,
288
00:17:08,791 --> 00:17:11,791
and sometimes excruciating process.
289
00:17:12,166 --> 00:17:14,791
I share this as a caution
290
00:17:14,791 --> 00:17:17,791
about pushing people
to forgive too quickly.
291
00:17:17,833 --> 00:17:21,625
I tried to forgive for many years,
but I never understood
292
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,208
what I was actually forgiving or what
forgiveness meant.
293
00:17:25,916 --> 00:17:29,750
For so long, my so-called forgiveness
had merely covered
294
00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:32,916
someone’s sin.
295
00:17:33,291 --> 00:17:36,458
I had also been well schooled
in the Matthew 18 format
296
00:17:36,458 --> 00:17:38,625
for dealing with offenses.
297
00:17:38,625 --> 00:17:41,625
So I approached my abuser alone.
298
00:17:42,166 --> 00:17:45,041
In hindsight,
I would recommend that someone
299
00:17:45,041 --> 00:17:49,208
who's been abused from childhood
should never approach their abuser alone.
300
00:17:49,875 --> 00:17:53,791
Even as an adult, the victim requires
a lot of healing before
301
00:17:53,791 --> 00:17:57,833
they can respond as an adult to the one
who's abused them all their life.
302
00:18:00,416 --> 00:18:03,666
Eventually, I was offered an apology.
303
00:18:04,666 --> 00:18:07,083
One of those I can't remember ever
304
00:18:07,083 --> 00:18:11,833
abusing you, but if I offended you
in some way, I'm sorry, deals.
305
00:18:12,250 --> 00:18:15,041
That is not a confession.
306
00:18:15,041 --> 00:18:18,041
There is nothing to forgive
in that statement.
307
00:18:19,083 --> 00:18:21,791
So I waited.
308
00:18:21,791 --> 00:18:24,791
By the time
a confession naming the sin came.
309
00:18:25,583 --> 00:18:28,583
I had adopted the definition
of forgiveness I gave earlier.
310
00:18:29,333 --> 00:18:33,166
It's a while back now,
but I think the courts imposed a two year
311
00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:36,916
no contact order
so that at least that much time
312
00:18:36,916 --> 00:18:39,916
elapsed before I spoke to the abuser
about forgiveness.
313
00:18:41,083 --> 00:18:44,083
By that time,
the sinner had been confronted.
314
00:18:44,583 --> 00:18:46,708
The sin had been named.
315
00:18:46,708 --> 00:18:49,333
A confession had been received.
316
00:18:49,333 --> 00:18:53,208
So I promised to forgive,
to not bring up the sin again
317
00:18:53,208 --> 00:18:56,083
in such a way as to suggest
there was an outstanding debt.
318
00:18:57,666 --> 00:18:59,250
I did this
319
00:18:59,250 --> 00:19:02,250
because Christ died to forgive my sin,
320
00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,625
and because he asked me to forgive others
likewise,
321
00:19:06,125 --> 00:19:09,500
not because I felt like doing it
or because the abuser deserved it.
322
00:19:11,833 --> 00:19:14,500
As the years passed, I came to understand
323
00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:18,083
that some consequences of abuse
to the victim are lifelong.
324
00:19:18,666 --> 00:19:22,000
Confession and forgiveness
do not erase all the scars.
325
00:19:22,750 --> 00:19:27,458
So for me, part of forgiveness
also became agreeing
326
00:19:27,458 --> 00:19:30,458
to bear the penalty of the sin against me.
327
00:19:31,416 --> 00:19:33,541
This is what Jesus did for me.
328
00:19:33,541 --> 00:19:35,083
He paid the price.
329
00:19:35,083 --> 00:19:36,791
He bore the penalty.
330
00:19:36,791 --> 00:19:39,791
I must do the same.
331
00:19:40,083 --> 00:19:43,875
What was not my role in
this scenario was judging
332
00:19:43,875 --> 00:19:47,041
whether or not
the perpetrator had truly repented.
333
00:19:47,875 --> 00:19:50,875
That was between the confessor and God.
334
00:19:51,833 --> 00:19:55,416
Enforcing any type of consequences
was also not my role.
335
00:19:55,958 --> 00:20:00,458
For years, I would have had difficulty
maintaining my commitment to forgiveness.
336
00:20:01,375 --> 00:20:06,583
If I had been any part of deciding
consequences for the offender, I just
337
00:20:06,583 --> 00:20:10,083
wasn't comfortable around this person
until time and God did their work.
338
00:20:10,666 --> 00:20:12,041
And they did.
339
00:20:12,041 --> 00:20:14,416
I consider forgiveness a miracle.
340
00:20:14,416 --> 00:20:15,666
It changes your life.
341
00:20:18,041 --> 00:20:20,958
Now, I guess one consequence,
342
00:20:20,958 --> 00:20:25,416
if you will, that I was part of
was that I didn't return
343
00:20:25,416 --> 00:20:29,125
to live alone with the person
I had forgiven for sexually abusing me.
344
00:20:29,833 --> 00:20:33,916
Some might have thought
that was reconciliation to me.
345
00:20:34,125 --> 00:20:37,541
That would have been like moving
a recovering alcoholic into a bar.
346
00:20:38,166 --> 00:20:41,083
It's love,
not unforgiveness, to help someone
347
00:20:41,083 --> 00:20:44,083
be accountable to God.
348
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:47,125
As you tell your story, Roseanne.
349
00:20:47,125 --> 00:20:49,750
I feel sadness.
350
00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:52,083
I feel weighty.
351
00:20:52,083 --> 00:20:55,083
You really have suffered much,
352
00:20:55,541 --> 00:20:57,666
if it's okay.
353
00:20:57,666 --> 00:21:00,666
Can I ask some follow up questions?
354
00:21:01,958 --> 00:21:03,125
First, you said
355
00:21:03,125 --> 00:21:06,291
that you believed that God either couldn't
356
00:21:07,041 --> 00:21:10,041
or wouldn't protect you,
and you saw yourself as unlovable.
357
00:21:11,875 --> 00:21:14,208
But as I know you now,
358
00:21:14,208 --> 00:21:17,208
I think that your view of God has changed.
359
00:21:17,625 --> 00:21:18,750
How did that happen?
360
00:21:21,083 --> 00:21:23,416
The other thing I was interested to hear
more from
361
00:21:23,416 --> 00:21:26,750
you about was when you said that
362
00:21:27,791 --> 00:21:30,375
part of forgiveness was agreeing to bear
363
00:21:30,375 --> 00:21:33,375
the penalty of the sin against you.
364
00:21:33,875 --> 00:21:36,875
What do you mean by that?
365
00:21:37,291 --> 00:21:37,875
That?
366
00:21:37,875 --> 00:21:40,291
yeah,
that would be a fairly long conversation.
367
00:21:40,291 --> 00:21:43,291
basically.
368
00:21:44,125 --> 00:21:47,625
And, you know, if I was going to try
to do it in a short bit,
369
00:21:48,458 --> 00:21:51,250
that was part
of what counseling was about.
370
00:21:51,250 --> 00:21:53,708
It was about exploring,
371
00:21:53,708 --> 00:21:55,958
recognizing the ideas I had.
372
00:21:55,958 --> 00:21:58,708
Because we grow up with,
373
00:21:58,708 --> 00:22:02,208
the way I've explained it sometimes is
374
00:22:03,125 --> 00:22:05,916
I don't know if you do puzzles,
but most people, when they make puzzles,
375
00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:08,916
they sort of put the frame together first,
376
00:22:09,625 --> 00:22:12,666
and then they make an assumption
that every other piece fits
377
00:22:12,666 --> 00:22:13,625
into that framework somehow.
378
00:22:13,625 --> 00:22:16,625
When we're children,
379
00:22:17,083 --> 00:22:21,958
we develop our ideas of the world
God, people, how things work.
380
00:22:22,416 --> 00:22:25,750
We sort of develop
that framework in our fairly early years,
381
00:22:26,416 --> 00:22:28,916
and then the rest of our lives
we spend just
382
00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:31,916
putting the pieces into that framework.
383
00:22:31,916 --> 00:22:38,833
Now, in my case, I actually had to go
back and undo the framework
384
00:22:40,125 --> 00:22:43,625
and redo it so that different ideas
could fit into it.
385
00:22:43,625 --> 00:22:48,666
And that takes it takes time,
it takes study, it takes prayer,
386
00:22:48,666 --> 00:22:53,625
it takes practice, actually,
you know, recognizing your your thoughts
387
00:22:53,625 --> 00:22:58,875
that are wrong and trying to replace them
with different thoughts.
388
00:22:59,625 --> 00:23:00,583
scripturally, that would be
389
00:23:00,583 --> 00:23:03,958
the idea of sweeping the house
and replacing it with something new.
390
00:23:04,541 --> 00:23:07,541
But it's it's not easy and it's not quick.
391
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:12,000
I don't know if that answers
any of the question for you.
392
00:23:13,041 --> 00:23:15,416
I believe that does. Thank you. The other.
393
00:23:15,416 --> 00:23:16,375
What was the other one?
394
00:23:16,375 --> 00:23:18,208
Oh, about bearing the penalty?
395
00:23:18,208 --> 00:23:20,750
Yes.
396
00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:20,791
Yes.
397
00:23:20,791 --> 00:23:23,791
that's the way
I personally think about things like
398
00:23:24,625 --> 00:23:28,000
I will never be able to see the world
399
00:23:29,333 --> 00:23:31,875
from the perspective of innocence,
400
00:23:31,875 --> 00:23:34,958
a belief that these things don't happen,
401
00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:39,375
that I can't imagine growing up in a home
where you're not abused.
402
00:23:39,375 --> 00:23:44,500
I can't imagine growing up in a place
where these things don't happen.
403
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:45,500
I can't imagine
404
00:23:46,625 --> 00:23:47,875
not, you know,
405
00:23:47,875 --> 00:23:50,958
having had to deal with mistrust
and so on.
406
00:23:50,958 --> 00:23:54,333
Those are prices I had to pay
because no amount of confession
407
00:23:54,333 --> 00:23:57,333
by the abuser
could ever change that for me.
408
00:23:57,416 --> 00:23:59,416
Could ever restore.
409
00:23:59,416 --> 00:24:01,375
God does restore our past.
410
00:24:01,375 --> 00:24:04,000
But some some scars remain.
411
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000
And as long as we keep,
412
00:24:08,500 --> 00:24:11,125
fighting against them,
413
00:24:11,125 --> 00:24:13,833
wishing they weren't so,
414
00:24:13,833 --> 00:24:15,291
it holds us back.
415
00:24:15,291 --> 00:24:18,666
So I kind of made the decision
that that was part
416
00:24:18,666 --> 00:24:23,333
of forgiveness, that I agree to bear
those things, to live with those things,
417
00:24:23,333 --> 00:24:26,333
to allow God to redeem them as he chooses
418
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:29,500
or to leave them as he chooses.
419
00:24:29,875 --> 00:24:30,833
Yeah. Thank you.
420
00:24:30,833 --> 00:24:31,291
Thank you.
421
00:24:31,291 --> 00:24:34,291
That is helpful.
422
00:24:35,291 --> 00:24:35,458
Yeah.
423
00:24:35,458 --> 00:24:38,458
Thank you for engaging with that.
424
00:24:38,791 --> 00:24:42,583
I think we will begin
to bring this episode to an end
425
00:24:42,791 --> 00:24:46,958
or to a close, but is there anything else
that you would like to add?
426
00:24:49,250 --> 00:24:51,250
I guess one thing that I think about
427
00:24:51,250 --> 00:24:54,250
sometimes when I talk about forgiveness
is that
428
00:24:55,250 --> 00:24:58,250
I caution not to compare
429
00:24:58,958 --> 00:25:03,083
forgiving a long history of abuse
by a family or church member
430
00:25:03,416 --> 00:25:07,083
with forgiving a single event
in an adult's life.
431
00:25:07,625 --> 00:25:09,375
All forgiveness is costly.
432
00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:10,916
That's true.
433
00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:14,958
Recently, I had an allegation of racial
discrimination made against me.
434
00:25:14,958 --> 00:25:16,791
Not in good faith,
435
00:25:16,791 --> 00:25:20,333
but that was a very difficult to forgive
as it's a very loaded
436
00:25:20,333 --> 00:25:24,541
topic involved investigation,
potential job loss and all that.
437
00:25:25,375 --> 00:25:28,500
But I would say that it was easier
438
00:25:28,625 --> 00:25:31,625
to process and forgive
439
00:25:31,708 --> 00:25:35,041
a single difficult
event like that as an adult
440
00:25:35,625 --> 00:25:40,000
than my experience of trying
to deal with adults in a child's mind.
441
00:25:40,208 --> 00:25:44,708
there there just aren't enough words
or tools to make sense of it.
442
00:25:45,083 --> 00:25:48,083
And so it's it's
more of a complicated process.
443
00:25:48,083 --> 00:25:48,583
I think.
444
00:25:50,791 --> 00:25:51,750
Well, again, thank you
445
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:54,750
for coming to join us
for this conversation.
446
00:25:54,875 --> 00:26:00,125
And thank you for sharing
about forgiveness as a concept,
447
00:26:00,125 --> 00:26:03,541
but also sharing how
that has been a part of your story.
448
00:26:04,333 --> 00:26:07,333
I trust that
this will be helpful to our audience.
449
00:26:07,541 --> 00:26:10,541
I know it's been helpful for my own
thinking about forgiveness.
450
00:26:11,166 --> 00:26:11,625
Okay.
451
00:26:11,625 --> 00:26:12,416
Thank you.
452
00:29:21,416 --> 00:29:22,375
Hey, Carl.
453
00:29:22,375 --> 00:29:26,291
This is, another recording
that I'm making for a couple reasons.
454
00:29:26,333 --> 00:29:27,458
One is because the other
455
00:29:27,458 --> 00:29:30,458
recording the main recording with others
and did not have a hook.
456
00:29:31,458 --> 00:29:34,458
Also.
457
00:29:35,333 --> 00:29:38,000
It's like this
458
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,166
today, I was about as comfortable
459
00:29:40,166 --> 00:29:45,291
as I usually am on camera,
which is to say, very uncomfortable.
460
00:29:45,833 --> 00:29:48,833
So I wasn't as articulate
as I wanted to be.
461
00:29:49,875 --> 00:29:53,458
With that being the case,
there are two particular questions
462
00:29:53,458 --> 00:29:58,333
that I am interested in having replaced.
463
00:30:00,625 --> 00:30:04,166
One is
where I ask Roseanna, tell her story.
464
00:30:04,958 --> 00:30:07,958
I said that a little bit clumsily.
465
00:30:08,166 --> 00:30:12,208
Also, after Rosanne told her story
and I asked for some follow up questions,
466
00:30:12,208 --> 00:30:15,625
I was both uncomfortable and a little bit
emotional and incredibly inarticulate.
467
00:30:16,208 --> 00:30:20,125
So I think that if that question
could be replaced,
468
00:30:21,291 --> 00:30:24,291
well,
469
00:30:25,833 --> 00:30:28,166
we can make it better.
470
00:30:28,166 --> 00:30:31,166
So here goes with the hook.
471
00:30:33,875 --> 00:30:36,875
let me get my nerves up.
472
00:30:41,541 --> 00:30:43,250
What is forgiveness?
473
00:30:43,250 --> 00:30:45,125
When should it be given?
474
00:30:45,125 --> 00:30:48,125
And how does the Bible illustrate
forgiveness?
475
00:30:53,291 --> 00:30:54,666
What is forgiveness?
476
00:30:54,666 --> 00:30:56,500
When should it be given?
477
00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:59,500
And how does the Bible illustrate it?
478
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:05,000
What is forgiveness?
479
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,250
When should it be given?
480
00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:09,250
And how does the Bible illustrate it?
481
00:31:12,333 --> 00:31:14,583
Do you think that will work?
482
00:31:14,583 --> 00:31:17,583
I hope so.
483
00:35:11,083 --> 00:35:11,500
Okay.
484
00:35:11,500 --> 00:35:13,791
The next what I'm going to do is
485
00:35:15,583 --> 00:35:18,041
the question where I ask Roseanne
486
00:35:18,041 --> 00:35:21,041
to tell her story.
487
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:27,833
We can speak about forgiveness
488
00:35:27,833 --> 00:35:31,000
conceptually and in a rather detached way.
489
00:35:31,875 --> 00:35:35,458
but something I'm conscious of
is that these questions
490
00:35:35,458 --> 00:35:38,541
about forgiveness
have deep implications for the human soul.
491
00:35:39,541 --> 00:35:42,500
And for many people,
questions of forgiveness come with vivid
492
00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:46,375
memories, deep pain, and real
493
00:35:46,666 --> 00:35:49,666
heart rending implications.
494
00:35:50,541 --> 00:35:53,250
On a previous occasion, I think,
495
00:35:53,250 --> 00:35:56,541
I think it was one of the earlier episodes
that you did with us,
496
00:35:57,166 --> 00:36:00,750
you shared with, you shared with us
how the choice of forgiveness
497
00:36:00,916 --> 00:36:03,916
has directly confronted you.
498
00:36:05,166 --> 00:36:08,166
So can you share with us about this?
499
00:36:14,125 --> 00:36:17,666
We can speak about forgiveness
conceptually and in a rather
500
00:36:17,666 --> 00:36:19,958
detached fashion.
501
00:36:19,958 --> 00:36:23,041
But these questions have deep implications
for the human soul.
502
00:36:23,041 --> 00:36:27,125
And for many people,
questions of forgiveness come with vivid
503
00:36:28,125 --> 00:36:30,875
memories, deep pain and
504
00:36:30,875 --> 00:36:33,875
real heart rending implications.
505
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,333
On a previous occasion,
506
00:36:36,333 --> 00:36:40,791
and I think it was in one of the episodes
that we already, published with you,
507
00:36:41,583 --> 00:36:44,166
you shared with us
that the choice of forgiveness
508
00:36:44,166 --> 00:36:47,166
has directly confronted you.
509
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:50,750
Can you share about this?
510
00:36:57,833 --> 00:36:58,583
One of the things
511
00:36:58,583 --> 00:37:02,083
I'm conscious of when we talk about
this is that,
512
00:37:03,291 --> 00:37:06,541
though we can talk about it
in a rather detached fashion,
513
00:37:07,958 --> 00:37:10,333
the questions
and the realities of forgiveness
514
00:37:10,333 --> 00:37:14,291
have very deep, deep implications
for the human soul.
515
00:37:15,166 --> 00:37:18,166
And for many people,
516
00:37:18,583 --> 00:37:21,250
questions of forgiveness
come with vivid memories.
517
00:37:21,250 --> 00:37:23,458
deep pain
518
00:37:23,458 --> 00:37:27,291
and just real heart rending implications.
519
00:37:30,291 --> 00:37:32,666
On a previous occasion,
I think in a previous episode
520
00:37:32,666 --> 00:37:36,000
you did with us,
you shared that the choice of forgiveness
521
00:37:36,666 --> 00:37:39,000
has confronted you directly.
522
00:37:40,166 --> 00:37:41,166
So I was wondering if you
523
00:37:41,166 --> 00:37:44,166
could share with us about that.
524
00:40:16,375 --> 00:40:18,875
Not sure what was going on there
in the middle, but I think either
525
00:40:18,875 --> 00:40:21,875
the first try or this last try that I did,
526
00:40:22,166 --> 00:40:25,166
would be better than.
527
00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:27,875
What happened
when I was actually in the conversation
528
00:40:27,875 --> 00:40:30,875
with Roseanne?
529
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,000
one more thing to do is,
530
00:40:36,750 --> 00:40:39,750
what I said after Roseanne told her story
531
00:40:40,291 --> 00:40:43,291
and ask for follow up questions.
532
00:40:44,416 --> 00:40:47,416
I don't know,
you could probably do this better.
533
00:40:47,875 --> 00:40:50,875
I'm going to try to,
534
00:40:51,666 --> 00:40:54,666
do it over again.
535
00:41:03,208 --> 00:41:03,625
As you
536
00:41:03,625 --> 00:41:06,625
tell your story, Roseanne, I feel sadness
537
00:41:07,250 --> 00:41:08,541
and I feel weighty.
538
00:41:08,541 --> 00:41:11,541
You have suffered much.
539
00:41:12,375 --> 00:41:13,875
If it's okay,
540
00:41:13,875 --> 00:41:16,875
can I ask some follow up questions?
541
00:41:17,208 --> 00:41:20,625
First, you said that you believe that
God either couldn't
542
00:41:21,375 --> 00:41:25,083
or wouldn't protect you,
and you saw yourself as unlovable.
543
00:41:26,375 --> 00:41:26,916
But as I
544
00:41:26,916 --> 00:41:30,000
know you
now, your view of God has changed.
545
00:41:30,916 --> 00:41:33,916
How did that happen?
546
00:41:34,583 --> 00:41:35,458
And the other question
547
00:41:35,458 --> 00:41:38,833
had to do with when you said that for you.
548
00:41:38,875 --> 00:41:42,791
Part of forgiveness was agreeing to bear
the penalty of the sin against you.
549
00:41:43,625 --> 00:41:46,625
What did you mean by that?
550
00:41:50,916 --> 00:41:52,541
As you tell your story, Roseanne.
551
00:41:52,541 --> 00:41:55,166
I feel sadness.
552
00:41:55,166 --> 00:41:57,500
I feel weighty.
553
00:41:57,500 --> 00:42:00,500
You really have suffered much,
554
00:42:00,958 --> 00:42:03,083
if it's okay.
555
00:42:03,083 --> 00:42:06,083
Can I ask some follow up questions?
556
00:42:07,375 --> 00:42:08,541
First, you said
557
00:42:08,541 --> 00:42:11,708
that you believed that God either couldn't
558
00:42:12,458 --> 00:42:15,458
or wouldn't protect you,
and you saw yourself as unlovable.
559
00:42:17,291 --> 00:42:19,625
But as I know you now,
560
00:42:19,625 --> 00:42:22,625
I think that your view of God has changed.
561
00:42:23,041 --> 00:42:26,041
How did that happen?
562
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,166
The other thing I was interested
563
00:42:28,166 --> 00:42:32,166
to hear
more from you about was when you said that
564
00:42:33,208 --> 00:42:35,125
part of forgiveness was agreeing
565
00:42:35,125 --> 00:42:38,208
to bear
the penalty of the sin against you.
566
00:42:39,291 --> 00:42:42,291
What do you mean by that?
567
00:42:52,166 --> 00:42:52,500
Okay.
568
00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:55,166
That's all.
I think I'm going to stop with that.
569
00:42:55,166 --> 00:42:59,083
Hopefully something in there is,
570
00:43:00,458 --> 00:43:02,708
better than what happened
the first time around.
571
00:43:02,708 --> 00:43:05,708
Thank you.
572
00:43:19,125 --> 00:43:20,625
Well, as I.
573
00:43:20,625 --> 00:43:22,250
As I hear you tell your story.
574
00:43:22,250 --> 00:43:26,125
it's heavy stuff, and I.
575
00:43:26,291 --> 00:43:29,291
I really feel,
576
00:43:30,250 --> 00:43:33,250
A second hand, but I think.
577
00:43:33,250 --> 00:43:35,166
Yeah, it just makes me sad.
578
00:43:35,166 --> 00:43:36,208
I'm sorry.
579
00:43:36,208 --> 00:43:39,208
Sorry to hear that.
580
00:43:43,708 --> 00:43:46,708
There were a few things that you said
that I would be
581
00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:50,625
interested in raising a
a follow up question on,
582
00:43:52,041 --> 00:43:52,791
is that something
583
00:43:52,791 --> 00:43:55,791
you would be comfortable with
584
00:43:55,875 --> 00:43:57,791
in this section?
585
00:43:57,791 --> 00:44:00,791
So, and,
586
00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:07,166
You mentioned
587
00:44:07,166 --> 00:44:10,166
burying the penalty of the sin.
588
00:44:10,208 --> 00:44:13,666
That was that was one thing I would be
interested in hearing more. What
589
00:44:14,875 --> 00:44:15,875
what did you mean?
590
00:44:15,875 --> 00:44:20,750
And saying that you agree to create to
bear the penalty of the sin against you.
591
00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:23,750
And the other thing was,
592
00:44:25,833 --> 00:44:28,125
Oh, you mentioned how
593
00:44:28,125 --> 00:44:30,791
how you viewed God.
594
00:44:30,791 --> 00:44:33,916
during the time of the abuse.
595
00:44:36,708 --> 00:44:38,416
And I guess I'm assuming
596
00:44:38,416 --> 00:44:41,416
that your view of God
has changed with time.
597
00:44:43,041 --> 00:44:45,291
would that be something
598
00:44:45,291 --> 00:44:48,291
you'd be interested in talking about? How?
599
00:44:49,875 --> 00:44:51,833
How you were able
600
00:44:51,833 --> 00:44:52,916
if you if God developed.