Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness

On this episode, and I discuss attachment.

Take a seat clear mind and let's chat

Hello, hello.

Hopefully we're doing it. We're really doing it.

About attachment.

We are. I also was just talking about since like, you know, the internet wasn't really being cooperative earlier that I was like, Oh, it sounds like it's working. Let's hope that it does. Y'all can't help with us because we've already recorded this.

Let's hope so. attach any dimensions right?

Or just one

eye? Yes, yeah, yes ish. I went to Encyclopedia Britannica for a little bit of a change attachment theory. In will part of why though I did go to Encyclopedia Britannica is one I knew the dictionary was going to be like attachment is like when things are together, you know, or something like that. I didn't even look it up, but did also want the psychological. And I also didn't want it from someone who learned about attachment theory from their therapist and has now built a brand around it. So that's why I went to the good old fashion encyclopedia. That's also how you know I'm old. But attachment theory and developmental psychology, the theory that humans are born with a need to form a close emotional bond with a caregiver, and that such a bond will develop during the first six months of a child's life, if the caregiver is appropriately responsive, developed by British psychologist John Bowlby, I would guess, bow LP for I don't know all you British psychologist, and I know there's many of

you don't, don't ask me. Yeah,

all five of you raising your hands. This theory focused on the experience, expression and regulation of emotions at both species normative and individual person's specific levels of analysis. Bowlby believed that the attachment system as he and others called called it serve two primary functions to protect vulnerable individuals from potential threats or harm and to regulate negative emotions following threatening or harmful events. The normative component component of attachment theory identifies the stimuli and contexts that normally evoke and terminate different kinds of emotions as well as the sequence of emotions usually experience following certain relational events. The individual difference component addresses how people's personal histories of receiving care and support from attachment figures shape their goals working models, interpersonal attitudes, expectations and cognitive skills and coping strategies when emotion eliciting events in relationship occur. I have a lot thankfully, got to a well okay, so then attachment styles, there are four there is anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, disorganized attachment and secure attachment. And then I looked at where And okay, so then, research on Bowlby theory of attachment show that infants placed in an unfamiliar situation and separated from their parents will generally react in one of three ways upon reunion with the parents. One secure attachment these infants showed distress upon separation but comfort and were easily comforted when the parents returned to anxious resistant attachment. A smaller portion of infants experience greater levels of distress, and upon reuniting with the parent seem to seek both comfort and to attempt to punish the parents for leaving. Three avoidant attachment infants in the third category, it showed no stress or minimal stress upon separation from the parents and either ignored the parents upon reuniting or actively void the parents. I think those were cats. I think those were cats that were left not infants. I love them. I don't know. They were like, I don't know her. Like she left me there.

I just don't know. That was probably me.

I just like the idea of these like bitchy infants being like, Oh, you laughed. Well, now you're dead to me like yeah,

like, like flipping the hair. Whatever it Hope you had fun. I

hope you enjoyed it. In later years, researchers added a fourth attachment saw to this list the disorganized disoriented attachment style, which refers to children who have no predictable pattern of attachment behaviors. I thought that was really interesting in terms of sort of, like how it you know, like how they kind of they, you know, broke it down. And things like that. And the different like, I think it is so interesting, just to think of it as, I don't know, I think it's still just blows my mind that this starts so young, like I had therapy last night and had a good ol mental breakdown in preparation preparation for this episode, which is really great. You know, loving that for me. Yeah, loving that for you, too. I mean, it was good. It's necessary, whatever. I mean, sometimes you like know, when shits gonna pop off in therapy, and other times you don't. And this was time when? I don't know, I think I in a way kind of knew I was probably brewing from for some realizations, because I don't know, you can kind of see when that's on the horizon, I think. But I was asking her, I was like, it's just so crazy. I said, you know, when I did the quiz, I said, I felt a little. I was like, I felt I was upset. I was like, I wasn't upset. So I'll reveal mine. I was anxious, which I was anxious, preoccupied, which didn't surprise me at all. I did not think I was gonna, like, be secure. I didn't. But something about the way we and we need an I did our our little test. I always said we did our little testes and like, oh, no, but then I had to tell myself anyway, we did it at the attachment project. And they do, I think, a good job of explaining things. But it's also like, you know, really honest, and it's, I mean, kind of, I think, hard to hear in a way. Like, I know, for me, what was hard about reading my own little report, one times, I'm looking through my little the whole little thing, it's like, they almost give you too much information. Oh, this, but he was Well, essentially was just sort of saying that there was that you that my, like my parents maybe had tried, you know, to meet my needs and all that sort of stuff, but weren't able to understand or how to do it. And so that also triggered, you know, from my attempt to like, essentially work harder, and all this stuff. And I was just like, oh my god, there's just a lot of this that I agree with and for secure, is 59% of adults per one large nationally representative study. And anxious preoccupied, I was surprised is 11% of American adults.

I was shocked at how high the secure was. And I was shocked that I got that

I wasn't shocked at all. I was not worried at all. No. Yeah, I wasn't I mean, that not even because you're married. I mean, if you think that's a fact. No, no, I mean, I don't. Well, Christina and I hashed it out last night. And I was like, I didn't think that Nina was gonna be I was like, I'm not upset because Nina secure and I'm not by the way, like I don't think you are. And I was thinking I don't think Nina secure because she's married she's I don't think you Okay, I just

want to be clear. Oh my god. If I had taken this quiz like 10 years ago, though, that it's something I was reading or listening to in the attached book. What was that by Hang on one second. We'll put it in the notes but I have it right here attached by blah blee. Baby about a year Levine and Rachel Heller. What but they were saying that it can and does change. So that's great news. And it definitely made me feel good that I've obviously because I answered everything very honestly, Sam, so much of mine I laughed about though we're like I chose a lot of neutral which I think was kind on my part. But it was honest, like I felt I did feel neutral on more things than I thought I would which I think was a part of the the results but yeah, I I am happy to hear and know that things can change because obviously we know that but especially with this stuff, I think quizzes I take with a grain of salt but something has shifted and it's nice to see that on paper.

Because like as I was weeping in therapy less I was I'm not crying because of an internet test. Okay? And she's like, again. I was like, oh my god years ago, I did this test and I was secure. She's like, I know, I remember you telling me really? Yeah, I was. Isn't that interesting?

That is interesting. So what do you think shifted honesty?

Or? Yeah, maybe? Yeah, you know, I think it's like, I think something I do, I'm realizing is my perfectionism runs much deeper than I've probably been willing to realize. Which has covered up a lot, you know, and I think that a lot of things, I think, part of why seeing the results and like reading what, you know, being anxious, like you like some of the stuff that comes with it. And I mean, like, I'll, I'm like, I'll be honest, I don't care like is if y'all are like, you know, forcing me to or something. I'm like, oh, read it. Don't give a fuck. But it's like you email Oh, yeah. You may feel as though you're less than others, the low sense of self esteem associated with the anxious attachment style often results in feelings of not being good enough. Yeah. 1,000% Do you know how much of my life and therapy healing being a fucking tarot reader the amount of my life that has been occupied by trying to heal that? And I think in so when I was talking to my therapist, I was like, it's so confusing, because I'm like, I don't think I have low self esteem. You know, I don't think I have these things. But I would be lying. If I didn't say that I grappled with these things, you know, like, and it was funny, I brought you up, I said, I've seen so much of this play out with my partnership with Nina of like, where she doesn't doubt herself. And where I do, like, it's a huge place, you and I diverge, you know, and I'm like, in this makes so much sense to me, like you are more secure than I am, you know, like in that regard. And so when I was talking to my therapist about it, she's like, a lot of this stuff for you, was put into place, probably by 18 months old. Like, that's just what we know, now at this point, you know, firmly in place by four years old, you know, and I was, I don't know, like, that's just so mind boggling. You know, and I was like, what makes me upset is I've spent so much time, energy money, because like, let's talk about that money is a huge factor in healing anything, you know, what, you're getting access to anything. So that I was like, and I'm still I'm 42 years old, and I'm still fucking here, you know? And she was like, I feel that I get that, you know, but um, she's like, the best thing about attachment wounds. And I was like, hmm, this is gonna be a hard sell for you, Christina. What is the best thing of attachment wounds is she's like, they can be healed, they absolutely can be healed and repaired. And I think I offer that up to myself as much as I do to any of y'all listening. Because I do think there's so much out there about attachment. There's so much on the internet, there's so much on social media, it's very trendy. I don't hear people talking so much about how you heal it. I hear a lot of people just talking about what their attachment style is, and what maybe that does for them. And so I said, when I was saying that, you know, to my therapist, and I was like, I have this very physical reaction sometimes to like, when someone is trying to connect with me. And that's when I made her texted to me because I was like, I'm gonna forget this. And she said, and she was like, Tell me about it. What happens did it and she goes, it's not so much relationships, love or all that stuff that freaks you out it's connection because the people you trusted to keep you safe and alive were the people that unintentionally unintentionally slash intentionally harmed you. So you internalize connection is not being safe. So she's like, when you're leading it when you're going out in the world, or you're on Instagram, or you're, you know, emailing someone and saying, like, I think you're cool or whatever, she's like, You have no problems because you're leading the charge in terms of connection. She's like, it's when someone comes at you, you're having that knee jerk reaction that you've kind of never known life without. And I was like, oh, okay, and that's when I fully lost it. And in then it was like, I feel like you've just like handed me this key. That like unlocked my life in this big way, because it felt like such a.

You know, it's like so crazy sometimes when you read it or I'm like reading back or text and I'm like, I don't know how to put into context for anyone, like how revelatory that was or helpful. And I was like, okay, cool, what do I do about it? And she's like, well, you just have to ask yourself sometimes, when that happens when you feel that feeling when you feel that knee jerk reaction, when you feel that like fear or whatever, you have to just ask yourself, like, is this a time that I need to be protective? Or do I need to open my heart and lean full heart in? And I was like, I don't like that. But okay, you know,

how did your parents hurt you? Big question.

Oh, my God.

How did they lose your trust? And what was the first time? Like, when do you remember that happening for the first time? Not that it didn't sit in your body before that, but

I don't know, they ever really had it. I mean, honestly, like, I mean, it, it's like, I think what makes me so sad now is it's like this comedy of errors in so many ways. You know, my mom was, was 28 when she had me, she didn't really even like, go into therapy at all until, like her 30s. And so it's like, there was a lot of like, benign neglect, a lot of emotional neglect. And it and it wasn't intentional. Also, to my dad, not present at all, like both. He's very much being the 80s executive, you know, Father working a lot. Kids are the are the mother's domain. Very, I didn't think of it as it didn't. I guess it was patriarchal. I mean, it absolutely was patriarchal. My mom was like a stay at home mom, you know, mom, blah, blah, blah, but like, it was just like, he, so he and he was a high functioning alcoholic. So he like he's not really present. And then my mom is talks about when my brother and I were young is the happiest time of her life, which is like, also baffling, you know, cuz I don't know, it's like, something I think about when I was a kid is just sort of, like, anytime my brother and I were like, people or children in a way, like, you know, if we spilled ice cream, or like my brother, you know, like, broke a window playing, you know, baseball or what it's like, everything was always a big deal. Like, there was no, there was no coping skills, really, there was no, and like, emotions were absolutely not really taken care of or met. And my mom was really, I think my mom was so overwhelmed. And was so focused on the work of motherhood of the like, everything will be homemade, you know, all they will always be like, dressed well and look presentable in public, like, and not just like, because of other people's opinions or anything like that. Like, she, I see it with her still today, like this stuff. She'll get on me about like, she's very, I guess, like, all of this stuff. That's very rational, linear. You don't like all of that. So intellectualized you know, all of that. But in like it not to say like, when I was an infant do I think if I lay there just crying for hours? No, but do

I think that's important to talk about? Because like, that didn't happen? Yeah. Like I don't? I don't know. Half?

Yeah, well, right. But I think my mom, like I think between both my I mean, my dad had so much fucking trauma that like, I'm not like trying to let him off the hook, but I'm just sort of trying to make clear of like, who we were dealing with, you know, and then my mom, I think, just I mean, like, you still have given me my favorite line of like, did your mom like go through a war? You know, like, I don't think she had any idea of like, how to comfort or how to, like really attend to any of the emotional needs. I mean, I've had to teach her as an adult how to attend to her emotional needs so I know for a fact she was not tending to mines like as a toddler, you know, like when this stuff is key? I don't believe it was happening

yeah, and something happened today with Milo it's been happening a lot lately lately where he's like, he thinks that I he's okay. So he He peed on the floor by accident. No, no big deal. That thing flies everywhere, you know. And it's also just funny. Like I sometimes I really do love to hear like, what mom problems are. And it's like, well, today we had some pee on the floor. Yeah. Be on the floor situation. And I and he's like, I'm so sorry. I'm so so sorry. I'm like, Honey, it's okay. It's fascinating to me that I have legitimately never gotten like, outwardly mad at him. And he is still like, so now at this stage at like, four. He's, like, really worried that I'll be mad at him. And I'm like, Where's that coming from? And he's like, I'll be punished. I was like, you've never been punished in your life, you will never be punished in your life. Like, by me, what, Where's this coming from? I can't imagine if I wasn't, and I have to talk to him over and over again. Be like, Mommy is not mad at you. You peed on the floor. There's a song and one of this show that we watched it. It's like, everybody makes mistakes. And it's all right. And I like sing him the song. But it's really sad. And also just blows my mind that like his little human body brain is like, somehow creating that story for a second. It doesn't last longer than that. But, and then he's like, Okay, everybody makes mistakes. It's okay. But I'm just like, where did that where does that come from? And one of the things that I wanted to read about was or to, to point out was absolutely, and in Psychology Today, I was reading it. Parents can influence attachment security. It's also clear that other factors, including genetics play a formative role. I find like, right, but like how, I guess, well, I guess that's what my ancestral trauma. Yeah. Like, yeah.

I mean, when I, you know, said to my, you know, therapist, as I get that, it's mind boggling to think that this was like, had happened by 18 months. She's like, honestly, she's like, it's happening in the womb. Like, it is, like, you know,

she's like, oh, yeah, for sure.

Think about people, you know, like, you're, you're not just sharing, you know, like, a home. Like, they're feeling everything, you know, like, and all of that. And I'm like, That's so everything. Yeah. Like, it's been interesting to think about, like, you know, with my mom, as I tried to, I think, because the thing is, is like, my, I, there's no one I love more than my mom. But also there's no one that makes me more insane than my mom. But, um, as I try, I think, to let go of a lot of my own past, because I don't think it's serving me at this point. It also softens be with my mom, and it helps me better understand her. And the last time I was out and spent a lot of time with her, I asked her, I was like, you know, how you sort of like, go away when you're upset? And she's like, and I was like, when did you start doing that? And she's like, Oh, God, I don't know. She's like, I was firmly doing it. By the time I was eight. And I mentioned it to my therapist, and she was like, well, then that mean, she was doing it before the age of five. You know, like, if she couldn't remember it at eight. That means it had been going on for a long time. You know, and I was like, that's fascinating, that that coping skill, because it's also, like a kind of cool thing about my mom, like, if you fuck up in a big way, my mom's also never gonna bring it up again. Like, that's one good thing about someone who's a little, you know, kind of closed down. She's also not going to revisit it. We're just kind of cool. And I think it's been, it's been interesting for me to think about like, okay, maybe my parents had the point of origin. But how has this influenced like, our family dynamic, like something about hearing my mom starting this, you know, like, hearing her coping strategies like strategies and survival mechanisms that began so young, like it's made me be less I think, obsessed and in love with my own and made me take a greater understanding of what my own families maybe trauma is in pain, you know, like it I think, as a white person, I should I shy away sometimes from intergenerational trauma, because I'm like, like, do I have it? And then, of course we do. Everybody does. Anyone who has ancestors does, but you know, I don't want to take up too too much space in that conversation. But when I do think of it in looking at my own family, personally, I'm like, Whoa, yeah.

Well, you don't have to do it on social media, but you got to do Do it because I was just with my aunt this weekend. And she was like, she's the only one in my family who will talk about. I mean, maybe I haven't asked my mom enough. But my mom doesn't really like to talk about her past. But my aunt is a lawyer and she loves she's so inquisitive. She's been asking questions all her life, about our family, and about where we come from. And on both sides of my family, both parents of my mom's were, I don't want to say abandoned in some ways, but like, had had to be detached from their parents what my grandfather was sent to an orphanage after so his dad died, and his mom could not afford to keep her two children. I mean, horrific. She sends my grandfather to an orphanage on I think it was on the Upper West Side anyway, not not necessarily important, but kind of interesting, because that's where, like, I landed the first, you know, year of being in New York, and just who you didn't you don't even know what swirling around you. I had no idea that my family, whatever. Yeah, so. So he, and then she got him back. But it had been years. So imagine you're with your mom, then you then your dad dies, then you have to leave your mom to go into an orphanage, you come back a teenager, I mean, how was he going to be a good father, which he was not, he was angry and treated my mom off, like in an awful manner. And you know, maybe there were good things, but I've never heard any. So that's her father than her mother. Mom. When she was pregnant with my grandmother, her husband died. Well, then she went back to Germany to like, get something or figure tie up some loose ends. And while she was there, her sister and so my mom or my grandmother was back in the States, or wait no other way around. My grandmother was in Germany, my great grandmother went to the States, her sister while she was in the States convinced her that there was no life for her in Germany. So my grandmother and my grandfather are there for I think years without her imagine she's like, be right back. Just going to the States for a minute and doesn't come back for years.

I mean, so it is. Yeah. I mean, it's like, part of me is like, I don't want to judge because I'm like, What the fuck would I have done, you know? But then I'm also like, how did we not as a society going, this is going to have repercussions like this is,

we still don't do that. We let children I will get so heated about this. And I'm sorry, if you've done this. I'm not judging you. But I, but I believe the practice is cruel. My personally, I find it so upsetting that one of our ways of parenting newborns is to let them cry it out. I think it's sick. I think it's sad. And I don't understand how people don't see how that shuts babies down. Of course, they're gonna figure it out eventually. But what there is another way, and I'm not saying that everybody should be having a family bed. That's not what I'm saying. I understand that there are so many different ways to parent and it's not for me to judge. However, we have so many adults who are so so so disconnected and detached. And you don't think anything any of that has to do with how they were raised as infants. Of course it does, like if you train a baby to be okay. Alone, they're going to be okay alone, quote, unquote, you know, yeah. And that does not is not helpful. I'm not saying just, you know, if, if you were left in a crib, you will not like, I'm sure I was, you know, I know I was left in a crib. I don't my mom didn't breastfeed. It's not I'm okay. But I'm just saying there are things that I really believe we do as a culture and society that are so damaging, and we just act as if they're normal. We send children away wet well, before they're ready. I think I

agree. But here's the thing. I, I'm gonna say something, what's a little bit spicy, but a lot of my friends also to like their kids that I'm sort of like, this feels a bit like a gamble of whether or not these are going to be very, very spoiled, entitled children. That some of the the, like, trends now like, some of it feels super positive and like such a departure from how we were raised fully agree, and I'm like, thank FUCKING GOD, but then I have friends that I don't know that they've ever said no to their children, or no is also a bit of a joke. Well, they'll say no, but the child still always gets their way. And I'm like, isn't there a difference between like, emotional neglect and like free for all? I don't see a lot of nuance to be honest with the week modern parenting. And I just sort of like, I mean, like, all of it seems overwhelming. And like a lot of work. And I'm glad that I'm maybe going to age out of it. So I don't you know, I'm more not judging anybody real

bad. And the Real Housewives of one of the Real Housewives just had a baby. And she's like, 50 something. So like, I don't know, you've had have some time to go. But well, a couple things is that, I think a huge part of our parents generation, and still now but definitely our parents. And it's trickling down into I see, you know, a lot with, like, 40 Somethings, whatever is the, quote, work aspect, I'm not denying that there's, there's a workload with being a mom, I'm not denying that, of course, there is there's many hours of labor, many, many. However, if that becomes the focus, then so many of the emotional needs, and the physical needs of a kid are not met. Because there's this high, high, high, high importance placed on just I feel like it's this thought pattern that a lot of people had back in the day and probably still do have, like, it's so hard. It's so hard. It's so hard, I have to, you know, just do whatever I can to make it easier on myself. Great. But in that you are neglecting your child, you just are you just are it. There's no way not to because you're so focused on yourself, that you're looking at this person as a job, that there's no way for you to really see what they need fully. I don't think so. I feel like there's a happy medium for that as well. You can not you can give yourself this, you know, kind of talk about Yes, this is shit, man. This is a lot of responsibility. And it's hard and whatever you want to say to yourself, there's no wrong motion. However, if that's the focus, I really think kids suffer. And I think a lot of our generation did suffer because of that.

Absolutely. I mean, I think the problem with a lot of parents or a lot of people, our generation is parents misunderstood. Like what the OSI assignments were they were like, Oh, you're supposed to do you know. And so, a friend of mine, Nick Weber is he's a belonging coach, but does. He's focused in Family Constellations, and he had done a post on Instagram, about how to know if your parents were emotionally neglected. And he's like, I've been going back and reflecting on the book children of emotionally immature parents. There's a part of it, where it talks about how the primary goal of parenting up until the 60s in the US was obedience. good parenting was seen as the ability to mold children into behaving properly, teaching them that their children should be seen and not heard. They should not act out, especially in public or be emotional was the dominant belief system. 60 years later, we see the effects of this way of parenting. Living in a household that only focuses on obedience leaves, children and later adults struggling to manage or understand their utter internal emotional world. A household that values obedience over anything else means everything's alright as long as you're not being too loud, emotions are immature and or a form of acting out. You're spoiled or bratty if you cry too much. children's problems are insignificant compared to the inherent problems that I would say

that's a huge one

huge thing in my household growing up like and so I was when I here's what I was trying to find earlier about the the How does your attachment style develop? The anxious preoccupied attachment style referred to as ambivalent and children is typically formed during the formative period in a child's life, the first 18 bonds as a response to the child's relationship with their primary caregiver. It is believed that this attachment style forms from the child's perception of how their caregivers responded to their needs, and their understanding, they perceive their caregiver as neglecting their needs. However, it's important to understand that these caregiver givers likely do not intentionally neglect their child's wants and needs, but instead that they that the child understood their actions in this way and that kind of fucked me up as well, because I'm like, I mean, not that I think my parents intentionally did it, but I was like, Oh my God, this thing that feels like it really like has dominated my life was like, all just a misunderstanding. Yeah, totally. You know, a fucking baby couldn't say like, Y'all are sort of not doing this, right. You know, like for me,

like, Oh, this isn't working for me. Yeah, hi.

When I cry, I want you to, you know, like it because, I mean, my mom, like, the things I love the most about myself, like, directly come from my mom. But we are hugely different people. So it's also to just like, like, so funny to me. You know, like, my mom's like, emotions are gross. I want nothing to do with him. And I'm like, I love emotions. How could we have more. So it's like, also hilarious just to think of My poor mom, like trying to, like, figure anything out about motherhood, you know, and gets this like, perfect storm of two water sign children's for her Aquarius time. But anyway, consider a situation where a child understands that their caregiver is leaving for a few days, the child responds by becoming clingy and upset because they're going to miss their caregiver. However, if the caregiver was to misinterpret their child's behaviors as an attention seeking, and instead of, oh, this is my childhood, this is my phone 100% My childhood I like, instead of cuddling and soothing them, that they will be home soon, they punish them by refusing to give them affection. And this case, the caregiver is Miss attuned to the child's cues. And the child responds by thinking they're not going to take care of my needs. So I need to try harder. If I persist, the other person will understand what I want, and they will take care of me. And then that started to cycle with both my parents that they didn't like me because I tried to please them. They thought I was weak. On eBay. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of impact me not lots to unpack. This has been one of those topics that I was like, yeah, yeah, let's do attachment. And it was like, Oh, cool. It's gonna be an excavation of my psyche. Wonderful. Literally.

How do you think you became secure? Yeah, it does.

Funny question. I don't think all of it was healthy.

I feel like I had so much positive reinforcement from my parents. And there was a lot that was done. There was a lot that was done. Right? Well, ish, I'll say bye. Like, they didn't. They there wasn't room for my emotions, that's for sure. And so I just started taking care of myself, I, and that became really, really messy for me. In you know, at points in my life, because I, I thought I was taking care of myself, but what I was really doing was seeking it, you know, in other people, especially in male relationships, and just attaching to them. And what I was when I was reading the attachment attached book it was talking about, well, I guess it was, I can't remember which which style, but oh, this is what I wanted to do. One of the things I wanted to talk about was protests, behavior. Do you know about that? Ah, interesting. Right? So if essentially, back in ye olden days, prehistoric times, what was what's built into us in our DNA is that you stay close to your loved ones. It was it's a matter of life and death, right? So our systems developed to treat this as a necessity, right? Like that is just again, part of who we are, no matter who raises us. That's why there's this kind of like animal. Oh my God, I'll tell you about the playground thing. We went to a playground and Sag Harbor and Milo there was like these three girls and there were like, one of them was like, get me more sand. I need more sand. It's like it's right underneath you.

What are you talking about? You're literally sitting on it try are standing

on it, honey, like lollipops out of their mouth. And one of them was like, she he's a boy. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then one of them. One of the girls was like, he can't play on that. I'm like, Oh, yes, he can. She's like, my brother's using it. I'm like, No, he's not. He is not using it. He will use this Anyway, the animal in me and way felt that too and you know, way is way Mo, obviously, everybody on this fucking podcast knows he's way more even tempered than I am. And he was like, I don't give a fuck i that, like, I don't care if we have to keep them home till he's buggin like 1050 He will not follow people around, he will not like he was like, fuck those kids. He was, he was even more shocked than I was, there was maybe a few cute kids who are like nice, not cute, they're all cute, but they were you know, some of them are assholes. Sorry, some kids are assholes. Anyway, this like, need in me, this animalistic need to take care of my child in those instances is very real, right? Like, it's like, I will protect my kid. So similarly, this need to feel close is very real. Now, say you're flying. One of the examples they use was like, your partner, or child is flying overseas or wherever. And you see on the news that a similar flight, like went down or is having, you know, serious issues. Your protests behavior is to be frantically calling every airline trying to figure out every whatever, trying to figure out where they are that feeling in your stomach of just like absolute devastation, right, which I thought was interesting. Anyway, my protest behavior was very clear. When I was a teenager, I you know, I wanted connection so bad, but I didn't know how to ask for it. So I would I think I would push or maybe this wouldn't be defined as protest behavior, but I think it would, it would, I would throw like these monster kind of tantrums, and demand the attention instead of asking for because I just I wanted to I see now I wanted to be close to my parents, but I had no idea how to ask or, and again, maybe this isn't protest behavior, it's just the way that I was insecurely attaching to them, but or attaching to them because I was insecure. And I really think I mean, I had attempted suicide a couple times when I was a teenager. And I really, you know, obviously, there was other stuff going on in my life. But at the time, I got really upset when this kid at school said, you know, she did it for attention, which I did not do it for attention. But looking back. I wonder, did I did I? You know, I did want to point?

I don't think you did it for attention. Because I mean, I think the idea that this whole idea that women do ideal is to

die. I'm glad I didn't trigger warning. Yeah, at the beginning of this episode, but

I this idea that women do things for attention. I mean, like, do people he thinks he's a fucking investment banker Now obviously, who like has I mean, we need some for 20 something year old loser. Yeah, like, we hate him for multiple reasons. But before I think this idea, though, that people this is something I find interesting in general, both like with how we treat women have this idea of like, they're seeking attention, like, when people do things that we know full well come from pain, that like, yes, because the attention of a suicide attempt is so positive and wonderful, you know, like,

the outcome could be death, you know, like, yeah,

this social thing that got you was shot really like you were like, duck swimming through, you know, all this social,

popular as fuck, like, I didn't need the attention. Yeah, I wouldn't. But for my pirate you

wanted to be seen though, I think like, from what you said, yes. Yeah. Like, from what you said about your parents. Like, I feel like it truly was like a cry for help that you're like your son, I am drowning in your own or not seeing it, and you're

no and and, and it only worked for a time. Right. And so yeah, I think how I became secure was I, I did a lot of really unhealthy things for for me, and I went through a lot of horrible relationships or devastating, you know, kind of soul crushing bottom, I would say I hit rock bottom a lot. I hit rock bottom a lot. And I wasn't scared of it. So much so that it became too familiar for me, right? I was talking to a client today and she's like, I'm just somebody who has to hit rock bottom. And I was like, Well, what if you weren't? What if you weren't somebody that had to? Yeah, bottom.

And that's a bit like what my therapist was saying to me like, What if you was she was challenging me with that? Or what if you weren't afraid of connection? You know, it's like exactly it's like a totally you have to literally entertain that I dia to even remotely even start possibility. Yes, you know,

yes, and so on. I got really sick of being at the bottom all the time and feeling so drained and exhausted and like shit about myself. And I honestly just started to really ask myself very uncomfortable questions. I think a pivotal time for me, which I've obviously talked about was facing my loneliness in a very dramatic way because I can't. Yeah, girl being me.

She's acting innocent. Like she's just telling a story. It's

me I am. I'm just telling a story. Yeah, it's not that well, as my friend who was just here was like, You planted the seed in my whole car ride home for three and a half hours. I'm just thinking about that thing. You said. I was like, Anna says that I do that. Yeah. Yeah. She's like, you know what you're doing? Yeah. But I was so afraid of being alone, because I had never admitted to myself that that's how I felt in my family. You know, I because I had Oh, yeah.

Sorry, for that gut punch.

Oh. Just gonna mute my mic and go have no, yeah,

yeah, you're gonna for real? As I said, we, but I just don't on the floor. But it's okay. If you do. I, you know, I really had never even entertained the thought that I felt alone in my home. And yeah, when I did, even though, to be honest, this is the first time I've said those words like out loud, you know, in that way, but I have been working with that idea, for many years now. And treating myself really, I don't, you know, like to use buzzwords and things and, you know, re parenting and inner child work. Like, I believe in all of them very much. But I would, I would say that so much of it was really having conversations with myself and, you know, treating myself in a, in a very gentle way as I navigated all this shit of okay, yeah, your parents are, you know, pretty great on paper. And I think a lot of people would be very happy to be part of your family. However, there was a lot of shit that went down. And just because you didn't grow up in poverty, or have, you know, certain types of abuse, doesn't mean that you your experience isn't valid, it is valid, and I'm not, you know, I'm not talking about little trauma, either. We had, I had big drama, not that it matters at this point. To anybody. It's like your whatever you feel, is, is what you feel, you know, I mean, so my child is going to grow up, Please, God, whoever. I hope his childhood has little to no drama, big drama. But does that mean that his experience will not be valid if if and when he says, I felt like this about this, or I felt like that about that? Something really fascinating that I found out this weekend from my aunt is that when she which made me have a lot of compassion for my mom, in that moment, I was like, okay, okay. She said that, when ever they would bring up something to my grandmother, about a feeling they had, that was not, you know, nice or favorable to her. She would be like, I guess I'm a terrible mom, bla bla bla, and make them you know, feel really bad about it. And there was just no opening for that. And I was like, Oh, yep, that comes from Yeah, that doesn't mean I don't have feelings, but it did come from somewhere and it is inherited. And it it you have to work your ass off. There is no easy way. And I know that you are such a hard worker. But I really do think that this is a part of your life, the love stuff and the you know, emotion. You love emotions. But do you remember the first time I told you I loved you?

Yeah, I do. And I remember exactly. And often when I want to express like, things like I that's when I feel like a robot. You know, like, that's when you are like a robot true. And I know it and it's funny. I see my own fucking mother do it. And I'm like, what is that? And I think for me, like, what's been interesting about all this is realizing I like I think like the breakthrough for me about this was like, It's not about love, intimacy, or attachment, which like, that was all where I had been like trauma like all of that. I'm like, it's about connection. Yes. I was like, oh, like it's connection. That's Here's me it's not, which is like cuckoo crazy down because like when you were part of the gut punch about the loneliness thing is like, I also think you're an only child like I'm sure, even as a little kid, like you had thought about like loneliness, like, I'm sure it's something you thought you knew, you know? Like, when like abandonment shit comes out. I'm like, Oh yeah, I know that well, like my father died when I was young, you know, like, but But it's like one thing to sort of know like this is in the picture. It's another thing to really have it click into place?

Well, no. In in your body?

Yes and yeah,

yes because exactly what you're saying. And I think that was a this is what part of why I'm such a huge proponent and why I started, you know, making movement, my big part of my career or started my career that way was because that's what my, that's what the bridge was, for me. I was like it, it didn't work for me to think about it or talk about it a lot. It was fine. And, and it's helpful. And, you know, it's necessary, but I was really missing the body component. And that is where so much of my sadness is and was stored. And now I know exactly where it is, you know, there are things obviously, that will always surprise me. And I never want to stop growing. But when I started to get actually secure is when I slow down enough to listen to what my DMs are saying to me when

Christina are talking again, it's so mean. Because once again, like last night, she's like, this is why I always like, this is why I keep telling you to slow down. But you know,

do you literally have to you or someone that like, you know, think about how much information you take in on a regular basis. Right? Like, even if you're relaxing. You're taking information. 24/7

Yeah, I know. I send you screenshots. I know, you can see every tab I have opened on there. I know. I know. I set myself out. But yeah, it's true. I mean, and then something. I think it's been really wild to be I mean, listen, 40s are a fucking trip, man. You, you spend all this time trying to get somewhere. And then you think you've sort of arrived somewhere. And then it's like, surprise, motherfucker, you were wrong about most of it, you know? And you're like, oh, in there like oh, and double Surprise motherfucker. It's about all the shit from the beginning. That like you think you know, and yet you don't know any of it really, at all, you know? And that's a cool thing. That's been a cool thing. But so something I thought about last night as well. Was my like, I've never I've never, this isn't a brag. I've never been suicidal, you know? And I find that surprising about myself. To be honest. You know, I've had lots of trauma. I've had huge periods of depression, like, it surprises me, you know. And I said to my therapist, I said, my will to survive is so strong. And she's like, it is like it comes up time and time again. She's like, because we were talking about my transition from television into Tarot. She's like, Anna, that whole period was insane. It was insane. She's like you worked a full for real mega job all day. And then you went and worked another real job at night. And you did that for like two years. And then you left like a 20 ish year career to start a new one. And she's like you your last day of IFC, you went to go work a gag, you know, as a tarot reader that night. She's like, there was no space in that transition. And I was like, my survival shed triggered so strong. I said, I can remember how it felt like it fell. She's like, I know there was no space for it. I would be like to talk about this or do you have feelings? I knew there was you could you couldn't go there, you know? And I was like, how do i She's like, the thing you have to understand about your survival stuff is it's always like when you feel things, it's going to fire to try to seek a solution. And it's on you to build up your ability to be patient to know what is just you keeping yourself in action. And what is actually a solution.

I don't I remember sitting in alone, and having no friends where I was in Mexico and having no connection. Anybody there except for my boss. and being like you are. I didn't go there to party. Like, that's not what I was there for a lot of people did. And that's totally up to them. I didn't want to be distracted. I was like, I came here to fucking work. You know, I like I was. So that was when I actually was the first time I was disciplined in my entire fucking life in a real way was when I went there. And I was like, I wasn't, I wasn't swayed by anything. I didn't feel like I needed to be anywhere else. I was like, you will sit here and I would sit in the studio sometimes for like 12 hours. And obviously, this is not available to a lot of people. However, I moved there, I had zero, I had like, $0, I think I had like, a maybe I had a couple $1,000. But I was severely in debt. And like, I was just like, fuck it, I'll figure it out. And I did, thank God. But anyway, I wasn't, you know, writing, like, a privilege wave. They're not that that negates any of the work either for anybody. But my point is that I took the opportunity, I needed to have it. And I was so scared. And I was really sad a lot of the time. But I was like you are if you don't break these cycles, like you're never going to get out alive, like you are going to be constantly served the same shit over and over again. And it was the first time I actually took responsibility for like, yeah, I wasn't calling it attachment styles. But I realized how I played such a role in these relationships that I was having or these feelings or these. You know, I was, I was messy. I was messy. I was a way overly emotional. I was super anxious. I would like something they talked about in the book, like, you know, calling or or not, this is something that got me not making plans with your friends just in case like the person decides to make plans with you. Like, that's how I was I was like, Okay, well, there's a possibility that what like that this person could choose me and give me something that I need, even though that was never going to happen, and I would abandon myself all the time. Yeah. So it's really uncomfortable. It was really uncomfortable. I'm really hard. But the old I like I said, I can't believe I got secure but I also I'm like, Yes, I do feel that way. You know, I trust my partner. Like I know that he's there to support me. I know I'm there to support him even when, like things drive me crazy. We got into like a little some tiff last night and I was like, and I wasn't on my best behavior.

Your like full disclosure, I wasn't on my best behavior.

He said something very gently about, like, how he felt and I was like,

okay, okay, okay, I hear you,

I honor you. And then I walked downstairs to get something from the freezer, and then promptly found him in the playroom and was like, You know what? And he was like, What the fuck? We're just having, like, he's like, I'm literally just, we just had a nice conversation and then like, you come in like a bat out of hell. And he, he was like, obviously, something was triggered and I was like, stop saying that to me. Okay, I'm not sure. When you're triggered. There's nothing more aggravating than someone saying No, exactly. And he wasn't being condescending, but he you know, I was like, there's no winning. But if he says that one more time, I'm literally gonna frickin blow a gasket. Like trigger I'm like, I'm gonna fucking triggered I'm Erin guru. And then and then I woke up this morning and I was like moving and I will listen what I heard listen to I heard it was so annoying when I was doing yoga and being quiet with my body heard apologize.

I was for you like

you but trail the trail. I was like, Well, fuck off.

But you know what, okay, I'm gonna and like I was triggered obviously. I don't know what why or what that's about. I haven't really thought enough about it yet. But my point is that if that had happened in a past relationship, I realize how safe I feel sometimes too safe probably for his for his own good, because I would make sure that I that maybe I would fight but I would always be the one to try to fix it. I would always be the one like who was like I'm sorry. Is everything okay? Are you okay? Are we okay? Like constant and I did that with my parents. My entire life. Like, Is everybody okay? Is everybody okay? Nobody being like, are you Yeah, are you and my husband even though I was a total fucking asshole last night like I hope you're listening even though you're probably not. i He walked up this morning. was like, kiss me on the board and was like You okay, even last night, he kissed me tonight I was like, by whatever, by bro by you later or maybe not. So I'll be asleep, pretending to be asleep. But anyway, yeah, this was messy to secure, but I'm happy to be here. I hope I stay for a while.

So I, I'll double check with my brother, but I think it'd be okay with me mentioning this because he knows, I have brought it up in the past. So I'm going to bring it up again, when everything came crashing down with my brother, and it became code rad to get him help. I, the beautiful thing about addiction is it does. It gives an opportunity to go, like addicts aren't created in isolation. And I believe that and I don't just believe that because it suits my family stuff. But I believe it just because I addict, you're using whatever to regulate it, you know, your nervous system. And so something has caused the need for that to happen. So I don't think addicts are bad people or whatever, it's a disease and I think it is created. You know, like in family structures, I think it benefits everybody to look at what's up versus just focusing on the person who's struggling. So when all of that was going on, it made me realize that truly, ever since my dad had died, I had felt this governing. Like, he was unspoken, I did not realize that I had felt this desire to like, heal fix my family. And obviously, I cannot do that, you know, like, I mean, but I try not to. Yeah, that was my Northstar that that was such a huge, and I only really realized that like, a year and a half ago, like, or I guess this fall, it'll be two years, you know? So that what

are you doing for the anniversary?

Not drugs. So, I think for me, in a way, it's like that secure four years ago was probably false in a way, you know, like, or maybe in that moment, but it was almost like I maybe got to enjoy that like, brief reprieve. Before I was gonna have to, like, look at some more shit, you know,

and it's just kind which is kind and what we need. We can't always be diving into the like, deep, dark, unknown, or, yeah, epiphanies. And that's, I think people stop their therapy a lot or whatever. They choose work. Because they, we there will be days that you show up to do whatever work you do. And you're like, I don't know, you know? Yeah. Same shit different day. Yeah. When I have to pay $200 for that. Yeah, but it's like, you got to keep going. You got to I mean, if, if you want something to break again, I obviously believe very much in like, good therapist. But there are other ways if you, you know, if that doesn't resonate with you, and but anything, you have to keep showing up anything and everything that you want to make a difference. You have to keep showing up.

Yeah. Because I think anywhere, you're not getting where you want to go. You know, I if I'm really honest about it. And I think about that period of time, even when I got to secure like, it's not like I was, it's not like my love life was all that different. You know what I mean? Like, the behavior was still there, the stuff was still there, you know, like, the block was still there. So anywhere, I feel like, in some ways, even though it's like, I've been a grump about this, it's like, it's, it's given me like this huge gift of I'm like, Oh, this thing that I'm like, so sick of dealing with and figuring out like, part of what has been frustrating for me is I've had no new information, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, I'm fucked up. And I don't know what to do. It's like, Yeah, I know. You're like, what? Yeah, what else? Yeah, like, yeah, like you should be dating. I know. I don't want to I don't know why, you know, it's like, I know, I

1:04:26

know. Yeah.

Like, why are you saying I don't know. It's, like, you know, and it's like, I do feel like, I've been given this huge gift of, of insight, you know, so I just anyone out there who you feel like there's stuff you just keep slamming your head into a wall, wake it, take breaks, take care of yourself, but like, keep going like you. You never know when that nugget of information can like, change things for you.

Amen, girl. And that is attachment, y'all.

Yeah, I go get fucked up on a judgement. I certainly did.

Yeah, go get fucked up on Attachment it was it was pretty pretty. It made me pretty high man.

It was like I am POM. I was like I had an emotional breakdown. This is gonna be great. I mean it's true though that's like what we're trying to do here you know we done is literally wild to talk about it so

just I wanted to do a special shout out before we leave to the church times

our first hater in print we thank you we don't know we don't understand for

we don't understand your review. It didn't make sense at all. Even though we both both speak English. So yeah, but church times in the UK Thank you for listening and thank you for hating us. That is one of my my personal goals is to be denounced by the church so Amen.

Yes, thank you for choosing to review us and be baffled by us and make fun of us for saying like, next time when you review you can just say we don't like women and save everyone a lot of time trying to understand review over

there. You don't have to use big words you don't understand how to put in sentences.

Till next time, everyone. Bye. That's all for today's episode.

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