Hello, and welcome to the Borealis experience. I'm

your host Aurora, and I'm very excited to be posting that

interview for you. It is among the we are not proud of our

behavior series, episode number three with Sean Dustin. And

oday we have a guest with us nd net. She has a Bachelor's in

sychology, and a master's in ducational psychology and as a

uge fan of evolutionary sychology. So enjoy this

onversation we had with her the ther day.

Hey everybody, this is Sean ustin and Aurora Eggert from

he Borealis experience. And I'm bviously from the nowhere to

o but up podcast. Today we ha e a guest with us. This is ou

third episode that we've be n doing this, if you want to kn

w a little bit more in ormation, and you don't know qu

te what we do here, go into th description and there will be

an explanation as to what th s is and why we're doing it. We

have a net, also known as ca e girl, Claire, or you can fi

d her at cave dweller club. An Zakho eco echo something I do

't know. Anyways, so I'm go ng to go ahead and share th

s. And I'm going to share th s to auroras timeline. While I'

doing that, go ahead and ta e over Aurora, and this is yo

r first time meeting and that so get acquainted.

Yay. Well, thank you so much for making the time and for being

here with us. I read that you got curious about our little

mission here because Shawn is so open minded. And by the way, he

received a huge Award as Best mental health podcast. So

applause to him. And you got curious about me because I'm

ready to take accountability for some behavior that Yeah, we as

women exhibit, and I feel the need to talk about it. And you

obviously liked it. And you have lots of stuff to share with us

here today. So I'm excited to get to know you and learn from

you. And yeah, gone and introduce yourself to our lovely

listeners here.

I'm excited to be here. Yeah, I was very encouraged by your

guys take on human behavior. A d there were just a couple of t

ings that really jumped out at m and made me think that maybe s

me of what I've learned about s ecifically evolutionary p

ychology and human behavior m ght be fun to kind of just k

ck around, you know, not like, a Sean says, This isn't gonna b

like a, you know, a course, a he calls it. But just some i

eas to kind of take the p essure off you guys a little b

t. Not not in a way that would e cuse your behavior, but maybe e

plain it in a way that I don't k ow is a little more forgiving. D

es that make sense?

Yes. Okay, yeah. That's so beautiful. Did we seem like we

were really hard on ourselves?

No, it's just some of the things. It's hard to explain.

Because some of the things, they make perfect sense and you're

being completely open. And it was encouraging to hear but I

think people in general are hard on themselves, because they

don't understand where where our psychology is kind of developed

in a way and that that's kind of what I wanted to try and talk

about. Okay, so cool.

In your in your background, did you as I was doing that, I'm

sorry, I was trying to share this to different groups. Did

you did you explain a little bit about your background already?

No. Um, so I have a master's degree in educational

psychology, which I got about 30 years ago. But about 30 years

ago, there was this other kind of pocket of psychology called

evolutionary psychology and I couldn't really study it because

it wasn't, you know, it didn't have a bunch of research behind

it, it was just kind of a couple of researchers that I've since

met, and kind of kicked around some ideas with. And so, you

know, 30 years later, I had an experience where I couldn't

explain my behavior. And it really kind of bothered me. And

when I went back, my jam is like, research. So when I have

an issue or problem, that's just kind of where I go, I start

looking at research. And that's just, it makes me feel better, I

guess. So I did that. And I kind of rediscovered this little

pocket of psychology and it started not justifying my

behavior, but it was kind of explaining it in a way that was

like, oh, okay, it doesn't mean it doesn't make me sound so

crazy, you know, like, almost like a rationalization, but not

quite. And so when I started kind of looking at the world,

from this perspective, this evolutionary perspective, other

things that didn't make sense to me started making sense. And I

was like, oh, maybe there's something to this, like, cuz I'm

pretty suspicious by nature. That's why, you know, I poke at

things and make sure that, you know, I believe them. So. And

this kind of explained a few things. So. So I have a master's

in psychology, but it's not evolutionary psychology. That's

my long answer.

Well, I'm, I'm fascinated to know, I mean, we had a short

conversation, when I was in the airport, going to, I think it

was on my way to Florida. And we talked a little bit about what

you were talking about. But I'm still, like you said I was,

there's so much going on, it's many distractions. I definitely

would like to hear more about it. And, you know, I'm always

interested in finding out why I do some of the some of the FDIC

things that I do, or have done in my life, and you know, what

it is, what it's attributed to, and, like, I have my own

suspicions and my own ideas. But I mean, I know that there's a

lot that, you know, evolution plays in how we do things, DNA

genetics, you know, even even into the kind of gene, what do

they call that they call that generational? No Gen. Is

epigenetics a generational trauma? Yeah. Okay. So, shoot,

go for it.

I think it's so big. I feel like I don't know where to start. I

guess I'll start with how I feel like, I know a little bit more

about cave dwellers, as I call them, then the average person,

how about that is that seemed like it might move us forward.

But not too fast. Like,

cave dwellers, meaning meaning like us as a species? Yeah,

yeah. So I think we were hunter gatherers at one point, right.

And then something happened. And we were all forced to go into,

into cave dwelling, right? Something like that.

The cave dwelling time happened at the same time as hunter

gatherer time. And the main difference between us as modern

people and people that lived that were hunter gatherers is

they were nomadic. They moved around, that's how they got

their food. They followed herds, they followed seasons, that's

how they stayed alive. They didn't stay in one place for

very long. So the the main, and there are hunter gatherer

societies still on the planet. Not everyone lives, like what I

call a modern person, but there are modern day hunter gatherers.

I just want to clarify that. So if we're talking about people

who are no longer nomadic, that's like a big chunk of the

world now. And that that shift has affected our psychologies, a

little more than I think modern people think about and that's

just something that I think

so. As we've as we've kind of evolved, right, and we've we've

gone into being more of a modern society. I think some of the

things that we don't experience anymore, are our dangers, right,

the kind of dangers that we used to experience all the time and

Like, you know, we're not, we don't have to worry about

walking around and getting eaten by a lion, or we don't have to

worry about, you know, going looking for food hunting and

another tribe attacking attacking us, right. And so all

of those things sort of, you know, kind of, were built into

who we were and how we, we perceived the things around us

and lived our lives. Now, we don't have that. I mean, there

there, there are some dangers. I mean, you know, obviously, you

know, don't go to the ghetto in the middle of the night, you

know, or, you know, I won't even say ghetto, let's just say to

the, to the bad parts of, you know, maybe a city or a town or,

you know, whatever it is, you want to call, we don't go there.

And then in the night, because it's dangerous. So unfamiliar.

That's what's scary about it. Yeah. Okay. So now, how does

that play into, like, you know, Aurora and my ourselves, we

were, you know, abusive people, we, you know, treated people in

a way that, you know, is probably not looked at looked at

very kindly, you know, if you were to, if you were to just,

you know, come out and say, Well, this is what I did. And we

actually we've done that we've, we've said that we've talked

about how we were, and that's not the norm. Now, what is he

talking about? It's not the norm, we're talking about, it's

not the norm, but actually acting that way, I don't think

is the norm as well, unless it happens way more than we think.

I think it does, um, what you guys talk about is kind of, I

don't want to say extreme versions of it, but I think at

some level, okay, so let me try it from this angle. Um, when we

were in tribes, we knew every person we lived with very, very

well. They were the only people let's call it 100 people, they

were the only people we ever knew, basically, living day to

day, maybe we would come across another tribe. And when most

people talk about tribal behavior, that first thing that

pops into their head is tribe versus tribe, right? Like a

tribal behavior is fighting for resources or something like

that. But in my head, what's more interesting to me is what

went on between tribe members. So that's kind of how I look at

interpersonal relationships. Now, I imagine what would it

have been like, back then when we only had 100 people to deal

with and to know. And so that's a little bit different than even

the general study of evolutionary psychology, it's

kind of a more of a big picture. And I think it's more

interesting to talk about the psychology part of evolutionary

psychology. Like thinking about how life would have been, I

mean, imagine only knowing 100 people your whole life. That

would be pretty cool if you were a cave dweller, because, like

you said, life, when you're a cave dweller is super scary.

You're part of the food chain, it gets dark, there's very

little time to like, just chill, right? You're just constantly

scared. It's like a state, you're in almost all the time,

except when you're with your tribe. So I think we have

remnants of this. This assumption, or this belief, as

modern people that the people immediately around us should be

on our team on our side, and in some ways, literally thinking

the way that we think. Because when we were trying, when we

were living in a tribe, we had to basically think with one

mind, we the only thing we did all day, every day was look for

food, and share it. That's all we did. It's hard to imagine.

But that's how I imagine our psychology, part of our

psychologies were developed during this time. And so when

you get an interpersonal relationship with someone, and

at some level, we're not aware of this, because it's so old and

ingrained in our minds. We expect the people immediately

around us to be on our page on our exact page and on our

wavelength and when they're not. I think there's this moment of

fear, like, Oh, crap, this person is not in my head. And

it's, it's a scary feeling. Mm hmm.

I have a question for you. Yes. So would you say that abusive

behavior stems from a wound that we have experienced in the past.

And it's our way to protect ourselves now. Like when we

aggress someone else, we protect ourselves, which doesn't really

make sense, because then the whole mess starts. But that's

just how our system was wired to react when something scares us.

Yes, mostly.

Short answer, yes. But what I'd like to talk, it's a fear

response. You're totally right, like, but it's just an instant,

like, Oh, this person doesn't know what I'm thinking, there's

something amiss. Like, can I trust this person? Now, it's

this, every living thing in my head is on a continuum between

trust and fear. So any point of any day, you're going about your

day, you're somewhere on this continuum. And when you get

bumped into fear, without your conscious knowing about it, then

you do things like lash out. It is, it's a fear thing. And as

cave dwellers, if we were scared of something, it was either

fight, flight or freeze. But as modern people, we have this

extra special thing that we can do, which is control. So we try

to control the thing that scares us. Hmm.

I agree with that. And I think the analogy is, and I've done

I've done this before, and I'll explain. So when I've been in,

let's say, let's say I've, I've pushed my significant other to

the point where they now want to leave the fear start setting in

Oh, my God, what am I gonna do? I don't gonna be able to survive

on my own, am I gonna be able to do this? Am I gonna be able to

do that? How am I ever going to find somebody else? Who am I

going to have sex with, you know, all these things start

coming into into play. And instead of doing the thing that

I know, would probably salvage the, the maybe salvage the

relationship, maybe, you know, show some remorse or remorse or

something, you know, other than trying to control the situation,

what ends up what ended up happening is, is that I do I do

the behaviors that will produce the exact thing that I don't

want to have happen even more. And so I'm scared, or it's in an

effort to control it, but the fear is what kicked it off. And

so instead of, you know, okay, well, let me try to bully them

into, you know, doing what I want them to do, or scare them

into staying, or, you know, saying things like, oh, you'll

never find anybody better than me, or you all these things,

these these tactics that come out, you know, to manipulate to,

you know, try to control it's all it's all an effort of trying

to control the situation and control what they do.

And people aren't part of the environment. Like, I think it's

hard for us to differentiate sometimes.

Different differentiate like other What do you mean, the

other people aren't part of the environment. So like, since

we're not in a, in a, in a village setting where everything

is open, and that behavior, like we're behind closed doors more

than we are out in the open? So is that what you mean?

Um, it's more like. It's, as modern people, we feel like we

have control over a lot of things. We can control light, we

can control temperature, I think we have this kind of almost a

belief that we can control everything around us. And when

there's something in the environment, we can't control,

then we kick into fear. And we're like, oh, we can't control

this. And it's like another person is different than a lamp.

But I think sometimes we have as modern people have this aura,

this kind of magical belief that we we could control this other

person and it doesn't fit with our current environment, like

our in our old environment, what we could trust in our

environment as like hunter gatherers was other people. Like

we because we were thinking with one mind, we were all doing the

same thing. All Every day and everything else outside the

tribe was the thing that was scary and other people made us

feel safe. Other people were our protection, our predictability

our. And so now we're in a modern world and at some level,

we're still thinking that these people are especially the people

in our immediate environment are our significant others to be on

our page. And then when they're not. What do you think?

I think I totally understand a net angle. But I know from my

story from myself that it was not that the people were not on

my page, it was that I was scared of an outcome that would

hurt me and I wanted to anticipate, and sometimes in

picking a fight, and you know, the other person a little bit,

you know, how they're gonna react, instead of living in

harmony is strange. For me, it's not familiar, because my life

was not always harmonious. So I am more an expectant of

something that is gonna disturb, so I should disturb. And then

this is familiar, even though it's uncomfortable. But I don't

I have a hard time to understand that not being on the same page,

because I see the enemy and the other. Because I feel they have

control over my well being. Mm hmm.

Yeah. I see what you're saying. And see this. This is. This is

hard for me to talk about. But um, we were always cave

dwellers. There was a time when we were tree dwellers to like.

And so let me say it this way, there was a time when we

couldn't talk to each other. And we were dependent on things like

hierarchies. To get through our day, when we couldn't talk to

each other, and we had to do something together, there was a

boss, you know, the head honcho, and then everyone else falls

into a hierarchy. So everyone has a role, a controlling role

or a following role. And it's all organized, and it worked.

And till we could talk to each other, and then that kind of

mess things up a little bit. So in my head, there was a time

when we couldn't talk to each other. And we were depending on

the hierarchies, and I call this the win lose. Era, where someone

was winning, and someone was losing. There was someone in

control, and there were people that were following. That's kind

of what I'm hearing from you like in your growing up when you

were a kid? There was there was a winner and a loser. Yes,

powerlessness. You felt powerless. And you you were

either going to be powerful, or power lead. Exactly. That is.

It's more cut and dry. And as we evolved and got other tools and

can talk to each other, we moved into a time when we were more

Win, win, not win lose. Like if you're in a group and everyone

benefits if everyone cooperates. That's a different, like tool

that we have in our psyches. So you're talking about the psyche

that we had, even before we have recovered dwellers, it's the

time when we couldn't talk and everything was win lose, as

opposed to win win. So I think that's why like humans are so

confusing and get confused is we have so many sets of tools that

we can use to communicate with each other. And we're not aware

that we have these separate like modes. And when you get kicked

into fear, you're like, win lose. That's your mode. I'm

either winning or losing. Yeah, that make any sense? Oh,

totally.

there's a there's a good question here Roman Jones chimes

in with is that maybe because everyone isn't working towards a

common goal of what's best for the group, but instead everyone

is working towards individual goals. Totally. Great question.

Roman. Thank you. Excellent. Now and also to it wasn't there like

the human brain is only capable of recognizing so many people in

it right? Like You're memorizing, memorizing like,

like you have a catalogue of people that are in your head.

And it only goes up to a certain amount of people. And then after

that you don't, you don't recognize them anymore.

It's harder to we start compartmentalizing. So let's say

you see an African American face, they all look the same,

because maybe you don't have a lot of experience with that kind

of face. So yes, and no, there's this number called Dunbar's

number, which is extraordinary. Yeah, okay, so you knew you

knew? Yeah, it's a it's technically 147.3, which is

stupid. But what's point three of a person, you know, because

they made a chart, you know, the baby, addicted to their chart.

But in real life, whatever. So it Dunbar's number is, he

himself is still alive. He is one of the few ideas in

evolutionary psychology that almost every researcher agrees

on. It's the number which systems start breaking down.

Like if you have more than 150 people, things get confusing.

And most people who study evolutionary psychology agree

that that is because we probably didn't go larger than 150 people

in a tribe. So you're right, there is a limit to what we can

kind of take in.

City feel that that since society has become so large, and

we have so many, so many folks in it, and that we are No, I

mean, we're in a tribal mentality, a lot of times it

things sort of shift there when certain things happen. But I

mean, as far as, I mean, I've lived in plenty of places where

I have no idea what my neighbors who my neighbor was, I lived in

an apartment complex and didn't know who was to the left to

right above or below me. And it seems like a like, it's been

normalized to not, not like know, your neighbors, when those

are the people that like, if, if the proverbial shit was to hit

the fan, the people in your neighborhoods are the ones that

are closest to you, and that you would need to count on to go to

help for if you needed it. Right. Right. And I think it's a

very unnatural way to live.

Yeah, it is. It is stressful. And I don't know we live more

isolated now than we used to, or we are wired to write. Totally,

yeah.

Now as it pertains to like behavioral so evolutionary

psychology is that have anything to do like Graham Hancock, do

you know that name? He was somebody that did talked about

the, the, the dry the the dryer? Yeah, the younger era. And you

know, when we have the great flood, and all the other stuff

that went along with that, I can't remember what it is. I

shouldn't open my mouth unless I knew exactly what I was talking

about. You never know. bits and pieces of Rogan information Joe

Rogan podcast and the people that he has on there, stuck in

my head. Researchers I know on Well, I love researchers,

because I'm not one. And like, I'm ADHD and like to sit there

and do that is like really difficult for me. I mean, even

just to sit here in my in my in my area and try to do things.

It's hard, because it's like, if I got a bunch of windows open,

it's like, oh, I gotta go over here. All the way to me, I'm

damn, what were you doing? Go back to what you were doing.

Yeah, I get sidetracked really easy. But I mean, as this

pertains to, you know, our abusive behaviors and the things

that were learned, because I think a lot of what I did, was

learned over a long period of time, you know, like, we're

talking 40 years of bad behavior that kind of has been ingrained

through you know, I would I think a lot of this is his

successes, you know, the win lose thing, right? You know, if

I kept doing a lot of these things, because I kept winning,

it kept working. And so if it was working, like manipulating

women and using women to, you know, as a, as a means to still

finding support, like financial support, you know, when I didn't

have a job Oh, let's go hook up. What's his shack up with a

chick? We usually the opposite is, you know, women find it a

lot easier to play that card, you know, for safety, you know,

in finding safety and a man. Right.

But you just said the same thing about a woman. I mean, I think

we all just go through life, sir to survive. Yeah.

Yeah, that's I mean, we mean what I just explained, but I did

it. And I, you know, women do that as well, I guess. I guess

we all do it to a certain extent,

people. I get annoying because I don't like categorizing things.

No, no, no, that's okay. I mean, it's just this is a conversation

in a in a collaboration of ideas. And, you know, all ideas

are good until they're not right.

Well, that's what I really am impressed with you guys. Because

I have this like theory that people walk around with a set of

beliefs, just to get them through life, because there is

too much information coming at us, our psychologies kind of

have to cook part mentalize, or rationalize to have things kind

of make sense to us. And some people are in a soap bubble. So

their beliefs are kind of kind of fragile. And if you get near

them, they get nervous. But you guys have had enough experiences

to where we you your belief system in my head is more like a

balloon. So if you have a balloon, and it's not totally

full, you can add air, you can squish it a little bit. And you

can decide if you want to have that in your balloon, or if you

don't want to have that in your balloon. So that's what another

reason I reached out I was like, they can handle like, a kind of

strange idea and decide if they like it or not, they're gonna

not gonna freak out just because I have a different perspective,

you know?

No, that's true. When it comes to that phase in your life,

where you realize that you have been the abusive person, when

you kind of come out of the victim mentality that are

everybody leaves me, nobody loves me. When you realize oh,

shit, like, actually, I did stuff to repel people to scare

people of what would you say? neck? How can the journey be

sustainable? How can we learn to not fall back into these

patterns? Because it is so incredibly easy, right? We don't

know if I can speak for Shawn too. But we both learned that it

works. We just realized, okay, it's maybe not awesome. But how

can we like neuroplasticity? Let's talk about

neuroplasticity? How can we really learn new pathways? Is it

in being in a relationship? Or can we also do it outside of a

relationship? Do you know what I mean? Like some, I tell you,

some of the things we can only learn as a team, or when we're

exposed to situations. And some things we can learn by

ourselves.

I totally get what you're saying. And it totally fits with

the continuum of trust and fear. If you can kind of learn to

identify when you're behaving in a fearful way. It's it becomes

easier to kind of Whoa, not stop yourself. But as you're doing it

or maybe after you do it. If you take responsibility for your for

being afraid. I was afraid just then. Let me try that again. And

if you can just kind of make it a habit of knowing where you are

on the continuum. Like, you feel yourself going win lose, be

like, okay, you want to move yourself toward trust. And I

think that takes being with other people like your question

about because you have to practice it. You can't just like

it's easy by when you're by yourself to be in trust, because

you have no one to worry about. Right? Yeah. Yeah. You got

nobody called? Yeah, you can't overreact. And that's, that's

the tricky part. Because if you're I think we're all kind of

primed as modern people to have a fear response because we're

not living the way our brains kind of are used to. And it

seems odd to think of the brain as still thinking that the way

it did 10,000 years ago before we started farming, but but when

I Look process human behavior with that assumption. So many

things make so much more sense.

I don't know, it's just, it's fascinating me

I have this strange this strange idea of like, because we have,

we essentially have two different brains in our body, we

have this one right here. And then we have the gut biome,

which is full of bacterias, and other things that make different

chemicals and, and, you know, cause different reactions and

our emotions and our things. I you know, I honestly think that

the, you know, when we talk about aliens, right, I think the

bacteria that are in our body are aliens, to be honest with

you, and they have they have control of like, We're an

avatar, right? Yeah, we're an avatar. And whatever's in our

biome, you know, and making these these different chemicals,

and, you know, the epinephrine, norepinephrine, all these

different things, that kind of control, you know, whether we're

hungry, whether we're angry, whether we're tired, whether

we're all these things, it feels like, sometimes, you know, we're

not even in control. We're just, you know, just meaning in an

inner, let's call this, you know, just being played by

something. And, I don't know, maybe I'm somewhat on, but I

just, that's just kind of how it feels to me.

Yeah, and I, I agree with you. I don't agree about the alien

stuff. But I think that comes from our very distant past,

like, our ancestral experiences. And, and, and I, and I don't

think that we're not in control at all. It's just, um, we're not

really in tune. Okay, so here's the thing. Just last week, I

read about this researcher who she described how the brain

can't see. But it's in charge of us. So imagine getting

information from your biome, or your chemicals are, sound. But

you can't see the actual environment, if you're trying to

control this body. And all you're getting is images or

information from inside the body. Like, it's this strange

picture that popped in my head, it's like, our brains are blind.

And depending on how much experience we have in life, like

if you go through your life, and you have a very peaceful

childhood, and then something bad happens, it's like, Whoa,

that came out of nowhere. And then if you have like, a

childhood, that's kind of Rocky, that's what you are used to your

brain is like, Okay, this is life. This is I in and you can

get through life with a little more up and down. Does that make

sense? Yeah. certain extent. But sure, but, like, what Aurora was

saying earlier, the familiarity of something, right. So the

person that's had the Rocky is my I had a rocky, you know,

upbringing, and, and a lot of chaos, a lot of, you know, stuff

going on yelling and you know, to where I'm like really sensing

like, if somebody starts yelling at me now, it's like,

immediately, that's what flips me out. And also, too, if things

are going too well, because I'm not used to smooth rides, right?

I will do something to purposely knock the knock the train off

the track and caused chaos, because that's where I'm

familiar. I'm like, back home. I mean, I understand I understand

this. Yeah. It's, and that's why people create patterns

sometimes, like, you know, if your parents smokes, you'll

smoke, most most likely, because that's what's familiar. And

that's what's predictable. And we kind of recreate when I say

things, things should be predictable. I just mean

familiar. I don't mean like, everything's in place, and

everything's perfect. But I don't know, like Aurora was

saying, like, she doesn't want to be the loser. She wants to be

the winner. But if she could become aware of when she's in

fear, and when she's in trust, maybe there's the wind when

there's the middle ground where you can like, okay, I was

scared. I'm going to try and calm down. And look at this from

another person's perspective. And don't kind of close up and

think I'm all alone, I have to do something and panic. If you

trust the other person, even just a little bit, you can like

work your way toward. Okay, that worked. All right. Now let's try

it with another person, you know, and you kind of like, make

your in-group bigger and bigger. Yeah, sounds cheesy, but I don't

know. That's just, that's what like, I wanted to tell you guys

while I was listening to you talk to each other. Mm hmm. No,

that's beautiful. It makes total sense.

So Amanda Brooks chimes in with technology has evolved faster

than our brains can assimilate it fully. That's That's true.

totally true. And we're so reliant on technology now that

it's all coming too fast. In my opinion, our brains are like,

short circuiting a little bit.

Oh, yeah. And then when it comes to online dating, I feel there's

so many frustrated people out there. And I just think, man,

we're not meant to meet like that, like, the nonverbal cues,

you know, the scent. Like the subtle things that you see right

away, when you see a person life, you don't on a profile

picture, and people are not aware enough to put that into

their little bio. So it's, it's very tough, and we have to be

careful to learn how to use technology and to not forget

that we're still animals. We still like we want to be primal,

we want to be wild. And we're not robots yet.

Not yet, but we better watch out. transhumanism is coming. I

don't want it to. So on what you were saying that, you know, the

scent. I think that's a huge one. Because what what were

pheromones about? Right? Why do people have pheromones? And when

when you wear cologne or perfume, you mask that and you

can't smell that anymore. And so it's almost like when when the

craziest thing I ever saw was was when my daughter and my ex

when she was breastfeeding, when she would put her skin to skin

and that chemical reaction that happened that caused her to

start lactating? So I mean, if that if that's possible, right,

that our chemicals are so are the cause reactions in our body,

then there has to be something to the pheromone thing, because

then you like when you know, it's almost like that, like an

intuitive thing, right? And that's gone, that's gone.

You don't have that. But then again, if you add Cologne, that

masks Exactly. Right. So there's different ways to manip we don't

even know or manipulating each other. It's just it's so

interesting. But when you talk about online dating, I just want

to say quickly, you're also dealing with an individual

person, you don't know how many friends that person has. You

don't know how they treat other people, and then you like,

awkwardly go meet this person, and they could they could behave

any way they want. And there's no friend there to call them on

their shit, right? No, I think it's, I think for another

reason, besides not being able to really get a sense of a

person. I think it's more natural to like meet a friend of

a friend because there's some accountability there. And, um,

that's another thing we had when we were in tribes is

accountability. Because you knew 100 people and that's all you

knew there was no one that could pretend to be something they

weren't. And that's pretty cool. Like, but our brains kind of

like they're kind of stuck in that if this person's close to

me, I should be able to trust them. And that's not always

true.

And there's history there too, though. Right? There's there's

history of that person. So I mean, you can online dating was

was great for me, because I could do you just go and you

know, you pick out what you want your window shop and and you

know you can the what when I first started online dating, I

wasn't very honest about my intentions. And all I was

looking forward to get laid. And you know, I would not

necessarily represent myself like that. Like that's all I

wanted. And, you know, I think that there's a lot of guys out

there that Because guess what, there's that fear. If I tell you

what I want, then you may not, then you may, that may not be

what you want, and then you'll just leave. Right? And in that

thing, which is also part of a tribe, so and so I'll lie to you

and tell you what I think you want to get me what I want, and

then just bounce later on. Yeah.

Yeah, but technology is a tool. And tools are shortcuts. So that

was a very efficient use of a tool for you.

So Roman Jones chimed in again, she said is that maybe because

we spend most of our time in our subconscious mind? I don't know

what that is in that sentence. I think we've, yeah, we I think we

went we've moved past that. And I missed Mr. Q to shoot it up

there at the right time. Sometimes that happens, guys. So

I apologize if I didn't I don't get to your question as as

quickly as like, right when you're saying so if you want to

chime back in and let me know, what is that referring to? And

then we can answer that question, Jackie, with a bunch

of numbers, almost like my driver's license number. Says,

is the young teen generation in trouble because of lack of human

contact? Hmm. I think a little bit.

I mean, I know that the they call it Gen Z. They have already

been labeled, stressed and depressed. I don't know if you

guys have heard that. Okay, that's about it. Sorry. That's a

harsh label to live, like, harsh. And that's my kids. So I

have I have a soft spot for first labels. I don't really, I

don't really like labels. But anyway. I think Yes, that's

true. Because they don't like I'm an XOR. So I grew. I had

like a childhood that was not, not online. And then there's

this. There's this sub generation called the X

xennials, which are between x and millennial. And they had

analog childhoods, but online, young adulthood. And then the

millennials, were pretty much online the whole time, right?

And if anything, that is the label I will accept, because

that's like, that's an experience you're having as a

group of people. It's almost like,

what's the word I want?

I can't come up with it. Anyway, I don't like labeling people.

But I don't mind labeling people as far as their generation,

because that is what affects how you process. Does that make

sense? Yeah, but I do have hope for the younger generation,

because they seem to be less inclined to be like they're more

inclusive. You know, they don't they don't see they don't see

color. They don't see race, they don't see any of the type of

things that our generation grew up with the boomers and their

views towards, you know, let's say blacks or, you know, other

races and stuff like that, or just being segregated or, or us

versus them. They're way more inclusive. Work hard when when

they are. Yeah. No, go ahead, and I cut you off. So

it's awesome. But it's also difficult because they grew up

in an environment where they feel a certain way, but the

society is not reflecting what, like how they feel. The society

reflecting exactly the opposite. Yeah. So it's hard, I imagine to

express yourself and to feel okay with with what you feel is

right and wrong. Probably totally stressed out and

depressed. I can see that.

Yeah, I think they're, they're not liking that hierarchy, that

still part of society. And we do that out of desperation. Because

there's so many of us, how else are we going to, you know,

categorize ourselves are coordinated with each other,

unless we do have these pockets of hierarchy. We have a

president of a company we have available, but it's really just

hearkened back to our time. When we couldn't talk to each other,

it's just out of desperation that we are dependent on these

hierarchies and categorization. And I think the younger

generations are kind of like, Okay, this is a bunch of crap.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's definitely a revelation. But

it's tough, too

tough to get out of that hierarchy. Because it's all that

we're like, What? How else? Would we do it just be a big

blob? I mean, it's too scary to trust everyone you need, right?

You need to like decide.

Oh, complicated? Yeah.

This is where my conspiracy mind starts kicking in. Right? And so

you have you have this generation that's not not really

susceptible to the, to the divide and conquer sort of

mentality that we see coming from mainstream media we see

coming from the government we see coming from, and these are

all tools of control. Right? If we could divide you and have you

fighting amongst each other, then you're not paying attention

to in talking about, you know, what we're doing to you,

basically, right, is the big picture. Yeah. And so now, you

know, the one thing is that, you know, with schools and all the

different things that they've tried, they've done, like, I

can't remember what the name of the, the type of school that

they're in right now, or the curriculum that they're

studying. But there's no, there's no critical thinking

that's being taught in the younger generation. And then as

they separate, they started taking everybody and putting

them away, at home and doing the online education and causing

more of that stress. And what did you call them stress and

depression, within within those generations. So now, where they

could have been, okay. They're, they're, they're, they're in

line to take over in a way that wouldn't keep these particular

folks in power anymore, if they were allowed to flourish, like,

like they were going to be doing. So now something has been

implemented to, you know, a, let's take away their critical

thinking and be let's stress them and depress them, and keep

them from from, you know, expressing themselves in a way

that that could possibly, you know, take over in a positive

way for humanity.

Right, if the divide and conquer is pretty scary stuff. But I

will say that my kids are learning critical thinking, I

think there are pockets of critical thinking still out

there. And I Roman says exactly. So I still have hope, though.

Because in my head, there are groups of people that want to

manipulate us, but in my head, they're my parent, my conspiracy

mind is mostly focused on businesses, because they want to

make money in my government. Their purpose isn't to make

money. It's to, like you said control people, but I just don't

have that kind of ominous feeling. For government, I think

they mean, well, but it's hard to control. Such a large group

of people and the tools that we use to do it, they don't really

work. I mean, because there's too many people like our brains

are used to under 150 people. And so they do their best and

they kind of suck sometimes. But um, the automaton idea of like,

kids isolated there, they're not going to school and groups is

often that's kind of scary to me, because we need to, like

have checks and balances and kind of if you're isolated, and

you only learn what your family knows, then how are you going to

get along with other people? And that kind of worries me a little

bit. Mm

hmm. Yeah, there's no socialization skills. Like you

even have to socialize your animals. Like you have a dog.

You take them to the dog park, so you socialize them and get

them used to

their animals, but maybe not their children just because it's

not. I don't think they're being mean. I think it's that win lose

thing. It's like why take the risk, and we have to take risks

if we're going to get along, huh?

Yeah, I think it's watching kids too. velop like I have an almost

four year old and like, just seeing how her how she interacts

with the world as she's learning different things and learning

how to try to manipulate us. Right? in doing that whole?

Well, let me see how far I can go with this. And, you know,

it's like, that's ingrained. It's like, it's, it's like the

same thing that like how ducks node to fly south for the

winter, right? Like, how do you know that? It's just that that

DNA thing, that genetic thing that that's in your DNA, that's

a part of a part of the fabric of your life? Now, you just know

it. skill. Yeah, it's awesome. You don't have kids yet, do you?

know, I don't have kids. But I was a kid once. And it's, it's

fascinating how, yeah, when you imagine the the fetus, the baby

in the belly has nothing to worry about, they have the food,

they have the shelter, you know, they just swim around, and then

all of a sudden, you're being thrown into this world. And

you're totally dependent. And you can't speak and you have to

like, with your body, like, get the attention. And then of

course, your brain learns that and know that, oh, when I do a

certain thing, I get the attention. And then when you

learn to speak, you will use your words to get what you need.

And yeah, it's, it's, I can't imagine to having a small one

and to, to see how they manipulate you and to see how

you, you want to give them what they need. But at the same time

you you're like, Oh, they get so much control over my, my sleep

and my well being. It's, it's incredible. And that what you

say about the new generation, I wanted to add that we see

depression and aggression always as a very negative thing. And it

is feelings and phases in our lives that are very difficult to

go through. But it's also the phase where we learn most about

ourselves and the people around us. And like I just saw, if that

generation radio is going through anxiety and depression,

they will be able to one day, maybe not right now, but to wake

us up and show us okay, this is really sick, we have to do

things differently. And you know, I'm trying to see the good

thing and the bad there. I agree with you totally. Because

depression gives you Sorry, I just want to finish no, yes,

depression can give you so much depth and inside that you would

otherwise if you just float around, like averagely happily

never achieved. So I want to Yeah, I just wanted to say,

well, that's exactly what I was gonna say. And so you said it

way better than me. But you learn things when you're

depressed. Yeah. And and I think that when people are worried

that they feel depressed, sometimes you're supposed to be

because you're figuring something out. Exactly. And if

this generation is there slammed with all the information, you

know, if you were an offline kid, you got the information

that was spoon fed to you, as a kid online, you get slammed with

everything. And maybe they're just processing it all. And

they're gonna, like, come out as adults and have a lot more

figured out than we do. Oh, yeah, I want to say at the same

time, that doesn't mean we need to give up. No, no. But tired of

people saying, oh, the next generation will fix it. It's

like, we can do something to

Yeah, no, they just show us how numbed up we are and how we have

to be sensitive again and come back to the heart. Come back to

community. They will teach us and we have to be actively

listening. We can't make and quit. No. Yeah.

And when we look back at the older generations, like like,

your mom, your parents, your grandparents mind because we're

kind of in the same, you know, Gen Gen X. I think I fall into

the one where I know what it was like before the internet and you

know, on it afterwards. And you know, I know what a rotary phone

is and you know all those things and Our parents, they lived in a

generation where expressing your feelings wasn't okay. Were you

know, talking about, you know, your your losses wasn't allowed,

you know, and it's a weakness, it's all yours Don't be

vulnerable don't do any of the things that we need. Because

Because all of the all of the magic is in the struggle, right?

Everything that we need to, you know, fail forward is is in that

struggle. And, you know, I think that people resonate more with

your losses than they do with your wins, you know, in each

other. Right. And that's, yeah, and I think that's what you

know, like applications like clubhouse are so in popular

right now is because people are getting have a way to connect

with each other that isn't Instagram, that isn't all about

the wins, that isn't all about, you know, hey, look at my

highlights. A beautiful life, you know, reality probably not

know, it's Yeah, you have a beautiful, you have a beautiful

couple hours out of a week. But the rest of that week is full

of, of, you know, self doubt. imposter syndrome. You know,

somebody is cheating on me, or, or I have an opportunity to

cheat on them or, you know, just all kinds of different things

that, that come through in a regular week, right? the gamut

of of, you know, difficulties and struggles and, you know,

hey, am I gonna be able to pay the bills this week? Or, you

know, I got anything, you know, it could be it's not just the

winds are way less than than the losses? Yeah, fantasy sometimes.

Roman growth happens during times of tribulation. When

you're happy you're not really growing. Without one the other

doesn't have any weight. It's about balance. Now that's that's

true to what you come from Roman. Speaking all these

truths? Are we friends, if not requests me?

Because Yeah.

So is there anything else that we want to touch on anybody else

out there that's watching. We got about seven viewers right

now, which is pretty good, man. Thank you for participating,

everybody out there. If you have any more questions or anything

you want to say, feel free to drop them in the chat. Oh, she

said, just randomly stumbled across the live show. Well,

thank you. I'm glad you you stumbled across. Yeah, sometimes

things happen for a reason. That's so awesome. Very, very

cool. Yeah. The universe always manages to put the right people

together, right.

Yeah, you just got to be Stay calm. Yes, that's the hard part.

The really hard part, because we think we can control everything.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, the most the craziest concept for me to get ever when

I was trying to get through my addiction and all the other

stuff that I was going through was surrender to win. And as a

team, sports person, that was such a weird concept, when we're

always your I was ingrained, like to win to win to win, you

don't give up, you know, the like, especially, you know, when

I when I would think about, you know, times when I would be so,

like, I didn't know what to do, and I would start thinking

about, oh, well, you know, maybe exiting would be the right move,

because then I wouldn't have to deal with all of this stuff that

I created for myself. But then, you know, I was like, Oh, no, if

you do that, you're going to lose, you know, you can't let

things beat you. You can't let think you got to win at all

costs. But when I got the concept of surrender to win,

which was mean not giving up, but it meant, stop fighting

everything. Stop trying to control everything. Just let

things happen as they will and do the right thing, do the next

right thing, keep doing the next right thing, and stop kind of

control everything in your life. And things started to become a

lot easier. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the self

awareness.

That's like the ebb and flow like if you're stuck in win

lose, that can get really tiring and if you go to win win, like

what say Again. But say that what oh surrender to win lender

to win. That's very Win win. That's like, reach out, find out

who you can relate to, and work with them. But that's risky if

if you have the option of controlling. Mm hmm. Yeah, I do

that in my relationship now. Great. Is there like,

on a hormonal level, when it comes to like cortisol or

dopamine? Like, is there a level that we might have gotten used

to during our childhood, like a stress level, but then it's also

our chemistry who adapted to that, that we are trying to

recreate? I think familiar. Yeah. Again, the familiar. And

but that can be changed, right? When you like with meditation,

with with new approaches with new connections? That can that's

not set in stone? That's my question.

I don't think so. I mean, I'm, I'm not a medical person. But as

long as the first step is becoming aware of when the fear

kicks in, because that cortisol, the adrenaline, all that is

automatic, it's possible that some people are a little more

jumpy, if that's a word. But just just kind of knowing that

you're that it's happening. Yeah, because when, you know,

back in the day, that was a survival skill. That was really

handy. And I think we we go there more often than we

realize. It's just kind of a you can't control your reactions,

but you can kind of own up. Yeah. Yeah, like, Okay, I'm

gonna calm down. Just give me a minute. And then try again, like

you said, the next best, the next best action that was said

something like that. Yeah, very good. Something I heard

somewhere. regurgitating, we just imitate, we're not that

different from any other living thing.

Yeah, and I'm not that smart either. So I mean, I take a lot

of stuff that I hear in different places it sound

really, really smart. And regurgitate them out. And you

know, I try them too. And a lot of the times the things that

work. I'll, I'll you know, I'll talk about right.

Yeah, well, you're building a philosophy that's, then you're

building your balloon. Yeah, we all need that. Right. Um,

philosophical. I never thought about that. You got to put that

on that somewhere. On your nowhere but up page. It's been

classified on Spotify as philosophical. Oh,

no, I didn't I didn't know. Oh, philosophy. That's right.

That's, that's the that's a category. I mean, on my host.

Yeah. On my hosting platform. Yes, Mark. I just wanted to hear

you say that, that's all.

You can hear that? I think you're smart. What do you need

Aurora? What do you need? No. What do I need?

I need I'm gonna read here, Robert page. nothing new under

the sun. We take what we come across and as a life we're born.

We're born philosophers. Yeah, we just gotta allow it. We just

gotta let it all out. Right? And not be scared. Yep.

Live in love and be scared. Live in trust. Trust. You can't tell

you can't love unless you trust. Yeah, trust is first. I know.

But try try trust. Yeah. That's that's a good. that's a that's a

good thing. So next time. We'll see when we come back around for

number four. Well, we'll see implementing trust in our life

and and see if we can't, what we come up with for the next one.

Yes. Oh, I have so much to two. Yeah, I think we can talk about

what we discussed here. And then what happened in the last couple

of weeks between episode two and three and yeah.

Oh, yeah. Lots. Lots happened between two and three. Yes. Yes,

I can't wait. And if and if any of you guys out there that are

viewing right now, or watching this and you like a net, you

know, you want to come on and you know, maybe you've

experienced some sort of abusive behavior in your life, maybe you

are an abuser or have been abused or you know, you're on

that spectrum of just being touched by it. feel more than

welcome to reach out to us like a net did, through the email,

know where to go but up now@gmail.com or any of the

other places like you can reach out to Aurora on her page, and

I'll let her say where she's Sorry, I didn't get a chance to

load up all of these things like I normally do on my show.

Getting a little bit sick. So I've I was kind of a, I was

laying down until about like, 20 minutes before this thing

started. I got up and you know, try to get ready real quick.

Full disclosure. So Alright, we got a couple more comments here.

Um, cave dweller. Cave dweller club calm is where you can find

a net. That's her website.

Can I interject one quick thing. Um, so my website has a bunch of

stories about cave girl, Claire. And that's the way I kind of

introduce, you know, hunter gatherer ideas and how you can

apply them to modern day. So it's kind of a tidal wave of

information. So just as an example, I'm going to recommend

that, Shawn, if you end up going to my website, look at my blog

and read just two of the 28 blog posts, I'm going to recommend

meet Claire. And two fan is human. And for Aurora, I'm going

to recommend meet Claire and the world according to Claire. I

will check it out. So he just kind of like a little

introductory thing. So I'm writing it down. So me, Claire,

and what was the second one neat, Claire. And the second one

for you is to fan is human

to fan? To follow to fan? Awesome. I'll take a look at it.

Ruby. was so fun. You're welcome. Thank you for making.

Let's we got one more question. And we'll cut out of here.

Jackie, Jackie says does anxiety have a more negative spin on

today's society versus it being a good trait when we were

running from Tigers?

Yes. But we can't just shut it off. But we if we're aware of it

helps.

All right. Well, there you go there, Jackie, hope that helped

you. And I really appreciate everybody commenting in in

participating that really makes these things a lot funner when

you have audience participation, and it really just adds to the

whole pizzazz and what we got going on here, right.

Yeah.

So Roy wants to go ahead and take us out. I think I've I

think I've hugged up most of the time here on on this livestream.

Thank you so much, john. Yeah, I think it was very insightful,

like very good to hear a professional, someone who's

like, very in depth, or very insightful about the human

psyche, to talk about abuse and to have like, a different angle

that abuse is very negative and very destructive. But it comes

from a place of fear and distrust. And when we, Shawn and

I, I'm going to put us together in a box here that will make us

aware that we can learn to be more like trustworthy, but also

to trust other people again, and we know maybe that we have a

second chance that we're not like stuck in the abusive box,

but can get out of there if we want to. And you make it very

clear that we have a choice. That in the past, we maybe felt

like we didn't have a choice. We were too scared and not

reflected enough. But now you gave us a bunch of tools that we

can work with and feel more empowered and more secure and

Less abusive, or on the same boat? Yeah, yeah. No, that was

wonderful. And if people want to reach out to us, you have

Shawn's email. I'm on Facebook, Aurora Eggert, or the Borealis

experience, podcast. And yeah, I'm very excited about our next

episode.

Yeah, I got to make sure not to take take so long in between.

I've been super busy this last this last month. So yeah, we'll

we'll try and get more on a schedule. And we'll, we'll

revisit and talk when we get off of this thing. And we'll figure

out a more of a schedule to be on for it. Like we were talking

we were we were wanting to do every two weeks. Okay, so yeah,

oh, well, well, we'll make that happen. We'll do this a little

bit more often. And Robert says yes to all who made the stream

happen. Well, you're welcome, Robert. Oh, thank you, Robert.

Thank you for being here. All right. Well, I think that's it.

Thanks, guys. You're welcome. Thank you. That's so nice.

I will everybody have a great weekend a pleasant day and be

nice to each other.

Thank you so much for this entire conversation here. If you

have any questions if you want to do on our show. please reach

out to Shawn. word to me. On Facebook, Shawn, Dustin. And we

be so happy to welcome you on to the show.