This series deals with themes of violence, loss of life, grief, trauma and mental health. The content may not be suitable for younger listeners.

Kia ora I'm Mitchell Alexander.

And I'm Alex Mason. Welcome to Season One of Unclassified, a series where we bring you firsthand tales from those who served during New Zealand's 20 year deployment to Afghanistan.

Today we're joined by Major David Foote to hear about his experience as a nurse in a warzone, trying to tend to the wounded in the heat of battle, and the role Combat Lifesaver training played in assisting wounded soldiers during a deadly firefight.

Major David Foote comes from a military family, his great grandfather was wounded at Gallipoli, both of his grandfathers served in the Second World War, and his father served in the territorial forces. At the age of 17, David signed up as a regular force cadet, then became an Army medic. He spent time out of the military working as a nurse before rejoining.

In 2012, David, in the rank of Captain, deployed as a nursing officer to Afghanistan for six months. During the Battle of Baghak, he helps treat around a dozen wounded New Zealand and Afghan nationals, and evacuate the bodies of two Kiwi soldiers who had been killed. In the thick of that battle, David was trying to save lives while his own life was in grave danger.

Thank you for joining us today, David.

Thanks.

Let's go back to that day in August 2012. When the Light Armoured Vehicle you're travelling in, the LAV, is approaching the village of Baghak? When did you realise that something was happening outside the vehicle? And at that point, what was going through your mind?

Yeah, so there was a bit of confusion around the time as we sort of entered that area of the theatre. We knew that an event was occurring, but we didn't know the extent or what was actually going on. I think the real "oh wow" moment for me, was when I knew or was made aware that we had the first New Zealand casualty. And that was the "Oh shit" moment for me. It all became real very quickly.

What was it like being inside the vehicle? Could you hear anything that was going on outside?

Not an awful lot, there was a American aircraft that flew over and certainly heard that loudly. And then of course, the light arms gunfire started. So that made it even more real. But when I was in the LAV, I couldn't actually see anything, I could hear a lot of radio traffic, which was sort of hard to pin down what was going on, but certainly couldn't see anything.

So at what point did you get out of the lab? And what were you doing at that stage?

Yeah, I've got a little bit of, I guess, memory, confusion or a bit of amnesia around those immediate moments. But I do remember after we knew that we'd taken that that first casualty, one of the soldiers in our LAV actually left the vehicle, I didn't see him leave, but he left the vehicle to go and assist that casualty. And then sometime later, which was probably only a few minutes, we, I made the decision to get there as well to try and help that casualty. We knew that he was still in danger, in harm's way, we knew that he was still being fired on.

So I understand that once you're out, you came across an injured soldier lying on the road completely exposed, is that who we're talking about?

That is who we're talking about. But I've got really sketchy memory around the details of when I actually came in contact with that soldier. Something almost amusing happened. I remember as I got out of the LAV, coming round the back of the LAV, and didn't have really good situational awareness as I sort of headed down into that area. And I remember ducking around one side of the LAV and going "Oh, no, I've really botched this, I don't know quite where I'm going to, where is this guy that I need to get to?" And then obviously, I managed to see him and head forward, but don't really clearly remember that piece. But the next really clear memory I've got was as we brought him into the back of a further forward LAV. I must have got in ahead of him, because I remember that he wound up across the knees or laps of the guys in the back of that LAV, there was about three of us. And so he wound up across us so that we could carry on and start treatment.

And tell us about that moment. How badly wounded was he? What were you doing?

He was really badly wounded. And I guess that was the first time that I'd come in contact with a real battle casualty and had a large or you know, felt that real responsibility to 'Hey, now's my time to perform'. And so yeah, I was certainly not overwhelmed in any way yet, but it was very real, but there was quite a bit of difficulty, you know? I'm sure you can, the listeners can imagine, five or six guys in the back of a LAV, you're still in a firefight, there's a lot of background noise going on, and trying to determine what his injuries were and what was the best that I could do for him and the back of the LAV. He was in a heck of a lot of pain as well. So trying to get on top of his his pain as early as we possibly could do.

What does it feel like when you're in that situation, when you're having to put your training into action in the middle of a war zone?

I think in the first instance, I was probably pretty well set on automatic, and just carried on doing what I needed to do. There was three soldiers opposite me in the back of the LAV. So they were actually able to assist me with pinning down where those wounds were and how extensive they were.

Did you realise at the time that other personnel involved in that rescue were being shot and wounded alongside you?

Oh, no I didn't, I knew that one of the sergeants, that that first sergeant that left the vehicle that we were in originally, I didn't know where he had got to, after we got this casualty into the back of the LAV. But I also know there was another service person as well that left the LAV at the same time as me to go and get the casualty. And there was a really interesting conversation that occurred at that time, because he sort of said to me, Hey, before we even left the left, do you need me to come and give you a hand? And I said, yeah, not knowing exactly what I was going into. And he actually did leave that LASV and, and came and assisted me. And there's a bit of a regret there for me because he was actually injured as he returned back to that original LAV after we've got the casualty in.

And when you were leaving the LAV, running out into that sort of situation where you don't have good situational awareness and a battle is going on, how do you steel yourself for a moment like that?

I don't remember at any point being afraid. I'm not naive about it, I knew exactly what was going on, or enough about what was going out there to know what I was going into, and what the danger would be. And I do remember sort of rounds splashing around me as we're sort of moving around around in that area. But I don't remember being afraid. I think I was in part on autopilot and just carrying on it doing what I felt like I needed to do.

But how does that make you feel knowing that you were in the vicinity of rounds and being quite close to being hit?

Yeah, I've thought about that a fair bit since and as I've reflected on that later in my life, I'm married with a couple of children. And on one level, it was what I felt I needed to do at the time. On another level, it was probably a pretty selfish move as a dad and a husband, because it could have turned out completely differently. And I've thought a lot about that, the 'what if it had turned out differently'. Probably I would have come under some pretty heavy criticism if I too had been injured, because I was the the health person out there at the time. And it was very early on in that firefight. And clearly the rest of the team and the other casualties needed me. So yeah, I've thought a fair bit about that. I don't think I overthought it at the time, though. I think I was made a decision and went.

Looking back now though, are you at peace with that decision?

Yes, I am. Because I came through it. Okay. But then, as I do think back on that decision and those other two people, so I mentioned that sergeant that left the LAV sort of ahead of me and the other service person behind me, they were both injured. So I was one of those three that actually came out unscathed.

After you got the heavily injured soldier into the LAV, I understand that you set up a casualty collection point so that you could treat wounded and ready them for evacuation. Can you describe what the collection point looked like? And was the terrain and everything that was going on?

Yeah, so we were in essentially, in a gully with really steep mountainous ranges on either side of us. The casualty clearing point that we set up was really just a piece of bare land. And it was by a stream. And it was just a collection point where we gathered the casualties. We thought we were far enough back out of the firefight to be safe out in the open, that changed along the way. And we realised that we were actually taking small arms fire at that casualty clearing point as well. And so we actually shifted it and moved behind a sort of a small building and across the stream to the otherside, nestled in against the sort of our left hand side ranges.

And how many people were involved in treating the wounded at that stage?

We had the KT One team, so that's the Kiwi Team One. And that was a team of I can't remember the exact number. I think we've probably had 10 or 12 people on the ground at that time. Minus the injured people, of course, yeah, to assist. So I had, first aiders, Defence First Aiders and combat lifesavers to help me.

And what sort of number of casualties are we talking about that you're trying to tend to while you're coming under fire yourselves?

Yeah, that tripped me up a little bit. Um, so I had initially just that first casualty, and I think that probably for about 10 or 15 minutes, I was focused in on that casualty. But then I fairly well we fairly quickly got loaded with with other casualties, and we received another three casualties within sort of about 10 or 15 minutes and they were all Kiwis at that stage. We also received a deceased Kiwi and then a little bit further down... we managed to stabilise those counties and evacuate them. In fact, it must have been five or six, but in the in through the period of the next couple of hours we received more casualties, including Afghan casualties.

Could you go into a little bit more detail in terms of the fire that you came under during that time? What was going on? And how did you respond?

Yeah, hey, I just knew that we immediately had to move and get the casualties and our team out of there. And so when I say get them out of that immediate fire, it wasn't far. We were only moving those casualities, probably 20 or 30 metres behind that building. It got tougher each time because I sort of was heading out. The combat lifesavers essentially stayed with the casualties and we sort of move backwards and forwards, getting them on stretchers, and back around behind that building. There was one moment that I was uncomfortable with, and that was when I went out to get the last casualty. And I can remember having a fleeting thought that this casualty, I already knew in my heart of hearts, that he wasn't gonna make it, he was really seriously injured. I was very confident that wasn't gonna make it. I still left and headed out to join the combat lifesaver to bring that casualty back into safety. And I think that decision at that time wasn't really as much about that casualty as it was about the combat lifesaver. Something interesting that occurred that I guess I hadn't really thought through a lot and I don't know whether any of us had, was the combat lifesavers, in many instances, most probably the best mates of these casualties. And so in that specific instance, that combat lifesaver, was working on working with one of his best mates. So in order to get him back into a safe place, we had to get the casualty back into a safe place too and then when I went back out there, I believe he was actually protecting that casualty using his own body and body armour, which was really yeah, a heartfelt moment for me to see that.

So the combat lifesavers, they're not part of the medical personnel like yourself, they're actually other soldiers with additional medical skills. Is that right?

Yeah, dead right. So we take... all of our soldiers with the vast majority of soldiers on deployment will have been through the defence first aid training. And we teach them other skills as combat lifesavers to prepare them to deliver a much higher level of first aid, like pain relief, much more in-depth training around how to stop severe bleeding, intravenous access so that we can get fluids going, and so on. So yeah, a much higher level. They're not every soldier is a combat lifesaver. In in with it, they also have their own job to do, as well. So that's a secondary role. But I was lucky at that time that KT One was tasked with this casualty clearing post, so I had access to all of the combat live savers or, you know, I think I had two or three combat lifesavers and the First Aiders and their equipment that they had with them as well. So yeah, was pretty lucky.

Did you at any point return fire?

No, I didn't know it didn't even cross my mind to return fire. I think I was focused on the casualties. Though I was there when others around me were returning fire, particularly in the back of that first LAV. I can remember some quite specific events, instances where the team in that LAV were engaging the insurgents.

So do nursing officers and medics carry weapons?

Yeah, we do. So we still carry weapons. If I was in immediate danger, then yeah, I would have needed to make that decision at that time or, or deal with that situation at that time. But, but I had the entire team there, providing that security for us.

For you personally, how does that experience compared to the initial experience earlier on when you went out of the LAV? I didn't really see it as any different. And it was only a short period of time, really on the grand scale of things after that initial contact. So yeah, I didn't really see it as a defining moment, just our next step of getting the casualties to safety. And I didn't do that all myself. I had a whole team helping me.

You've mentioned that if you had to return fire you would have, it sounds like you were in some pretty perilous situations. But that thought didn't enter your mind. It seems like you were just focused on helping others?

Yeah, I didn't contemplate it at the time returning for because I didn't feel that I needed to. The insurgents was some distance away from us. I'm not sure exactly how far, I couldn't see any of them. I didn't stop to look real hard. So yeah didn't really think too much about that.

Was there any point though, when you thought, particularly on that second moment, when you had to move that you couldn't go back out? And I guess, rescue one of those casualties?

No, I didn't hesitate and wouldn't have. I knew what I needed to do. And I think the team needed to see also that I was prepared to do that. And so that they were obviously prepared to help me achieve that.

After the battle, how did you feel when you were back at base?

It was a really long 48 hours after that time, so we we didn't really get back to our base until I guess it was four or 5pm. That evening, even though this was sort of around midday and into the sort of like that late morning, early afternoon. I was exhausted, hyped up, absolutely hyped up on on adrenaline. But we didn't really, it didn't stop there. So we went up at that forward base and then heading back to another base to do a hot wash and to carry on with all of the follow up action required, I guess after an incident like that and capture information.

Can you just explain what a hot wash entails?

it information.

Can you just

Yeah, so that was, while it's fresh, what's happened, gathering the information as best as we can for command around what had happened, when it happened, and how that sort of all panned out. So that yeah, reasonably sensible information picture can be created, as well as I guess, making it as safe for our team as we can, in terms of what happens next.

Did you feel like everyone else was experiencing a similar, I guess, inability to wind down that you were experiencing that adrenaline after the battle?

Yeah, I think we were all in a similar boat, they're in a lot of contemplating or trying to understand what had happened, why it had happened and what we do now. You know, you're sort of, on the one hand here, everybody at that point in time probably is hurting and hurting deeply. You know, that point we've sort of sent home or in the process of sending home two soldiers deceased in that action, and then a couple of Afghans as well, that were deceased, and then a bunch of injured soldiers as well, that were being removed from the team. So yeah, it was a time of confusion and hurt as we came to deal with that loss. But the danger doesn't go away in that we had to try and get the team to a point again, and they themselves, where there's still a job to be done, the less we are in our A-game, probably the more danger or, or less security that we've got. So yeah, it was trying to get to that point where over the next few days, we've got to get back out there and do the job.

And just two weeks later, three more New Zealanders were killed, with an explosion destroyed their vehicle. One of them was a medic, Lance Corporal Jacinda Baker. Tell us about when you receive that news.

I was absolutely gutted. So what the team tried to do was for each of the members of the wider team to get us back to the Air Force base at Bagram for a couple of days, not in response to what happened at Baghak, but as an ongoing thing for a couple of days of respite in a much larger base, where there was sort of other activities and social things that people could get engaged with and just diffuse a little bit for a while. And I had managed to talk to our medic officer and command team and to spending a week at the hospital in Bagram for my own professional and clinical experience and development. So managed to talk them into allowing me a week back there to work in theatre and resus and so on. And I can remember I was walking down the road in Bagram and an American soldier came up to me and said, Hey, you probably need to get back to the base where we were sort of staged at Bagram, where that small headquarters was because you've had an IED attack, there's been some Kiwis injured in an IED attack. Now he couldn't tell me any more than that, then and so you know, obviously got back to where I needed to be and found out that information, it was a bit sketchy at that stage in terms of how extensive it was, but, and we had a small group of Kiwis with us there at that time that had come back for that respite with me, oh, at the same time as I did. But then also there was a team working out of Bagram too, a small team, involved in logistics and so on. So yeah, I can remember just being absolutely gutted and really all of us wanting, pushing for information, you know, what is this? What has happened? How serious is this? Who has who's involved in and what do we do now about this?

What impact did that have on you and other members of the medical team losing a member of that team?

It was devastating. There's so many scenarios that you work through in your head even before you deploy and then when you deploy about, you know, how would I feel about this if this happened, or that happened? At no time that I contemplate what would it mean if we lost a member of the medical team and a medic, so it was yeah, something that was hadn't even contemplated it and it was devastating for us.

Can you tell us what Jacinda was like as a person and as a soldier

Jacinda was an amazing soldier and a fantastic medic, one of the best medics I've ever had the privilege of working with. Medics are amazing anyway, I think they're just fantastic people and they do an amazing job. There's something funny with Jacinda, a small story that I remember. Jacinda looked after me at a time as well. You know, being a nursing officer there's some very military things that are a bit foreign to me, like, you know, our body armour and putting that together because it comes disassembled and you've got to put it all together. And I can remember I was sitting out in front of a group of soldiers and fumbling with us looking like a pretty ordinary nursing officer, looking like I had no idea what I was doing. And Jacinda sort of tapped me on the shoulder and said, Hey, Sir, I think you better come with me. And she sort of took me away around the back and helped me put this thing together, which is just like a mystery puzzle for me. Probably still would be. Yeah, and that was just who Jacinda was. I think at times she was she was looking out for me too. Something else that happened there was a group of Kiwis that were in Bagram at the time that that occurred, went and set up a vigil at the place where our deceased soldiers were, that was a pretty moving time as well. You know, I did find that you know that really strong sense of Kiwis looking after Kiwis. So that was quite emotional.

After that second incident, I understand that you decided to write some letters to your loved ones back at home. Can you talk us through what compelled you to do that?

I just was left feeling like things were changing so fast. And you think a lot, you know, in those times of adversity about family, and I guess it came back a little bit to in that firefight, what would have happened if that had turned out differently? I could just as easily have been Jacinda or one of the others in what would that mean for my family? And yeah, there's so much unspoken sometimes. And so that was what that was about, for me. I don't think I was alone there. I've spoken to others that went through a similar process. And I just was sort of thinking, what would I really want my wife or my daughter or my son to know? And that's what it was about.

So the letters were to your wife and your children?

Yeah, yeah. And my parents, I wrote individual letters to all those people. And I don't I didn't know at that time, whether they would ever be read. And, and just sent them in the hope that they would never need to be read. And, you know, most likely they wouldn't be but just in case. To this day, Olivia, my daughter has read hers and she was happy releasing what I had said out when I did an article with a staff with Eugene Bingham and DPA earlier or I think that was last year or the year before, but my son hasn't read his. I left that entirely up to them whether they ever did or not.

And obviously, recognising that some of the letters haven't been read, what were some of the things that you did want to say those letters?

Yeah, I think those letters were about me expressing what I'm proud of, and value most about that family member, and what I see for them in the future, and what I would want for them in the future.

And how did you feel after you'd written them and you'd sealed those envelopes?

Probably a deep sense, almost of relief of, hey, that's a loose end that's tidied off now if it ever needs to be enacted, but then also a sense of have I overreacted here? Is that actually a damaging thing to do for people further down the track? How useful is it? But it was useful for me. Yeah, so I guess a relief and then a yeah, or am I overdramatizing the situation? And maybe I didn't need to do that? Or maybe I shouldn't have done that But yeah, but I'm at peace with it, is what it is aye.

Now many years before this deployment, you had served at our US military hospital during Operation Desert Storm in the Middle East. Are you able to go into a little bit of detail about that, and explain how did what you experience in Afghanistan, compare to that?

It was such a different experience. And it might have been my place in life as well and where I was at, you know, when we deployed to Desert Storm, I was really young, I think I was 21. And it was very early on in my career, and not to minimise that experience, and it might be just my understanding of the lack of understanding at that time of the much wider situation of what that conflict was about. But it was almost an adventure. Because we were heading offm it was a while since the NZDF had deployed anywhere. It was this massive situation that was kicking off with a very large build up. And we went, to be fair, we went and worked in a large hospital, I think it was about a 500 bed hospital with the US Navy, they were reservists and in fact, with a team of about 30 Kiwis, but going to work in a far more controlled environment on a much larger scale. You know, that was my first experience of deployment. And it sat so differently to the experience of Afghanistan, where we were a much smaller team, in a immediately less controlled environment or less safe, secure environment, then the Middle East, we were in Bahrain, nowhere near Kuwait, you know, well away from where the conflict was actually occurring.

I guess going back to Afghanistan, when you did come home, were you able to leave the trauma behind? Or did what happen there have quite a lasting impact on you?

It did have a lasting impact in I think still does to today. Something unusual, I'm not sure if other members of the team felt this but as we left Afghanistan, something that was on my mind or a feeling that I had was because the last time we'd seen our casualties and our deceased soldiers was over in Afghanistan, as we left Afghanistan to come back through Australia and come home, I had a deep sense almost as if we were leaving those people over there because they weren't coming on with us. So yeah, that was a bit weird. As I adjusted back to... I came back and I got posted to Waiouru and was running their medical treatment facility at Waiouru. And I went through a period ofm I never had PTSD, but in a think late in the first year of that posting, I went through a period of struggle, I actually sort of was diagnosed after some time with or a short time, actually with an adjustment disorder. And just that whole adjustment process from going from really quite a high intensity period of my life down to our Hey, now here's a hospital, well here's a small treatment facility, you need to run this. And some of the things that sort of frustrated me in that role, were perhaps exaggerated by my lesser ability to deal with and cope with mundane problems, or what I perceived to be mundane problems. And that was actually picked up by one of my friends and colleagues who was a doctor, and she sort of said to me one day 'Hey, Dave, what's going on? Man, you're you're lashing out at command, you're lashing out at people, you're, something's wrong, what what do we do here? Because this is not okay, you're potentially damaging your career and, and also, not in a happy space'. So the long and the short of that was I actually referred out to a clinical psychologist, or was referred to a clinical psychologist, and had a series of sessions. And that was the best thing that I ever did. He was fantastic, and helped me work through where I was at, and how to, I guess, put tools in place to head off on a on a better track.

And since that time, how do you feel you've coped since then?

I've done pretty well I think. That was a tough period for a couple of years, where I sort of did need to reset. I threw myself into postgrad study around that time, shortly after the Army sponsored me on to my Master's in Nursing, which I completed, so that gave me something to really get my teeth into. But I think that I still have low adjustment, and I'll always have low adjustment. In truth, I probably had low adjustment before Afghanistan. And that plays out in some interesting ways. For me, I'm somebody that I don't cope terribly well when I'm presented with loads of information all at once, I'm a slow thinker it takes me time to digest information. I'm not that person that can come up with quick ready answers for for things. Interesting on the on the weapons range, I have a flinch when small firearms goes off, it does startle me. So if I'm on the on the range, doing a weapons qualification, I kind of need to be the first person to get shots down the range. Otherwise, I'd likely to, I kind of hear what's going on around me and get startled. And wind up putting rounds or bullets all over the place, as in on the target, of course, but yeah.

How much has your experience in Afghanistan informed that postgraduate nursing studies that you mentioned? Have you drawn on your experiences over there in the field, in the thick of it? And have you shared those experiences with other people through that learning environment?

I have. I made a commitment coming out of this experience to try and be as best as I could an open book and to talk about this without being that person that doesn't shut up about it and just talks about it all the time. So when I came back, and when I was in Waiouru, I managed to I put together a an exemplar for a nursing journal that was about my experience and what it was like to be a nurse there and the Army agreed to allow me to have that published. So that went out in that journal. And that was almost like self therapy, I think, you know, it's just it's telling a story and getting out there. And it's only my truth. There might be others in the team that disagree with that truth or other people in organisation, but that's just, you know, was just about my truth. And then I found a really rewarding experience having the opportunity to speak to Eugene Bingham and have that Stuff article written, that was really good for me. Yeah.

Quite cathartic?

Yeah, absolutely. And, and all of these things help you, I guess, make sense and make peace with, with what's occurred. Something else, though, that has changed a little bit along the way is, in being an open book, I found that I was often presenting to, particularly health professionals, my story about what happened and what we did for casualties and how aspects of that worked. And that got tougher over time. I used to go down to the Defence Health School and present to the courses sort of before they graduated about just this is a scenario, this is what we did. What do you think? And how did that feel? And what was it like at the sharp end, actually having to do what it is that we are all training to do? But it did get tougher, not saying that you sort of relive it every time I'm telling that story. But yeah, it got tougher. And in the end, I sort of stopped doing that and said to the school, Hey, that that Chief Instructor, of the school, this is the presentation, I'm more than happy for others to deliver this, but I probably need to stop doing this. There was one particular incident where it sort of, not came to the head for me, but I sort of realised, hey, I'm not comfortable with this. And I had presented to a group of medics and I'd got a couple of clinical details wrong. I was thinking about one casualty and gave you know some of my decision making that was actually about another casualty. And I was actually left feeling quite foolish because one of the audience actually said to me "Wow, that's a massive call that you made on that casualty" because of the technical aspect, but the technical aspect rather was wrong. So it left me feeling quite professionally embarrassed. Yeah. And then there is the hey, it's enough of you know, I've told that story enough.

Just thinking about that almost triggering element of recounting your experience and that learning environment, and you mentioned being on the firing range and how that can sometimes affect you. How often do you think about what happened in Afghanistan to this day?

Yeah, I think my triggers are really around the timing. So Anzac Day is really meaningful for me now. And that's certainly has turned into a day of reflection for me. And I sort of try and surround myself with family and obviously military colleagues as well. But that period of time around early to mid August, each year, is a, yeah that's certainly a time of thinking, and a challenging month for me.

What do you want the New Zealand public to know about the work of the New Zealand Defence Force and Afghanistan?

I'd want the public to know that they've got a Defence Force that do deploy and do deploy into a range of different environments and situations and put themselves out there voluntarily, to go into these areas to represent New Zealand and represent our government and our military force. And that we need to own everything that goes with that, yeah, not all of our veterans cope well with their experiences, not all veterans up are broken and needing, you know, really intensive resourcing to help them. That certainly isn't true, I don't think in my opinion, but some do, and some are, and we need to own that and own those people's journey. Because it is you know, that these service people and veterans put themselves out there for our country.

David, thank you very much for your time today, we do really appreciate you sharing your story with us. We'll end with one final reflection. If you could go back in time and tell your younger self one piece of advice, or some words of wisdom, before deploying to Afghanistan, what would that be?

My advice to myself would be learn well and take all of your training seriously, because even though it's not highly likely that you'll ever be trade tested or profession tested to that level, it can happen and second piece of advice: Be careful what you wish for. We often think as young service people 'Wow, that, you know, I would like to have the opportunity to perform in those sorts of circumstances, and I wouldn't wish it on anybody."

This podcast is a production of the New Zealand Defence Force Defence Public Affairs team. We're your hosts, Alex Mason, and Mitchell Alexander. We'd like to thank our guests for sharing their stories with us.

If you need to talk to someone you'll find details for support services in the show notes. We welcome your feedback on this podcast, contact us by email podcast@nzdf.mil.nz. Haere ra.