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Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here with my co host Jason Sunkel and for four triple double number 23, Rob Bro head boys Basketball Coach at Bolingbrook High School in the state of Illinois.

Gentlemen, welcome in man.

Thanks for having me back and I am just thankful that Jason is with us and you know, can take some time away from academia for a little basketball.

So that's good.

Yeah, listen, I wouldn't miss it Rob.

It also it it hinges on my co host telling me which nights you're on.

I'm just going to reiterate that from the last podcast, if he doesn't tell me that you're coming on, I'm likely not on.

So if I don't show up, it's more than likely it's because he didn't tell me that you were coming on.

I make a special.

I make it A special note on my calendar, if Rob Rose is coming on the pod, I'm going to come on the podcast.

Wow.

I'm just happy it's a triple double tonight and not a double double.

I'm just going to leave it there.

We, Rob and I have been doing a lot of double doubles.

We haven't been.

We haven't been in the yic, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd, Russell Westbrook, and just Russell Westbrook.

All right, there we go.

So triple double.

We are going with three topics, if you're just tuning in for your very first one.

So topic number one that we're going to throw at Rob is the best lesson that a player ever taught you.

And I'm guessing that the lesson wasn't an intentional lesson that this player set out to teach Coach Roast, but one that in the course of coaching said player, having a relationship with said player, the lesson that that player taught you.

Yeah, I mean, there was a lot to choose from here, I think, because, you know, the longer I do this, the more I learn from my guys and the more mature I get, the more I allow the learning to come from my players.

But about had to be, well, this particular player graduated in 2015, so it's probably 2014.

So over a decade ago, you know, we had a situation at practice and my best player texted me that night about the thing that happened at practice.

And typically I would have just said, hey, let's talk about this in the morning or let's talk about this face to face, or let's, you know, let's get together tomorrow and get in front of each other to discuss it so nothing gets lost in translation.

But for some reason, I didn't do that this time.

And we texted back and forth, this particular player and I, for probably a good two hours, maybe two and a half hours of texting about the whole situation.

And then we got into other things about the team, and it just opened a whole thing of discussion and, you know, things that we probably should have been talking about.

It happened to be my best player.

And so my point is that I kind of went where he was comfortable at the time, and that happened to me on through text message.

And typically, and even now, most of the time, I'll say, hey, we need to talk about this face to face.

But for some time, for some reason, I didn't do that on for this time.

And we kept texting and it went on, like I said, for well over two hours.

And we talked about everything and then we got into life things and then we got into.

And the real thing that I learned from this player is he was ready to talk about all of those things right then, and he was ready through text message.

And so that's not the medium that I like to use often, but it brought us so much closer together.

And then we followed up with each other on a lot of those things just throughout the season.

Hey, remember this?

We talked about that.

We said we were going to, you know, go into a little bit further.

And my point is just to be ready when your players are ready for such communication.

And he just unloaded, but he was comfortable unloading via text message.

And so that's what we did that particular night.

And so I, you know, I like to think that I'm always there and aware and all of, all of those things.

But after that happened and then, you know, thinking about it in retrospect, you know, I. I had to meet him where he was, and he probably wouldn't have been as forthcoming if he was right in front of me as he was over text message, which was great.

And one of the things that then I could then reinforce to him when I did talk to him is these are the types of things I want to know all the time.

Not that we're going to meet every single day or after every single game, but there was so much on his mind, you know, at that particular time.

So the lesson from him was just be ready when your players are ready and whatever medium of communication they want to use or they happen to be using at that time, that's fine.

And so, like I said, it's not the type of communication I typically like.

I typically want to meet face to face, but this time, for whatever reason, we just got going and we just kept going.

And so it was refreshing to hear all the things that he shared.

And then it was even more refreshing to follow up and then be comfortable talking face to face about all of those things that he initially brought up.

Via text message in an impromptu discussion like that.

Rob, in your experience, do players talk more about life stuff?

Or maybe it starts off as a basketball question, then very quickly evolves into life stuff.

What do you, what have you found in your experience in terms of those types of conversations that are sort of unscripted?

That's a.

That's a great follow up, Mike.

And I think it's really important because usually it's the basketball that brings us together, but it's the life stuff that really comes out once we get below the surface of the basketball stuff.

And that's when you can really Connect with your players when those things happen and when they feel comfortable enough to share with you those things.

And that's ultimately, as a coach, what you want.

Right.

At least that's what I want them to feel comfortable sharing with me.

Things that maybe they don't feel comfortable talking to other people about, maybe that they can't really share with their parents because it might involve their parents, you know, other than safety issues, obviously, you know, you know, those things I'm going to keep to myself if, If I deem it that.

That it's okay.

Right.

And so I think once your players are comfortable with you and they feel comfortable sharing whatever medium that is, you have to take advantage of it, because there's so many outlets that are not so good for our players these days that.

Where they get wrong advice or someone's trying to take advantage of them, or someone's just trying to make them do things for certain reasons.

And I don't care about any of that.

I just care about them.

And so I think it's.

It's a great question.

And I think mostly it's about life stuff.

I would say of the two, two and a half hours that we were texting, it started off with team stuff, obviously, and then we got into, hey, how's your mom?

What's this happening with your sister?

And all of those things that were specific to him.

And he probably hadn't talked about those things to anybody, really, because he's 16 years old.

And so a lot of times you don't get a chance to share those things with anybody in particular with a male figure.

And so, you know, I think that was good.

And your question is really, really good.

And, you know, when we meet with our players individually, certainly we talk about basketball, but most of the conversations are about how's your family doing?

What's your relationships like?

All of those things.

How can I help you?

Are you anxious about things?

What are you feeling mentally?

All of those things.

And when your players are comfortable enough to share that with you, that's what you ultimately want.

I. I was just going to jump in.

I. I have a similar story, Rob.

It actually happened, like, three months ago.

I also coached cross country.

I don't know if you know that about me, Rob.

I coach cross country and basketball, so I'm a little bit of both.

Nice.

Yeah.

So at the end of the season, we, I guess one of the, you know, the kids had to write thank you notes.

They're like, teachers made them write thank you notes.

And, and those, like, three weeks after the season.

And I get this note in my school interoffice school mailbox.

And it's from one of my runners who, he was a goofball.

Didn't always know that he was listening to my directions.

And this was the, the general gist of the, the general gist of the message was Coach Songel, I know you didn't think I always listened to you, and I didn't always listen to you, but I want you to know I've been using one of your life lessons really well lately.

And I was like, as soon as I read this, I'm like, oh, my God, what's my life lesson that I taught this kid?

You told me that always to tell, to always make the decision that women are right no matter what I do.

And ever since I've heard that, I've been putting into practice and pretending that my mom is always right.

She doesn't yell at me anymore.

She's been nicer to me.

I'm not getting her, getting her in, getting into as much trouble.

So I want to thank you for this lesson that I will use for the rest of my life.

And that was all I needed to hear.

He learned a lesson.

It was not about cross country.

It was probably an offhanded comment that I made to him during cross country practice, and that's what stuck with him.

So it's just like the small things.

Not anything to do with basketball or cross country or the sport.

It's the small little life lessons that we can teach them about how the.

Women are always right.

So there you go.

I just wanted to throw that.

I'm not going to have any additional comment on the messaging for fear of, you know, retribution from any listeners out there.

But I, I think that's great to connect with, with, with kids like that for sure.

I think that goes to something that we've talked about, Jason and Rob, on the podcast numerous times.

And what I hear from both of those stories, and Jason in particular from yours, there is just that you don't always know what a kid is going to remember.

And it speaks to how important the role is that we play, whether we're playing the role of a coach, a parent, a teacher, whatever it may be that we're talking all the time, and there are always things that someone is going to take from what we say and that can drive them.

And it may be because of something that we said positively, which is what we hope is the case, unfortunately.

And I'm sure both of you can point to things in your life that somebody said to you that were maybe not purposely negative, but that you took in a negative way that have driven you to say, I'm going to prove this person wrong because of what they said to me.

They said I couldn't do this or I shouldn't do that.

And I always go back to the fact that the people and the things that I remember that coaches or teachers said to me that drive me in my life today, that drove me when I was a player and drove me when I was a coach.

I'm sure if I went back to the people who said those things, they would have absolutely zero recollection of having said the thing that I'm still carrying with me as a 55 year old man that someone said to me when I was 17 years old, they would have no memory of it whatsoever.

And it's still something that burns in my mind.

And that's what I always try to keep in mind when I'm talking to a kid or talking to anyone, that the things that I'm gonna say, somebody's gonna carry that with them.

And I think about that with my own kids.

I thought about it with my students, I think about it with players.

I just think it's a huge thing that sometimes we forget that there's always somebody listening because like Jason said, right.

Sometimes you look at a kid, you're like, this kid is paying zero attention to what I'm saying.

But yet they, ultimately they end up grabbing something.

So you, Jay, what'd you want to jump in with?

Well, I was going to say, I was going to say that just brings back the.

I've totally, I think I've told this story.

It's been a while on the podcast.

Of when I was in fifth or sixth grade, center middle school, in the hot box, in the gym and I totally broken my finger.

And I just came to basketball camp.

Mike was running basketball camp.

Rob and I came to basketball camp.

My mom said, you're not allowed to play in games.

Well, maybe Mike let me play in games.

And he goes, jason's coming out of the flu game.

It's his version of the Jordan flu game.

And, and I, we ended up winning the game.

And I just remember, I stupidly remember that comment he made to me with a broken.

It was, it was my ring finger, broken finger on my left hand.

It was not my ball dominant hand.

So it was okay, you know, but like I still remember that stupid, that stupid comment.

Like that just side comment.

And Mike has no recollection of that comment.

And I still remember it exactly and, and I, and I, and I literally that's the like, that's of all my head start basketball memories from when I was and I mean I went, I was the lifelonger.

I think I went from second to seventh grade.

I, that's the, the moment that sticks out in my brain.

The Mike saying it's Jason's coming back playing the game in a Jordan flu.

Jordan like flu game or something like that.

It was 1998, 1999, obviously, but that.

Was what he said to me.

So I, yeah, what it's all about.

Man, that's, that's the kind of impact.

That's what you're talking about.

I mean that's what, that's what it's all about is being able to impact somebody that again, 30 years later they still remember it in a way that affects them, hopefully in a positive direction.

Hopefully it drives them in some way or creates a memory for them.

And I think again, a two hour texting conversation with a player.

Rob, there's clearly lots and lots of things that you guys hit on and as you said, deepen your bond with that kid and I'm sure knowing you and knowing the way you run your program that you guys are still connected and tight even today.

Absolutely.

Yes.

That is very true.

And that is very, very true.

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All right, topic number two for tonight.

What's something that you believed in as a young coach that you've completely changed your mind on since you gained some years of experience?

Rob?

Yeah, there's several things on this one as well, but I think the most obvious one for me is when I was a young coach, I thought every single practice had to be as hard as you can go for as long as you can go for a certain amount of time.

And whatever I had on the planet, we were going to get through all of it.

If we didn't get through all of it, we're going to pick right up the next day right where we left off.

Then we're going to keep grinding Until I got through all the things.

And I am almost the exact opposite of that now.

Like today, for example, for practice, we're in four, four games in five day stretch.

And we had practice today two, we had a game Tuesday, game Wednesday, practice today, game tomorrow, game Saturday.

Today we stayed in the half court, walked through a couple of things and we shot and we got out of there.

That was it.

And so I think when I first began as a young coach, that would have never happened and we would have gone over every single set from the other team, but they run in the last four games.

We would have gone over every single inbounds play that they have run in the last four games in addition to going through all of our stuff.

And we would be doing it all really, really hard in my first several years of coaching.

And so that I think proved to be a dumb thing to do in my opinion now, and I'm of the opinion now especially your best players need to be healthy, fresh if you want any chance of winning against really good teams.

And so that is more important to me now than all of the things that I mentioned earlier that I thought were the most important things then, you know, which were, like I said, going through every single set that they ran in the last four.

All, all of those things today we didn't do hardly any of that today.

We had some guys that were sore from yesterday's game and the night before because we had to reschedule a couple because of the cold weather and some of the other things and our trip to Hawaii.

So we had some games kind of jammed up in on us this week.

So I would say the grinding nature of practices is the number one thing.

But another thing that I don't take as serious anymore.

And I know some coaches are going to roll their eyes at this one as I don't, I don't take warm ups as serious as I used to.

We talked about this in up pod, I think maybe 10 or so episodes back.

That's another one whereby on that one I. I can't remember.

I don't think so.

I don't think so.

It's pretty, pretty good chance.

I'm pretty sure that.

Wasn't that the one we talked about warm up music?

Wasn't that the one we talked about warm up music?

Music?

I can't remember.

But that's a, that's another thing where I've kind of backed off and let them kind of whatever gets them ready.

Within reason of course.

Of course we're not like, you know, totally goofing around during warmups.

But I used to, like, just watch warmups and be furious with my team before the game even started.

And so I don't do that anymore.

And if they're, you know, taking half speed layups, you know, every other one, I don't really mind, you know, now.

And I don't say anything because they're responsible for being ready to play.

And so those are two of the big ones.

But I think grinding through practice and making every practice a certain amount of time now I just.

This time of year, not at the beginning, but this time of year, I have like three things I want to get accomplished.

And, you know, I don't have it down to the second anymore.

Um, whereas the first three to four weeks we do have it down to the, you know, exact things that we want to do in timeframes and all that.

So I think the grinding nature of practice and now not doing that has really helped our team, has really helped our program, because our guys are fresh for the most part, healthy, knock on wood for the most part, and ready to play.

What was it that made you come to the realization that, hey, we don't have to grind out two and a half hours of practice on the day before a game.

Was that something that you came to slowly over time?

Was it a particular incident or thought or just what was the process for getting to that changing of your mind?

To be perfectly honest, and this is going to sound terrible and sound like I was an awful coach at the beginning, and I probably was at the beginning.

I tend tended to think when I first started that it was about me and if I had them prepared and we have to do all of these things now, I think the exact opposite.

It's all about them being the players and are they mentally and physically ready to play, Just simple stuff.

Are they hungry?

Are they thirsty?

Are they, you know, safe?

Do they have all their homework done?

Just things like that so you can just be free to play.

Now I'm concerned way more about those things.

Obviously we still hold our players accountable and they have to do all of the things that go along with being a basketball player at our place.

But it's all about them.

And are they feeling the way they need to feel?

Do you need to go to the trainer?

Do you need some rehab?

Do you need an ice bath?

Do you.

What do you need?

So both physically and psychologically, you are ready to go.

And sometimes with certain kids, it's a little different.

They got to stretch or do a thing or, you know, whatever.

And we don't allow kids to go rogue, of course.

But I do try to individualize what each player takes to get ready and if they're ready to go.

And so I think that's really been a helpful addition with our players.

And they don't realize it because they don't really know that I did that, especially our players now, because we like, they know how I think now.

Whereas you could see some of the mental anguish on players faces when they were coming to practice, like in January and February, and we were going for two hours and we were, you know, starting with defensive slides, full court and like getting after it and, you know, all of those things.

And now I cannot believe that I did those things.

And I think some of those things are good.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do those things, but I just think so much of it.

We do because the coach wants to show how much they know or how much they can put their guys through.

And I get the toughness aspect to it, but I also understand that kids are going to play really, really hard for you if they know that you understand or you're trying to understand what they're going through.

And that's what I try to do.

But at the same token, you know, you got to have some toughness in your team and you got to be able to play hard.

And if you don't see that, then you might have to change some things up.

So, you know, it's like I've said before, I go a lot on feel now more than I ever did.

I don't, you know, I don't just go off what my practice plan says or what my notes say.

I just go off of what I feel our team needs at that particular time.

And that's what we do.

And my assistants are really good at just kind of.

Sometimes I'll do a 360, sometimes do a 180, and we'll just move to something else.

And you know, before I would get the.

Well, that's not on the plan you normally.

Now they understand like, hey, I'm going off of what I feel the team needs.

What are some things that you try to tap into to better understand what the team needs?

Is that through again, the simple conversations when guys are stretching is that through just years of experience and being able to have a sense of, hey, man, guys seem.

Maybe they need something different today.

What, what are the.

What are the markers that you look for to.

To change?

Maybe we need a little bit more today.

I mean, we're talking kind of about Dialing back.

But maybe there are some days where, hey, maybe we got to get after it a little bit more than I anticipated.

So what are the markers that you're looking for?

There was.

There was a practice about a week and a half ago where I told my assistants, like, we're going, like, week one.

We're going, like, week one today because we had been lethargic in a game, and since we got back from Hawaii, we were a little, like.

I can't even really explain it.

So we needed.

You know, And I told them beforehand, hey, for the first 45 minutes, this is going to be, like, week one practice.

And you could just see, like, okay, you could just see.

They knew that they had to bring it.

And so I think it's a combination of a lot of things, to be honest with you, Mike.

It's the little conversations.

It's how they look.

It's how they.

You know, to be quite honest with you, we do this active stretching thing, and I walk with them and talk with them as they're stretching, and we kind of, you know, shoot the breeze as they're going.

It's conversations in there.

Hey, how you feeling?

What do you think?

You know, what's happening with you?

And it's, you know, it's different for every player because some guys in our four games and five nights play all the time in those, and then there's five or six guys that don't play at all.

So they're fresh, they're ready to go because they didn't do anything, really.

I don't want to say they didn't do anything, but you understand what I'm saying?

So it's.

You have to keep a balance of all of those things.

And so, uh, you know, we have this happen a lot, and it happened today, you know, when we're walking through some of the things that the other team does.

You know, the scout guys are going really, really hard because they're, like, fresh and ready to go.

And our guys are, you know, just talking through, like, I want them to do shadowing and all of those things.

So I think it's a combination of a lot of those things that you mentioned.

Sidebar conversations with them, how they looked, how they feel.

And you can just tell the.

I don't know if enthusiasm level is the right thing to say, but you can just feel kind of in the gym what it's like and what.

What you need to be doing.

And, like, I tell our guys, you, if you need a size 12 up your rear end to get you motivated, then that's what you're going to get.

But if you need a hug to get you motivated and some time off, that's also what you're going to get.

And so, but to get all of those things is different for every team.

It's different for most of the players.

And so, you know, we've, you know, played some games where we played at very high level and we've also played some games where we have not played very well.

And I've had to change it up a little bit this year, especially because we had to replace so many guys last year.

So much of the production from last year that this year we've had to do, you know, things a little bit different, not overwhelmingly different, but my point is that you get a feel for your team and you get a feel for their rhythm and you get a rhythm of the season kind of going.

And then, then I go by feel a lot of the time.

Yeah, completely different from the idea of I write up my practice plan in my office five hours before practice starts and I'm just going through it.

I'm going to do that regardless of day time situation, whatever the case may be.

And I do think that it is one way that not just you, but I think a lot of coaches over the course of the last 20, 25 years have certainly changed that approach in terms of being more, I don't know if it's player centric, but just being more aware of, like you said, how am I going to be able to get the best out of my team as opposed to what can I do as the coach to force my team to do the things that I want them to do Instead it's right trying to give the players the best environment to get the best out of them.

And I think that's where things have changed.

Where in the past it feels like the coach completely 100% dictated what the practice environment looked like.

And now, not that the coach doesn't control the practice environment because you still do, but what you're doing now is you're taking into account what is going to allow your team and your individual players to play the best.

And even though it's, it's almost like splitting hairs in that it's a very fine line between the two.

And yet at the same time, there's a huge chasm between the two in terms of just what that ends up looking like.

And it goes to your, it goes to.

Our first topic, right, is in order for you to be able to do that and have that feel for what your players need, both on an individual basis and a team basis.

You have to understand and have relationships with them so that when you're having those conversations, when you're walking with them in practice and you're hearing what a kid is saying, you know them well enough that you can hear something in their.

Their voice or you can have them share something that tips you off as to, hey, we're really ready to go today, or, hey, maybe today, you know, we're a little tired coming off that loss or that win or whatever it might be, and we got to approach it a little bit differently.

And again, it's amazing.

Rob, I just think about all the topics that we've talked about over the course of these triple doubles, and so many of them come back to what's the relationship between you as the head, you as the coach, and your players.

And then that allows you to get into the X's and O's and the culture stuff and all the different things that we've talked about over the course of time, it all comes back to coaching is a people business first.

And you've got to coach the people before you coach basketball.

And I think across all sports, to me, that's been probably the biggest positive change in the coaching profession is that people have realized that, yeah, I got to coach basketball, and I better have some basketball acumen and knowledge, but I also better understand people if I want to get the best out of my team.

And I don't think it was always like that with every coach.

Yeah, I think there's no doubt about that.

And I think, you know, we've covered this before, but, you know, when I do stuff with USA Basketball, it's not that I'm learning some great X's and O stuff.

And I mean, obviously we run good stuff and all of those things, but, like, you take a guy like Charmin White, what I learned from him is how he interacts with his guys.

Now he, you know, kind of side motivates his guys and what his relationships are like and what he jokes about and what he doesn't, what he's serious with them about.

And so you gleam some of those things from other elite coaches.

I'm not saying I'm one of those, but I can gleam what he's doing because he is an elite coach.

So you're an elite coach, you know, and.

And you're an elite coach, Rob?

Well, I. I mean, you've done somebody else.

You've done 23 episodes of the triple double.

You're an elite Coach, which is about 21 more than you've done, Jason.

But anyway, so I, I think also that there's always something that you could do, right?

There's always something you could prepare for.

And so we've kind of moved also from, instead of preparing for individual teams, just take the most common actions that a lot of teams run and work on those rather than.

So then we're working in the general parameters and then obviously the day before the game, we'll do some things specific to that team.

But, you know, we, we've been working on defending horns action and defending chin and defending all of those things since day one.

And so those are the most common things and zooms and all of those things.

And so we've been defending those things from day one because we know we're going to.

And if we can guard those things, we can guard just about anything.

And so I think it's just.

There's always something you can do in practice and there's always something you can grind out, but I don't think you necessarily get anything out of the grinding out a lot of the time.

And I didn't really realize that 20, 25 years ago now it's pretty clear.

Do you think that what you do now, if you had to characterize the way that you run your program, do you think it's become more simple or do you think it's become more complex?

I think the basketball piece has become more simple, but the interactions with the players are way more complex because there's so many more issues that we have to deal with now than we had to deal with even 10 years ago with social media.

Some of our guys are elite players, so they're dealing with nil things.

And then we got to deal with the high school issues relative to those things.

And so, you know, the, the basketball, I think, is much.

We try to make that as simple as possible, but by the same token, the simplicity of it make.

Makes it more complex because you have to make reads off of the simplicity, right?

And then you have to make decisions off of that.

And so the decision making, we talk about this all the time.

Habits and decision making.

If you have good habits and you have good decision making, you got a chance to be a really, really good player.

And if you're not good at those two things, developing good habits and making good decisions, then you're not going to be a very good player.

And so that's, it's.

The basketball seems simpler, but it's more complex because there's, you know, three reads off of everything and then there's the slip and then there's the re screen and then there's a twist and then there's all of those things.

But I want our kids to be able to react to those things rather than try to guess what's coming every time and then try to prevent a play from happening.

Just react to the zoom action or whatever they're running, if that makes sense.

It does.

It makes total sense.

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And that kind of leads into topic number three, which is if your team could only be elite at one thing that would help you win games, what would you choose that one thing to be?

Yeah, well, I'm going to immediately give you two things, but one of them is not necessarily a basketball thing, but my number one thing, if I had to pick one, is just the ability to compete and to compete on every single possession.

There are so many kids, and I would say most that don't want to compete.

And that wasn't necessarily the case when I, like, 15 and 20 years ago.

I think kids will compete if you give them an environment to do it, but they, a lot of times they will not do it on their own.

And if they're allowed not to compete, that's almost what they would prefer in general.

Obviously, as a coach, you need to set up an environment where competition is part of what you're doing.

But I would say the ability to compete every single possession.

And like I said to my guys yesterday, if a coach told me to keep a guy in front, man, I'm keeping the guy in front, period.

If I have to foul them, if I have to arm bar them some, no one is getting around me, period.

And I'm like, slow and a terrible defender.

But if a coach said, hey, keep a guy in front, that's what I'm doing, period.

Because I would compete.

And I wasn't the greatest player, probably just a very little bit above average.

But like, I Would compete.

And that made me a really.

Were you sneaky, athletic, Rob?

A little bit better than average player?

Were you sneaky, athletic?

I don't know what I was.

I was.

I wasn't.

I wasn't anything really.

That was Mike's profile, the competition.

Mike was sneaky, athletic.

That was your profile, wasn't it?

Well, six.

I think that's a good thing to.

Be a six, three white guy that plays below the rim.

So I guess you had to describe me in some way.

That was, that was.

That was a kind way.

That was a kind way to describe it.

So.

Yeah, so that's good.

So I think the ability to compete is the number one thing I would say.

But if there was one basketball thing, I would say the shooting piece of it.

If you can shoot it, you're going to be on the floor.

And if you can shoot it, you know, at a high rate and you can shoot it where it's not just catch and shoot threes, you can.

You know, like with Trey, we're starting to work on things where, you know, he's a little undersized at 511.

We listen about 6 foot, but he's probably 5 11.

You know, especially next year, he's going to have to be able to, you know, lean back a little bit to shoot his jump or, you know, all of those things to become a shot maker.

And he's not a prolific scorer by any means, but he can make shots.

And so I think the shot making ability is the number one thing right now.

And then, you know, right behind that is making good decisions with the basketball and not turning it over.

So I think the being competitive and being competitive with everything as it relates to basketball shooting and then, you know, not turning it over and those types of things, decision making.

So I know I gave you three and I was only supposed to give you one, but there you go.

All right, well, let's hit on each of those.

Mike likes to violate the rules in NBA episodes.

Yeah, I violate stuff all the time with Jason.

When Jason, when Jason acts as the host and he gives me questions or things, I always go with multiple answers to questions.

So, yeah, I'm right there.

I know exactly how it can be.

So competitiveness.

When I think of competitiveness, right.

I think of, again, it encompasses playing hard.

Right.

And you can all, we can all say that, like playing hard.

I hear that from college coaches a lot that playing hard is a skill.

But I think playing hard is, is a, is an offshoot.

It's a derivative of being competitive.

Right.

Because like you said, if I'm going to try to keep somebody in front of me, if that's my.

What my coaches tasked me with, then I'm going to do that.

In order for me to do that, I got to play hard.

And that stems from my competitiveness of I'm just not going to let this happen.

And so I do think that if you have a team full of guys that compete, that it makes up for a lot of deficiencies potentially in another area.

And I do think it's interesting that you said that guys maybe aren't as competitive as they are or as they were 15 or 20 years ago, maybe when you started coaching.

And I know that you and I have had this discussion in some form, and I've had it numerous times on the podcast.

But the players today, when I look at the landscape, right.

That the average high school player today is way more skilled than a high school player 20 years ago, 15 years ago, whatever number you want to throw out there, the.

The skill level in terms of their ability to shoot, handle the ball, do things that I couldn't have dreamed of doing when I was a high school senior in 1988, just the skill level is so much higher.

No doubt.

And yet.

And yet, at the same time, I do think that the competitiveness is not quite the same.

I look at what I did as a player or what guys, guys that I coached early in my career and the way that they grew up in the game, and I don't know what you guys called it in, in Iowa when you were growing up, but we used to play 33, where you shoot the free throw and however many guys you got standing underneath the basket or trying to get the rebound, and then you get the rebound, it's one on five or whatever it is.

Yeah.

And so we called that 33.

And of course, when you're playing with your buddies in the driveway, that quickly devolves into a game of football, but it also devolves into a game that you want to win.

And so you just develop this competitiveness.

And that's just one example.

But because kids don't do that in the same way, I do feel like this is a common theme that I hear from coaches at all levels, that the competitiveness and how much it means to somebody to win or lose maybe isn't the same as it used to be, because again, an AAU tournament, you lose.

And guess what?

We got another game in an hour, and you forget about that one.

Whereas you or I, when we were growing up, or Jason you play so many less games.

No doubt.

Every.

Every game meant.

Every high school game to me was life or death, you know, and in the summertime, I was lucky if I played 10 or 12 or 15 games, let alone.

I mean, some of these guys are playing, you know, whatever, 50 games in a.

In a spring and summer.

And so the.

The individual value of each of those games goes down.

And I still have, I think, a picture that my dad took of me after an AAU tournament game that I played in when I was maybe 15.

And I'm, like, sitting against the bleachers, like, basically in tears with my teammates sitting next to me, and we both look just totally beat up and bedraggled.

And, you know, it's just like that game meant something to me.

And, you know, so it's.

I think that ability.

There's no doubt, and play hard is.

Is.

Is critical.

I don't necessarily think it's the kid's fault.

It's a lot of times the adult's fault, because, you know, parents, especially now, they want what they want, and they want it immediately.

And then if they don't get it, they start their own a U team or they go to a different school or they, you know, do something.

And I don't think it's necessarily the kid's fault.

That's just the way that they've been, you know, brought up to, oh, this is getting a little hard.

Well, okay, you only played, you know, two minutes, and I think you're better than Johnny, and he played 17 minutes.

Well, let's.

Let's fix that.

And then they will fix that however they deem it necessary to fix it.

Starting their own team, going to a different school, yelling at whatever it is to fix that.

And the fix isn't, hey, get better, do better, and beat the people out that are ahead of you and convince the coach that that's the way how some kids obviously do that, but it's just a different time now.

I remember in high school when I was a sophomore and I was on the varsity and I was barely playing, and I said something to my dad, like, what?

I don't even know if I want to do this.

And he said, in no uncertain terms, like, if you don't.

If you can't convince the coach to put you out there, that's your fault and nobody else's, so you better shut your mouth.

And he used some other terms, obviously, and just work harder.

And like, so that's what I was told when I said that.

And so I don't Know if it made me a better person or a better player, it certainly made me work harder and it certainly made me whine and not complain because that's what I got at home.

And I'm not sure that a lot of kids are getting that at this point.

Yeah, that is not the same messaging I would guess that most people are getting.

That's one.

It's one of the things that I know that in my own self reflection, primarily in my role as a parent, that I have these conversations in my head with myself all the time and try to be very intentional about the messages that I give to my two kids who are still playing when things don't go their way or they're not playing as much as they want to, or they didn't play as well as maybe they could have that I'm very careful with what I say and how I say it.

No doubt.

So as, so as to do exactly what your dad was trying to do with you, which is to yes, not blame somebody else, but to put the ball in their court of hey, you've got to do better in order to A, get more playing time or B, get more opportunity in a game to do things.

There's a reason why maybe you're not.

Because you got to do more and you've got to play harder.

You've got to compete better.

No doubt.

And so I think that that messaging sometimes is again in the mod in the modern world.

It's lost sometimes.

And as you said, it's not the kids fault.

A lot of time that comes from us as parents for sure.

I remember specifically when Trey was in sixth grade and they didn't have a sixth grade team.

So he made the seventh grade team.

But of course he's smaller and not as good as the seventh graders at that time.

And he was one of two sixth graders that made the seventh grade team and he wasn't playing much or at all.

And I said to him, your only job this season is to be a good teammate.

That's it.

You should be the first one off.

High five and guys.

And then if you get a minute, then you take a minute.

And this was before he.

Not that he's, you know, phenomenal now, but this was before he like worked at it.

So he was very average player.

But that's what I told him.

Just be a good teammate and somebody that everybody wants to play with.

Be that.

And then when your opportunity comes, then you'll play well because you'll be ready.

And that's exactly what happened.

Now he didn't play a lot his sixth grade year, and he shouldn't have.

He probably played more than he should have.

But my point is, my messaging to him was very deliberate.

Just be a good teammate.

That's your only job.

Just be that.

And to a large extent, that's kind of what I tell him.

Now, obviously, he's our starting point guard and he has been for a couple years, and he's, you know, a scholarship college player and all those things.

So expectations are more.

But as long as you're a good teammate and you're concentrating on that, your play will follow.

And sometimes it won't follow as fast as you want it, but your play will follow.

And so I'm confident that that's.

That's true.

But some people don't want to be patient and let that.

Let that happen.

Yeah, that's a great point.

And I think in the overall basketball landscape, if we could take that advice and bottle it up and just send it to every parent in the basketball landscape from second grade through 12th grade, we would have.

We would.

Our coaches, our.

Our coaches across the country would be a lot happier.

I could tell you.

I can tell you that much for sure.

And I can just follow that up with next year.

He's going to be a freshman.

I'm going to tell him the exact same thing because he.

It's going to be hard for him to get on the floor next year.

And.

And he's got to figure it out.

He's got to figure it out.

And if he does and he gets some minutes, that's great.

And if he doesn't and he doesn't get any minutes, then that's great, too.

He's got to just be a great teammate and be a player that other players want to play with.

That's where his value is going to come.

And just like it did in sixth grade.

And so.

And just like it does right now, even though he's a starting point guard on one of the best teams in the state, like, I get that, but like, your value comes from people wanting to play with your.

You.

Then you could take it a step further that the lesson that you're trying to impart to him goes beyond just whatever he's going to do as a basketball player.

Right.

It goes to his development ultimately as a person when the ball stops bouncing, whenever that is.

And that's what I keep coming back to with my own kids.

And it's something that, again, I have an internal dialogue with myself all the time about what's important and why Is it important?

And how do I get there?

And I'm just like anybody else who's a human being that you want your kids to be successful and you want them to be on the floor all the time, and you want them to be able to have a huge impact on their team's wins and losses in a given game.

But then you step back and you're like, well, what I really want is a great experience.

I want them to learn lessons that can apply not just on the basketball court, but that when they're 35 years old, they can look back on their experience and.

And draw on that to help make their life better.

And I think that, again, it's an internal conversation that I sometimes struggle with in terms of making sure that that's the messaging and not just, hey, get your butt out there and play harder.

Do X, Y and Z.

And not that I'm not having those conversations too, but, yep, it always eventually comes back to, like, what you're talking about.

Right.

Be a great teammate, do the things that you're supposed to do, play so well, and be that person that everybody wants to be a part of that somebody's got to give you minutes or somebody's got to give you a bigger role or whatever it is.

And if you do all those things, you're going to end up with that great experience that we're talking about.

And that's ultimately what we're, you know, that's ultimately what we're all hoping for.

No doubt.

All right, the shooting piece of it.

Last thing, real quick.

I think shooting, when it comes to me, when it comes to.

When it comes down to me for shooting.

And I know that this is.

I'm going to talk about this from a youth basketball perspective and talk about my experience coaching my kids as elementary school students.

I cannot tell you, Rob, the number of times that I would be sitting on the bench and we would do something, maybe we ran a great out of bounds play or our offense really was generating some great looks, and we'd get a shot and the kid, whoever it was, would miss the shot.

And I'd be sitting there like this and I'd be watching and I'd look and the shot wouldn't go in.

And I can't even tell the number of times I would just turn to whoever my assistant was in that particular team or year and just turn to him and say, the ball just doesn't go in.

I don't know what to tell you.

Yeah.

And you know, it's.

You can do as a Coach, you can have the most wonderful schemes and plays, and you can run your conceptual offense and you can have your motion and you can run your ball screen and whatever, you can get out and transition if the ball doesn't go in.

None of it.

None of it, none of it really, none of it really matters.

And so I do think that shooting ultimately is, is the great equalizer.

It's a great equalizer as a player, and it's an equally great equalizer for, you know, for, for a team, team be able to shoot the ball well, it, it covers up a lot of ills.

And so I, I, I agree with you that if you're gonna, the reason why we all started playing basketball is to watch the ball go in the basket.

And so if there's one skill that you could be elite at, I, I think being able to shoot the ball is probably the one you'd pick.

And that's something you can get better at no matter how good you are at it and you get the reps in.

And this is coming from a coach who's two best shooters yesterday went 2 for 21 from 3, and my son was included in that 2 for 21.

So, I mean, we talk.

I mean, we still were able to win the game and win pretty handily, but we didn't shoot the ball very well.

And so, you know, the, the idea is that that doesn't happen very often.

And thank goodness that it doesn't.

Yeah.

When you don't shoot the ball well, you see it.

I mean, I see it watching my son's college team.

I see it watching my daughter's high school team, that there's games where the ball goes in and suddenly we're beating really good teams.

There's other games where the ball doesn't go in.

And I'm like, how is this game close?

This team we're playing is terror, is terrible.

Yeah.

And then you look at the shoot, then you look at the shooting percentages, you're like, oh, I see.

Yeah, I see why I, you know, we're shooting, we're shooting 28 from the floor.

My daughter's team, we won a game this year.

We shot 12% from the field.

Yeah.

And we won somehow.

We were yesterday from three.

Now we shot very well from two, and we got some transition buckets.

So, you know, we were able to win the game and the game was never in doubt, but we just shot poorly from three and we took good ones.

I mean, but just did.

They didn't go in.

And that's, that's the way it goes sometimes.

Absolutely.

All right, Rob.

Jason, number 23.

In the books.

In the books.

In the books.

We, we chalked Jason.

We're gonna have to get like a, a prison marking system up here for the number of episodes that Jason come comes out to add that to the, add that to the mix.

Yeah, Jason, you just like taking abuse here on the podcast.

It's always good.

So it is what it is.

All right.

Anyway, thanks everyone for listening tonight.

Really appreciate it.

And we will catch you on our next episode.

Episode.

Thanks.

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