[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to how to be human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discuss clarity.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat clear mind and let's chat.

Hello?

[00:00:23] Nina Endrst: Hello. It's on the sunshine today.

It's been a very gray past few weeks. I feel like the sunshine is so welcomed. Yeah, it's been

[00:00:37] Anna Toonk: really depressing.

[00:00:42] Nina Endrst: Yeah, I don't find it. I mean, I don't, it doesn't Diprose me, but I get a little, like, it almost makes me anxious when it's just overcast or gray, where I'm like, you gonna do something or what you had a rain, are you going to clear? Like, what are you going to do? You know, like something about that gives me a little bit of anxiety and I'm like, what do you care?

Just let the weather be.

[00:01:06] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I find that my energy is a lot lower when it's that way, like a lot lower. And that just doesn't feel good after weeks and weeks and fucking weeks. But interestingly, this feels like a very good day to record a podcast about clarity.

[00:01:25] Nina Endrst: It's true. Seems somewhat in alignment. I'm interested with the definition is so we're talking some clarity.

It's not that sexy, to be honest, which kind of made me laugh. I was like thinking about it and thinking about how much, you know, both of us really love clarity and are really like in service of it in so many ways. And I was like, oh, I can't wait to see what, like cute little definition, like this thing we love so much.

And the definition by Oxford languages, noun the quality of being coherent and, and intelligible for the sake of clarity, each of these strategies is dealt with separately to the quality of transparency or purity, the crystal clarity of water, which I feel like is some of what we also really like about this, that it is a bit, you know, you can hypothesize, you could say a million different things, you know, you could be like clarity is this, you know, Actually it's something that usually is, I think, simple, I was sort of surprised that simplicity wasn't a factor or something about things being, what am I trying to say?

Like, uh, re almost like reduced to their parts or something or stripped down or something like that. But I was like, it made me start thinking about how much our definitions of anything and even our sense of clarity about anything is so personal, so subjective and like, so fleeting, I think about things I was so clear on and I'm like, how long did that last?

And I'm like moments, you know? So I'm curious what you thought clarity was or how you would have defined it before hearing with Oxford thought. Yeah.

[00:03:21] Anna Toonk: I mean, obviously. I don't know that I've ever thought about. I mean, not, I defined it literally this morning, I guess I didn't define it as much as I did.

How to, how to know when you're clear. And that was interesting because I guess how I would define it as a state of union between the, which is what I talked about, your mind, your body and your soul, like a calming unity between them, where it is, you were not attached, like clinging to something or trying to control something.

It's just this kind of. I have an epiphany. I wouldn't describe it as quite so intense, but just like this clarity of, I guess you can't really, I can't really define the word, but the word, but this simplistic knowing right. Or simplistic state of being, and also then glass being able to see through and just see things.

[00:04:22] Nina Endrst: But that's yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I hadn't thought about it. I hadn't thought about it in terms of like everyone being on board that it being, you know, like mind, body, soul. I hadn't thought about clarity in that regard. And I've thought about, I don't know about you with, but with my own clients, like I hear about clarity a lot, you know, whether it's something somebody is seeking or they're telling me, you know, maybe they're bringing me up to date on something and saying, I've gotten cleared, you know, clarity about this or whatever.

And. It was it's it's still. Like in, it's interesting hearing your definition. Again, something I've been thinking about a lot lately is how most people, I think, think they're far better communicators than they are and had a really, I mean, I've never thought I was like a good communicator. I mean, or like an excellent one or anything I've thought I was like, okay, because it's also been something I've had to do a lot of, you know, like whether that was being a middle person between teams or things like that, like I've always had to kind of do communication and it is always interestingly, if you're working for people or you're someone who interprets for people, like I thought about how often this has come up for me in my life that.

And I see it a lot with my family as well, which I'm sure other people do where like, you know, my brother will be like, I, like I said, let's get dinner. And I'm like, no, you texted me and said, have you watched blah? I'm like, I wasn't ignoring your like dinner as you didn't ask it. You know? And it's like, it was in his head or whatever, you know, like how often we communicate and I've thought about it so much, like now with the pandemic.

And I think everyone's a little bit like bringing damaged from the pandemic. Like it's, it's interesting to me, I've been reading all these things. I mean, cause we know trauma impacts the brain. We know all these and we've all gone through a collective trauma. And it was like, I saw some headline recently that was like, feel like you have to keep like, repeating yourself.

Like you do. Like no one has memory right now and all this stuff. And it made me think about clarity and how often I think we resist it in relationships and like create narratives, but also give ourselves maybe too much credit for communicating clearly. And. I've started. Like sometimes when I'll get really riled up, I'll go back and I'll like, look at my texts or I'll even say to the person, I'll be like, hold on.

Like, this is, this is a meeting, not a youth thing potentially, but like I heard this, like, is that what you meant? You know? Or I've just like been tasking myself to do more clarifying versus I think assuming, and I'm curious for you with that. Like when we decided to do this topic, I just that's immediately where I went was both like, in terms of reading and I really believe in the power of clarity, but also the resistance we have about it in relationships.

And I was curious, cause I think you're someone who really tries to stay clear in your relationships that I wonder what that's been like when people are also so resistant to it. Uh, I, I,

[00:07:46] Anna Toonk: first of all, I think you're an excellent communicator. Thank you. Like top-notch. I've been for real? No, I mean, it I've been commuting.

I've communicated with a lot of people in my life

[00:08:00] Nina Endrst: that all of a sudden you became old time and you're like, oh, I've been

[00:08:03] Anna Toonk: around the block and back. Okay. I've been communicate in since you've been in moons and stuff. No, but seriously, I feel like lately there's just, I'm struggling so much. I have to literally cover my eyes right now because I'm trying to go in so much and be like, I really don't want to become super judgmental.

And I know I already have that little bit in me. You know, it's like, what is everybody fucking doing? But

[00:08:40] Nina Endrst: like, so funny, I've also literally witnessed this when I've seen her wrestle and be like, and then what is everybody fucking doing? Like,

[00:08:53] Anna Toonk: I'm just, you know, leaving the house. I'm just like, what is this? What is this what's happening? Like people can't drive people or, you know, it's just, if someone asked me if I was in line the other day, when I was already, when I was literally like pouring milk, Coffee in front of her.

Like, I clearly already gotten what I needed and I was just like, why? Like, what do you mean? So

[00:09:17] Nina Endrst: I say once a week to a stranger on the streets of New York city or in a coffee, I say once a week to a stranger, what is happening right now, early.

[00:09:26] Anna Toonk: And then I walk outside and this guy's like, baby girl. And I was like, not today, sir.

No, but it wasn't, to me, it was with his girl and he was like, you want to go take some shots? And I'm like, where am I? What's happening? It's three o'clock we afternoon. But I do. I consider myself to be a very clear communicator. That being said, I've slowed it down a lot, which I actually think is part of my ever evolving definition is taking a beat, like slowing it down because I used to go so fast.

I used to talk so fast. He used to move so fast that. Maybe I thought I was being clear, but it wasn't, people don't move as quickly as I do, so I wasn't getting across. So I've learned to slow it down and try to be a little bit more grounded and effective in how I'm speaking to people. And that seems to help sometimes.

But I just, I just feel like people don't want to be clear a lot of the time. And so it's when you're rubbing up against that, it's hard to be in relationship with certain people because if there's, you know, I'm often the friend that there's no, like there's no sugar coating of anything, right. It's just, oh, this is, this is how I feel, or this is what happened or this is how I see it.

And most people want to like, shoot the shit and kind of like, you know, Ponder and maybe it's this, or maybe it's that or beat around the Bush. And I just am, I just don't communicate like that in general. So I find it hard to communicate with people sometimes because I'm like, I just see it like this.

It's not, I don't feel like there's a need for a long conversation. Who said who? It was an Airbnb the other day, they were like, let's have a call. I'm like about what? I need you to change a location. Like it couldn't be any clearer. I don't want to have a call.

[00:11:29] Nina Endrst: I find. Oh, my God though. See, this is what I mean.

I do think we have a communication episode is on the books for, at some point. And maybe I should save this for that, but I'm not gonna w I think the intersect of like clarity and communication is fascinating, because how many times have you sent an email where you're like, hi, I wanted to know how much are your apples and the person responds with, can we schedule a call?

I'm unclear. And you're like, I don't even know how you got unclear about that. Yeah. Like, unless you're like, I sell pairs bitch, like, I don't understand what we need to discuss. And sometimes though I'll get like all in a Huff and be like, why does this person need to talk to me or whatever? And then I'll call them.

I'll be like fighting, you know, and I'll hop on the phone with them. And they're like, yeah, we just had a question. I wanted to walk through that. This was actually really helpful, you know, and it really was clarifying, it was super helpful. And you know, that I'll be like, oh, that was valid because I think so much like if, if, if we're going with the definition of clarity in terms of it being coherent and intelligible intelligible means that people need to be able to understand it, you know?

And, uh, what's the word I want not incorporate, but they need to digest it. You know, like people need, it needs to be digestible. Something that I feel like is a real problem. It's starting to make me feel like a real fucking boomer, which I resent is the intellectual laziness. That seems to be rampant, like even pre pan Demi again, using the, the, you know, the example of, uh, how much are your apples.

You couldn't have thought about that for two seconds before you immediately wanted to call or had questions, or I feel like sometimes people to want to push for clarity or questions or whatever, like to flex or be like, I have a brain to connect, you know

[00:13:36] Anna Toonk: what I mean? Like to make a false connection or to just that's what I mean by, I don't, and again, I don't want to be assuming the worst of people and I really try not to, I just, I'm more baffled, like 90% of the time, just like, how did we get here?

You know? And also my. Mercury is an area. So that doesn't help because my communication style is also like, oh yeah,

[00:14:04] Nina Endrst: yeah. It's the funniest thing in the world when Nina has a bee in her bonnet and she thinks she's being really clear and it's like a cave person with a lot of energy has just sent something like it'll, it's like when this now, like, and I'm like, that's what she's hopped up on right now.

It's hilarious. Oh my

[00:14:28] Anna Toonk: God. Really? I, I, I do

[00:14:31] Nina Endrst: that sometimes when you fire it off. Yeah. You always like, kind of. You know, like it's never rude. It's not, but it's more like, I can just tell when you're in different modes. Oh. You know, it's, it's sort of like, you know, the similar, when like people have been like dicking us around and I'm like, hi, yes.

I will be entertaining that no more. And you're like, whoa, you got to give them the business. And I was like, yeah, I was over it. I just couldn't do it anymore. You know, it's just like those modes, you start to notice with people, but it's always like, you know, Tom's cigarette. This comedian talks about like, when he's like, you know, when you're so mad, you can't like form sentences.

He's like, I was so mad that I was just like, no, you know, like just yelling, you know? And I think that's also a hilarious thing to me about. The intersection of emotions and clarity.

[00:15:33] Anna Toonk: I feel like there's judgment and clarity assumption and clarity, communication and clarity. What did you just say? Right. Like all of these things, we stand a

[00:15:44] Nina Endrst: chance, like all, I mean, what is it a base for any of those?

[00:15:50] Anna Toonk: Well, when I did the, how to, I, I literally took people from, you know, which I do a lot, but I, I took them through each part of their physical, you know, body, emotional body and ask them to just think about, or receive the first word or visual that came to them and kind of practice getting clear in a really simple way, that way from the ground up.

And I find it settles me too to just be like, okay, Sometimes I'm, I'm a goner. Sometimes it just I'm like in it for the week. And I just have to buckle my seatbelt and like, not talk to as many people as possible. That was me last week. Like I was just like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what this world is.

Nothing is clear. Everything is money. I just, I couldn't see much,

[00:16:42] Nina Endrst: except I blame you for my new escapist hobby. Which one? Terrible reality

[00:16:49] Anna Toonk: that was before me. I'm I feel honored.

[00:16:52] Nina Endrst: No, not the, not the, like, not to the level. Yes. But it's similar where I'm like, I felt the same way of like people. Yeah. I felt muddy and was like, I need less people and energy, you know, and I need to recede and I'm money.

I get sad.

[00:17:17] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And when I don't feel clear, I don't need to feel clear every moment of every day, but I think that's becomes an addiction, you know, but I do when I can't find it for what happened the other day, I was on my way into Barre class and I got a text right before and it annoyed me. And was there a real reason?

It annoyed me. Yes, actually, because I kept, I felt like this person kept communicating something, kept being unclear about what they were communicating, but they kept doing it like over and over again. It was like, well, this, you know, I just, I don't want to give too much away because, but yeah. Anyway, I was like, oh, like, would

[00:17:59] Nina Endrst: you feel like they were being like passive aggressive?

[00:18:03] Anna Toonk: Just like we've already had absent-minded and kind of like oblivious that, that also drives me insane when I'm like, maybe if you could like, look at. What the facts are. We could feel we could. And again, that's hard. Like we can't, I can't expect that of people I'm fully aware all the time, but I'm just like, this is a pretty straight, you know, clear cut situation.

So why are we having it so many times and in like such a complicated way when it doesn't need to be complicated, but I was pissed because I walked into bar, which is usually where I clear my mind and you better believe I hang up. I hung on to that fucking text. Like almost the entire hour.

[00:18:54] Nina Endrst: It doesn't surprise me.

I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think though, something I find interesting is like how you and I are wired differently where. It's funny. I don't think of myself as a particularly chill person, but I think I'm chill as in comparison to you only in regards of like, you're kind of strict in a way, you know, you're like Gar is for me and it is for clarity, Edo lake.

And I think, um, but I mean, all of these things, I think, you know, it's like, it has good things and bad things do it in the sense of like, I'm chill and then I'll just kind of go along with shit or I'll be like, eh, it wasn't that big a deal. And then I melt down, you know, like later. So it's like all of, yeah, all this stuff's going to get you.

It's just like a matter of when, you know, but it's. And sometimes I'll have that same experience of like, when I'll be, you know, or like before bed, you know, like someone texts you or is like, you know, I want to talk, I need to talk to you. And you're like, why the fuck did you send this to me at 10 o'clock at night?

You know, like, yeah, for sure. I'm not saying that I'll be like what I was we'll we'll we'll talk tomorrow or whatever, but I think it, I think what I find funny is that, like, it's something you get mad about it that's giving it too much, but I like the way that you're like, annoyed about it. Like for yourself, that it feels like such a way of taking care of yourself and being self-protective of like, I'm annoyed.

Like you're not annoyed. That person texted you. Like it's like no, or, or whatever. It's like, you're annoyed that this thing is taking away from like this space where you go to for something which. As I get older, I find myself giving that more importance and realizing it's something that I've Gaslight myself about or put down or set that silly or that self-indulgent or whatever.

And now I'm like, well kind of everything is everything about our life is, you know, like everything's selfish, you know, like if you want to go down that line of thinking, you know, that it's like, if you've decided this is a place that you go to, like commune with yourself in some way, like, it's fine to be protective of that.

You know? Like I used to feel that way sometimes about certain, like, I, I like to go to sound baths and things like that. And, you know, there were certain friends that always wanted to tag along, but I knew like, I don't really want to share this with you. Like, no, like no offense, but I knew that they were like not PR or they weren't going to get and be like, well, let's go get dinner afterwards.

There's that? And I'm like, no, I like to go there and get stoned on the sound. I usually like really deeply commune with myself, like in the kind of rest after it, because. You know, for whatever reason, my brain really will go night-night with some bowls, you know, like once people start playing the crystal ball, my brain's like ma it's like one of the most remarkable things I've ever experienced as someone with really active brain chatter that I want to be in it, you know, like I want to stay in that and get whatever I need from it and feel protective of that.

But I had fewer things about that. I think it's very interesting that you, you do it more as like a lifestyle. And I think that probably helps you with some of your day-to-day decision-making because you can feel much more clearer, you know, of like what works, what doesn't, what you're interested in, what you're not, because you're really staying connected to that process of being clear.

Yeah. I

[00:22:19] Anna Toonk: think I get, I know I got really a lot more depressed too. I've always, you know, Like kind of had to ride that wave. And clearly me getting clarity in an exercise class is not enough to fight off depression, but, or to heal it any bit of it. However, at this point with like the low grade that I feel like I feel it kind of is.

So if I go and I feel if I have a buildup of days where I feel like I'm not getting what I need, or I'm not getting my self in a space where I can offload some of the stuff that I'm holding, then I, of course don't feel clear, but I also start to feel. Way more overwhelmed, anxious, and like teetering on depressed.

So, yeah, it's a buildup for me. And it's one that I have to be very strategic and strict about for sure. Because otherwise I just don't really, I don't want to say I don't like myself because I love her too sad bitch, but I love that. I know what you mean. You just, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't. And you know, having a kid, like, I want him to experience the range of emotions.

I don't want him to ever. I think he can't feel away. And he seen me sad, you know, not in a way of like take care of me, but he's seen,

[00:23:47] Nina Endrst: we wept on your sofa together to a documentary and he was totally fine playing in the corner. Not like it's sociopath, but, but it was just like, all the ladies are having feels I'll play with money.

[00:23:58] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I mean, we cry way and I will literally weep at queer eye and Milo's like, they're doing it again. But

[00:24:08] Nina Endrst: like, when I get out, when I'm

[00:24:09] Anna Toonk: on with customer service, he's like, are you happy? Are you mad? I'm trying to be not mad, but I'm not happy. But I, I was feeling like I haven't talked to myself in a, in a shitty way in quite some time.

And I was really mad at myself. I wasn't mad at this person. I didn't want to be mad at this person. Like, I didn't want to resent them. I didn't want to. Yeah. And

[00:24:36] Nina Endrst: so it wasn't about them at all. It

[00:24:38] Anna Toonk: wasn't, but it was like, I feel like because I set things up in a way that's very clear. I would appreciate that back to some degree.

And so when I don't get it once, twice, like fine here and there, fine. But like, kind of, it just was like over and over and over again, the same thing. So that just was kind of making my brain melt. But point is, I was frustrated with myself that I let myself obsess about it until the end. And then I'm like, whatever, you still got, what you came for, you still feel better.

You actually wrote them a very nice, clear message when you got out, which by the way was kind of like going in really annoyed, shocking, you know, I wasn't rude, but I was just. I was not like fluffy. And so clarity for me is, is a lot about patience too, you know, and waiting for it to come and wa and being okay when it's not there and trust and all just this it's, they're all like living together for me.

And last week I felt really confused and the sun came out today and I was like, huh, I feel, I feel like I have some hope again. And I think hope and clarity too, are very connected for me.

[00:26:07] Nina Endrst: I have a question for you that I'm like not to make you feel like you're a therapy. I'm going to ask Nana, tell us, I have noticed and kind of similar to this example, you're giving that sometimes when you do feel you've been very clear, you really do get upset of people. Aren't like aren't clear or don't get it or whatever.

And I'm curious, it feels to me as an outsider. I mean, obviously I could have asked you about it as any old time, but why not do it when we're recording and have microphones, then it seems sometimes like you take it almost like personally, which is, which is interesting to me because you don't take a lot personally.

Like we are so opposites of where we take stuff personally. Oh my God. We are. Thank God. And I'm insane. I mean, and, and, and knowingly like it, uh, it amuses me. I'll be late winded and blah, blah, blah,

[00:27:01] Anna Toonk: like, oh

[00:27:02] Nina Endrst: brother, like, you know, it will always give a very kind answer, but I'll be like, why is it, you know, blah, blah, blah, or whatever anyway, but I find it interesting sometimes that it's.

To me. I'm like, oh, it seems like she's like taking this personally where I'm like, they're being monk. Like what do you care? You're as possible and on person would have had a question or, yeah, I feel

[00:27:28] Anna Toonk: like it's a form of disrespect, which I know

[00:27:30] Nina Endrst: is Ooh, interesting.

[00:27:32] Anna Toonk: I don't like when I try really hard to get out of my comfort zone and say, and slow it down, like I said, I could talk, I could just speak a mile a minute.

I could just blow through things and leave many people in the dust. And I, and I don't want to do that. Right. And it's not helpful. It's not fun. It's not charming. It's just, uh, it's rather destructive. So when I really try hard to, to. Be embodied in my body when I'm saying something and be clear and consider them, that's the thing I'm considering the other person that when someone's just like, choose it, what I feel is like choosing not to hear me or choosing to ignore it.

That's what I feel. Even though that's definitely not the case. I feel like disrespected.

[00:28:30] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I think you're giving a lot of people way, way, way more credit. And you're not giving yourself enough. And that you're like, I sat with this, I considered it. I wrote a really thoughtful and they were like,

[00:28:47] Anna Toonk: Y Y

[00:28:48] Nina Endrst: yeah, I get it. I mean, I have certain things like that, you know, like we all have the shit that sets us off. And I don't know. I wish I knew, you know what I mean? Like, why is it that, that my brain gets hung up on, but not that you know, it's like, Uh, I don't, I don't think we choose these things, but I think like, I think there's a bit of vulnerability and clarity as well.

Cause generally if you're going to, if you're going to be clear in communication, you know, if you're going to ask for what you want, if you're going to either be clear to someone about business and maybe money's involved and that comes with some feelings, or you're going to be clear to someone you're interested in that, that's what you're interested in or whatever.

Like there's vulnerability, you know? Right.

[00:29:30] Anna Toonk: Just hearing you say that because it's no seriously, like my eyes started to water. I was like, oh Jesus. I'm getting period.

[00:29:39] Nina Endrst: I can see you're like,

[00:29:41] Anna Toonk: so fucking, absolutely

[00:29:45] Nina Endrst: on the nose. Yeah. That, I think often our frustration is like, I put myself out there and you just went like in response, you know, when you just are like, I don't go to it or what, you know, like.

I mean, and, and it's so hard. I'd rather have someone ignore me. Same. I, well, at least I think we know kind of what to do with that.

[00:30:10] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I really would then just this like, fucking, I don't even know messy. I don't mind messy when it's honest, but what I think, I, what I, what really grinds my gears is what I perceive or what I think is being dishonest about something.

That's like, how do you, what else do you need to know?

[00:30:35] Nina Endrst: Right, right, right, right. I don't love when someone's like protesting that they don't get it or it's not clear, but it feels like a stall technique that makes me

[00:30:50] Anna Toonk: that's that's a lot of work stuff. Don't you think? Like, absolutely.

[00:30:54] Nina Endrst: Oh, big guy, like

[00:30:58] Anna Toonk: Canberra.

[00:31:00] Nina Endrst: Oh, oh my God. Well,

[00:31:03] Anna Toonk: I sent a woman like 45 invoices one time and she was like, I just don't. I'm like, you're 50 something years old. You are like, what? Which, which I've sent it, PayPal. I've sent it fucking email. I've sent it Zelle, like click the button. I had to walk through it and she's still bucked it

[00:31:22] Nina Endrst: up.

And when people are like that, I'm just like, I, well, with a lot of things that I just sort of feel a bit gobsmacked by, you know, I'm both like, how do you go through life? Like, take me through your day. How do you wake up and like get outside and like, not get hit by a car. If you can't get all your home, like how to open an email, read it and execute a task.

Like. And again, I'm not really saying that. I don't mean that as bitterly as it sounds. I'm Jane the neighbor. No, I'm yeah, I'm in the neighborhood and I'm definitely like, but I'm saying it to your face and going, like how I'm curious to understand, but don't you think. I guess so, I mean, I was fucking Jimmy, I think.

Yeah. I mean, well, one, I want to understand, like, how do you, like, how do you go through life? And then two, I think I'm a little jealous, like as someone who I think wastes a lot of my own time and energy, trying to be really conscientious and trying to be really aware of others and being really mindful of how much like energy I'm asking of others or effort, or really tries to keep that at a minimum that I'm like, what is it like to just not give a fuck?

You know, what's it like to ask someone to basically send you 40 invoices? What's that like? I mean, I would never, you know,

[00:32:45] Anna Toonk: never, I would know, but I would never choose it like me. I, at the end of the day, once my fire has settled and this is my nature, like I get real mad or just really annoyed. And then I land on.

Obviously, this person is struggling with something, obviously, you know, I do yeah. Land on compassion, right? Like, like someone parked in the handicap spot the other day. And I was like, you're a real piece of shit. Like you are clearly not handicapped. Someone could certainly need that on a busy weekend day.

And you're just, you don't give a fuck. And I would really, I just can't imagine a world where you didn't see the handicapped sign. It's pretty clear. Yeah. So you're making a choice to disregard and that entitlement also just makes me mad.

[00:33:41] Nina Endrst: They could also have an invisible disability,

[00:33:43] Anna Toonk: but they don't have the sign on the car.

[00:33:45] Nina Endrst: Oh, yeah. Well then maybe the most people, even with an N in a, I didn't

[00:33:50] Anna Toonk: see the principal, I didn't see the check out the car '

[00:33:53] Nina Endrst: cause I definitely, oh, I've seen a very able bodied person get out of a car and, and been like, and then had to remember people have invisible. Yes, no, that's a

[00:34:02] Anna Toonk: very good point.

There was not assigned to be seen and people all the time and I'm like,

[00:34:08] Nina Endrst: yeah, I've seen people do that, but you know, I've seen people, confront people getting out of cars and been like, why do you have that? Like, duh, just cause essentially they're not in a wheelchair, you know? Yeah. And I'm like, can you imagine, I can't even imagine that, you know, like, come from, like, this is where I think also too, like we've, we've like missed the point with clarity as a society where it's like, people have confused.

I think like call-outs with clarity as well. And it's like, Just sort of yelling at someone or just sort of saying you're this or whatever, like doesn't seem to work as well. Well, the

[00:34:52] Anna Toonk: goal, like you gaining clarity for what? Right. And yeah. If you're just yelling at somebody, which have I done, I, yeah, but it's

[00:35:03] Nina Endrst: oh yeah, yeah.

[00:35:04] Anna Toonk: It's it makes you feel like shit, you know? And even like, after the, this is not funny, but I'm laughing because it's so absurd. The, a woman in my bar class was talking about how she lives a couple of pounds over. We were talking about like moving eventually. And I was like, I just really can't take like how I'm in Brooklyn one second.

And then I'm literally in like the deep south and it's so confusing. And she's like, yeah, I, I live on a farm or whatever. And this guy, when the election was having. Had we had a Biden find out and he would drive by and honk his horn and be like, you call me bitch. It's like every day she

[00:35:48] Nina Endrst: said, can you imagine that you imagine now?

[00:35:51] Anna Toonk: But like, when I, what I was going to say is what I thought I was being really clear what I thought I was really clear on during that absolute shit show that I prayed to whoever we don't have to suffer through Oregon, even though our country is still going back to the like stone age. But is that what I thought I was being clear?

I was just really mad and spewing that. And so it wasn't clear. It was. Anger.

[00:36:29] Nina Endrst: it's funny because something that I think is very cool in your household and the way you're raising Milo is with emotions and a free range of emotions. And y'all really let him be sensitive. And, you know, like ways really invested. I think in being, um, a man who was also intense with, in touch with his feelings.

And I think it's cool that he also gets a mom who's in touch with anger, you know? Cause, cause I think also women have, it's been a struggle for women to be allowed to be angry, you know, but I think some of the truth as someone who also gets really fired up about things as well is like, even though my.

Fire anger or, you know, whatever was justified, you know, it does make it impossible or it's very hard to be really angry and clear. I think it's almost

[00:37:26] Anna Toonk: impossible by the way. I'd like to just clarify that I don't have. Get mad

[00:37:31] Nina Endrst: toward him, but anyway, oh, no, it's not like, yeah, but I have

[00:37:35] Anna Toonk: more strain and I have extreme road rage in front of him, which is not appropriate, but I do.

And I'm always like fucking motherfucker. And he's like, it's okay, mom. And I'm

[00:37:44] Nina Endrst: like, but it's also like that. You'll just say, like this happened and it made me angry. Like I think also women are really predisposed to like making excuses or being like this happened and it was okay. Or, you know, like kind of excusing it.

And I think you just like name it more than anything versus like you're walking around. Yeah. I mean more

[00:38:04] Anna Toonk: like ways like my butt and I'm like, Nope, I'm mad and you should be too.

[00:38:09] Nina Endrst: Yeah. No. And it's funny because he'll talk about it and be like, yeah. And I was feeling kind of like, cool. And then she like pointed out and I was like, yeah, that is, you know, I'm like,

[00:38:19] Anna Toonk: yeah.

My w someone I now think is wackadoodle, but once you've called me the grim Reaper, she's like, you're kind of like, people think their lives are going okay. And then you're like, what about all this stuff? That

[00:38:34] Nina Endrst: that's really funny because it's sort of true, but I'm like, how can we give it a more positive spin, greater good, because

[00:38:41] Anna Toonk: you, this part of you dies, but then you.

Be born and to a new, more true.

[00:38:47] Nina Endrst: You're more like, listen, I just want it. I think you're more like the grim Reaper that's sitting like eating popcorn and you're like, you could go about it that way or join me over here where there's snacks. Yeah. Like you're liking it's real cool. You know,

[00:39:02] Anna Toonk: but the thing you said, some very thing is so true about, I do think it's really difficult or maybe impossible to be clear when you're extremely angry.

And where have you felt, like how have you felt like you've grown in, in terms of that, like in relationships, has that been, or have you worked on that or have you yes.

[00:39:26] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I mean, I never was someone who was like, ragey like would explode. I would shut down and, and I would disappear, you know, I would just, eventually it's like, people's like Hertz would build up and I would just be like, bye bye.

You know, like, so for me, I would say in general, it wasn't just with anger that I had to learn how to be, you know, clear am an ex expression. I think I had to, well, one, I had to learn how to not just intellectualize feelings, I had to learn how to feel them. And when you first start feeling stuff and really feeling it in your body and like, you know, giving up disassociating, like it was re I was very, I think, emotionally deregulated because I was just like, whoa, I feel so much.

And I don't know what, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to, I don't know what, I don't know how to do this, you know? Cause I was just like, I feel so much about everything. Like. And did not feel clear, you know, at all. And it was like, I had to go through this process of learning, like, okay, you feel the thing that can be a little deregulating sometimes, or it can be overwhelming or it can just be a million different things I had to learn for me that was usually not the time to take action.

And then if I could sit with it and build it, my ability to sit with it and just be like, this sucks or I'm sad, or that really hurt my feelings or whatever the processing, let me get clear as to what I needed to say in order to stay calm. You don't like to either have my own back or whatever, whether it was problem-solve or whatever I usually had to have.

I had to like spew a lot of stuff, like, especially like when I was still in television and you would get these emails from clients that were just fucking foul, you know, and you would want to be like, listen, you entitled piece of shit. You know? Like you would want, you know, you wanted, you would want to respond and be like, the only reason you sent me this email is because your company is going to get circle checked, but let's be real.

Like you're a fucking idiot, you know, like you would want to just end. So, and you obviously like can email a client. Even when you're in that place, like you just can't do it. Like ego stuff is so fragile. And if you're trying to get a project across the finish line, like the last thing you want is like an ego delay.

So I would have to step away and be like, really want to murder that person. I'd be like, I hear you, Anna, but don't think that's on the table right now. You don't like, I would have to kind of wrestle it out, have some imaginary arguments, maybe a shower argument, you know, in my head. And then I could sit down and be like, I understand if I'm understanding the tone of your email correctly.

You're very upset. That's also where I think I developed my habit of like trolling of being like, I think sometimes like the way, like, I think my anger would make me feel so out of control of like. I don't know, maybe disrespected or being like, who the fuck are you or whatever that I would be nine started this way of like, how can I be like angry and a bit of an intellectual, you know, and be like, if I'm understanding your tone correctly, Karen, your anger.

You know, like, and that became a way to have me being also very clear of just like, you're not just going to abuse me. Like you're not just going to be mad or just like yell at me. We're either going to like, resolve, like, we're going to either figure this out or I'm going to disengage, you know, like that became a way that I grew.

And then I think, because like, in my twenties and thirties, like I was probably one of the better communicators of like my friends and peers. I think I plateaued for a little bit and started realizing as I got older that I, in interpersonal relationships, I had to learn how to communicate a little bit differently in order to get clarity as well.

You know, of. Not making assumptions, not feeding my own old stories or narratives, but getting a little bit better at, you know, giving people the benefit of the doubt. And as not assuming the worst, but assuming that, you know, we all have good intentions and going, like, I don't think you meant it this way, but this hurt my feelings or whatever, in order to just gave and get clear about like, what was happening, you know?

And I don't know about you, but there's been so many times with a friend or, or a lover, you know, like con whenever there was conflict, even my own mother, you know, we're, I've gone in so sure about what the problem was of like, like essentially boiling down to I'm the victim and they're the perpetrator, but like, you know, and then it's like, there's this whole other side.

I didn't know. You know, where, like my mom started getting really in like, No chill about me not having kids and being like, well, since you're not going to have kids and you'll know that I have kids and stuff, and I finally was like, can you relax? Like my God, you know? And she's like, oh, I was trying to be supportive.

I was trying to link, let you know. That's okay. And I was like, not how it's coming across. And it's a little jarring every time you say it. And she was like, oh yeah, it was barren. Right. We'll send you well, since you've killed my dream of grandmother hood Jesus, I'm like, go talk. I will talk to my brother, my God, you have another shot.

He's younger go after him. You know? But, um, that was also, I think, because of also what we do, like. I don't really think of myself as a know it all, but I know that I can definitely fall into that. And I think a lot of us can tell ourselves, we know what's up, you know, both to feel safe and to feel like we know what the fuck is happening in life in general.

But, um, also to like prevent ourselves from getting hurt by pushing for that clarity,

[00:45:30] Anna Toonk: stepping away is so hard,

[00:45:33] Nina Endrst: heard so hard.

[00:45:37] Anna Toonk: Necessary, but it's so hard. It's so hard. Yeah. It's an art that I'm still working to working on, but I, what I usually do is respond immediately and then circle back,

[00:45:51] Nina Endrst: which I think has also, I think I did that for a while as well, but I think then it's so funny.

Like for me, when I go into therapy sometimes, and I'm like, oh, I've noticed like, if I just sit tight, like it goes a bit better. She's like, welcome. It's called like processing. You know, I was like, cause I think like we all feel a sense of urgency that I don't know. Is there, you know, like a lot of the people, I mean, it is a bit different with business, obviously like in clients and you're like, your money's involved.

And so you do want to, like, you don't want to just like sit on things for days and stuff like that. Like, you do have to be kind of, you don't get to decide that timeline as much as I think you do in your like relationships and things, but people are also like, sometimes I want to be like, when people are like in my DMS, like at 11 o'clock at night and are like, how do I book you?

And like, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, this is such a fault urgency being created. And like, how do you think that that like kicks us off, like on a good foot?

[00:47:09] Anna Toonk: I think it's easier for me to be. You know, obviously I get, I get annoyed, but I get less and less. I take it less, less personally with clients than I ever have. But with friends and things, I feel like I have to, to really give myself a minute because I, I don't know. I guess I just make it mean something about me that it, that it doesn't mean, you know, and that in stepping back and seeing, asking myself a couple of questions before I respond is just, it makes me feel more supported by myself instead of like, you know, trying to, I don't know, just I, can I even hear what they're really saying or what they're trying to say, if there's that immediacy or that false sense?

No, I can't because I'm just, I'm, I'm hopping. I can't really hear

[00:48:09] Nina Endrst: anything. Do you think like, for me, I think something I've learned is when I'm hopped up, if I respond from that place, it generally doesn't resolve the hopped up at ness and then kind of generally. Exactly. And then generally, also too, the person can come back with like, what is happening?

Like, or why are you mad? You know what I mean? Like, I feel sometimes to link when I've responded from the hop that plays one, I didn't feel better, you know, like, which is ultimately what we care about, you know? And too, like it just made it get worse, you know? Like that's the thing I've noticed that. I had a point with a friend and I was, I mean, I would like to think I was in the right.

I mean, she probably thinks she was in the right. So like, who knows, but I was, she had gone through a hard time and I was starting to have a bit of an empathy fatigue about two years into her, a hard time. And I was like, I need you to start kind of being like more of a person, you know, like in more of a friend kind of in have a little bit more, basically anything that happened in her life, if you didn't sort of let her off the hook, you know?

Yeah. And so then we were gonna, uh, work together on something and she was sort of being shitty. And I was like, you know what? I don't think this is a good idea. Like, I can be cool with you as a friend. I can't business-wise, I just don't have chill there about it, you know? And she just was like, like basically it was like, I can't believe you're being such a jerk.

You know, like I can't believe you're being so mean and type of stuff. And. The red I saw, like, I was like, I was already at like a test now I'm a new volcano, you know? And I, I knew what I, I deleted her number for like 48 hours. So I couldn't respond because I was like, I'm going to go nuclear. I'm so mad.

And I don't think, I mean, I think it was a, it was a couple of things I think I probably should have spoken up sooner. You know, like I think there was a couple of things things had been building. And I think that she also was a very selfish person, you know, that was just sorta like, but it's about me, you know?

So I think there was a couple things at play here that made it worse, but I'm like, it was a time though that I was so proud of myself that I didn't like go from that place, you know, because. I think I would just more than anything. It's like, she and I still don't speak, like we're not friends. That was the end of our friendship for me being like, you know, you're kind of stuck right about this, you know, but, um, I think I would have also felt, but I feel okay with that.

I feel like things shook out the way they were supposed to. However, uh, or I trust that. However, I knew if I had gone nuclear, I think I would feel. Shame around that. Yeah.

[00:51:17] Anna Toonk: I only have regret about one interaction that I, you know, me, I like to be like, I'll ask Anna, like, can I say, can I send an email to this person and just tell them exactly what I think of them?

And she's like, why waste your wisdom? And I'm like, dammit, do you want me to follow up emails? I want to write dear I'm circling back.

[00:51:40] Nina Endrst: Uh, circling back to November 20 seventeens email. Let's pick up where we left off. So thought of a few more points. I also have so many

[00:51:48] Anna Toonk: fake fights, like in my head, in the shower with people I haven't even met yet.

[00:51:52] Nina Endrst: Like, oh, that's really funny. I think about people. So for me, I. Uh, something that it has been hard for me is that often with people that probably weren't a good idea for me or relationships that didn't serve me, the clarity didn't come until much later. And so, while I understand why you want to send the email and be like, Hey, just in case you were curious or wondered, you are a piece of shit, you know, like, I, I could not be more on your side in terms of understanding the desire.

But I think that kind of is my question, like, what do you do with that? You know, because we get a lot of clarity in hindsight, we get so much clarity. After we've like disengaged with people, but you do want to be almost like send them, you know, like a post-mortem and be like, I have notes if

[00:52:43] Anna Toonk: you're, if you want to know, I don't care.

If you want to know this is where I've netted out. Yeah.

[00:52:47] Nina Endrst: Actually, yeah. Let me be like fully honest. I do not care. If you want to know for my piece, I need you to know you to

[00:52:54] Anna Toonk: at least have this sitting in your inbox so that, you know, I did it with one of my friends. I feel like, or my old friends that I feel like we talked about on this podcast once about, and maybe vaguely.

And I, I said to her what I had to say, and she was like, okay, well, I don't really see like where we go from here. And I was like, oh, because I'm clear about an issue I have in our relationship now. You're like, not only are you not acknowledging that, but you're going to be like, okay, well, I guess that's the end of the road.

And it was like, I was like, oh, okay. That's I was just in your wedding in Greece. Sure. I guess that's where, so, okay. Well, um, by like, it was so bizarre, I don't really feel the need to clarify things like that and be like, because it was just. But that's

[00:53:46] Nina Endrst: also a form of clarity. Yeah, totally. Basically being like, I don't know how to come back from this.

It couldn't be clearer. It was just like, oh yeah.

[00:53:55] Anna Toonk: I mean, we're not a match. Exactly. But the people who have like, been really deeply manipulative to me, those are the ones that I'm like you mother fucker. I

[00:54:05] Nina Endrst: agree. I agree or people who

[00:54:09] Anna Toonk: were, I know, I want you to know that I know that you're a manipulator aha,

[00:54:14] Nina Endrst: or a thing for me too.

I think, well, I've had a, I've done a lot. I don't want to brag y'all but I've like, tangoed a lot with narcissists and panic

[00:54:25] Anna Toonk: attacks and your attraction, Dennard, dazzling do,

[00:54:32] Nina Endrst: uh, don't hate y'all don't hate. Um, we're just like everyone else. Um, but I th you know, narcissism comes with like a F uh, ha half the dose of delusion.

And I think I get like delusion hangovers, and I want to be like, okay, I mean, I'm not proud of this. And like, this is between us. Like, so no one, no one tells anyone else our circle of trust, but it's like, I want to like decimate them, you know, like there's something that's in some part of my process of letting go of someone and I think letting go of a dynamic and forgiving myself or engaging in it, I usually want to sort of decimate them and be like, you thought you were this lies, you know?

And like, I almost want to do a Maury Povich thing. It'd be like you said that you were, and I'm like, we're not with receipts. Exactly. I just want to like, you know, like, and I'm like, I don't know what I think. I mean, and there's a couple of guys I've done that with, and it was a good lesson. And then I, it left me.

It didn't do anything. I didn't feel great after it, you know, like I felt good in the sense of like, it can feel good to say to people who've maybe not been honest with you. Like you weren't honest with me. And I know that, you know, like it felt good in that regard, I think, to like, feel free of having to uphold a false reality.

But on the other hand, I'm like, that was a huge fucking waste of my energy. No

[00:56:03] Anna Toonk: one, no clarity really comes other than I just

[00:56:06] Nina Endrst: wasted my energy.

[00:56:08] Anna Toonk: I'm like, oh, I already knew. Right. Yeah. Because you're not in it anymore. So I used to, I usually write the things and I, then I delete them and I do feel of release when I do that.

And like, okay. Also the clarity of. I was a, it was a less than I was meant to learn, you know, and I needed to, I needed to have this shit person in my life and, you know, Milo asked me yesterday, people were good. And I was like, well, sit down, let's sit down, sir. I know. I said,

[00:56:44] Nina Endrst: you're like, I'm not the person.

[00:56:45] Anna Toonk: I'm not, because I said, I used to think that most people were, but I don't know anymore. And I, and I don't think that they're, most people are bad, but I'm just like, jury's out because there's just a lot of bad things happening. And I know that things, aren't, people, behaviors, aren't people, but when you stack them up and it becomes, you know, a trend, isn't it?

The person. Yeah. Like how do you separate so much? Shitty or manipulative or whatever, you know, abusive behavior from the person. Like that's also the clarity that I've gotten is like, maybe they don't need to be bad because like, what is that really like, I don't need, I don't need to do that in order to feel better about myself.

But what I do need is to say they're bad for.

[00:57:41] Nina Endrst: I mean, yes. I mean, I have been thinking, I've been thinking about this in general, a lot about like, what is our resistance? And this is a whole other podcast episode and we're starting to wrap up, but I've been thinking about like, what is our resistance about labeling someone bad?

You know? And just being like they're bad. I mean, we see it in the media, like all the time, but I mean, like even Cosby's fucking convictions got overturned, you know, like it's w w what does it take to just be like, this is a bad person.

[00:58:11] Anna Toonk: Them being like, nah, it has, can not have nothing to do with women. It has to, or has to be done to a white guy, and then it'll be bad.

[00:58:20] Nina Endrst: It's just like, you know, that all these stories with scammers. All this stuff. And I'm like, what is our hesitant sometimes to say? And it was my therapist once needed to switch, you know, had texted me and was like, do you have flex flexibility next week or something? And jokingly, I had said to her, like, sure, but you have to answer a question for me, you know, about human nature.

And she was like, fine, you know? And I was like, why do people fall for scams? And she was like, oh, for fuck sake. And I was like, you're going to have to pick an easier one, you know? But she was like, because believing the lie is less painful than believing the truth, you know? And I think about that a lot in terms of like, I know a lot of people who've done bad things that assume they're a bad person, but they're, I think they're actually a good person who did bad things, like all of that different stuff.

And I don't, but it is interesting when you think of, especially in regards to like trauma, abuse, learned behavior and things like that, that like people can be doing. Like the best they can and it's still not great, you know? Like what do we do about that? How do you have clarity about that? How do you know?

And I think it is as simple as link kind of trusting your personal thing of like, they're not good for me. Like, regardless of like where this falls on the spectrum, or if they're good or bad, or if, you know, they arrive at the pearly gates, God goes, no, no, no, you're bad. You know, or yes. Yeah. Turn around, you know, you have to go to the hill shoot or something like Willy

[00:59:50] Anna Toonk: Wonka style.

[00:59:52] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how I think it all works. That's the afterlife. Um, in a nutshell, feeling vulnerable, sharing that with you. I don't know.

I don't believe it's real, but I hate that. I said in a recorded medium that I called it a documentary. I know books are not documentaries. I just want to say, I'm glad to great for the record. I'm glad

[01:00:14] Anna Toonk: we gave you a chance to correct yourself. Nobody knows.

[01:00:20] Nina Endrst: Yep. Yeah. It keeps me awake at night, but I'm glad all of you did not notice that.

How do we wrap up today? I think one of the gifts you can give yourself is to figure out what your version of clarity is it. Do you feel it physically? Is it mentally? What is your practice? Usually for me, it's like making lists, you know, like that's a way, like for me, it often it needs to be visual and tactile that that's going to help me feel clear about something.

So. What is your guidance to people? Yeah.

[01:00:50] Anna Toonk: I echo that, I think find your own version. And I would say trying to be in a space that you feel is clear to feel clear, right? If that is even just a room that has been cleaned out, if that's going to outside and going for a walk, if that, like what, what is clear to you to find what that feels like and looks like, and then go to there and participate in something that, you know, leads you down.

That path of clarity for me, it's body always and mind, you know, that they all sing together when I'm doing that type of work. So thanks for coming on the clarity journey. Y'all.

[01:01:42] Nina Endrst: We appreciate it. And I don't remember, never remember our sheds. You will home. I'm like I could tell y'all. Ooh, next episode is a victim.

I know. Same I

[01:01:59] Anna Toonk: already, yes. I have many notes. Hi, bye.

[01:02:04] Nina Endrst: Bye.

[01:02:10] Anna Toonk: That's all for

[01:02:11] Nina Endrst: today's episode. If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for advice episode, please join our membership community@howtobehumanpod.com. Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.