Sometimes, you never have those moments where you just realise, "Oh, being alive is really weird." Like you almost catch yourself, because you get busy in your day, and you're like, "I don't do taxes, whatever." Like you're late for something. You just get sucked into just like the, for lack of a better word, I guess the rat race.

So if we don't know where our body is, how do we know where we are? It's such a big thing with the embodied movement, which I really push embodied cognition. A brain does not function inside a black skull, dark, nothing going on, without inputs from the body, from the sense receptors, from everything that's going on in the environment. Our body is actually feeding up to our brain, but our experience of self, do I move well? Do I feel creaky? Do I say, "Oh, my back's killing me?" Or do I walk with a sense of power in my posture? And I love what you said there is if you don't know the schema of your body, whether you're deadlifting or trying to be more confident, you're in trouble because you don't know where the right things are. How do we manage tension or apply tension appropriately in your experience?

Yeah, I think there's two questions. There's one is how do we do that? And then how do we apply it? So I think like one thing that I do all the time now, which I've just found to be the most effective approach is give someone the experience of what they want and then teach them how they can keep or reproduce that experience. I think the more you learn about, again, the body, and it's funny how these things transcend culture. We know, for example, that your postural system is governed by your serotonergic system, and you can trace that system, a third of a billion years back in the past, because you can look at certain animals and you can see how that same, neurophysiological relationship governs their posture and also governs the level of serotonin.

What do you see in a body that you're also seeing in their life? Hello and welcome. Today I'm joined by my guest, Tom Waldron, who is a movement specialist. He works with biomechanics and all cool things with the body. Now this is really interesting because Tom shares an interest in the body like I do, but in a much more, detailed way. But we were talking recently and I was absolutely intrigued with his work about how working with the body changes how we experience life and do things in life. We're going to get into this. A big thing is if you've got a lot of challenges going on mentally, getting into the body is going to be a massive Massive benefit for you. So we shall unpack. Tom, welcome to the show. It's good to see you, mate.

Thanks for having me Sam, thank you.

Cool. Okay. So give us a little context around what do you do that's different with people that that's movement orientated that really helps them connect with their body?

I would say probably with that the main thing, and you could even say this is the difference between potentially an instructor and a coach, is just initially finding out why the person has come to see you in the first place, and that's definitely not unique to me by any means. A good therapist will do that, or a good clinician will do that, but I suppose the first thing is finding out what that person's goals are, because that's the most important thing, and then Respectfully, with my background, if I feel like, you know what, you would benefit from this a bit more, or benefit from this a bit more, we can have that discussion and then move forward, with some interventions that would help with that as well, if that makes sense. a bit of what they want, and then a bit of what I think they also need.

Yeah, really nice. That's a nice way of kind of meeting the middle, isn't it? figuring out what that person's requirements are, what their pain points are, and understanding their version of the world, plus your, knowledge overlaying, which is, really, really nice. It's so interesting with that body stuff. I'm an S& C trainer as well now, as a psychotherapist, as a mindset coach, and the more I work with my own physiology, my own body, and the more I work with other people's, the more I see that, If we are looking at human performance, if we're looking at mental being and emotional well being, we really, really want to be including the body. And it's often been a secondary thing, hasn't it? That I'll do a workout after work or I'm too busy to exercise. and I would say, actually, there's so much data and knowledge now that says if you're not exercising, if you're not physically well, Your business isn't going to go well, your health is probably going to be damaged in some way and your relationships are impacted. So it has this whole kind of cascade of influence, doesn't it? Whether it's negative or positive. Now, what are you seeing when someone comes to you with a problem? I can only imagine they come Oh, I've got a sore shoulder or my back's killing me. one of the classics. What do you see in a body that you're also seeing in their life? What do you notice in those parallels?

Yeah, I think one of the things can definitely be, let's say if we just talk about pain for a moment. I think at this point, if you're not addressing any psychosomatic or lifestyle aspects to someone's pain problem, it doesn't really matter where the pain actually is, then you're probably on some level not finishing the job. So I think, one thing that's always good is you're always trying to maintain some form of retention. motivation with people. So obviously if someone comes in with a painful shoulder, one of the first things you want to do is try and reduce or minimise the symptoms. So they get what they want, and then along the way you also might help them with what they need to make those positive changes longer lasting. So for example, I guess a more obvious example, from my experience, has been lower back pain. so one of, probably the second or third question I'll ask someone these days is, how's your sleep? These days, how are you sleeping? So quality of sleep and also quantity. I'm definitely not a sleep expert. I've listened to people who are sleep experts. but there's definitely enough, research to convince me that yeah, if someone is undersleep. That's going to really ramp up, their amygdala and that's going to increase their pain sensitivity. Not that they're sensitive as a person, just literally the sensitivity of the nervous system. And so addressing things like rest is also really important. I used to say tension, I'm always changing my, dialogue around tension. I used to think tension was bad. but as tension means many things. You can talk about the tension of the connective tissue, or you can talk about literal, psychological tension. And so I think of that, maybe physiologically, we're also fine tuning the tension on a level. whether that's actually reducing or increasing tension in certain areas. and I think that does have, a direct influence on, their psychology as well, how they feel about their back afterwards.

yeah, that's cool, isn't it? I understand about tensional forces, having, taught yoga for many years, got into, different gyms, learned about, heavy lifting, learning about torque, as in T O R Q U E, so how to create torque in the body and tension. And tensional forces in the body are appropriate. So if you are going to do a deadlift and you've got no core activation, no glutes really working, you're probably going to load your erectors, erectors, you're going to damage your lower back, you're going to have problems. Application of tension, I think it's really skillful, both in the gym, in the boardroom, and perhaps in life, because if we aren't reflexive enough, then we can either be a soft, gentle individual, or we're too hard and too edgy, and I find this, way of being in, the 21st century, that if we are able to flex, we've got really good things and skills available to us. there's a time to stand up to someone and there's a time to be gentle and we want to know where and how. And I think the body is such a good physical experience of this, am I holding tension in my shoulders because I'm just stressed to hell with what's going on? Or am I creating tension in my chest muscles because I'm about to do a chest press? So I think this conscious, deliberate application of tension is a really skillful arm. Then the question goes, how does a person do that? People say to me, so how do we do that? that's always the figure out question. So how do people, how do our bodies, how do we manage tension or apply tension appropriately in your experience?

Yeah, I think there's two questions. There's one is how do we do that? and then how do we apply it? So I think like one thing that I do all the time now, which I've just found to be the most effective approach is give someone the experience of what they want and then teach them how they can keep or reproduce that experience. So I think when I'm back in the day, I would very much be like, okay, so it's this and this and you explain the thing. And it might be right, it probably was wrong sometimes as well, but the idea is it doesn't really mean anything unless someone has a literal experience in their nervous system of what it feels like, for example, to have a quote unquote tension free shoulder. and then you can give them the, the steps on how they can recreate that experience. So it's funny, again, language is interesting, how we use language. So I, obviously, I even just said tension free shoulder. And in reality, you're never tension free, so the collagen fibres that are in the matrix of certain connective tissues, they're always under tension. Even if you're quote unquote relaxed, there's still a level of tension there, they're never under slack. So if you want to actually have the experience of not feeling tension, it's about fine tuning the right level of tension for your body in that moment. And so for example, that would be, then how would you get to the practical aspect of that? sometimes people have these preconceived ideas that oh, before I do this movement, I have to pre activate this muscle or, when I'm doing the movement, I have to keep these muscles short and these ones long. And the issue of that is obviously if you're going to move the body, things have to change. So you have to have different neurological impulses. You need to have different, literally different levels of tension going through your connective tissue. And then you have different, muscle, cells going on and off as well. I think on that level it's also addressing, are there any preconceived ideas about the body that this person might have, either if they're also a professional and they've been taught a certain way. or if they've gone to certain classes and they've just been taught, you can't lift your leg until you brace your core first, for example. And I think, they're all, they're not bad things, you're not going to break someone if you teach them that. but, you might be reinforcing patterns of excessive tension over time. to, then they get to the point in present day where they feel like they can't move their shoulder a certain way. or they can, but it just feels uncomfortable. my big thing is always starting with what's the experience you want, and then it's doing a few, sometimes it's essentially like little magic tricks to give them that experience. that experience is inherently always going to be temporary, because most short term change is neurologically driven anyway. But then how can you give someone the tools so then they can build that experience for themselves long term? Does, am I making sense? Or am I just rambling?

that's really, really good. I'm quite metaphorically driven. My mind sees things in metaphors, and I'm imagining, a violinist, or a guitar player. Now, I've never played either, but I've seen them. And they're really cool when they're strung nicely. So I can imagine, looking at the strings of a guitar or a violin, and if they are loose, you try and pluck them, there's going to make no sound, or it's going to be terrible. Or if they're too tight, you pluck them and they could break. Same with a tennis racket, if that's a better metaphor for someone, floppy strings, the ball is going to be all over the place, too hard and you might get too much bounce. in terms of tensional forces, I love what you've said there, create the experience that you want, and I'm interested to get an example of that in a second, but then give them the tools, because if we, to keep it very physiological for this moment, in the S& C, domain. There is a, still a large contingent that you've really braced your core very strongly, say doing a heavy score or heavy deadlift or pushing a heavy sled, something like that. And I know some people in the other movement field who challenged that. They don't say you don't brace your core, but they say you're relaxed under tension. And there are these opposing in a way ideologies. But if we think about practical, you don't generally tense your body to lift something up. You simply lift it up. So I guess the sweet spot is how do we get to a place where it's so unconsciously Elegant that our body works without becoming unsafe. So can you gimme an example? Let's take a deadlift. So any one of my listeners who goes to the gym and picks some stuff up in a deadlift move, we all know him. You want to protect your back, you want to hinge nicely. How might you help that person have a better experience rather than, err locked on tension or they're too floppy and and potentially damage themselves? How could you take us through that example of experience and then a tool to work with them?

so that's a really good, I like that exercise. So a really good way that I use for myself and also for a lot of clients is So let's say the goal is, I want to, pick that weight off the floor in whichever form they want to do it. Whether they want to hip hinge more or they want to feel like they're just more stable. One of the first things I'll do is literally give them an experience, which you can do very easily, of where actually are your hip joints located. So in your body, where does the femur head actually meet your ATA and it? And it doesn't mean you suddenly got to go into this big anatomy class and here's the thing and the thing, and here are the ligaments. It's not so much that it's literally just do you even know where your joints are located in your body? And the hip joints are normally a really good example of that because even with professionals, if you ask them like, take your index fingers and point on your body, where are your hip joints? People almost inevitably either point to their ASISs, their hip bones, or they point to their greater trochanters, which is either too high or too out to the side. And what's really interesting about that is, when you ask someone a question like, again, where's your shoulder, where's your spine, where's your hip joints, and then they point to where they think it is, they're already giving you a clue of what their body schema is. So it's like my perception of where my thigh bone meets my pelvic bone is here, whether it's accurate or not accurate. So one of the first things I'll do, it takes 30 seconds, is I'll just give them, and I don't even touch them, I can tell them how to find their hip joints. And then once they've actually located, oh, my hip joints are here, they're actually usually much more narrow and central to the body than what I may have thought they were before. And then I'll get them just to move their hip joints from that position. And for many people, if that's the first time they've actually had a cognitive, clear understanding of, oh wow, okay, my theme head's actually here, and that's the place I primarily want to be moving from if I want to be picking, a bar off the floor. That, without me having to give any cues, or any sort of instruction, it instantly changes how they organize themselves. One of the things that I'm really into, and I'm not above in any way giving cues or giving clear instructions, but what I just find really interesting is if you give the brain, a clear, simplistic sense of Oh, okay, here is said bone or said joint, it instantly organises itself in a, quote unquote, better way, in a more efficient way, or in the way that person wants to be organised. So then when they do the movement, they're like, Oh, okay, cool. And then even then you can still give cues afterwards. I can still say, Oh, imagine that you're dropping your pelvis down onto a chair or anything like that, some sort of external cue. But I always start with, let's just change your experience of your body. And a good place to start is fundamentally, if you don't know where a joint is, something simple like a hip joint, how do you know if you're moving it properly or even moving it potentially at all? Does that make

It makes a lot of sense. I love that. Understanding the schema of the body. Yeah, where it is. and this is a thing I see in human performance work, whether we're in the physical domain or the psychological emotional domain. That if you don't know what's going on, it's really hard to deal with it because it's an abstraction. Yeah, it's like I'm really stressed. What does that even mean? Or I'm struggling with my deadlift. What does that actually mean? We need to get specific. And we need to be accurate, because if you're not deadlifting or hinging, as of course the deadlift movement is, from the right place, you'll hinge from another place, which implicitly might be a physiological or physical problem, and, and I would also say psychological, because, as I explained to you, Tom, and all my regular listeners, there is such a crossover between our thinking, feeling self and our physical, moving self. One is influencing the other all the time. So if we don't know where our body is, how do we know where we are? It's, such a big thing with the embodied movement, which I really, push, embodied cognition. A brain does not function inside a black skull, dark, nothing going on, without inputs from the body, from the sense receptors, from everything that's going on in the environment. Our body is actually feeding up to our brain, and then, this is a longer debate about what the brain and mind is, but, but our experience of self, do I move well? Do I feel creaky? do I say, Oh, my back's killing me? Or do I walk with a sense of power in my posture? And I love what you said there is if you don't know the schema of your body, Whether you're deadlifting or trying to be more confident, you're in trouble because you don't know where the right things are. So that's super, super helpful. yeah, really helpful. Thank you.

Was gonna say of that as well. it's almost because that was, that's a really nice way of putting it, I think like it's also fundamentally, if you are, if you're helping someone moving to move better. It's just about really helping them relate to the environment better. So you're relating to the chair better, you're relating to the floor, you're relating to that bar that you want to pick up. So it's very much I've got this physical thing, and it's made up of many different types of tissues, and the geometry changes all over the place. But if I've just got a simple sense of oh okay, this is a point, like again, let's say the hip joint, this is a point where there's lots of power. And it's also a point with lots of movement. If I just have a little bit more of a kinesthetic awareness of where that area is, that, instantly just changes how you relate to, one, that internal place, being the hip joint, but also then the external world, like just the floor, and how you place your feet on the floor. that for me has always been really interesting, trying to almost teach a little bit less sometimes, and just be like, this is what your brain needs to know, here's your hip joint or here's your knee. and then, does that change how you position your body in space?

Very nice. Yeah. a very good coaching approach, right? To help the person generate the understanding from within. And when we generate learning from within, it's implicit. we own it. It's, it's a great way. I love that. It's such a, great, definition. Now we were speaking a little bit before the show about forces and I really want to get your knowledge on this. forces are at play everywhere. And you explained to me, there's of course, there's gravity. there is, there's all kinds of physiological forces and we'll dig into that. but of course, Tom, there are forces in life and there's pressure. There is stresses. There are social challenges. There's financial challenges. And if we want to be a well functioning human being, We want to relate to those forces as well, because they're not going to go away. So how do we relate to them? How do we work with them? Now, perhaps you can give me some of your understanding about working with forces, both from the body and then how that plays out into that person's experience. how do you work with that? Can you say some more?

Yeah, I think it's always just good to know, what are the forces in the first place, and then from there, sometimes those answers almost become obvious. so you have four main forces of movement, which would be gravity, the weight of your body, momentum, so how fast you're moving your body, and then it's the reaction from the ground, so ground reaction force. So whether you're a yogi, a Pilates teacher, gyrotonic instructor, runner, it's non negotiable. Those are the four forces that you deal with for the rest of your life. So how well you deal with those forces on a fundamental level dictates the experience of your whole life. So I would say, it's interesting that you think of, makes up, a human's life. You can say many things, but I think one of the main components is, you're always standing, or you're almost always standing, you're sitting, you're breathing, and you're thinking. how are you managing those experiences? when you stand, can you organize yourself in a way which is unique to your own body? It's not to say there's, here's a cookie cutter way of one should stand. But for your own, just, physiological makeup, can you stand in a way where you're actually managing those four forces, in a way that feels good to you or feels comfortable to you? and then even to the sense of let's say, more the thinking, so we know that, for example, the thoughts in your head literally have a physiological, influence on your body, so we know very clearly now, for example, that if you are visualizing a movement, very similar parts of the brain become active, as if you were doing that movement. and then you even get a little bit of a trickle down effect, where you get neurological womps going into like certain muscle fibers, and as if you were doing that movement. So you literally have this neurological crossover between what you do, and also how you think or how you visualize things. So I think on a level, it's been my experience that, how you navigate through the world, so how gracefully or non gracefully you deal with those forces, that has a huge impact on how you deal with social aspects or, again, interpersonal things or relationships, as well, for sure. It's been my experience doing it definitely. And it's been, it's been fun to also get similar sorts of feedback from clients without prompting them. where I think I was saying to you before the podcast, let's say you help someone with their back pain, sometimes helping someone with their back pain is things like, can we be, I'm not going to teach them about the forces necessarily, but can we move you in a way and maybe strengthen certain things in a way so you're just managing the forces of movement better? And then that can totally translate into them being more socially comfortable at going to certain social functions, for example. and I do think those bridges are quite connected. You made

I see that too. Certainly if someone steps into my coaching space, which is largely a conversation, a psychological, let's say working domain, but I'll always reference the body, what's going on with your body as you say this. So we'll have an embodied connection around this. And what intrigues me is about movement. I've often sat with a coffee and just watch people go by. I find it absolutely intriguing. You can read a lot without mind reading or assumptions, but you can read a lot. There's a lot of information available if you're quiet and you observe. And it might be, how's someone's gait? How are they moving? Where's their eye liner? Are they looking down or are they looking up? And these things say a lot about where that person's at. And I know for me, it's that I learned this years ago, but Every time I'm very much buried in thinking, binge thinking, I call it, I'll be looking down. I'll be slightly collapsing the thoracic area. I'll be slightly loading my lower back. I just won't be walking very well. And as soon as I can feel that, that roll across the foot and the lift in my core, an eye line forward or up, I'm in a much more open mind space. And this really intrigues me. This, posture is power. I learned this many years ago in yoga. I learned this from being a photographer as one of my other careers. I did how we move, how we stand is experienced by us and the other. So if we want to be functioning well, the best that we can be and we're not attending to these forces and to the way we relate to these forces. Both A, that's a problem and, b, that, that's an opportunity. problems and opportunities go together. It depends what you're doing about them, So if I was to come to you, Tom, I'm like, okay, all my lower back's really tricky and I've got a lot of stresses going on right now, and I'm a bit wonky. you've already said you kind of ask questions, which is great. You figure out what's that person wants, but let's say I said to you, listen, I just want to feel good. I want to get rid of this achy back. I'd like to be a little less stressed, please. That'd be great if you know how to do that. What would you do that's in the physical domain in your toolbox that would treat that kind of challenge? Which you would know not only treats the quote unquote back problem and the stress level but would have a direct effect on that person's experience Emotionally and psychologically as well

Yeah, absolutely, to keep it to lower back pain, the first thing, once they've been clinically cleared the first thing I would be checking is, I would ask them, can you either show me, or can you explain to me, so what movements Postures or just daily life activities has your lower back affected basically. So what, what, can you currently not do or not do at all? and normally they can like demonstrate on a level like, whether it's bending forward or if it's picking up like their three year old, And then it's just kind of like noticing that, like just, first of all, just the external. Okay, they start, they suffer with maybe squatting or they, they have an issue with bending to the left or whatever it is. And then when they get more into the daily life things, like normally it's a lot of guys who may not be able to play with a three year old for very long because they simply can't bend down and stay in that position for a long time. So already there's an emotional component there for sure. Whether they're aware of it or not, that's like really, really powerful. So my first point of call is, let's find a way for you to do those movements where either we're minimizing the level of discomfort, Or hopefully even quite initially, there's not any discomfort there. and the reason why we're doing that from my perspective, one is it's to keep that person having their autonomy so they can actually still live the life they wanna live and they're not feeling like they're broken or they constantly do things. and it's also, exposing the body to similar movements that they currently can't do for whatever reason. but finding a way to work around it and that normally calms down. if they have any stress around it, that normally calms down their stress levels too. So if they can't bend forward and play with their toddler just yet, maybe they can bend down 75 percent of the way and if we just play with where the legs are positioned, maybe the leg is going to be a bit more further forward than it originally was, so you've got to bend your spine forward as far, then they can play with their kid for a bit longer, for example. so rather than trying to take away movements or take away exercises, Just reverse engineer it and modify it to the point where they can manage it. And then over time, it's building them back up again so that they can actually manage those positions. So I guess just to summarize, first thing is, what can you not do? okay, cool, let's now modify that so you can do it to a certain degree. and then around that, looking at the movements that they showed, okay, let's now increase your tolerance in those positions. So as you were saying, if it is, let's say, they can't bend their spine forward because that starts to hurt, that could be because they simply aren't strong enough in spinal flexion for the loads they're currently dealing with. So let's do some spinal flexion, but let's just maybe do it in a different way, until they can do it in the way they couldn't do it before. Does that make

It makes a lot of sense. It's really really nice, isn't it? because there's a tendency to think if I have an injury or have a pain, I won't go there You know, I won't bend over or I won't do the movement that causes me discomfort. And yet what you're suggesting there is let's understand that better. Let's have a different relationship to that. Let's perhaps get an experience of that in a slightly different version or different, an amount. And what I hear there is you're actually giving someone back freedom, physical freedom to move or maybe to play with a kid or whatever it is, but you're giving that person back autonomy as opposed to, a disability, which obviously it's a strong word and we care for how we use it. But if you're unable to do something, you start to become. Moving towards disability and it's something which intrigues me. as someone of some mature years now, as I look to the future and you look to the stats like, mm, muscle loss, 3 percent per year, muscle power loss, 3 percent and you look at the stats generally and think, okay, if I don't stay active and I am super active and I preach this, I'm like, if you're 40 plus, you need to be training. And I've had people say to me, I'm not an athlete. I'm like, yeah, but you need to be because life demands us to be an athlete because we have chairs. If we're knowledge workers, we sit at chairs, we sit at computers and we might drive or take a bus or whatever. We are so damn sedentary now. Just lifestyle is so sedentary that if we don't do something to arrest that sedentary dynamic, then we're going to have problems. And of course, that's something which I do myself. And I also aim to get clients to do more and more. As we're getting towards a more mature year, there used to be the sentiment that you should slow it down, didn't there, just take it easy, I remember one of my clients, he was a ex kickboxer and then he came to my yoga practice and it's funny because I went from yoga and I've got into boxing now, I've gone the other way, I've gone the extreme stuff. But there is a prevailing world view, certainly in this, in our country or in the West, that as we age, we have this certain expectation of less mobility, less strength, probably diminished health, and all these qualities. Now, while it's true to some degree that the body will diminish slowly over time if it's kept well, I'm really interested in challenging this orthodoxy. about saying to people, no, you can relearn a movement pattern at 45 years old. You can become a strong woman or strong man at 57. It's all there. But how would you treat that? Let's say I come to you, Tom, and I'm like, yes, and I've seen your stuff. You sound so cool. I'm ready. I'm 51 or 52 now. I'm 52. I want to be an athlete. Help me. I saw Sal. He said, go to see you. What would you do? How would you help a person who's roughly midlife saying. Let's get you moving well. So you're functioning well physiologically, you'll function well in your movement and you'll function well in your health. What would you do? I know I've thrown actually a massive challenge at you, but I'm really intrigued to how you might take that on.

Well, it's interesting, so I, I would say prob probably temperamentally, I'm a relatively optimistic person. However, I do believe that negative emotion can be much more powerful if used in a certain context. In, in this sort of situation. So for example, we know that if you put a mouse on a little treadmill and you have the smell of cheese at the end of the treadmill, the mice is, or the mouse is going to be motivated to run on the treadmill faster to get the food. Basically. However, if you put the, the smell of a cat behind them, they run much faster than if they were to get the cheese because it's more the idea of, I'd rather they're more motivated to not get eaten. So even though, it is very motivational to have, obviously, goals, end state goals, process goals, like you know where you want to be going, so I think mapping out what you want is important, but I actually think, to be real, sometimes it's really good to just spend an hour fully articulating, what would be like your own version of hell in five years. And actually, no, so what would it be like? So I would look like this, or I'd feel this way, or this would happen. and you go through that as a bit of a process. if the next five years went terribly, what would that look like? And then that gives you the blueprint of I want to go in the opposite direction of that, basically. And I think that's when you can sometimes motivate people. It's if you want to have a body That wears down really fast, you're going to get really ill, you always feel like crap, you can't do anything, and actually you're kind of like a bit of a bummer to hang out with because you don't really want to do anything and you can't anyway. And I just think sometimes articulating the reality of that, that can motivate someone to be like, you know what, okay, that's, so what do I do to avoid that? And it's okay, walking's really good, strength training's really good, flexibility, maybe, whatever, just basically, as long as you do strength training, actually you're going to get more flexible anyway. even though it starts negative, that kind of gets the fire going, and I also think, it's also, like you were saying, that the preconceived ideas that you're meant to be feeling this way at this age, or you're meant to be looking this way at this age, or, you shouldn't be doing that at this time in your life or whatever, I think, one of the ways you can minimize those negative beliefs, which aren't even accurate in the first place, Is people believe they have to like, work out seven times a week and they've gotta do like a 90 minute session and they've gotta do this, this, and that. When in reality for, if someone does like a workout session three times a week for 45 minutes and they're doing like, let's say a strength program, the benefits are non-linear. they're gonna keep getting better and better and better as long as the program is progressing with them. And it doesn't have to be like these, seven hours a week slog basically. So I think it's also realizing the bar can be set quite low for success. But also maybe know where you could go if you never even started in the first place. Does that make sense?

does. I love that. I really love that. Such a, I'm quite happy at staring into the abyss sometimes to motivate me. And as we certainly I know from brain science that we are, the brain is a prediction system. Andy Clark, Professor Andy Clark talks about this, the predictive brain, that the brain is always predicting. And the first thing it's always looking for, or brain slash nervous system, is threat. We are a threat detection system first and foremost, and when the threat's out of the way then we can be socially engaged. What we call dorsal vagal on the, in the nervous system. There are two types. So I come across away from meta patterns. They're called and toward meta patterns. So overarching thinking styles for peoples. I think both are really powerful. I think let's look how bad it could really be. Look at this. Look, actually, if you don't do something, this is where your life is going to end up. And that's not a good look. And this is where it could be. And then you got that. And what I'm feeling there's tension, right? That that creates tension. And you spoke about tensional forces in the body and I'm interested in that tensional forces in, motivation or let's say compulsion. around if you can notice these two things that might create the right kind of tension, but it's, yeah, I love that. I would be listening to you half day, but like, yeah, totally. I know I don't want to be in five years, and I have an autoimmune condition, so I know what it's like to be down and out, to be broken by them, and I, thankfully, I'm in pretty good shape, and I have to be careful. There are certain things I need to do and not do, but I know having health taken away from you is Suffering. Pure suffering. And I don't wish it on anyone, and I certainly don't want it for myself. But that's why I do what I do. It's one of the big motivations, because I know what suffering feels like. And I don't want that. Because people say to me, Tom, they're like, Wow, you're so motivated. You train every day, you do this. I'm like, yeah, but I see it as play. And I also see it as privilege, because I know when I haven't been able to even stand up. I can't even stand up. So when I can stand up, I'm never not grateful for that, which I don't know, if someone's had a health issue, maybe they relate to that, but maybe if you haven't, it could be more, more challenging. Yeah,

think it's a, I really believe it's a privilege to be able to have your autonomy, like truly, my first ever client, ever, ever, ever, ever, was a 13 year old boy, and I'm still, friends with him now, he's probably 27 now or something, but anyway, he had cerebral palsy, he was born with cerebral palsy, and so he couldn't walk, and I was working with him because he was having some surgeries at the time, and my job, I mean I barely knew anything at this point, but my job was to come in for two hours a day, and, And just do some stretches and it was really, really positive. But I remember, I was probably like 18 at the time, I was really young. And I remember just being in bed one night, it was probably quite early on when I was working with this, young guy. And I remember just being like, at any point, if I want to go to the toilet, I can just, get up and go to the loo. Or like glass of water, man, I really just spent like a few minutes in like darkness, like in my bedroom, just thinking about this. And then, because it was, the first time in my life I'd been around someone. who was disabled, physically disabled, basically. And it was really, it was almost like a light bulb moment went off, where I was just like, it is a genuine privilege to be able to just even like meme gesture with my hand as I'm talking. And I think sometimes you never have those moments where you just realise, Oh, being alive is really weird. Like you almost catch yourself, because you get busy in your day, and you're like, I don't do taxes, whatever, like you're late for something. You just get sucked into just like the, for lack of a better word, I guess the rat race. And then you have those moments where you're like, it's really weird that I'm alive. and it's and this is gonna, and it's 80 years of, it's just like, as soon as I have those moments I just get quite introspective. But I just think also it's really lucky to, one, be alive, but also you're alive with a body that actually is able to respond to like, your thinking. And just, I sometimes have these funny debates with friends who, I might say that to them and they're just like, What are you on about, mate? Of course you can move. they think it's ridiculous that I'm just grateful on that level that you're able to move your body. But I think maybe if you've been around that a little bit, you've been around people that don't have that and they weren't even born with that opportunity in the first place. It's just, it's almost and I think as well, talking to older men, guys in their 70s and 80s. who are still really fit and active, but they can sometimes say still bloody, it's harder now. And I just think it's good to keep it if you've got it,

yeah, absolutely. a phrase came to my mind a little while ago. it's a bit of the Cartesian debate, but we don't live in a body. We live through a body. So that means if your whole experience of life is mediated through your senses, through your tissues, through your fascia, up through the nervous system, into the brain, into the, to the idea of like, how am I doing today? How am I feeling? How am I moving? How am I working? Then I think we are missing the absolute building blocks of the constituent of like how our experience actually is. So we could go deep and philosophical, which is where I like to hang out, but I'm going to bring it back on point because so for our listeners, we've really checked in with some important stuff. Understanding forces, understanding tension, understanding that relationship between your body and really knowing where things are. Sounds, that's just such fundamental, and clear advice. It's brilliant, Tom. It's really brilliant. I would like to capture this into Some of the perhaps the pillars or the key things you might say, here's what I would impart if you want to function well, what might those pillars or guidance points be?

I would say just know how the body functions. so if you want to know okay, like how do I, how do I function better? You will, I think the, thing before that is what is the function of this thing? So if that makes any sense, so for example, bring it back to practical again. So what's the function of your foot for it, let's say. So your foot, to keep it simple, it can be a very foundational stable surface to help balance the whole body. and then it can also be a narrow, rigid lever that can propel you through space. So on a level, and there's obviously many functions like balance, proprioception, but just on that basic mechanical level, the function of the foot is to give you a foundational surface, and then it's to give you a much less foundational surface in a few milliseconds to push you away from the floor. So if you want to have a functional foot, make sure it can just do those two things. And then to work it back a bit further, so how does it do those two things? you need to have a pronated foot sometimes. And then you need to have a supinated foot, so just then do exercises that complement the different movements that create pronation and create supination. And if you do that, you'll have a functional For example, so I think it's like just knowing what the function of something is, you can already then streamline, Oh, okay, that's, then that's how I'm functional and I can do that. And then obviously you can be more specific, I think there's, in my mind, the function has two definitions. You have, the function of the body. So what's the function of this organ, like the spine, the rib cage, whatever. And then can I base some of my exercises around complementing those functions. But then also you have personal functions. for example, going back to the guy earlier on who wants to play with his kid and he wants to bend down. That, that's a function. So it's also then, and that might be then more global, so then how do I get the hips to move better, how do I get the spine to move better, to, to accommodate that function that person wants in their personal life with their kid, for example. So for me, it's always been that, it just, it just goes back to, going much more global now, like what's the function of the human body. one thing we're really, really good at is walking, we're the best walkers on the planet. So why not just learn a little bit about what creates walking? Or like another one, if you wanna have a better shoulder, if you want your shoulder to feel just pain-free, stronger, more flexible, better positioned. why do you have a shoulder? Your shoulder is basically a force buffer between your spine and your hand. So you can throw balls so you can, or throw rocks or throw spears. So where the best throwers on the planet? So we know, for example, that by the time you get to four. A four year old homosapien, human, is already a better thrower than a fully grown chimpanzee. So we're really designed for throwing stuff. So if that's like your evolution heritage, walking, throwing, a bit of swimming, we're aquatic as well, oddly enough, then why not just do things on a regular basis that you were designed to do anyway? And that will probably go a long way to improving your function.

Yeah. Really

Am I answering the question?

Yeah, it does. Yeah. I'm just, my mind's percolating that, that principle and, and I trust, those listening as well are doing the same, but yeah, just in some ways it's super practical, isn't it? It's what is the function of my foot? it's what does it actually do? And, and if you've got back pain, is that because you walk in a dysfunctional way? And it could be for some people. If, so we changed the function of the foot. Yeah. and the global idea of, I want to travel whilst walking, then we might then release up the chain of events. actually my position of my hips is better now because my foot's better and, and suddenly my lower back pain is gone, which then also means that I'm probably not miserable and it might not interrupt my sleep and so on and so forth. So yeah, they are called fractals. I call them fractals. You know what fractals repeating patterns in nature. We see them in the bronchiality of the lungs, we see them in the leaves and the trees, but I see like behavioral fractals in people as well, like the small pattern repeats into the bigger, and whether that's in the physical domain or psychological, but the pattern repeats, whether that's imbalance or incorrect tension or misunderstanding, or even disconnection from the body, which I think is the biggest thing I see for some people, that the thinking self And the somatic self, the body self are out of out. They're outta whack, they're outta harmony. And and I love what you said there right at the early part of the show about get someone to know where their hip bones actually insert and they're gonna hinge well, and of course I'm like, yeah, that's a, that makes so much sense. And, and I'm thinking, hmm, when I was deadlifting the other day was I paying attention to my hip? So I'm redoing that, that deadlifts are on my, schedule tomorrow. So I should be paying attention to the hip joint movement.

And it also, for me, it becomes really fun. I, like you, I really love anatomy. I, I just really enjoy the study of anatomy. Not, not because I like to remember abstract names of things. It's because, I just feel like when I'm learning anatomy, I'm learning about, oh, this is, I've learned about myself. oh, this is actually how I evolved. That's why the hip bones over there. That's why the sit bones over there. Oh, okay. And I just find, that gives me a really deep appreciation of movement. And, but then bringing it back to the clients, it doesn't mean that they've got to bloody know every single anatomy detail. But even, going back to the throwing idea, I get my clients sometimes who I teach online, I get them to get a ball, and we're just practicing throwing the ball. And we make it fun, you've got to visualize your partner, and you're trying to throw the ball at them, or, just like a bullseye a hundred meters away, and, but just that act of them throwing is so good for their shoulder. And as you say, if suddenly they're, like, if they notice in their own body, which is always the more powerful teaching moment is if they notice, they're like, you know what, my shoulder actually doesn't feel like it's moving so well on the right side than the left side. It might be something to do, if the head's really far forward, that restricts shoulder movement. And so then you can be like, you know what, why don't you just try this with your head, and then see if that improves how your shoulder moves. And then suddenly you've indirectly taught someone how the body's inherently connected. and it's not to say that everyone should have the same posture, or everyone should look the same, not at all. But, going back to almost this idea of the tension of the neck, and how the tension of the neck influences the tension of the shoulder, you can play with that relationship until someone feels like they're in their most optimal organisational alignment.

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. I'm going to summarize with, I had an old Tai Chi master friend and they used to, say about wasted energy. So from the Eastern arts, and they would look at a body composition and position, and they might get someone to move their upper shoulders a little bit, move their pelvis, split their feet. And they would talk about how much energy is either wasted or saved based on optimal alignment. And as you rightly say, it's not, you should look like this picture. You should stand like this, but it should be, do you feel balanced perhaps in the foot joints, the pelvis and the lower back, and all these kinds of positions. And it's amazing because energy is everything. Metabolic energy, thinking energy, oxygen, all energy is life. It's basic quantum physics, and we mostly know this. And when anyone feels tired, and I see this a lot, someone's tired, exhausted, maybe burnt out. You are not utilizing your energy very well, and I think it's such an interesting thing to go to the physical energy as well. Like, how do you organize your body, as you've already beautifully alluded to? And is that disorganized? Are you essentially hemorrhaging energy through tight shoulders, traps that are overfiring, whatever that might be? And does that bleed out into the rest of your life? Energy drains, it's called in S& C. And I think it's such an important thing that a lot of people aren't looking at, and It is wasted energy. I would like to get your last thoughts on energy management because it's something I talk about a lot with my people. Rather than time management, energy management, like going with biorhythms, going with the natural sense. How might you work with that?

Yeah, I'm just thinking energy because it's obviously a big thing, like the first thing that comes to my head is sleep. I think that's probably because it's, I'm thinking about my own energy management probably. I just noticed that if I'm underslept, it just throws everything out. which I find interesting. So I think, in terms of how well could people energy manage, I'll just think about that for a minute, I think, I suppose my main domain, which I do that in, would be in, in movement itself, so like you say, like, how can we better organise the ribs over the pelvis, and how they rotate with each other in walking, and again, another way of saying energy management, you could say is energy leakage, uh, which is more of a biomechanical term, if, if you're moving too much in the coronal plane, Then you're wasting a bit of energy in the coronal plane. So can we can we minimize that? So we, as you were saying, optimizing their energy flow, and I think you know, I work, I've not seen her actually yet in a few months, but I'm going to work with her again soon. I have an energy coach. she doesn't really call herself an energy coach, but I can, I just know the way I can explain it. So I just call her an energy coach. But, that's very much working with energy, really. So we're working with my own energy. if there's any kind of energetic, like areas that aren't letting go, which might manifest in like an image in my head or like an emotion or anything like that. and a lot of that, to be honest, is, is presence work. a lot of that I've learned from like Eckhart Tolle, which I'm a big fan of. and so in terms of energy management, sometimes it's just even noticing where you might have mismanagement. And even just that noticing, I, this is, I'm out of my area of expertise now, but from what I've learned from my teachers is where even just by noticing that energy, it can already start to diminish if it's not managed well, and then you can start to manage it better just by being aware of it. But I think on a practical level, for me, it's a sleep these days, like making sure that you have a relatively dark room, actually getting eight hours, rather than six and a half or five hours. because we know as well, like even with sleep, there's a fair bit of research now correlating lack of sleep to increase an injury risk. and so that's a huge thing as well with, how, again, how you move your body and how you manage it. Yeah.

because it's a big topic. But yes, it's, but I think the basics remain. You don't have to be a specialist in sleep to know what good sleep feels like and what disruptive sleep feels like and its effects. So yes, it just goes to reminding that if you get the basics right, the fundamentals You build your base, most things above it don't fall down. If you've got a terribly bad base like physiologically, or sleep, or your psychological base is, is all all over the place, everything above it can crumble. or often I talk about a core 'cause I'm look at that if I'm an Eastern principle from a center alk, if your core is robust and strong. Everything that anchors and gravitates towards it will feel strong. Whereas if you cause weak, whether that's physical, whether or mental or emotional, then you're going to have problems. And, and I don't know many people that like problems. So, we're always trying to overcome problems, right?

It's so funny, isn't it, because sometimes, I've sometimes been guilty of like calling these things woo woo, and I do it with a bit of tongue in cheek, I don't really mean it. But it's funny because the more, I think the more you learn about, again, the body, and it's funny how, these things, transcend culture, we know, for example, that your postural system is governed by your serotonergic system, and you can trace that system, a third of a billion years back in the past, because you can look at certain animals and you can see how that same, neurophysiological relationship governs their posture and also governs the level of serotonin. And so these systems have, been in place, they're older than trees, they've been in place for a really, really, really long time. And I think, so it's it's just fun to learn these things, and it's almost like you're learning certain principles as well. and then being able to practically implement that in a S& C class, or if it's a Pilates class, or whatever it is, an education forum. I think it's just, on many different levels, it's quite a rewarding thing to learn.

Yeah, absolutely. Tom, I am delighted that we got to speak today. I'm better informed already. I'm like, I learn, I'm so privileged that I get to speak wonderful people like you. And I always learn something, which is why I do this. And I trust my dear listeners that you have learned not just some thing, but many things around forces, around the body, around perhaps just thinking around the impact of the body and the mind and how it all comes together. So Tom, If you haven't, do what I do with podcasts, hit replay, write notes. Yeah, write notes, grab what you need to know from this. and as always you can hit me on the socials, let me know what you thought, if you've got questions for myself or for Tom, do connect. So there'll be links on the show notes and on socials this is on, so do connect. So Tom, thank you for your time, dear listener, thank you for your time. Until the next one, take care.