**** Producer's Note: The following is a general transcript of LCC Connect's weekly radio program. Contents include but may not be limited to podcasts, program imaging, announcements, and PSAs. More detailed and accurate transcripts of the podcast episodes featured in this broadcast can be found at LCCconnect.com or by following the links provided in the show notes of this episode. ****

You're listening to LCC Alumni Stories, a show celebrating the amazing alumni of Lansing Community College. I'm Steve Robinson, President of lcc, and on each episode I have the privilege of meeting inspiring alums and hearing about their experiences at and since leaving lcc. Our alumni community is diverse and far reaching, representing all walks of life and working in various industries nationwide. LCC Alumni Stories highlights those who make positive contributions to their communities and showcases those who've overcome obstacles to achieve success. These are their dynamic stories. My guest today is Dustin Early, Deputy Director of Engagement at the County Road association of Michigan. Dustin's educational journey took him through LCC from 2012 to 2015, where he built a strong foundation before completing his professional communications bachelor's degree at Siena Heights University at the University Center. Right here at lcc, Dustin has built a successful career as a communications professional, earning his accreditation and PR designation while leading engagement and outreach for Michigan's county road infrastructure. Dustin, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here.

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Well, I've been looking forward to our conversation because we met on campus and started reminiscing about your times here at lcc. So it is great to have you here. Tell me a little bit about what you do for the county Road association.

Yeah, hit the nail on the head there. I'm the Deputy Director of Engagement.

Okay.

One of those mysterious job titles, but important. Absolutely.

So what does the Deputy Director of Engagement do?

So I lead our communications, marketing, outreach, educational events, kind of everything in that member facing communications area.

How many members does the association have roughly?

So there's 83 counties in Michigan.

Right.

Each one has either a county road commission or department. So all 83 are our members. And then each one of those have various numbers of staff under there. So somewhere around three to five thousand people at any given time.

That's incredible. And you know, Michigan being so focused on the automobile and roads, this is a really important part of life in Michigan. The road infrastructure across the state.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, county road agencies are responsible for 75% of the roads in Michigan, and they also maintain the roads for the state in 63 counties. So we, our members are responsible, I mean, truly for the overwhelming majority of roads. With Michigan's background in it and our history and with what's going on in the news at this time with a lot of discussions surrounding transportation funding and revenue initiatives, it's very exciting work to be doing.

Yeah, we just. There was a big event at the Capitol recently with A lot of folks talking about road infrastructure. It's such a huge part of our life here. I was just doing math in my head of the 83 counties and all the people involved in those. We're really talking about thousands and thousands of people working on the road infrastructure in our state.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's just through just the counties. I mean, the cities have their own. MDOT has their own employees from there. MDOT meaning the Michigan Department of Transportation.

Right.

And then there's private contractors, too. So, I mean, there are tens. I mean, I don't know if I could even really peg a number on how many people work in the industry.

And I'm just thinking of those counties and all the people involved. Your title is engagement. At our academic senate meeting this morning, that was the topic we were talking about. How do we keep administrators, faculty engaged? What kinds of engagement are you working with on these county road commissions? How do you want them to work with each other and engage with each other?

Yeah, man, that's a really good. Very complex question. So we're doing engagement in a lot of different ways. You know, one of the main things we're doing is we receive a lot of information at the association, help digest it, work with the parties that are putting that stuff out. So whether that's at the state, federal, local, or whether it's private partnerships, we're getting in a lot of information all the time. And then we're working to help organize our members to engage with that. So whether it's through, like, committees, coalitions, work groups, you know, whatever, we're helping facilitate a lot of that engagement. There's also engagement with the legislature, where there's constantly new legislation being written, topics being discussed, and we get to. I mean, I feel very fortunate that we get to help represent the county road agencies, their perspective and their needs in that fashion as well.

Well, you're always a topic of discussion politically. Right. Fix the damn roads. Right. Both parties, candidates from all over the state talk about this. It's an important pol. Political topic. Do you find that there's bipartisan interest in the work of the road commissions?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Transportation infrastructure is one of the most nonpartisan issues. There's a lot of at least, like, tent pole issues. I would say, for, you know, that the state government and administration's always working on education, access to clean water, the environment, infrastructure being one of the main ones. And it's, again, really nonpartisan because everybody drives on roads.

That's right.

Everywhere in the state, you're driving on roads, you're using the bridges, the right of way. Everything involved in transportation infrastructure is. It's very invisible until it's not. But it's pervasive in every way. It's in everybody's lives from the moment they leave the house to the moment they come home.

So just talking to you is making some memories. Sort of fire in the back of my. Early in my career, I was a city councilman in a small city in Michigan. And it just dawned on me. I was on the planning commission and we did a lot of local roads. What a complex system we have of municipalities, counties, state, federal. There's a lot going on in your universe.

Yeah, absolutely. All the time. There's one of the things I love the most about my job and something that I learned through my time at LCC is that I love to learn. Just can't get enough of it. So speaking of that complexity, always new things to learn, new ways to understand complex problems that's just never ending. And I'm very thankful for that.

So, I mean, that brings a couple of questions to mind for me. First of all, the role of an association. I'm assuming your headquarters are here in Lansing. Right. Cause that's where the lawmakers and people you need to talk to. But folks who don't interface with associations may not have an appreciation for just how important it is to be here in the state capitol and be telling the story of the. These road commissions. Like, what do you do to get the message across to the lawmakers and policymakers?

That's such a good question. And before I tell you, I just wanna say that, yes, absolutely. I had no idea what an association was.

And there's so many of them here. We have the Community College association and it's a really important thing that not a lot of people know about. So how do you do it?

Yeah. So it all comes down to just speaking with our members and hearing what they have to say. A lot of them don't really know or maybe don't believe that they have a very compelling, very interesting story to tell. It's just getting that story out of them and then finding an engaging way to tell it, to retell it. I should say to get that in front of the audiences that need to hear it. They need to understand how things are functioning and the things that they're going through.

Yeah. Just walking through downtown Lansing, a lot of your counterparts in all the associations for grocery stores, for every aspect of our life that you can think of, and it's really, really important. The second question I Had for you. And it's a Michigan question. This is true of the community college world. Michigan is a pretty decentralized state. You mentioned 83 counties. When you compare the county road system, the way it's set up in Michigan to other states across the country is the same thing that's true of community colleges. True of our roads is that we're sort very decentralized less than other states.

We are, absolutely. Michigan's the only state that has county road commissions.

Really?

Yeah. Their own.

Oh, I'm today years old when I'm learning that.

Wow.

Yeah. Their own independent form of government with their own separate board of county road commissioners. A lot of associations have kind of like a national mother association. We don't really have one. The closest thing we have is the national association of county and Engineers because each county road commission is required to have a certified professional engineer on staff. But other than that. Yeah, we're very unique in that way.

So I learned that today from you right now sitting here. But it is completely consistent with what I know about Michigan and Michigan. I think it's also. It's a strength and kind of a challenge in Michigan is that the strength is that there's a lot of local control. What you just said about the county road commissions is true of our community colleges. There are 28 statutory community colleges plus the three tribal community colleges. And we're our own entities. We're really not accountable to any other state agency and we have to come together. So Michigan is the only state that is set up like this?

Yeah, to my knowledge. I mean, you know, I always gotta hedge my bets here.

But no, no, that's really fascinating to me. Now, I'm sure you're used to answering this question. We don't have a great reputation nationally about our roads. Right. What are your thoughts or what are your first strategies of dealing with complaints about Michigan roads? Of course we have different weather. Right. We got a lot of freezing and thawing and stuff like that. But talk to me about what you say when you hear complaints or negative assessments of our roads.

Yeah, I mean, you hear that from a lot of different people. Whether that's from people that are approaching it from a policy making perspective or when you just Google county road commission, our number pops up as the association. So we get a lot of calls of people just out on the road. The first thing we do is always ensure that people are heard. That's very important. Make sure that they're heard and acknowledged and let them know we understand what you're experiencing. Then from there, depending on where they're coming from, it's easier to approach from a policy perspective to explain that, well, decades of underfunding and our unique soil types, the regional differences between the tip of the Keweenaw down to metro Detroit, those things are all hard to account for.

I couldn't agree more. As a lifelong Michigander, it's something I've understood growing up here. I stepped out of the state for about six years to be in Toledo, Ohio, which in some ways is still culturally Michigan. But you've mentioned a couple of times some experiences or knowledge and abilities that you gained while you were here at lcc. Let's transition to talk about that. You're a communications and engagement professional, but clearly you learned how to do that. What did you study when you were here at lcc?

Took an interesting path, but I very, you know, much appreciate the lcc. Let me kind of really explore a lot of different avenues. So I started out in the digital media, audio and cinema.

Yeah, our DMACC program.

Yeah, Loved that. Absolutely loved it. I spent, you know, I did a couple. I mean, I took the bartending class. I did some computer programming with Python to try that out and landed on. At the time, I had been professionally writing, doing freelance work.

Oh, cool.

And was working with a lot of PR firms at the time and figured, you know what? I feel like I could do this. And I think they get paid a little bit better than I do. And it just, you know, it seems like a nice, stable, interesting job. So why don't I explore some of these communications classes and really just kind of fell in love with that path through that.

Well, it sounds like that's what you do every day for the association. Right. So talk to me a little bit about some.

The.

Of some classes or memorable experiences you had here that maybe you draw upon when you're telling the association story.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so I took a lot of the PR classes. One of my absolute favorite things about OCC is that the professors here are real people that generally have other professions that they're working at the same time.

That's right.

So I worked with multiple professors. Kate Snyder, I've worked with her. Her since graduating.

Oh, you have? Cool.

Yeah. Doug Klein has been at, you know, he was at a lot of the Public Relations Society of America meetings that I had been going to. I was on their board of directors for like, I think, six or seven years.

Fantastic.

Yeah, so he was at a lot of the luncheons and stuff. My big story, really is that my Public speaking teacher. The first day after class, I asked her, you get kind of nervous about, am I on the right career path and you're investing a lot of time and a lot of yourself into, you know, something like this. So I asked her, is this a good town to work in communications? And she said, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I'm involved in a lot of association work. She had been working closely with the Michigan Society for Association Executives. So she ended up throughout the semester trying to get me to come take an internship at her office. And sure enough, I ended up doing that. That's where I've been for 11 years now with her, her still serving as my boss, now as our CEO.

That's fantastic. Well, first of all, without even planning to do it, pulled out some of the major bragging points about community colleges and LCC in particular. Our faculty are amazing.

Oh, absolutely.

We have incredible faculty. But you're right, so many of them are active in their fields. They're practitioners in their fields. And so what an incredible story. So you're your current supervisor is one of your professors here?

Yeah, that's right. I think she just taught her last semester.

Okay.

But yeah, we got to know each other through the public speaking course, which again, funny enough, I public speak quite often multiple times.

I can imagine, for a living.

So I've used so many of the skills I learned in her class to this day. We actually have an intern right now who was her student as well for her last semester.

So. And that's another one. One of those brag points is internships. And I think when we first met, I shared with you. I have an internship story too. I mean, I am where I am because of an internship that I had here at LCC When I was studying at Michigan State, I wanted to become an English professor and I had a great opportunity to teach English121 here all those years ago. Without that internship, I couldn't have started my career. And it sounds like that's the case for you.

Yeah, absolutely. I did not have the best relationship with education prior to coming to LCC and kind of wanted to give it a shot. I had been working freelance for a long time in professional writing, but a lot of the jobs I was looking to move into that were more stable, that had all the benefits you were looking for to start a family. It really put down roots. They all required four year degrees or some type of continuing education. So I gave LCC a shot, not knowing really what to expect. And Vaughn Vowels was my psychology professor and he really absolutely Completely changed my perspective on learning. And his class was so good, and my experience was so good my first semester at LCC that it really is what transformed me into a lifelong learner. And I can kind of trace that moment, moment of transitioning to LLCC and wanting to further pursue professional, educational, personal development through this way to so many things that I've done in my life since then.

That is incredible. And I'm really happy to tell you that that's a unique and powerful experience. But I actually hear this a lot. I really do. In my line of work, as I move through the community and talk to folks about. I'll be grocery shopping or interacting with a server at a restaurant. I hear stories about classroom experiences that have really changed the trajectory of people's lives. And it sounds like that's what that psychology class like, what was it about that psychology class that had that impact on you?

You know, it was just kind of finding my place in terms of being around my peers, feeling like I was more plugged into my community, having somebody in that position, a professor who I felt really respected me, who had a lot of really great experience coming downtown. I'm born and raised in Lansing, so I felt a lot of pride in coming here. It's just kind of the culmination of all these factors happening at once, really. Just I felt like I belonged, like I had found my place. I had started to find some passions, and it was again, just a new path that was, I felt like, hadn't really been available to me before.

Well, I think I can speak for everybody who works here that this is exactly why we come to work every day. I mean, hearing stories like this, and you took the words out of my mouth about our tagline, we tell everybody at lcc, you belong here. There's that transformative experience where everybody who comes to higher education has some form of a little bit of imposter syndrome or feeling like they don't fit in. And one of the great things about our amazing faculty and staff is we're aware of that. We went through it ourselves. And so your psychology professor, all these folks you worked with in dmacc, they thrive on making those pivot points for students. So it sounds like that was really your launching off point. And you didn't stop with the associate degree programming here. You continued on a three plus one with one of our university programs, partners. Right? Tell me how that worked and how you gained your other degree.

Yeah, so I kind of dabbled in a few things here. My public speaking professor, Denise Donahue, When I spoke to her about communication, she said, it's a great degree. She had a degree, a master's in journalism. It's a great. Communication is a great path. I really think it's worth exploring for a four year degree. So I said, okay, well, let me look into this a little bit more. Found out about a university center through an advisor here at llcc. Found a program. I was like, oh, there's a communications program right here. I can stay at LLCC for another year, then finish out right across the street. There's a lot of flexible learning options for online classes as well. Because work was starting to really pick up for me at the time. And yeah, one thing after another. First person, my immediate family, my mother, father, grandparents, first person to have a four year college degree.

So you're a first generation college student?

I am, yeah.

Fantastic. You know, on that point when you were talking about growing up in Lansing, what was your impression of Lansing Community College as you were a young person, as you were going to high school? I mean, what did you think about us before you actually got here?

Yeah. So going to Lansing public schools, LCC had just kind of been a fixture of education in the community. I mean, there was a lot of programs where through the high school and I remembered hearing about, well, these kids get to go to LCC to, you know, do a couple classes.

I love that. I just want to you describe it like it was a privilege, like they get to go.

Absolutely not.

They have to. Or they are going, but they get to go. That's so cool.

Yeah, it was the coolest thing. And my mom took some art classes through LCC and she always talked about it as it's a very accessible way to continue your education and to, you know, kind of find out what you want to do and access, explore. And I mean, it's always to me been framed in that way that it's accessible. I think that there's a lot of barriers to continuing your education to, you know, really getting into anything. And I was shocked. My then girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife.

Okay, congratulations.

Was also going to LCC with me. She was another person that really encouraged me to, you know, look into it because she said, oh, it's great. She worked here at the time as well.

Fantastic.

It's really cool. I think you'd really like it. You'd probably meet some cool people and they have a lot of classes. You'd be surprised how many classes they have. So for me, the reputation of it being this cool place, lots of fun stuff to do there always interesting things happening attached to it with the auditorium with. It was just, it always seemed. I grew up downtown and had a lot of jobs downtown, but before in my teens and stuff. So I'd always seen the buildings and I just always thought it was this really cool place.

It is a cool place. And you've touched on a couple of our major themes, right? There are about 1,100 community colleges in the country and we were all founded on an access agenda. Because you're right, there still are a lot of barriers to higher education. But in 1957, our visionary doctoral student at Michigan State had the idea of starting a community college. And one of the reasons that partnership with Lansing schools is so close. We originally were founded with the school district. We didn't get a community college law in Michigan until 1966. So this community was very visionary in starting a community college. There are other communities that had two year colleges, but they started off as junior colleges. You know, Phil Gannon over at msu, he studied what was then a groundbreaking idea, this idea of a community college. And so you grew up downtown, so you had a sense of the importance of our place right where we are. We've really as a college transformed our part of downtown, haven't we? Isn't it a really cool part of downtown?

I've loved over the years watching all the different things come in, the art pieces, just, you know, the modern design, all the. I mean, it's been fantastic watching it all come together.

I'll tell you very quickly, I gave one of our trustees and I gave a tour of our downtown campus to a trustee from another community college in Michigan and she kept having to pull her jaw up off the floor. We have incredible diversity of architecture. We've got buildings that date back to the 19th century and then we've got some of our brand new gorgeous facilities. And you mentioned the place making. We have public art and sculpture. It's something that we're really, really known for. Well, when you and I bumped into each other, I could just tell that you were proud to be associated with our college. Do you tell people a lot that you went here?

Oh, absolutely. I wear it as a point of pride that, you know, I attended lcc, met some of people that have been still with me and support me to this day and my role models, my mentors. I never, I could never downplay the importance of LCC in my life. It has played such an important role.

Well, you coming on this show and telling that story is a continuation of that, and I really appreciate it because you can have billboards and great TV ads, but the way people really get to understand our institution is through relationships and stories like yours. So the fact that you tell people about your experiences here and connect it to your current success because you're doing amazing things for the road commission. And you also taught me a lot today. You know, we have a really cool state. Our state is really, really a wonderful place. But when you think about just how diverse and, again, decentralized it is, I never thought about it until, like you said, the roads from the Keweenaw all the way down to the Ohio Michigan border, where I spent some time. There's so much diversity in the road infrastructure here.

Yeah, absolutely. We just did a big series of news release on fall color tours. So we have a thing called My Back Roads.

I'm totally going there this afternoon. So it's on your website?

Yeah. Yep, you can go.

What's the website? Because I. I definitely want to do a couple color tours this time.

You can do micountyroads.org michackroads all right.

Well, that is perfect timing for me because I want to get out there with the top down and enjoy our beautiful state. Dustin, it has been wonderful to connect with you today. I've really enjoyed this conversation. So thank you so much for sharing your journey with me.

Thank you so much for having me. I feel incredibly fortunate to be able to share with everyone.

Well, it's been a great conversation and Dustin, I look forward to bumping into you on campus or other places. And thanks for all that you do.

Absolutely.

LCC Alumni Stories is recorded and produced by Steve Robinson on LCC's downtown campus. The soundtrack, who Told you'd? Is licensed through Dewolf Music and was performed by Ian McCanty. Thanks for listening. Discover what our other alumni have been up to and Explore more than 30 podcasts on LCCConnect.com and if you're an LCC alum and you want to share your story with me, send me an email@steverobinsoncc.edu. until next time, keep learning. This is LCC Connect. Voices, Vibes Vision. This is LCC Connect.

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Lansing Community College Performing Arts features several events and presentations throughout the year. Find more information by visiting lcc.

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This is Bob Myers from the Historical Society of Michigan with a Michigan History moment During World War I, about 10% of American doughboys were Polish Americans. Although only 4% of the U.S. population was made up of Polish Americans, some 20,000 thousand more served in Haller's Blue Army, a Polish organization fighting in France under General Joseph Haller. Poland did not then exist as an independent nation. In the late 18th century, Poland had been partitioned by Prussia, Austria and Russia. Early In World War I, General Joseph Haller had led Polish soldiers in the Austrian army in fighting against the Russians and Germans. The Poles suffered enormous casualties. Haller and his men eventually made their way to France, where a Polish army was forming to fight under its own flag but under French command. It became known as Haller's Blue army, so named for its blue French uniforms. In October 1917, Polish American men rushed to enlistment centers to join the Blue Army. Most Michigan recruits came from Detroit, but scores more joined from Grand Rapids, Bay City, Saginaw and the Upper Peninsula's Gogebik County. After one month's training in Canada, the recruits sailed for France, where they joined other Poles from all over the world. On June 18, 1918, the 1st Polish Regiment went into battle in the Champagne region of France. For the first time since 1813, soldiers fought under the Polish flag, albeit under French command. In August, 227 officers and nearly 1,000 enlisted men were organized into the Polish Army Division. General Joseph Haller took command two months later, but the armistice in November ended the fighting before it could play a major role. The Polish troops had 206 men killed and nearly 900 wounded. More than half the dead were Polish American. During the peace negotiations, diplomats created an independent Poland. Haller's Blue army traveled to Poland, where it fought against Soviet troops determined to destroy the new nation. Bitter fighting ended in Polish victory and an Armistice in October 1920 victory came at a cost of 2,800 Polish American casualties. In 1939, Poland was divided again, this time between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. World War II left Poland under Soviet domination. Poland regained full independence after the fall of the Soviet Union, and in 1998 the Polish government erected a monument in Warsaw to recognize the Polish American volunteers of Haller's Blue Army. This Michigan history moment was brought to you by michiganhistorymagazine.org.

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Find all you need to know@lccstarstars. I'm Steven Cutter and I host a show called Coach Cut's Corner here on LCC Connect. Coach Cut's Corner is about Lansing Stars baseball program, mental performance and just getting better in everyday life. You can always find more about LCC Connect shows and listen on demand@lccconnect.com I'm William Shatner. I've been around a long time, but I'm truly humbled when I see the real battles our brave paralyzed veterans have faced defending our freedom.

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Washington Square on air is the audio town square for the Washington Square Review. Lansing Community College's literary journal. Writers, readers, scholars, publishing professionals, citizens of the world, gather here and chat about all things writing. Hey there. This is Melissa Ford Luckin, editor for the Washington Square Review. I'm here today with Anthony Arthur, whose poem Productivity is in our Summer 24 issue. Hey there, Anthony.

Hi Melissa. Thank you so much for having me.

Sure thing. Tell us about your poem.

Well, productivity is quite the rumination on some of the themes that I felt have become really, really sacrosanct to living in the 21st century, mainly surrounding the idea that one's worth is centered around their ability to produce things and their productivity within sort of a capitalist framework. Now, I often say to people I am most certainly not, not communist leaning. I've worked for everything I have in my life and I believe in rugged individualism to a great extent. But I definitely think that we're in an era where, you know, we have to start to reframe the way we value people beyond just money. And I think that we're seeing, you know, globally there are animals and so much animal abuse, so much destruction of wildlife, so much destruction of people's livelihoods, let alone anything even more grandiose happening around the world that we have to consider in terms of, you know, is it really worthwhile? Is that productivity worthwhile when we're considering people's lives?

There's a toll on the person too as well. Not just on society, but as in each individual. Have you seen that in your own life, people around you, or experienced it yourself?

Yeah, you know, I found it really, really intriguing, I think, especially being a mixed race writer. You know, I've American, British and Kuwaiti, so it's a really, really interesting combo. And I'm quite racially mixed as well and ethnically mixed. So it's always been really interesting growing up seeing the way different cultures have framed production. And I think seeing my grandmother who's, you know, she's been in the Middle east since 1968 and she married my grandfather, a Boston native. She went from having that, you know, sort of, I guess, you know, during the Second World War, you know, American army brat experience, she's to live in Japan. My great grandfather was stationed there in Korea. And you know, having her move to the Middle east and the experiences she had as, as an American lady in the middle of the Middle east in a newly formed country and how that shaped her and her ability to produce things was, was quite tough. Seeing the experiences she had that quite negatively impacted her. And then seeing that, of course, with my mom being mixed race, seeing that with my aunts, you know, I can say that I think, think, you know, the idea to produce impacts women so much more because society doesn't factor in their needs, you know, especially living and you know, in a great deal of much of the world. So there's a great deal of patriarchy that still exists.

Are there any specific examples that come to mind with any of your relatives that you mentioned?

Yeah, I just think sort of how much work can take a toll on the body. So I've been quite proactive about discussing autoimmune conditions. I myself have three conditions. I have Hashimoto's psoriatic arthritis and insulin resistance. And although some of this is genetic and it's been passed down for some generations now, I think that I've seen how working so hard and focusing so much on work can really destroy your health. And unfortunately, I've seen that with much of my family, with my own mother, my aunt, months. And I've seen how their desire and their hunger to work hard and to gain more has ultimately been a disservice to them because it's worn them out.

When you say gain more, I'm assuming there's a monetary aspect to that, but in what other ways does a person seek to gain more?

Well, I think it's tough, you know, because people say money doesn't make you happy. Right. But I think money makes. Doesn't really make the world go around. It makes, you know, even, even space go around. You know, when we're looking at billionaires trying to go out, you know, to new planets and things, I think money is just so essential now. I think we're no longer in an era where communities can sort of help people get somewhere. And there's more, you know, community development. If you just don't have the money, you really can achieve things. I think this is so true as well in the literary world. I know personally, for me, I've had quite an unorganized orthodox journey and I haven't been able to afford going to conferences or paying, you know, six, seven hundred dollars to do a few week workshop course or something like that. So it's always been really important to me to sort of think about how, you know, money is everything in a lot of ways. But it also means that we also have to be careful how far we take that.

I think that it's interesting what you were saying about the conferences and the networking and how that is expensive of not just the transportation, but the conference fee people have to pay for their own lunches and that kind of thing. And it's kind of the unspoken underside to a lot of literary communities. You said you had an unorthodox journey. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, of course. So my first ever article or publication, I should say was when I was 17. I had an article in the Kuwait Times called Half Kuwaiti come out. And it was sort of reflecting on my experiences of not being able to be considered a citizen because my mother is a Kuwaiti citizen and Kuwait is one of the last countries in the world and I believe the last of the gcc, the Gulf Cooperation Council, to not Allow the woman of their, you know, their female citizens to pass on their citizenship to their children if they marry foreign men. I think from that point on, I was quite driven by social activism. But my first publications in terms of poetry came out in Kuwait in 2019. I was in a magazine called Incan Oil, and that was about five years ago yesterday, I believe. And. And then I was in the show Bear Family Circus, which I believe is defunct now in the US and from that point on, I slowly started dripping through publications and things like that. But, yeah, I didn't have the. I didn't even want to be a writer, to be honest with you. I think it's just sort of happened naturally. And I. I just enjoyed writing and voicing my opinions, but I didn't. I don't have an mfa. I haven't had any mentors. I haven't gone to lots of workshops or gone to conferences or even really paid how much for, like, editorial support. I just, It. It's never really been a luxury I could sort of afford. So my writing journey, yeah, it's been quite unorthodox in that regard, but I think it's made me stronger for it.

I think that's interesting, the concept of teaching yourself and finding your own way. You said that you didn't want to be a writer. Did you have a concept of what a writer was? And you kind of were like, ah, I don't want that, or you just didn't even occur to you?

I don't really think it occurred to me. You know, I think I've always had a really strong interest in language and languages. I speak other languages, course, and I think that language has always just been a big part of my life. I like the way language sounds, the way it es and flows, the meaning of synonyms that can completely embolden context, for example. I definitely think for me, it was sort of like, I wrote because I wanted to write, and I still do. And in some ways I think that it has made me stronger as a writer and that I feel that I don't push the writing. And that way I don't have experienced writer's block. I just write when I feel comfortable to. So, yeah, it's definitely shaped my perspective as a writer.

So when you sit down and you start to write, what is it that drives you the most, do you think?

You know, I think it can be really hard sometimes, like, because I think as someone with such a mixed race background, you know, like, my. My grandmother is half Polish and half Scottish American. I grew up With Polish children, you, news and the food being made and, and my, you know, my great grandparents were quite recent immigrants, so their cultural influences have stuck down, you know, these last three generations, you know, and I look at my Arab Persian side, I look at my black side, I look at all these influences and I think when I was younger, it used to be more driven by trying to find a way to bridge those cultures and those backgrounds and those, and the languages that, you know, have impacted me as well. But I think now the older I get, the more I desire to write more fervently about the experiences of just a general degradation of society and the great deal of societal malaise that's just occurring en masse globally.

I want to talk more about that. But before that when you were talking, I was thinking about how the beautiful thing about what you're describing kind of being a self made writer coming up in your own way, is that you're free to go in whichever direction your writing takes you. Because it seems to me that some people who self identify as I am a writer, they have this constant pressure to produce. And the way you said it, you let your creativity and your interest drive what you're working on. I think that sounds like the best thing ever. I wanted to kind of loop back to this. The concept of the malaise. Where do you see that the most? Do you see it in conversations and what you read, what you see online, or maybe you see it everywhere? Where does it show up?

You know something? I think what's been really the most difficult thing for me is just seeing the lack of community. I say this in the literary community a lot. I've become quite vocal about it. I, I used to, my, my stance is I don't like to get political on my socials and I, I've avoided that for the most part. There has been one instance, but I've avoided it for the most part. And I said I don't like to get political because I think there is a lot of, of dissension that's going around that creates more divide and people are a lot of times unwilling to find compromise. Now I think as someone with a mixed background, as a child, as a product of divorce, and still lives in the Middle east and the experiences that come along with that, and being raised with multiple languages, religious backgrounds, etc. I've sort of been forced to find compromise whether I like it or not. And I think that. But I don't see that enough globally anymore. I don't see that enough in communities, especially in the literary community. It's, you know, it's my way or the highway or one way or the other. And I think it's really, really important to me to be able to sort of be able to discuss these things. But I find that a lot of people tend to be really unwilling, and I think that that's. That's a big part of that malaise, because I think if we're unwilling to work with one another and we're unwilling to find compromise, then, you know, we're just heading towards societal collapse. And I don't want to sound alarmist, but I think I have this. I have a BSc in Sociology, and I've loved Sociology since I was 14, and. And it's something that I've really capitalized on, including in the start of my master's. Now I think that, you know, we're headed towards a lot of disruption because people are unwilling to work together, and that malaise is just going to be accelerated.

It sounds like you didn't growing up because of the multiple cultures and maybe even identities that you were encountering within yourself and other people, that you didn't even have the choice to, you know, dig your heels in any one spot because you. It sounds like you didn't have, like, a spot. So you have a really unique and beautiful perspective on what it's like to be a human of the world and not just a human of a spot. That's really neat.

Thank you.

Let's talk a little bit about social media, because I know you have a social media background, and I'm wondering, how does social media work in your life? And you've been successful at growing social media accounts for businesses, so maybe you could talk a little bit about that, and we can kind of overlap that with the other idea of the malaise and the mixture.

Yeah, of course. So, you know, again, very unorthodox experience getting into social media as well. I volunteered for an Egyptian magazine called Milky Way, and I did their Twitter, and I had a conversation with their founder, and I said, hey, you know, like, the literary world's on Twitter. Why are we only on Instagram? We found success there. I'm happy to do it. I need experience. I was like, 19, and I was like, hey, let me do this. It was Covid. I was at home doing my Bachelor's. It's like, I have time. And through that I learned. Learned a lot. I learned about things like sort of what people like in the literary world, sort of what colors attract people, sort of looking at analytics and, you know, making sure that I'm applying the best, you know, post times, etc, blah, blah, blah. But I think as I moved on, those volunteering experiences really helped me. I worked with Kissing Dynamite, which I believe is now defunct as well, and that was really good. I really enjoyed my experience doing social media for the Kissing Dynamite because I also felt like I was valued by my boss. Even though it was volunteer work, I was really, really valued. I got a great reference and then later on I worked for Lupitalia as well and that was my first paid gig for social media, which was really cool. It was only a three month contract, but it was great. And then I just went on mostly to focus on my own journal and publishing house. Five done. And sort of really helping us grow, grow more. I think social media is something that's. That can be difficult. It can be quite difficult to manage because there's a lot of screen time and focus and trial and error that accompanies it. But I definitely think for me as a writer I learned my lessons after like the first two collections like chapbooks and like the novel. And so I was able to market my third chapbook, Half Read so much more as a result. So I do think in a lot of ways it's helped me be a bit more sellable as a writer and like reach more people as well.

Can you talk specifically about what you did that you believe made your efforts successful?

Well, in terms of getting more outreach for Halfbred, I think it was really being more visible, being more active and I think that's really the base of any social media work. But it was being more visible in ways that worked. It was being willing to read my writing out, be more willing to engage, push for interviews, push for reviews, engage with people on social media, link my stuff more, make ads. I made loads of Canva ads. I think at one point I was spending like a couple hours a week just shelling out loads and loads of ads and you know, and trying to do extra different things to like sort of link back to the cultural elements with the collection. So I definitely think it's just about putting in the hard work and effort. And I know that sounds really like easier said than done, but you have to trial and error so much to be successful in social media. So I definitely think those areas helped. Like I can say though, I have not made very much at all from my literary career. Half Bread actually did make like $200 or something, which was, which was great. It was a lot, you know, for a chat book I was really happy with that.

So, yeah, it's also exciting to know that it's out there and getting read. It sounds like one of your key points would be consistency. If you were going to suggest to an author, just be consistent. Go out and post regularly. When you were engaging, were you commenting on other people's posts or reposting their things? How did you do the engagement?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, I'm like, look, I think it's really important to engage with the community now, as much as I'm very frustrated with a lot of community areas in the literary world right now. Deeply, deeply frustrated by a lot of things that have been happening. But I definitely think that for me, it's important to set an example. Example. And it's the same way that, you know, my own press and journal, you know, the journal, you know, there was a big thing about ageism recently and about, you know, would your journal publish older people? And I thought that was so ironic because we've never factored an age in our. In our issue 17, which is. Which was our first paid issue ever, which was in March, I think we had like two or three writers over 70, all fantastic ladies who wrote some amazing things. And then in this issue, we had writers ranging from their early 20s all the way up to their 70s as well. And I think that, yeah, I feel like you have to engage with the community so you can understand not only what people want to read, but also how you can be a better literary citizen. Even though that word sounds a bit cliche, that phrase, but yeah, how do.

You think a person could select which platform they were going to use if they were just getting started with social media and they're like, I don't know where to start.

Art.

How could they decide?

Well, Tick Tock is great if you have really commercially sellable poetry, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that. I definitely personally feel that the writer, most of the writers I know myself, we write more like philosophical ramblings, like, you know, and. And, you know, more ideologically based writing. But there's a lot of poetry out there, especially pop culture poetry and pop culture writing in general, that some sells really well through TikTok. And I definitely think that there's a great market for especially younger audiences who are into more of those pop culture influences to find sort of, you know, they're following on TikTok. But Twitter is the way forward, I think, for a traditional sort of literary presence, or X. Excuse me. I definitely think that, yeah, it's the way that I think I've been able to become more seen.

Why do you think that Twitter now X X is such the constant with the literary community? Why that platform?

I think it's because in the early days of like this sort of like community forming online, it was just more approachable. I think that's, that's the truth. I think Twitter is, is a lot easier, so X, you know, is. It's just, it's a lot easier to manage because I think Instagram has certain different elements that can pump, make things a little more complex. And I also feel like TikTok, you know, is a lot of, of physical engagement. You know what I mean? Like people want to see your face, people want to interact with you more. Whereas on Twitter someone can quickly tweet out a random thought they're having and you know, it's out.

So yeah, I wonder if it's also because Twitter doesn't or X it does not require a photo, but obviously Instagram does and TikTok does.

Yes, yes. I think that that's a big thing as well. I think at the same time the literary world thrives off of ads made on Canva and photos and things like that because they're catchy and they're flashy. So I think it's complex.

But yeah, yeah, I think that tick tock has become a surprising element in the literary community. That is not.

I agree.

Yeah. And I think it, to me it looked like it happened suddenly, but it probably, I don't know. Do you think it happened suddenly, like in the space of about six to eight months? All of a sudden that. Or am I just seeing it wrong?

I think it did. No, I think it did. I think it's, you know, I think the whole, you know, Twitter potentially getting shut down or. X, sorry, that's going to be tough to fully, you know, switch over in my mind, I swear, for a lot of people. But yeah, I definitely think that, you know, X, the potential for getting shut down, the Elon Musk takeover, etc, you know, people were very like skittish about whether they should stay on there. A lot of people moved to Threads or even Facebook, which I think has been interesting. Interesting to me because I had a boss at the now defunct as well, fake kid Ink Lisa Ray, who used to always say to me like, you know, you need to get on Facebook, you need to do Facebook. She would say this non stop to me and I think I only valued it in the last year and she was so right. So Khaleesa, if you're listening to this, you were right. I think for writers over like 35ish, there's a massive community out there. I mean, they're like literary Pages with like 30,000 followers and like submission opportunity pages. Like, it's absolutely insane how many people are on Facebook. I didn't expect this. You know what I mean? So I definitely think that it's also very much about sort of the age groups and, you know, the demographics and things like that. So.

Yeah, yeah, that's. It's fascinating and as you said, it is really complex. It'll be interesting to see where it goes in the next couple years, even from where it is. Yeah. You mentioned some editorial experience. Let's talk about that. How does that inform your own creative writing?

Well, I have had a mixed bag of editorial experience. I've had some really good experiences where I've worked. I've had some less good experiences. That's what I'll say. I think that it's informed me in a few ways, A. It's taught me to have a lot more empathy and understanding of people and writers. It's also taught me about sort of the stuff that. That people want to read and how they want to read it. But it's also taught me a little bit about really the ways in which the community works and sort of the different sort of trends in terms of things like word economy, metaphor usage, you know, the sort of general sentiment, you know, going back to, like, that malaise aspect, for example, the general sentiment, the different people feel, etc. I definitely think my editorial experience has been more about giving back to the community. But I also feel that it's informed my own writing because I feel that I learned by reading other people's work and having to be critical, having to write like editorial feedback or reader feedback and really work to understand their authorial intent. So, personally, I think my editorial experiences has predominantly been good. But what I will say is I've learned that there is an absence of a lot of ethical practices in the literary community. And I'm making sure that at Fahmidan, you know, we keep things as transparent as possible. You know, I mean, I just met with my staff. Well, some of them turned up because all of them were busy at the timing. But we discussed, you know, for example, our finances, how much we've been making, you know, where we're in the green, where we're in the red. How are we putting that money to you? You know, being an editor at a variety of places has taught me about, in some ways, the way I want to do things and In a lot of ways as well. How I don't want to do things. So I'm really grateful for those experiences.

What are a couple of things that, you know, you don't want to do?

Oh, my, there's so many. But I'll leave it to two or three. One thing is transparency. A big thing is transparency and being honest. And not one place I worked at was. I'm absolutely obsessed with editorial, editorial style and like setting a house style of the way they. And like insisting on edits, like incessant edits for no reason. And I think, you know, B, I respect myself at Fahmidan. You know, most of them are volunteer. I pay out of pocket right now for some of the two staff that we pay, our managing editor and our poetry editor. And I think for me it's just about valuing people. It's not just about the finances. It's about like, you know, are you communicating? Are you, are you being honest? Are you sharing details with people? Are you just making decisions randomly? Or are you, you know, do you want a team or do you want a single entrepreneur? Like, you know, a singular editor running everything with a bunch of people doing work without any remuneration? You know, I think another aspect for me is I don't believe in penalizing people for challenging my opinions. And that's a very big thing I've experienced, especially as a. As a 23 year old. Despite my publication history and my experience, I'm often talked down to a lot by predominantly older American male editors. And I don't understand why. I love working with women because female editors know where it's at. You know, there's that mutual respect and that's why Fahmidan is. We've always had a majority female editorial staff. I think that the experiences I've had have been really tough because they've crystallized to me that there's a sort of, sort of power dynamic make people develop. And I don't ever want that. I want people to feel comfortable to disagree with me and to give me their opinions. And I'm going to listen and try to do what I can to sort of meet them at least halfway, if not be won over by what they're saying.

So, yeah, are some of these issues you're talking about editorial decisions about which pieces to accept and which ones not to accept?

A little bit. But I would say it's more about communication and hostile work environments and over criticism and just making editors feel really like their work isn't valued. And I think that, you know, There's a really fine line because a lot of what the literary world does is very much volunteer based. There just isn't a lot of money in the community, you know, But I think treating people with respect, especially people who've spent years as part of their team or have, you know, willingly donated a lot of time and effort, you know, I think is. Is a good start.

One of the things I'm thinking about listening to you is how when you meet a writer, it's always amazing how much they know. And every writer knows about a bunch of different stuff that the other writer next to them may not know because we've all had such different experiences. And so I've learned over time, you just never underestimate what somebody knows because they probably know a whole ton of cool, interesting things, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so to devalue someone, even without asking them any questions or digging in to find out where their perspective is coming from is. I could see how that would be a really disheartening experience. Because when you're there as a volunteer or a low paid person, which is, you know, also volunteer, that's your what. What you want most is to contribute and to be part of the community in a positive, successful way.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Well, it's been great talking to you. I could keep talking about this for another half an hour, but sadly we got to close it out. So if people want to find you online, where is a good place for them to come and find you?

You can find me on Twitter or Instagram with the same name. It's R Arthurriger. I'm also on TikTok as well.

All right, awesome. Well, we'll be sure to include those links in the show notes so that people can come and find you. Thanks a lot for joining me today. It's been great talking to you.

Thank you so much, Melissa. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Thanks for stopping by the audio Town square of the Washington Square Review. Until next time, this has been Washington Square on air from Lansing Community College. To find out more about our writers, community and literary journal, visit lcc. Edu WSL Writing is messy, but do it anyway.

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