[00:00:00] Eric Goranson: It's around the house. So, Walt, I got a question for you. If you were, let's put you on a homeowner's shoes here right now. If you are getting ready to maybe build an ADU up back or, or do an addition or something like that, do you run it? Where would you start looking for a w B whether it was just a barrier to do your

[00:00:25] Walt Tamala: house with?

[00:00:26] Walt Tamala: Um, my first conversation's gonna be with my contractor and. Being as a contractor may have a system that they just enjoy using they're comfortable using or their team's already set up to use. Um, and then I would go back and research that product and make sure that, you know, what it sounded like it was a reasonable product, uh, to me as well.

[00:00:45] Walt Tamala: Um, I find that a lot of, of failures in these, uh, projects come because the homeowner's like, oh, you know what? I researched this. Uh, and I really like this product when it comes to remodeling and renovating your home. There is a lot to know [00:01:00] though. We've got you covered. This is around the house.

[00:01:05] Eric Goranson: Welcome to around the house with Eric G and Caroline B your OneStop shop for home improvement, interior design and construction.

[00:01:14] Eric Goranson: Hey Caroline, how are you today?

[00:01:15] Caroline Blazovsky: Hello, everybody so excited for our guest today. He's always. Hi brother.

[00:01:22] Eric Goranson: From another mother, Walt Samala T and T general contracting and a guy that I share the stage with plenty of time, educating contractors. Welcome back to around the house. My brother, Eric, Caroline.

[00:01:35] Eric Goranson: Thanks so much. I

[00:01:36] Walt Tamala: appreciate being here. And you having me back on

[00:01:39] Eric Goranson: this is always fun, right? Caroline.

[00:01:41] Caroline Blazovsky: I love his expertise and I love his building science experience. So to me it's like always a learning experience, Walt. So.

[00:01:51] Walt Tamala: Uh, no, thank you. No, I, I love talking about this stuff and, and you know, how important it is.

[00:01:55] Walt Tamala: Uh, while we're out there, we, we see so many good things that are being done and so [00:02:00] many bad things. And, you know, I chalk off half the bad things to people, just not knowing how to do it. Right. So the more we're having these conversations, the better off our, our whole industry is.

[00:02:08] Eric Goranson: Absolutely. And today I wanna talk about house wraps or what other people are in the industry.

[00:02:14] Eric Goranson: Call weather resistant barriers. And the difference is, and this is not by any means any kind of a sponsor influenced segment. This is something that we're gonna, there are no sacred cows here. We're gonna talk about the differences between brands and stuff out there that we see from our perspective. So we don't have anybody sitting in here going, Hey, pitch us do this, which is kind of the basis of around the house anyway.

[00:02:37] Eric Goranson: But, uh, we're just gonna have an honest conversation that why we're not bringing in a spokesperson from a, a company right now to talk about it. We're bringing in an. That teaches this stuff for many different

[00:02:48] Walt Tamala: brands. Yeah. I mean, there are so many different brands that are out there, so many different options.

[00:02:53] Walt Tamala: Um, Eric, I don't know about you guys in, in your, uh, neck of the woods in the country here. I, I know we're on, uh, [00:03:00] opposite coast in Carolina. We share the same coast, but we're still a few hours away from each other. Um, but there's so many different opportunities, whether. Buying from a, a big box store, or if you're buying from your local lumber yard to, um, you know, Rockies or, or anything, it's like, you know, well, which one should I be using and why?

[00:03:19] Walt Tamala: And with today's day and age, one of the big answers is the system that you can actually get. Right. And what's available where you're at. And, and do they sell the whole package? Not just the roll. Do they sell the tape? Do they sell the Fasten? Do they sell the adhesives? Everything that go along with.

[00:03:37] Walt Tamala: Because just that supply chain for the last two years has really shrunk, uh, for a lot of areas.

[00:03:44] Eric Goranson: And,

[00:03:44] Caroline Blazovsky: and when we're talking about house wraps too, like, so we can think about it as a whole project, if somebody were to build right to start a new build, but then we also have the issue of. Like I just did.

[00:03:53] Caroline Blazovsky: We're replacing a window, we're replacing a door. We're putting in something we're changing a part of the house. So do you stay consistent with [00:04:00] the original house wrap you had? Like from my, you know, my home, I had a felt paper. Right. I didn't have a Tyvac or if you have Tyvac, do you go to another type of system?

[00:04:08] Caroline Blazovsky: So I'd love to get your take on that. Like when you open up a big can of worms at the house, what do you stay with? What you consistently have, or do you. .

[00:04:17] Walt Tamala: Yeah. I find that, um, you know, being in Massachusetts, uh, probably 80%, 75 to 80% of my work is remodel. And we're dealing with old housing inventory. Um, so a lot of the times when we rip off that exterior cladding, you know, we don't know what to expect, what we're gonna find if it's just, um, tar paper, uh, if it was some ROSN paper, um, if there's nothing there, because at that point in time, they're here.

[00:04:42] Walt Tamala: Like, Hey, let the air flow through the house. Houses need to breathe. Let it, it breathe. um, yes, let it breathe. I can't tell you how many times we've had that conversation. Oh yeah. Uh, here in new. But I find that, um, my go-to is always, uh, making sure that that door, that window is sealed [00:05:00] properly to the sheathing, so that you're going direct to the plywood, the wood, uh, the tongue groove, whatever it is, make sure that it's sealed tight to that first.

[00:05:08] Walt Tamala: And then if you had felt paper integrate, uh, uh, another WRB, whether it is a, a wrap, uh, cuz that's probably the easiest and the most accessible to, to folks. Um, or if they have a peel and stick product, um, that they could use even an ice and water. I see a lot of folks that will just grab some ice and water.

[00:05:26] Walt Tamala: That's also used her roofing mm-hmm to seal whatever sheathing has been exposed and then have their old felt paper sit over the top of that. Um, the big thing when it comes to that is your old stuff should always overlap the new stuff. So water watersheds properly. And then anything that could be coming from above, which is hitting your old, uh, w B your, your fell paper in your con uh, your situation then rolls on top of what you put down new and sheds off onto the ground.

[00:05:52] Walt Tamala: Uh, that way, again, that water has no way of getting behind it and back into the building. that makes

[00:05:57] Eric Goranson: sense. That makes sense. So [00:06:00] Walt, you see out there and especially out here on the west coast, where I'm at, this is something that in the Pacific Northwest where I'm located, ends up being a huge problem.

[00:06:08] Eric Goranson: We have a lot of six story multi-use residential slash you know, commercial buildings out there, or even condo units that are three or four stories high, but they start framing here in the rainy season in October. And by the time they get it framed out it's December and they're starting to throw the roof on and all the OSB or plywood on the outside of that is black.

[00:06:35] Eric Goranson: And then I drive by the next week and they've got guys out there on Lyfts wrapping around. You know, whatever brand house rapid could be. Tyvec it could be a, a home Depot or Lowe's branded product or, or any of the other dozen companies out there. And I always shake my head and go, wow, we are trapping all of that quote unquote junk that is mold mildew [00:07:00] or whatever, contaminations on the outside of that, right inside the building, inside the living area.

[00:07:06] Walt Tamala: Uh, you, you know what that terminology's called, right? You can't see it from my house. I mean, it's terrible. Uh, once it's covered, it's like, no, that WRB is doing its job, but do you really want to cover something that has been sitting for that long? Even though the manufacturer says, Hey, it has a 30 or 60 day exposure ratio that's to UVS and everything else.

[00:07:26] Walt Tamala: That's not to the moisture comp uh, you know, climate and everything else. And then if you have a really rainy season, like you guys. I mean, come on, you need to have a w B that's probably integrated like the zip system, you know, so that as it's being installed, it's being water tight and waterproofed at the same point in time.

[00:07:42] Walt Tamala: Yeah. Um, other areas, if you don't have that kind of moisture, um, you can get away with using, you know, the regular wraps and everything else. And if you're in sunny, California, uh, where, you know, you're down in San Diego, you're not getting a ton of rain, then go right ahead. You. Use your Tyvec your Thai pars.

[00:07:59] Walt Tamala: [00:08:00] Um, you know, there's so many different wraps and whatever ones are accessible to you. Go ahead. But, you know, Don't let the product sit there and test it to see if, oh, didn't it last 190 days, a hundred, you know, 280 days. I mean, come on, we gotta use a little built fast. You do

[00:08:14] Eric Goranson: that with your milk in the fridge.

[00:08:16] Eric Goranson: That's what I always say. Do you do that with your milk in the fridge? Do you do you go, Hey, that's 10 days past. It's used by a date. Wonder how good this is and pour it across your Wheaties in the morning. Now you doubt don't do it with your house wrap.

[00:08:30] Caroline Blazovsky: Well, you know, what's interesting. Um, I have contractors working on my house and, and they were telling Eric and I had Eric on speaker that even the plywood now they literally got a little bit of moisture and some rain and the plywood started to delaminate and sort of come apart.

[00:08:44] Caroline Blazovsky: So the glues and things that they're using, whether it's because they're, you know, What we call a greener or, I mean, maybe they're using less of it. Maybe the product manufacturing isn't so great anymore because of, you know, quality control, who knows. But they said that even in the Northeast with a little bit of rain, these things are starting [00:09:00] to come.

[00:09:01] Caroline Blazovsky: So I found that kind of interesting. Yeah. That, you

[00:09:03] Walt Tamala: know, it's yeah. We're definitely seeing that as well. And, and not necessarily on, on our own projects because obviously, you know, we're crossing our T's and.in our eyes and, and whether they're tightening right away, but we've definitely seen it. Um, some of the feedback that I've got Caroline is that, um, due to.

[00:09:18] Walt Tamala: Outsourcing it, and you know, the lack of a lot of the resins in, uh, in the industry right now, um, they've substituted and, you know, they did testing. They, you know, they're trying to do their best to make sure that what they're putting out was consistent with their original products, but a lot of these resins and everything else just aren't holding up or aren't testing out the way they thought they were going to, but they had to do something to.

[00:09:40] Walt Tamala: Production product out there. Yep. Yeah, you gotta, you know, there was so much demand for it. Um, look at what the cost of plywood went up to. I mean, in our area, we're paying up to $80 a sheet for half inch plywood. I mean, it was crazy all these tos and, and everything else about, you know, they'll trade you a Corvette for a sheet of plywood, you know, they weren't wrong.[00:10:00]

[00:10:00] Walt Tamala: No, no, it's crazy. So, so I get it to a point. Um, but that means we've gotta do our due diligence as the installers and the contractors to make sure, you know, we're being even more careful and cautious and that install goes smooth and we're taking care of and covering that product as soon as possible. So it's not exposed to the elements and everything else.

[00:10:20] Eric Goranson: So, Walt, I got a question for you. If you were, let's put you on a homeowner. Shoes here right now. If you are getting ready to maybe build an ADU up back or, or do an addition or something like that, do you run in, where would you start looking for a w B whether its just a barrier to do your house with?

[00:10:42] Walt Tamala: Um, my first conversation's gonna be with my contractor and the reason being as a contractor may have a system that they just enjoy using they're comfortable using or their team's already set up to use.

[00:10:54] Walt Tamala: Um, and then I would go back and research that product and make sure that, you know, what it sounded like it was a, a reasonable [00:11:00] product, uh, to me as well. Um, I find that a lot of, of failures in these, uh, projects. Come because the homeowner's like, oh, you know what? I researched this. Uh, and I really like this product and the builder's like, yeah, I've heard of that product.

[00:11:14] Walt Tamala: I don't use it. I use this instead. But yeah, if that's what you want, I'll use it. No problem. Yeah. Um, you got a great example of a very good friend of mine. Who's the national rep for. Uh, a, a product, um, worldwide, um, that, uh, you know, he reps here in the us and he did an, uh, a build out, uh, six years ago and now they're adding onto it.

[00:11:36] Walt Tamala: And, um, he just tore the signing off himself with his kids. They wanted to do a nice summer project cuz he was around, uh, in the past he was traveling a lot. And uh, back when he did it, he asked for blue skin mm-hmm . So as he's tearing apart, this build out, you know, the front of the building was all done in blue.

[00:11:52] Walt Tamala: But the other three sides after he started travel were all done with Ty park and I'm like, oh my God. And he's like, why would they do [00:12:00] this? And I'm be like, well, blue skin was new to the market and the builder and his team probably just didn't know how to use it. Yeah. Right. And, and they struggles make it look good and, and to apply it properly.

[00:12:09] Walt Tamala: So the minute that the front was done and they ran outta the materials that they, they had there, they just ordered TA. Yep. Now that probably would've been fine if they went through and you now have a completely sealed WRB with blue skin, right? Yep. And now the type R they rolled it out. They never taped any of the sea.

[00:12:24] Walt Tamala: They didn't make it an air barrier. They didn't do anything to integrate it into the other system. And you know what? Those two products actually can be integrated to a point because acrylic basis and such as far as the tapes go. But it's like, what if they weren't compatible one could eat the other product up.

[00:12:41] Walt Tamala: So, yeah, I think it's really, really important to, to figure out what your contractor uses and then make sure that they're comfortable using whatever product you may have researched that you felt is a better product. So make sure you, you find that contractor that you're comfortable working with. Is listening to you.

[00:12:58] Walt Tamala: You

[00:12:58] Caroline Blazovsky: both know so much [00:13:00] about zip systems. And so like a lot of our audience may not. So explain to them over the years, how this has changed, right. How we had, let's say OSB, MDF plywood with the felt barrier. And now we've gone to these zip systems and what they are and how they protect the homeowner.

[00:13:15] Walt Tamala: Eric, you wanna jump on that?

[00:13:17] Eric Goranson: I can jump on that one. So, you know, it's, it used to be, you know, in my, in the seventies you would see just as new as that. You'd see a lot of just people. Out there they'd frame the house up. They'd literally tack that, uh, staple on that, uh, felt paper, which is just roofing felt right on the studs. Put the T one 11 right along that.

[00:13:37] Eric Goranson: And all of a sudden you're good to go and you're cruising, you're caulking it in you're pain it, and there you go. And then you started seeing house wraps come in, you know, which was kind of the next thing. And you saw like the DuPont, the XX, you know, that kind of stuff that came in. And you'd see it just get stapled around, but it wasn't really, you didn't see the [00:14:00] tapes being used by most of the contractors mm-hmm it was just a, okay.

[00:14:03] Eric Goranson: We got the house wrap

[00:14:04] Caroline Blazovsky: lab. Right. And, and they had a lot of problems cuz some of those plastic wraps weren't breathable. They went with just a solid plastic at first, remember it wasn't perforated. And then they had all this sweating and mold and you were just like in a solid plastic fishbowl. And then they said, oopsy.

[00:14:19] Caroline Blazovsky: We need to have some breathability. So then they went to more vapor permeable substances.

[00:14:25] Eric Goranson: I mean, there was a time when I remember they were teaching to take just sheets of plastic on the inside of the house. Wow. And staple it up. Remember that before you put the drywall up for energy efficiency. And I remember sitting in a class going really, is that what we're doing?

[00:14:45] Eric Goranson: Where,

[00:14:45] Walt Tamala: where does the vapor barrier belong? And is that the same thing as a WRB? No, no, that's a whole nother topic, right? Yeah, because that's exactly what you're talking about. Eric is an interior vapor barrier and it's like, I still have code arguments with code [00:15:00] enforcement officials up here that an interior.

[00:15:02] Walt Tamala: Vapor barrier is not a good idea. Yeah. Uh, so we actually had to do classes on that. Um, we do a vapor open, so I do no vapor barrier. Mm-hmm you know, so just for the people listening out there only one vapor barrier on a house, no matter where it is on the interior of the x-ray, you can only have one.

[00:15:18] Walt Tamala: Otherwise you're gonna trap moisture and that's

[00:15:20] Eric Goranson: a mold sandwich with two pieces of vapor bear under this side. You

[00:15:24] Walt Tamala: better believe me when I'm in business, a WRB yeah, a WRB or an air barrier. You can have multiple layers if you want to. Uh, because they're permeable, they allow air and moisture to pass through it.

[00:15:36] Walt Tamala: Um, so that you're never gonna trap it and cause that, that mold

[00:15:40] Eric Goranson: problem. Amen. I mean, that's it. And if you do the double vapor barrier. That's money for Caroline . I like ,

[00:15:50] Caroline Blazovsky: I'm coming in with mold testing and you're gonna fail. You're gonna have

[00:15:54] Eric Goranson: mold in your wallet. And one thing, Walt, that I've seen, you know, and of course we do, we have continued to evolve and now you're getting into the [00:16:00] zip system, but.

[00:16:01] Eric Goranson: You know, it wasn't that long ago that I was running into stuff. And this is by no means a knock on Tyvac, but I would see in the Pacific Northwest, a lot of Cedar shingles and things like that, people would put the Tyvac up, we'd go in and do a remodel and you'd tear it off. And you're like, wow, what shredded?

[00:16:19] Eric Goranson: This w WRB behind it. And you'd see that with the new products.

[00:16:25] Walt Tamala: There's so many different chemicals that are in products and, and for your, uh, exact, um, example there, uh, all the coastal areas where you're using Cedar shakes or, or they're required, uh, when they're dipped a lot of the oils, the resins and everything else that come out of the Cedar will actually eat a wrap.

[00:16:45] Walt Tamala: Really. That's interesting and tieback happy to be one of the best, the highest per rating, um, house wraps out. Uh, I, I, I like the product. I've used it for many, many years, but anytime I had Cedar shakes that were being direct applied, uh, a lot of folks thought it was the [00:17:00] nail or the corrosion, uh, uh, to the Galvins nation of the nails.

[00:17:04] Walt Tamala: But it is actually, uh, the residents and everything else in the Cedar that then starts to tear that that's incredible.

[00:17:10] Caroline Blazovsky: Cause I have a Cedar house, so I find it I've always, and I'm bad cuz I've always used, felt my whole house has been it, but I've also do flashing and all kinds of mills aluminum and you know, things like that, the extra things that people don't do.

[00:17:20] Caroline Blazovsky: But. Yeah, that's interesting. I'm glad I never .

[00:17:24] Eric Goranson: Yeah. And it's not the nails cuz I mean, when you pull that off and it looks like it's just been sitting out in the weather for 20 years, right? It's shredded. It looks like an old tarp that's set outside for two decades.

[00:17:38] Walt Tamala: It really looks like it was on the outside of the building instead of behind the, the, the Sid.

[00:17:43] Walt Tamala: and, uh, Caroline, you brought up a great point felt is a, a fantastic product to put underneath it because of the oil base and, and just how durable that product is. Mm-hmm that it resists all of the residents that are then in that Cedar shake. Yeah. That's what I use. So that's, that's a great a WRB for behind [00:18:00] it, or you're usually doubling up your WRB, uh, that way one's taking a beating and, and absorbing all those.

[00:18:06] Walt Tamala: And the one behind it is then protecting, uh, the structure. Yeah.

[00:18:10] Eric Goranson: But then you start getting into okay. You've got zip system and some of these other pieces out here and, and, you know, I like DuPont. I like zip. These are all great, you know, Huber, great people out there, but now you've got products now where it's built into the, into the plywood, into the sheathing system, which is another whole different way of doing

[00:18:29] Walt Tamala: it.

[00:18:31] Walt Tamala: Yeah. And as all, all those fewer guys will tell you and our folks will tell you is that coating is impregnated into the skin of that OSB. Um, and I know there's been so many tests and so many controversial, uh, discussions about over penetration with a nail and how mu how much moisture then gets into that OSB.

[00:18:50] Walt Tamala: Uh, because over driven nails can be an issue, no matter what you're doing. Uh, that's why all these WBS, uh, the wraps and everything else have cap wraps so that the staple doesn't [00:19:00] penetrate and go too far through. Um, so I know that, you know, Huber's done a good job at, at doing their testing and figuring this stuff out, uh, their seam tapes and everything else bond very well.

[00:19:10] Walt Tamala: That acrylic based tape is probably one of the best on the market. Um, and all of these, I don't care what system you're using. I want people to know this and just remember, this is they're all pressure release tapes. Yes. If you don't put 30 pounds of pressure on any of these tapes, you could walk away and, uh, a year later pull siding off and those, all that tape will have released.

[00:19:33] Walt Tamala: You'll have bubbles or they'll have peeled right off because they just didn't have enough pressure to bond the, and, and get an adhesion to that surface. So for that,

[00:19:41] Eric Goranson: so if you have a contractor out there working, installing this and they don't have a roller in their hand, they're not doing it

[00:19:48] Walt Tamala: right.

[00:19:49] Walt Tamala: Absolutely. I mean, everybody will, I'll go out to my own job sites and they'll be, I'll be like, Hey, where's your speed grower. Is that in your pouch? Is that where you're using? Because I don't like the sharp edge of that. You could cut and tear some tape, [00:20:00] especially if you're on like the inside corner, um, where the, the two house wraps meet and you know, the siding's gonna get butted to each other.

[00:20:07] Walt Tamala: Um, that's a, that's a troubled area. I go, where's your tuck tool? Where's your roller because that's the only way you're gonna get that pressure. And they're like, oh, I use the Palm in my hand. Cause you told me I can get 30 pounds of pressure on the Palm of my hand. And be like, yes. And then you'll walk away from the job site with 450 S slivers from the day but you go, haven't tried that.

[00:20:23] Walt Tamala: I just no be safe, be, be smart. And you just have a roller take your hammer out of your pouch and put the roller in. It goes in the same holder. So explain

[00:20:31] Caroline Blazovsky: to me, you guys is, is it it's all in one now with the zip? Correct. So the, your, let's say in replace of your fell paper, you're gonna have the zip system and it's actually connected to the OSB.

[00:20:41] Caroline Blazovsky: It comes in one panel. So there's no, yeah, it's all Al. No more. Yep. That's exactly no more piece of plywood or just OSB, and then you've gotta wrap it and then you connect these two. So as they go up, just like you would install plywood and you tape between them, is that what happens? Yeah.

[00:20:59] Walt Tamala: Tape over the top of [00:21:00] 'em.

[00:21:00] Walt Tamala: So you're gonna wanna get to two to three inches of tape on each side of that, um, scene. Um, and that way it has plenty of surface area to bond. Um, and then, uh, same thing happens as you're flashing. Think of it this way. You put the two bottom sheets on yeah. Wherever that seam is vertically. You're gonna tape that seam.

[00:21:17] Walt Tamala: Okay. Now when your next two sheets go on top of it, you're gonna tape that horizontal seam, cuz you still want the taping to be water shedding, the proper direction, the upper tape overlapping onto the lower tape. Um, and then again, as just as you carry up the wall, uh, you just keep taping those seams in that pattern.

[00:21:34] Walt Tamala: Um, And as long as long as you're rolling it, uh, by the end of that day, that, that wall that you just put up is water tight from the outside. Hmm.

[00:21:42] Eric Goranson: Which is great. And then the other thing with that too, which is it's very interesting is you have to be careful with how tight you put these sheets together.

[00:21:50] Eric Goranson: When you're framing it up. You've gotta give a little space in there. And I know so many people go, oh, I'm just gonna get it just super tight. That's not the answer sometimes. [00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Walt Tamala: Eric. I was on a job site down in, uh, Virginia. Uh, we were visiting with another builder and he's doing like 80 condos. And literally he is like, Walt, he goes, this, the workforce is a little tough right now.

[00:22:14] Walt Tamala: He goes, you know, everybody knows that eight inch spacing in between these panels up to a quarter inch max, because it is still wood. It's still gonna breathe. It's still gonna shrink and expand. Uh, he goes, but look at the front of this. He goes, it's super tight. Like we have no tape up yet. They come and tape afterwards.

[00:22:30] Walt Tamala: I was like, all right, I get that. You know, I don't mind having two different crews if your framer just wants to run and gun, let 'em. But as long as you have someone coming back, that's more waterproofing and, and making sure the tape goes on properly and everything sealed and caulking and stuff. Um, but these panels were all tight.

[00:22:45] Walt Tamala: And then when you walk to the back of the building, because it's three stories, there are two inch strips of zip. Wow. And they're like, we literally just tape over the top of it because we use six inch tape instead of four I'm like that defeats the whole [00:23:00] purpose. Yeah. So no miss it. So yes, there, there are tolerances and you gotta, you gotta read the instructions and you gotta pay attention to it because.

[00:23:09] Walt Tamala: These tapes are great, but they're

[00:23:10] Eric Goranson: not that good. . Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's the key too. I mean, you know, I can't tell you how many times that, uh, I was down visiting our friend David Applebaum, who shows up on the, on the show a lot here in comments, on social media. We were in front of his old condo and I'm standing out there looking at this and we're down in California and I'm looking up going, what are they doing?

[00:23:32] Eric Goranson: They had built Walt, these three kind of town homes all in a row, but they had a firewall in between them. So there was a six inch gap between the buildings they had. Tyvec when they tilted the walls up. Okay. But they couldn't cite it and they ended up citing, but it left this huge gap in there. That was a six inch gap between the buildings.

[00:23:55] Eric Goranson: It was the weirdest thing. All the windows were done incorrectly. It was [00:24:00] not flashed. Right. They had actually had pre-done the house wrap around the windows and left it there mm-hmm . But when they came back over and started wrapping it, the flashing and everything was under the house wrap, not over it. Oh, okay.

[00:24:15] Eric Goranson: So any water that got through that was gonna go now under the house trap? Not

[00:24:20] Walt Tamala: over, yeah. To the, to the head of the window. Yeah. Yep. Underneath the flashing.

[00:24:24] Eric Goranson: And so they were directing the water inside, not. .

[00:24:28] Walt Tamala: Yeah, I, you know, and Eric, I've seen, I've seen some gaps in my life, but, uh, I only use up to like a one inch backer rod.

[00:24:37] Walt Tamala: no, I haven't seen a six inch backer rod yet. My goodness. Oh my God.

[00:24:42] Eric Goranson: It's like just a hole. Yeah. Yeah, but you know, Southern California, they might get away with that. But up here, you know, in, in a month or two, any water gets behind that. You gotta, you got a hot mass, but

[00:24:54] Caroline Blazovsky: even though Southern California people, yeah.

[00:24:55] Caroline Blazovsky: I have so many clients now. They're all having mold problems. Like my last six [00:25:00] clients have been from Los Angeles or surrounding areas within LA county. And with massive mold comes in crawl spaces, basements, and at. And like, I just, and then I, then I start talking to them and I'm checking the relative humidity in the.

[00:25:14] Caroline Blazovsky: And they're running like 60% relative humidity, like right outside LA county. Oh my God. And that's weird to me. So there has to be some kind of climate stuff going on because they typically did not have that kind of humidity there. And I know that's happening in San Francisco as well and other places, but, um, and then of course, because of the fires they're building, you know, they have to, they're changing all the roofing and it's not contracting and expanding.

[00:25:36] Caroline Blazovsky: They stop the old shingled roofs that were wood in California. Yeah. You guys would expand and contract with the heat. So now they're using asphalt. And we're seeing all this moisture condensation getting, you know, happening because the addicts are getting so hot and the first floors are cold with air conditioning.

[00:25:50] Caroline Blazovsky: So everybody's got mold doesn't matter where you're at anymore.

[00:25:55] Walt Tamala: Yeah. It all comes down to the assembly. Right. And I mean, I know we're just talking RBS, but you bring up a [00:26:00] great point. Uh, you know, that becomes our thermal barrier. Uh, you know, you got your WRB, you have your air barrier, your weather barrier.

[00:26:07] Walt Tamala: You know, that thermal barrier is such a key component because if you can't manage the condition spaces and you allow any of that to happen to come into the unconditional space, you're gonna have issues. Mm-hmm major issues. And you

[00:26:20] Eric Goranson: know, my opinion, California is fairly lax on waterproofing compared to where I'm located.

[00:26:26] Eric Goranson: Mm-hmm , you know, that you can still hop tar mop, a shower. and you know, and I, I don't see that anywhere up here. I, I could, if I wanted to do it, I don't know who I'd call. I'd have to get a roofing company to come by to do it. So you're seeing where a lot of their stuff, their ventilation, a lot of that stuff is kinda behind the eight ball compared to other areas.

[00:26:48] Eric Goranson: And I think that's reflecting in what Caroline, which you're dealing with and you see a lot of slab on grade. You see water leaking through shower pans, into that slab. And so now it's soaking up that water [00:27:00] or it's showing up in another area, you know, it's, it's one of those things that, that water, you could have a, a, a slab on gray home and the shower Pan's leaking.

[00:27:09] Eric Goranson: Well, it's going into the, into the pad area and it can pop up in a crack, in a bedroom. And so all of a sudden you've got wet carpet, you know, 10 feet away, and it's all coming outta the shower. But it's showing up on a crack in the bedroom, down the, down the hallway. And in California,

[00:27:23] Caroline Blazovsky: they have all the mountain, you know, the mountain areas.

[00:27:25] Caroline Blazovsky: So a lot of these houses are built right into the side of a mountain side. So you've got something that's under, you know, subgrade what, you know, slightly subgrade because of the mountain and then the other side's outside. So you're getting those different differentials in temperature that happen from the cooler ground versus the hot air temperature.

[00:27:41] Caroline Blazovsky: So that could be an issue too.

[00:27:42] Walt Tamala: Yeah. Yeah. And. and how do you, how do you incorporate your WRB into that model right there? Right. So the rear of your house is built into a mountain, so it's all concrete, it's pinned. Um, and then, you know, a lot of builders will then take in, put their w R B, even if it's a wrap at that [00:28:00] point in time, over their framed portion.

[00:28:03] Walt Tamala: Some of them are sealing it to the concrete, which is their rear wall mm-hmm , uh, and then cladding or, or, you know, doing some kind of a siding over the top of it. Um, but how, how do you really get a good bond and adhesion to that? Yeah, I mean, Uh, I've seen some builders now, uh, that are using fluid applied over the entire exterior of their buildings, which is also a w B.

[00:28:23] Walt Tamala: Yeah. And that's an expensive one, but it's one where it bonds to concrete, to wood, um, it, everything, and it just makes it one, uh, continuous leg. So if you

[00:28:33] Eric Goranson: answered the question right there, that's kind of what you'd have to do in that situation. And a

[00:28:37] Caroline Blazovsky: lot of these people don't wanna spend the money Wal that becomes the issue too.

[00:28:40] Caroline Blazovsky: Like they're blown out, out the water at the cost of their remediation, and then they've gotta. You don't say they had their HVAC down there. So you're looking at 30,000 for a new HVAC system. And then you're looking at molder mediation, and then you're looking at any, you know, let's say carpentry work, you have to do.

[00:28:55] Caroline Blazovsky: And then when you say, oh, wait, you've gotta fix your moisture or thermal problem. They're like, what? I [00:29:00] don't wanna do that. They're like, what are you talking about?

[00:29:02] Walt Tamala: And it's kind of easy for the three of us to sit back and be like, wow, it's crazy that they would not spend their money on these control layers, which are the most important part of the house, whether it's the insulation, the WRB the components that you don't get to see, because if these are done right.

[00:29:17] Walt Tamala: Then all of a sudden, maybe that HVAC is a $20,000 system instead of a 30. Right. That's true. Um, but the reality is like they still want their granite or Corian, quartz tops. They want the things that look nice and they want the components that just make it feel like home. Uh, and I think that's the biggest challenge we have is educating our homeowners that, you know, you've gotta start with good structure, good bones.

[00:29:40] Walt Tamala: We always say that when I walk so true. Right. You know, the bones are good in Eric. Can I

[00:29:44] Caroline Blazovsky: say that all the time? We're like, our houses are good bones.

[00:29:47] Eric Goranson: like,

[00:29:48] Walt Tamala: yep. Right. Right. Well, so yeah. And that for me goes to pulling some of the siding off when you're, we're looking for an inspection or a trim board seeing what's underneath.

[00:29:57] Walt Tamala: So you kind of know what you're getting yourself [00:30:00] into.

[00:30:00] Eric Goranson: Yeah, no question. And you know, that's one of the things too, that I learned a lot when you and I were on the stage down at the, our friends down at EBC, the Southeastern building conference down there. Mm-hmm , you know, I had not worked a lot with Zep.

[00:30:12] Eric Goranson: That is something that was new to me. And they brought up, you know, in, in the seminars that things that I don't deal without on the west coast, you know, hurricane force wins. One of the advantages of that product is if you put that up there as Ruth's, she, you know, sheathing, if you get a 120 mile an hour wind going through there and your shingles get ripped off, you still have a waterproof barrier.

[00:30:36] Eric Goranson: That's gonna sheet the rain off better than if it was just raw plywood or felt paper. .

[00:30:42] Walt Tamala: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, cuz you're still using an ice and water on this product afterwards, um, which is gonna tie all those sheets together. Uh, but when you kind of use like a fortified system and you're nailing four inches on center and everything else, uh, which you're supposed to be on coastal and, and high wind zones, like you do, um, build [00:31:00] a much stronger and better structure, that's gonna have an opportunity to, to outlast any of those storms.

[00:31:06] Eric Goranson: Hmm. And I think that's huge just to get that water off of there and, and that could really. A lot of the water damage and even other wind damage by just keeping that water to the exterior, especially during the hurricanes and those kind of storms, like. .

[00:31:20] Walt Tamala: Yeah. Yeah. And, and zip has a, a great product. I remember when they first came out, you know, me, Eric, I love to try every product when it comes out, just because I want a noodle with it.

[00:31:28] Walt Tamala: I wanna figure out, you know, Eric likes to do that

[00:31:31] Caroline Blazovsky: too. You and Eric, that's all your brothers. Cause you like to tinker tinker with

[00:31:35] Eric Goranson: toys. What's this new

[00:31:37] Walt Tamala: stuff. Cool. Exactly. Let's tear it apart, you know, cuz we wanna break it down and see if we can make it fail. Yeah. And then let's, let's figure out how it works really well.

[00:31:46] Walt Tamala: And um, I remember the first few runs I did with it and I, I just struggled with the zip. Yeah. Um, and they had, they had in the very beginning, a couple failures where, you know, um, it bleeded back or it bubbled up. Um, so I just started putting house wrap over the top [00:32:00] of it. Honestly on a cold, uh, condition or windy conditions, uh, the zip would at least make everything water tight mm-hmm

[00:32:07] Walt Tamala: And then when I had time, I could come back over it with a house wrap and everybody laughed at me. Cause I know it was an extra day's worth of work and maybe $500 worth of product. But I then had two WBS that worked fine with each other, cuz there was air flow and everything else between them and it was just better all over and it didn't slow down any of my production while I was out there.

[00:32:28] Eric Goranson: Smart smart. And, and, and that's not, and that's, I guess the nice thing here, spit it out with that is that you don't have like two layers of plastic out there or something. You have a breathable surface on there that is gonna let any trapped moisture, leave the building and not let it inside.

[00:32:47] Walt Tamala: Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:48] Walt Tamala: I mean, and these, I want your

[00:32:51] opinion,

[00:32:51] Caroline Blazovsky: cuz I want you guys to try to convince. uh, Eric knows this. I am still a plywood and Eric will argue with me and I, and I do agree with him that [00:33:00] plywood has. More glues and resins than it used to be probably less breathable than it used to be. Cuz we used to use plywood cuz it did have breathability as far as moisture.

[00:33:09] Caroline Blazovsky: Right. When we were talking about moisture can go in and out. Absolutely it can. I, I like to explain it like as moisture comes into wood, wood can take on some moisture and then when it dries out, it releases it back out. Think of it like a tree, right? A tree doesn't get all moldy and nasty. It takes on the wood and it's wood gets moisture and then it lets it back out and the tree stands and it's fine with OSB.

[00:33:27] Caroline Blazovsky: The problem has always. That, that moisture does not permeate OSB as well. And we've done many studies on it that show that it prevents the moisture from traveling through my problem with the zip system is that it does contain OSB. I thought there was an option to choose plywood as your backer, but I don't think that that's true.

[00:33:45] Caroline Blazovsky: Right. I think it's all OSB. So for someone like me, who's not a big OSB enthusiast. One convinced me that OSB should be something that I'll look at. And two. What, you know, what's your take on it? I mean, if you were gonna build, would [00:34:00] you still build, let's say CDX or would you build with an OSB

[00:34:02] Walt Tamala: zip system?

[00:34:03] Walt Tamala: So, um, I'm going on year 29 of building for myself, uh, started this right outta high school. Um, so when you start outta high school, you walk the road of hard knocks and you make a lot of mistakes. Right? Um, one of the things that I've did for the first 20 years is I only used, um, for P. I mean, I was up to a few years ago that was still five inch for buy.

[00:34:25] Walt Tamala: Um, and it had to be a five ply yep. Uh, on my roofs. Um, and I would tell everybody, you know, if you walk on a 24 inch on center trust roof system and you have half inch plywood, um, my non tiny little structure bounces and moves way too much for me to feel comfortable. Amen. Um, and five H just doesn't. um, I have found that I've gone to 16 inch on center for most of my roof framing, um, and have backed away because adding two or three trusses was less expensive, uh, to get down to the half inch sheathing.

[00:34:59] Walt Tamala: [00:35:00] Um, and the caveat for me Carolina was that I took a piece of zip, uh, the roof sheaving, which is the red mm-hmm, the red, um, uh, board. And I put it out in my backyard, uh, for a year exposed and I just let it. So new England. Yes. It snowed on it. It rained on it. Four seasons. Uh, the backside of it was all black and nasty.

[00:35:18] Walt Tamala: By the time we were set and done it had gray and everything else. Uh, but that top layer still looked good. Um, so I then cut it and, and messed with it and I tried to apply tape to it and the tape still tuck to stuck to it. And I was like, you know what? I think that's a, a reasonable product now and I'd be willing to put it on my own house.

[00:35:35] Walt Tamala: Um, so I did it on a couple small product projects and, uh, I just found. Again, new England, you know, mm-hmm, , uh, we have the four seasons that change. So we don't like changing anything else in our river park. , uh, especially the way we build. Yep. Uh, but yeah, it, it proved, uh, that over time that it was, it was a good product and, uh, I do use it now.

[00:35:54] Walt Tamala: Nice. Um, not on every project. It all depends on if it's available, who has it in stock. Yep. Uh, [00:36:00] but if I know if I'm gonna be in wet conditions or I need to watertight that ASAP. Um, that the zip system's gonna get the, the nod for it. And

[00:36:07] Eric Goranson: one thing too, Caroline, I have done some tests as well, where I took, you know, a 12 by 12 piece of OSB and a 12 by 12 piece of CDX and soak it in water.

[00:36:19] Eric Goranson: And in my experience recently, I've seen the plywood D laminate, the exterior layer before the OSB comes apart.

[00:36:28] Caroline Blazovsky: Yeah. He's told me that before, which

[00:36:30] Eric Goranson: is interesting. Yeah. And so. I've even heard talking to some lumber people that they actually have the same glues in the OSB as they're using in the plywood.

[00:36:43] Eric Goranson: It's the same glue. And so it's just differently used you have a sheet of veneer versus the oriented strands of OSB. but you still have wood products between them. The OSB does traditionally have more glue in it because it's pieces, you you're holding little pieces together, but, uh, it's [00:37:00] not that much more glue.

[00:37:00] Eric Goranson: Yeah.

[00:37:01] Caroline Blazovsky: Our, our, our interesting take on it is that the permeability of it with the moisture going through has a much harder challenge. Like, so we see a lot of the houses not being able to pass moisture vapor and get rid of that vapor inside the house, which becomes a problem with this energy efficiency that I have to deal with.

[00:37:16] Caroline Blazovsky: Like, okay, you guys shower in the house, you cook in the house, you breathe in the. humidity gets in, what do I do with it? Because I can't have it stuck in there. Otherwise everything starts to condensate and I get all kinds of, you know, water dripping from your registers and your HVAC and that good stuff.

[00:37:31] Caroline Blazovsky: So I'm always interested to see what you guys as builders

[00:37:34] Walt Tamala: think. I think, um, I think one of the things, Eric, I'll just jump in real quick on that. I think one of the things that I find and, and we do more and more of is because most of the houses or structures that we're building have less than one air exchange per hour, um, which means we're building a very tight house.

[00:37:49] Walt Tamala: Um, so that should be controllable, but you're bringing in mechanicals, uh, to condition and move that moisture, uh, to where it belongs to the outside of the building. But, [00:38:00] uh, again, with any piece of mechanical that you add, there has to become a piece of knowledge that we pass along to our homeowners. So they know.

[00:38:07] Walt Tamala: When something's going wrong. Exactly what to look for. Just, Hey, did the red light, did the red light shine on the machine? Because that means it's not working. Yeah. Uh, because you don't really hear it running. No. So you gotta know what to look for. Um, as you're using certain things like your stoves and your ovens and everything else.

[00:38:22] Walt Tamala: So 5%, you're

[00:38:24] Eric Goranson: seeing this more and more where they're requiring a version of ice and water shield on the entire roof. It's not going to breathe at. When you put that on there. So whether or not the OSB breathes or the plywood breathes doesn't really matter, cuz it's not coming out through the surface.

[00:38:42] Eric Goranson: There's no place for it, it to go right. When you're putting that level of waterproofing on the outside of it, is that

[00:38:48] Caroline Blazovsky: good? That sounds terrible.

[00:38:49] Walt Tamala: It sounds like we shouldn't do that. If, if we don't manage that attic temperature and everything else you're right. It's terrible because, you know, um, I think.

[00:38:59] Walt Tamala: As [00:39:00] long as Ridge vents and soft vents are still used properly. Um, you're, you're still ice and watering over that entire sheathing. I've I've done full ice and water, uh, on homes for years. Um, all I'm doing is protecting the entire sheathing, but at the top, I'm still cutting a Ridge vent. Mm-hmm I can't tell you how many times I've seen, uh, a roofing company come in and the roofer or the framer dried in the roof, he ice and watered the whole thing, cuz it's easy enough to have your lumber yard ship you the ice and water.

[00:39:25] Walt Tamala: So to make the builder happier, happy he's sheath it. And then they've gone through and ice and watered the whole thing. And the roofer forgets to cut the Ridge vent. They throw it on top, cuz everything's already black. Yep. But they never cut the Ridge vent. And then the underside of that sheathing within a year is black and moldy.

[00:39:42] Walt Tamala: Yep.

[00:39:43] Caroline Blazovsky: I had to

[00:39:43] Walt Tamala: do that. Sorry. nice. Love it.

[00:39:47] Eric Goranson: Yeah. And, and I think Florida building code says that you have to, you know, have that up there just for protection with.

[00:39:55] Walt Tamala: Yes. Yeah, they do. Uh, the Miami did code and everything else. Uh, we just saw that [00:40:00] SCBC, that was one of the big things that they're, they're moving towards and, uh, that, uh, counties are dealing with, Hey, David

[00:40:05] Caroline Blazovsky: Applebaum has had to put in, in California because of this, this tightness going on in the attic space.

[00:40:10] Caroline Blazovsky: They kind of look they're dormers, I guess. Right. And they, over there, they look like graves. If you will like a grave, a tombstone mm-hmm and he's putting like 15 of them on the roofs in conjunction with having your roof vent and your vents going out on the side. So he, they have to put extra in to ventilate these addicts, because if they don't, they're getting too much condensation and like differential temperature.

[00:40:31] Walt Tamala: Wow. Yeah. I mean, you know what, I'm, I'm sure there's a building science and, and, and testing that's been done on that, you know, and here, back in the, the Northwest and or Northeast, and even where you are, Eric, I'm sure roof scoops and everything else were used, or if so, so many square feet of roof space, uh, vent would have to go into the roof.

[00:40:48] Walt Tamala: Um, but in California and the fires and everything else, uh, I would probably have minimal amount of penetrations and I would definitely have some kind of a system to manage that, uh, a ventilation system. That's in, [00:41:00] uh, the attic space instead that would have to have dampers on it. Yeah, they

[00:41:02] Caroline Blazovsky: have. I mean, that's what they David's been doing, because like I said, they used asphalt roofs now instead of the expandable, you know, they used to use the shingles that would breathe and open up for the, you know, with wood.

[00:41:13] Caroline Blazovsky: But because of fire code, they can't use those anymore. So they went with the asphalt and when they did the heat, I guess is getting trapped in. Yeah. And then with the, the air conditioned top floor. So everybody's got air conditioning on, cause it's a hundred degrees in Southern California. it's sweating.

[00:41:26] Caroline Blazovsky: You're getting all this water. That's sweating off the ducks and the vents in the attic space. And they all have mold.

[00:41:31] Eric Goranson: If it was me, I would put the right amount in. If I was in Southern California, I'd put the right amount of roof fence in fire or not. And then I'd just make sure that everything down below was covered in Rockwell.

[00:41:41] Eric Goranson: So if I did get any immersion stuff blowing in it's landing on the rock wall, and I know that's not gonna take off and, and become a problem. So if I did get some sparks. Came in, up and around through a roof Fent that that's a good idea. Slamming the rock wall. And guess what? I know it's not gonna burn there and it takes [00:42:00] a lot to get in and get into where it's gonna light the roof framing on fire.

[00:42:04] Eric Goranson: That's that's a big ask at that point.

[00:42:07] Walt Tamala: That's a great point, Eric and I, I think, you know, yeah, that's a good idea. I think if, if, and when Rockwell comes in with a blown in insulation, uh, method, uh, that, that will really be able to take off and, and run. Uh, but even if they did some kind of a, a spray foam to seal, um, that ceiling and then put Rockwell over the top of it, uh, to protect it, you could probably get enough R value where that, uh, condensation and everything else doesn't occur too many of this duct work and everything else isn't in conditioned spaces.

[00:42:35] Walt Tamala: So, like I add, I add a foot to all my ceiling Heights on the second floor, just so I can run duct work in it and then seal it off from the attic. Um, raised heel trusses. You, I mean, I'm getting a trust already. I'm not stick framing it. They can build that right into that trust package. And then all the mechanicals are run right through it and we don't have any issues with that.

[00:42:55] Walt Tamala: So there's definitely some ways around it. No, that's good. Uh, Eric, I love the thought [00:43:00] of that rock wall. That's that's brilliant. That's just an idea.

[00:43:02] Caroline Blazovsky: What is Rockwell, Eric?

[00:43:04] Eric Goranson: What is that? Actually as well, but it's a mineral. Woo. So basically it's a spun mineral. Think of almost like cotton candy, right? They take it mm-hmm and spin it out.

[00:43:12] Eric Goranson: And so it's a mineral, but it feels like a regular insulation board or insulation back to some extent. You know, you want to use gloves and you cut it with their Rockwell knife for one of those insulation board knives. But, uh, it goes in really easy. I've got half my garage done with it, just because one, it does so awesome with sound and with moisture and fire, it just outperforms everything else.

[00:43:40] Eric Goranson: And

[00:43:40] Caroline Blazovsky: that would just substitute in for your fiberglas. Yep. You would just use that instead of using a fiberglass insulation, which

[00:43:45] Walt Tamala: is nasty. And I actually incorporated on, on all the exteriors of our building so that I get a, a two inch, um, comfort board, uh, from Rockwell on the outside of my building so that I push the dewpoint to the exterior of my sheathing.

[00:43:59] Walt Tamala: So that [00:44:00] way I control mother nature mm-hmm and, and anything she's gonna bring at me goes to the. Tying it back into our WRB mm-hmm, where all that moisture should be to begin with. And then all I have to manage is, uh, you know, the moisture that's coming off of the residents that are living inside the.

[00:44:17] Walt Tamala: yeah,

[00:44:17] Eric Goranson: I also use it. I also use an interiors around every bathroom. I've always insulated around bathrooms with that. Mm-hmm cuz that stuff is such an amazing sound barrier. I love putting it around bathrooms and even between bedrooms in, in more custom homes, just to keep things quiet, not so much. And well you've also filled a, a stud bay with a, a fireproof product as well.

[00:44:39] Eric Goranson: So it doesn't hurt in that aspect.

[00:44:44] Walt Tamala: Absolutely. It's it is a great product all around. I mean, fire insect proof. Water drainability and, uh, soundproofing, um, I live right by an airport.

[00:44:55] Caroline Blazovsky: Is it less itchy too? Like when you work with it, like, you know, I, I can't stand working with [00:45:00] insulation cause it constantly itches me and it,

[00:45:01] Walt Tamala: is it less itchy?

[00:45:02] Walt Tamala: It's well, no, it's still itches. Um, but you know, it's not quite as bad, uh, depending on who you are. Like I work with it throughout the day. No problem. My brother touches it and. You know, he's like, oh my God, I'm gonna kill you for making me work with this stuff. . Um, but, uh, yeah, it's it. It's just how your, your skin reacts to it.

[00:45:20] Walt Tamala: Uh, but I wear gloves and I have

[00:45:21] Eric Goranson: to wear gloves to use. Yeah, I'll tear my hands up. So other than that, it's fine.

[00:45:26] Walt Tamala: But think of it as made by volcanic rock, you know, and it's just heated up and then, and broken down in spawn. Yeah.

[00:45:33] Eric Goranson: That's wild. It's cool stuff. That's cool. Walter. I wanted to talk about one other thing that fits into this.

[00:45:39] Eric Goranson: That's really important that I think is one of the most unknown things to most homeowners and even DIYers and, and some remodelers out there. Rain screens.

[00:45:50] Walt Tamala: Yes.

[00:45:50] Eric Goranson: You know, we can talk about WBS, but let's talk about what a rain screen is. So people understand where you use that and what you'd use it.

[00:45:59] Walt Tamala: [00:46:00] absolutely. So, um, I'm going to have my exterior sheathing, whether it's a zip or, um, a plywood on the house, I'm gonna then put my WRB on it. Uh, or if I'm using zip, it's already built in, uh, I'm gonna install those properly. But now, uh, in my neck of the woods, I'm gonna put at least a three eights rain.

[00:46:20] Walt Tamala: Which can be a dimple mat is what, uh, Benjamin dykes first started with and came out with, they called it Cedar breather for roofs, um, great product, uh, still one of the top of the line products that's out there. Um, or, you know, um, you can use some core vents. You can use, uh, a variety of different ways to create this airflow.

[00:46:40] Walt Tamala: And what it does is it allows air, uh, and moisture that's trapped that comes out of the house. And through that, WRB a drainage plane to. Down to the ground and out of the building. Uh, one of the other things it does, especially if you're using any kind of a wood product, if you're using Cedar clapboard or anything on the outside of your house, [00:47:00] think of it.

[00:47:00] Walt Tamala: A lot of times this stuff goes up primed or, or bare and then gets painted. So that means it's only breathing to one side that's the inside, uh, of the house. And if it's nailed directly to the wall, It has no place for that moisture to go. Yep. So that's why you see paint, bubble and everything else, uh, because it's trying to push out and the paint is now sealed it, uh, tighten into the wood.

[00:47:20] Walt Tamala: So if you give it that gap, um, and again, three eights was always kind of the, the go to number, um, depending on how much rain you get in your climate zone and everything else, I've seen it all the way up to three quarters of an inch. Um, there are scientists out there that'll tell you, you need more than that.

[00:47:36] Walt Tamala: I've never ran into it, but, um, the reality. You can get it all the way down to an eighth of an inch now. So there's a lot of wraps hydro gap, um, is one of 'em that's out there, but basically these dimpled, um, drain wraps, um, uh, from like Tyvec and, and DuPont, um, that just allow that moisture a place and a channel to run out from behind the siding, but in [00:48:00] front of the sheathing.

[00:48:01] Walt Tamala: So we incorporate 'em into every single build we do because they are another control layer. That's just as important as a w.

[00:48:09] Eric Goranson: So that's just direct. That's the freeway for the moisture. That's coming from the building and or through the exterior material. That is your finished material. You're given it a place to drop down a head down towards the bottom because it wants to leave and exit the building.

[00:48:25] Eric Goranson: Shall we say that's

[00:48:27] Walt Tamala: exactly correct. I always

[00:48:29] Caroline Blazovsky: pictured it like a gap wall. Like I remember when they, you know, back in, when I did green building in architecture school, they, they, it was like a plane. Yes. And it almost looks like a gaping that's in between, you know, like just for layman. Right. It was like this gap

[00:48:41] Walt Tamala: that was there.

[00:48:42] Walt Tamala: You could use some three quarter inch fir strips. Yeah. And just mail it right on top. But you could use some half inch plywood or whatever, um, and put it right on top of your sheathing or your WRB. Um, and yes, that would create that channel. And that's exactly what it's for. It's just. So that, uh, air can flow through it and moisture can be released.

[00:48:59] Eric Goranson: What I [00:49:00] do like with the rain screen technology, see out there now though, where it's kind of some of those woven fabrics that almost look like your Burillo pad and, and some of that. Yes. What I like about that is it doesn't give a place for spiders, pests and stuff to go hang out easily. Yes. So if you have a three quarter inch gap, And you get a hole someplace.

[00:49:19] Eric Goranson: Technically that could be your next, next was nest. That could be your next beehive wast. having a material in there that kind of keeps that from hav having happening is not a bad idea.

[00:49:32] Walt Tamala: No, not at all. I mean, and there's, there's, like I said, there's two products that I know on the market that do a really good job on that.

[00:49:37] Walt Tamala: And that's the Benjamin Dyke and the, the D pop products. Uh, and those come, is it like

[00:49:41] Caroline Blazovsky: wavy? I haven't seen it. What does it look like is

[00:49:44] Eric Goranson: see, I haven't in here. I don't, but it's a, it

[00:49:46] Walt Tamala: kinda looks a little bit like Swiss cheese on the backside. And then it's got a, uh, a layer that almost looks like a WRB on the front of it and it's glued together.

[00:49:53] Walt Tamala: Mm-hmm um, and these dimples are like one inch circles that are abutting in honeycomb form. Yeah. So that when you [00:50:00] put it down, wherever you nail it, um, it doesn't sink in enough to, to stop that channel or that airflow, uh, to be there. Um, you can put it up with like a stinger, uh, two inch cat fasteners and staples.

[00:50:12] Walt Tamala: Think of the

[00:50:12] Eric Goranson: top of a leg. Right. Think of a top of a Lego where you got the little, like, this is as far as the texture. Yeah. That.

[00:50:21] Walt Tamala: Yeah, absolutely. Gotcha. So Eric, one thing I think, uh, I I'd like to just throw out there is, you know, you were talking about, you know, what your homeowners, you know, should think about as far as RBS or, or how do you know they're using a good one.

[00:50:34] Walt Tamala: Um, when they're talking to the contractor, um, I just kind of have my, my five go-tos that I'll figure, I just throw out to you guys. Uh, you can use 'em if you want, or you research 'em mm-hmm um, but you know, you have your Tyvec of the. They created house wrap. Uh, they're still, uh, probably one of the best on the market.

[00:50:52] Walt Tamala: Uh, Ty part, uh, is a phenomenal product as well. Um, you then move into, uh, your fully [00:51:00] adhered, uh, blue skin, Henry blue skin. Um, you got your zip panels, uh, fully integrated with just a tape and then CIGA CIGA is, uh, a Swiss company that, uh, doesn't do a ton of marketing over here, but anybody that's like a passive house builder or building to a high performance is using a CIGA product.

[00:51:19] Walt Tamala: And, uh, also just phenomenal. So if you, as a listener, hear any of those five products brought up by your builder, um, that builder probably knows what they. And, and it's worth the, the you're gonna get a nice education, cuz they've chosen a product because they trust it. Uh, and they like the system

[00:51:37] Eric Goranson: and they probably have the relationship to be able to get the product, which is half the battle.

[00:51:42] Eric Goranson: Right. correct. I mean, Y I see this all the time and I can't tell you how many times I'm driving around. And I see, you know, for instance, I'll see product a up there, cause I'm not gonna name names cuz it's not fair, but all of a sudden I see product B tape on it. Or [00:52:00] product C tape on it. And it's just because, or I'll see even worse where I'll have the product a as the house wrap, the tape is product B and product C is the flexible flashing around the windows.

[00:52:13] Eric Goranson: That's cuz that's what they could get. Right, right.

[00:52:16] Walt Tamala: Yeah, exactly. which one is, so is it

[00:52:20] Caroline Blazovsky: bad while like to mix like, should people not be doing that? Is that, I mean, is that

[00:52:26] Walt Tamala: not? Okay. Unfortunately, some of these products do work out all right together. Uh, when you have an acrylic tape with an acrylic, um, product, uh, or a product that.

[00:52:36] Walt Tamala: Accept acrylic then. Yes. But you know, you have Bitman based products, you have beautiful based products. You have acrylic based products. And two, three of those, you know, don't work well together. Um, so mm-hmm, , you know, it may feel like they sealed up as you're installing it. And you're like, Hey, this is great.

[00:52:53] Walt Tamala: But the minute you turn your back, I mean, you know, you're gonna cover that up with some siding and then it's gonna fail. So no, and then some of them will [00:53:00] eat away at the others. Uh, the coatings that are on them. Saying

[00:53:03] Eric Goranson: don't mix and match and even worse. If you have some kind of warranty claim you have just now given them the most basic excuse to not cover that warranty is, oh, you use that tape.

[00:53:17] Eric Goranson: Oh, you use that flexible flashing you as soon as you get that rollout. Just remember that that warranty is what just left the.

[00:53:28] Walt Tamala: 100% correct Eric. I mean, every builder is like, well, if I use the whole system, then you get the warranty from the manufacturer.

[00:53:35] Eric Goranson: And the problem is if you're a builder out there doing it now you've assumed that warranty personally, with your company, because now you don't have a manufacturer standing behind you.

[00:53:49] Eric Goranson: So within that period, We see all the apartment complexes, condo units, houses, and neighborhoods where they're in there reciting them. You don't [00:54:00] want that coming out of your, I.

[00:54:02] Walt Tamala: Definitely not I, not my insurance, my insurance company doesn't want to hear that at all. And I, I want my rates to stay low, so yes, I follow the prescribed method.

[00:54:12] Eric Goranson: amen. Amen. Well, Walt, what else have we missed about this? I mean, we talked about, we didn't really talk too much about flexible flashing, even though that's kind of part of the process. We talked about it last time, but I think it's probably still worth mentioning at least around the windows and doors, how people are finishing.

[00:54:29] Eric Goranson: These WBS. So they understand the, the whole process.

[00:54:33] Walt Tamala: Yeah. I think, uh, windows are one of those tricky areas like inside corners on the siding. You know, tapes, standard tapes and everything else. If you just push 'em in, on, uh, on the flat and everything else, they'll create a Cove, almost like an air gap. And then when you go to slide that window in, or, or the slider gets there to, to, to push a siding type, uh, tight, you know, it doesn't push it.

[00:54:53] Walt Tamala: Doesn't sit, flush. So then the knife comes out and that gets caught. And now. All that tape, all that money was just spent is gone [00:55:00] literally right out the window. Um, so they make flex wrap. They make the stretch wraps. They make all these new products, uh, that even though they stretch to twice their size.

[00:55:10] Walt Tamala: They have a hundred percent water seal ability and integrity, um, which allows us to apply the pressure where we need to, to get it tucked in nice and tight, and then wrap right around from that jam of the interior of that window, opening to the outside and get it over the top on the bottom of the window of the WRB and then tuck on the sides.

[00:55:28] Walt Tamala: Above it, uh, the w R B over the top of that flashing. Uh, so it watersheds properly. Um, but really it allows us to not have to use fasteners. Uh, so we don't have any penetrations. Um, and then most of these products are self-sealing so that when the window screws and everything else go through them, they seal the, the fastener, uh, to the tapes, which is key so that we're not having any issues, uh, with moisture penetrating into that.

[00:55:53] Walt Tamala: So don't be afraid of these flex wraps. I will tell you that the first couple times you use 'em cut a, cut a one foot strip off and [00:56:00] do a corner with just one foot. So it's going six inches up the jam and six inches on the sill, and then cut a piece of straight flashing to fit in between and over the top of that, um, Because if you mess up a one foot piece that costs, I don't know, maybe four or $5 a linear foot, you're not as mad as when you, you peel off four feet and realize you just wasted $30 and you're extracting your head going.

[00:56:22] Walt Tamala: Me and I don't ever wanna do this again.

[00:56:24] Eric Goranson: Yeah. See, I'm excessive. I use that stuff. When I put fence post into my yard, I wrap the whole bottom of the, the post before I put the pressure treated post, then just to keep the water out.

[00:56:34] Walt Tamala: Yeah, absolutely. I mean the freeze thaws, I mean, all those pressure treated posts, they say that they're warrantied except for our ground contact.

[00:56:41] Walt Tamala: Right. So you're doing a great job. That's a great thing to think about and just seal these so that they last, as long as that would should.

[00:56:47] Eric Goranson: Exactly. And that way I'm not fixing it later. Well, thanks for coming on today, brother. This has been a great education for thanks everyone. And, uh, such a smarty pants.[00:57:00]

[00:57:00] Walt Tamala: I'm glad that's recorded because I wanna play that back for my

[00:57:06] Caroline Blazovsky: kids will never think you're smart. That's a good, well,

[00:57:08] Eric Goranson: I'll cut that and send it in your email box for you that way it's sitting there. yes. Perfect. I appreciate

[00:57:13] Walt Tamala: that. My

[00:57:14] Eric Goranson: friend, that way, it'll be, uh, the ring tone for when Caroline calls you. Yes. exactly that makes I love it. Thanks for coming. My brother always good.

[00:57:25] Eric Goranson: And we'll see you next

[00:57:25] Walt Tamala: time. Thank you so much. Take care. I'm Eric G

[00:57:29] Eric Goranson: and I'm Caroline B and you've been listening to around the house