1 00:00:00,500 --> 00:00:03,710 I spent the last two episodes discussing fawn and appeasement, 2 00:00:03,859 --> 00:00:08,900 which are two of the three new mixed states added to the polyvagal theory. 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:10,460 Intimacy is the third one. 4 00:00:10,460 --> 00:00:12,170 And I'll be discussing that in the next episode. 5 00:00:12,530 --> 00:00:17,120 But in all honesty, I've struggled with conceptualizing fawn and 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:18,170 appeasement in particular. 7 00:00:19,270 --> 00:00:20,830 I want to share my thoughts with you. 8 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:22,470 Just to kind of get you thinking along with me. 9 00:00:23,220 --> 00:00:24,700 My name is Justin Sunseri. 10 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:30,419 I am a therapist, a coach, and the creator of the Polyvagal trauma relief system. 11 00:00:30,929 --> 00:00:33,359 Welcome to Stuck Not Broken where I typically teach you 12 00:00:33,359 --> 00:00:34,649 how to live with more calm. 13 00:00:35,069 --> 00:00:37,589 Confidence and connection without the psychobabble. 14 00:00:38,039 --> 00:00:39,509 But in this episode, we're going to be. 15 00:00:39,839 --> 00:00:43,439 Dissecting the two of the three new polyvagal mixed 16 00:00:43,439 --> 00:00:46,320 states, appeasement and fawn. 17 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:48,740 I guess I have a couple of questions. 18 00:00:48,740 --> 00:00:53,150 One of them is what is the best conceptualization 19 00:00:53,180 --> 00:00:54,499 for fawn and appeasement? 20 00:00:54,499 --> 00:00:55,070 There are no. 21 00:00:55,579 --> 00:00:56,570 Test tubes here. 22 00:00:57,049 --> 00:01:00,859 There's no machines that we're using to identify what's happening 23 00:01:00,889 --> 00:01:03,839 underneath someone's behaviors. 24 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:05,399 We are inferring. 25 00:01:05,579 --> 00:01:08,399 We are speculating on some level and I think that's okay. 26 00:01:08,899 --> 00:01:12,319 But when it comes down to it, no, one's measuring heart rate variability. 27 00:01:12,769 --> 00:01:17,599 Or no, one's measuring someone's baseline of respiratory sinus arrhythmia. 28 00:01:18,109 --> 00:01:19,399 Respiratory sinus arrhythmia. 29 00:01:20,059 --> 00:01:23,629 And then checking it when they're under duress or if that is happening, 30 00:01:23,629 --> 00:01:25,279 it's in a lab and not day-to-day. 31 00:01:25,999 --> 00:01:30,589 So, I don't know if there's a really objective way that the polyvagal 32 00:01:30,589 --> 00:01:35,479 researchers have come up with, to identify these are the states that 33 00:01:35,479 --> 00:01:39,769 are going on when someone is showing a certain behavioral type of behavior 34 00:01:39,799 --> 00:01:44,179 and on top of that, here are the specific measurements and here is 35 00:01:44,179 --> 00:01:47,660 the quantity of safety activation. 36 00:01:47,929 --> 00:01:51,229 Here's the quantity of shutdown and here's flight fight. 37 00:01:51,729 --> 00:01:57,009 So, I guess the point being here is that there is a lot of inference here and I 38 00:01:57,009 --> 00:01:59,380 think it's okay to discuss these things. 39 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:02,860 And I want to add my own conceptualization to this. 40 00:02:03,460 --> 00:02:09,039 So I'm kind of wondering if looking at fawn and appeasement -are 41 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:11,740 looking at these as mixed states, the best way to look at them. 42 00:02:12,239 --> 00:02:16,289 So we have originally we had the three primary states. 43 00:02:17,099 --> 00:02:19,019 Safety, flight fight, and shut down. 44 00:02:19,049 --> 00:02:22,109 And then we also had three mixed states. 45 00:02:22,139 --> 00:02:24,839 I'm going to call those original mixed states. 46 00:02:24,839 --> 00:02:28,019 Cause I want to differentiate, differentiate those from 47 00:02:28,019 --> 00:02:29,399 the three new mixed states. 48 00:02:29,899 --> 00:02:35,839 When you add the three primary states, you get the three original mixed states, 49 00:02:36,079 --> 00:02:42,409 but now we're looking at phenomena like fawning and appeasing, and then 50 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:44,659 applying the polyvagal lens to them. 51 00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:48,579 Again, it's not like they weren't a lab and they identified, Hey, 52 00:02:48,579 --> 00:02:52,779 when we mix this with and we mix that voila, we get appeasement. 53 00:02:52,809 --> 00:02:54,999 No we're looking at, this is a thing. 54 00:02:55,269 --> 00:02:57,819 And now we're going to kind of like infer what's happening 55 00:02:57,849 --> 00:02:59,229 underneath what we're seeing here. 56 00:02:59,729 --> 00:03:03,149 So what's the best way to conceptualize these through the 57 00:03:03,149 --> 00:03:04,499 lens of the polyvagal theory? 58 00:03:04,499 --> 00:03:07,499 Cause I do think Polyvagal theory has a lot to bring the 59 00:03:07,529 --> 00:03:08,699 table when it comes to these. 60 00:03:09,539 --> 00:03:12,539 But I don't know if looking at them as mixtape is the best way. 61 00:03:13,079 --> 00:03:15,529 Fawn and appeasement have lots of overlap. 62 00:03:16,079 --> 00:03:18,509 Both of them involve being an extreme danger. 63 00:03:18,539 --> 00:03:23,879 And I would say life threat scenarios where there is a captor or an abuser, 64 00:03:24,359 --> 00:03:26,039 flight fight is not an option. 65 00:03:26,089 --> 00:03:27,199 Both these states. 66 00:03:27,859 --> 00:03:32,359 Or mixed states involve significant shutdown activation, 67 00:03:32,659 --> 00:03:38,629 including dissociation, including disconnection from the values 68 00:03:38,629 --> 00:03:40,519 and the empowerment of the self. 69 00:03:41,489 --> 00:03:45,179 Sacrificing of everything, I would imagine. 70 00:03:45,779 --> 00:03:49,049 All of oneself in order to survive a situation. 71 00:03:49,979 --> 00:03:50,489 So. 72 00:03:51,269 --> 00:03:55,529 Would these be better framed as behavioral adaptations? 73 00:03:56,129 --> 00:03:57,809 Versus a mixed state. 74 00:03:58,659 --> 00:04:03,499 Behavioral adaptation- just as a recap is a behavior that one does in 75 00:04:03,499 --> 00:04:08,719 order to reduce the experience or the intensity of their defensive activation. 76 00:04:08,779 --> 00:04:10,669 And typically this is going to be something in response 77 00:04:10,669 --> 00:04:12,379 to a stuck defensive state. 78 00:04:12,879 --> 00:04:17,619 As examples we have: self-harm, hair-pulling, substance and alcohol 79 00:04:17,619 --> 00:04:22,579 use, cutting class, overworking, all kinds of stuff that we do in order to 80 00:04:22,579 --> 00:04:24,409 relieve whatever we're going through. 81 00:04:24,909 --> 00:04:28,779 So fawn and appeasement are behavioral adaptations. 82 00:04:29,589 --> 00:04:34,359 They would be to shut down or freeze primarily. 83 00:04:34,989 --> 00:04:40,789 So we could look at these as behaviors or behavioral groupings that are in 84 00:04:40,809 --> 00:04:46,809 response to a predominant other state, which would be shut down as a primary 85 00:04:46,809 --> 00:04:48,469 state or freeze as a mixed state. 86 00:04:48,539 --> 00:04:51,599 I would speculate there's more of a flavor of shutdown. 87 00:04:52,529 --> 00:04:57,419 Of course when it comes to anything like there's always a mixed state. 88 00:04:58,379 --> 00:05:00,389 There's a mixed state happening at all times. 89 00:05:00,389 --> 00:05:03,419 Right now, you and I are in a mixed state. 90 00:05:04,259 --> 00:05:07,979 You know, I don't think we're ever in just one state and we're probably always 91 00:05:07,979 --> 00:05:13,379 in all three of our primary states on some level, like right now I'm sitting. 92 00:05:14,219 --> 00:05:14,879 And I'm talking. 93 00:05:14,909 --> 00:05:16,679 I'm moving my hands, a lot of the talk. 94 00:05:17,429 --> 00:05:18,659 But I'm also thinking critically. 95 00:05:19,049 --> 00:05:20,639 So I'm in safety. 96 00:05:20,699 --> 00:05:21,629 I'm in mobility. 97 00:05:22,229 --> 00:05:23,969 And I'm also in immobility. 98 00:05:24,219 --> 00:05:28,359 But I wouldn't say that I'm in a mixed state called podcast recording. 99 00:05:28,569 --> 00:05:28,929 Right. 100 00:05:28,959 --> 00:05:32,919 We wouldn't create a new mix state to identify where I'm at right now. 101 00:05:33,419 --> 00:05:37,139 Instead, we would say I'm doing a behavior of podcast recording. 102 00:05:37,709 --> 00:05:41,639 And I have a, I have primary states and maybe a mixed state 103 00:05:42,329 --> 00:05:45,269 that is underlying what I'm doing. 104 00:05:46,109 --> 00:05:49,079 So I do have a dominant flavor to my system, which is probably 105 00:05:49,079 --> 00:05:50,249 more of a safety state. 106 00:05:50,249 --> 00:05:50,429 Yeah. 107 00:05:50,429 --> 00:05:52,319 I'm mobile, but I'm also immobile. 108 00:05:52,799 --> 00:05:55,019 But primarily, I would say I'm in my safety state. 109 00:05:55,289 --> 00:06:00,629 You could also say that I'm primarily in a mixed state of stillness because I'm 110 00:06:00,629 --> 00:06:05,099 immobile, but safe with some mobility in my system, but primarily, maybe 111 00:06:05,099 --> 00:06:08,949 stillness . You could also argue that maybe I'm in more of a play mixed state. 112 00:06:09,549 --> 00:06:13,649 That yeah, I'm immobile, but there are some playfulness and co-regulative 113 00:06:13,669 --> 00:06:15,289 quality to what I'm doing. 114 00:06:15,979 --> 00:06:21,499 So maybe you could make the case that I'm in a predominantly play mixed state. 115 00:06:22,159 --> 00:06:27,729 But no matter what you want to call my state, I'm podcast recording. 116 00:06:27,729 --> 00:06:31,029 But you wouldn't call podcast recording the mixed state. 117 00:06:31,329 --> 00:06:34,929 I do probably have a dominant state that's flavoring my system. 118 00:06:35,529 --> 00:06:38,079 I would argue that's more safety, whether it's, whether I'm in a 119 00:06:38,109 --> 00:06:40,299 mixed state of stillness or of play. 120 00:06:40,799 --> 00:06:42,929 Safety is involved in both those. 121 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,770 So I think predominantly I have enough safety in my system. 122 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,890 And that's the thing that's sort of guiding all this, I think. 123 00:06:50,390 --> 00:06:54,710 I think we could look at what state that we're in or whatever experience that we're 124 00:06:54,710 --> 00:07:00,200 having and say that there is one primary state or one of the original mixed states 125 00:07:00,769 --> 00:07:02,900 that's flavoring whatever we're doing. 126 00:07:03,710 --> 00:07:07,070 You know, we could look at the same behaviors. 127 00:07:07,999 --> 00:07:09,650 Or generally the same behavior. 128 00:07:10,369 --> 00:07:13,310 And then look at what's happening underneath it and 129 00:07:13,310 --> 00:07:14,389 come to different conclusions. 130 00:07:14,389 --> 00:07:16,790 Like I already kind of illustrated with podcast recording, I suppose, 131 00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:18,109 that could be in play or stillness. 132 00:07:18,609 --> 00:07:20,830 But for another example, you know, someone, we could hear somebody 133 00:07:20,830 --> 00:07:24,340 saying cruel words, like maybe they're making fun of somebody else. 134 00:07:24,590 --> 00:07:26,749 You know, you're yelling at your partner and you're say 135 00:07:26,779 --> 00:07:28,729 something that, that you regret. 136 00:07:29,029 --> 00:07:32,330 Those same words could be from this explosive rage, or maybe 137 00:07:32,330 --> 00:07:35,850 they're come from this, like bullying ragefu l kind of thing. 138 00:07:36,350 --> 00:07:39,140 So the first example would be fight state, probably. 139 00:07:39,650 --> 00:07:44,260 The next example might be freeze mixed state with an underlying anger to it. 140 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:45,540 Or fight. 141 00:07:46,470 --> 00:07:50,700 But we could also say cruel things from a playful, mixed 142 00:07:50,700 --> 00:07:52,500 state, like a comedian does. 143 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,440 So the same words being spoken could have different flavors based 144 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,930 on what primary or original mixtape that the individual is acting from. 145 00:08:03,430 --> 00:08:07,420 These primary states and the original mixed states, I would say are the 146 00:08:07,420 --> 00:08:09,910 foundation for their S S I E C. 147 00:08:09,940 --> 00:08:14,320 That's something I created stands for state sensation, impulse, 148 00:08:14,350 --> 00:08:15,430 emotions, and cognitions. 149 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:21,440 The primary state and or the original mixed states flavor our 150 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:26,390 experiences and really lay the foundation for our sensations, 151 00:08:26,420 --> 00:08:28,460 impulses, emotions, and cognitions. 152 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:34,450 So maybe it is maybe more useful to look at one's behavior and then infer 153 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:40,720 the flavor of their system using the primary and the original mixed states. 154 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:46,240 But again, all behaviors can have an underlying mixed state. 155 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,190 But we don't call it. 156 00:08:48,550 --> 00:08:49,030 We don't call it. 157 00:08:49,030 --> 00:08:51,190 The behavior is a mixed state in and of themselves. 158 00:08:51,220 --> 00:08:54,790 So for example, bullying has observable behaviors. 159 00:08:55,510 --> 00:08:58,780 But we wouldn't say that bullying is a mixed state, would we? 160 00:08:59,470 --> 00:09:03,260 We would say that bullying has a dominant primary state. 161 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,570 Or maybe a dominance original mix state that is driving the 162 00:09:07,570 --> 00:09:11,650 bullying behaviors like frozen rage or a sympathetic fight state. 163 00:09:12,150 --> 00:09:16,020 But we wouldn't say bullying is a mixed state, I don't think. 164 00:09:16,950 --> 00:09:22,890 So I'm worried that we are equating the behavior or a grouping of behaviors with 165 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,620 a state or mixed state in and of itself. 166 00:09:25,650 --> 00:09:26,780 I don't think these're the same. 167 00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:32,300 So maybe it's more useful to infer what dominant primary states or original 168 00:09:32,300 --> 00:09:35,450 mixed state flavors the system of the behaviors that we're seeing. 169 00:09:35,750 --> 00:09:38,630 So let's bring this to fawn and appeasement in particular. 170 00:09:39,130 --> 00:09:40,210 Is it more useful? 171 00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:41,290 And I'm putting this to you. 172 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,780 I don't know the right answer as this is kind of where I've 173 00:09:43,780 --> 00:09:45,040 been stuck for quite a while. 174 00:09:45,540 --> 00:09:48,300 So I'm gonna put this to you for fawning an appeasement- is it more 175 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:54,030 useful to conceptualize these as behavioral adaptations that have 176 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,160 an underlying primary states. 177 00:09:57,090 --> 00:09:58,800 Or underlying original, mixed state. 178 00:09:58,850 --> 00:10:01,910 Shut down and freeze would be the underlying, in my opinion 179 00:10:01,910 --> 00:10:05,120 would be the underlying primary and original mixed state. 180 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:06,980 Shut down would be the primary. 181 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,130 Freeze would be the original mixed state that would be 182 00:10:10,130 --> 00:10:12,290 underlying fawn and appeasement. 183 00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:17,500 The fawning and appeasement types of behaviors, I would call those not 184 00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:21,310 behaviors in and of themselves, but there are more behavioral groupings. 185 00:10:21,310 --> 00:10:23,050 There's a lot of things that someone could do that we would 186 00:10:23,050 --> 00:10:24,520 call fawning or appeasing. 187 00:10:25,020 --> 00:10:28,620 But the fawning and appeasing behaviors, general grouping of behaviors. 188 00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:35,100 Would be an adaptation to that dominant shutdown or freeze original mix state. 189 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:42,040 So maybe this isn't that different from the current conceptualization of fawn and 190 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,680 appeasement, but I think it's an important distinction and I think it's important to 191 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:52,670 distinguish the behavior from the state, that's underlying it and driving it. 192 00:10:53,170 --> 00:10:57,280 You know, when I work with somebody, I don't think I would spend time 193 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:58,270 with, I haven't done it before. 194 00:10:58,270 --> 00:11:02,410 And I don't think I would spend time with differentiating whether they're in a 195 00:11:02,410 --> 00:11:05,260 fawn state or an appeasement mixed state. 196 00:11:06,069 --> 00:11:10,480 Instead the way that I work would be to identify their primary defensive 197 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,280 state that is then flavoring their decision-making and their behavior. 198 00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:19,069 And for these, it would be shut down because fawning and 199 00:11:19,069 --> 00:11:21,740 appeasing involve so much. 200 00:11:21,860 --> 00:11:26,000 I think dissociation from the self and one's values, a lot of self-sacrifice. 201 00:11:26,839 --> 00:11:30,020 And also disconnection from the present moment, disconnection 202 00:11:30,050 --> 00:11:31,400 from the self, the true self. 203 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:32,480 Maybe if you want to call it that. 204 00:11:32,980 --> 00:11:37,000 Then, if we could identify, you probably were in a, not you 205 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:38,530 listener, but just the general you. 206 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:42,869 You probably were in a dominant shutdown state. 207 00:11:43,370 --> 00:11:46,880 Then we could look at the behaviors that came from that shutdown state, 208 00:11:46,910 --> 00:11:51,330 like connecting with the captor, engaging with them and with their goals. 209 00:11:51,330 --> 00:11:54,810 Those are more specific behaviors that we would call appeasing. 210 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,500 But we know we could see that those behaviors came from 211 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:00,600 probably a shutdown state. 212 00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:07,010 We could say you lied for the benefit of your abuser or your captor. 213 00:12:07,510 --> 00:12:12,550 But that lying served to help you to survive and probably came 214 00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:17,140 from shutdown in order to get you to compromise your values. 215 00:12:17,979 --> 00:12:23,519 And maybe we could even say it came from flight and anxiousness and lying helped 216 00:12:23,539 --> 00:12:25,909 to relieve the flight activation, maybe. 217 00:12:26,409 --> 00:12:30,789 We can say that you prioritize the captors needs to survive. 218 00:12:30,789 --> 00:12:33,279 We can say that you agreed with the captors lies. 219 00:12:33,699 --> 00:12:38,279 Or their gaslighting, but we would say that these probably stemmed from 220 00:12:38,549 --> 00:12:40,589 a significant amount of shutdown. 221 00:12:41,089 --> 00:12:45,529 And so we can look at all those behaviors as a grouping and call it appeasement. 222 00:12:46,029 --> 00:12:49,149 Or maybe, you know, I think those would fit into fawning on some level as well. 223 00:12:49,649 --> 00:12:55,259 So the primary factor is probably shutdown or freeze. 224 00:12:55,949 --> 00:12:57,959 And then all these behaviors come from it. 225 00:12:57,989 --> 00:13:00,089 And then we look at those behaviors and we grouped them 226 00:13:00,119 --> 00:13:03,269 into appeasement and or fawning. 227 00:13:03,599 --> 00:13:05,939 They both have a different flavor to them. 228 00:13:06,509 --> 00:13:08,939 So, is it more useful? 229 00:13:08,999 --> 00:13:11,819 And this is how I think in therapy, but is it more useful to identify 230 00:13:11,819 --> 00:13:17,129 that you adjusted your behavior based on the needs of the context? 231 00:13:17,629 --> 00:13:23,989 But more specifically based on the significant probably shut down activation. 232 00:13:24,489 --> 00:13:28,419 So maybe that's more of a practical look at it and how, at least I would look 233 00:13:28,419 --> 00:13:31,479 at these things and frame these things and work with my clients in therapy. 234 00:13:31,979 --> 00:13:33,390 And to take this a step further. 235 00:13:33,390 --> 00:13:36,719 I think that we could, rather than saying all these states are active at 236 00:13:36,719 --> 00:13:38,069 the same time, which of course they are. 237 00:13:38,130 --> 00:13:39,150 They always are right now. 238 00:13:39,180 --> 00:13:41,490 Like I said, I, all these states are always at the same time. 239 00:13:42,180 --> 00:13:43,979 But it doesn't result in appeasement, right? 240 00:13:44,819 --> 00:13:48,120 So there's something different about appeasement in particular, where 241 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,969 we have all three states active, but results in something different. 242 00:13:51,839 --> 00:13:55,439 Because right now I have all states active, but I'm not in an appeasement. 243 00:13:55,439 --> 00:13:56,099 I don't think. 244 00:13:56,599 --> 00:13:59,839 So instead of looking at it as if we'll all three are active and there you go. 245 00:14:00,339 --> 00:14:03,640 Then maybe we should instead look at this as the shutdown 246 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:04,900 state is the most dominant. 247 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:11,870 And when someone is in that massive shutdown state- that provides 248 00:14:11,870 --> 00:14:15,349 this sort of new platform that they're going to build off of. 249 00:14:16,130 --> 00:14:18,739 And it kind of puts them onto this autopilot. 250 00:14:19,729 --> 00:14:25,160 And this person is not really an active driver of their body. 251 00:14:25,579 --> 00:14:29,359 Their decision-making their self and they're watching 252 00:14:29,359 --> 00:14:30,979 their life now on autopilot. 253 00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:35,449 And this, this like watching of their life as if it's like in a movie. 254 00:14:36,079 --> 00:14:41,209 Very common description for people who are in a severe shutdown, dissociative state. 255 00:14:41,510 --> 00:14:44,780 But even though they're on autopilot, they're still able to function daily. 256 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:46,880 They could even utilize. 257 00:14:46,939 --> 00:14:48,980 I'm not saying it's great functioning, but you know, they, 258 00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:50,330 they can get their needs met. 259 00:14:51,020 --> 00:14:54,199 Because of the shutdown autopilot. 260 00:14:54,699 --> 00:14:58,239 So they they're still functioning daily and they might even be on 261 00:14:58,239 --> 00:15:01,919 some level utilizing the biological pathways of the other states. 262 00:15:02,419 --> 00:15:05,119 The kids that I work with in schools who are in a significant 263 00:15:05,119 --> 00:15:09,019 dissociative shutdown state, they're mobile enough to get to school. 264 00:15:09,679 --> 00:15:12,589 They're mobile enough to smile their way through interactions that 265 00:15:12,589 --> 00:15:16,069 they don't want to be a part of or, or cannot be a genuine part of. 266 00:15:16,069 --> 00:15:21,529 So, That significant shutdown seems to put them on this autopilot 267 00:15:21,529 --> 00:15:23,749 where they can get through the day. 268 00:15:24,739 --> 00:15:26,119 I'm not saying it's a great quality of life. 269 00:15:26,119 --> 00:15:31,539 I don't encourage you to to strive for this, but it kind of provides this new 270 00:15:31,539 --> 00:15:35,619 autopilot platform and that's kind of the best word I have for at this time. 271 00:15:36,119 --> 00:15:38,789 But no, I would not call autopilot a mixed state. 272 00:15:38,849 --> 00:15:42,869 To me, it's more of a function of being in significant shutdown. 273 00:15:42,929 --> 00:15:47,099 And I really wonder how much this has to do- if this, this conceptualization is 274 00:15:47,099 --> 00:15:52,349 helpful- I wonder how much this has to do with a dissociative identity disorder. 275 00:15:52,849 --> 00:15:56,119 Like how many times can the mind go on to autopilot? 276 00:15:56,659 --> 00:16:00,819 And create this new platform and then switch between them. 277 00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:01,269 I don't know. 278 00:16:01,539 --> 00:16:02,679 I'm just purely speculating. 279 00:16:03,179 --> 00:16:08,669 So could we look at fawning and appeasement in particular as significant 280 00:16:08,669 --> 00:16:13,379 shutdown states that then put somebody on this sort of autopilot. 281 00:16:13,949 --> 00:16:19,839 That really disconnects them from their values and what they know is right 282 00:16:19,839 --> 00:16:23,659 or wrong- their inner power to act on that, knowing their healthy boundaries. 283 00:16:24,159 --> 00:16:25,419 This isn't issue of blame. 284 00:16:25,419 --> 00:16:28,399 I think people do these things as a means of survival and I 285 00:16:28,399 --> 00:16:29,569 don't blame them whatsoever. 286 00:16:29,899 --> 00:16:30,859 So it's not about that. 287 00:16:31,279 --> 00:16:32,809 I don't think people are choosing to do this. 288 00:16:33,319 --> 00:16:33,799 At all. 289 00:16:34,099 --> 00:16:37,849 So I basically, I guess, to get back to the point in here, I don't know if looking 290 00:16:37,849 --> 00:16:43,849 at the fawning and appeasement phenomena as mixed states in and of themselves is 291 00:16:44,239 --> 00:16:45,409 the best way to look at these things. 292 00:16:45,909 --> 00:16:46,659 Or we could. 293 00:16:46,749 --> 00:16:52,089 You know, look at them as mixed states, but with more dominant of a flavor 294 00:16:52,119 --> 00:16:58,479 of a primary state or original mixed state, like shutdown or like freeze. 295 00:16:58,979 --> 00:17:01,679 If not, it's like, what does mixed state mean anymore? 296 00:17:01,769 --> 00:17:03,659 It seems to have lost its meaning. 297 00:17:04,109 --> 00:17:05,279 We're always in a mixed state. 298 00:17:05,779 --> 00:17:07,429 Any type of behavior. 299 00:17:07,929 --> 00:17:11,729 Or grouping of behaviors has an underlying mixed state, right? 300 00:17:11,969 --> 00:17:15,239 The person who's bullying, the person who is addicted to something, there 301 00:17:15,239 --> 00:17:20,029 is a mixed state going on, but we wouldn't call their state addiction. 302 00:17:20,089 --> 00:17:22,399 We wouldn't call their state bullying. 303 00:17:23,389 --> 00:17:26,809 But yeah, there is a mixed state underlying that's driving their 304 00:17:26,809 --> 00:17:28,099 addiction or their bullying. 305 00:17:28,599 --> 00:17:32,049 But it might be more useful to identify what the predominant 306 00:17:32,049 --> 00:17:34,569 flavor of their system is. 307 00:17:34,629 --> 00:17:39,369 And then from that predominant flavor, Then the behaviors come 308 00:17:39,369 --> 00:17:41,979 from that as a way to adapt to whatever they're going through. 309 00:17:42,939 --> 00:17:47,229 I don't think we need to keep on adding mixed states to the 310 00:17:47,229 --> 00:17:48,909 polyvagal theory, in my opinion. 311 00:17:49,419 --> 00:17:51,959 I don't think, and this is not you know, Dr. 312 00:17:51,959 --> 00:17:52,989 Porges' stance. 313 00:17:53,809 --> 00:17:57,199 His son and him had written the last book that's coming out really soon- 314 00:17:57,199 --> 00:18:00,109 our Polyvagal world- it's not, their stance is not Polyvagal Institute. 315 00:18:00,859 --> 00:18:03,589 This is just me speculating and wondering. 316 00:18:03,709 --> 00:18:07,579 And honestly, I think this is a more helpful way of looking 317 00:18:07,579 --> 00:18:08,899 at things in a more useful way. 318 00:18:09,399 --> 00:18:09,759 Although. 319 00:18:09,759 --> 00:18:13,739 Yeah, I know that other mammals have been shown to do appeasing behaviors. 320 00:18:13,739 --> 00:18:18,419 So maybe appeasement is more of a, a mixed state, like a true mixed 321 00:18:18,419 --> 00:18:21,659 state and not just a grouping of behaviors or behavioral adaptation. 322 00:18:22,289 --> 00:18:25,259 Fawning to me seems distinct. 323 00:18:25,979 --> 00:18:29,369 And seems like more of a behavioral adaptation to an 324 00:18:29,399 --> 00:18:32,109 ongoing stuck defensive state. 325 00:18:32,139 --> 00:18:35,409 Appeasement can be, seems like something that's immediate, but also 326 00:18:35,409 --> 00:18:37,299 something that's a long-term adaptation. 327 00:18:37,799 --> 00:18:40,169 So, again, I don't know the correct answer. 328 00:18:40,199 --> 00:18:43,289 I at least wanted to give you a new wrinkle to this and a new way of framing 329 00:18:43,289 --> 00:18:45,659 it and just let you know where I'm coming from, when it comes to these things. 330 00:18:46,439 --> 00:18:48,089 But I don't know the right answer. 331 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,749 I look forward to the day where we have- you know, through our 332 00:18:51,779 --> 00:18:56,969 watches, it'll tell us what our respiratory sinus arrhythmia is. 333 00:18:56,969 --> 00:19:00,509 And it'll tell us what our heart rate variability is. 334 00:19:00,509 --> 00:19:01,529 Actually, I think does that already? 335 00:19:01,979 --> 00:19:07,469 But at some point there might be a polyvagal Institute app that tells you 336 00:19:07,469 --> 00:19:09,269 through your watch what state you're in. 337 00:19:09,299 --> 00:19:12,059 I look forward to that day, but we're not there quite yet. 338 00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:15,649 Otherwise, thank you so much for joining me on stuck, not broken here. 339 00:19:15,979 --> 00:19:19,699 Being stuck as you know, shows up in many different ways. 340 00:19:19,699 --> 00:19:20,869 Like anxiety. 341 00:19:21,529 --> 00:19:25,339 Anger depression, overwhelm, panic, fear, and a lot more. 342 00:19:25,969 --> 00:19:29,449 If you're ready to take those next steps in getting unstuck without 343 00:19:29,479 --> 00:19:33,799 spending a lot of money, I invite you to consider subscribing to 344 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:35,689 stuck, not broken total access. 345 00:19:36,289 --> 00:19:40,609 You'll get exclusive access to the- no, actually not just exclusive, but total 346 00:19:40,609 --> 00:19:45,499 access- to the knowledge that you need through my Polyvagal Trauma Relief System. 347 00:19:46,099 --> 00:19:49,429 You'll have the option of connecting with others and spending more 348 00:19:49,429 --> 00:19:50,689 time with me in the community. 349 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:55,879 Plus a bunch of other stuff if you want to go even deeper in your unstacking process. 350 00:19:56,569 --> 00:19:58,219 Thank you for being a part of my podcast. 351 00:19:58,249 --> 00:20:02,959 And I look forward to welcoming you as a member of my total access community. 352 00:20:03,259 --> 00:20:04,979 Thank you so much for listening Fellow Stucknaut. 353 00:20:04,999 --> 00:20:08,149 I do hope that this episode has been a helpful resource for you 354 00:20:08,569 --> 00:20:12,979 in conceptualizing this polyvagal theory stuff and applying it to 355 00:20:12,979 --> 00:20:14,599 your own trauma recovery journey. 356 00:20:15,319 --> 00:20:15,559 Bye. 357 00:20:15,939 --> 00:20:19,359 This podcast is not therapy, not intended to be therapy or 358 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:20,849 be a replacement for therapy. 359 00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:24,709 Nothing in this creates or indicates a therapeutic relationship. 360 00:20:25,509 --> 00:20:28,799 Please consult with your therapist or seek for one in your area if you are 361 00:20:28,799 --> 00:20:30,599 experiencing mental health symptoms. 362 00:20:31,429 --> 00:20:34,689 Nothing in this podcast should be construed to be specific life advice. 363 00:20:34,829 --> 00:20:37,759 It is for educational and entertainment purposes only. 364 00:20:38,589 --> 00:20:41,469 More resources are available in the description of this episode 365 00:20:41,499 --> 00:20:42,579 and in the footer of justinlmft. 366 00:20:44,009 --> 00:20:44,349 com.