Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with

me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

Uh, you know what, been in eCommerce for a little while, since 2002.

And these days I get to partner with amazing e-com brands to

help them grow, scale and exit.

Uh, and if you'd like to know more about that, head over to the podcast

website, ecommerce-podcast.net.

You'll find out all about me, all about this show.

And all about our amazing guests, just like George.

George.

Man, I've been looking forward to this.

Uh, I just, I love our conversations.

I'm not gonna lie, I always sort of go away feeling a lot happier about

my life, uh, after we've chatted.

So it's great to have you on the show, man.

My friend, it's an honor.

And I feel like you're an og.

Og like 2002 in, in e-comm.

Like I'm like 2008, 2009, and I'm always the old guy and I'm

like, I hate to say it, but

Yeah, I'm older.

you got year older.

A year older.

You've been in the game for a minute.

Yeah, I've, I've been around, uh, depending on the, on the mood that I'm in.

Sometimes I'll use the phrase eCommerce dinosaur, just 'cause

Yeah,

quite cool.

I mean like in true, in true reflection though, like the level of cycles that

you've seen and the level of cycles you've seen repeat themselves from

2002, where everybody thinks it's always innovation, but it's like

reinvention back to what it was.

yeah,

The wisdom too.

That's why you have all the gray hairs in your beard.

Right?

Head is from stress.

Beard is from wisdom.

Uh, well I'll go with that.

'cause I've not got really that many gray hairs on my head yet.

They just seem to sort of be beard only.

So,

that's why I shaved my head because if I did, I have assuming

I would have a whole lot more.

yeah, you've got the opposite problem.

Is

And then I have like one gray patch right here where I'm like,

look, I got, I got, I got my first wisdom stripe coming in at 41.

Oh, brilliant.

Well, there's not that, I mean, I'm, I'm in my early fifties now, so

there's not that many years between us,

Yeah.

yeah, it's funny.

Someone said to me the other day a, a great phrase that I heard.

nothing exists in a vacuum, right?

Everything, everything in effect is just history repeating itself.

And, um, I, I'm always intrigued.

I don't know you've seen the same thing, George, but I'm always intrigued by.

Those in e-com always looking for something new.

You know, like the latest silver bullet actually e-comm for me is

just doing old school marketing principles really, really well.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

haven't changed.

Just the, the way we communicate it maybe has.

I couldn't agree more, and this is the hardest part.

People lose because they chase the dopamine, because success in

e-comm is simple because it can be scheduled, but it's boring.

So people get really distracted with that dopamine or that shiny thing,

and they always end up right back.

To where they belonged in the first place.

Like that's the thing that I've seen the most.

It's like I even, I even joke with people, like I have this model I'll draw for

them is like, what scaling looks like?

And it's a Christmas tree, right?

I'm like, 'cause even if you think about it, any e-comm people listening to

this in the very beginning, Parkinson's law dictates that we can only focus

on what actually moves the needle.

Because if not, we're gonna go outta business, right?

We're gonna let our investors down.

We're not gonna sell through inventory.

So like the trunk of the tree is like, okay, who do I serve?

How do I serve them?

What problem do I solve and what do I sell them?

Right?

And then we live in that bucket so frequently until something works, right?

But like if an Instagram post doesn't work, you're like, gotta let it go.

Gotta do another one, right?

If that campaign didn't work, gotta let it go.

Gotta do another one.

But then we get to the point where we get some space and then we try to go

wide and we're like, oh, that's working.

So let's go do all these other things.

And they build out like that first rung of the Christmas tree.

And this happens at every single business and at revenue levels too.

Like typically a hundred K, 500 K, a million, two and a half, five, 10.

It's pretty predictable.

So then they'll build out the base and then eventually they'll hit this

ceiling and they'll stagnate and they're like, oh my God, what's happening?

And they'll be like, what more do I add?

And I always joke with them.

I'm like, when was the last time you saw a rectangle Christmas tree?

Yep.

And they're like.

Oh, and I was like, no, no, because what happens is you got so distracted

with shiny bullets and all of it, you actually stopped doing the things

that worked in the first place.

So you have to trim back to the trunk.

Let go of what didn't work, keep what did work, but protect

that core of what's there.

And, and that to your point, is the thing that I've seen more than

anything, even with email, right?

Like, do you remember a couple of years ago, everyone's

like, email marketing's dead.

I'm like, no, it's not

Yeah.

just like, it wasn't when it was Yahoo or MSN and it's like still here.

And it's like, oh, but AI and blank.

And instead of it being this like end world where I protect the foundation.

And I'm willing to try something on top of it.

As long as it doesn't sacrifice, to your point, my ability to

execute the foundational strategies that work, then I'll do it.

But it became this or world, and I think that's the place that I

see people getting stuck the most.

It's like organic or paid.

I'm like actually paid requires organic to be successful in the long game.

Right?

And so I think that's how I see it.

That's such, such wisdom.

Uh, George, why I'm just aware of, we're, we're chatting away already.

Just introduce yourself a little bit to the guests so they,

they know who you're talking.

I know who I'm talking to, but maybe not everyone else does.

So just give us a little bit about yourself.

You know, I, I feel called in this moment.

I don't have business cards, but I have a poker chip in my pocket.

It's pink 'cause my favorite color's pink.

And it says your most valuable liability is what's on my actual business card.

I just label myself your most valuable liability.

'cause at this point I.

is such a great phrase.

I think I've done so much.

In such a short or compressed amount of time.

But you know, I, I tell everybody that like, I'm a dad first.

I'm an incredible partner and friend, but like, what I have a passion for is

helping entrepreneurs who actually care about their customers and their results

scale their business to change the world.

And I've been blessed to help scale hundreds of companies to

7, 8, 9, and two to a billion.

And some of them people know Vital Proteins.

I helped and on it, I've helped 20 authors become New York Times bestsellers

and God made me gifted to be the oz behind everybody else's curtain.

That's where he put my ego 'cause I was in front of it too.

I, I also have this dirty little secret.

I was a New York Times bestselling cookbook author, and I had a number

one app in the world and I had a million social media followers.

And then.

I had a godly experience and he called me back to integrity.

So I deleted all the followers, gave away the company, changed

my phone number, and disappeared.

So like I, I've kind of walked in this from physical

products to digital products.

And what I focus on so heavily is relationships, customer journey,

and the mindset required to have the results that we desire, right?

And one of the things that I say to people is like, you don't have the

business you want because you haven't become the person to run it yet.

Right.

Like you can't scale your business till you scale yourself first.

And I think people look at mindset and they think it's this like

woowoo thing or something I don't need to joke with or need to do.

But I always look at it for sports fans too.

Like whether you have like American or UK listeners, like I can take

a high school rugby player and I can put him on a professional

rugby field with the playbook.

He'll have the same plays that other team has, but he can't

execute them at the same level.

Eventually it can become it.

And when I think about entrepreneurs is we try to get all these playbooks,

but we never ask ourselves like how do we become the player to execute that

playbook at the level where it matters?

And so like I just have a soft spot in my heart for helping people do that.

And I've accidentally helped scale a couple hundred companies

and it turns out customer journey is a really important topic that

makes a big difference for people.

Yeah, no doubt.

I, I love this phrase.

I've accidentally helped people scale.

you've definitely helped companies scale, uh, to, to, to larger figures than me.

but it's, I I'm intrigued.

Uh, your journey is quite unique, right?

Uh, and, and the path that you've been on that the experiences that you've

had and with what you do now, and just the joy I think you have in life.

You know, the real sort of passion for.

Just for being alive and being around people is, is contagious in many ways.

What do you see the biggest mistake?

Um, if there was, you know, like one thing that you see every entrepreneur

or young and aspiring entrepreneur make when they're building or trying to

build their empires, what would it be?

Chasing profit instead of purpose.

Okay.

Uh, do you wanna dig into that?

I, I would love to dig into that.

Um, it's a really, really interesting topic because I. What I see is most

people falling into this trap of cha chasing success instead of significance.

And if you look at the world, what you'll find is, you know, entrepreneurs, like

I always joke with people, I was like, you can always tell an entrepreneur

because they'll have an exit and then 30 days later you'll read a news article

about them launching another company.

Launching another company, right?

Like, and one of the things that I say to people is that.

We spend our life convincing ourselves that we're building this business because

we want more time, money, or freedom.

But when in actuality the business is distraction and we're avoiding

the one relationship we're guaranteed to spend the rest of our life

with, which is ourself, right?

Like our kids don't want us working, they want us home, right?

And I'm like, oh, I'm doing it for my family, my eight year old's like,

dad, I don't care about the business.

Like, can we go to the skate park?

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so there's this semblance of understanding that like.

Success in itself.

I think the metrics that people chase set them up to lose by playing the short game.

They think that success is a hockey stick.

They think that it's this, like the one funnel that's gonna work

or this product's gonna pop.

But in actuality, you, you kind of make the game harder on yourself because

you don't get to learn the lessons that allow you to keep, continue to grow,

scale, build the team to pass those on.

And you know, for you and I, both men of faith, one of the prayers that I, or

phrases I wrote down on my wall for years is I oftentimes prayed to God for things.

I didn't have the character and scars to maintain.

Yeah.

And even from my own e-commerce businesses, there were ones where

like we hit a million easily and then we didn't grow past that point.

We started to sabotage into it because we didn't have the character

and the experience and the wisdom

or even the know-how to call somebody who did to bring them in.

And so when you think about success, you'll find that people will hit success.

The cost of everything.

They won't build a business to support their life.

They'll sacrifice their life to build a business, and then they'll look back and

realize they don't get that life back.

And then a few of them get inspired at whatever age.

Typically, it's some catalystic moment of like midlife crisis,

trauma, death, or just emptiness.

And you're like, oh, I need to go do something with this.

And then significance follows.

But here's the craziest part.

When you prioritize significance.

Success always follows significance.

And so it's just prioritizing the right things.

And even when I think about building a company or building a mission, like it's

totally fine to be driven by revenue.

Revenue is the vehicle that allows you to spread that mission and that vision.

But also when you think about the most successful companies in the

world, they're not built that way because people feel transacted with.

They're built that way because people feel transformed by them.

Like Nike's billboard doesn't say Just do it.

Only if you wear our running shoes,

just do it.

Only if you run a five minute mile.

Right?

Like, they're like, just do it.

Right.

We'll leave the sweatshop conversation out of this.

But like, you know, morals and ethics aside.

Yeah.

Just like all of us have had experiences where we've been in companies or

we've been a part of something.

Like if we think about car dealerships, at least in the us

everyone's like, God, I hate going.

They like play games with me.

They make me feel like crap, they transact with me.

They're trying to get more money outta me.

We forget that.

Like when we look at success, most of the success that people prioritize as revenue.

Revenue is a byproduct of a successful relationship.

A relationship is a byproduct of you actually helping somebody get results.

And then when you help somebody get results, you build a relationship.

When you build a relationship, they make referrals and also pay you revenue.

And so I find that like even looking at it the right way is like.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to sell a product or having a clothing brand, or

even selling a supplement and not like thinking you're gonna go be Mother Teresa,

but ensuring that the thing that you're making is tied to a bigger purpose or

tied to a bigger mission where maybe the mission is we're gonna sell this product

so that we can support our employees, or we can give them time, money,

freedom, or location freedom, right?

Like there has to be a deeper meaning.

And, and this is why I love Mike Michalowicz as an author.

He also has this book called All In, which is, is really how

to build an incredible team.

One of the things that he highlights out of it is the shared vision, right?

Like there's this vision piece of like, even if you're gonna build and

scale an e-commerce company, like you need to have some semblance of

idea of where you're shooting for.

And so I think.

The biggest way that I would describe and summarize that, you know, mini

TED talk that I gave, is that when you end up chasing success instead of

significance, you end up measuring in days instead of decades, and it inhibits

your ability to grow because you're too reactive to what's happening in

the day to day, and you don't have a picture of what's happening in the macro.

Yeah.

That's so powerful.

I've got, there's so much there.

George, I, I'm kind of curious, is this a, do you think this

is a bit of an age thing?

Because I, as you're talking about significance and success, I remember

someone said to me, a very wise chap once said to me, in your,

the first 40, first 40 years of your life, it's all about success.

You hit 40 and it's all about significance.

And it's like there's this shift that happens as you get older.

And I, I kind of listened to that and I, as I've got older and, you know,

as my kids have got older and I've got more embedded into my marriage,

I think my definition of success is very, very different to what it was

when I was in my early twenties.

You know, very, very different.

And so I'm listening to you talk and going, don't think it's as simple as

it's just an age thing, but I think is this thing with age that makes you see

things differently, rightly or wrongly.

I agree, but I don't know if I would submit that it's an age thing.

I'd think I would submit.

It's more of a values based perspective,

Yeah.

I.

right?

Because like I have, I have one of my clients right now who's 26 years

old, like I'm 41, and he runs circles around me with significance and impact.

Like he's like wanting to save the world and do this, and I was like.

And how'd you go from drug dealer to this?

And you know, it's like a funny story that we tell, but I think what it really

boils down to is I think age would be a really easy metric to potentially look at.

But what I really think is underneath it is self-identity and values, right?

Like knowing oneself and like what genuinely lights you up and brings you.

Joy in the world, but then also what are those things that you value?

And I know for me, I didn't realize how much I valued time until the

business that I had built and my son came along, cost me 160 flights a year

and missing three years of his life.

Well, now I takes an act of Congress to get me on an airplane outta Montana.

And they're like, what are you doing?

I'm like, I'll do it remotely.

I'll do it remotely.

And I'm like, he's laying eight feet away from me right now.

And they're like, oh, I heard him in the background.

I'm like, great, leave it in.

Like it's, it's, we're we're a combo package.

Right.

But I think that there was this perspective shift and there was a season

before him where like, I didn't value time

because I thought I had an unlimited amount of it.

And that's even crazier because I was an active duty marine for 13 years in

my life, like two combat deployments.

And.

I thought that shifted my perspective of like, oh, I've seen death and I've been

to places I shouldn't have come back from.

Like I really value time.

Nope.

I was just a right matter of time before I was back to old habits,

and it took me having a son.

To really, really recognize what I value.

So I think, I think what it boils down to for me is that like willingness to

look in the mirror and, and be really radically honest with ourselves.

'cause I also have friends that truthfully, they're like, my

life is to be an entrepreneur.

I don't want kids, I don't want blank.

Like I just love being in the grind.

And I'm like, well, I love you for sat.

I will support you.

I'll make you dinner.

Right?

But like, I'm not gonna come work on the computer with you.

But I think it really boils down to, to being radically honest with oneself

about what's important to you, what brings you joy, what lights you up.

And also not shaming yourself for having those beliefs.

And then number two is really like, what is it that you value?

Because I go back now and I look at like the mentors I've

had in my life, and I'm like.

Man, if I just listened to them 10 years ago and I didn't fight so hard, and I

was like, but then my journey is the guy who will self-knowledge that I won't

learn unless I fall on my own face.

Yeah.

It's never big enough for me to shift, and so I just kind of had to

fall in love with I'm the God that's gonna smack my face into the wall and

hopefully pass that wisdom down to somebody else.

But I think, I think it really just boils down to the things that we value in the

world and, and our willingness to explore those things with curiosity instead

of being so either dogmatic or locked into how we think we'd view the world.

well, I, I'm loving this conversation, uh, 'cause we'd not planned it.

And two, I, i, I very fortuitous timing one, one might argue,

um, I wrote quite a lengthy uh.

Article about purpose and values on Friday,

Mm.

one of the things that came out in the research, um, and

maybe we can talk about this,

Mm-hmm.

of consumers now, so one in two consumers actively, not

passively, but actively distrust.

Corporations purpose claims, right.

So I talk about, um, Wells Fargo had the purpose statement about helping customers

succeed financially while simultaneously opening three and a half fraudulent,

uh, three and a half million fraudulent accounts in their customers' names.

Um, Boeing claimed to prioritize innovation and

safety while cutting corners.

Uh, and, you know, the, the, the inevitable, uh, happens.

Um, there, there's, there's a, there's a. Littering of companies which have

had these sort of purpose driven ideals because we thought that's what we needed.

'cause that's what Patagonia did in Tom's shoes, right?

Um, but it's got to the stage now.

One in two just actively distrust it.

I think that's quite, that's quite telling isn't it?

A thousand percent.

A thousand percent.

I also think it's quite exciting 'cause I'll never not have a job,

Yeah.

This, the market's getting bigger.

just to be radically honest, like.

I, I was genuinely in a meeting the other day with a private client who,

who builds custom homes and, you know, they went from 2 million to 8 million.

And, and like one of the first things I said to 'em was like, values are not words

that you paste on as wallpaper values are words for people to describe how you are

being when you're no longer in the room.

And he's like, oh.

And I was like, that's what you've embodied, which is why

you've scaled the company, right?

Like, it's no different than a parent.

Yep.

Like, or a colleague or a business partner.

It's like, and, and I hate to say this, but like the amount of

personal trainers I've hired, I was a hundred pounds overweight.

If they were 300 pounds overweight, telling me that I needed to

eat different and move my body, I would've had a hard time

like justifying like,

Yeah.

Yep.

and, and not even because it's bad and wrong if the position is like.

Hey, I live this way, so go do it.

But if they were like, Hey, I don't live this way.

I'm just telling you I want you to avoid the pain, I would've listened differently.

Right?

There's this embodiment piece to where even, you know, one of the

core things I do with my clients, especially like physical products,

brands, when we're helping them scale, is building a movement,

which is truthfully an ethical cult.

It's a shared belief system.

Of like, you know, what's the impact we wanna make?

Like what do we stand for?

What is our belief system?

Right?

Like even at Vital Proteins, it, it wasn't people that wanted to buy collagen.

'cause nobody wants to eat the hide of a cow.

That's not like, oh, let me wake up and put cow hide in my coffee cup.

Right?

Like, that's not what we're marketing.

It's like they want to have healthier hair, skin and nails.

Right.

Or like even at on, at the supplement company.

Yeah, there were hundreds of products and what, but what everybody

wanted was to be the person who was totally optimized as a human.

Or even in my world, you know, when you go to my website, which by the

way, it's the Pinkest website you'll ever see 'cause it's my favorite color.

Yeah, I love the color.

Um, but it says, relationships beat algorithms because I only want you

in my world if you genuinely believe that your relationships with people

are more valuable than profit.

If you don't like it.

I'll love you out the door and there's a spot for you at the dinner table, but

you come in acting like a douche and I'm gonna kick you back out the door.

Right?

Like, not tolerated here.

And I think that that's the part that a lot of people miss is they

think that values or purpose or these words that we throw up on a wall and

they're like, oh, give these to hr, let's, you know, boom, boom, boom.

And you know, even with companies that we have, we're we're like, your

values are literally the structure.

It's like your human body and then the people that you put in and are

the blood that pumps through your body to be able to run your business.

And we're like, you hire and fire based on values

and then those values turn into beliefs that are operating

agreements for everybody to do, and then you train on skills.

And they're like, huh?

And I was like, yeah, you've been hiring on skills and wondering

why there's this like broken osmosis throughout the the company.

But you know, I think that's a benefit of me being a Marine for 13 years was like.

We had such a small group of Marines, but everybody worked so

cohesively together because they didn't train us how to be Marines.

They trained us how to think and feel the same way.

So then no matter what situation that we went into, there was

like this embodied example.

And so I, I genuinely look at that and I'm like, yep.

And I wish the number was higher, because I think that that's

where the world truly changes.

If there's enough of us that vote with our dollars and our attention.

We utilize these things that we see of like, yeah, we're not supporting you.

We don't believe in this anymore.

We're gonna hold you to a different standard.

I think it actually starts to change the conversation because

when you got into e-comm, I miss how business was done in 2002.

Like I miss pre-internet where like you had to call somebody and have to trust

them and like reputation mattered, right?

And you weren't like buying Google reviews or hiring Craigslist ads

for 80 people to go review your product and lie to them, or you know,

white labeling products everywhere.

There was like this.

Space for innovation and creativity, but underneath it, this massive

invitation for connection, it was real,

right?

Like people were still connected and.

I look at those things and just like I look at it for, you know, anybody

listening to this who wonders why business is hard in 2025 right now,

because for the same way that they don't trust corporations, they also

don't trust anybody that they don't have a prior relationship with.

We used to blindly buy products 'cause we'd see a Facebook ad

like, oh, here's a hot sauce.

I've never tried it before.

Now it's right past our filter for our unconscious mind, because if we don't

have established rapport or some semblance of endowment, we're so conditioned after

COVID and all the ads and the transactions and the false influencer marketing to

pass it by like it never even existed.

The amount of evidence or touch points it takes to get into your ecosystem before

ever buying has drastically increased.

And so it's just this really interesting thing that I, I'm like, I'm stoked

that you wrote a, a blog post or an article on it as well, because I think

it's the things that we have to think about as founders, as entrepreneurs,

as e-commerce owners, right?

And trust what I love about it so much.

It's the one thing that can't be faked.

It's real.

And like when people are like, well, I'm gonna go be authentic of like,

newsflash, you're already being authentic whether you're pretending to or not.

Right?

So there is no like, let me be authentic.

Yeah, that's so true.

And so I, I look at, I look at that and I look at companies where like

the ones that always win for us are the ones that are transparent.

Like if we have a supply issue.

We just open up and tell people we don't hide behind it.

We don't hide behind optics.

This isn't some PR campaign.

It's like we're in this with you and I, I think what people forget

when it comes to companies is that companies are two-way relationships.

They're not a one-way dictatorship because without your customers, the

bloodline of your business doesn't exist.

But what happens is, another mistake that I see people make is that they

turn off that pipeline and expect it to be their way or the highway.

But truthfully, the success of your business boils down to the feedback loop

that you're getting with your customers

and the journey that you're taking them on with you, which

so much is like being a parent.

We have a vision.

Both of our daughters are the same age, right?

But we have a vision for what we want their life to look like and and

how we want them to view the world.

Well, news flashes, dads, we don't get our way, but we just create bumpers and

we catch them with a safety net in the process, and then they give us feedback.

They push back, they lean in harder.

It's the same with our customers.

It's the same with our physical products companies.

It's the same with our digital products companies, is that there's this

two-way relationship, but everybody's fallen into the circumstance of

thinking it's a one-way dictatorship

and then that erodes trust as well.

And it's, it's just an important way, in my opinion to like think about it.

Like just even seeing it for what it is.

And it's like if you go into a brick and mortar store.

You'd never ignore somebody walking through the door to window

shop, but yet when you take your business online, you're like, they

haven't given me their credit card.

How dare I respond to their comment?

And I was like, well, let me know how that works if you were in person, right?

Or you know, you walk into a restaurant and the hostess just stonewalls.

You would ignore you.

And you're like talking and talking.

And I was like, are you gonna get a table there?

And they're like, no.

And I'm like, well, great.

Kind of same thing, but there's all these examples of like to your

previous point, successful marketing and business strategies that have

always stood the test of time.

And yet, for right now, it tends to be everybody wants the shiny bullet.

They want the shortcut, but they don't realize the long term cost.

Those are the things that are breaking the trust with corporations and companies.

But the only thing that's maintaining it is going back to what we said at

the beginning, which is the tried and true focus on people, build

relationships, have conversations, and be willing to play the long game.

I.

Yeah, I totally agree.

I think it's, um, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

Because I think one of the things that I have that Amazon doesn't

have, because this is a question I get asked a lot, George, right?

Is like, do I compete against Amazon?

Um, I. The answer in some respects comes down to pretty much what you've just said.

The one thing Amazon doesn't have is me,

Yep.

right?

They have, I have a relationship with Amazon, which is

very transactional, right?

They are a commodity trader and it is very transactional.

And at the moment I'm happy to use them because it's convenient.

It's, you know, it does what it says on the tin, but I have no loyalty to Amazon.

If someone came along tomorrow, um, and did it better, or if.

Without getting too political, Jeff Bezos decides to become the leading

spokesman for the liberal party, the opposite of Musk, for example.

We've seen what's happened to Tesla

Yep.

there, and you just kind of go, well, there's no loyalty there as such, there

is, but it, I, I, I'm not that bothered.

Whereas, um, in my hand I have, uh, a pen from Tom's studio.

I, I'm, I'm much more loyal to Tom and Tom's not Amazon, right?

He, and this is the thing that we, I think in eCommerce, it's hard to try and

get across to people that actually what drives you, what light to your language,

what likes you, what, what your values are, what you actually do in the business,

and the difference that you make.

Well, that's what.

If you find a tribe of people that connect with that and form a relationship with

them, well that's how, that's how you win,

Mm-hmm.

you do business in the long run.

And, um, I, I always remember the first major contract I

ever got was on a handshake.

I never had a contract with anybody.

It was just done on a handshake.

You do that, I'll do that.

Brilliant.

We never best contracts I ever had were done on a handshake.

I still do 'em that way 15 years later, it's the only way I do 'em.

It says a lot, doesn't

Mm-hmm.

It says a lot, you know, fill out this, do you agree to these 20,000

pages of terms and conditions, which screw you up every, which way you can.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

I have to, I suppose, but it's, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

I, I, long for the day when learn the value of a handshake again in a, in a

digital sort of format and how that works.

You know, I'll be honest, I've lost clients because of this, and I'll

look at them and I'll be like, Hey, I just wanna be really honest with you.

You need to be comfortable with me telling you I love you, or

you won't work well as my client.

And after time they're like, you know, I can't do this anymore.

I'm like, it's okay.

I still love you.

Like, there's this thing of like what you value and, and, and what you care

about to, to, like, that's the thing that I feel like is missing in the world.

It's like I still live in Montana and my favorite thing is like,

I genuinely brought sugar over to my friend's house yesterday

'cause they needed to borrow sugar.

Right.

And then I'll call him in a week and I'm like, Hey, I'm on a firewood.

And he's like, I got you.

I'll bring some over.

Right?

And then he is like, Hey, can you watch the chickens this week?

It's like going back in humanity.

But there's this like comradery and community that

I, I, I think we all forget.

We can bring in into your point.

Your USP is literally the present inside of the box where

your product and service is.

Just the wrapping paper.

Because the only thing that makes you different is you and

I even joke with people too.

I'm like, how many of us have been to an incredible restaurant

food wise, but had subpar service?

And I'm like, do you recommend it?

And they're like, no.

I'm like, how many of us have been to a restaurant with incredible

service and subpar food and yet we recommend it to everybody?

Yep.

And they're like.

Oh.

And I'm like, that's the difference to your point,

right?

And I've even had people like, well, I'm like, well I sell, you know, dog shoes.

And I'm like, well great.

How are you gonna deliver them?

How are you gonna speak about them?

How are you gonna do blank?

Like I even have a friend who has a CBD gummy company and she's like, no, no, no.

We make the best CBD gummies for wine moms.

And I was like, oh, that's really, really good.

And she like makes coffee mugs that says like.

Calm your boobs and like take a chill blank.

And she calls her customers her baby grandmas because they're not old enough

to have gra to have grandkids yet.

But she's like, but your baby grandmas 'cause we're working towards

your coffee mug slippers and CBD.

And I'm like, you are so good at this.

It blows my mind.

And they love it.

They love it.

And I'm like, and it's just a CBD gummy.

And yeah, do they have, you know, good ingredients of course,

but it's the same as 38 other.

Yeah.

Brands in the market, but they create this identity and a relationship with

it to, to your point, I think that that's the, the biggest secret sauce

is that, you know, they even did a study on this, and I'd have to find it

again, but the, the number was misquoted on TikTok when it went viral, but

they actually found that authenticity resonates like 480 times deeper in a

human being than the frequency of love.

That's interesting.

Authenticity, meaning I'm willing to be myself.

I'm willing to say how I feel.

I'm willing to share my values.

And it also happens to be, the whole point of this conversation is like when

you don't trust somebody, it's 'cause you can tell they're being inauthentic.

When you don't have a deep relationship or you're USP, it's typically because

there's a part of you that that's missing.

Like I have no qualms joking with people, even in business.

Like I'll go start a keynote with like.

Everybody's lying to you.

You're not one funnel away.

And everyone's like, and I was like, I know Russell Love Russell.

I still disagree,

Yep.

right?

Where I'm like, and I'll say this and I'll say this, and I'll say things

like, would you be okay if your grandmother went through your funnel?

And they're like, no.

I'm like, then why can mine?

Yep.

I was like, oh, it's okay to treat mine like crap.

But if I did the, and they're like, oh.

And I'm like, I'll say those things, but they're real for me because that's

how I see business in eCommerce.

But there's, to your point, so many people that wanna like live in almost

the fringe of like not saying anything.

But then they also turn off their superpower just like, who are you?

And I think authenticity's one of the easiest ways.

But to be authentic, you also have to know what you value.

You do, and you have to know, I think you do, you have to

know who you are in many ways.

And, and a lot of people who say, I'm just being authentic.

I'm like, actually, I think you're just being confused.

do, Do you know what I mean?

In, in terms of what they're saying?

Because I, I, I, this isn't, I don't think that's authentic at all, but,

Mm-hmm.

um, I, I, I, I agree.

I think.

And again, it's not an age thing.

Uh, I appreciate that, George, but as I become older, I become more aware of this.

Mm-hmm.

know what I mean?

And the, and the stuff that I would say to myself when I was a 20, 30-year-old

guy, I kind of look at now and go, what?

You know, fortunately I had some good mentors around me, like you who,

valued, you know, a handshake and you know, the let your yes BS and

your no be no was drilled into me.

Very on in my early twenties that actually what you say is more

important than anything else.

and if it costs you, what's the problem?

You do it anyway.

Right?

Because you, you learn from that in so many ways.

Um, it's, I remember, I remember years ago we had, um, we had

a bookkeeping company, right?

This was, sort of, uh.

Early naughties.

So just before, um, things went proper crazy with the web business,

so we had this bookkeeping company and an internet company and we

were doing a job interview, right?

And, um, I said to the guy that we were interviewing and I said,

listen, now you need to understand I have a certain value set.

Uh, and I. I have no issue whether you agree with me or whether you don't.

I'm not expecting you to have the same values as me in many ways,

but do expect you to uphold them.

Mm.

And so I was like, one of the things that we have to is we just don't lie.

own up, fess up.

We, we fix the problem, right?

Uh, when we're not into the blame game, we're just like, this is a problem.

This is how I'm gonna fix it.

'cause people I think, respond really well to that, especially

when you word it in the right way.

So he said to me, um, and I quote George, he said to me, that's no problem at all.

No problem if you get someone on the phone and you don't want to lie to them.

I totally get it.

So if you pass the phone to me, I'll lie to them on your behalf.

I was like, I was like, I think this interview's over, isn't it really?

Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

I don't, I, wow, I didn't expect that.

I didn't expect that at all.

Yeah.

And I, I love, I love the way that, that you, that you describe that too,

like I think all too often, I actually did a podcast on this, on my show the

other day, and I said, what we tolerate, we eventually embrace, and what we

evenly embrace becomes who we are.

I think the craziest thing about this is no matter what age you are or

where you are and experience, I think even with situations like that, like

human beings are born with two fears, loud noises, and the fear of falling,

everything else is a trained behavior.

It's not like we wake up and we're like, how do I end up evil today?

How do I agree to sell my soul and lie to somebody on the phone?

How do I agree to take shortcuts?

It, it ends up becoming this byproduct of consistent exposure

to these things that we tolerate.

That eventually we end up embracing because of us not having the

willingness to say, uh, yet, no.

I hold that line and you know, boundaries are only as powerful as your ability

to enforce them but also protect them.

Like they're not like, oh, I plant a seed and it grows.

It's like, oh, I have to water this and till this and run through this.

And, you know, I even think about it in the, in the game of business.

Like I joke with people that I'm like, forever the non-viral

king, God made me non-viral.

Not joking.

I've been doing videos on the internet since 2008.

I went live every day for like two and a half years.

Meka, Periscope, Facebook, Instagram, you name it.

I was a food blogger.

I'm talking about entrepreneurship.

I'm talking about marketing, scaling your business, sharing everything.

I've had one video go viral my whole career, one.

I am one for about 65,000.

Like we have six terabytes of video footage.

Like I'm not joking one.

And it was the one video where I was radically authentic and I started

the live video and said, I do not wanna be live today, but I made a

commitment to go live every day and I've no idea what I'm gonna talk about.

And someone's like, well, why are you upset?

And I was like.

I've been struggling with eating disorders my whole life,

and I've never told anybody.

Well, I guess I just told you now.

And then it turned into this three and a half hour live stream

and 23 million people saw it.

And I was like, this of all, and he's like, you were authentic.

And I was like, I.

Really, but like, I just, I joke about it because it's, it's this, like,

there's all these expectations and even, 'cause I'm a marketer, right?

So open loops in my brain drive me nuts.

So tying it back to what you said at the beginning is like there's these

silver bullets that people want, there's these shortcuts that people want, and

really all they are are distractions from you putting in the rep that's going

to actually give you what you desire.

They're just delaying the inevitable to where, like I joke with people,

like the fork didn't make me fat.

I picked it up and ate the cake.

Right?

But I also can't expect abs if I don't go to the gym and I can't be upset

if I go for one day and I'm like, Hey Matt, I don't have a six pack again.

I quit.

Right?

There's this understanding of like, it's this active pursuit.

I think that that's the part where people miss is the other biggest

mistake that I see besides the two that I've mentioned is the toxic thinking

of thinking there's a finish line.

Like, oh, I've made it, or, oh, I've arrived.

And I was like, well, the moment you embody that, you've already started

deteriorating what you've achieved because it's harder to keep something than it

is to achieve it in the first place.

And then the moment you think you've arrived, you stop.

And it starts eroding backwards over and over.

And so it's like, oh, my clients, like my pipeline's doing great.

Like we're making great organic sales right now.

It's just gonna stay forever.

Or, my ads are working right now and I'm like, wait till you hit ad fatigue

or wait till the new platform pops up, or wait till election season and your

Facebook ads go up eight times in cost.

Right?

Like there's this.

Yep.

You know, like I always joke with people if like in the world of

business, especially e-comm companies, if there's not a check engine light

on your dashboard, I'd be petrified.

Because if I don't see a check engine light on my dashboard, I drive my car

into a wallet and I try to make one.

Because

Yep.

if there is not something being refined or quote unquote broken, then

we're just coasting and it's just a matter of time before the Titanic

ends up on the bottom of the lake.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so, it's so true.

Stagnant water always stinks, right?

And it's, it's that.

That's such a warm, way more eloquent way to say that.

Like with way less words.

Yeah, I, and I couldn't think of.

It's the same thing as, and I think if you, you're, you're right.

I mean, and the gym analogy's great, isn't it?

It the day you stop going to the gym is when it, it all starts going wrong.

And I I, I think you, on one hand, we've got this hustle culture, which

is, you've gotta put in the work, right?

And on the other hand, you've got emerging culture, which is

like, well, hang on a minute.

No, I, I still want time.

And I think, um.

Paul said it best, didn't he?

When he said, I know what it is to be rich.

I know what it is to be poor.

In both these situations, I figured out how to be content, right?

And I think there's this, there's a difference between being content and being

Uh, Do you know what I mean?

I, I, there's a difference between being grateful.

And not putting in the work tomorrow.

Like I'm grateful for my health, therefore I don't have to go to the gym.

I'm content with where I'm at in the gym.

Therefore I don't have to go in And I think, I think it's a wrong thing.

I think.

I think we do ours like you said.

I'm just echoing what you said here, George.

I think we do ourselves a disservice in many ways.

We do, we do.

Yeah.

There's this, it's the inversion of the other side, which is the, uh, I

have a friend who, he's actually from London, I believe Jamie Smart, wrote a

book called The Little Book of Clarity.

Right?

And it's really a book dedicated to toxic thinking, right?

How many times have we looked in the mirror and we're like, oh man.

You know, I'm gonna start my diet on Monday, or I'm gonna start it on

New Year's, or I'm gonna, you know, start this writing habit next week.

And I'm like, all that is, it's toxic thinking.

It's delaying the inevitable when the gift arrives and not putting it into practice.

And, and to your point, this is the other side of it, right?

Where there is no finish line and, and gratitude is an active state.

When I express gratitude, what I'm saying is I'm willing to keep

doing the work to keep this thing

not, I'm so grateful I have it, I'm willing to lose it again.

And it's this, I had an incredible friend on my podcast and he's like, I think

everybody needs to look at wellness and redefine it as active pursuit.

Yeah,

Because

the moment, and I even say this about integrity with men, when

I used to do men's coaching.

Men have this weird relationship with the word integrity because they think

they're in integrity everywhere.

But truthfully, in this moment, the only person I'm in integrity with is you.

Because if I ask my son where he wants me, he wants me tickling,

tickling him on the couch.

If I ask my partner where she wants me, she wants me in Canada visiting, right?

Like if I ask my best friend who's like over here for dinner, the only place

I'm in, integrity is the place I'm actively pouring my present attention.

Yeah.

Everything else is waiting for me to bring it back into integrity.

And it also frames to your point of like being content where I am, but also being

willing to pursue the ability to keep that or support that or to pour into it.

And, and the way that you described it, and I love how Paul says that,

it, it really applies everywhere it applies to our team, right?

Even when I joke with people about scaling your business, I

say the reason that, you know.

You can't scale your businesses 'cause everybody thinks it's relationship with

your customers, but it actually starts with the relationship with yourself.

And then that trickles down to the relationship with your team,

which then both of them trickle down to the relationship with your customers.

Right?

It's actually an inside out job, not an outside in job.

And that toxic thinking thing applies too.

It's like, oh, well, you know, I'll, I'll start going to the gym again when

I hit a million dollars in revenue.

I'm like, you not going to the gym is why you didn't hit

a million dollars in revenue

Yeah,

because an.

things are linked.

Yep.

Every time.

The first thing is I'm going to sacrifice myself, which is a lens

of scarcity and perspective where we're not seeing it, whereas the

boundaries or the, the things that we tolerate or prioritize are the things

that actually make it happen, right?

Like I'm, I'm unapologetic, like good luck getting ahold of me before 10:00 AM

I don't care if there's 77 text messages.

I still will not see them till 10:00 AM because my do not disturb is

on, and that's when I get home from dropping him off at school and I

finish my hour of sacred time with God.

Other than that, it doesn't even exist in my world.

I'm like, you know, the five people that can, 9 1 1, we can get through.

But there's this level of like, we have to be willing to invest in ourselves.

We also have to be willing to protect ourself in that process.

And I found that, I'd say the biggest mistakes I made in my career of

like why I built so many companies and, and built so much success and

went from $500,000 months down to zero and back up and like six times.

'cause you know, I don't learn.

I finally learned.

Yep.

I finally learned is because I had avoided the relationship with myself, everything

was just a compensatory behavior.

I'm like, oh, it's working.

Okay, well let me go break it now so I have something else

to prove, or it's broken.

Let me make it really, really good again.

And you know, it was like never, I could never sit down.

I could never sit still.

And I had a, a monk on my podcast who's a dear friend.

He was in.

Monastery for seven years in silence.

And he described the secret to success better to me than anybody.

And he said, if you can't take a poop without your phone, you've

never lived a day in your life.

Oh, what did we do when we went to the toilet before the

mobile phone existed, right?

And then I look at it and how entrepreneurship is a celebrated

addiction as a distraction from being in a relationship with myself.

I don't have to sit there in the silence.

I don't have to create space for God.

I don't have to handle the thoughts and the feelings that are going in because I

will forever have a bucket that will allow me to numb and distract, and the world is

going to celebrate me the more I do it.

Yeah.

That was like my hard truth,

and that took me getting, I did a three year.

I'm not allowed to consume content cleanse.

Mm.

After a come to God moment, I literally deleted social media.

When I gave the company away, I deleted a million followers.

I disappeared off the internet.

I didn't read books.

I didn't watch booms.

I didn't listen to music with any lyrics, and it was like the

biggest drug detox in my life,

and it took about nine months for me to get so sick and tired of feeling that way

that I realize when you can't consume, there's only one thing left you can do,

which is create, and then all of a sudden.

There was this place to put my energy and attention, and then

everything started working in my life.

But now it's the thing that I crave the most, like

people know me as, like this guy who speaks and coaches, I'm the

biggest introvert in the world.

You see me in an event, my natural state is sitting over in

the corner staring at the wall.

You're gonna think I belong in a padded room.

I am just so peaceful and content.

I'm like, are you okay?

I'm like, yeah, like I love myself.

Like I just love sitting here.

I. By myself, like in silence.

And even my partner Joe, she's like, you wake up in the morning

and I thought you were dead.

Turns out you're staring at the ceiling in a stillness practice.

I'm like, oh, it's so good.

Like, I don't wanna be asleep.

I wanna be alive, but I also don't have anywhere to be.

I'm like, totally okay.

And content sitting in my body.

And I think that it's a muscle that the more we flex, the better our perspective

and the better our ability To your point.

To pursue those things that really, really matter to us, like to be content, but

also constantly be sharpening and putting that pressure on ourselves to become that

version that can have the business or have the body, or even have the family

or the relationships that we desire.

So powerful.

listen, I'm aware of time, but I, it's, um, just to come back to

that, that final point, I think

it is a divine thing to create.

I think it's one of those things that is actually, I. Innate inners as a sort of

part of our divine DNA is to be a creator.

Right?

And, and I think you cannot create, if you do not have the space, and if life is

just 14 hours working, I don't understand where you are creating anything.

And just the ability to not pick up the phone, to sit and stare at the

ceiling and just be bored and think.

I think is probably the times where I've had the best ideas about my e-com

businesses over the years is if I, if I'm honest, it's not when I'm knee deep,

14 hours into writing Instagram posts or whatever it is, it's more no, if I'm

on my bike, Do you know what I mean?

Or, or just being bored, staring out the window on a train and all

of a sudden, boom, there it is.

And uh, super powerful, man.

Listen, how do people reach you?

How do they connect with you if they want to do that?

What's the best way?

Yeah, so truthfully, the best way is you either think I belong

in a padded room, or you don't.

Either way, you're right, and I love you.

So if you're in the padded room bucket, you can just check out the

pinkest website in the world, which is mindofgeorge.com, my podcast.

sales pitch.

It's how do you get people to tell, get to your website, determin.

It's the Pinkest website in the

It's, it's so good and it's my favorite color.

Like I literally, it's around me everywhere.

And also if like, I can answer any questions, strategy,

questions, t like anything, like I love connecting with people.

My Instagram is like the best place and my Instagram is, itsgeorgebryant,

the it's is included, it's ITS and then georgebryant, which I know they'll

have the link in the show notes.

And to your final point, Matt, the way that I would, I would

resonate this for everybody is that.

The biggest challenge most of us have is we're never quiet

enough to hear God's whispers.

And when you're intentional about creating the space and for, for

everybody listening, your God is fine.

I love my Jesus, right?

I also love you for loving whoever you love, but your God is fine.

But that space to your point, is being intentional to create the

space and then the ideas can flow in.

And that doesn't happen when you're sacrificing, when you're

struggling or when you're grinding.

It only happens when you slow down and allow yourself the

space for those things to land.

Yeah.

Very good.

George.

Thank you brother.

It was an honor, my friend.

the show.

We'll definitely have to do this again.

I feel like it was warming up, if I'm honest with you.

Oh, I'm ready to do a whole tactic and strategy episode.

Let's go.

I.

Let's do it.

We'll, we will get that booked in.

But um, thank you so much for joining us.

Uh, and thank you listeners.

If you've been joining us, uh, this week, uh, it's been great to have you along.

If you're new to the show, warm, welcome to you.

Make sure you like and subscribe and do all of that good stuff.

But yeah, fundamentally, that's it from me.

That's it from George.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Have a great week wherever you are in the world.

I'll see you next time.

Bye for now.