This is Colin True, and if you think outdoor media might be broken, come join us over at the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree, because this is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.

Every Monday, join me, producer Dave, and our industry insider and consigliere Owen Comerford to dig into the weeds of the business of going outside.

On Wednesday, we get a little more adventurous as accomplished outdoor journalist Justin Houseman and I talk about the latest headlines to come out of the outdoor adventure community, and Fridays are reserved for hot takes and special guests.

There will also be parting shots and views expressed that you probably won't get from a corporate press release or a standard outdoor podcast.

So join us on the Rock Fight, where we break down the outdoor industry by saying the quiet part out loud.

It's an open discussion and we'd love your feedback, so don't forget to bring your rocks, look for and follow the Rock Fight on Apple, Spotify or your favorite podcast, apparently foreign.

Welcome to Open Container.

I'm Doug Schnitzman.

I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.

I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I once found a Clovis spearhead in the wild and I put it back.

Who gets to tell the story?

If you're like me, you.

Your outdoor education is deeply rooted in ski movies.

I learned how to be a ski bum.

I got the confidence to turn my back on a normal career, which never felt right to someone like me anyway.

Watching Glenn Plake work that Mohawk down impossible steeps on ridiculously long skis, flicks like the White Room and P.

Tex Lies in Duct Tape told me that being out there pushing the limits could make you something.

When I started to live like that, spending winters bartending or living off the money I'd made fighting wildfires, my buddies and I would always quote the incomparable Trevor Peterson, who in one of those films rolled into a ski town with no plan and simply declared he was going to send out some vibes and surf some couches.

On a more serious level, I also found inspiration in the pages of magazines like Climbing, where I followed Jonathan Waterman to Denali or Paul Gagne to the cliffs of Baffin Island.

In the old Outside, magazine stories like Donald Katz's King of the Ferretleggers or the narratives of Jim Harrison and Tom McGuain made me want to become who I am today, a traveler and reporter on this Outdoor World.

I was also a student of the classics of American nature writing Thoreau inspired me to see my connection to wildness in its most basic sense.

I learned the land ethic from Aldo Leopold.

As you may have guessed already, there was just one problem with his education.

It's incredibly limited.

Our stories of the outdoors, from the joys of ski bumming to the philosophy of being, have been told for the most part through the lens of white men.

My blind spot, of course, is that these stories spoke just fine to me, but they provide a very limited perspective.

I should say that I did not limit myself to white male stories in the outdoors.

I swooned over Gretel Ehrlich's essays the Solace of Open Spaces.

I immersed myself in the fiction of Louise Erdrich.

I followed the exploits of pioneering extreme skiers like Kristin Ulmer, Wendy Fisher and Allison Gannett.

But come on, those were the exceptions.

And it got old.

Such a limited idea of what the outdoors could be not only keeps out women, people of color and those who don't see themselves as extreme, it limits how I could envision and enjoy the natural world.

Those classic ski flicks will always be gold, but there are many more ways to see and learn about the outdoor experience.

Over the past three decades, I have been overjoyed as I have watched the outdoor space change.

New stories and new voices are taking center stage.

Where the outdoor industry used to be only about the extreme, where it used to try to scare people out, it is growing into something that is a part of a much more representational way to see who learns, loves and plays outdoors.

This cultural shift is essential.

Outdoor storytelling should run deep to the roots of all perspectives.

We need Indigenous stories, trans stories, Chicana stories, black stories, funny stories, sad stories, stories from people who are not seen as part of the outdoor diaspora adventure from all angles.

If we miss these, we miss the full experience.

And we need to go deeper than representation in front of the camera or in marketing materials.

The beauty of the outdoors is that it is open to all.

Outdoor stories should come from everyone.

My guest today is redefining who gets.

To tell outdoor stories and how.

Danny Reza Costa is an award winning advocate, filmmaker, writer and cultural strategist who left the corporate world to pursue self actualization and cultural reclamation through outdoor adventure.

She has been named the Alliance Member of the Year by Protect Our Winners for Climate Advocacy and Explore Fund Council Member for the North Face in 2022, featured in the Washington Post, New York Times and more.

She's the founder of Rural Colorado, based on Afuera Productions, whose recent work includes TV credits like Dispatches and film credits like well Worn Life and the Outlier film series.

So let's open the container with Danny Razacosta.

Danny Razacosta is one of the most incredible people I know.

She's really a force.

She's an activist, she's a writer, she's a marketer, she's an adventurer, she's a gardener.

And she is an incredible philosopher about life and life in the west and life in the outdoors.

So I'm really excited to have her here.

And I think the best thing, since she does so many things, is to just ask you, Dani, like, who are you?

What do you do?

Thanks for having me, Doug.

It's always with a little bit of humility that I try to figure out how to talk about who I am and what I'm doing in the world.

And so instead of slapping a title on it, I typically just say that my work and my being is centered around connecting back to nature and with all those around me.

And that work looks like many, many different things.

Sometimes it's making a film, sometimes it's harvesting from our small orchard of heritage trees and feeding our community.

Maybe it's organizing a run club and going out to romp in mountain lion country.

And here in our rural western backyard, maybe it's getting on stage and talking a little bit about inclusivity, strategy and brand design for the next generation.

It's a lot of things, but it's really all centered in how do we connect to each other, ourselves and nature.

And I love that you're, you know, kind of your business name or your working name is Nomad Creativa, which kind of combines all that together.

Right.

Are you a nomad at heart?

Is that why you chose that name or.

Yeah.

So.

Well, when I started that business, which is, you know, it's my dba, I think most folks know me either as not lost, just discovering.

Sure.

On online, or as my true name or as the production company, which is Afore Productions.

But Nomad Creativa was started right after I left corporate Life back in 2014 and bought a one way ticket to South America and then eventually discovered Dirt bag Life Vehicle Life and chasing a life adventure.

And I think fundamentally it was trying to bring together this idea of finding that journey within as much as embracing the journey that happens outside of.

Outside of our bodies.

So as we move through space and time, how do we reexamine what we're going through?

And for me, it was a.

It was a journey that still continues of finding self and healing from a whole bunch of Personal things that had gone on in my life as much as trying to figure out where my compass was pointing.

And I love that about you, too, that you're someone who does have.

I mean, you had the experience of corporate life, of corporate marketing, so you come into it with that understanding of how that world works.

And you're also someone who goes out every day and puts your hands in the dirt.

And you have chickens.

You have chickens, too, don't you?

I know you have chickens because you sent me eggs once.

We do.

You know, I'd say we did have chickens.

They are now.

They went in the freezer.

We have.

We have some ducks that are working hard, even though we still have.

The snow has melted this morning.

But our ducks are part of our regenerative farming experiment.

And.

And they're kind of like they're livestock, but they're definitely kind of like weird little dog pets that fertilize and make food.

It's strange.

And maybe that's.

I mean, that's an essential part of you now, too, that you've, you know, you've wandered around so much.

You still do travel a lot, but you're also very rooted in your home where you live and the farm.

Tell us about that side of yourself.

Maybe a little bit, too.

Yeah.

So I think it's kind of a funny story to.

If you go back in time, I think, especially someone like yourself, Doug, right there, when I first found out that you were, like, had such a punk rock, I think, approach to work and philosophy, but also this concept of Zen right of balance and intention.

And I was like, okay, how do I work with this person more?

But I think also that same philosophy shows up in my approach and in my partner Johnny's approach.

And both of us were on these journeys of climbing and backcountry skiing and touring and.

And doing all of the outdoor things and trying to figure out, like, who are we and what are we doing in this world?

And trying to live this life of adventure and intention, more importantly.

And yet, when we settled where we settled back in 2018, really, truly in 2020, when we established ourselves, it wasn't with intention.

It was more an idea that the universe told us we had to pursue.

So Johnny had purchased a small former orchard in this land that, when it was colonized, had been planted by settlers from the Midwest who brought with them all sorts of orchard fruits, like apples and pears and walnuts and peaches and apricots and all that kind of stuff.

And so some of those trees still exist in our area.

And so he bought a little plot.

And the first year we came and dropped a shipping container, put all our climbing gear in it in November, and put the skis in the vans and the snowboard in the vans and drove away, came back in the spring, planted a garden, tried to start building a house as it were, figuring things out.

Moving to the exurbs is, I think, a fantasy that a lot of folks, particularly millennials, have, because social media and media tell us this is an attainable future for us, since for many of us, living in a mountain community isn't necessarily affordable.

And so we would try and build this house.

Turns out it's actually really hard and really expensive.

And then in the winter, leave.

And so we did this for a couple of years to go chase snow and so on.

And then in 2020, we all know what happened, and we literally became grounded in this area.

And so that started what we affectionately have called the rural experiment.

And, and it's been a really mixed, I think, experience for two folks that really define themselves by their pursuits outside and the way that they spend their professional time.

And I think to move to a place where.

So we're in a high desert, it looks a little bit like Utah, looks a little bit like Idaho, looks a little bit like western Colorado.

Right.

So we have, we have in our backyard big mountains, but we also are literally surrounded by high desert and so with plentiful water.

And so I think for the first time we found ourselves in this kind of like non turnkey community where we were questioning a lot of who we were and what are we doing in this place and were we welcome, were we not to move to this place that is very small, very insular in 2020, as a woman of color who is self employed, we were definitely stuck out like sore thumbs.

You know, if you've ever, you've ever spent time with rock climbers and backcountry snowboarders and skiers.

Yeah.

There's like a certain way we dress and that is not necessarily what, you know, we weren't surrounded by those folks anymore.

And, and I think we were doing a lot of questioning.

And yet we really just stuck to the thing that we were trying to do.

And even though that's changed forms over these, I guess it's almost.

See 2018.

Is that six years, five years?

Yes.

Yeah, I can do math.

It's been, it's.

Yeah, it's.

I think what I've.

My takeaway personally is that this kind of space shows you who you are.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And if You're a community builder, then that's who you're going to be.

If you're a hermit, then that's who you're going to be.

If you really want to get after it, then you have the space to do that.

We don't have the same kind of social pressures as I would have if I was still in a mountain community.

I was talking to another friend who same kind of lifestyle.

She was a competitor on the Freeride world tour for a few years and she's now a farmer and a mom and works in local government.

And she also has had this kind of like shifting of identities that's been really interesting.

And we were talking the other day about how great it is to be able to have that balance of who we are now in relation to who we just want to be without the pressure of social.

Without the pressure, I think of a society that says, like, I mean, it just snowed, let's go tour.

Right.

There's no space right now.

I'm literally talking about my experience of the last two days.

Right.

Am I going to drive to go touring on and bottom out on like two feet?

I don't know.

Not sure.

Got work to do on the farm.

So what, I mean, so that's interesting.

You say, so what, you know, so after you did make this move and you've been there, what has that shown you about yourself that you didn't know before or didn't see before or hadn't been expressed before?

Yeah, I think, you know, I think the first thing that I took away is that I was really complacent.

I.

And I think that was a really hard thing to.

To.

It's really hard to hold up the mirror and say, this is how I've been.

Right.

When I've been in these communities where, you know, all my friends are, are touring or climbing or they're, you know, social media supporting a petition to do this thing or that thing that like, it all feels good and it checks that box.

And I think I didn't realize that I had this like vortex of kind of like deep loneliness inside of me of like, what is my connection to self, to land, to others around me.

And so my big takeaway from living here and I think having all of these like, thoughts and like identity migrations and whatever it is, is that fundamentally I've learned that I deeply want to foster connection.

And whether that's by making time for myself and my self care or beating it back into creative projects or into a beautiful dinner with friends or starting something that can support and help develop my community into the resilient and beautiful place that it is, then, like, what am I doing?

So this is a lot of rambling.

Not at all.

Not at all.

No, no, no.

It's digging.

No, it's perfect.

Well, let's take it.

Let's take a step back then, and why don't you.

Why don't you tell me about, you know, outward facing, larger stuff.

What are some of the big projects you've been working on?

I know the Outlier film series that, you know, you just did a segment of that.

What other big projects have you been working on or you're excited about?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I will say, just to put a bow on that last piece, it's so difficult to encapsulate the living in an expansive rural west as your identity and your business and your work and your outdoor pursuits are shifting.

And so if for nothing else, I think sometimes I'm grasping at straws to figure out how do I encapsulate this thing?

And maybe the takeaway is just that it's led me to embrace this fact that life is full of adversity and being resilient is.

Is really cool, even if it really sucks a lot.

Yeah, but you're finding.

But you think that living there, you're finding more space to be resilient.

Right.

In a certain way.

Even if the community might be resistant in some ways, or even if it's, you know, the west, like you said, the west is changing so fast now.

Right.

Which must be hard for some communities that haven't changed in a long time.

Right.

Yeah.

But I think what's been really interesting is that I don't.

I don't see myself as an outsider anymore.

And I don't think that folks in that community do either.

In many ways, I realize that those folks have showed up for me and for the things I care about way more than people in mountain communities have.

And I think that's really tough thing to say.

It's almost like, do you remember Dave Chappelle?

Do you remember Dave Chappelle?

Oh, of course.

Oh, you can talk about Dave Chappelle.

Yeah.

But there is this in 2,020 or 20, 21, when I was like, how do I.

How do I fit in here?

Do I fit over there?

Like, where should I go?

Where do I belong there?

I remembered this line from Dave Chappelle, and it was something like, you know, you know why I like racism in the South?

Because it is seasoned and well flavored and, you know, exactly what you are getting.

But, you know, I think racism and exclusion in communities of privilege.

So not just mountain communities, but communities of privilege is not well seasoned, and it is insidious, and it is pervasive.

And unfortunately, it is delivered to you with a smile on your face.

And that's what you experience more in mountain communities or sort of insular outdoor communities.

Right.

Who are totally.

Yeah, yeah.

But let's.

I will say we should go deep into this when we talk a little bit about storytelling and how stories are being told.

Okay, we'll put this on hold for a minute.

Let's talk about your big project.

Let's talk about something exciting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Projects.

Projects.

Well, projects never end.

So about a year and a half ago.

So let me step back.

February of 2023, I started a production company.

And the goal of that production company was to be able to tell authentic stories of impact.

So the idea of stories beyond stoke, knowing that the outdoors and the landscape or palette that nature provides us has for so many years been used to create excitement and stoke and energy.

And oftentimes, folks are leaving a screening or finishing a YouTube video or even a short reel on Instagram feeling psyched up.

But for what?

The idea is to channel this energy and into something that provides meaning and depth and community impact.

So this wild idea I had to do, impact outdoor storytelling, or impact storytelling in the outdoors, is fundamentally grounded in wanting to do something that honors the land and builds more reciprocal relationships with the communities that host us, to drive and build equitable and fair compensation for everyone with whom we work.

So no one works for free.

And to ensure that everyone that's in front of the camera as well as behind the camera, has their experience honored in a truly humanist way.

Since starting that company, we've done a series for outside tv.

I'm working on my third film.

We've had all sorts of amazing collaborations, collaborators that are both in and working in and beyond the outdoor industry.

So we have real Hollywood people working on our.

On our films.

And that's been a source of great joy and healing, particularly because I think a lot of my experiences before this in outdoor media haven't.

I mean, besides, working with you have oftentimes felt really transactional.

And I think as a person that is in front of the camera but also plays that role behind the camera, to be able to identify and name that is a tricky thing.

But also it's something that I think needs to be done in order to help this industry evolve, because we are at a strange, awkward time in the outdoor industry, it's like the Awkward team.

Yeah.

I mean, and I think it's probably indicative of all industries and the media in general.

Obviously, after this last election, everything we're seeing, there's a.

We're fractured in so many ways.

Right.

So it is going to be a rebuilding process, maybe of visions like yours and visions of other people who are coming up now and replacing these old media standbys.

Right?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think to that point, it's been really beautiful to see other players emerge in the media space and some of whom we've been able to collaborate with, whether that's like Monica Medellin, who's the story advisor for the second chapter of Outlier.

So Monica had one of the, I think the fastest, like, number one hit on Amazon prime, the Surf Girl series.

She's been an amazing collaborator and, and just like watching I think even like the, like, she got to work on the Red Bull Rampage, the women's event.

That's great.

Yeah.

And to see a lot of folks that I've, you know, I don't mountain bike and I don't work in mountain bike media, so.

You should, you should.

No, I'm sticking to trail running, man.

It's a lot cheaper.

That's true.

But plus, if I did mountain bike media, then I wouldn't get to go run.

And I love running.

But, yeah, it's been, it's been really beautiful, I think, to see, see players that haven't traditionally haven't come through the traditional means of outdoor media and legacy outdoor families to claim their place in this space.

To help, I think folks like me, but also just stories that need to come to the fore emerge as such.

I think beyond AFODA Productions, beyond the Outlier project, we had some really cool ripple effect partnerships start coming out between the first and second episode.

So last year we did a whole Impact tour, AKA film tour.

And so we worked with Vamonos Outside in Bend.

We screened at the Silverton Powerhouse here in Silverton in Colorado.

We worked with Illa, which is an app that creates community for women, and did a screening in Moab and had done quite a few screenings more, I think nine in total.

We just did an internal one with Altera and got to work with their Multicultural Matrix, the employee resource group, to do a live screening and Q and A and just work with folks who haven't traditionally seen themselves in front of or behind the camera.

And that's been really, really beautiful to just think about what kind of partnerships can we be building?

Because I Think when I started this production company back in February of last year, I was so burnt out.

Like, I'd been hustling to be this athlete as well as a storyteller, and my mom had cancer and we have a farm.

Right.

And so I was at this place where I realized, like, something's got to change.

And I think, you know, like any founder, that something is like, well, I can either sit in this discomfort or figure out how to do it myself.

When you kicked ass with that, obviously, too.

So.

So let's go to one thing you told me you wanted to talk about before we came on, which is you wanted to talk about just the outdoor industry growth shifts in general, what we're seeing kind of anomalies and exciting developments.

I know this is something you wanted to talk about, so let's hop to that.

Now.

Tell me what you had in mind.

One of the things I wanted to talk about in terms of emerging players and the role we're seeing them play in this industry is that we're seeing, I think, a diversification for the types of small organizations that aren't just trying to pop onto the scene, even if it's difficult, but are actually really making an impact.

So specifically thinking of what that scrappy mentality does in terms of how it shows up in funding, how it shows up in media, and I think two really good examples come to mind, because those scrappy organizations haven't just made themselves, haven't found their modicum of success just by getting there, but also how they're carrying things forward.

And I think there's a really important lesson here for organizations of all different sizes.

So I think two case studies, if anyone's been paying attention to both lives and designs out of Arkansas and nara, formerly known as two great companies.

Yeah, yeah.

So both of these exam.

Both of these organizations were, you know, started working with, like, very small niche product.

Very, very niche product.

Curiously, both pants.

Right.

I wasn't trying to make a pants case study, but there you go.

And, you know, lives and made a product, and they started with one product and they made it really, really well.

It's awesome.

Yeah, I have.

I love them.

I love them.

Yeah.

You do?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I wear them all the time.

The canvas ones, right?

Yes.

Yeah, I love them.

Yeah.

So I got to work with lives in on a film production and help them launch their women's pants.

So the same flex canvas pants.

So I got to wear the same pants for three days and do everything from work in the garden to go rock climbing to take them out hiking and biking and all sorts of stuff.

So more on the partnership later.

But I think what's really beautiful is that when I look at these two case studies of how they're partnering with folks like me, but also with each other and with other customers and requesting feedback all along the way.

Have you been engaging with the NARA product at all through its.

Absolutely, yeah.

No, I've watched them evolve all along.

And for people who are listening and don't know, Nora used to be called Shefly and their kind of signature product was a woman's pant that has a woman's zipper that makes it easy for a woman to squat and pee in the outdoors if she needs to, the way a man can.

So yeah, exactly.

And I think to, to just if you haven't checked it out, these pants will literally change their life.

You know, Forbes called them the best outdoor pants on the market.

Their go there pants have the most useful functionality for women's adventures.

The go to hiking garment.

And they do.

This zipper is like where the seam would be right in the between the legs and you can't see it.

This pant is like kind of a like a soft shell, stretchy material you can fit.

One of the funniest claims to fame that they have is that you could fit an entire nail jean in a front like thigh pocket.

I've done it.

I wouldn't recommend it because it looks a little weird, but you can put your whole Nalgene in your pocket.

And you know, women are always talking about how we the pockets aren't pants on pants, outdoor pants aren't big enough.

And customer feedback has been taken into account.

And I think for from a product development standpoint, to see how both of these brands have included feedback at every single point of the customer journey has been really beautiful.

And if you'd like to see what I'm talking about, just sign up for their newsletters and you'll get a glimpse at what they're doing because it's insane.

It's amazing.

And their responsiveness, I think obviously being small companies, they're certainly more agile but they are able to do things.

When they teamed up earlier this year, Luzon has these amazing canvas overalls, thick, beautiful twill canvas overalls.

And they teamed up with NARA to throw one of those zippers and overalls and my mind was blown.

The world has changed.

Do you know what a pain in the rear end it is for a person with lady parts to wear overalls and dehydrated?

It's a pain, right?

And so anyway, you know, I wanted to bring this idea up of like, what are scrappy organizations doing that can.

That we can all look towards and model?

And I think when I look at where we are, you know, post election in 2024, with supply chain changing drastically, with PFAS going away with all of these different things that we're thinking about as consumers, but I think also as folks working with brands or in brands that, you know, fundamentally being scrappy and agile and doing even like limited product runs is such a beautiful way to see how to stay agile, how to be responsive to a customer.

You know, I'm looking too.

It's an organization like Batinsky out of Silverthorne, Colorado, who's been working with Kiva, which is a great example.

I think both LIVES and NARA have also gotten funding, which is diversifying their funding streams.

Right.

So we've all, myself included.

Right.

As an organization, we've all started to reach beyond just direct.

Direct funding from investors or equity and look towards crowdfunding or perhaps other types of partnerships to be able to create products that feel like they are responsive to a market.

And.

And I think it feels like 2025 is the year of being agile and scrappy and figuring it out and doing things.

Even if it's really frickin uncomfortable.

I'd love.

Yeah, it's going to be uncomfortable for sure.

But I love that for two reasons.

I love, first of all, I think, like these brands too.

I mean, Nora started out as a student project.

Right.

It's women or student project.

You know, lives in from Arkansas, a state that is kicking butt when it comes to really exemplifying what the outdoor space and industry can do.

So I think they really exemplify how outdoor brands can be started from just one idea still.

This industry can still do that where people can be real entrepreneurs.

Right.

And I think it also gets to something that, that we're trying to make this podcast be about too, which.

Which is outdoors.

Isn't this inclusive niche thing.

Right.

It's not just, you know, the people we're talking about in mountain towns who make you feel not part of it unless you're there.

You know, these are, you know, outdoors as part of everyone's lives.

And I think both those brands are able to take that message out there even further.

Right.

That it's not about some special club or, you know, being able to be a great mountain biker.

Right.

So.

Right, absolutely.

I mean, Livesen is based in Bentonville, which is like apparently mountain biking capital.

It is, it is, yeah.

And One of their biggest products is overalls.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's not outdoors.

You know, that's not just, like, special Patagonia climbers.

That's not the classic Hollywood idea of outdoors is someone with a frame pack that's not outdoors.

There's a bunch of white people in puffies.

Right.

It's much broader.

I will say, I definitely posed to this beautiful sunset pic where we're riding the bikes out onto the gravel road, and I'm definitely wearing a puffy underneath my overalls on a bike.

And I had a couple friends.

That's awesome.

What is this?

I'm like, I don't know.

It's.

We can all do this.

Like, this is just what I was wearing.

Yeah, it's.

I.

Yeah, I don't know.

I think.

Yeah.

One of the.

When I think about where we are as an industry, in this, like, space that I occupy, as.

As storyteller, as athlete, as disruptor, there is this thing that I hope our industry and everyone, no matter what our role is in it plays, which is that we.

We're more than cogs.

Right.

Like, we can be scrappy, and we can take an idea and turn it into something that has mass appeal and gets so many people excited about doing a thing just because of one scrappy idea.

Which I wanted to bring up two other cases in point, which are not small brands and I think are really, really worth paying attention to.

Have you been following the Scarpa athlete mentorship initiative?

Absolutely.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

And Kim Miller, who runs Scarpa, is visionary, so.

Yes.

Okay.

So since you've been following it since its inception, what, like, two years ago?

Three years ago, I think.

Two or three years ago.

That sounds right.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

What is, like, the biggest shift that you've seen in that program, either internally or in the impact it's created because.

So, boy, you're turning it around on me now, asking me some questions.

Yeah, I sure am.

Doug, you're going to get out of this conversation.

I wish I had a good answer for you there.

I would think that it is that, you know, this is giving other brands the chance to see the ability to do the same thing.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, that is.

That is a great, great point, because I think other brands have attempted to do the same thing, but by and large, Scarpa has done it the best.

Right from how.

And I say this as someone who interviewed folks in the program, folks that want to be in the program, folks internally at Scarpa, and what's really beautiful is to see, I think, how this mentorship initiative, while it was a top down program, so started by Kim, the CEO, Right.

Or CGM President.

CEO.

Yeah, One of the two.

Yeah.

Of Scarpa North America.

North America, Yeah.

Big cheese.

So when we look at, we know that any type of initiative that is intended to be grounded in inclusivity always has to come from the top down.

And I say that as someone working in the inclusivity space, knowing that if we don't have leadership buy in, we're not going to have the funding, we're not going to have the resources we need to make it successful.

And oftentimes the goal behind it might be short lived or short term.

And so I think one of the really beautiful things about what Scarpa has done is that it's created this insane ripple effect in the industry of folks because they're not just trying to groom athletes.

I think it's important to note that what they're trying to do is.

What did they say?

We're trying to see more folks from historically marginalized people at all levels of our industry, whether that's sponsored athletes, professional guides, company leaders and in our boardrooms.

So there is this approach that they're taking which is totally game changing from any other inclusivity or mentorship initiative, which is that we don't want to just see you in front of the camera as an athlete.

We want you in leadership positions.

We want you to understand whether it's how to tie the appropriate knot for the right situation, how to escape a belay, or maybe it's how do we have a conversation that's really difficult with your team.

Right.

From a leadership perspective.

And it's been, gosh, I just, I can't wait to see how this, like the results from this program in five years, 10 years.

And I don't know, maybe that's a pin to.

We'll have to check in with some of those folks.

Yeah, I mean, I think as you, as you say, it gets to something really important about inclusivity and diversity is it's not something that can be just plugged in.

It's something where people need to be brought into the industry and put into leadership positions.

And that takes a while.

That takes real commitment.

It takes years.

I think for so long, the end of 2021, it was like the industry was like, oh wow, we should do something other than put straight white dudes in front of the camera.

And so they started to shift their talent.

But for the last couple of years, you know that there's been some stagnation right and so talent composition has maybe shifted in terms of like, who are we photographing, who's in our marketing ads.

But I think it's really important that folks know that that's not inclusivity.

Right?

That is.

No, that's tokenism.

Yes, that.

Well, it's a means to sell more stuff.

Right.

And at the end of the day, we live in a capitalist society.

This industry is, you know, I think in its best forms it's high minded and inspiring our connection to each other and nature, but it's also like selling stuff.

And so just because you put someone in front of a camera, that's not, you know, a straight white dude, doesn't mean you're being inclusive.

You're not empowering them to be the person behind the camera as you are and say, yeah, no, no.

And I think.

Go ahead, go ahead.

Oh, I was going to say before.

We get into that though, you had.

One other brand you wanted to talk about too, and then I think we can get deeper into this conversation.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think that's the segue, right?

Like this.

So there's been this kind of emergence in the last, gosh, what would you say, like five years, right.

Of, of or the chasm between influencers and athletes.

And I think there's been a lot of discomfort out, you know, from the consumer side or from the athlete side and looking at brands and how they're working with different folks from different backgrounds.

Are you a creator?

Are you an influencer?

Are you an athlete?

Are you a community builder?

Right, like what's the title that's being used?

And I think we can look at the, there was a ton of backlash when Eddie Bauer fired their whole athlete team and brought in influencers.

And I think the same thing, same thing can be said for outdoor research and shifting their athlete team and kind of using the same title for all of the different folks.

And obviously I haven't worked inside of either of those brands, so I can't speak to what they were going through.

But sitting on this side of the screen, there were a lot of difficult conversations I was hearing from my communities.

And when I say communities, I mean brand the established mountain folks as much as, you know, our black and brown and indigenous and Latinx and Asian and queer folks, right.

Like in our, all of our folks that, that haven't traditionally seen themselves in those spaces and aspire to be community builders.

And so I think there was this discomfort from the consumer side of like who, like what is the box that we fit into?

And then from the kind of like guide level, elite athlete space.

Like, why are these influencers taking up our space?

We've worked really hard to get here.

And so I think there was kind of this tension in between all these different groups.

And I have just learned that STEO based out of Jackson Hole.

Ironically based out of Jackson Hole.

Right.

But Steo of all brands is doing this amazing work to try and make some really healthy delineations that feel empowering to folks working with that brand.

Full disclosure, I am working with stio.

That's fine.

But that's, you know, I got into a deep conversation with Sarita Ackerson, who I work with over there.

And Sarita and I were talking about what it means for their brand to double down on story and stewardship as an organization.

And gosh, it made my little like, I kind of like wear two hats in these conversations.

There's like the athlete hat that knows I have to make media and do the social, like do the social media thing, do the film thing, go to events.

But then the other hat is that brand person.

Right.

Like you can take the girl out of Nike, but you're never going to take the Nike out of the girl.

Like they're, you know, that's an advantage.

Yeah.

And so when she was talking to me about the intersection of stewardship and story and what it means for them as a brand and, and how they've.

They've basically chunked their, or I don't say chunked.

They've created different groupings for the folks that they're working with that activate their brand and bring it to life.

They have their mountain athletes.

So those are folks that are working in story as much and community as much as being outside and loving to share and steward these places.

And they have our sponsored athletes and those are going to be your folks who are really working hard at pure, objective, like completion.

Maybe those are fkt people.

Maybe those are really sendy skiers or snowboarders, whatever that is.

They're trying to kind of push the level, an envelope, edge of the envelope of what is possible from a physical, objective, complete accomplishment standpoint.

And then there's the home team.

So the home team is kind of like the JV team and depend upon how you're performing in that space.

Then you kind of go into one lane or the other.

But yeah, it's been really interesting learning about this because I think for so long you heard a brand saying like, oh, everybody's an athlete.

Right.

And that, you know, some folks would turn their nose up at that and say, well, I don't know what makes an athlete.

I am an athlete.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know, I was at an event last month and someone was like, well, aren't you an influencer?

I'm like, like, that feels like a little bit icky to me.

Right.

So like, what are the associations we have?

And so I thought it was a really beautiful delineation and healthy kind of way to say we have our folks who are, who are influencers and are trying to figure out like where they want, which lane they want to choose.

We have our folks that are going to be storytellers and we have our folks that are going to be out there ticking lines.

Yeah, I thought that was really nice.

So I'd be interested to see in the next year, two years, how other brands start to talk about their athletes and talk about their influencer activation teams.

Because I know there are several brands, names off the record for now that are still figuring that out.

And you know, athletes are getting fired or their pay is being cut significantly and they don't feel great about losing some of their income stream to I think what they, and in some ways I perceive as folks who are sometimes like just here to sell, like the balance of soul.

Right.

Like, how do we balance soul and money?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, and then getting back to what you were saying before, I think the brands that are really empowering people of color, voices that haven't been heard before, and the brands that are doing it just as tokenization.

Right.

And what is the difference between that and how can you empower instead of tokenizing?

Right, right, absolutely.

So I think, yeah.

You know, again, coming back to the fact that we're in those gangly, awkward teenage years in an industry like, I want to know, what are we going to see in the next year?

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Well, I just love the idea of the industry, you know, expanding.

How much richer can it, can it be?

And I think it goes back to what we wanted to talk at the beginning, right?

You go to some mountain town community and you're only judged on how many days you ski, how well you ski.

You know, you're only unjudged on sort of these really immaterial things.

They're great.

I love to ski, I love to mountain bike.

They're part of my identity, who you are.

But we're also much deeper things than that and our communities should be as well.

So it'll be interesting to see how broadening can change what those communities are, where we can still get the stoke.

Right, but still get a better idea of what the outdoors is and who it's for.

Right.

And what is that?

What is that?

I guess my question is what does that narrative of expansion look like for this industry?

We'll see.

I mean, I think it's going to be led by people like you.

Right.

I think, I mean, that's what you're doing right now is redefining the narrative.

Right?

Is redefining who gets to tell the stories and how they're told.

Maybe as long as we don't get ourselves burnt out.

But I think part of that same narrative is tied up with this idea that endless work and endless, like endless hustle, whether that's in the snow, on the trail or at the computer, is not a way to live your life.

Right?

To burn the candle at both ends negates the experience of being human.

And we have to create space to like, to grieve, to feel sad, to like freaking sleep or, or to like wake up.

I Woke up at 4:30 this morning, like all chomping at the bit, but it was snowing outside and I definitely did not want to go running at 4:30 in the snow.

It has its value, I guess.

But I mean, I think, I mean.

So I think the essential question for you especially, right, all the time, is who gets to have a voice in the outdoors?

And the outdoors is not just stuff, right?

It's not just outdoor industry.

It's something much, much larger and meaningful and engaged.

Yeah, no, that's a great question.

I think it's, I think there are two schools of thought, and one school of thought says that who gets to have a voice in the outdoors is who we say gets to have a voice.

And that is, that is the status quo.

That is the Old Boys Club or the Good Old Boys Club.

That is the kind of like direct project sponsorship, funding model.

That is the non crowdsourcing, non, I think, non democratic model of how do we share story and that is, I think folks like myself, like Vanessa Chavarria Posada, like Monica Medellin, these are just folks I've gotten to work with, right?

Like Olli Rai, like Sam Davies, these are like Charlotte Purkle.

Let me just plug all my collaborators.

Please hire them.

They're amazing.

But you know, I think folks like us are trying to say, like, there are different ways to tell these stories, but there are also different voices that need to be heard.

And traditionally, the voices that have been heard are the ones that have the most access, the privilege of time, the like privilege of having friends with cameras or with, you know, houses that have great access to trails or snow or what have you.

And I think while it might be an uncomfortable truth, the fact of the matter is that this model is not sustainable.

This model is not one that is.

It's not just inclusive.

It's just, you know, there are only so many affordable housing units that can be built in Jackson Hole or in Telluride or in Crested View.

People are going to have to live down valley and we are going to have to find a way to create space for their stories and their experiences, too.

And by the way, let's also elevate the way that they want to tell stories.

I think one of the most painful realizations I've had in the last year is that there is this really uncomfortable schism between what we might call the hook and bullet crew and the traditional outdoor folks.

Even though I very much disagree with this bucket of traditional outdoors.

As do I.

I would argue that traditional, traditional outdoor folks are ones that are hunting, fishing, we are processing food, we are cultivating, you know, all of those different ways of traditionally and ancestrally being with the land.

In any case, I know that a Lot of folks view traditional outdoor sports as skiing, mountain biking, trail running, rock climbing, etc.

Anyway, and so there's the schism that I've realized is there.

I mean, I think we all can acknowledge that oftentimes folks live in one bucket or another, but there's a lot of transfer, right?

Like, I have a lot of folks, friends that may live in a mountain town, but come, they definitely hunt, right?

Or they definitely fish, or they do all of the things right.

And I think that's the beautiful thing about having the privilege of time and money and access.

But more importantly, if we zoom out and look at that 10,000 foot level, there's this uncomfortable truth that we are associating the folks that are hunting and fishing as being on one part of the political spectrum.

Everyone else is being on the other part of the political spectrum.

And while that is a problematic realization in and of itself, what's even more problematic is that that when we talk about conservation and when we talk about justice outside, we are not looking at folks that live in both of these spaces or that use both of these spaces as their primary means of connecting with nature and themselves.

I'm specifically thinking about several different conservation initiatives that have unfolded in the last year and the really paternalistic manner in which these big established organizations have operated their outreach, which has been primarily urban, primarily to the traditional mountain sports.

So like your skier, biker, mountain biker, rafter, trail runner, cruise, and haven't haven't broken out of that traditional fortress conservation model to say we need to be radically inclusive of the folks that are on these lands because they're also telling the stories.

I think when we look at how does justice outside get served, it's not just creating space for historically marginalized voices behind the lens.

It's not just making sure that folks have the appropriate gear, no matter where they live, whether that's a rural community or an urban community.

It's also about making sure that we are listening to the voices in the space, whether it is they live there today or whether they live there millennia ago.

Because it's really easy, I think, for folks to say, well, we talked to this tribe.

Check.

We have polled the Latino group over here.

Check.

And we've connected with some urban black folks too.

Check.

We've done our due diligence.

Right.

I could get really granular on some of these different initiatives, but I think just broad strokes, one of the things I'm observing is how our industry really has a lot of work to do on how we're inclusive of the gateway Communities themselves that are hosting our adventures.

Yeah, that's a brilliant point and far too often overlooked.

And I think there's a danger of it being after the 2024 election, too.

I think there's a danger of that getting even worse as there is a backlash against people and there's more polarization.

So that is a big worry.

I think there's also.

When we're talking about.

But I think you were talking about influencers and brands and everything.

I mean, when we're looking at the outdoors, too, it's so commodified when we look at it, just from being an influencer or being a brand or something like that.

And there's this other inclusivity that everyone can experience everywhere.

Right.

From any group, which is the connection to the land.

Connection to.

I think you were talking about deep ecology as well, and the land itself having its own value.

Right.

So that's important, too.

And that's outside of outdoor industry.

That's outside of brands.

That's outside of influencers who, let's face it, are commodifiers themselves.

So, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think if we go back.

So I was first introduced to the idea of deep ecology through La Chapelle.

Doris lachapelle.

Doris La Chapelle, yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Like, years ago.

And at the time I was, like, sleeping in my Subaru all the time in Silverton, just trying to snowboard Powell, and Jenny Brill had given me a book or turned me onto some Doris Chappelle thing.

And so that was how I kind of learned about what this understanding of deep ecology at least is through the lens of mountain sports, as it considers mountain sports.

And so, I mean, but this idea is not new, right?

Like, this idea existed for millennia.

Yeah.

And I think most of human history.

Right?

Yeah.

Most of humans history.

Right.

Almost.

Maybe like all of human history.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

Well, it's just that understanding that there is inherent worth and value of all living things, and I would argue even more than living or more than human or non living things, and that they all have value, whether or not they are.

They can be used by humans.

And so, like, I think in, you know, broad strokes.

Yes.

The outdoor industry hopes to embody this through, you know, think about 2012, 2015, Instagram.

Right.

Just like inspiration, inspiration porn, left and right.

Like, this is why we're going outside.

But here we are now, 12 years later at this uncomfortable place as an industry and thinking about how do we.

How do we not just sell stuff, but how do we still hold on to this Idea that everything has inherent worth.

How do voices like mine and others doing the work to make sure that we see value in all living and more than living beings, like get elevated?

Because I think it's really easy to say, well, I'm sad, I should buy some new skis and go skiing.

You know, I mean, I'm only saying this because this is literally something I witnessed.

So like, right, like is this how, is this how we're.

Is this how we're medicating?

Right.

Are we medicating with our consumption or are we looking to our experiences outside in a way that fosters not just our understanding of the place and the self, but connection?

Because fundamentally connection.

If we, if you've ever read like Blue Zones or know anything about like, what is it that facilitates human health and happiness, it's that connection is what makes us feel real and valued and loved.

And so I'm philosophizing again.

Love it.

What about.

Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Oh, I was just going to say what about you?

I mean, when have you had some really those moments that kind of transcend everything else out in the wild when you really felt connected and seen a deeper side of existence?

Oh yeah.

I mean so many, so many.

I think it like the turning point, honestly.

Like the first, the first real like in my face moment where I could see my lived experiences paralleled in nature.

Which is different from feeling that connection.

Right.

So because I can talk about like my first multi pitch or you know, the bike rides I used to go on with my dad at the beach when I was a kid.

Yeah, like all of those are, you know, are wonderful memories and great connection.

But I think my first understanding of, of this like deep ecology perspective or oneness with nature or what have you was I was running up in the LaSalle Mountains in Utah and I'd gone there.

This is one of my first times that I was like, I think I might actually be able to make a summit push today.

And there was enough snow, the weather was right.

Like the creek I have to ford was not flooded and so or like really, really high and I could get my low little car over the creek and so made it to the trailhead and start, you know, in the dark and started huffing my way up that trail and I can't.

It's like two, three plus thousand feet.

I'm not, I can't remember.

I either do it too often or not often enough, but I can't.

It is not an insignificant amount of vertical gain.

And so it's just like Switchbacks up this mountain until you get onto the alpine tundra.

Then you're rock talus hopping until you get to your final summit push.

And so all of this is in the dark.

And I've just got that focus on the headlight, the little bobbing light of the circle of light.

And you're following it and feeling all the feelings.

And the feelings I was kind of processing, which is something that anyone that runs or does any kind of endurance sport I think can appreciate, is how the amount of processing that you get to do during this moving meditation.

Sometimes there's pain.

Sometimes, like, you're going through all this physical stuff, but at the same time, you're like.

You're thinking about, like, I just moved to this rural town.

None of the friends that had said they would come visit have come visited.

You know, I've lost all my jobs because it's the pandemic or, like, I broke my hand or whatever.

Whatever was going on at that time.

I remember that.

Yeah.

And I just actually, literally, they happened back to back.

So it was like, pandemic, broken back, pandemic a year later, broken hand, but I could run.

And so I'm following this little bobbing light.

Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.

You know, bopping up that mountain, huffing and puffing solo on this little mission.

And I get to the saddle, and I start to see to the east this.

The very, very beginnings of the sunset, right?

Like the wisps of light that start to just peek over the horizon.

And I'm like, okay, maybe I can get the summit.

We'll see.

And then there's this other voice that's like, it's fine.

It doesn't really matter.

Just have fun.

Go for it.

So I'm, like, having my own little battle about how fast I should go.

But anyway, I buckle down and start talus climbing and still climbing.

There's snow on the summit ridge, and then I'm there.

And it's a beautiful summit.

It's kind of flat, like many summits, even though on one side, it's incredibly exposed, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's a 50 classics line, right?

Ski line.

So very exposed, very beautiful.

But it was right at that moment where I'm, like, breathing really hard, and I look to the east, and the sun has just started to peek over the horizon.

And it's at that point where I'm realizing, like, the San Juan Mountains are, I don't know, like, 100 miles away, maybe, maybe 50 as the creek lies.

And to the west is this red, red, red desert.

They're the apajos.

There's just, like, all of the canyon lands, all of this amazing topography.

And I just start crying because I've.

I've been thinking about how I felt so isolated and so lost and so sad and, like, so broken, like, literally broken, but also, like, emotionally and in some ways, like, mentally broken, right?

Like, what is my work?

Why am I here?

What am I doing?

All those big existential questions.

And I just have that, like, the rush of euphoria from not just standing on the summit, but feeling like as I looked out to that red desert, I realized this mountain is its own.

It's an outlier.

It is a geologic outlier.

It is a young, uplifted metamorphic rock that is very, very different than this beautiful red desert around it.

And this red desert is something that everyone loves.

You know, during the pandemic, folks still got to go to.

To this area after a certain amount of time.

And yet, like, here I am.

Like, I feel like I'm this mountain.

Like, I'm this outlier mountain, and I'm still worthy of something, and I'm still, you know, like, finding my own inherent worth at the same time as seeing the inherent worth of this place right as the sun was rising is kind of like one of the most amazing things I've ever experienced.

And that striation of color that just streaks across the sky at the same time as seeing my little goat friends below or my little cow friends below, and the peace rock and the orange rock, and it's, like, welded.

I think it's welded.

Tuff.

It's ash.

There's a lot of volcanic ash up there and the red desert below.

And just being like, I have a place in all of it, and I'm not really sure what that place is, but I know it's more than just standing on this summit.

And that's the day I went home and started working on my pitch.

It's beautiful.

So, sadly, we've got so much more to talk about, but sadly, we're running out of time, which just means you're going to have to be on again.

We're going to have to do a Danny Part two.

But I think for the final question, something I ask everyone, every show is just at the end and especially post this election, and worried about the outdoors and the planet, everything else.

What is it that gives you hope?

What gives you hope?

My hope, I think what gives me hope is that so many of us choose to do these things that create suffering.

So that we can find a better version of ourselves.

And that my hope is that we can transmute those understandings and insights into our work and into our way of being and into an understanding that.

That this space in the industry that we occupy isn't just about KPIs and quarterly deliverables and making sure your program is funded or what have you.

This is about making sure that that same soul that we found in those pursuits is about making sure that others can find theirs too.

And that recognizing that within other is also self.

And if we can see that connection, then I think we can start to break down some of those historical barriers that we've put up about talking to folks who might not do the same sports as us or being uncomfortable in spaces when we don't know how to have a conversation.

Whether that's going into what you perceive to be a very politically different community, or maybe that's going into a very different socioeconomically different community and just going into these spaces as a person and ready to listen and ask questions and remember that if we want to see this industry succeed, we have to remember and hope for more than just our own personal accomplishments.

We have to remember that we have to bring everyone else with us.

And this isn't just about our industry.

This is about Mother Earth.

Love that.

Beautiful.

No words to live by, words to move forward to, words to give me hope.

Danny, it's so incredible to talk to you.

As I said, I mean, you're just one of my favorite people on this planet and.

Well, before we go though, could you tell people how they can find your work?

Can you tell people who feel more marginalized how they can get more involved and anything else you'd like viewers to have to be able to connect to what you do?

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, first I will say once again, thanks for having me on.

It's always a joy to get to spend some time philosophizing with you.

Doug.

Folks can find me on Instagram at Not lost, just discovering.

That's all.

All one word.

Not lost, just discovering.

Or my low key favorite social media platform, LinkedIn where I'm Dani, Dani Reyes Acosta.

Please like our page Afuera Productions as well follow our project, the film project we've been talking about outlier film series and engage, you know, send me a message.

Reach out, please.

Truly, I will always answer you.

It might take a minute, but I will get back to you.

And I think, yeah, closing it out.

Anyone that I think first, I want all of us to recognize that we have some kind of difference, right?

Like whether that's how we look, our religion, our gender, our sexual orientation, our nationality, our ability.

Like those are things to be celebrated and, and no matter who we are and how we feel like about that there is something beautiful.

If others haven't yet seen your value, then I just want you to remember that it's up to you to see your value first and show them, because they will appreciate you.

And there will be so many people once you start doing that work, but you realize they're on your team.

But you got to start with you.

Amazing.

Thanks, Tani.

Thanks, Doug.

I'll hang up.

Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight, llc.

Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on, and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com learn more about Danny Raz Acosta at at danierazacosta.com and follow her on Insta at Not just Lost Discovering Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True.

Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert.

I'm Doug Schnitzbahn.

Get some thanks for listening.