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Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

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of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

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power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

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we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

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capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

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we need. In May, In after more than two years of salting the workplace and organizing, workers

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at a Laval Amazon facility voted to unionize. Initially, the logistics and tech giant tried

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to challenge the legality of it. When that failed, they stalled on negotiations for over six months.

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Workers held rallies, they presented very reasonable demands, tried to move the process along. Then,

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in late 2024, CBC reported that Amazon were close to making their first offer. Now, that

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was on December 23rd. On January 22nd, Amazon did make an announcement, but it wasn't a good

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one. It wasn't even a bad offer. They revealed their plans to close all of their Quebec facilities.

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Not just the Laval location, and put 2,000 people out of work. That was a big fuck you to Labour.

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Union busting at its worst, really. Our next guest, John Milton from the Canadian Centre

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for Policy Alternatives, makes the case that it was also, in fact, illegal. So, what did

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workers do about it? What did the government do? That's exactly what John's here to talk

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about. On top of the work already being done, John also shares some great tactics we've not

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yet deployed to bring down not just Amazon, but it's exploitive business model that just

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feeds off our communities. So let's meet John and get to it. Welcome to Blueprints, John.

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Can you introduce yourself to the audience for me, please? Yeah, thanks for having me. So

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my name is John Milton. I am a writer and editor at the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives,

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a sort of left-wing political and economic research institute. And John, you wrote an article,

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you've written many articles, I've been poring over them. And it was in particular one about

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Amazon closing facilities in Quebec and what our response maybe should have been. Folks

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might remember the audience, we did go over what this meant for workers in Quebec and

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some of the issues around it, but John really unpacked it from what organized labor. could

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or should be doing, what our governments could or should be doing. Right at the top of your

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piece, and I'll share that in the show notes so people can pore over it, you say that the

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closures of these facilities, which 2,000 people lost their jobs, were illegal. Why were they

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illegal? People close factories all the time, right? That's right. I mean, is factory closures,

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warehouse closures, these types of things happen. These are sort of normal pieces of the economy

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that we live in. What makes this different though is that the warehouse closures were

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quite obviously although Not this is not you know, if you were to ask Amazon why they closed

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a warehouse They would say something about market forces. That's quite vague But it's quite

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obvious to any observer that one of that that the core reason why they decided to close their

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warehouses after investing significantly in the province to build new warehouses and create

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sort of quite a bit of infrastructure in the province is because there was a successful

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union drive in one of Amazon's warehouses in Laval, which is a suburb outside of Montreal.

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Observers who watch what's happening in the labor movement, with Amazon in particular,

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may know that a couple of years ago, there was also a successful union drive at an Amazon

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warehouse in New York, which did not result in those warehouses being closed. The difference

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is that Quebec has better, more worker-friendly labour laws than New York does or these and

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some of these other jurisdictions. The core difference is that in Quebec, companies where

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a union is legally formed, which was the case here, you know, there was a the majority

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of workers at Amazon's warehouse in Laval decided that they wanted to be members of a union which

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automatically forms the under Quebec's labour code. Now, that happened in Quebec, just like

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it also happened in New York, but the difference is that in Quebec, labour law says that if

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the two parties, the workers and the employer, are not able to come to an agreement for a

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first contract, for a first collective agreement, union contract, within a certain amount of

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time, then the matter can be sent to an arbitrator, a sort of neutral third party, let's say,

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who will then impose a collective agreement. For Amazon, that meant that for the first time

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in North America, they were going to have a union contract in their Laval warehouse. And

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Amazon is a company that has built its entire model, its business model on being a sort

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of what they would call a union free environment, a place where they can set the working conditions

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themselves without having... to actually negotiate with their workers collectively, right? That's

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their entire business model. And so having even a single warehouse where that's not the

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case in North America, which could then serve as an example for elsewhere, that was unacceptable

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for them. And so they decided that rather than accept that, they would rather abandon their

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significant investments that they'd made over the previous couple of years in the province,

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completely abandon those investments, those warehouses, that infrastructure, and leave

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the province entirely and have their delivery network in the province be run by a network

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of subcontractors. Do you think they would have gotten away with that response in the US had

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a contract bin looming over them, just shutting the factories? Yeah, so mean, in the US, they

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wouldn't really... the context is different, right? In the US, because workers have significantly

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less rights in the US than they do in Quebec and... elsewhere in Canada, but in Quebec in

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particular, has a more worker-friendly labor code, even though there's still a lot of work

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to be done. They wouldn't be in a position where they would be forced, really anywhere

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else, to sign that collective agreement. So they could do what they're doing in New York

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right now, which is just perpetually stalling. Negotiating, one could make the argument

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in bad faith. with the union in a way that is quite clear that their goal is to just wear

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people's energy down over time and never actually come to a collective agreement. The difference

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is that in Quebec, they can't do that. I I wrote that it's likely illegal, closures, right?

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mean, there hasn't been a court decision or anything that has declared it to be illegal

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as of yet. But we saw similar things happen when workers at Walmart and Jean-Claire in

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Quebec formed a union. In, I believe, the early 2000s, Walmart decided to close that store.

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Those workers were compensated, I should say, by the Labor Board because Walmart was found

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to have been doing illegal union busting. I think eventually that's probably going to be

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something similar to what happens here, but we'll see as those move through the courts.

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Do you know of any court cases that are pending over the Quebec Amazon closures? The union

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that workers formed at the Amazon warehouse in Laval, they did so under the banner of

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the CSN union, Confedération des sciences nationales in Quebec, which is one of the big labour federations.

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So the CSN has launched some cases at the Labour Board to try to have this declared

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as illegal union busting. You mentioned They left behind a significant investment at Amazon,

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but municipalities and provinces also invest in them. Your article mentions just kind of

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trying to point out the ways where they're actually a detriment to workers and the economy. Not

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that they should be allowed to just shut up shop and leave, but Quebec gave them basically

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a little tax haven for a few years to say thank you for these investments. Can you give any

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other examples of how Amazon with its model that it uses is actually a detriment to the

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working class. Part of how Amazon set up its infrastructure in Quebec is because the government

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of Quebec in an attempt to sort of woo the company to come and set up these warehouses. They

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have some, they have a program where if you make a certain amount of investment in the

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province, then you get a long tax holiday. And so Amazon, was granted a 15 year tax holiday

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in Quebec because of the scale of its investments in the province. The province has also given

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it things like Amazon has a data center in the town of Varennes, which is a little bit outside

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of Montreal, and they pay significantly reduced electricity rates. The government has all

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kinds, both provincial and federal, all kinds of contracts with Amazon Web Services to run

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internet infrastructure. So these are sort of like, you know both direct and indirect

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subsidies to the company in order to sort of attract their investment into the province

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so that you know, we could all be so lucky to work the sort of backbreaking labor in in

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Amazon warehouses where you know, I'm sure we've all heard the stories but there's a lot of

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horror stories particularly in the US of you know workers being forced to pee in bottles

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and in the hallways of the the warehouses that they work in are dying of heart attacks on

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the floor because the pace of work is so high. This isn't the model that Amazon uses or maximum

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exploitation. from the government's perspective, these are organizations that create jobs. And

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so we should be trying to do our best to attract them. Yeah. I mean, it's no wonder that workers

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try so hard to salt and unionize some of these facilities. What a blow I imagine it felt for

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organized labor to kind of have that moment pending in a contract at an Amazon facility,

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especially after watching what comrades were having to go through in New York. know Chris

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Smalls, you know, comes and tours Canada a lot, a friend of labor up here. And so it's definitely

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something a lot of us were watching, cheering on. Like anytime we can expand union membership,

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we understand the value in that. So. What was the response from the broader Canadian labor

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movement when they felt that blow? Yeah, so at least in Quebec, I think that the response

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from the English Canadian labor movement has been a little more muted. It's a sort of classic

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division between the Quebec and Canadian labor movements that has been the case for decades.

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But at least in Quebec, I this has been a pretty big moment, right? know, unions are mobilizing

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in lot of different ways to try to put pressure on Amazon, put pressure on the government

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to sort of ties with Amazon. I know as a result of these public pressure campaigns, know, the

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city of Montreal, example, municipal workers at the city of Montreal are now no longer

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allowed to purchase things for work using Amazon, right? Various sort of branches of government

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are attempting to... take measures that are sort reducing their organization's ties with

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Amazon. Dozens of labor unions, probably more. There's a list on the website for the Boycott

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Amazon campaign, as well as lots of community organizations, student associations, various

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organizations in the province have signed on to a organized boycott campaign for Amazon,

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which has... really taken off in the province. mean, think that there's actually a pretty

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wide, wide swath of general public in Quebec that has canceled their Amazon account. And

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the boycott campaign is actually, you know, an organized collective campaign where there

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are people standing outside of metro stations in Montreal every day handing out flyers, explaining

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to people why and how to boycott Amazon. If you walk around the city in Montreal, there

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are posters everywhere explaining people how and why they should boycott Amazon. So it's

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something that's really taken off and that's the result of people from the labor movement,

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a lot of people who previously had been Amazon workers in these warehouses that are now closed,

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as well as allies from other organizations, labor unions, groups like the Immigrant Workers

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Center that have been really active in trying to... pressure Amazon, but also pressure municipal,

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provincial governments to cut ties. I imagine that becomes easier to do now in this elbows

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up mentality where Amazon is seen as a US based company and Bezos is upstanding there with

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Trump at his inauguration. So like Quebec has already sold, I imagine this becomes an easier

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sell across Canada as It can represent more than just fighting back against union busting,

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right? But a response to Trump's economic aggressions, whatever words we're using to describe his

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behavior. But your piece that you wrote there is full of other ways that we could push back

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against Amazon and, I mean, could be applied more broadly as well. I just want to note,

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that's interesting that Quebec you're having municipalities pass specifically Amazon boycott

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sort of, know, like telling their employees not to use Amazon. And I imagine all of the

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municipalities that are passing by Canada motions will inherently be boycotting Amazon as well.

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So it would be interesting to see how this, I mean, if we could only fast forward a year

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to see what all of this back and forth is going to end up. It's all just real speculation at

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this point, but Let's talk about the other ways, the other pressures that maybe we could

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put on different levels of government to respond to this adequately. You talk about maybe not

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canceling contracts, because that's, mean, he canceled NAFTA. I didn't realize we had so

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much money tied up in Amazon contracts. Yeah, that's right. So the governments in Canada,

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the provincial and especially at the federal level have... hundreds of millions of dollars

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tied up in contracts with Amazon Web Services in particular, that runs a lot of the cloud

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infrastructure for government websites across the spectrum. So that is a problem, obviously,

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particularly in the context of what appears to be a looming, already begun, unclear trade

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war with the United States, that these are American-owned companies that are very close to the Trump

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regime in the United States that have, you know, could be used as tools in that trade

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war. The governments that have these contracts with Amazon Web Services in order to provide

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cloud services for government digital infrastructure need to be thinking seriously about the ways

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that they can get out of that dependence on Amazon, in particular, US companies in general.

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Now, Quebec is a bit of an interesting example because Quebec as a sort of like continental

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hydroelectric superpower, right, actually has more data center infrastructure set up than

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the rest of Canada by a pretty significant margin. And you can see that in their government contracts.

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While they do rely far too heavily on Amazon Web Services, it's proportionately quite

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a bit less than the federal government and other provinces because they've sort of made a bit

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of an industrial strategy in order to attract domestically run and data centers in the province.

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So Quebec could, is in a better position than the rest of Canada to ramp that up on a shorter

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term basis in order to be able to replace Amazon Web Services as a sort of data, as

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the organization that runs the digital infrastructure in Canada or hosts the digital infrastructure

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in Canada, I should say. But otherwise, I if we want to go after Amazon directly as opposed

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to Amazon, the sort of logistics network, retailer, whatever, this company is continuing to operate

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in the Quebec market, even though it's closed its actual warehouses. And the way that it's

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doing so is through subcontractors. And so these are, you know, people who are on the

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gig economy model, who own their own vehicles and pay for their own repairs of their own

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vehicles. don't have any sort of like a formal employment relationship with Amazon. Now, this

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is a model that basically means that, basically allows for companies to shirk their responsibilities

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to pay for things like health benefits, have job stability, these basic things. And it's

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a problem to begin with, but now this situation with Amazon provides us with a bit of an opening

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to go after that model more generally. If we want to punish Amazon for its illegal union

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busting in the province, then we should go after the model that it's using to replace what would

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have been the unionized workforce. And doing so would actually be a win for all workers

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in the province because it would tackle some of these very exploitative gig economy practices.

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So that would be really a big win for a of workers in this province. I would suggest they

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should name the bill when they do this after Bezos so that all the other capitalists can

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give him credit for eating away at that precarious labor force that they have been not just relying

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on, but building. That is a trend that we need to buck regardless of our anger with Amazon.

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So many different industries are operating on using contractors instead of employees and

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finding different ways to you know, not be beholden to the weak labor laws we do have.

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I mean, I think that like if we're talking about like, you know, how do we how do we address

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these things? We want to address these things in ways that actually help advance broader

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social goals. Right. And so, you know, if we want to if we want to go after Amazon and punish

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them for the crimes that they've committed here, then then we should do so in a way that is

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also going to prevent other companies from doing the same thing. that is choking out their

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sort subcontracting model, moving the sort of gig economy as a whole towards better working

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conditions for workers, more job stability, wages and benefits. I mean, these are things

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that both go after Amazon and also prevent any future Amazons from doing the same thing.

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Your suggestion isn't to necessarily switch to a different service. I don't know if we

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don't have the equivalent of an Amazon Canada. But you do have an idea of what we can do with

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the warehouses that are left empty. And this would arguably be a way, in addition to legislation,

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to push back against the gig economy, at least when it comes to, what do you call that,

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delivery services? Yeah, like delivery and logistics. Yeah, so I mean, this is, I think, the last

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thing, right? Is this question of like, well, Amazon has made all of these warehouses in

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the past couple of years, which they're now abandoning. And so this is infrastructure that

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exists in the province, right? I mean, just because Amazon is withdrawing its presence

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as a company from the province, the physical buildings, these warehouses still stand, right?

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So what do we do with them now? And so I think that one of the things that we should look

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into doing is integrating these warehouses and this physical infrastructure into the network.

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of Canada Post. Now, Canada Post obviously is a publicly run logistics network that is

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much, much more deeply integrated across the country than Amazon is. It's the only logistics

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network in the country that's able to sort of penetrate every sort of every address in the

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country is reached by Canada Post by legislation, staffed with union labor, good, well paying

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stable jobs that are that are, you good for the workers that pay there and run by one

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of Canada's most important storied unions. We have a sort of plug and play network ready

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that we could give this infrastructure over to and then use these new warehouses as ways

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to hire back all of these workers that Amazon has laid off into good stable union jobs

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in a logistics network that is publicly run that benefits the public that has a public

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mission. And so I think that, you know, if we're, if we're dreaming about the ways that we could,

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the, we could go after Amazon, uh, and, and the ways that we could respond to this, I mean,

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this is something that we should put on the table. I like a lot about what I'm hearing,

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but there's a few things that kind of stand out because in our reaction to Trump, it has

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been very much nationalistic. And a lot of the suggested avenues would actually hurt workers

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in the United States, right? It's this tariff war back and forth and there's been some responses

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that are really just, you know, worry about our own. But these proposals only strengthen

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the working class in general, right? And set employment trends as opposed to just attacking

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different sets of workers. But I don't like when you use dreaming, Even the face you made

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while you say it, it's like you don't want people to think of it as some dreamy, lofty, utopian

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idea. These are like, you're talking about very tangible solutions. Your words, you know, all

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within legal framework. And I'm not arguing that point, it is. So plausible, reasonable.

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Okay, I mean, you're talking to another socialist, so I'm not giving you grief on any of these

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ideas, but Why aren't they being picked up in general? If someone at the CCPA can sit there

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and look at this and be like, here's a laundry list of things you could do instead of nothing.

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What is the reality of the situation that we're in that we don't see these kinds of responses?

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We are swimming in the sea of neoliberalism. We're swimming in the neoliberalism market.

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Logics are the sea that we swim in that is so ubiquitous around us. see it anymore. And

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as a result, ideas like this, are actually even within the legal frameworks that we currently

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have, right, we don't need a socialist revolution in order to do these things, right. But because

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if not the general public, at least like the political class in this country is so wrapped

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up in the in market logics and attempting to sort of incentivize the market to do social

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goals and all of these things. and has been for decades now. Ideas like these that are

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concretely possible right now seem like utopian fairy tales. But I think the task of people

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who are doing the type of work that you and I do, right, of imagining what a better world

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can look like is to sort of break out of that sort of glass box that we've put ourselves

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in and say, actually, there's a whole other world out there of possibilities of things

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that we could be doing. And here's what they look like. I think this is kind of like a

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off topic question, but you think Amazon regrets closing those warehouses now that they're looking

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at all these Chinese tariffs importing to the US? Or do you think it's just like this, no

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matter what we do, we will not let like a union contract through in one of our warehouses.

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Like they will just go down in flames on this. This is the hill maybe Bezos will die on.

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I think that this is probably the hill that Basics will die on. think that Amazon has

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really staked itself out as a company that will absolutely burn every bridge before

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allowing its workers to collectively organize and allow its workers to just like negotiate

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basic things in their own workplaces that they give, you know, a third of their lives

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to. And so they're going to go down swinging in that regard. And we need to act in consequence

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with that. We need to also go out swinging with them. And I think that that is part of the

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campaign that's been happening in Quebec since the Amazon closure has happened is a response

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to that. I think is the closest to a type of proportionality that we've seen with regards

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to Amazon is a campaign that Now that these closures have happened, is seeking to have,

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at a society-wide level, have us cut ties with Amazon. At government level, at sort of individual

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consumer level, at all of these things, to sort of treat them as this sort of malignant

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force that they are and remove them. That is probably the model that we're going to need

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to go with if Amazon doesn't change its approach to the way that it deals with its workers.

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Oh, I'm absolutely here for painting all capitalists as a malignant force. So that's why going

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at it from the angle that you're going at it, you know, in response to the union busting

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and their treatment of workers and the fact that they've just got a really harmful model

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for local economies and beyond, rather than the anti-US. framework, right, because then

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that puts us in a different mentality, then we pick targets based on where their headquarters

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are and not necessarily how they're treating workers. So I imagine you're full of ideas

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in terms of legislation, like how we could protect gig workers or, and beyond that, but what

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about for people on the street, even non-unionized workers? Although I hear a lot of hate about

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Amazon we have for a long time, Like Bezos is like an easy target for whatever reason. Like

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Galen Weston, I don't know. We remember their name and they're, they look like villains.

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I think that helps. But I've not seen the kind of replication that you're talking about in

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Quebec outside of Quebec. You only touched on that divide, but I'll be honest. I think I

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was kind of naive to the fact that there'd be that kind of divide within the labor movement.

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It was so egregious what they did in Quebec. I expected a nationwide response. So you got

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any advice for grassroots organizers beyond that are looking to kind of use this moment

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as a way to point people in the right direction? Because, you know, those notable characters

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that stand behind Trump, um, figuratively and actually, you know, at his inauguration or

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whatnot, it's, it's nice for people to understand that those are the players behind all of these

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policies and should feel our angst, right? Rather than just letting Trump take the blame, right?

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Because then when he's gone, will they still remain as class conscious as they were, right?

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So any idea for seizing this moment and building class consciousness versus a nationalistic

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response? Yeah, I mean, you know, I wish I had an easy plug and play answer for this. John,

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we need one. I know, you know. Listen, the great labour organiser, Jane McAlevey, said that

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there are no shortcuts and she was right. There aren't, right? The book's on my shelf over

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there. That's right. I mean, the way that we build the capacity to respond to these things

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and transform the world that we live in is by forming, joining, and transforming organizations

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that can act collectively in the interests of the working class. And that means that if

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you are a union worker participating in your labor union, if you are a non-union worker

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talking to your colleagues about organizing collectively, if you are live in a community

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where there are active community organizations, taking maybe time once a month and going and

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joining a meeting, right? That means getting to know your neighbors and being able to take

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action collectively at first at a small scale and then at a larger scale. And we need to

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build collective self-financed democratic organizations that are capable of acting in the interest

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of the class. Those organizations everywhere in the country, but particularly in English

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Canada, hollowed out over the past couple of decades in Quebec, they still remain a little

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bit stronger than in the rest of the country. And I think that that's part of the reason

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why you see the divide that you see. But we need to rebuild and rebuild those organizations.

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And there's not a solution that we can do over the course of the week that will do that.

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That's a long term project of building political power and building organizations that are

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capable of wielding it. I wish I had an easier answer for you, but I don't. No one does, John.

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I've had, we're at episode 179, think, when the time this airs. And not that I've asked

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everyone that big question. I was kind of picking on you there, but nobody's had, they all remind

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me, almost everyone reminds me that it is a long fight. I'm a very impatient person by

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nature. So, but you know, that's not to say there's not things that people can do in that

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week. that won't work towards those ends. I'm wondering, I think when we covered this story,

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I should have brushed up my notes a little bit, but I think when we were covering this story

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back in January, early February, I pulled up something about workers in Alberta, perhaps

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trying to unionize an Amazon facility. Are there other facilities across Canada that we should

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be watching in terms of unionizing an Amazon? Yeah, I mean, it's tough to say because these

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campaigns take place, you know, their very nature take place discreetly until they're

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right. Because, you know, obviously with a company that is so bent on destroying any active

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efforts at collective organization, you know, things need to take place somewhat clandestinely

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until until they're ready to go public. However, you know, there's a lot of Signs pointing to

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the possibility of union drives happening elsewhere in British Columbia, which it's worth pointing

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out is one of the only other provinces that has card check certification in Canada, which

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means that if 50 % plus one of workers signed union cards, then a union, they have their

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union. They don't need to afterwards go into a referendum period. in which the company,

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a company like Amazon, can engage in all types of illegal union busting during a public referendum

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period. So if 50 % of workers plus one sign union cards, the union is formed, period. And

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so I would be watching out for campaigns in British Columbia in that regard. I will keep

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my ear to the ground. But yes, I think most people can appreciate, and hopefully they've

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heard, but maybe you can share a little bit before we go. because we didn't hit on just

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how dirty Amazon can play when folks are trying to unionize a facility. I mean, we know what

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happens when they lose. They're really sore losers. But they play really dirty too in

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terms of trying to like spend millions of dollars on surveilling their employees, right? And

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union busting tactics, particularly in that referendum stage when it's most effective.

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following New York, mean it's incredible the things that they'll go through. Yeah, mean

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Amazon uses the entire gamut of union busting techniques and is even sort of an innovator

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in them. They're a think tank of union busting, they probably have a whole department. They

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almost definitely do. And so you know, they do everything from firing people or laying

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people off who are publicly associated with the union, running very obvious surveillance,

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hiring private security companies, posting gigantic banners that are against the union

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inside workplaces, and doing things that are... Even the US Labor Board has declared to

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be illegal, which is not exactly a particularly worker-friendly organization. But Amazon has

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sort of decided that they would rather just pay a fine afterwards for doing these sort

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of illegal union-busting things rather than accepting that they're playing fair during

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a referendum. Those reactions from those tasked with enforcing labor laws don't even slow them

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down. I imagine the fines are just pocket change to that company. Any idea what their hit to

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the bottom line has been in Quebec? Whether that's been effective enough to make them kind

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of take notice and question their tactics? I don't have those numbers. I'd be curious

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to be a fly on the wall in the meetings where they're looking back and seeing the blowback

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or they just, mean, if they're any good at what they do, they don't even pay attention. Like

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they just keep going forward. I mean, that would be my advice to other people, right? Like don't

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let, don't slow down for your detractors, but it. I think it just leads credence to the suggestions

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of, you know, building unions from the bottom up and as the only real solution to these folks

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pleading with our governments to enact fines or, or other kind of tiny bits of legislation

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seems like an uphill battle at times. But, uh, you know, all, all the more reason for stronger

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labor. Yes. Oh yeah, absolutely. And I mean, here's the thing. I think that like, you know,

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both stronger labor and, a wrong government that is willing to take legislative action

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against these companies are both essential components of taking on companies like Amazon. The issue

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is that in order to get to the stage where we have a government that is willing and able

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to do this type of thing, that is just because of the neoliberal economy that we live in and

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the sort of decades of neoliberal hegemony, we're not going to get there. without a strong

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labor movement, right? It is a precursor to having a government that is capable of acting

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in the interest of the working class is having a working class that is capable of acting

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in its own interest. We'll get there. Yeah. Let's hope. Well, we have to do more than

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hope, John, but we are, right? People are actively on the case. I appreciate the work that you

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do that contributes to that. Sometimes. you we're all labeled as utopic and the solutions

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that we suggest or the political ways that we want to go are just like not even feasible.

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But quite often when you crunch the numbers or you get people working on this, you can

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present very feasible solutions to what seem like insurmountable problems. So I, know, I

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did tease you about being a policy wonk, but you clarified that, but there is value in

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like talking about policy in different ways forward and doing that kind of work. Thank

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you so much, John, for coming on and explaining this to the audience. I did not give the case

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justice when I kind of gave an overview back in late January. I was angry, but I had no

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solutions. And you really did kind of provide some solutions to folks, which is far more

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constructive than just ranting about it. Yeah, pleasure to be here. And I mean, as always,

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The most immediate solution for any of your listeners is to go out and form or join an

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organization in the place where you live and work. Absolutely. Thank you. That is a wrap

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on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. If you'd like to

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