00:04

Thank you for joining us for

00:05

The Future of Higher Education Today,

00:07

the podcast bringing together people

00:09

to discuss the biggest issues

00:10

facing universities and higher education.

00:13

This is a series

00:13

produced by Universities UK and Advance HE.

00:17

I’m Aaron Porter, Associate Director

(Governance) at Advance HE

00:20

and I'm your host across this four-episode series

00:23

focusing on governing and leading

00:26

change and transformation in the higher education sector.

00:29

Our third episode looks at the importance of partnerships

00:32

in helping institutions

00:34

define and reach their strategic goals and create

00:37

meaningful impact on their campuses

00:39

and with their communities.

00:41

Today's guests will be talking

00:42

about how their institutions engage

00:44

with different stakeholders to address local challenges

00:48

and add value to students’ learning experiences.

00:51

Joining us for today's episode,

00:53

we have Sophie Cloutterbuck,

00:54

Director of London Engagement

00:56

at London Metropolitan University.

00:58

Try to co-produce all your work with your partners as well.

01:01

Rather than coming in as the people that know better,

01:04

actually the people in the community know a lot.

01:06

Let's co-produce with them. Let's hear their voices.

01:09

Gillian Docherty, Chief Commercial Officer

01:11

at Strathclyde University.

01:13

You must look at this as a whole systems approach.

01:16

So having buoyant businesses or

01:19

social enterprises or charities or public sector

01:23

in the area that you're operating

01:25

will offer job opportunities for our graduates, will offer

01:29

investment opportunities for our spin-outs.

01:33

And Doctor Nia Jones, Dean of Medicine at the North

01:37

Wales Medical School at Bangor University.

01:40

When I graduated over 20 years ago, the NHS that

01:43

I started working in, it's very different

01:45

to the one that they're facing now.

01:47

So it's only right

01:48

that we're training them differently, collaboratively.

01:51

We want to be creative

01:52

and we want a leadership and an organisation,

01:55

I think, culture that values that.

01:57

I'm going to kick-off

01:58

with a very general question for the three of you in-turn.

02:02

I wonder if you could just say

02:03

a little bit

02:04

about the initiative that you're working on.

02:07

What its priorities are and how you've gone

02:10

about delivering on what you are looking to achieve.

02:14

And perhaps I'll start with Sophie first.

02:16

Thanks very much, Aaron.

02:18

So today I’m talking about

02:19

our civic and community strategy at the university

02:23

and the London Met Lab,

02:24

which is what we use to drive that strategy.

02:27

So we work on six challenges that London faces:

02:31

health improvement, crime,

02:33

discrimination, poverty

02:34

and deprivation, the environment and social wealth.

02:37

And we work with local partners

02:39

in the community to address those challenges,

02:41

whether it be through research, student placements,

02:45

events, activities, the list goes on and on.

02:49

Gillian,

02:50

what's the sort of focus of the partnership working that

02:54

goes on at Strathclyde?

02:55

Strathclyde, since its inception, has been

02:58

a place of useful learning

02:59

and for many, many decades

03:00

we've worked extensively with industrial partners

03:03

on innovation projects, research and development,

03:06

and clearly taking some of the fantastic things we do here

03:09

at the university, out to the world to create impact.

03:12

And the innovation districts of which we are

03:15

the lead anchor academic partner in,

03:17

which there are two,

03:18

the Glasgow City Innovation District

03:21

and the Advanced Manufacturing Innovation District,

03:23

are partnerships between the University,

03:26

Scottish Enterprise,

03:28

which is our enterprise agency here in central Scotland,

03:31

and the city and regional councils.

03:34

And together with other partners,

03:36

industrial partners and others,

03:37

really looking at how we drive economic

03:40

and social opportunity

03:41

within those innovation districts and beyond.

03:44

How we bring capability and expertise from the university

03:48

out in a porous way into those innovation districts.

03:52

And how we attract inward investment and company

03:55

and other investments

03:57

into those innovation districts to drive high value jobs

04:00

and social inclusion and social impact projects.

04:04

Fantastic. Again, really, really interesting.

04:06

And a third introduction from Nia

04:09

and the project that you've–or initiative–that

04:11

you've been working on.

04:12

Thank you.

04:13

Well, in 2021,

04:15

Welsh Government pledged that there would be

04:16

a third medical school in Wales.

04:19

And the job to be done for us was to increase the number

04:22

of local medical graduates,

04:24

widen access into a career in medicine,

04:27

and to improve care for Welsh speakers and more Welsh

04:30

speaking doctors here in Wales.

04:32

And so we

04:33

welcomed our first students in August of this year.

04:37

And so we've got two points of entry.

04:39

So in year one and year two,

04:41

which has been a great opportunity.

04:44

And as you all know, we're setting up a medical school,

04:46

you know, with a huge collaboration.

04:48

So with other university partners,

04:50

with Cardif University, we're working collaboratively with them.

04:53

They’re are contingency partners

04:55

and we've historically had their students

04:58

with us from 2019.

04:59

And we've still got them with us here

05:01

which is great

05:02

because that sense of community for our students as well,

05:04

that they're able to learn from students

05:06

in other years–in years three, four and five.

05:09

So that's very much collaborative there

05:11

within the institutions.

05:12

But we're working with Welsh Government,

05:14

we're working with our local health board

05:15

partners, with Betsi Cadwaladr

05:17

University Health Board,

05:18

and with all the primary care teams,

05:21

which has been

05:22

hugely exciting and great to welcome them here.

05:26

But one of the most sort of hugely diverse

05:28

and rich feedback that we've had

05:30

is our patient and public involvement,

05:33

which we have engaged enormously with to be able to inform

05:37

not just our curriculum, our education,

05:39

but also our research.

05:41

And so very much that social accountability of our school,

05:44

you know, that we’re very much

05:45

a school for the whole of North Wales,

05:47

even though we're based in Bangor.

05:48

Our students are across North Wales.

05:51

It's a hugely diverse, geographical area and demographic

05:54

as a result of that.

05:55

And so the engagement with our community–because

05:58

the outcome is hopefully to be able

06:00

to best serve them and their health need outcomes.

06:03

Well these are three fantastic approaches.

06:06

And they're more than initiatives.

06:08

But, I'll use that word simply

06:10

to try and capture them with.

06:11

I wondered if you might each say

06:14

a little about the impact that each of these

06:17

approaches have had so far

06:21

and how you go about trying to report on the impact

06:25

and the difference that you each make.

06:28

So the Glasgow City Innovation District

06:30

was Scotland's first innovation district in 2019

06:33

and anchored, as I said, in that partnership between Strathclyde,

06:37

Glasgow City Council and Scottish Enterprise.

06:39

Jointly investing in some of the core assets

06:43

and resources that we needed to bring

06:45

that innovation district to life.

06:47

It's leveraged over £900 million

06:49

now of investment and expanding

06:51

Glasgow's innovation economy, including property

06:54

investments, equity and debt

06:55

funding into companies both start-ups, scale-ups

06:59

and fantastic are are our spinouts from the university.

07:03

And it's attracted

07:05

several tens of millions of foreign direct investment.

07:09

There are now 1600 businesses in the district.

07:12

There are also many other things

07:13

that we track in terms of job growth, value of those jobs

07:18

and the inclusion

07:19

available now in those jobs across a variety of sector.

07:22

And really it’s at the heart of energising Scotland's

07:25

manufacturing base,

07:26

bringing new technologies and capabilities.

07:29

We're seeing financial impact.

07:31

We're seeing

07:32

growth and productivity and growth and new investments

07:37

both from local or indigenous companies

07:40

and also foreign direct investment.

07:42

And hopefully the creation

07:43

of real centres of excellence and clusters of fantastic

07:47

research and innovation

07:49

that's going right through to impact

07:50

into products and services.

07:52

And that's fantastic to hear.

07:54

As you say, you know, there are some numerical, tangible,

07:57

measureable outputs in terms of kind of growth and probably,

08:01

you know, jobs and so on.

08:03

Sophie from London Mets' approach.

08:05

How have you sought to capture the–

08:08

sort of–the impact of the strategy that you've developed

08:10

and how you're going about trying to measure and capture

08:13

some of that impact?

08:15

Yeah, so I think to begin with

08:16

we need to understand that the labs isn't one thing.

08:19

It's not just

08:19

a lab, it’s conglomerate of different things.

08:22

So the lab is what we have Challenge Champions,

08:25

which are academics for specialists

08:27

that work in the community,

08:28

specifically on those challenges.

08:30

All of our pro bono and low-cost clinics

08:34

from the university are run directly through the lab.

08:37

We also have a Centre

08:38

for Applied Research in Empowering Society.

08:41

And we also have a module

08:43

that is run through the lab as well.

08:46

So there's lots–it's very hard

08:47

to have one way of reporting

08:48

because there's so many things to do.

08:50

So we have KPIs for each of those areas.

08:53

And then for an overall area, we report on policy change

08:57

that we've actually made in the local community.

08:59

Actual policy

09:00

we can see that residents are changing

09:02

the way they're being dealt with

09:03

by councils or charities or NHS,

09:06

whatever it might be.

09:07

We also look at internal measures as well,

09:09

because it's great

09:11

doing this work for the community

09:12

and it's something really, really important

09:14

to do this for the community.

09:15

But in the current climate,

09:17

why are universities doing this?

09:18

Well, it brings value to the universities.

09:20

And I think it's really important

09:22

to show the impact of the value

09:24

as well as the amazing impact outside of the uni,

09:27

what it's bringing back.

09:28

So we've had hundreds and hundreds of students

09:30

engaged in lots of projects related to this work.

09:33

I say hundreds, actually it’s over thousands.

09:35

It's a couple of thousand are involved.

09:37

We have over 200 staff

09:40

academically who are involved

09:42

who are learning new ways of co-production, new ways

09:45

of working that they then bring into their research

09:48

and bring into their classroom.

09:50

And we get to extensive engagement with

09:56

the local community.

09:57

We saw over 8000 guests last year

10:00

and they're not one-offs.

10:02

So they're people that the university

10:04

starts to get to know, that turns into more projects.

10:06

As I say, we have different ways of looking at the impact.

10:09

Is it student impacts?

10:10

Is it financial impact to the university?

10:12

Or is it impact to the community?

10:13

I'm working on a wider

10:15

national project

10:16

on how we actually measure all of this

10:17

nationally as well at the moment.

10:19

Nia, obviously

10:21

what you're establishing through

10:23

the medical school,

10:24

you’ve got your first cohorts of students

10:26

coming in in this academic year.

10:29

So in that sense,

10:30

you're at the sort of an earlier stage of the journey.

10:31

But I wondered

10:32

if there were some nascent or emerging impacts

10:36

that you felt were being had by the creation

10:38

of this North Wales Medical School?

10:40

Yeah, just picking up on that conversation that, you know,

10:43

we value what we can measure, don't we?

10:46

Rather than measure what we value, you know.

10:49

And it is, it is getting that right.

10:51

So I suppose in terms of us,

10:52

we have been here with C21 north.

10:55

So we've had graduates.

10:56

And sort of half of those have stayed in Wales.

11:00

Because they've been small groups,

11:01

we've had this great relationship with them.

11:04

And I, I do I value that enormously

11:07

because part of what I want is that from undergraduate

11:11

to postgraduate, we continue, we're not siloed anymore.

11:16

And that's not just within medicine,

11:17

but interprofessionally as well,

11:19

that we create these collaborations.

11:21

And if we learn together, we'll work together

11:23

and provide better care.

11:25

So, they've really been helpful in sending back,

11:28

informing our curriculum, helping us to prepare

11:33

the new doctors

11:34

for the challenges that they will face tomorrow.

11:37

So, that's been hugely rewarding.

11:39

You're absolutely right.

11:40

It's a bit early to say what our impact will be.

11:44

Although there is great excitement here.

11:46

And I don't think that's an easy thing

11:49

to say at the moment.

11:50

You know, in terms of we’re a new school,

11:52

where we're asking our NHS colleagues to do more,

11:56

without a lot more being given

11:58

to them in terms of resource.

12:00

And yet they're enthusiastic to do that

12:02

because they see this as an opportunity for growth

12:05

and for change.

12:07

Much has been made of the kind of challenging

12:10

financial circumstances

12:11

facing a lot of higher education institutions.

12:14

And there's a sort of

12:15

a regular conundrum of trying to do,

12:17

you know, more with the same.

12:19

Or be more impactful with a similar resource envelope

12:23

as we've had previously.

12:24

And I wondered with your respective sort of approaches,

12:28

whether there's been thoughts

12:29

about what you might do to try and sort of deepen

12:31

the impact or widen the net,

12:33

or think in a more efficient way

12:36

about how you're going to continue

12:37

to develop your initiative.

12:40

You'll be aware we're not the only new medical programme.

12:44

So there's lots of other

12:47

medical schools sort of opening because of the need

12:51

for more doctors

12:52

and healthcare professionals across the sector.

12:55

You know, when I graduated over 20 years ago,

12:58

the NHS that I started working

13:00

in, it's very different

13:01

to the one that they're facing now.

13:02

So it's only right

13:04

that we're training them differently, collaboratively.

13:07

We want to be creative

13:08

and we want a leadership and an organisation,

13:10

I think, culture that values that and allows that growth.

13:14

We want them to be competent, they value teamwork.

13:17

And these are the ethos and the culture

13:19

that we should be training them with.

13:21

So as much as it's challenging,

13:23

we do have to look at our resourcing.

13:25

We have to look at what we have

13:27

and then we have to be able to make sure

13:29

that we're using that to the best possible.

13:30

And then I think as educators,

13:32

it goes back to first principles, you know,

13:35

what are we trying to teach them?

13:36

What's the most creative and best way to do it?

13:38

How do we value their time?

13:40

And let's bring our stakeholders along with us.

13:42

The most important one are our students themselves

13:44

and our patients.

13:45

So, as much as it is challenging times,

13:48

I think it's an opportunity for us to be creative now

13:50

and to think differently.

13:52

And for you, Sophie, actually I didn't ask.

13:55

Sort of, how long has the approach of the lab

13:59

and the strategy been in place?

14:01

And sort of where are you in that journey?

14:03

And what's the sort of future plans for sort of

widening the net

14:06

or deepening the impact that you're looking to pursue?

14:10

So we're in year five.

14:12

When we first originally started,

14:13

it was just the Challenge Champions.

14:15

We've added the clinics, the research centre

14:19

and the module in those years.

14:21

So we've moved pretty quickly, actually.

14:24

Especially in HE terms, to get that much done,

14:27

I think it's been really good.

14:29

But what we'd like to do–we don't actually

14:31

want to make more partners.

14:32

What we decided two years ago,

14:34

we had over 650 partners

14:36

and we couldn't work with them closely.

14:38

We could only give everyone a little bit of our time.

14:41

So we've now defined our areas.

14:43

We've actually decided to only work with six boroughs.

14:45

That then can help us with so many different things,

14:48

if we have that really close relationship,

14:50

we're getting a lot more value

14:51

out of our partnerships.

14:53

And the partnerships are getting a lot more value

14:55

out of being partners with us as well,

14:57

which I think a lot of unis forget that part is why

15:00

we have those partners and, you know,

15:01

so we're getting the joint value.

15:03

We made the decision at the very start of this project,

15:06

there isn't a team

15:07

because it should be business as usual for the university.

15:10

So rather than having a team that’s dedicated to

15:13

this work, this is put into academic workload allocations.

15:16

It's put into professional staff job descriptions, etc. etc.

15:20

So, it is actually just business as usual for the university.

15:25

We're just about to do the same with clinics.

15:27

So the schools will take the clinic’s hours,

15:30

because it's so advantageous to their students.

15:33

And I think that's the way

15:35

with the current environment–

15:36

we don't have–universities in general

15:38

don't have the space or the money

15:40

to be making big teams for this kind of work.

15:42

So if we can turn it into business as usual.

15:45

We all heard Bridget Phillipson’s speech and in it

15:49

she said we have to be doing the civic work.

15:51

Well, let's make a way it's advantageous to both us

15:55

and the community.

15:56

Yeah,

15:56

I think that's a really well-made point about,

15:58

you know,

15:59

how it's embedded across the rest of the university.

16:03

Ultimately, that's how it will make both a bigger impact

16:06

and also sort of, more sustainable institutional approach as well.

16:09

So I think that's worth bearing in mind as well.

16:12

And finally, same question to you, Gillian, in terms of,

16:15

you know, thinking about what the sort of the future

16:18

kind of breadth of what you do might be.

16:21

Whether there's plans for expansion or consolidation

16:24

or how the–what the future might look like.

16:26

There's certainly no plans for consolidation.

16:28

I think there's definitely an ambition to scale

16:31

and grow our impact.

16:33

And very much like Sophie,

16:34

we embed it across the organisation.

16:37

We’re very small, light touch teams that spearhead

16:40

the activity.

16:41

But actually, it's colleagues from right across the institution

16:45

who support the activity across the innovation districts.

16:48

I think one of the key things is

16:50

the partnerships are critically important.

16:53

They're actually–your partnerships

16:54

with your local authorities,

16:57

your enterprise actors, your industrial or social

17:00

or public sector partners are critical

17:04

because you are trying to make the best of a place.

17:09

We are very fortunate.

17:10

We’re a city centre university and we believe we've got

17:14

a big endowment in our place.

17:17

And we have a responsibility

17:20

to ensure that that place is as good as it can be.

17:23

And our role in that is to help develop opportunities.

17:27

So I think, yes, there's undoubtedly pressure

17:30

and therefore the priority, the organisation

17:33

and the strategic importance of activities

17:36

like the innovation district are critical.

17:40

And you must look–I think we certainly look

17:42

and I think–you must look at this

17:43

as a whole systems approach.

17:45

So having buoyant businesses or

17:48

social enterprises or charities or public sector

17:52

in the area that you're operating

17:55

will offer job opportunities for our graduates,

17:58

will offer investment opportunities for our spin-outs.

18:03

And will offer research and collaboration

18:06

projects and knowledge exchange projects

18:08

with our academics.

18:09

And that actually neatly leads me to my

18:12

the final question,

18:13

which is really if you have any advice or guidance

18:18

that you would give to

18:19

other universities or higher education institutions

18:22

thinking about establishing new successful partnerships.

18:26

I think the first thing is to realise that this engagement

18:29

is should be a core strategic priority.

18:32

It shouldn’t just be an after-thought of something

18:34

we have to do because someone said so.

18:37

So I think until the first

18:40

strategy is to get it in your strategy.

18:42

I think building the partnerships,

18:44

they need to be beneficial.

18:46

So it’s to build the strong partnerships

18:48

You really need to see value for all partners in the room.

18:50

But also value all partners in the room the same.

18:53

And I think that's a big thing

18:56

you need to do to get the strong partnership.

18:58

Try to co-produce

18:59

all your work with your partners as well.

19:01

Rather than coming in as the people that know better,

19:05

actually the people in the community know a lot.

19:07

Let's co-produce with them. Let's hear their voices.

19:09

And focus on generating tangible, real-world impact.

19:13

Making the community see how we can make a difference

19:18

to the community as well. I think that's really important.

19:21

so I think long-term, over

19:22

numerous years with the partners as well and not one-offs.

19:27

And actually, I think the

19:29

people working in these areas need to actively understand

19:31

the areas they're working in.

19:32

We're very much working in place.

19:35

We need people who understand that place.

19:37

It doesn't mean you have to be from that place,

19:39

but you need to understand.

19:41

Because as we all know,

19:42

every local place is very different.

19:44

Nia was saying this earlier.

19:45

I think the more innovative in a space we can be,

19:48

the more we actually get out of it.

19:50

And I think don't expect overnight successes.

19:55

So if I talk about

19:57

the–Gillian earlier was talking about local government.

20:00

Some of my local government, it's taken me four years

20:04

to get to a good place with them.

20:06

And it's really difficult.

20:07

Once you get there–but

20:09

don't give up–when you get there, it will,

20:12

the reward will be worth it.

20:13

Fantastic.

20:14

There's some really great advice there,

20:16

both from the sort of strategic level

20:17

in terms of the initial thinking that's required,

20:19

but also some more practical things.

20:22

How about for you, Gillian,

20:23

any sort of principles or advice

20:25

that you would want to share

20:25

from experience at Strathclyde?

20:27

Of course.

20:27

I think Sophie's done a great job there

20:29

and I certainly would start with strategy as well.

20:31

Our innovation districts are mentioned

20:33

in Strathclyde 2030.

20:35

They're a key part of what we do.

20:37

I think the other thing is that long-term investment.

20:40

So, we've been working in this area

20:44

for more than a decade.

20:45

Our principal has been co-chair of the Glasgow

Economic Leadership Board

20:48

with the leader of the council for more than 12 years.

20:51

They are not overnight success.

20:53

And that persistence and resilience–and that only comes

20:57

when you go into those partnerships, opportunities

21:00

with a view of how can we help?

21:02

Not what can we get, how can we help?

21:05

And I think if that mantra will help you persevere

21:09

over the well–is that income for the university?

21:14

It's back to Nia’s point. We do what we measure.

21:18

Those are the thing that will be

21:20

lasting in terms of that persistence.

21:23

And I think demonstrating value

21:26

at every point of engagement with those partners

21:30

and in a way that is authentically

21:33

you as an institution is really important.

21:36

That's great.

21:37

And again, some nice synergy there.

21:39

But also, you know, that points around distinctiveness

21:41

and it being authentic to your circumstance

21:45

is very helpful as well.

21:46

And finally, same question for you, Nia.

21:49

Any advice you'd want to share?

21:51

Well, I think I think both Gillian

21:53

and Sophie have done a great job there.

21:54

And I would absolutely agree

21:56

and I think we're all in it for the long game aren’t we?

21:59

And, and I think it is, it's having that shared value,

22:03

that core team that you start with

22:06

to be able to share that value

22:08

with your stakeholders.

22:08

And I absolutely agree that it’s

22:10

it has to be intentional for all and meaningful for all

22:13

so that we get that value.

22:15

We're going to get the naysayers.

22:18

And that's not a bad thing,

22:19

because it makes us reflect on what we're doing again

22:22

and think, okay, is there something in that?

22:24

Is this something I need to change?

22:25

But I do think you need your easy wins and your coalitions

22:28

that keep you going.

22:30

And I think building

22:31

those relationships are really integral.

22:34

And I think not to be scared

22:36

that those relationships change.

22:38

And I think because all of us are in this,

22:40

because we want to make meaningful change,

22:43

we've got to celebrate the wins

22:45

that we get along the way.

22:46

And share that with everybody.

22:49

Thanks very much for sharing those thoughts

22:52

so openly and so interestingly.

22:55

And I hope our listeners, too,

22:57

will have found that both practically useful

22:59

but also stimulating.

23:00

This question of collaboration is going to remain

23:03

a really important dimension of higher education

23:06

as we continue to navigate the next few years.

23:09

So, my thanks to, Sophie, to Gillian and to Nia.

23:13

Thanks to you for listening to today’s episode

23:17

of The Future of Higher Education Today.

23:19

On the next episode,

23:20

we'll be discussing the challenges and opportunities

23:23

arising out of a coordinated tertiary system.

23:26

But until then, thanks very much and goodbye.