got nothing to lose here, really, I'm at rock bottom, I'd already convinced myself that I weren't going to be here anymore.

Sometimes the shame that can come hand in hand with mental health issues can prevent us from getting the help that we so desperately need. George had long been suffering from anxiety and depression, when someone he least expected, offered him a refreshing perspective.

So I was sat in the living room back at home had been struggling for a really long time. I was at the point where I was really, really suicidal. Then I heard carpet up outside, and then I heard the front door going. So I knew my parents had come back from their evening out along came into the living room, she almost couldn't Look me straight in the eye. She just said to me, I'm sorry for somebody to tell you. I know you didn't want me to talk to anyone about what's been going on for you. But we were out for dinner. And the wife asked me how how the boys get on, mom said she just broke down. And of course, they asked, you know what's wrong? What's going on? And she said, she just had to be honest that I had been struggling for a long time. And they were they're worried they were really, really worried. I could feel myself getting angry. I could feel myself getting hot and stressed. Because I had sworn them to secrecy. I think I said why did why did you do that? I told you I didn't want to tell anyone. I could see she felt bad. But I could see she you know, something she really, really wanted to talk through. And she said the husband, he said to my Mum, look, I get it. I think I might be able to help George. Let me have a chat with him. At this point I was to kind of consumed with almost like anger. And I was reeling from the fact that my secret gone out. And I think I just felt a whole cauldron of emotions, guilt and shame and anxiety and all this this sort of stuff. And I basically just stormed out, stomp my way upstairs, slammed my door, got into bed, and this sort of dawned on me. I've got nothing to lose here, really. I'm at rock bottom. I'd already convinced myself that I wasn't going to be here anymore. Woke up in the morning, went to my mom and said, You know what, let's have the conversation. I'll meet with him. So we decided to meet at a pub just five minutes down the road from me, my heart pounding. My hands are really clammy. Like I said, Don't anyone outside of my circle to know what was going on. So I was nervous about having this conversation, open the door and I walked through the pub and he was sat on a long bench table in the corner, a couple of Pints of Lager weighed in there looked up when he saw me and smiled and stood up gave me this massive, massive bear hug. He sort of swallowed you up when he hugged you a little bit of me just relaxed. And he said to me, Look, you don't have to tell me what's going on with you. But I'm, I'm going to tell you what I've been through to show you that I've been there as well. And then he just he just opened up. I was straightaway trying to figure out what it might be. But I was like, What do you mean, you've been through something. You're like this big, strong bloke, you own these businesses, you're always happy, always charming. There's no way you've been through anything. And then for the next 30 minutes, he just spoke, he went back to things he'd been through as a child and school and just really honestly talked about how he had basically found himself in a place of deep, deep depression. I can feel it. Now I can't explain the feeling of shock and relief and surprise. And I think a little bit of hope. Because for a long time I've been telling myself, I'm broken beyond repair. But also that there was no way I was gonna have a life after this. And then I had this guy in front of me. I really, really respected suddenly telling me that he'd been there. He'd got better, and now he was living the life you want it to lead?

What a surprise. It was because this guy comes across as perfect. And he wasn't was he?

Not at all. And, you know, I think what was really powerful for me is okay, yes, in that moment, I learned he wasn't perfect. And that told me I didn't have to be perfect. That was really, really important for my journey. But actually, looking back now I know that was a turning point in almost how I saw everyone how I saw the entire world and everyone on it, because I realised nobody is perfect. Up until that point I had, I was so caught up in my head and perceptions and image and what society tells us and what a man should look like, quote unquote, everything was just I think my whole perception of everyone was built on falsehoods and the image they want to show you.

That's the thing about human beings. We're all messy in our weird and wonderful ways. And I think that's something to be celebrated a lot of times and whether you want to call that vulnerabilities, authenticity, whatever. We're no one's perfect at all. But we've built this construct of people, you built this construct of this guy being perfect, maybe by the way that your parents had spoken about him. And the irony was that he was supposed to be there to kind of show you what it means to be a man to overcome these issues. He's this perfect being and he's really not that and actually he's going through the exact things that you are going through or he had gone through those things in the past that we've come up the other side

And things have changed a little bit in recent years, but for some reason we've managed to build up a society where the more perfect to them. As you get across, the more, you're rewarded. And whether that is people working to the point of, you know, overworking to the point of burnout in order to go further promotions or whatever it is, or it's people trying to show a certain life on social media. And then the validation you get back for that is likes and comments and engagement, we're almost hardwired to look for that perfectionism. And it's not often that messiness, or complications are, are rewarded, or, or celebrated. But then it all it means that we do is we're just conditioning people, and training people to learn how to put a mask on to hide the things they're going through, because they think if they show it, they're gonna be shunned. And all it does is make it worse, doesn't doesn't mean put a mask, it doesn't, it doesn't go away. And so it is weird. We're living in this world where everyone's sort of not everyone, but not people are walking around, pretending to themselves and others that everything is great. And we're all doing that to each other. Whereas every single person you crossed will have something going on, could be small, could be big. But we're sort of living this pretence that nobody ever goes through anything, which is just ridiculous. So I think I've become since that conversation, I think I've become almost a champion of the messiness, and the crap and the stuff that goes wrong. And that's the stuff I talk about, you know, talking about the good stuff, but talk about the bad stuff, too, because that, that is life, life is the good stuff and the bad stuff. You don't, you can't have one without the other. Yeah, I've made it my mission to almost celebrate the crap, celebrate the messiness, it's not always good. But there's often lessons in there, but more than anything, I think it really helps you to to appreciate the good stuff.

It's interesting, because when we think about men, and even when we're young boys as well, this idea of a man is strong, powerful, no weaknesses, is this perfect being and vulnerability is not something that's talked about a lot with men, it started to get into more conversation, whether it's on social media, the media as a whole people talking about it, but it's, we're still definitely not where we need to be around this issue. That vulnerability is not weakness, but it's something that is kind of instilled in us as kids, I think, and then that's more through our experiences, our formative years on the playground, go into school, university, so you can't show the world how you are really feeling it's

almost like prehistoric, you know, we go back 1000s of years longer to it's, it's built into us that generally, men are the breadwinners, they're the hunters, they're there to protect their family. That's, that's like biologically built into us. And I think on a societal level, that that is what we keep telling ourselves that, that men need to be able to protect their family, and they need to be able to provide, and weakness or vulnerability seems at odds with that. But I think, you know, what is what the ironic thing is, is actually buying not almost embracing vulnerability, I think you then can do, you can almost do a worse job of coming to protect yourself and others, like I think in, in trying to give off this image that I can protect myself and others, and that I was strong and ignored my vulnerability actually led me to a worse place actually led me to a place where I was thinking about taking my own life. Whereas I firmly believe that, you know, I regret nothing, because it's all part of the journey. But I firmly believe that if I was the George, I am now back in 2014. And at the first sign of struggle, I was able to just go and see a therapist or say to a friend, I don't feel right. I don't think I would have had anywhere near as difficult a journey as I as I had. So I think, you know, embracing vulnerability is, is a part of what gives us strength, and allows us to protect the people around us.

As men, we do a lot of suppression as well, I was speaking to a mate last week about this. And he says, I just suppress it, I just bury it. And I just kind of just thought, come on, mate. You can't just suppress things. You've got to let them out. But he's got this sort of stubborn mentality that he's not willing to change that. I'm thinking about how many times he told other people about this suppression, then that gets passed on. And if these people look up to him, they think yeah, that's the way that you should suppress things. You shouldn't really be vulnerable with stuff. The the cycle continues then and I definitely do not think that's healthy at all. Because you think about how many times we've looked up to somebody say someone could be three, four or five years old. Even this guy that you met in the pub, John, if he'd have said I suppress things, that's the The advice that I would give to you today, and you are then not given an opportunity to open up because you think, well, he's this perfect guy, he's suppressing things. So I'm going to do the same thing as him, and then you wouldn't have got anywhere. And you said to me before how pivotal, it was, as a life changing moment to speak to this guy and find out that actually, he's going through the same things, as you just imagine if he had not done that, where would you be right? Now,

the scary answer to that question is, honestly, I wouldn't be here anymore, you know, I would have, I would have taken my own life. So that, you know, that's the, that's the real danger that we're talking about with this stuff here. But even if I hadn't got to that point, I wouldn't be happy, because suppression doesn't work, I think, you know, we like to think it does work, we like to think that suppression means that you it goes, and that you almost suppressed it out of your body doesn't work like that, it just, it just stays within you. And that's why you often see, you know, people suppress things for years and years and years and years. And then it just explodes into into a crisis of some kind or explodes into an addiction in some sort of vise, whatever that might be. So you can't wait. I mean, you can suppress difficult emotions, but they they will build up on top of each other, just like it just be like a VAT that eventually reaches sort of boiling point. And that explosion has to go somewhere. And often, if it's gone, you know, years and years of suppression, unfortunately, it often goes to something negative, whether that is you know, layout advice, or something more, you know, more difficult, which is why, you know, the more what we you know, what I really, really believe in now is the more as things come up, whatever, whatever is going on in your life. You talk through it, you process it, you work through it. That's it, you've that emotion has been dealt with you move through it, it's left versus store in a store, and it's store on a starting point always has to be conversation.

It's got to start there and storing it doesn't do anyone any good at all. And I've done that as well. And I've been through a similar journey to you as well, just storing these things. And there's no outlet for it. And there's a really famous book, I don't if you read it, it's called the Body Keeps the Score. There's traumas there. And you could leave that for 40 5060 years, but at some point, it will come out. And it probably might come out in dribs and drabs, it might just come out in this sort of huge moment. And you could be 6070 years old thinking about a situation that you went through when you were five years old. 10 years old. The red flags were kind of there, but you didn't you chose to ignore them. And I've definitely ignored those red flags over the years for sure.

Yeah, you know, I think where I'm at now. Like I said, I regret nothing, because it was, it was difficult, but I've got to a place where, you know, life still happens to me, good things happen, bad things happen. But I know in myself, I feel more or less comfortable with with who I am. And if things come up, I'll talk about them, as I already said, doesn't always make it any easier. If there's difficult conversation, I have my girlfriend, I don't just sort of, you know, bound into the room, and I'm like, here's my trauma, and let's talk about it. I've got to work myself up to it. And I feel nervous. And you know, I might sort of mumble the words or whatever. But I really know that the outcome, the positive result, and the positive upside of having those conversations far outweighs this, this need to sort of suppress it or that, you know, the difficult with difficulty of having the conversation. I think I just, you know, what I asked myself now is who Who am I benefiting? By not talking or not having conversations? And really, the answer is no one. Okay? Yes, I'm, no, I'm benefiting. The benefits are the only thing I'll be benefiting is this perception that I'm giving off to people that everything's rosy. But again, who is that perception benefiting? It's not me, it's not benefiting me. So I think you just have to be when it comes to stuff, you have to be really, really selfish. And, and that's where I'm at now. I'm very, very selfish in that I will talk about things I'll be vulnerable about things include, you know, I do it. I do it on LinkedIn, not everyone has asked to do that. And not everyone agrees with that. But I'm selfish enough that that I'm okay with that, that if I'm Ron Ron, people on LinkedIn don't like it, blocked me on follow me. And we're vulnerable. And people in my life don't like it. We don't have to stay connected. But that's never happened. By the way. The thing that I was scared of that I was going to be vulnerable. And all these all my people were going to leave me has never happened. Because when you're when you're vulnerable. You know, as we've already talked about, everyone has gone through something or is going through something so by you being vulnerable actually you're giving that personal permission, just as John did to me, to show them that they can be vulnerable to, and that, you know, the world isn't going to come crashing down on them.

I want to ask you as well judge what actually led to the depression and the anxiety and the suicidal thoughts? I've not, we've not covered that so far. I think you people will be curious to know, kind of, yeah, what led to that moment,

15:20

I think there was like a, it was like a mixing pot of stuff, it wasn't, there wasn't like a specific event that happened. And then that led me down a dark path, I think it was just a whole mixing pot of, I've always been a bit of a sensitive guy, like I feel things really, really deeply. That that was always a real struggle for me, you know, coming back to this image of what a man should be, like, quote, unquote, this sort of masculine man, I didn't fit that I was skinny, I, you know, had a lot of feminine traits. I was, you know, certainly in a very sensitive, very emotional. So I think, I think the sort of foundations were there for someone that felt feels things deeper. But I think, you know, I think it meant I'd, I'd sort of take our take knocks a bit easier then then people at uni, like, you know, if I if I was chasing a girl and she you know, she rejected me, I think I'll order it, you know, where other blokes are laugh it off, I think I really feel the rejection. So I think it was just, you know, the normal trials of, of being a teenager, early 20s, man, but then, you know, on top of that, being at uni, just really, really had no awareness of, of looking after myself had no awareness of my physical health and mental health. And, you know, people talk about burning the candle at both ends, but it was burning it every single end that that occurred, you know, out, out four times a week, late clubbing, drugs drink, I was balancing three part time jobs on top of my degree. You know, I wasn't drinking water, my diet was atrocious, it was ready meals, wasn't getting enough sleep wasn't exercising, gradually, it was just a, it was like a, you know, everything you need in a petri dish to kind of bring about, you know, feeling negative, I was doing really, so I think I just, I think I was driving my body into the ground by not looking after it. And then I just, I think just the stress and pressure of uni just made me start to feel a little bit weird, which was, which was the anxiety at the time. But then then it just became a self fulfilling prophecy, because I then got so hooked on the fact I was feeling weird, and weak, that then became the thing that really drove the depression and anxiety and the suicide because I became hooked on this idea that I was broken, I wasn't a real man, I was never gonna have a proper life. So it was just this horrible cycle I got myself into, whereas regular anxious and probably a little bit down, then that made me feel crap. And then I just, it just went and then whatever it happened before, almost didn't matter, then it just took a life of its own. Because I'd wake up feeling depressed, and I feel depressed, that I was depressed and just the cycle continues.

And it feels like the external and the internal have kind of come together, the internal feelings of vulnerability, being very sensitive to rejection, things like that, coupled with going out a lot, drinking too much lack of exercise, eating bad food, all of that combined together. No wonder you were feeling the way that you were feeling then have to be selfish.

Now, I think knowingthe place I got to have to be selfish, and that that means changing the way that I live. And, you know, I don't I don't believe in you know, you'll, you'll see some sort of people say that you must do this every week, you must give up alcohol, you must do this, you must do this, that I don't believe in that. Because that's not life isn't as easy as that. I think I just for me, I believe in balance. And that means some weeks, I've got a lot of plans going on a lot of drinking, I'm going to eat crap, I'm probably going to feel a bit crap. But then that might mean the next week, I have to selfishly say to those around me, including my girlfriend up. I'm not doing this this week. I need to eat healthy, I need to be out I need to exercise that. I think it's just where before I would, I would chase you know, fun and doing as much as I could and those are my priorities. I think now My priority is my, myself, you know, my my well being, knowing that, you know, some week like I've just come I've just come back from a wedding this weekend. So my priority wasn't really my well being this weekend. You know, we drank a lot. We were going to feel a bit crap, but I keep defaulting back to that. So knowing that that we can this last weekend I was going to be drinking a lot. The next this week the next few days after selfishly, I've looked at my car Under intent, I'm going to cancel that stuff out, I'm going to keep that free. my well being goes back back to being the top priority.

It's interesting that you say about being selfish. But actually looking after number one actually helps all those around you, your girlfriend, your family and friends and everyone else. So actually, it does benefit all those people. But we immediately think, oh, we can't be selfish, we can't look after ourselves. And it's that whole analogy of putting the oxygen mask on yourself first, when you're on the plane before you put it on anyone else next to you. That is

20:28

the problem. Because where our society places the value of mental health and well being at the moment, it's, you know, in recent years, yes, it has become more important, but it's still, really in my mind, everyone should be waking up every day and thinking about their health as a priority. You know, obviously, life takes over sometimes if you're a parent, you've got a couple of kids, it's not always as easy to just wake up and selfishly Think of yourself, but but wellbeing and mental health should should be right up there. There's a guy a guy called Ryan Hopkins who is great in this space and he uses a phrase health ish pneus he says we should be selfish about our health. But you know, I agree it's it shouldn't it shouldn't be selfish because you you prioritise yourself. I think whose it is that what's the quote, everyone loves share in the room, Paul, quote, you you got to be able to love yourself before you can love someone else, that that kind of thing. I think, if the more people put themselves first and feel good about themselves, the more they'll be putting that energy back out into the world. If you feel good, you'll show up and give it to someone else. Give them good energy back. But yeah, I think you know, when I come back to the, what we said during the chat that our society doesn't really reward vulnerability. So that's why it feels selfish because our society at the moment doesn't reward if I say to my mates, you know what, I'm not going to come out tonight and drink come looking after myself. I don't get rewarded for that. I get I get crap off my mates, right, I guess stick. So I think until that perception has changed. And actually we can, we can look at someone who who says, You know what, I'm not feeling my best right now. I'm gonna stay in and we say, you know, clap and say well done. It's gonna feel selfish. But that's why you've got to stay firm, no matter how guilty you feel.

Something that struck me about George's story is the burden his mom must have felt carrying the secret that her son was experiencing extreme bouts of depression and anxiety. His mom was sworn to secrecy. But is that the right thing to do when she knows the best thing for him is to speak it out and get help. Thankfully, it was only a matter of time before she eventually let slip to someone else that he was struggling. Fortunately, it was the right thing for her to do. There's definitely times when our parents say things to others that we absolutely hated at the time. But we're kind of glad of upon reflection. I've certainly been there with my own mother for sure, and had an unnecessary popper her diary I regretted to be honest and apologise for afterwards. It also made me think about secrets in men, and how we sometimes feel like we're forced into not showing our true selves because of shame or guilt. I had a secret in the first few years of high school, where I felt compelled, I suppose not to tell people that I lived on a council estate. And in retrospect, I don't know why I felt that way. After all, it was outside of my control as an 1112 13 year old whether I lived on a council estate, or I lived in a grand mansion. It wasn't my choice. And I suppose as kids, we just deal with the cards that were dealt, right. And also as well, living in a council house wasn't even a bad thing. I absolutely loved my time on that estate is just I was preoccupied with the thoughts and opinions of other people who lived off it. And what they thought of me, which was, I suppose, just a waste of time and energy. And it got to the point where friends parents, were dropping me off at my grandfather's terraced house after birthday parties, and stuff like that. And I would then just walk on from there. My nan who lived in Ireland even said to me, Alex, if they're truly your friends, why would they even care where you live? And obviously, she was right. But at the time, I just couldn't see it. I was embarrassed and thought my mates would think bad of me and think, Well, Alex is poor and not worth hanging out with. In my head. I was thinking I don't want to be exposed for having this dirty little secret. And it was clear that George felt the same way. But do you judge him for having bad mental health? Of course now, and would you judge your friend for feeling that way to what kind of man was George from the eight types of men out there? Listening to the episode made me realise he's a thinker, being a thinker can be both good and bad. Good for George in the sense that he thought a lot about meeting the guy in the pub and made the right call in the end. But on the other side, his thoughts during his depression made him feel worse, but which type of money you take the man test to find out. It takes less than three minutes to complete, and you'll learn a lot about who you really are. The link is in the show notes.