0:00:05.4 VB: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:09.2 AS: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission, to change the conversation about education, civil rights and modern activism.

0:00:19.5 VB: Each week we're gonna explore new topics, which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:25.5 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:33.4 VB: Welcome back friends.

0:00:35.0 AS: Hello.

0:00:35.5 VB: Hello.

0:00:37.2 KW: Hello.

0:00:38.6 VB: So today we have a really fun episode because we have not one, but two guests and we're gonna get right into it. So we have the community manager and we also have the founder of Two by Two. Welcome.

0:00:55.4 KW: Well thank you. Thank you for having us.

0:00:57.6 IF: Excited to be here.

0:01:00.6 VB: Can you guys introduce yourselves and then just give us a brief background and then how you came to Two by Two.

0:01:06.7 KW: Absolutely. How about I start?

0:01:09.1 IF: Sounds good.

0:01:09.5 KW: Hi, I'm Kristin Woodward-Vaassen and I am the founder of Two by Two Character Development, which started in 2005. So we're almost 20-years-old...

0:01:22.0 VB: Wow, wow.

0:01:23.8 KW: Very exciting. And we have grown from our community here in Dubuque, Iowa to now 36 states and internationally. Our latest is Jamaica.

0:01:36.0 VB: Wow.

0:01:37.0 KW: Yes. We're just reaching so many kids and just a little background. I won't go on and on because you know, teachers, I was a teacher for 20 years and you know how we can talk. So I was in the classroom teaching third grade in the 2000s and one of the things that I just realized is kids needs were not being taken care of. And what I mean by that is, their social and emotional [0:02:07.0] ____ bills were not built. And so here we were so demanding because I don't know if people remember, but back then, no child left behind was in place in schools.

0:02:17.7 KW: What that meant for us as educators is you just teach the core, just the basics, not the actual skills of the character skills that we need to have, which is such a foundation. So long story short, I stepped out in the classroom then in 2005 and started Two by Two Character Development, which I know we're gonna have lots of questions and be able to talk about that more through this program today. But I'm going to pass it off to my awesome community outreach director. And this is Icle Freeland. And that is why we have grown so much is because of him and the team he's built since he's been here.

0:02:57.7 IF: So, I'm Icle. A little bit about my background. I'm a former second grade teacher. I've also worked in character education, other dynamics as well through the University of Dubuque, Wendt Center for Character Education. So I have a mix between working with the elementary level, but also a bit in the higher Ed-Space, working with college kids. So it's kind of a nice draw there. And that's really what drew me to Two by Two Character Development. I've been here for a little under two years now. And really what I do is I work with schools to help them implement the program, find resources for them, stuff like that, so that they can engage with it and just really break it.

0:03:37.9 IF: When it comes to engaging with the students with the program, just get the most out of it. And meeting their unique needs, 'cause we are all different and there's different things that fit. So that's really a little bit about me and how I got here.

0:03:49.9 VB: Awesome. Can you guys talk a little bit about Two by Two and what you do, your programming, and we'll get into how you guys are helping support these kiddos?

0:04:00.2 KW: Absolutely. So our staple program is the Kind-Hearted Kids Program. Really built. We initially built it for like say the second or third grade level. But what we're finding as this program emerges into other places is it is fitting all different grade levels in all different tiers. So in tier one, tier two, and tier three. So that whole group down to just that one-on-one, which is very exciting, getting out in the field and what kids need today. It's not just that whole group instruction. So the kids program, it is the best.

0:04:37.8 KW: You have to picture yourself being like say, let's say you're a second grade student and the first day that you start the Kind-Hearted Kids Program, each child in the classroom receives a little teeny carrier. And inside that carrier is a little stuffed cat or dog, and they're amazingly soft and different breeds and so forth. And then they have what we call a pet journal. And that's where their adventure activities are done. That's where the responsibility comes in. They become these pet owners and they have this ownership from the very beginning. And then throughout this 10-week program or 10 lessons, kids learn about being kind and responsible, having a responsibility.

0:05:24.1 KW: Oh my goodness, the empathy piece just really emerges from this because they want their pet really taken care of. They truly care for it like it's real and because it's the perfect age to do this. And so the empathy piece comes out very strong in this program. And finally, we're trying to help them become these good productive citizens. So that's what this program does in a short time. But what I always say is there's so many Character Development Programs out there. The differences with Kind-Hearted Kids, it's the hands-on and the application. We're practicing how to be kind.

0:06:00.6 VB: I agree.

0:06:00.7 KW: We're practicing how to be responsible and to be empathetic. And that's the piece that's so hard. We can see the kids are trying and so forth, but like, "Let's show it." So that's what's exciting about the Kind-Hearted Kids program.

0:06:12.8 AS: Yeah. I know that's what drew us to your booth, Icle, when we saw you at the BOOST conference a months ago, we were like who are these little...

0:06:19.0 VB: We saw the little dogs.

0:06:21.5 AS: Tiny doggies. Yeah. Yeah.

0:06:23.8 VB: And we both have them...

0:06:25.1 IF: Tends to be a favorite.

0:06:27.2 VB: Yeah. And we both have young kids who love their stuffies. And so we were immediately drawn because we were like, "Oh, that's where our kids would be."

0:06:33.5 VB: Yeah. And I mean, what, what kid doesn't like a little stuffed animal? And not only just the cuteness and the softness, but like to have that ownership over like, this is mine. I'm taking care of him or her.

0:06:53.0 KW: Well, what's really cool is in those pet journals, every single pet has a little profile. This is what's so amazing and makes it, oh my goodness. It just gets kids so excited because they found out, find out their pet's name, how old they are. I mean, we have puppies, we have elderly, elderly dogs that are like 12, have arthritis. We have kitties that have, that are diabetic. I mean, none of the animals are perfect, just like we're not perfect. They look different just like we look different. And so they see where their pet came from. And you know what? Not all the stories are happy stories.

0:07:24.0 KW: Some of them, we have a little cat that has blue eyes, his name is chocolate chip, and he was found in an apartment stranded because someone just got up and left. Well, think about all the foster kids. And how we have to deal with that. And that's how we take that foundation of those animals and really apply it to the kids. So, makes it very fun and very much it's theirs. It's their pet, it's their responsibility.

0:07:53.5 AS: Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. That reminds me of a post that I had seen of a teacher saying like, highly recommend naming glue sticks because kids don't care if they lose a glue stick. But if you can't find Jim, everybody's going a 100%.

0:08:09.7 IF: Oh yeah.

0:08:11.3 AS: Where is Jim, we've lost Jim cap. So I can only imagine. Yeah. So I can only imagine with that age group in particular, second, third graders, giving them a pet with diabetes. And Icle I remember you kind of telling me a story about a little child that had diabetes. Can you kind of reiterate that for, obviously you tell it a lot better than me, and I kind of spoiled the surprise. [laughter] But do you mind sharing that 'cause it really kind of shows the heart of the program and how easy it is to implement within a classroom or an afterschool care program.

0:08:48.5 IF: Absolutely. And I think that's like really one of the big things like that really comes out of the program is that connection that the students build with their pets.

0:08:56.1 VB: Yes.

0:08:56.7 IF: Because they really care for them. And like Kristin already mentioned as they would a real pet. And like the story that, you're alluding to, so like in Kristin, I think it was actually your classroom, wasn't it?

0:09:07.5 KW: Yeah. It was...

0:09:07.9 IF: So she might actually be the better one to tell it.

0:09:10.1 VB: Okay.

0:09:10.7 IF: 'Cause she experienced it.

0:09:13.0 KW: It was way back when we first started and when we give out our pets in the classroom, say there's 25 kiddos, no idea who's gonna get chocolate chip or who's gonna get glaucoma or who's gonna get Mr. Nick. And all of a sudden the kids unveil their pets, they start reading all about them. And a little girl's hand goes up and she says, "My kitty is just like me." And all kids are looking at her like, what do you mean? And she goes, "Well, I'm diabetic and so is Mr. Nick." Well, at that age, not all kids know what that means.

0:09:47.6 VB: Right.

0:09:48.1 AS: Yeah.

0:09:48.2 KW: So one of this, she explained what it is and that she has to get a shot, she has to get insulin and why and so forth. And one of my boys, and this is just so typical, he said, "Is why you go to the nurse's office at noon every day?" Oh my god. You just had, or you were just weird or you had a problem. And so right away they're just like, oh, you know, here we thought you had a problem. But you have to go get a shot. That's not a fun thing. So that empathy started to build right away for this little girl. But how they need those connections. And that just was, you know, we have no idea. And by golly, she got a kitten who's just like her.

0:10:24.6 AS: Yeah.

0:10:25.3 VB: Well, and not only helps, I think certain kiddos who can have those similarities and see like, it's not just me and the other kids being able to like learn about differences, but it truly does like show them how these other kids, just because they have these differences or they're different than us, they're just like us still. And we talk all the time about like the best way to really encourage inclusion and support inclusion in the classroom. And, it's so much can come from the students. I don't think we often give kids enough credit for what they're capable of.

0:11:02.9 VB: They don't learn to treat others poorly from the get go. We teach it to them, unfortunately. They inherently want to be with each other and take care of each other. And I think that's something that gets lost of like, we have these cookie cutter classrooms and like things have to be done a certain way. And having a program where they can, in a very like positive light, learn about the differences of their peers, that it's just one part of us, I think is just so important and powerful.

0:11:34.3 KW: Yeah. And you're making me think of another story. Icle, do you mind, I'm a hogging all your time. [laughter] But I'm just thinking of this little girl. I'll never forget when we were teaching this one class and we were meeting with the teachers ahead of time and kind of going through the program. And they said, you know what, we have this little girl that comes, but the little girl had peer educators with her all the time. So she really was, she was part of that class, but she was really pulled out probably 90% of the class.

0:12:05.8 VB: Wow.

0:12:06.6 KW: 'Cause she just had other things going on. And so they didn't know if they were gonna include her in the Kind-Hearted Kid program. And we encouraged them to include her and let's see what happens. So they did, here this little girl on day one gets a little black kitty named Pepper. Okay. And Pepper has all these things going on. And she just loved Pepper. That wasn't the amazing thing. It was what happened later. We got a letter from her mom and she said, the day they started the Kind-Hearted Kids program was the day that her child's life changed.

0:12:46.3 KW: She said, I always pick up my daughter on this one corner after school. And every day I pick up my daughter, she said, she's standing there alone. She doesn't, she's not talking with any other kids. Communicating with her like she doesn't have any friends. And she said the day they had Kind-Hearted kids, she had like five other kids around her because they were all looking at their pets. They all had their little carriers. They were taking them home. They were saying, well, whom did you get? And tell me about chocolate chip and tell me about Brownie. And she had pepper. And she said, oh my gosh. She goes, as a ma my heart filled and my eyes just teared up because somebody was talking to my little girl.

0:13:26.8 AS: Yeah.

0:13:27.1 KW: And so, I mean, that is huge to be able to find something where kids can start communicating. And they're like, Oh, well, you know, then, you know, where does it go from there? Well, at least it's a start.

0:13:41.4 AS: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And they almost did not include her. Right?

0:13:43.9 KW: Right, right.

0:13:44.1 AS: Like, it just almost was like, oh, well, yeah, maybe we shouldn't. And that's just that we see that a lot with our clients.

0:13:51.6 KW: Yes.

0:13:51.8 VB: It's like, why wouldn't you like, just let's include her and then we can pull back if we need to.

0:13:58.2 KW: Exactly. Exactly.

0:13:58.5 VB: So when we were at the BOOST conference, we had, I think, as we mentioned, a lot of professionals from afterschool programs asking us about how they can support kiddos in afterschool programs. And one of the first things that we offered as a suggestion was, well, of course, if this is affiliated with the school, if this is something that the child needs for their social development, or academic support, the IEP team can certainly make recommendations and provide support. And that's one piece. But, we really were hoping to talk about your program and how it could really support kiddos who are struggling in these afterschool programs, where it's a very unstructured environment.

0:14:37.1 VB: And like, the kid might be okay at school, or maybe they have an aid at school. But then they go to the afterschool program, it's sometimes very unstructured and behavior exists, or just the kids don't feel like they're making as much progress. So we're hoping to kind of speak a little bit towards how you can implement this program within those.

0:14:57.9 IF: Yeah. And I think it's like one of those things that we're kind of seeing too, that afterschool education is evolving. It's like, I hear all the time talking with educators and just those that are coordinating these programs where, like you said, in some cases, it can be very unstructured. But there's also kind of this push now too, that how can we build on the school day into afterschool to kind of continue to reinforce some of these skills. And whether that and meet the needs of these students, where that's really kind of because like when Kind-Hearted Kids was originally put together, it was kind of more geared towards like second, third grade classrooms during the school day.

0:15:32.1 IF: What we found is that it can, it's not a cookie cutter program where you can just really just for one thing, you can use it in those different formats to meet different needs of students. Where maybe it's during the school day, you don't have time to implement another program because there's all these other things that educators are taking care of, where this is something that fits really well in afterschool where you can reinforce some of those empathy, building that empathy, responsibility, all those things. And we still have a lot of schools that use it during the school time. We also have a lot of afterschool programs use it.

0:16:04.1 IF: We have summer camps use it as well. And it's just kind of really identifying what fits best into what you're looking for. 'Cause I know we've worked with some schools, that's kind of the great parts about my job is I get to work with educators all over the country. Just kind of learning more about their needs, kind of what they're doing, what they're looking for. And as you can imagine, they're all different. And that's really where we found Kind-Hearted Kids can really fill a role is, in some cases, they get one pet and it's a classroom pet they take care of. We've had programs all the way from like pre-K all the way up to fifth grade use the program just 'cause where the students are at is different.

0:16:39.5 IF: And kind of what they're looking, they're hoping to achieve is different. And really where this fits in is this is the hands on component where you can include a pet to develop those skills, I think can be kind of as you build that connection and work through different things with your pet translates into yourself, it translates into your classmates, your teachers, other people around you, how you treat other animals, the environment, everything. I mean, it's important to build those skills.

0:17:06.3 AS: And I imagine it can layer, right? Even if a child, let's say, had it in kindergarten in the after school program and then revisited it in the second grade because that teacher had it within the same school, you're going to be building on the foundational aspect 'cause the kindergartner was probably worried about getting it dirty or whatever. And by second grade, it's like, oh, they have this illness or they have this difference. And this is how I now need to take care of it. And so that's why I like the versatility of it, because it's not going to be the same program, even if a teacher has done it each year, because you have different students each year, right.

0:17:45.1 AS: And like you said Kristin. Like there was no way that was just like the cosmos, the universe, Kismet, that little girl with diabetes, got the pet that had diabetes. I mean, and even if she didn't, I think the conversation would have still started because, oh, my cat has this. And she would have been like, oh, I have that. Right. Like so it was amazing. But also it would have been amazing if she didn't have it. And that's what I love about the program is it's just so versatile.

0:18:16.9 KW: Well, thank you. And I was just thinking of Icle himself when he first started here. You were attracted to Domino. And you want me to tell them why now, Domino is a Dalmatian. And he goes, oh, my goodness, this is the one that speaks to me. And why is that?

0:18:29.9 IF: So, yeah, well, Domino really spoke to me just 'cause Domino happens to be deaf. And my younger brother is deaf. And I remember growing up and hearing stories of him coming home from school where like kids would say, like, what was it like? You can't do this or you can't do that. And you can't 'cause this is kind of based on just not fully understanding what it means.

0:18:51.7 AS: Totally.

0:18:52.4 IF: But like he's like, I can do all those things. But it's definitely one of those things that really appealed to me because it's that connection piece. Like, as you learn about your own story, it's a whole threshold to start to like understand that, oh, yes, our animals have differences and that translates to other people. So as you learn to care for these things, it all translates to how you then care for, like I was saying before, like your classmates and stuff like that. Whereas what I was thinking was like, oh, this would have been such a cool thing for him to have because I actually was hearing stories that he would come home saying, which like those things impact you as you grow up. As you hear those, then like you can internalize that stuff.

0:19:30.6 VB: Absolutely. Absolutely.

0:19:30.9 IF: Which I think it's one of those things that's really beneficial.

0:19:34.5 AS: Yeah. And the animal is an extension of you. Right. And it's kind of like that where people will open up, you know, if you're driving, right, 'cause you're not really looking at each other or you're on a hike or you're doing something active, like people tend to open up. But when the animal is an extension of you and you can talk freely about why you're caring for it, I think it really opens up. And eases the tension that some kiddos might feel with raising their hand or participating because it's not about them, right? Even though it is.

0:20:04.5 IF: Right.

[laughter]

0:20:06.9 KW: Yeah, that pet just breaks down those barriers.

0:20:10.6 AS: Yeah, yeah.

0:20:10.7 VB: Well and we know that...

0:20:10.6 KW: And they say we needed to talk about those hard topics.

0:20:12.9 IF: That's really cool too.

0:20:14.4 VB: I was gonna say we know that when kids are having challenges, whether in the school setting or an after school program, that sometimes their behavior is a form of communication. It's something that they're, struggling with. And anything that we can do to help them, communicate or really be able to express how they're feeling and, what they might need help with. I think this can really be that device. I mean, I'm thinking about a child in particular that I'm working with that is trying to get back into an afterschool program that he really struggled in before.

0:20:48.0 VB: And wanting to make sure that he is feeling supported in an environment. And so anything that can really help him, not only bridge that gap, but really find that connection with, I think, his peers and with the other adults in the program, I think can go a long way.

0:21:06.1 KW: Well, and that makes me think of, kids need a purpose. Kids need a purpose. And we had, and it happens to go along with Mr. Nick again. But we had a guidance counselor that told us he had a little boy second grade suicidal. I mean, can you imagine? I mean, second grade, it just makes your heart just ache.

0:21:26.7 AS: Right.

0:21:26.7 KW: But, he as a counselor happened to be starting Kind-Hearted Kids and he had all the animals lined up in his office. And this little boy came in because he was working with him every morning. And the little boy said, oh, who's that? And who's this? And he kind of introduced him to some of the animals. They ended up working with Mr. Nick and he had him start then working with Mr. Nick ahead of time and he had to come in and give him a shot every single morning. He had to, there were certain responsibilities that he gave him that he needed to do every single day.

0:21:57.8 KW: And that gave that child a purpose to live. And that's what's so sad is we need to go that far with such a young child. But unfortunately we do. But if we can take Kind-Hearted kids and help individual students like that too. It's there for them.

0:22:16.5 VB: Absolutely.

0:22:17.9 KW: And it worked in that situation.

0:22:17.9 VB: Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, it is heartbreaking. We've had clients that young and a little younger, and as a parent, as an educator sometimes you just don't know. Right. And it's so wonderful that, like I said, your program can fit in so many different ways and that's why we wanted to be able to have you come in and speak to it. And, if any administrators or teachers wanted more information as to how they can get your program in their school or in their district, how can they reach out to you?

0:22:50.8 IF: So I mean, you could either reach out to one of us directly, probably the easiest way is just they go to our website. It's twobytwoeducation.org. And then we have like a little like connect with us thing on there. Otherwise, I don't know. You can also, there's also our email info at twobytwoeducation.org and then we'd be happy to get kind of a conversation started, just to kind of see what makes the most sense for you.

0:23:14.3 AS: Incredible. We appreciate your time. We are so grateful for the work that you're doing and I hope it's even more international the next time that we talk to you guys.

[laughter]

0:23:25.3 VB: Yes.

0:23:25.4 KW: Well thank you. And we appreciate what you do as well, and we love your dog, Liam. That's beautiful. But thank you for doing what you do for our kids.

0:23:37.4 VB: Oh, thank you. We appreciate you guys and please reach out to them if you are thinking about this being a perfect fit for your school because I think it is, and we will talk to you guys next week.

0:23:50.3 AS: Bye.

0:23:52.1 KW: Sounds good. Bye. Thanks again.

0:23:52.7 VB: Bye.

0:23:52.8 IF: Thank you.