Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

I'm the host.

I'm the founder of Borderlands.

Today I have another bad Runner's take for you.

And we're talking about brand ambassador culture.

Where is it working?

Where is it broken?

Where is it legit?

Where is it dishonest?

We delve into all of it.

Remember, on Bad Runners Take, these are episodes where we offer our take on current events, on things happening in the industry.

Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

But I guarantee you, when I'm saying it's always coming from a bad runner.

Before we get into it, though, I'm going to do a live podcast in Salt Lake City on January 18th.

I'll be flying home from Paris.

I'll be there for 36 hours to do a live podcast with the Billy Yang.

I can't tell you how excited I am to be able to host him.

We'll do a live podcast.

We'll do a Q and A.

I'm with one of the legends of our industry.

I am beyond excited.

We're going to do what we're calling the speedboat 5K.

That's right.

For all of you who've lived in Salt Lake and have ever tried to text your friends to see if they're going to run speedgoat 50k and you've been autocorrected to speedboat, we now have a race for you.

It's the Speedboat 5K and it's actually just a fun run.

It's not a race.

We're going to do that speedboat 5k with Billy and then we're going to go do the podcast.

Details are coming soon.

We're nailing down venues, but the date is set January 18th.

Also, I hope that you will run Devil's Gulch 150 or half marathon up in Wenatchee, Washington.

You've heard me talk about it a lot.

I'm a big fan of Porter and kd.

I think it's a wonderfully familial race.

I can't say enough good things about it.

I won't stop saying good things about it either.

I got a link for it in the show notes, so check that out.

Finally, Wilder 1.0.

That's the app that I've been developing and working on for the last 18 months.

It's democratized run clubs.

Search for a run club in your area.

You can search by when they Run where they run.

You can vet the groups in advance before you meet up with them.

All the things that just further enable the running world to be connected.

Even better.

That app drops sometime in Q1 of 2025, but we're full on development.

I got new partners with me, and I'm super excited.

Okay, here we go.

Bad runners take with my dude, Wolf Runner.

That's Brian Peterson.

Hope you enjoy it.

It's a bad runner's take.

It's a bad runner's take.

It's a bad runner's take.

All right, Back with another bad runner's take with my dude, Wolf Runner Brian Peterson, coming to you from Arizona.

I'm coming to you from Paris, France.

But we will not let technology come between us.

In fact, we're upping our technology game right now.

We are.

We want to hear from you more because we know we're sometimes thrown out controversial takes, and maybe controversial is even not a big enough word.

Just random takes and our takes, and we want to hear your takes, and we want to hear what you think about our takes.

And so you can now call run more.

649.

That's Runmore.

649.

786, 667.

3,649.

I'll have it in the show notes, and you can leave us a message or you can text that number.

Texting is fine.

It's accepted.

But we really want to hear your voice.

So if you have a hot take, it doesn't even have to be about what we're doing.

Just know that if you leave the message, that message belongs to me and I can make it public.

So be careful what you say.

I'd love for you to put your name on it so we can know who you are.

Because really, this is mostly, you know, if not entirely about having fun, but we do want to hear from you.

We want to play these voice messages on the air.

And so we've got plenty to talk about today.

But if you've been a fan for a while, we got lots of old episode episodes, too.

Everything is on the table, so you can call and talk about anything.

This phone number is going to be mostly used for bad runners take.

So we want to play your comments.

We want to.

We want to respond to them in real time.

I want to surprise Brian with some of the crazy stuff that you all say and maybe some of the sensical stuff, too, but to be determined.

So that number is run more.

649.

786, 667.

3,649.

Oh.

Oh, welcome, Brian.

I'm excited, man.

How you doing?

I'm excited.

Yeah, me too.

I can't wait for the.

Can't wait for the hotline to start blowing up.

We.

I know, I know.

We love everyone, but we have a special place in our heart for the haters.

So if you've got some fun, spicy takes on us personally, bring them on.

We welcome.

Oh, please, every and all comment, please.

Call anonymously and just run me through it.

I would not.

I would not.

That would not bother me, and I would love to put it on the air.

Talk about how boring my voice is, all that sort of stuff.

You wouldn't be wrong.

Wouldn't be the worst thing I heard today from my kids, you know.

All right, we're talking about a handful of things today, but probably the banner, the marquee is ambassador culture.

And on one end you've got this thing of ambassador culture that's like, really awesome.

You get to have a deeper connection to a brand that you love.

You get to rep it.

You get discounts, maybe even some free stuff depending on the brand.

It's great.

Okay.

On the other end, though, and you're starting to see this more and more, is maybe some entitlement culture.

And I don't mean this to be critical of anybody other than to say we're seeing maybe an average and a trend and Brian's more, so put it on my radar of people feeling like that with.

Through these ambassador programs that maybe they deserve something.

And so we just want to kind of recognize this whole spectrum and so teeing it up.

Brian, where would you take it from there?

Yeah, I mean, I think first, like you said, it's kind of like it's a culture that it's very well embedded in running.

You know, not just trail running, but road running itself.

Yeah.

And I feel like it's.

I don't know, it's kind of unique, I think, to this adult hobby.

I don't know of any other, you know, industries, you know, that have this heavy culture.

Unless it's kind of like around, like adulting.

Right.

Like, I was trying to think, like, where else is there an ambassador culture?

And it's more probably influencer based, I guess, is where.

What it's called outside of running, you know, you're.

You're a mom, and so you become an influencer for things that are, you know, in the.

In the motherhood realm.

Right.

Or, you know, you're an automotive guy and you become an influencer around things of that nature.

Right.

Or whatever the case is.

Right.

But yeah, it's weird how it's an ambassadorship, you know, type of moniker within.

Within running.

And yeah, I mean I got into the trail running and immediately saw, you know, these ambassador programs and they were super captivating.

You know, the way that I get into sports is all in.

And so I saw that as something that I wanted to obtain for myself.

Right.

Like you come into the sport, you kind of observe the lay of the land and you see, you know, hey, as I start getting more serious with this, like I'd like to become an ambassador and participate and you know, give some feedback to brands and you know, maybe help, you know, with developing product and you have kind of this big wide eyed goal of what that ambassador program would kind of mean, you know.

Yep.

But yeah, I mean once you get into it, like you realize like these ambassadorships, like there's not really a lot of like organization there.

There's not really a lot of engagement between the brand itself and the ambassador.

So we can get into kind of the zoomed in view.

But yeah, I mean I wanted to first kick around like what do you even conceptualize around the turn ambassador as it applies to trail running and running in general?

Yeah, I mean, I think we'll have plenty of talk about, you know, from the running perspective, maybe just a snapshot from the business perspective of what, what's happening there.

It's, it's just like with everything I've talked, talked about with athletes like that ends up just becoming a number on a spreadsheet that the CFO has to approve when it comes to budget time.

So it's not both good and bad.

It's nothing personal to the people who are there.

It's a strategy and it's a, it's a trade off.

So let's, let's just take a, let's say something cost $100 and you get to be an ambassador and what you get in exchange for that is you get a, you get a discount, you get 40% off.

Well, okay, so then $60 is what you're still going to pay for this pair of shoes or whatever it is.

You're still covering cost.

So the brand is going to cover its cost on all of its things, unless they're giving away something for free, but they're counting the cost.

No matter what, they're counting the cost.

And in return you got to perform for them in some way.

So I think that's probably part of the fun.

It feels kind of, you get this kind of professional vibe Feeling in the sport that you love, it's like, hey, this brand acknowledges that they think I can produce value for them.

Now sometimes maybe they think they're better runners than they are or they think it's purely because of their running, when really it's because of their influence.

And it's a, you know, it kind of feels like you feel honored to get the ambassador, you know, check mark or whatever it is.

But the brand is only going to do it if that tactic produces to their values.

And so their values might be to create sales, which I don't know that the ambassador program.

I've never seen someone who's an ambassador of a company where I'm going in and like, purely buying because that person is the ambassador, I will go buy.

Like, if it's Speedland and I've been.

It's on my.

It's been on my mind.

It's been on my mind.

And then I see someone say, hey, use my code and get 10% off.

Well, okay, great.

So the ambassador program fits in to a larger marketing strategy.

And this is my least favorite part about it is that sometimes there's like this thing where they make, they try to make the ambassadors feel really, really special.

And I think it's in a way that can kind of be a bit disrespectful, where it's like, hey, you're great, you're great, you're incredible.

Produce for me.

And it's a trade off and maybe they're aware of it, maybe they're not.

But I think my initial thoughts go there of like, hey, let.

I don't want any ambassador to be confused.

You're not being picked because you're cool.

You're not being picked because you're a great runner.

You're being picked because you're, you're cool and you're a great runner who knows how to market yourself.

So you're a good marketer and you're going to drag them along with you and they're hopefully giving you something in return that's a value like sales or exposure or whatever they're after.

So that's, that's my, that's how I think about ambassadorships.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think.

And you said something interesting, right, about like, you know, the CFO terminology and like, I think for a lot of, like, trail programs, like, I don't even know if it's that big or complex where you're thinking like CFO and like, corporate environment, like, it's, you know, the CFO is probably also potentially like, Your ambassador team manager, like that's how small these companies are.

Right.

And it feels like almost if you want to be a company in the trail space, you have to have an ambassador program.

Like you almost have to check that box to show that you're invested in the community.

So sometimes, you know, it feels like it's, it's almost just kind of like a toss away program that's just there because they don't want to be the brand that doesn't have an ambassador program to be taken seriously, that they're invested in the trail space.

Yeah.

Let's take Death March running company as an example.

I know those guys, I like them.

They just introduced one.

I think they introduced it this year, or I'll say maybe this is the first year I saw it.

And a lot of people I know are super stoked on it and rightfully so.

Again, they get to have this connection with a brand that they like and they feel like represents them.

And I think, you know, Death March has a sense of activation.

So, you know, like if they're going to be at a race, like, I think those guys know how to party and to make people feel like they're, they're a part of something and that's ultimately what they're serving up is the sense of a deeper connection.

But the litmus test for me always is if this and now I'm moving on generally, and I'm not just talking about Death March.

If this didn't produce income, revenue, increased brand equity, would you still be doing this?

And the answer is probably 99% to 100% of time.

The answer is no.

So just remember this is a, this is a business, you know, endeavor on their end.

Hey, don't skip over this.

Just real quick, I need you to take a 60 second survey.

It's in the show notes.

I hope that this podcast is everything you want it to be, but I want to give you a chance to let me know if it's not and how this could be better.

If you're happy with it, if you're unhappy with it, all that.

I just need to know that it'll take less than 60 seconds.

Will you please click on that link and let me know?

Okay, back to the episode.

If, if it produced nothing, they wouldn't do it.

Like most marketing initiatives, things that make you look good, unfortunately, the things that make you that look good, that make you look good publicly are not necessarily the things that are the most good all the time.

The good often.

Let's see, how do I normally say this, you can either appear to do good or you can do actual good.

Unfortunately, it seems like that Venn diagram.

There's almost no crossover, the appearance of good and actual good.

So I think what they're trying to do here is the appearance of good and there is some crossover with actual good because these people feel really, really proud and rightfully so.

I don't want to.

I don't want to shit on that.

Yeah, totally.

I was thinking, too, about, like, you know, the ambassador population within people who participate or identify as Trail Runners.

Like, it's still a very small minority.

You know, like, it does feel like they're everywhere, but I don't think it's, you know, anywhere close to, like, 25% of trail runners are involved in an ambassador program.

You know, it'd be interesting, know where that stat line actually falls.

But that's just kind of the sense I get of it is, you know, there's far fewer ambassadors than we probably think, but because they activate and are posting frequently and are the most involved on social media.

Right.

Like that personality type or that person, you know.

Yeah.

It makes it look like a larger group than it is.

So.

Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of experience with ambassador programs.

So, like, I was starting to think, like, you know, what are the personality types that are drawn to the program?

And, you know, does that itself kind of create maybe some of the toxic culture or some of the toxic, you know, side effects that we see of it sometimes?

Because I figure, like, you know, I work in a corporate environment, and you've got, like, you know, employee councils, right, where these, you know, employees get together and they create, you know, spirit events and, you know, do things for, you know, associate celebration week and different things.

Right.

They're like an organized committee members, and they volunteer to do that just because they want to be involved in the company and, you know, create a great work environment for everyone.

I see that kind of like being some of the people who are drawn to ambassadors.

Right.

Like, they want to be involved.

You know, they.

They lean into their community and they want to create, you know, this fellowship with others.

Right.

And then I definitely think there's others who get involved because they see it as, like, accreditation.

You know, it validates them.

You know, it makes them feel more of a, you know, committed trail runner if they have, you know, yes.

The right ambassador links on their profile.

You know, you know, that's another personality type that gets into it.

And then I think there's third.

It's just kind of like a natural evolution.

I Feel like in.

Trail running is like, you know, it's an addictive sport.

Like we're.

Yeah.

The training itself takes a long time.

The podcast is, you know, part of the scene.

Like there.

There's a lot to engage in and it feels like, yeah, that's like a natural evolution.

Like, you get into the sport, you get curious, you pick up an ambassadorship, you know, you.

You start.

You start a podcast, you become a race director.

You know what I mean?

Like, this is kind of the.

Yeah, yeah.

Of the manic trail runner, basically.

So I see it, you know, those three buckets, it's all natural.

But you know what, what do you think?

I think about what's starting to come to mind is when it backfires because someone posted, someone who listens to the show regularly.

I didn't chat with him that I was going to bring him up, so I don't want to say his name, but tagged me on something.

And, you know, regardless of when a brand doesn't pick someone, let's say a brand puts up.

These are the five things we're looking for.

They're objective.

You need to have X number of followers.

You need to run X number of races per year, whatever, whatever, whatever.

And you objectively check the box on all of them, and then you get rejected.

Well, I mean, you got for even if it, you know, and I tend to be sympathetic to brands because I've lived on the side of owning businesses, but it backfires.

And so you had this opportunity to build really great fondness and a deep relationship.

I mean, you're, you know, you know, talking about building a brand and you.

And you miss it and it backfires so much.

So to where now you've actually lost that person who pays full price for your gear.

And I know that that's rare, but.

But it's.

Again, we're talking about counting the cost.

Like that's an expensive mistake because someone who's going to apply for the ambassadorship is probably exceeds your average lifetime value of a customer.

Let's say the average lifetime value for Speedland is $1,000.

And then you piss off someone who's above average, they're going to spend 2,500 throughout their life.

Now you've just lost all of that.

And, you know, I feel like I hear that time to.

Time enough to where maybe it's worth noting that it backfires.

Have any of your ambassador relationships ever backfired?

No, nothing that comes to mind immediately.

Yeah, I think.

Well, I mean, no, nothing.

Nothing in that lane.

But like, the Thing is just that like they were always unfulfilling basically.

Right.

Like whether I had too big expectations of what it meant, you know, and then I get into it and I see it for what it was and it's like, you know, this, it's just kind of like it, you know, it cools off basically.

And I think that's why they accept so many people into the program is like they know it's a numbers game, right?

Like it's low cost, just be like, you're approved, you're on the roster and then if we can get a couple different things out of you throughout the year, like it's just, you know, you're just churning the leads basically in like a sales culture.

Right.

You're just like, I'm out there cold calling, you know, with whatever post and social media mentions I make or at a race in person.

Yeah, it's just keeping the name out there.

It's low cost but like there wasn't really much ever that I was bringing to them tangible, you know, and that's kind of where my interest then waned and it just, yeah, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't fulfilling anymore.

As you say that I realized I can answer my own question.

I did try ambassadorship once and it was with Borderlands generally with brands.

I tried to not, I don't want to do the, I want to have a brand relationship with them, not a performance relationship with them to generate sales.

But there was one, I was like, hey, I really like this brand and so I'll do this.

It was an ambassador like program and you know, they sell it as like the screening process is really difficult.

I didn't care and I don't know if I even believe it.

But it royally backfired because they're also like a very green conscious company and I had just bought some of their products recently and then they brought me on as an ambassador relationship.

And with the ambassador relationship it was we have no order minimums, we don't want to have waste of any kind.

So we're not going to just send you product unless you need it.

So this is a needs based ambassadorship.

So as you need something, you just make your case for it and we will send it to you.

And so I signed it and then I was like, hey, I want this and I want this.

And they said, we looked in our system and it looks like you just bought something recently.

So we don't agree with your case for it and so we're not going to send you anything.

And I was like, wait a second, so you.

But you're sending me, like, here's what.

You made a post.

You want me to make this announcement and this thing on your behalf, but you're not going to see anything.

And they said, yeah, it's needs based.

You don't need it.

It's like, we're done.

It was.

And I hope what they interpreted you needed not based on your needs.

Yes.

And so a lot of people, I mean, there's a lot of notable people who work with this company on this level.

And I just think, oh, man, I hope to run into this guy in person one time just to be like, hey, you did go listen to this podcast.

Because I actually just made the case.

You actually hurt.

Not only will I never talk about your brand, I will never buy from it ever again.

There is no chance, in fact, I will take delight out of buying from your competitor even when I don't need it, if I can afford it.

So, yeah, that does backfire.

There it is, backfiring.

Yeah.

And I think that's kind of like the message here.

Like when we're talking about, like, what messages are we trying to send or, you know, what are we trying to raise up to create change.

It's like message to the brand.

Like, if you're going to have an ambassador program, like, be, like, be thoughtful, right?

Like, you know, set clear communications up front, I guess.

Or like, you know, you know, like, I don't know, I don't know how many times the ambassador liaison, you know, that position has the highest turnover I've ever seen before.

I mean, within a calendar year, some of these times you've had like two or three different people come.

Oh, good point.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, you don't create any sort of like, rapport, you know, you're constantly trying to do a new introduction call.

Things never really get off the ground.

And so then another, another year goes by and again, there's nothing actually structured within the program.

It's just a bunch of people out dropping different, you know, social media posts.

And every quarter you get a delivery of goodies, which again, like, yeah, trail running is expensive.

Like, so let's be honest, there's also a person who's getting into ambassadorship because it helps you participate in this.

Great point, you know, at the 100 mile level with a little bit of supplemental help from the brand itself.

So, yeah, I mean, yeah, both people are kind of leeching off each other and yeah, it could be elevated, you know, and there are ambassador programs that do have good structure and good organization.

But more times than not, I don't think they're.

They're like that.

That's a generous take.

I like that take to say, okay, if it's mutually beneficial.

Like, okay, if the expectations are low, unfortunately, maybe that's the culture.

Like, hey, you say that this is what you're going to do.

Brand A, you're going to do this.

Well, on average, brands do about 70% of it, but I don't care.

I.

I get 60% off and I'm trying to run five, 100 milers in the next year.

That's actually, I can count the cost on my end.

You know, that's going to be $2,000 that you just saved me because I got it.

It's going to take me $10,000 to make this happen.

Between travel and this and that, you know, whatever.

I'm just making up numbers.

But I like that take to say that it's a, It's a.

Someone who's got a day job and other stuff.

It's a way to just lower their overall cost in the sport.

So on that level, it's leeching symbiotic in a good way.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And then, like, we were talking on, like, I don't think anybody who's, you know, in these type of amateur ambassador programs should ever feel like it's their identity.

Like, the only way that you can really take offense to the point of publicly denouncing a decision that a brand's made on the ambassador program and your involvement is if you took that ambassador role as your identity and now you're feeling personally judged or personally slighted.

And it's like, that's, that's not fair.

That's not what this is about.

And you're, you're misrepresenting, like, you know, the brand.

Like, unless the brand comes out and directly says, like, you know, these immutable characteristics we don't find appealing.

Right.

Like, you're a man, we don't want you.

Like, like, they don't say that.

Right.

So, like, don't be offended.

Like, don't feel entitled to anything.

Like, just roll with it.

If you've gotten into the program, great.

But, like, it didn't make you a better runner.

It didn't make you a better person.

So try not to, you know, think too highly or, you know, get too proud of yourself for the ambassador moniker that you get to claim.

Yeah.

With.

With Borderlands.

I did a version of it last year, so it was the.

But I was really trying to provide like value and wanted to try and really was hoping to over deliver but it's hard to manage.

And it was industry trail teams.

And I built, I created like 75 trail running teams.

And because my goal was not to just say you are ambassadors of Borderlands, I was really trying to say, hey, will you do this?

If you're looking for someone to run with, I can help you connect with people in your city.

It's hard to connect with people to run with if you're looking for somebody.

So I'll use my audience to find everyone who's looking for someone in your area.

And it went really well, but it was very Busy.

I created 75 teams in 65 cities.

650 people and then we ended up getting a wait list of about 100 who were in rural parts of America or parts where I didn't have other teams.

And so they just went into their own little huddle of in this and chatting with one another.

This was all eventually what turned into the app that I'm building Wilder.

And so in exchange I was like, hey, will you put Borderlands in your bio on Instagram?

And as I make this connection or that you're on the industry trail team.

Yeah.

And for me I wanted people that was just a way, a marketing tactic.

In exchange for the amount of time that took, which is like 25 hours at one point a week, in exchange for that, would you just, you know, let the world know that you're a part of this?

And so there's that, there's that trade off piece.

And I think at first I was over delivering and then who ran out of Steam and that was the reason the app came from that is because it's like, hey, there's demand here.

I need to, I want to try and turn this into a product so it doesn't take just one person constantly chatting in 75, you know, run clubs.

So again we can go back to this place of there's a, there's a good heart behind it, you know, sometimes, but it's, they're very hard to manage and they're nearly impossible to from an accountability standpoint.

There's a lot of software out there that's like here, you know, manage your ambassador programs.

Because if you have to post once a month and you have to do this once a month and this once a month and you've got a thousand people, it's nearly impossible.

So you're really just throwing it out into the ether and hoping that these people accomplish what they say.

They will in exchange for what you give them.

So it's, it's hard.

It's a mess.

And honestly, as a business tactic, if that cost you, you know, $65,000 in payroll to have someone manage it, plus $60,000 in product a year, 120,000.

My question becomes, can you spend 110,000 and get more bang for your buck?

I think the answer is yes.

But you know that's going to differ across brands.

Yeah, exactly.

And that's what you think.

Right.

About your Venn diagram of like there's the things that you can say that make you appear like you're doing good and then there's the things that you can do that make you an actual company that's doing good.

And like, they don't, they don't work cohesively together in the ambassador program because it's, it's truly just a numbers game.

Like the brand does better if they have 500ambassadors that they can invest $1 into, probably get a bigger ROI on that $500 than if they were to have, you know, 50ambassadors.

But they were going to have, you know what a ten dollar investment for those fifty and really pour into those fifty with a better, you know, cohesiveness.

It would have, you know, better leadership from the brand, better engagement.

Yeah, right.

Like they're not a brand.

I see that's really moving in that direction.

The ambassador programs are just continually growing.

Like the numbers on some of these with the big brands, like, you know, I don't know, tailwind or what else is there out there that have big ones?

You know, it's basically all your gels.

I think because people consume gel on such a high rate that like into a nutrition company with gels or liquid nutrition, like, you know, they all have large, large platforms.

You know, Orange mud is out there.

Like they're one of the older brands.

I know they've got thousands, you know, like so.

Yeah.

And they don't ever really.

They don't.

It's not like the roster ever turns over once you're in.

It's.

You're basically in.

Yeah.

As long as you keep applying.

And so these things just exponentially continue to grow as long as you stay responsive to emails and you know.

Right.

Whatever.

Sign up on time.

Yeah.

Okay, an aha moment then from what you just said, if then you're right.

I see the nutrition brands a lot too.

So just the eye test and that makes sense because I think with nutrition, their cost of goods without getting too much into like business jargon for every $1, let's say they sell it for $1.

I bet they're paying about 10 cents.

So I think their 10% is their goods cost and maybe let's say 20%.

So basically multiply what they pay for it times five and that's what it goes out into the world.

Compare that to apparel.

Sometimes they're multiplying at times 2 or like 2.5.

So it costs on a hundred dollars.

So satisfy, they're selling it for 300, that means it's costing them 100 per unit.

And they may be getting more margin.

But point being nutrition.

And that's why you see it so much with supplements.

For some reason, people's willingness to pay is so high for supplements.

So something that costs the supplement company 5 cents to make, they can sell it for, you know, 50 bucks.

So there's all this margin.

So you see, you know, them spending that money everywhere.

One time I had the CFO of Revlon come to a thing that I was doing with other entrepreneurs and he said, yeah, the liquid in the bottle cost us 50 cents, the bottle itself cost us $2, the box costs us $3 and we sell it for 100.

So I think probably nutrition is very much in similar economics.

And so that's why it makes more sense that they're out there.

I think apparel companies, it's a very expensive, very expensive thing to have a company like that thinking death march specifically.

Since I've already talked about them, I don't know that they're having custom cut shirts.

So they're using blanks and they're screen printing really awesome stuff on it.

Their costs are high relative to let's say a path projects who's doing custom cut and sew, but they're also ordering 20,000 units of a shirt.

So their cost is low.

So I mean it's an expensive game.

So now I go back to as a, as a business owner, would I rather spend if I was Speedland, but I spent a hundred thousand on my ambassador program or a hundred thousand on something else.

I would really be looking hard at something else because of how hard ambassador programs are.

Right?

Yeah, I was going to bring this up too because I think kind of the ambassador culture is just, it's, it's basically just like the elite level kind of diluted down.

Right.

Like we talk a lot about how like in running or I've said it before, you know, the product is the gear not running itself.

And so like, yeah, the ambassador program just kind of fits right in with that as far as, like, you know, it takes a lot of consuming goods to participate in running.

The amount of gels you go through, the amount of socks, shoes, clothes.

Right.

You name it.

Like, there's so many opportunities for brands to engage.

Right?

And then, like, you.

You kind of want to emulate, you know, what the pros are doing.

You know, you see how they're engaging with brands.

And I showed you this Courtney post.

You know, it was a cool post.

You talked about, you know, being fascinated with the distance and, you know, how the miles and the big numbers were scary early on.

And, you know, it's a.

It's a.

It's a throwback post showing all of her, like, pictures before.

Yeah.

Sponsored and was really anybody on anybody's radar.

Right.

And then you click on the Instagram and you see all the tags on it.

Solomon.

Solomon running the Feed Me Tailwind Nutrition Sumto in Jinji we are Sun God Kodiak takes Lucky Trail Running Poles Petzl Running squirrel World's nut butter.

That's on.

Like, so, like, if the pros are doing it, like, then I'm gonna try and get mine, too.

Right?

So, like, there's no right.

I guess let's just go ahead and, you know, slap as many tags as we can get and consume as much as we can.

And, you know, it's just, like, crazy how much consumerism is in running while also trying to greenwash everything and to reduce your carbon footprint.

Like, I get it, like, it doesn't take any sort of emissions to put the tag on there, but if I were to go buy all those products.

Yeah.

Shipped to my house and manufactured somewhere.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, I think.

Have we said it here before or somewhere else?

Like, recently?

You know, we used to say I love running because let's, like, just put on some shoes and go for a run.

I mean, who does that anymore?

Who just puts on some shoes and goes for a run anymore?

You put on your shoes, you put on your nice shorts, you put on your.

I mean, my socks used to never match, and now they match when I run.

And a nice shirt and then a pack and then a 500 watch and then, you know, this killer satisfy running cult member hat that's expensive, you know, all this sort of stuff and no judgment on it, but it's no longer just a pair of shoes, you know, and going for a run.

No, and I love it, dude.

It's hard, you know, Like, I.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm not on.

I love it.

No, and.

Exactly.

And like, you know, the minute you turn on a podcast or start contributing to a podcast, you're going to be right.

Like, you're going to say things that are, like, critical of something that you're guilty of and, like, yeah, guilty.

Like, you know, I love the consumer part of this.

This sport, you know, but, you know, it's.

It's always good to just kind of, you know, get things out and flush them out and see if there's others out there that kind of were curious about the ambassador program or always, you know, kind of got annoyed during the.

The ambassador renewal season when everybody's dropping.

They're proud to be ambassador of, you know, posts.

Right.

And everything else.

Yeah.

So it's all.

Yeah.

Every time I see one of those, and maybe it's because I come from a business owner perspective.

I just think, man, good job to that business.

I don't know how this came on my radar at one point, but I remember thinking this way in junior high, seeing kids wear Abercrombie and Fitch shirts.

Says Abercrombie and Fitch.

Really big.

I, you know, maybe my jealousy was because I secretly wished I could have afforded one.

And, you know, my girlfriend's mom bought me one once.

But you're just wearing a red shirt that says Abercrombie and Fitch, like, huge.

Do you realize how big of a win that is for them?

Yeah.

Because you paid for it.

Full price, 10x what they paid for it, and then you wear it, then you're a billboard.

So it's like, free.

Not only is it free advertising, you're paying them to advertise for their brand.

That's a good job.

Yeah.

I mean, that's what I mean.

It's hard to break something that's been institutionalized into your brain since you were a kid.

Yeah.

You know, whether it's, you know, you want the jersey of your sports star or, you know, you've got celebrities that you, you know, admired or, you know.

Yeah.

Music, you know, whatever the case is, like, you always want to own it for yourself and, you know, shout to the world that, you know, this is.

This is who I am, and this is who I represent.

With the way that you present yourself.

I know you're a big fan of Norda shoes.

Do you.

Do they have an ambassador program?

Are you part of that?

Like, what has experience been like, there?

It seems like anyone who's a Norda fan is a Norda like, evangelist.

And not in an obnoxious way, either.

It's actually anyone I can think of.

My friend Matt.

Matt Burbach, anybody Like, they just want to tell you about him, but it's not like, you know, vegans who want to tell you that they're vegan.

Right.

It's just like, I like the shoe and you should absolutely give it a try.

And is that you.

Are you in that camp like, you big Nordic guy?

Oh, man.

Yeah.

I love Norda.

So, no, they don't have any sort of like formal ambassador program, you know, and they.

They were slow to introduce like an actual, you know, elite trail team.

You know, so it was called 665.

Before, you know, what does that mean?

It was, it was like a.

It was like a latitude.

Latitude or longitude location.

It was, you know, again, like, it's not.

This is what I love about Norda.

They're.

They're not going to be obnoxiously obvious.

Right.

It's not going to be like, nor the, you know, elite trail running team.

Right.

That's not what.

That's not the ethos of the brand as elite.

Like, it's Norda for everyone.

And so how they introduced a team of professional, you know, talented trail runners, they did it in a.

In an artful way, in a tasteful way.

665, you know, it was.

There was always.

There's always something mysterious and curious about the way North.

Yeah.

Presents themselves.

The way that they campaign or launch campaigns with new shoes or colorways or collabs.

Right.

It was, it was a thing that I wanted to be a part of.

Right.

So when they launched early on in 2021.

Yeah, I was just always reaching out and messaging them.

And it's a small group of four people.

The owner.

Yeah.

You know, the.

The brand developer, you know, all of them, like, or they were accessible.

So, yeah, I was able to.

That's.

Oh, that's important.

Yeah, I was able to talk with them and yeah.

Just share my passion for the shoe.

And yeah, I mean, they, they had sent me some stuff and, you know, leaned back into supporting me and, you know, so, yeah, it was a great relationship there and it was just totally organic and, you know, all based on their goodwill and, you know, seeing something in me that they.

They wanted to support.

So, yeah, I think everybody who engages with.

With Norda in some way, whether it's just looking at their, Their product online and their social medias and, and the, The.

The writing, you know, behind some of the articles, like.

Yeah, it becomes like a natural thing that you want to engage in and share with everyone.

Yeah.

Different.

Yeah.

I mean, this wasn't my goal, but look at the outcome of how they've chosen to operate.

You just said a dozen nice things about them, none of which were how good the shoes feel on your feet.

You know what I mean?

I'm not saying they don't.

Right.

But because they were accessible because of all these things.

Like this is the goal of an ambassador program is that someone given a mic and an audience that that person would talk about that brand and give them that notoriety.

So that's.

So my point is that ambassadorship is a tactic.

Norda didn't do that.

They chose another route which was intentional and it sounds like they made you feel like a million bucks.

They gave you their attention, they did this, they did, you know, a number of different things.

And they're getting the exact same outcome as an ambassador program from you.

So I think that's an interesting observation.

Just to see the impact that they had on you.

And in return you are giving you the reason.

I mean, I had to ask, I thought for sure your answer was going to be yes, that you were an ambassador, that they had a program because of how much you like them and how much you, you know, you'll post about them if a new pair comes out or you'll repost their stuff.

So they're getting that dream outcome and they're coming about it a different way, A more manageable way, it sounds like.

But maybe also there's a heavy human resource cost to be on top of social and on top of emails.

Right.

Yeah, no, I think, I think they.

I know, I mean, yeah, I'm biased in the sense that like, you know, I do genuinely like the brand and the people, you know, that the company.

But yeah, I think they nailed it.

You know, as far as like, how does a boutique running trail shoe brand from Canada, you know, launch in 2021, you know, come out of the pandemic and then have distribution globally into all markets.

Yeah.

Asia, Europe, the United States, Canada, where they're from.

Right.

Like, I think what they've done is like, you know, fascinating from a technical standpoint.

Their shoes, high quality, they're coming out with the 005, which is next level quality.

And then from a business standpoint, just seeing, you know, how they were able to spread so quickly, you know, they came out the same time some other high end shoes came out.

And if you look to see the market penetration, it's crazy, you know, how much further they've expanded with their shoe.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, and with the current competition, I think one of our next episodes with Taylor Bodine is Going to be Norda, at least Nordo in combination of some of the other newer brands.

Yeah.

And it's wild.

It's wild to see because it's one thing to buy blank shirts and screen print on them, it's another to launch a shoe company.

I mean, it's the closest.

It's the closest thing in the trail world to Elon starting a car company.

Like, disregard how you feel about the person.

A freaking car company.

Shoes are not just, hey, I've got an idea.

There's a significant strain on capital to buy shoes and the number of sizes you have to buy and the way you have to get inventory.

Right.

And all that sort of stuff.

So for.

So for.

In order to have supply chain figured out and customer service figured out on day one, it sounds like is.

Yeah, that's.

That's special.

Yeah.

And I'm.

I'm pretty sure, you know, Taylor's met the founder and co founders, the husband and wife, Nick and Willa.

So I would surprise if he didn't also lead with.

They're just freaking awesome people.

You know, like if.

I would be shocked if.

Yeah, that wasn't one of the first things when Nordic gets brought up is just how, you know, passionate and relatable and humble the team comes across.

And yeah, I mean, they have decades of experience in footwear, you know, so they designing footwear, you know, as a career.

And then eventually I think just got frustrated that they were passionate trail runners up in the Canadian wilderness and never had a shoe that really felt like it delivered.

And so, yeah, they took the pandemic as an opportunity to go all in on it and they signed the 001 and I guess never looked back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, so their approach compared to the normal ambassador approach, the.

The thing that, that back.

Back to.

There's.

You get to feel like you're you.

You get to feel like Courtney when she has all those things back to what you said, I think that's powerful.

Right.

So for me, if it was gonna, you know, I don't.

Again, I don't want to mention another brand that I actually did it with, but if it's, you know, Apple Phones, you know, like, I.

I get to publicly say I'm affiliated with them.

I feel very cool.

I feel like I'm in the part of the community.

They're not necessarily saying that, but they're communicating.

It just feels cool, it feels nice.

It feels like you belong.

And I think that element of belonging, however, we can accomplish that within trail running because we are not Gatekeepers.

We want these gates to be not only held open, but broken down.

Anything that makes you feel like you connect and belong here, you know, on the positive sense, the more the merrier.

Absolutely.

So, yeah, that was cool.

You know, we got to go down a little.

Little Nord.

A tangent there.

Yeah.

I haven't talked about them at all recently, so, yeah, always super fun to support them and throw them some appreciation.

But, yeah, I mean, so the one kind of last thing that I wanted to touch on with the ambassador, you know, program or culture, is kind of the Ira, the irony, right, of, like, ambassadorships kind of, like celebrated, and everybody lifts each other up.

And, you know, I think we all kind of appreciate, you know, the every man, the every woman that kind of, like, gets their shine with the ambassadorship.

Right.

But, like, I would think the goal would be that, like, you become such a good ambassador that you then evolve into an influencer.

And the minute you become an influencer, you're demonized.

We hate you.

You're annoying me.

Really.

The is just the best version of an ambassador.

You're doing it with an actual tangible ROI on the company that in a business perspective, you can go to them and say, look, no, I'm worth more.

Your products and goods.

Now, like, the influencer is the elite, professional trail runner version of the ambassador, Right?

So, like, yes.

Why do we turn quickly on influencers when they're just the ambassador at a level that they can actually be compensated as?

Their identity is as big as the brand.

They become so good at being an ambassador that their name is as important as the brand they're representing.

Does that make sense?

Gosh, this is.

Yes, it 100% makes sense.

Okay, so I think about.

I'm watching Sprint season two right now, and it's delivering.

It's so good.

But Noah Lyles is an animated character.

And when I had Marley on last week, Dickinson, I was like, hey, do you know, like, I'm curious, what is the contract size?

What kind of money is Lyle's making?

And he said, I don't know the exact, but he said it's going to be between 5 and $10 million a year.

It's like, okay, you know, there's eyes and ears there.

That makes me want to do some content in that space because there's people watching, paying attention, spending money.

But then the other main character that they're going with is Curly.

I can't remember his first name.

Last name.

Curly.

Yeah.

Craig or.

I don't know.

I wanted to say Todd, but then I think, am I thinking of Todd Gurley.

I'm thinking of the football player.

So anyways.

Yes.

Okay.

And Curly went to South Plains College, where I went.

It's a bluegrass music school that had a track program that he was at and apparently dominated.

And in that, Curly is saying, you know, I'm not like Lyles.

I'm not.

I'm not a big, colorful animated character.

That's not what we're here for.

I'm here to run.

And so the discussion with my wife is.

Because this is always.

What I'm talking about now is like, but if Curly was a little bit more animated, he'd be getting five to $10 million a year.

And so the.

To your point of.

Because Lyles is influencing people and creating value for Adidas because of that loud personality.

So, no, you're not about.

It's not about running.

It's still.

It's still.

Unfortunately, and I hate to be such a pessimist about this, it's still about selling gear.

You're running Jim Wamsley.

You're good running is a.

You're getting paid to do that because you sell gear.

That's why they give you the money.

So when someone graduates from ambassador to influencer.

I can't.

Other than maybe it's.

They're annoying to be around when they're getting their footage.

I get that.

I am that Sometimes you bring up a really great point that we.

Then all of a sudden, I don't know, do they sell out?

What do you.

What's the word?

What am I looking for?

Well, and this is going to be the controversial take of the episode here.

To me, the.

The.

The.

The influencers that ascend are the ones that are most aesthetically influenced.

You know, the ones that are the most aesthetically appealing.

Take that for what it is.

Right.

They're either.

Yeah.

Men who are physically fit.

Yeah.

You know, or women who are attractive and physically fit.

Like, there are some certain things that just are similar in the top end of fitness.

Influencers running, you know, right across the board.

Right.

And those are the ones that get villainized the most, I think, because they have attributes that are harder to achieve for somebody, it's going to take a different type of work or genetics to.

And they feel.

I think people feel like they're casting judgment on them, thinking that that influencer is there solely because of their good looks or tone.

Right.

And I can't ever do that.

So I got to attack that.

To make it feel like it's a negative is my judgment of why that happens.

Right.

But simultaneously, what can happen is somebody can ascend to be the same level of.

As an influencer.

And if you have a body composition or something else that you bring to the table that's on the polar opposite of end, you know, that we're trying to lift up and give visibility to, they're fine.

So if all, if all things are equal for the two.

Right.

This one gets the negative criticism for being the aesthetically or attractive person or having the qualities that are harder to obtain for everyone.

The other person who's being lifted up as kind of like an underserved representation of the community.

Right.

We all know that person will never get villainized, even though they might have millions of followers and be promoted just as heavily.

So I can't make those two line up.

Right.

Like they're doing the same amount of influencing.

They're getting rewarded with some of the same amount of perks, but the public response is wildly different.

Yeah, yeah, I track with you on that.

And then I also think, yeah, I mean, I don't know that it's also, it's like maybe another way to say it.

It's just, if not exactly what you said, it's pure jealousy to some degree.

You know, you see someone putting out really killer content, let's say Matt Johnson.

I was just going to go there.

Yeah, yeah.

He's so good at content, you see.

And now I'm, I'm.

Am I his target demo?

I don't.

I'm not entirely in certain things, but as like pure.

Like, I love seeing that dude succeed and I love the way he talks.

It's because I wish I was.

I wish I had that confidence.

So I see that and I think, man, I want to.

I'd love to be like that.

And because I don't think he's.

He doesn't hurt anybody with his arrogance.

He really actually sounds, rather than hurt anybody with his arrogance, he benefits himself with that arrogance and then encourages other people to have some self respect.

And so.

But I think someone else could look at that and be like, yeah, I could do that though.

I could do that.

It's not that hard.

Or maybe it's like he just got lucky, like you were saying.

Like, it's, you know, it's nothing special about them.

It's just that they got lucky.

So, yeah, I think on some levels, it's like, was I a Green Day fan when they put out 10,039, smoothed out slappy hours and Kerplunk?

No.

But when they released Dookie in 94, I became a fan and then all of a sudden acted like they sold out because, as with the punk Rock Way in 1994, and all of a sudden I acted like I was a fan during 10,039 smooth out slappy hours when I wasn't.

So on some levels, we just.

It's hard for us to celebrate someone else.

Maybe that's what I reduce it down to.

It's hard to be happy for someone else when we really wish it was when we would rather be happy for ourselves.

Right.

But it's weird because again, the influencers who are received as the most annoying also seem to be penetrating the market.

The largest as well.

Right.

I don't know what the ratio is, but it seems like it's like, I don't know, 5 to 1, 10 to 1 of like, people who are like, positive.

Giving them positive reinforcement.

Right.

Celebrate.

Yeah.

The identity of who they are, you know, like.

Yeah.

So they get the most amount of hate, but they clearly get the most amount of love.

And.

Yeah.

I just don't know.

I see it as like some sort of matrix of annoying to popularity.

You know, there's some point at which you become too annoying to be popular, but to be popular to some degree, you have to be, you know, quote unquote annoying.

Willing to speak out at any given time and capture the content when the content is there to be captured, no matter who's around you.

So there's like an.

There's a.

Some sort of like parabola or something like this where you're at your.

There's like a place where annoyance meets popularity.

And that's like the dream for me, that point.

I'm.

I'm really unwilling to be annoying.

I don't want to be even looked at in public.

And so my point's too low to be really, really popular.

But someone like Matt doesn't care or he's got the personality type that likes to be seen.

That's.

Some people look at that and judge that when really that's just a personality type.

Oh, yeah.

It should be.

It should be celebrated.

That's a huge piece of the pie, is.

Yeah.

The willingness and the desire to want to be seen.

Like the comfort and always being available to somebody for criticism is a huge character that it requires to become like that.

I totally agree.

But yeah, I mean, I think.

I think.

I don't know, like, it's not there quite with trail.

You know, you guys talked about.

Was it Matt Choi, the New York road marathoner, Right.

Who, you know, crossed some lines and, you know, had to pay some consequences for it.

And, you know, I'm sure it was a learning experience for everyone to kind of know where the line's at right now and then how to create, you know, a better environment where these influencers can participate because they are a net good for the sport and clearly race because of the visibility and eyes they capture.

So they just have to work together to better prevent any sort of, like, negative consequence for people who don't appreciate that.

Right.

But, like, it's a cautionary tale for trail running because I think there's maybe 50% of trail runners who think I'm right here for trail running because I don't want any of that crap.

And they maybe assume that, like, that is the whole makeup of trail running.

But I think there's another half of trail running that are like, I want that.

You know what I mean?

Like, I want to bring.

Yeah, pro running.

I want the visibility, I want the content, I want the influencer capture.

So, like, yes, we're kind of in an interesting space here where, yeah, we're starting to see it take, you know, a bigger.

It's starting to infiltrate the sport and you're seeing some people immediately trying to shut it out and then others are wanting to welcome it more.

Like, Leadville is a good case we talked about.

I think lead.

Leadville's like the case study for the influencer.

Yes.

Infiltration into trail running.

I think with that, like, yes, we could.

This sport would be fine without content creators.

Sure, whatever.

Content.

Well, I'm sitting here in Paris, far from mountains or deserts that I love so much, man, to see Matt Johnson run across Texas and all that footage.

Oh, I loved it.

You know, like, to see Joe Corcion want to, you know, crush javelina and get 10th.

I needed to see that content, you know, like, that stuff is super, super valuable.

Matt Choi, I don't know the guy, but I would, I would lead the, the charge to get New York Marathon to put him back in next year with now at this point, with New York Marathon apologizing to him, you know, like a lifetime ban is just.

It serves.

Serves nobody.

No.

And so that, to me, maybe that's my hottest take of the thing.

I think New York Marathon knows Matt Choi and apology now at this point because they went too far.

The way I, the way I said it with Marley, it's like New York Marathon did the same thing I do to my 5 year old when I'm stressed.

I, you know, I take away something he loves for a week because he did One thing, and I'm gonna show him.

And then it's like, I calm down.

It's like, no, but you can't do it the rest of today.

But a week was too much.

Like, that's what I'm waiting for.

New York marathon to come back to do.

Yeah.

But I think it was fine.

You know, I think the lifetime ban created more conversation.

So, again, if the goal influencer and the race is to get the story to live on longer than the race itself, we're still talking about it now.

And then, you know, they can always retract it later and make news again.

So, like, absolutely.

In this sick, disgusting world of news cycle, like, they.

They're playing.

They're playing it.

They're playing it the best.

If you were looking at it from, like, you know, this kind of 4D chess level where you're making moves and in future, influence.

Yeah.

And just a reminder to everyone, run more.

649.

Text us or call us if you.

And let us know what you think about anything that we've said so far.

Because I really don't want to miss out, especially if we've said anything to this point.

7, 8, 6, 6, 6, 7, 3, 6, 4, 9.

I've always wanted to be on the radio, and that just makes me feel like I'm on the radio.

I love it.

Anyway, tell me what you think about my Matt Choi take.

I want to hear it.

Yeah, it works.

So I left.

I left a test message this morning.

Did my best impersonation just to, you know, make the first message.

I thought it was the real Debone, you know.

Hey, fam, so.

Oh, man.

Any other quick hits?

I know there were some other news you were talking about.

Maybe we want to follow that as we.

Yeah, yeah.

Here's one that just made me laugh.

Marley Dickinson tweeted, posted on X, whatever it's called.

He was reported on LinkedIn for misinformation.

And, you know, at the same time that he was reported for misinformation, you know how LinkedIn can show you who's been looking at your profile?

It's a.

It's one of my least favorite things about LinkedIn.

But at the same time that he has reported and he posted the picture, Camille Herron was, like, just, like, moments ago on his LinkedIn.

So do with that what you will.

I reached out, I was like, hey, are you gonna do.

Is there anything more to that?

And he's like, no, it's just a funny tweet.

There's nothing else that's going to be happening there.

But yeah, I thought old habits die hard, clearly.

Right.

I mean, it's fair to, you know, there's no more benefit of the doubt.

Like I will happily with that as that is fact based reporting.

Yeah.

You know, but I don't know, it's so disappointing though.

Like, you know, I don't want to.

You don't want to pile on somebody when they're already down.

But like, God, yeah, you're your own worst enemy like at that point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What are you doing?

Self sabotage.

That's why the Internet's the devil, man.

Just.

Yeah, we didn't have the Internet then, we'd be a lot better off.

Okay, here's another thing I was just given the green light to announce today.

I'm going to do a group run with Billy Yang in Salt Lake City on January 18th.

I think you should try and be there for it.

No pressure.

It's a 5K.

We're going to do the Michael Bolton final mile there just for fun.

I don't think Billy knows that yet.

But then we're going to do a live recording of the podcast and a live Q and A with Billy.

And I can't tell you how excited I am about that.

So I'm going to, I'm going to.

I'm going to be in Salt Lake City for less than 48 hours to, to pull that off.

So I'll fly in, we'll run, we'll do the live podcast, we'll do the Q and A, I'll go back to sleep and then fly back to Paris.

But you know, if all of a sudden you see the programming on that and we release it and you get pumped, you let me know.

I don't have a place for you to stay.

I don't have a place to stay there anymore.

But you know, it'd be fun.

That's awesome.

Is this going to be around the race or is this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, thank you.

Yes.

Path Projects is a sponsor of the race and they're the sponsor of the, of this run, helping make it happen.

Billy works very closely with them.

And so what we're going to do to get into the live podcast and the Q and A venue hasn't been selected.

I've narrowed.

We've got it narrowed down but haven't selected it.

Um, if you're signed up for the race, you get in free and you get in, you know when registration be open to you exclusively for a week.

And then after that it's people who've ran Our race historically will be able to get in, and then if there's any leftover, then we'll open it to the general public and it'll be for free to the general public as well.

But it's highly likely that we won't.

There won't be enough seats.

I think it may be 100 seats.

So.

Awesome.

Yeah, man.

I mean, let's talk about my, like, a dream come true for me.

That's.

That's incredible.

Yeah.

I mean, you kind of touched on it with the comment you made in the last 100 episode, which I wanted to celebrate.

You know, congratulations.

I mean, 100 episodes.

Thanks.

Is certainly a feather in the cap.

And, you know.

Yeah.

Thank you for a period of time, too.

Just shows how, you know, passionate, how much fun you've.

You've had doing this with the podcast.

And I mean, yeah, for anybody to be criticizing how you're doing this or, you know, the way that you're taking on the media landscape, I just seem as foolish, you know, and probably disingenuous and a bit of jealousy, you know, from their own.

Their own microphone.

So the fact that you've got a brand like Path Projects, which is a real OG in the trail space, and, you know, they're so good.

California, where I'm from, so very familiar.

And then, yeah, you've got the content king, you know, Bill Yang.

Right.

The.

The goat is going to be hard to beat.

I think everybody has a genesis story of, like, getting into trail running and being, you know, touched or being, you know, influenced by.

By Billy Yang.

So to have him, you know, go and support a race that you're involved with and something you're behind is good validation.

Right.

Like, nothing to get proud.

Too big of an ego.

But I think it validates that you are doing things and approaching this, you know, in a healthy, you know.

Yeah.

I mean, sometimes you hear the detract.

The detracting voices louder than the positive voices.

And, you know, so that what I mentioned on the 100th episode was that someone meaningful in the community of trail and the business side reached out and said he didn't like the way I was playing the media game.

And I thought.

I didn't think I was really playing the media game.

I saw.

I had a podcast and was trying to get some sponsors, all that sort of stuff.

I didn't think media game, but to be honest, that could have done two things to me that could have made me sad or mad or jealous or whatever on my end, or I took it and just tried to Say I don't.

You know, I didn't feel like I had legitimately done anything to this person and now it just made me want to not do something to this person, but build something of borderlands and media sense that was just.

Justifiably could frustrate people in the industry because it's, it's such a behemoth and you know, that's just the way I work as an entrepreneur.

I want to build big things, I want to build meaningful things and I never want to step on anyone's toes while I'm doing it.

But sometimes that just happens when you're building.

You take market share, you.

You lose it at times.

But, you know, and then to.

To get.

To sit with Billy on some levels.

Yeah.

Like to.

It's hard sometimes to even just receive good opportunities and wear them, you know, with pride because it's like.

Well, yeah, but Path is trying to headquarter in Utah now, so they needed something there.

I just happened to be there.

So, you know, it's not because of me, it's because of that.

So, you know, there's just like all sorts of.

It's like, it's like a cocktail, you know, in the, in the brain that it's all.

It's hard to just celebrate something.

But this, this one is one of those things, like I've been thinking already been thinking, like, what's my opening question?

I can't just hit him with something light, something silly like I'm gonna talk about how I watched the why I tried to show it to my dad to get him to understand and you know, who's his version of Billy Yang?

Who's Billy Yang's Billy Yang and who did he cut his teeth on?

And I just think it's going to be for me, unforgettable day.

And I Hope for the 100 to 200 people that can be there live, it will be too.

Yeah, yeah, I had a fun.

The only time I've ever come across Billy Yang in person was in the javelin 100k, the 20, 22, I guess it would have been.

He ran the 100k and.

Oh.

Oh, you ran into him while out running.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, very cool.

Yeah.

Loop three.

Was able to run up next to him for a little bit.

Of course you gotta, you know, give him his, his flowers as you're passing them by, telling him absolutely awesome all his videos were and you know, tell them all, I'll see you at the finish line.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, I.

Who knows if he gets tired of it.

He's so accessible in the community.

I ran into him once at UTMB and I, where I was randomly standing with Zach Miller's parents.

I didn't know I was staying with Zach Miller's parents until after talking to him for like 30 minutes.

And then Billy comes up and they're, they're like, oh, Billy, this guy lives in Salt Lake City and he, he knows one.

Is that a guy that went to high school?

Was Zach Shout out to Luke Bingaman in Lancaster.

And, and I, you know, I tried to play it cool.

I was like, your name is Bill.

Did you say Billy?

Okay.

Nice to meet you.

Yeah.

Can I call you William?

Would you mind?

I don't, I don't feel like I know you well enough to call you Billy, but yeah, he's, he's super, you know, accessible in the community.

It's, it's the perfect snapshot of like he's a rock star in, in, in his niche and he is, he even transcended.

I feel like his image is more impressive in person.

You know, he's like, he's a, he's a cool dude.

You know what I mean?

Like, he's.

Yeah.

His stature, you know what I mean?

Like, he's, he's big.

Yeah.

You know, like a lot of these trail runners that you see in person, like, oh, smaller, shorter or you know, more, more silly.

You know what I mean?

Like, like, yeah, good point.

Like, no, that dude's the dude, you know, like, it's cool.

Yeah, he's solid.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

So how's with your running?

We making any sort of gains or we just tread in water or going backwards?

I got, I got two and a half miles in this week.

Yeah, it's just like I'm a full on fundraising mode for the app that we're building and putting the team together for that.

And just every day, like in my normal runtime, it's just, every day just gets, man, I might be able to work my time better, but it's just, it's just not there.

Um, so you know this, it's got like this weekend has to kick off.

I'm going to publicly say I am going to get 12 total miles this weekend.

I'm going to say it.

You can ask me about it next week.

My heart is in.

My heart is like bursting with excitement for running and for getting out there.

I can feel it coming.

It's just, man, the stage of life, this six week season is just not there.

But I'm still walking.

So much in Paris.

I'm still walking six to eight miles a day, so I'm moving a lot, just not running.

Awesome.

Yeah.

That's a cautionary tale.

Right.

When you try and turn something you love doing into, you know, more than.

Yeah.

It's like goodbye.

Once you try to turn it into a business or, you know.

Yeah.

Something other than a hobby.

I've done it with everything.

I did it with coffee.

I did it with restaurants.

I did it with, you know, bookkeeping.

I liked bookkeeping a lot.

I did it with cocktails.

Now I've done it with running.

But small price to pay.

I love it.

Right.

Awesome, dude.

All right, well, let's.

Let's do this again next week.

Yeah.

Hopefully we've got some callers.

Oh, please.

Right.

Or, you know, run more 649.

Run more 649.

Call us, leave us a message.

Text if you must.

Must.

But we'd rather hear your voice, and we'll play it on future episodes.

There you go.

All right, see you.