Most of the time I realized that in my life and

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in the life of other Christians,

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the problem is not that we

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don't know the will of God.

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The problem is that we don't

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want to do the will of God.

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We do it at a certain level,

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which is comfortable enough for us.

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But when it's too provoking, too challenging for

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us, we say, "Oh, that's it."

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Before we get into this episode, I wanted to let

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you know that Anabaptist Perspectives is

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supported by our listeners,

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which means we don't run ads and

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we don't do product sponsorships.

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To make weekly episodes and to produce a series

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like Anabaptist Origins,

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we need the help of

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listeners who believe in this work.

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And we still have a

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funding shortfall for this year.

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You can get involved and support by going to

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anabaptistperspectives.org.

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So, Zoltan, we're here in Switzerland, but you're

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from Romania and we met at a conference here.

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And I was hearing some of your story and the

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things God has shown you in your life.

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And I want to dig into that

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today and hear more of that story.

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So, let's start at the beginning.

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Where were you born?

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What kind of situation did you come from?

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What was your family situation like?

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Were you born a Christian and those things?

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As far as I know, since the

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1600s, all my family on both parts,

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my father's part and my

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mother's part, they were Reformed.

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Reformed Hungarians from the

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western part of Transylvania.

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My parents were not Christian, were not

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practicing Christianity.

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They were going to church

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maybe once or twice a year,

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but our home was definitely not a Christian home.

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It was a dysfunctional family with many issues.

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And I grew up as this.

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My first thoughts of suicide came

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in my mind when I was 10 years old

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because of the issues we had in

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our family and what I had in school.

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For me, it was very difficult to go to school

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because I had to learn Romanian.

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I was forced to learn Romanian by

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the system or the school system.

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But now I'm very grateful to God for all the

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difficulties I had in our family

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and I had in school and

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the time speaking Romanian.

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Otherwise, it would be very difficult to me to

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learn English or other languages.

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My grandfather was a good example.

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I heard a lot of stories about him.

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I didn't know even my

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grandfather from my father's part,

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but I grew up hearing these stories.

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One of the things was that my

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grand-grand-father was a Bible-reading believer,

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which was not very new in those times.

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Nowadays, it's not that common among the Reformed

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people to read their Bible,

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but at that time many of

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the people were doing that.

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Even my grandparents from my mother's part saw

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the Bible open at their small table.

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When you entered the house, they

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had a small table like this one

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and the Bible was open all the

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time and not at the same spot.

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So they were reading it daily.

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My grand-grand-father, when the First World War came,

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he decided that he had no

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enemies among the Russians

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and he would not go to

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fight for this crazy cause.

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It was the Austrian-Hungarian

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Empire and the Hungarian Kingdom

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and he refused to go to fight the Russians.

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Because of that, him and many other people were

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collected in a concentration camp.

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The plan first was to

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kill them, to eliminate them,

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because they were considered

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traitors to the state and to the king.

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Later, they decided that they

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would move them to the front line

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to pick up the dead bodies and the wounded and

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have that kind of stuff.

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He survived that miraculously.

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There were shells flying all over

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the place and everything like that.

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A lot of people died next to him.

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He was also able on the front line to help some

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people from his own village.

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Even one of his relatives

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was running with the weapon,

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but he had no shoes on his feet.

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In the Russian winter, that can be enough to die.

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He helped him to get some

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shoes and to go on with his duties.

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He became a war prisoner. He was sent to Crimea.

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He had been captured by the Russians.

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He was captured by the Russians.

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He had just been reading the scriptures and said,

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"I can't fight. I don't have enemies."

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Did other people believe like this?

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No. I don't know about

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anybody in his belief to do that.

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That was very courageous.

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Yes. He was a bold man.

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What he understood and what he

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believed, he was standing on that.

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Because of his boldness, he was not

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very favored by many in the village.

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They were electing some leaders in the village.

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He was the favorite in many regards, but because

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of his boldness, he was put aside.

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In the church, he was one of the elders.

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But there were some

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problems with money in the church.

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There were double bookings.

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There were two books in the church.

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He was the one who wanted

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to tell that to the pastor.

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He told it, but all the other

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elders left him alone with this issue.

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Before that, they were saying, "Okay, we should

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tell the pastor that this is not good.

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We should do something about that."

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They were encouraging him that, "We are with you.

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Go on and you will talk."

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But when he went, he brought that problem.

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All the others left him and he stand alone.

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This is why he had to step out from the church.

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He remained a Reformed person.

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He continued probably even

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more so to read the scriptures.

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But he opened his house to smaller groups,

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non-reformed believers, who

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came back from the front line.

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They were evangelized by other

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soldiers or maybe in concentration camp.

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They came home and they

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wanted to start a new church.

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My grand-grand-father opened his

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home and said, "Come gather here."

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Wow.

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During the war, you say he

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was captured by the Russians.

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How did he escape from that? I'm assuming he did.

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He did not escape. He was released after five

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years of forced labor in Crimea.

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After that, they released him and somehow most of

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the time on his feet came home.

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I just think of it sounds like a lot of

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faithfulness and resilience and

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steadfastness in what he believed.

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He could go through all of

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those things and still be faithful.

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Yes. Even more so when he came home, he had an

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accident with the horses.

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They were scared by something.

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He was training young horses in

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the cart and they were scared.

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They were pulling him by

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the string around his wrist.

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He was pulling him on the rocky streets of the

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village and both of his legs were amputated.

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From that on, he lived 40 more years.

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He raised up his young born son because my

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grandfather was born after he came

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home from forced labor in Crimea.

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When my father was young and his siblings, my

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grand-grandfather was the one who

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was teaching them Christian songs.

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He was reading them from the Bible every night

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and he was teaching them how

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to pray to God every night.

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He was the one who wanted the next generations to

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be God-fearing and

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Bible-knowing and God-obeying people.

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Somehow that legacy, that faithfulness of his

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teaching got lost because by the time you're

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born, in your family, that's not there anymore.

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That's been lost.

Yes, that was sad.

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In the intervening years, there would have been

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another war, World War II, and then you would

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have had the Soviet Union.

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That would have been the environment you were

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born into. Is that right?

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We were not in the Soviet Union,

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but we were in the Eastern Bloc.

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Armenia was behind the Iron Curtain, how people

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understood in the Cold War situation.

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It was a reality because we were

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not able to move eastward or westward.

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We were not well-received even in the Soviet

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Union. It was hard to

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receive a visa in the Soviet Union.

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I know that because my grandmother's brother was

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in another village, which

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became part of the Soviet Union.

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When he died from an accident, my grandmother

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wanted to go to the funeral and she was not able

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because she didn't receive the Soviet visa.

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That was unfortunately very common in the Eastern

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Bloc, the Soviet Union, when they draw those

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borders, it divides up families.

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That's the environment you're coming into.

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Did that have an effect on why Christianity was

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not in your home, or was it something else?

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I think it's not only for us, but I heard it most

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from Eastern European people.

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We are very used to blame the system, very used

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to blame communism for

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everything bad in our lives.

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Yes, communism was a devastating force. They took

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our lands and animals and all the

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tools we needed to work the land.

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My family, my grandfather, had to change his

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whole system of how he was raising the children.

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My father and their siblings had to go to

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different kinds of school systems and learn

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different skills and jobs.

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My grandfather became addicted to alcohol because

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of all the pressure he was experiencing during

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the Second World War,

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especially after the Second World War.

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Romania had to pay war

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reparations toward the Soviet Union.

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Literally, it meant that the secret police was

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coming and was seeking for the last grain of

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wheat or corn to take it and

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to send it to the Soviet Union.

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People remained without food,

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without seeds, what to sow in their land.

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A couple of years later, they took even the land

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and the animals and everything that remained.

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That can be devastating, but in the Scriptures,

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in the New Testament, we hear about Christian

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brothers who received with

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joy this kind of treatment.

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Their wealth was taken away because of political

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and ideological reasons.

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My family should be very grateful

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to God because God spared our lives.

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There was one moment in the history of my family

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when they received the news, not officially, but

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you know the women are talking behind us.

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their husbands.

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My grandmother received the news from other

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women, "Prepare your family

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because you will be taken away."

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They were taking people to the Gulag.

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Those who were wealthier and those who had more

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land, they were considered Gulags.

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They were taking them away to

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the Soviet Gulag, forced labor.

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Very few people came back from there.

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My whole family, my father was already there.

271

00:14:31,412 --> 00:14:34,164

He was a little child. They were prepared to go.

272

00:14:34,999 --> 00:14:36,166

They were prepared for

273

00:14:36,166 --> 00:14:37,501

clothes and food and everything.

274

00:14:38,460 --> 00:14:39,878

They were up the whole night.

275

00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:43,882

In the morning, they saw that nothing happened.

276

00:14:45,593 --> 00:14:48,929

Also, I think it was a miracle of God.

277

00:14:49,221 --> 00:14:52,975

It was a perfect timing because Stalin just died.

278

00:14:54,226 --> 00:14:57,062

They stopped that project.

279

00:14:57,771 --> 00:15:01,191

The new leadership in the Soviet Union, they

280

00:15:01,191 --> 00:15:02,985

stopped that project right there.

281

00:15:03,527 --> 00:15:07,615

If Stalin would live a couple of days more, my

282

00:15:07,615 --> 00:15:10,367

ancestors would be gone.

283

00:15:10,993 --> 00:15:13,329

Your family could have disappeared into Siberia.

284

00:15:14,788 --> 00:15:18,417

I read the Gulag Archipelago

285

00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:20,377

by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

286

00:15:20,794 --> 00:15:23,964

Describing what happened for all those people.

287

00:15:26,216 --> 00:15:29,136

Millions of people disappeared

288

00:15:29,136 --> 00:15:32,598

into these Siberian Gulag camps.

289

00:15:33,349 --> 00:15:38,854

Some of my grand-grandfather's

290

00:15:38,854 --> 00:15:41,732

brothers, sons, disappeared there.

291

00:15:41,982 --> 00:15:43,776

They were sent before that

292

00:15:43,776 --> 00:15:47,404

because they were doing some resistance.

293

00:15:48,781 --> 00:15:53,369

I see-awful situation for your family and

294

00:15:53,369 --> 00:15:56,538

yourself to witness this.

295

00:15:57,247 --> 00:15:59,208

I just heard about all this.

296

00:15:59,708 --> 00:16:04,380

When I was born, the communism became milder and

297

00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:07,299

the situation was more livable.

298

00:16:08,801 --> 00:16:13,847

I realized afterwards that the alcoholism and

299

00:16:13,847 --> 00:16:18,394

leaving God aside and going to other ways,

300

00:16:19,478 --> 00:16:22,106

you cannot blame the system for that.

301

00:16:22,314 --> 00:16:23,649

It was their decision.

302

00:16:23,899 --> 00:16:26,318

You can decide to be grateful

303

00:16:26,318 --> 00:16:28,904

to God that He spared your life.

304

00:16:29,321 --> 00:16:31,031

Or you can decide to be

305

00:16:31,031 --> 00:16:33,784

resentful and bitter against the system

306

00:16:33,784 --> 00:16:37,746

and start to drink and curse and do other things.

307

00:16:38,455 --> 00:16:41,208

All the time it's a personal decision.

308

00:16:41,875 --> 00:16:44,920

During these times, there was a revival movement

309

00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,757

in Romania and Hungary among the Reformed people.

310

00:16:49,633 --> 00:16:54,847

My grandmother, my grandfather's wife

311

00:16:54,847 --> 00:16:57,766

became part of that movement.

312

00:16:57,808 --> 00:17:02,938

When I was a little child, my grandmother was

313

00:17:02,938 --> 00:17:04,940

teaching me Christian songs

314

00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:07,693

and scriptures and how to pray.

315

00:17:11,113 --> 00:17:13,198

I never heard her to curse or to

316

00:17:13,198 --> 00:17:17,536

say bad things or to do big sins.

317

00:17:18,203 --> 00:17:19,788

She was teaching me in a way.

318

00:17:19,788 --> 00:17:27,880

My other grandmother was a God-fearing woman and

319

00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,133

she was taking me to church as a small child.

320

00:17:32,092 --> 00:17:34,845

There were people who decided otherwise.

321

00:17:35,429 --> 00:17:37,848

I had these people in my family.

322

00:17:38,682 --> 00:17:42,644

My mother and my father growing up in communism,

323

00:17:42,811 --> 00:17:45,522

they were learning the

324

00:17:45,522 --> 00:17:49,318

materialistic dogmas, ideologies.

325

00:17:50,819 --> 00:17:53,906

You had to let that...

326

00:17:54,490 --> 00:17:58,619

When the hippie revolution or whatever you call

327

00:17:58,619 --> 00:18:00,454

it in America, it happened,

328

00:18:00,746 --> 00:18:03,957

it had effects on them also because somehow,

329

00:18:05,501 --> 00:18:12,508

under or over the Iron Curtain, the Western music and the Western lifestyle had

330

00:18:12,508 --> 00:18:15,928

and a lot of things infiltrated inside Romania.

331

00:18:16,136 --> 00:18:18,680

Not the best things, again, from the West.

332

00:18:19,306 --> 00:18:21,183

They got also infected.

333

00:18:22,184 --> 00:18:25,604

In their upgrowing and under their formation,

334

00:18:25,854 --> 00:18:27,898

they were influenced by these

335

00:18:27,898 --> 00:18:30,776

two ungodly ways and ideologies.

336

00:18:31,819 --> 00:18:33,695

One from the East and one from the West.

337

00:18:34,780 --> 00:18:36,824

The Bible remained aside.

338

00:18:37,991 --> 00:18:39,910

Was there a Bible in your home at the time?

339

00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,831

How strict was the communist government on having

340

00:18:43,831 --> 00:18:45,499

a Bible, being religious?

341

00:18:46,375 --> 00:18:49,169

Was that part of it? Did they have a Bible? Did

342

00:18:49,169 --> 00:18:50,337

you see that growing up?

343

00:18:51,296 --> 00:18:55,175

No. It was quite difficult to have a Bible.

344

00:18:57,010 --> 00:19:01,515

When I was 10 years old, it was 1989, the

345

00:19:01,515 --> 00:19:03,934

revolution happened in Romania.

346

00:19:05,018 --> 00:19:08,063

The system changed a

347

00:19:08,063 --> 00:19:10,899

while. It was changing slowly.

348

00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,236

But the religious freedom was

349

00:19:14,236 --> 00:19:17,948

instant in Romania after 1989.

350

00:19:19,241 --> 00:19:22,744

There was a big flow of Bibles and Christian

351

00:19:22,744 --> 00:19:24,746

literature toward Romania.

352

00:19:24,788 --> 00:19:28,208

Even before many Christians, those who were

353

00:19:28,208 --> 00:19:29,960

serious about their faith,

354

00:19:30,252 --> 00:19:32,796

they were able to get a Bible

355

00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:36,550

because we had, praise the Lord,

356

00:19:36,967 --> 00:19:41,096

a lot of faithful brothers and sisters from

357

00:19:41,096 --> 00:19:43,974

Western countries who were risking their lives

358

00:19:43,974 --> 00:19:46,977

to smuggle Bibles and

359

00:19:46,977 --> 00:19:50,314

Christian literature inside Romania.

360

00:19:51,982 --> 00:19:54,109

My father-in-law, he was a

361

00:19:54,109 --> 00:19:55,444

believer during the communism.

362

00:19:55,819 --> 00:19:56,945

He came from different

363

00:19:56,945 --> 00:19:59,239

backgrounds and made different decisions.

364

00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,660

And being a believer, somehow the brothers and

365

00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:05,579

sisters from the West found out that

366

00:20:05,787 --> 00:20:08,290

we can go with Christian

367

00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:09,875

literature to that brother.

368

00:20:10,584 --> 00:20:13,670

And sometimes in the middle of the night, some

369

00:20:13,670 --> 00:20:16,548

brothers woke him up and said,

370

00:20:16,798 --> 00:20:19,509

"Can we let these materials here?"

371

00:20:19,801 --> 00:20:22,471

And he said, "Of course." He was taking risks.

372

00:20:23,347 --> 00:20:24,848

But because he was bold in

373

00:20:24,848 --> 00:20:26,558

his faith, he took that risk.

374

00:20:27,559 --> 00:20:30,812

And they were finding all kinds of clever ways

375

00:20:30,812 --> 00:20:32,689

where to hide the scriptures.

376

00:20:34,816 --> 00:20:38,779

They were doing some things to

377

00:20:38,779 --> 00:20:41,156

their cars to be able to hide the Bible.

378

00:20:41,782 --> 00:20:44,785

And you were able to find

379

00:20:44,785 --> 00:20:46,662

if you were in those circles,

380

00:20:46,787 --> 00:20:49,665

if you were more devoted about your faith.

381

00:20:49,873 --> 00:20:52,459

But those who were not very interested, they

382

00:20:52,459 --> 00:20:54,419

didn't have any Bible in their home.

383

00:20:55,003 --> 00:20:59,841

But after '89, a lot of Bibles were printed, and

384

00:20:59,841 --> 00:21:04,179

my grandmother bought me two Bibles.

385

00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:09,017

No, one of my grandmothers bought me a Bible, and

386

00:21:09,017 --> 00:21:11,269

the other grandmother bought me another Bible.

387

00:21:11,853 --> 00:21:14,147

This is from my grandmother.

388

00:21:14,815 --> 00:21:18,485

So this is the one you got when communism falls,

389

00:21:18,694 --> 00:21:19,611

and you can get a Bible.

390

00:21:19,820 --> 00:21:21,488

What year is this from then?

391

00:21:21,947 --> 00:21:22,781

I think it's...

392

00:21:23,782 --> 00:21:25,993

This is probably 1989, 1990?

393

00:21:26,201 --> 00:21:28,745

No, no, no. It was printed in 1993.

394

00:21:29,579 --> 00:21:31,623

So not when I was 10 years, but

395

00:21:31,623 --> 00:21:34,084

when I was 14, they considered,

396

00:21:34,292 --> 00:21:36,044

"Okay, you are old enough.

397

00:21:36,503 --> 00:21:38,672

You should have your own Bible."

398

00:21:39,798 --> 00:21:43,510

And I received this brand

399

00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:46,513

new... I was very proud of it.

400

00:21:47,264 --> 00:21:49,641

It is very worn. You have read it a lot.

401

00:21:49,641 --> 00:21:54,104

No, it is. But I'm very ashamed that when I

402

00:21:54,104 --> 00:21:55,772

started to read, when I was

403

00:21:55,772 --> 00:21:57,649

14, I started to read this Bible.

404

00:21:58,775 --> 00:22:04,406

I got only to the Book of

405

00:22:04,406 --> 00:22:06,116

Exodus or something like that.

406

00:22:06,825 --> 00:22:10,203

And I stopped. I stopped reading it, and this

407

00:22:10,203 --> 00:22:12,414

Bible stayed many, many years

408

00:22:12,414 --> 00:22:17,127

on the shelf without being used,

409

00:22:17,627 --> 00:22:22,382

like many other Bibles in Romania. It was fancy

410

00:22:22,382 --> 00:22:25,260

to have a Bible. It was somehow cool, you know?

411

00:22:25,802 --> 00:22:30,057

Before that, it was an interdiction. It was

412

00:22:30,057 --> 00:22:32,684

dangerous to sell the Bible.

413

00:22:32,809 --> 00:22:36,980

And now everybody wanted to have a Bible because

414

00:22:36,980 --> 00:22:39,941

it's some kind of cool, something like that.

415

00:22:39,941 --> 00:22:42,903

Was it, "Oh, I can have a Bible because now that

416

00:22:42,903 --> 00:22:45,155

shows we're free and we're like

417

00:22:45,155 --> 00:22:47,616

the West, even if you never read it."

418

00:22:47,783 --> 00:22:49,367

A couple of years before, to

419

00:22:49,367 --> 00:22:50,952

have a Bible, it was dangerous.

420

00:22:51,411 --> 00:22:52,829

But now it's cool. We are

421

00:22:52,829 --> 00:22:55,123

rebelling against a dead communism.

422

00:22:56,792 --> 00:23:00,420

Yeah, it's reacting to what they had experienced,

423

00:23:00,420 --> 00:23:04,007

even if they never even read the Bible.

424

00:23:05,008 --> 00:23:09,137

So I want to dig into that a bit, where you get

425

00:23:09,137 --> 00:23:11,389

this Bible, communism has

426

00:23:11,389 --> 00:23:13,558

fallen, you start reading it,

427

00:23:13,558 --> 00:23:16,895

and then your Bible goes onto the shelf, and you

428

00:23:16,895 --> 00:23:18,688

go on and do other things in your life.

429

00:23:19,272 --> 00:23:21,483

You just weren't interested in Christianity then.

430

00:23:21,817 --> 00:23:24,277

Did you believe in God at this point? What's

431

00:23:24,277 --> 00:23:25,821

going on in your spiritual life?

432

00:23:27,239 --> 00:23:37,457

I was undecided to believe or not in God, but I

433

00:23:37,457 --> 00:23:39,793

don't want to blame anybody again.

434

00:23:39,835 --> 00:23:47,050

I'm just stating the facts. Because I did not saw

435

00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:54,224

the faith alive in my family, between my parents,

436

00:23:55,475 --> 00:23:57,644

I saw that my grandmothers,

437

00:23:57,644 --> 00:23:59,688

they have faith and they are...

438

00:24:01,523 --> 00:24:05,110

But I told that this kind of faith is for old

439

00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:06,736

people, especially old women.

440

00:24:07,863 --> 00:24:12,450

This was my understanding, because in the school

441

00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:17,455

system I was taught evolution, materialism, and

442

00:24:17,455 --> 00:24:19,833

all kinds of stuff like that.

443

00:24:20,834 --> 00:24:25,422

And again, the Western influence, we started to

444

00:24:25,422 --> 00:24:27,424

have more and more entertainment,

445

00:24:28,550 --> 00:24:31,386

more and more cartoons and movies.

446

00:24:31,970 --> 00:24:34,431

And it was very interesting that the best of

447

00:24:34,431 --> 00:24:38,852

those was on Sundays, when there was church time.

448

00:24:39,769 --> 00:24:41,062

It's very interesting that the

449

00:24:41,062 --> 00:24:42,856

communists were doing the same.

450

00:24:42,856 --> 00:24:46,443

The communists were making all kinds of programs

451

00:24:46,443 --> 00:24:51,448

for the youth on Sundays, with the specific idea

452

00:24:51,448 --> 00:24:54,492

to not- to distract them from the church.

453

00:24:54,868 --> 00:24:58,914

Sometimes they put an interdiction to the youth

454

00:24:58,914 --> 00:25:01,541

to not go to the church, but many of the young

455

00:25:01,541 --> 00:25:03,293

people were rebelling against it,

456

00:25:03,293 --> 00:25:06,129

and they were going in secret. But then they

457

00:25:06,129 --> 00:25:08,882

started another way, and they said, "Okay, you

458

00:25:08,882 --> 00:25:12,719

can go to church, but we have all kinds of games

459

00:25:12,719 --> 00:25:15,931

and shows and movie theaters."

460

00:25:16,181 --> 00:25:20,185

But everything was on Sunday. And they realized

461

00:25:20,185 --> 00:25:22,354

this is more effective than

462

00:25:22,354 --> 00:25:23,271

putting an interdiction.

463

00:25:23,813 --> 00:25:30,278

And when the fall of communism came, we started

464

00:25:30,278 --> 00:25:32,530

to have more and more TV programs.

465

00:25:33,573 --> 00:25:39,621

The best part was on Sunday. And many times I

466

00:25:39,621 --> 00:25:43,667

decided I would not go with my grandmother to the

467

00:25:43,667 --> 00:25:47,837

church, rather I stay home and watch cartoons or

468

00:25:47,837 --> 00:25:51,299

watch Disney movies or something like that.

469

00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,846

So that is such an important point, because here

470

00:25:56,846 --> 00:25:59,057

communism is trying to keep

471

00:25:59,057 --> 00:26:00,558

people from going to church,

472

00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:03,270

and yet they're realizing it's more effective if

473

00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:04,771

they just distract them.

474

00:26:04,771 --> 00:26:05,021

Yes.

475

00:26:06,106 --> 00:26:09,693

There's a lesson there for us, for sure, because

476

00:26:09,693 --> 00:26:12,279

we live in a very distracted world, right?

477

00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:12,988

You know, with the

478

00:26:12,988 --> 00:26:14,739

internet, smartphones, TV, whatever.

479

00:26:15,323 --> 00:26:15,782

More and more distracted.

480

00:26:15,824 --> 00:26:19,869

Yeah, it's easy to just get distracted and go,

481

00:26:19,869 --> 00:26:22,497

"Oh, I don't have time to read my Bible, but we

482

00:26:22,497 --> 00:26:24,332

have time to be on our smartphones."

483

00:26:24,332 --> 00:26:29,337

You can even go to church, but it's very sad when

484

00:26:29,337 --> 00:26:32,507

I see in many places young people sitting in the

485

00:26:32,507 --> 00:26:34,217

church on their smartphones.

486

00:26:34,426 --> 00:26:38,513

You can be there physically, but not be there

487

00:26:38,513 --> 00:26:42,350

spiritually and mentally, with your heart. It's

488

00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:44,102

good enough for the enemy.

489

00:26:45,937 --> 00:26:49,983

That's sobering, that you saw a similar thing

490

00:26:49,983 --> 00:26:52,152

happening with what communism tried to do with

491

00:26:52,152 --> 00:26:53,361

distracting the young people,

492

00:26:53,361 --> 00:26:55,739

and then you see the same thing with Western

493

00:26:55,739 --> 00:26:57,699

entertainment and so forth.

494

00:26:58,199 --> 00:27:00,827

Yeah, capitalism is more effective, or how they

495

00:27:00,827 --> 00:27:04,205

call it democracy, but it's actually capitalism.

496

00:27:04,539 --> 00:27:09,210

It's actually some kind of mixture of some kind

497

00:27:09,210 --> 00:27:12,088

of Babylonian system, and it's

498

00:27:12,088 --> 00:27:13,798

more effective than communism.

499

00:27:13,798 --> 00:27:16,593

It's incredibly distracting, or like the

500

00:27:16,593 --> 00:27:18,678

entertainment side of things, I mean.

501

00:27:19,929 --> 00:27:25,852

So, for your own story, it sounds like it wasn't

502

00:27:25,852 --> 00:27:29,773

necessarily you hate Christianity, necessarily.

503

00:27:30,023 --> 00:27:32,150

It didn't fit into your

504

00:27:32,150 --> 00:27:33,651

life. You were distracted.

505

00:27:33,651 --> 00:27:34,944

First, I was not hating

506

00:27:34,944 --> 00:27:38,198

Christianity, but later I became a hater.

507

00:27:38,198 --> 00:27:40,784

Okay, what changed? Why did you start hating it?

508

00:27:41,785 --> 00:27:45,747

I tried to understand. I was never thinking about

509

00:27:45,747 --> 00:27:46,831

this. This is the first

510

00:27:46,831 --> 00:27:49,751

time I put to the situation.

511

00:27:51,753 --> 00:27:55,799

One of the things what I hated in my family is

512

00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:57,759

that they were telling me lies.

513

00:28:00,887 --> 00:28:03,890

We had this celebration on

514

00:28:03,890 --> 00:28:07,769

December 6th, St. Nicholas.

515

00:28:08,937 --> 00:28:13,358

We are Reformed. We are not celebrating saints,

516

00:28:13,650 --> 00:28:16,903

but this somehow came into our culture,

517

00:28:17,529 --> 00:28:18,446

and the kids were

518

00:28:18,446 --> 00:28:22,784

receiving gifts from St. Nicholas.

519

00:28:22,784 --> 00:28:25,620

The communists said, "No, no, no, it's not St.

520

00:28:25,620 --> 00:28:30,083

Nicholas. It's Father Christmas, or Father

521

00:28:30,083 --> 00:28:32,168

Winter," or something like that.

522

00:28:32,377 --> 00:28:34,254

Okay, we don't care. The kids

523

00:28:34,254 --> 00:28:35,588

were caring about the gifts.

524

00:28:37,507 --> 00:28:42,387

My parents told me that this figure is the one,

525

00:28:42,387 --> 00:28:43,972

this mystical figure, Santa

526

00:28:43,972 --> 00:28:46,766

Claus, in Western culture.

527

00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:49,060

He is the one who is bringing

528

00:28:49,060 --> 00:28:51,354

the gifts. And I believed that.

529

00:28:52,063 --> 00:28:55,525

I believed that for so long. And when I was in

530

00:28:55,525 --> 00:28:57,652

school, in my class,

531

00:28:57,902 --> 00:28:59,362

nobody believed in Santa Claus.

532

00:28:59,654 --> 00:29:03,616

It was only me. And I said, "How can you not

533

00:29:03,616 --> 00:29:06,202

believe?" I saw his letters.

534

00:29:06,995 --> 00:29:10,665

I communicated with that figure. Of course, it

535

00:29:10,665 --> 00:29:12,792

was my parents, my mother, doing that.

536

00:29:12,792 --> 00:29:17,172

And when I found out that it

537

00:29:17,172 --> 00:29:22,886

was her, I felt like a treason.

538

00:29:23,470 --> 00:29:28,057

I was very, very sad. You made me

539

00:29:28,057 --> 00:29:30,351

a clown in front of my classmates.

540

00:29:30,894 --> 00:29:33,396

Everything was a lie. Everybody knew that. It was

541

00:29:33,396 --> 00:29:37,775

only me who was following that lie.

542

00:29:38,818 --> 00:29:43,573

The problem was that when Christmas came, they

543

00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:47,202

were saying that Jesus is bringing the gifts.

544

00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:50,455

On December 6th, it was Santa

545

00:29:50,455 --> 00:29:53,374

Claus, but at Christmas it was Jesus.

546

00:29:53,708 --> 00:29:55,001

In other families, it was

547

00:29:55,001 --> 00:29:56,878

some angel, some other figure.

548

00:29:57,212 --> 00:30:00,673

So we had two separate figures. We didn't receive

549

00:30:00,673 --> 00:30:05,762

the gifts on Christmas from Santa Claus.

550

00:30:05,803 --> 00:30:08,431

He was a different figure and

551

00:30:08,431 --> 00:30:10,475

different date. And it was his date.

552

00:30:11,184 --> 00:30:13,478

And we received the gifts from Jesus. And I said

553

00:30:13,478 --> 00:30:17,482

to myself, if they were lying to me about Santa

554

00:30:17,482 --> 00:30:20,151

Claus, they are lying about Jesus too.

555

00:30:21,027 --> 00:30:23,404

And I said, "Okay, I will not believe in either."

556

00:30:24,656 --> 00:30:28,284

And if there is no Jesus, there is no God. The

557

00:30:28,284 --> 00:30:31,788

whole biblical narrative is falling apart.

558

00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:36,000

Because the whole Bible is about Jesus, I

559

00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,546

understood that as a child, somehow I felt that.

560

00:30:40,088 --> 00:30:41,839

And if there is no Jesus for me,

561

00:30:41,839 --> 00:30:43,299

there is no God for me anymore.

562

00:30:44,217 --> 00:30:46,928

And that's why I hate Santa Claus. I think that

563

00:30:46,928 --> 00:30:53,768

Santa Claus is an image of the devil.

564

00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:58,856

Because it distracts kids from God. It's a

565

00:30:58,856 --> 00:31:00,650

replacement. It's a kind of

566

00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:03,736

anti-Christ in my understanding.

567

00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,490

And I never told any stories like that to my

568

00:31:07,490 --> 00:31:09,158

children or any lie. I decided

569

00:31:09,158 --> 00:31:10,493

I will never lie to my children.

570

00:31:11,077 --> 00:31:12,620

I will be very honest, very

571

00:31:12,620 --> 00:31:15,790

straightforward with them in every regard.

572

00:31:16,791 --> 00:31:20,712

Because I don't want my children to feel what I

573

00:31:20,712 --> 00:31:24,716

felt and to experience some similar things.

574

00:31:25,258 --> 00:31:26,593

This was one of the things.

575

00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,222

Then as I grew up, I started to

576

00:31:31,222 --> 00:31:33,558

get in more and more kind of sins.

577

00:31:34,976 --> 00:31:39,772

And from my upbringing, from my grandparents,

578

00:31:40,732 --> 00:31:42,108

grandmothers especially, and

579

00:31:42,108 --> 00:31:43,651

from what I heard in the church,

580

00:31:43,818 --> 00:31:49,449

I knew that that's not good. And I started to

581

00:31:49,449 --> 00:31:53,995

hate not only the whole ethical system, but also

582

00:31:53,995 --> 00:31:57,081

the church, the scripture, and God.

583

00:31:57,957 --> 00:32:01,502

Because I knew that I am

584

00:32:01,502 --> 00:32:04,088

condemned by the whole system.

585

00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:07,759

And then after a couple of years, I started to

586

00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:10,970

fight actively against Christianity.

587

00:32:11,554 --> 00:32:15,933

I started to try to convince all my Christian

588

00:32:15,933 --> 00:32:18,853

acquaintances and friends to renounce

589

00:32:18,853 --> 00:32:21,022

Christianity, to not go to church.

590

00:32:21,939 --> 00:32:26,778

Even those who went to seminary or theology, they

591

00:32:26,778 --> 00:32:27,779

wanted to become a pastor.

592

00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:31,074

I tried to convince them not to

593

00:32:31,074 --> 00:32:34,077

do that because it has no sense.

594

00:32:34,619 --> 00:32:37,789

And I felt more and more hatred against

595

00:32:37,789 --> 00:32:39,332

everything that was Christian.

596

00:32:39,540 --> 00:32:42,877

I think that the enemy infiltrated

597

00:32:42,877 --> 00:32:45,880

my mind and heart on deeper levels.

598

00:32:46,673 --> 00:32:49,759

Before I got converted, I was cursing God.

599

00:32:49,801 --> 00:32:54,305

It's not a common way of speaking in many

600

00:32:54,305 --> 00:32:58,893

languages, but I'm telling many people that we

601

00:32:58,893 --> 00:33:02,105

Hungarians, I think, we are some of the worst

602

00:33:02,105 --> 00:33:04,774

nations on the face of the earth.

603

00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:08,653

And some of my Hungarian friends got to tell me,

604

00:33:08,653 --> 00:33:09,779

"Why are you saying that?"

605

00:33:09,821 --> 00:33:15,326

I said, "Give me another example of any nation

606

00:33:15,326 --> 00:33:18,454

with any language whom they are

607

00:33:18,454 --> 00:33:21,040

cursing God more than us Hungarians."

608

00:33:22,083 --> 00:33:25,628

And I was on the top in that regard.

609

00:33:26,796 --> 00:33:30,591

Even my unbeliever friends were saying to me, "Do

610

00:33:30,591 --> 00:33:33,219

not curse that much. It hurts our ear."

611

00:33:33,803 --> 00:33:35,805

They were not believing in God, but

612

00:33:35,805 --> 00:33:38,433

it was awful to hear even for them.

613

00:33:38,808 --> 00:33:41,936

And I was not realizing what I'm doing. I was

614

00:33:41,936 --> 00:33:44,939

amazed when I was cursing, but I was doing that.

615

00:33:45,815 --> 00:33:47,442

And later I understood that I

616

00:33:47,442 --> 00:33:51,028

was somehow in a bondage with sin.

617

00:33:51,571 --> 00:33:54,741

Somehow the enemy took control over my tongue,

618

00:33:55,116 --> 00:33:58,786

and I was immune to feeling any

619

00:33:58,786 --> 00:34:00,621

sorrow for that kind of thing.

620

00:34:01,164 --> 00:34:04,917

It's like you viewed Christianity like a fairy

621

00:34:04,917 --> 00:34:07,795

tale in a way, but yet almost worse.

622

00:34:07,795 --> 00:34:12,467

It's not only like a fairy tale, but some kind of

623

00:34:12,467 --> 00:34:17,889

ideology which wants to rob me

624

00:34:17,889 --> 00:34:22,435

of my favorite sins, my things.

625

00:34:22,810 --> 00:34:25,188

So not just a fairy tale, but something that's

626

00:34:25,188 --> 00:34:27,565

going to mess up your life.

627

00:34:28,024 --> 00:34:30,401

It wants to interfere with my life.

628

00:34:30,818 --> 00:34:33,613

That's the word. "Interfere with your life."

629

00:34:34,781 --> 00:34:37,241

But somehow that changed, obviously.

630

00:34:37,784 --> 00:34:40,203

Because now, okay, so your Bible sits on the

631

00:34:40,203 --> 00:34:42,497

shelf for years and isn't read, but I look at it

632

00:34:42,497 --> 00:34:44,248

now, and it's clearly been read a lot.

633

00:34:44,540 --> 00:34:45,082

So somewhere...

634

00:34:45,333 --> 00:34:48,544

This is my third Bible. I was not

635

00:34:48,544 --> 00:34:50,505

using it when I became a Christian.

636

00:34:50,755 --> 00:34:54,133

I started to use other Bibles, but after the

637

00:34:54,133 --> 00:34:57,970

second one was destroyed, I said, "Okay, I will

638

00:34:57,970 --> 00:34:58,763

take this from the shelf."

639

00:34:59,806 --> 00:35:01,641

It's also a good relic and

640

00:35:01,641 --> 00:35:04,685

good memory, but it can be used.

641

00:35:05,228 --> 00:35:07,522

Yeah, but what changed?

642

00:35:07,897 --> 00:35:10,817

You started reading the Scriptures again, or you

643

00:35:10,817 --> 00:35:12,777

come to realize God is real now?

644

00:35:12,777 --> 00:35:13,444

I mean, you're an atheist.

645

00:35:14,570 --> 00:35:17,698

And so how do you change?

646

00:35:18,783 --> 00:35:21,994

Many things change, but very slowly.

647

00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:26,499

Some people have very fast conversion.

648

00:35:26,791 --> 00:35:30,461

Mine was quite slow.

649

00:35:31,379 --> 00:35:32,463

One of the reasons...

650

00:35:33,631 --> 00:35:35,424

It came also from the Bible,

651

00:35:35,424 --> 00:35:37,927

especially from the sermon on the mount.

652

00:35:39,136 --> 00:35:43,307

I heard in one sermon, and I was child, that you

653

00:35:43,307 --> 00:35:46,561

shall ask and you will be given, and you shall

654

00:35:46,561 --> 00:35:48,145

knock and there will be opened.

655

00:35:48,729 --> 00:35:51,774

And I said, "Okay, I will try to do that."

656

00:35:51,816 --> 00:35:56,445

As a small child, I didn't understand the depths

657

00:35:56,445 --> 00:36:02,368

of that statement, and I was asking some specific

658

00:36:02,368 --> 00:36:05,371

things from God, and it was not happening.

659

00:36:05,955 --> 00:36:07,290

It didn't happen anything.

660

00:36:08,291 --> 00:36:14,797

And I felt like a fool, and I became more bitter.

661

00:36:14,839 --> 00:36:18,134

It was around when I was 12

662

00:36:18,134 --> 00:36:20,219

or 13, something like that.

663

00:36:21,721 --> 00:36:26,934

And I said, "This is another lie from the Bible.

664

00:36:26,934 --> 00:36:28,644

This is not true. This is not working."

665

00:36:30,062 --> 00:36:33,816

But when I was around 20

666

00:36:35,568 --> 00:36:38,529

of my age, I was traveling.

667

00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,367

I was traveling because I wanted

668

00:36:43,367 --> 00:36:46,287

to have more experience in my life.

669

00:36:47,246 --> 00:36:49,498

My mother was overprotective

670

00:36:49,498 --> 00:36:52,043

with me. I am his only son.

671

00:36:52,793 --> 00:36:53,961

And I started to rebel

672

00:36:53,961 --> 00:36:57,340

against that kind of situation.

673

00:36:58,132 --> 00:37:01,093

And I was traveling without money, because I was

674

00:37:01,093 --> 00:37:04,889

also rebelling about the

675

00:37:04,889 --> 00:37:07,767

mentality of the people around me,

676

00:37:07,808 --> 00:37:11,020

who said, "Oh, you can have fun and you can

677

00:37:11,020 --> 00:37:13,439

travel and have experience only if you have

678

00:37:13,439 --> 00:37:15,441

money, if you don't have that."

679

00:37:15,942 --> 00:37:19,195

Our family was not poor. We were quite good

680

00:37:19,195 --> 00:37:21,113

situated, but we were not wasting

681

00:37:21,113 --> 00:37:24,867

money for crazy stuff like traveling.

682

00:37:25,576 --> 00:37:29,497

We were buying properties, land, and doing this

683

00:37:29,497 --> 00:37:34,377

and that, but not this fancy thing.

684

00:37:35,336 --> 00:37:37,171

And I was traveling on my own

685

00:37:37,171 --> 00:37:40,049

without money, and I was not having food.

686

00:37:40,424 --> 00:37:41,634

I was coming backwards

687

00:37:41,634 --> 00:37:44,011

from Odessa nowadays, a train.

688

00:37:45,304 --> 00:37:48,599

And in a Romanian city, I was very hungry, and I

689

00:37:48,599 --> 00:37:51,435

saw some grapes which were

690

00:37:51,435 --> 00:37:54,814

ripe, just good for eating them.

691

00:37:55,314 --> 00:37:57,066

And there was a very low

692

00:37:57,066 --> 00:38:00,486

fence between me and those grapes.

693

00:38:00,820 --> 00:38:03,322

It was somebody's property, obviously.

694

00:38:03,823 --> 00:38:07,159

And I was thinking, "I should take a couple of

695

00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:09,370

those grapes. It would be delicious."

696

00:38:10,121 --> 00:38:12,665

But it came in my mind, what I heard in my

697

00:38:12,665 --> 00:38:14,667

childhood, "Do not steal."

698

00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:17,003

And I became very angry.

699

00:38:17,837 --> 00:38:21,882

And the thought in my mind was, "Who invented

700

00:38:21,882 --> 00:38:24,552

this stupid thing to not steal?

701

00:38:25,177 --> 00:38:28,055

When you are hungry and the grapes are there, you

702

00:38:28,055 --> 00:38:29,765

should take whatever you want.

703

00:38:29,807 --> 00:38:32,893

You should not care about these

704

00:38:32,893 --> 00:38:35,396

stupid rules or laws or whatever."

705

00:38:37,148 --> 00:38:43,404

But I was shy, and the shame and the possible

706

00:38:43,404 --> 00:38:47,074

complications convinced me not to do that.

707

00:38:47,658 --> 00:38:51,078

But I was saying in my heart, "Whoever invented

708

00:38:51,078 --> 00:38:53,873

this rule to not steal, he

709

00:38:53,873 --> 00:38:56,250

should give me what I need

710

00:38:56,792 --> 00:38:59,670

without putting me in the situation to steal."

711

00:39:00,629 --> 00:39:03,924

And I was going on with these thoughts in my

712

00:39:03,924 --> 00:39:06,719

heart, and a couple of hundreds

713

00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,388

of meters down on that street,

714

00:39:10,264 --> 00:39:13,267

I was not sure where to turn to get out from that

715

00:39:13,267 --> 00:39:16,395

city, and I asked somebody for the direction.

716

00:39:17,188 --> 00:39:19,148

And he explained me, he was very

717

00:39:19,148 --> 00:39:22,777

kind, and I wanted to go on my way.

718

00:39:22,818 --> 00:39:25,780

And he said, "Wait a minute." He was calling his

719

00:39:25,780 --> 00:39:28,824

wife, and his wife came

720

00:39:28,824 --> 00:39:30,701

with a plate full of grapes.

721

00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,749

For me, it was a spiritual experience.

722

00:39:37,458 --> 00:39:41,712

I was like struck by lightning, and I realized

723

00:39:41,712 --> 00:39:44,632

that somebody heard my thoughts,

724

00:39:45,382 --> 00:39:48,135

and not only heard, somebody who heard my

725

00:39:48,135 --> 00:39:49,220

thoughts, he's reacting,

726

00:39:49,470 --> 00:39:50,846

he's answering my thoughts.

727

00:39:52,515 --> 00:39:56,560

And at that time I realized that I was

728

00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,813

misunderstanding, because I

729

00:39:58,813 --> 00:40:01,774

was asking in my childhood

730

00:40:01,816 --> 00:40:05,611

fancy things from God and for my

731

00:40:05,611 --> 00:40:08,280

desires, but it wasn't my needs.

732

00:40:09,073 --> 00:40:12,701

But this time, and many times it's not me who

733

00:40:12,701 --> 00:40:16,789

decides what are needs and what are only some

734

00:40:16,789 --> 00:40:19,625

fancy desires in my life,

735

00:40:20,292 --> 00:40:24,338

what I really need. This time, somebody over me,

736

00:40:24,338 --> 00:40:28,801

some higher, being heard my thoughts and reacted

737

00:40:28,801 --> 00:40:30,886

and gave me those grapes,

738

00:40:32,096 --> 00:40:35,933

I wasn't able to come over these thoughts, and

739

00:40:35,933 --> 00:40:38,269

later a lot of other things happened.

740

00:40:40,229 --> 00:40:43,107

That is so interesting though, that you

741

00:40:43,107 --> 00:40:45,651

remembered those things you

742

00:40:45,651 --> 00:40:46,777

had heard as a child, right?

743

00:40:46,819 --> 00:40:50,489

You shouldn't steal, ask, and you'll receive.

744

00:40:51,448 --> 00:40:54,577

And at your current point in life, you don't even

745

00:40:54,577 --> 00:40:55,744

believe in God at that point,

746

00:40:55,995 --> 00:40:58,497

"Oh, this is just a fairy tale, this isn't real."

747

00:40:59,206 --> 00:41:02,668

But is that the starting place where you start

748

00:41:02,668 --> 00:41:04,170

changing how you think

749

00:41:04,170 --> 00:41:05,588

about God, about Christianity?

750

00:41:06,463 --> 00:41:07,798

What happened after that?

751

00:41:08,799 --> 00:41:13,429

This was a point when after many years I started

752

00:41:13,429 --> 00:41:18,559

to reconsider my stance relating God's existence.

753

00:41:19,518 --> 00:41:21,854

I started to think at that point

754

00:41:21,854 --> 00:41:24,481

that maybe there is some higher being.

755

00:41:25,316 --> 00:41:30,779

I was not calling him God, I was not sure about

756

00:41:30,779 --> 00:41:33,782

his character, if he's good or bad,

757

00:41:34,783 --> 00:41:38,495

what kind of person he is, or if he is a person

758

00:41:38,495 --> 00:41:42,208

or just a law of nature or some force,

759

00:41:42,708 --> 00:41:46,879

all these agnostic, fancy stuff, ideologies.

760

00:41:48,005 --> 00:41:49,715

But I started to reconsider my

761

00:41:49,715 --> 00:41:53,761

stance regarding the existence of God,

762

00:41:53,802 --> 00:41:58,933

and I started to be sure that there is some kind

763

00:41:58,933 --> 00:42:03,020

of God, some kind of being or force or

764

00:42:03,020 --> 00:42:05,898

intelligence or anything like that.

765

00:42:07,399 --> 00:42:09,610

So at that point you say,

766

00:42:09,610 --> 00:42:11,904

"Okay, maybe there is a God."

767

00:42:12,363 --> 00:42:14,907

But that's a long ways from becoming a Christian.

768

00:42:15,950 --> 00:42:18,577

So somewhere in there you need to

769

00:42:18,577 --> 00:42:21,247

take that step back to Christianity.

770

00:42:21,538 --> 00:42:22,790

And what did that look like for you?

771

00:42:23,791 --> 00:42:28,045

For me it was a sermon on the radio.

772

00:42:29,630 --> 00:42:31,840

I was living in another

773

00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,717

city, far from my parents.

774

00:42:35,928 --> 00:42:41,225

I tried a lot of crazy things, but I was bored, I

775

00:42:41,225 --> 00:42:42,768

was quite bored a lot of times.

776

00:42:43,811 --> 00:42:49,483

Once I was in my room in the campus and turned on

777

00:42:49,483 --> 00:42:52,486

the radio for looking for something interesting,

778

00:42:53,362 --> 00:42:55,447

and I heard somebody preaching

779

00:42:55,447 --> 00:42:57,574

on one of the radio stations.

780

00:42:58,909 --> 00:43:02,538

It was in Romanian, but it was quite interesting.

781

00:43:02,913 --> 00:43:08,794

I let him do his job, and I started to listen.

782

00:43:08,836 --> 00:43:11,005

He was preaching about Jesus,

783

00:43:11,422 --> 00:43:13,757

about his person, about his character.

784

00:43:15,009 --> 00:43:17,803

And he was preaching based on the beautitudes,

785

00:43:18,887 --> 00:43:21,432

based on what he was teaching to his disciples,

786

00:43:21,807 --> 00:43:25,811

about how they can be happy, how they can have a

787

00:43:25,811 --> 00:43:27,521

blessed, a fulfilled life.

788

00:43:28,814 --> 00:43:32,484

And all those words were amazing for me.

789

00:43:33,485 --> 00:43:36,697

I realized that this is a different dimension,

790

00:43:36,905 --> 00:43:38,824

this is another world, this

791

00:43:38,824 --> 00:43:40,993

is something extraordinary.

792

00:43:41,827 --> 00:43:45,664

And that night we went out with my friends to

793

00:43:45,664 --> 00:43:49,626

drink in a bar, and with the beer on the table,

794

00:43:50,085 --> 00:43:51,503

I started to share with them

795

00:43:51,503 --> 00:43:53,797

that, "Hey guys, we are so stupid.

796

00:43:55,174 --> 00:43:59,678

We have a lot of things in life, and we are still

797

00:43:59,678 --> 00:44:04,516

miserable, we are depressed a lot of times,

798

00:44:04,516 --> 00:44:05,851

we are full of

799

00:44:05,851 --> 00:44:08,729

resentfulness and hatred and everything.

800

00:44:09,271 --> 00:44:12,274

Jesus was alone, was poor, does

801

00:44:12,274 --> 00:44:14,443

not have any wife or girlfriend.

802

00:44:15,069 --> 00:44:18,530

Even his disciples treated him sometimes very

803

00:44:18,530 --> 00:44:21,116

badly, and his nation was

804

00:44:21,116 --> 00:44:22,785

against him and everything like that.

805

00:44:22,826 --> 00:44:26,246

Whatever I heard in the sermon, and he was living

806

00:44:26,246 --> 00:44:27,539

a fulfilled life, he was

807

00:44:27,539 --> 00:44:30,834

happy, he was not resentful,

808

00:44:30,834 --> 00:44:33,337

and he was teaching others, and a lot of people

809

00:44:33,337 --> 00:44:37,091

listened to him, and we are here with our beers,

810

00:44:37,424 --> 00:44:39,259

and we have some money in the pocket.

811

00:44:39,510 --> 00:44:41,261

There are a lot of nice girls in

812

00:44:41,261 --> 00:44:43,222

the campus, and we are miserable.

813

00:44:43,806 --> 00:44:44,932

What's wrong with us?

814

00:44:46,642 --> 00:44:48,644

That's amazing. You said that,

815

00:44:48,644 --> 00:44:49,770

and you're not even a Christian yet.

816

00:44:49,812 --> 00:44:55,526

I was preaching to my friends.

817

00:44:56,110 --> 00:44:57,027

What did they say?

818

00:44:57,820 --> 00:44:59,905

They said, "You are crazy. You

819

00:44:59,905 --> 00:45:01,782

are too drunk, you drink too much."

820

00:45:01,782 --> 00:45:02,449

Let's go.

821

00:45:03,826 --> 00:45:05,786

That's amazing.

822

00:45:07,704 --> 00:45:10,666

So, what then? Do you go to church then?

823

00:45:11,208 --> 00:45:12,793

How do you take the next step?

824

00:45:12,835 --> 00:45:18,298

I remain stuck with the idea that this Jesus is

825

00:45:18,298 --> 00:45:20,884

somehow different from us.

826

00:45:20,884 --> 00:45:21,844

It's not like us.

827

00:45:23,554 --> 00:45:27,391

Until then, I was reading books and listening

828

00:45:27,391 --> 00:45:32,396

guys, smarter guys than me, to learn something,

829

00:45:32,396 --> 00:45:35,441

to grow in my knowledge and

830

00:45:35,441 --> 00:45:36,692

in my character, anything.

831

00:45:37,025 --> 00:45:38,193

But I was growing in the

832

00:45:38,193 --> 00:45:40,571

wrong direction, towards hell.

833

00:45:41,780 --> 00:45:43,991

Now I realized, "Hey, I should

834

00:45:43,991 --> 00:45:46,785

listen to what Jesus has to say."

835

00:45:47,661 --> 00:45:49,496

How can you do that?

836

00:45:50,789 --> 00:45:54,543

I know one of my colleagues from

837

00:45:54,543 --> 00:45:56,670

the school, from the university,

838

00:45:57,296 --> 00:45:59,590

he was a new believer. He

839

00:45:59,590 --> 00:46:01,425

was a very zealous Christian.

840

00:46:02,176 --> 00:46:04,428

I made fun of him a lot of times.

841

00:46:05,804 --> 00:46:08,682

I was sorry later when I became a Christian that

842

00:46:08,682 --> 00:46:09,766

I annoyed him a lot of times.

843

00:46:09,808 --> 00:46:12,603

But I knew that he was going to church.

844

00:46:13,729 --> 00:46:18,817

On one of occasions, he was

845

00:46:18,817 --> 00:46:20,068

going to church and I said,

846

00:46:20,319 --> 00:46:22,196

"Hey, can I come with you?"

847

00:46:22,946 --> 00:46:24,823

He was not sure if I'm joking

848

00:46:24,823 --> 00:46:26,825

or I tried to make fun of him.

849

00:46:27,034 --> 00:46:28,952

What are my intentions?

850

00:46:29,703 --> 00:46:32,122

I was not a very good and honest

851

00:46:32,122 --> 00:46:35,167

person. I was very mean with people.

852

00:46:36,793 --> 00:46:39,922

He said, "Yeah, if you really want, you can come."

853

00:46:40,422 --> 00:46:41,381

I went to the church.

854

00:46:42,216 --> 00:46:47,554

I was very scared because it was an evangelical

855

00:46:47,554 --> 00:46:49,681

church, not a Reformed church.

856

00:46:50,599 --> 00:46:52,601

It was new in many regards.

857

00:46:53,644 --> 00:46:58,357

I stayed there and when the meeting was over,

858

00:46:58,857 --> 00:47:02,194

I asked my friend, "Can you provide me a Bible?"

859

00:47:03,529 --> 00:47:05,405

He came up with Gideon's New

860

00:47:05,405 --> 00:47:07,991

Testament. He gave it to me.

861

00:47:08,575 --> 00:47:09,451

I was very thankful.

862

00:47:10,577 --> 00:47:15,499

I went back to the campus and whenever I had

863

00:47:15,499 --> 00:47:17,501

time, I started to read.

864

00:47:18,669 --> 00:47:21,964

My roommate started to make fun of me,

865

00:47:21,964 --> 00:47:24,883

but I fought back very,

866

00:47:24,883 --> 00:47:26,760

very strongly with the words.

867

00:47:26,802 --> 00:47:34,351

I was even showing other things to them if they

868

00:47:34,351 --> 00:47:36,562

don't let me do my stuff.

869

00:47:38,105 --> 00:47:40,941

Especially when there was nobody in the room,

870

00:47:41,316 --> 00:47:42,359

because I was not

871

00:47:42,359 --> 00:47:46,029

interested in word fights with them,

872

00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,198

I started to read the

873

00:47:48,198 --> 00:47:49,575

scripture, the New Testament.

874

00:47:51,326 --> 00:47:53,495

Once when I was reading it,

875

00:47:54,580 --> 00:47:58,542

somehow the thought came in my mind,

876

00:47:59,710 --> 00:48:01,295

my heart and my soul,

877

00:48:01,795 --> 00:48:04,590

that if there is a God and if

878

00:48:04,590 --> 00:48:07,467

He has a revelation, this is it.

879

00:48:08,468 --> 00:48:09,052

This is it.

880

00:48:10,971 --> 00:48:14,308

I was so happy and so amazed also

881

00:48:14,308 --> 00:48:16,977

and so afraid also by this discovery.

882

00:48:17,811 --> 00:48:19,062

Is it real?

883

00:48:19,730 --> 00:48:22,941

I had it all over the time here close,

884

00:48:23,150 --> 00:48:24,693

and I was not realizing that

885

00:48:24,693 --> 00:48:26,570

this is the revelation of God.

886

00:48:28,071 --> 00:48:32,284

I continued to read and one

887

00:48:32,284 --> 00:48:35,871

of the shocking events was

888

00:48:35,871 --> 00:48:39,458

when I got to the point at

889

00:48:39,458 --> 00:48:40,584

the beginning of the Matthew,

890

00:48:41,376 --> 00:48:42,419

the Sermon on the Mountain,

891

00:48:43,211 --> 00:48:48,300

when Jesus was teaching to show the other face

892

00:48:48,300 --> 00:48:49,760

and to give the other

893

00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,095

clothes and go the other mile.

894

00:48:52,804 --> 00:48:55,807

Exactly in that time in my life,

895

00:48:56,141 --> 00:48:58,644

one of my roommates stole my

896

00:48:58,644 --> 00:49:01,396

greatest treasure, my camera,

897

00:49:03,273 --> 00:49:06,151

which I received as a gift.

898

00:49:07,277 --> 00:49:10,781

He sold it for some low price,

899

00:49:10,822 --> 00:49:12,783

and he bought alcohol

900

00:49:12,783 --> 00:49:14,493

when I was not on the campus.

901

00:49:15,369 --> 00:49:18,955

I came back, I was very angry, I wanted revenge,

902

00:49:19,247 --> 00:49:21,208

I wanted to recover the

903

00:49:21,208 --> 00:49:22,751

camera, the money, anything.

904

00:49:24,044 --> 00:49:26,630

I made a lot of steps in that direction.

905

00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:29,966

I wanted to go to the

906

00:49:29,966 --> 00:49:31,635

police with all the evidence

907

00:49:31,635 --> 00:49:33,095

and to make sure that

908

00:49:33,095 --> 00:49:35,430

they will punish him somehow.

909

00:49:36,515 --> 00:49:38,767

I did not want to do the dirty job myself

910

00:49:38,809 --> 00:49:42,437

because I knew that this would become ugly,

911

00:49:42,938 --> 00:49:44,564

but I said, "Okay, I will

912

00:49:44,564 --> 00:49:46,817

not do that kind of stuff,

913

00:49:46,817 --> 00:49:48,944

but I will bring him to police."

914

00:49:49,444 --> 00:49:51,196

When I was reading these words,

915

00:49:51,822 --> 00:49:54,282

it was making me angry, very angry.

916

00:49:54,908 --> 00:49:57,285

I was saying, "Jesus, how you can say this,

917

00:49:57,285 --> 00:49:58,662

how you can command these

918

00:49:58,662 --> 00:50:00,080

kinds of things to your disciples?

919

00:50:01,039 --> 00:50:05,419

I would like to do that, but you don't know what

920

00:50:05,419 --> 00:50:06,795

kind of world we are living in.

921

00:50:06,837 --> 00:50:09,464

You don't know how these guys are,

922

00:50:09,464 --> 00:50:11,508

you don't know how this campus is.

923

00:50:11,508 --> 00:50:12,217

This is a jungle.

924

00:50:12,884 --> 00:50:16,179

You will not survive here, only by force.

925

00:50:16,805 --> 00:50:18,223

You have to show strength,

926

00:50:18,473 --> 00:50:19,808

you have to intimidate others,

927

00:50:20,016 --> 00:50:23,437

you have to prove your point and to make all

928

00:50:23,437 --> 00:50:24,896

kinds of steps to survive.

929

00:50:25,105 --> 00:50:28,859

If I will do what you are saying to me, they will

930

00:50:28,859 --> 00:50:30,402

take everything from me.

931

00:50:30,819 --> 00:50:35,240

They will think that I am stupid and they can do

932

00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:36,950

whatever they want with me."

933

00:50:37,951 --> 00:50:40,579

In a way, I was afraid of the consequences.

934

00:50:41,079 --> 00:50:43,206

What if I obey his words?

935

00:50:44,541 --> 00:50:46,418

But I was not able to sleep.

936

00:50:47,085 --> 00:50:50,380

After a couple of days of struggling in my heart,

937

00:50:51,047 --> 00:50:53,216

I said, "Okay, Jesus, I give up.

938

00:50:54,009 --> 00:50:54,593

I give up.

939

00:50:55,051 --> 00:50:57,429

If you said so, I will do this."

940

00:50:58,305 --> 00:50:59,097

And I did it.

941

00:50:59,806 --> 00:51:01,141

I went to the roommate.

942

00:51:02,392 --> 00:51:04,311

He moved to another room because

943

00:51:04,311 --> 00:51:06,229

he was afraid of the consequences.

944

00:51:07,397 --> 00:51:10,192

And I said, "Hey, I want to talk with you."

945

00:51:10,859 --> 00:51:13,487

We sat down and I said, "You know what?

946

00:51:14,279 --> 00:51:15,405

I am destroying all the

947

00:51:15,405 --> 00:51:16,907

evidence I have against you.

948

00:51:17,199 --> 00:51:19,201

I will not go to the police.

949

00:51:20,035 --> 00:51:22,370

I don't want to recover anything.

950

00:51:23,789 --> 00:51:26,208

You hurt me in my feelings

951

00:51:26,208 --> 00:51:30,086

because I tried to be a friend with you.

952

00:51:30,921 --> 00:51:34,132

And then you did this, but I forgive you and I

953

00:51:34,132 --> 00:51:36,510

don't have any request from you."

954

00:51:37,928 --> 00:51:40,055

He started to have some tears in

955

00:51:40,055 --> 00:51:41,848

his eyes and he was asking, "Why?"

956

00:51:42,933 --> 00:51:44,226

And I said, "You know why?

957

00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:46,603

Because I also was forgiven.

958

00:51:48,313 --> 00:51:50,690

Jesus died on the cross for me.

959

00:51:51,191 --> 00:51:53,902

I was forgiven and I want to do

960

00:51:53,902 --> 00:51:58,198

with you what Jesus did with me."

961

00:51:59,908 --> 00:52:02,661

And after that, for a couple of

962

00:52:02,661 --> 00:52:05,956

days, I felt that I am the most happy

963

00:52:05,956 --> 00:52:08,375

and the most free man on

964

00:52:08,375 --> 00:52:09,835

the whole face of the earth.

965

00:52:10,460 --> 00:52:14,256

I felt such a deep peace and such great joy.

966

00:52:15,340 --> 00:52:16,383

And I was thinking in my

967

00:52:16,383 --> 00:52:18,760

heart that this was worth it.

968

00:52:18,802 --> 00:52:23,431

There is no money on earth which you can buy this

969

00:52:23,431 --> 00:52:25,767

freedom, this peace, this happiness.

970

00:52:27,102 --> 00:52:30,939

And I started to understand and

971

00:52:30,939 --> 00:52:33,692

it was the Holy Spirit, obviously,

972

00:52:34,025 --> 00:52:37,988

who made me uncomfortable with the whole

973

00:52:37,988 --> 00:52:39,823

situation and convinced

974

00:52:39,823 --> 00:52:42,951

me to try the words of God

975

00:52:42,951 --> 00:52:44,244

and to make these decisions.

976

00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,706

And I was convinced that obeying

977

00:52:47,706 --> 00:52:52,210

God is the best choice in my life.

978

00:52:53,628 --> 00:52:57,340

And in between this and that, starting to read

979

00:52:57,340 --> 00:52:59,968

the scriptures and going to this district,

980

00:52:59,968 --> 00:53:05,515

in between there were some evangelical meetings,

981

00:53:06,850 --> 00:53:10,437

evangelization meetings, in the church.

982

00:53:11,897 --> 00:53:15,901

My Reformed friend took me to a Baptist church

983

00:53:15,901 --> 00:53:21,615

and a Lutheran pastor was evangelizing.

984

00:53:22,866 --> 00:53:25,869

And me, an atheist or now an agnostic,

985

00:53:26,202 --> 00:53:30,290

half-agnostic guy, was listening every night

986

00:53:30,290 --> 00:53:33,084

the message of the cross, the

987

00:53:33,084 --> 00:53:34,794

message of the sacrifice of Jesus.

988

00:53:34,794 --> 00:53:39,549

And one night when I started to go home, I

989

00:53:39,549 --> 00:53:43,261

started to talk with God after many years,

990

00:53:43,261 --> 00:53:46,973

because when I was a little child, I prayed, but

991

00:53:46,973 --> 00:53:50,226

it was more like a formal prayer.

992

00:53:51,102 --> 00:53:56,274

But now I started to talk one-on-one with God and

993

00:53:56,274 --> 00:53:59,694

I said, "God, I know that you love me.

994

00:53:59,819 --> 00:54:02,405

I cannot understand why,

995

00:54:02,822 --> 00:54:04,616

because I'm such an awful person.

996

00:54:05,659 --> 00:54:08,662

I would like to love you and to love others, but

997

00:54:08,662 --> 00:54:11,247

I don't know how. Please teach me.

998

00:54:12,123 --> 00:54:14,960

If you want me, please accept me

999

00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,296

and work. Do something with me."

00:54:20,006 --> 00:54:22,509

And God started to do many, many

00:54:22,509 --> 00:54:25,011

things with me and in me, especially.

00:54:26,096 --> 00:54:28,431

So again, the Sermon on the Mountain was a

00:54:28,431 --> 00:54:30,725

stumbling block for me, like in the childhood.

00:54:31,559 --> 00:54:34,521

But the Holy Spirit convinced me that I should

00:54:34,521 --> 00:54:36,231

overcome this, I should obey,

00:54:36,439 --> 00:54:40,151

I should do what God is saying without being

00:54:40,151 --> 00:54:41,569

afraid of the consequences,

00:54:41,903 --> 00:54:45,949

without thinking too much about the consequences.

00:54:47,242 --> 00:54:49,619

It seems that is a theme of the

00:54:49,619 --> 00:54:51,788

story, is the Sermon on the Mountain,

00:54:51,830 --> 00:54:55,542

those hard teachings of Jesus, even all the way

00:54:55,542 --> 00:54:58,461

back to your great grandfather in the war,

00:54:58,461 --> 00:54:59,546

saying, "I don't have enemies."

00:55:00,338 --> 00:55:03,341

It's very hard and very courageous to do that.

00:55:04,426 --> 00:55:08,847

You're struggling with asking you'll receive and

00:55:08,847 --> 00:55:11,433

say, "Oh, that'll never happen."

00:55:11,933 --> 00:55:12,934

And then forgiving someone

00:55:12,934 --> 00:55:14,310

who's taken something from you.

00:55:14,978 --> 00:55:17,188

This is a theme that ran

00:55:17,188 --> 00:55:18,565

through your life for many years.

00:55:19,482 --> 00:55:22,110

What happens after you become a Christian?

00:55:22,527 --> 00:55:24,612

And I'm thinking particularly on those teachings

00:55:24,612 --> 00:55:26,364

of Christ, those hard teachings,

00:55:26,823 --> 00:55:28,241

especially the Sermon on the Mountain.

00:55:28,450 --> 00:55:31,828

But where do you go from there? Do you start? I'm

00:55:31,828 --> 00:55:33,496

sure a lot of things in your life changed.

00:55:35,165 --> 00:55:38,543

The first thing that changed in my life, it was

00:55:38,543 --> 00:55:41,671

the first very obvious thing.

00:55:41,963 --> 00:55:43,840

It was my relationship with my

00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,468

parents and my sister, with my family.

00:55:48,094 --> 00:55:50,555

I understood that the way of

00:55:50,555 --> 00:55:53,016

Christ is the way of love and peace.

00:55:54,142 --> 00:55:59,397

And I went home and I said to my family, "Look, I

00:55:59,397 --> 00:56:00,690

decided to follow Jesus.

00:56:01,775 --> 00:56:05,403

I am a very awful person. I did a lot of wrong. I

00:56:05,403 --> 00:56:07,155

rebelled against my parents.

00:56:07,155 --> 00:56:08,281

I was hating everybody,

00:56:08,698 --> 00:56:10,575

myself also, but others also.

00:56:11,785 --> 00:56:15,080

And I want to beg you, sorry, I

00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,832

want to ask your forgiveness for that.

00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:20,335

And I want to change. I want to

00:56:20,335 --> 00:56:23,379

love you and others from now on."

00:56:24,047 --> 00:56:25,173

And this was something

00:56:25,173 --> 00:56:28,009

strange in the sight of my parents.

00:56:28,676 --> 00:56:32,013

They thought that I had some

00:56:32,013 --> 00:56:35,767

medical condition. I became crazy.

00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:38,603

They really wanted to call the ambulance and to

00:56:38,603 --> 00:56:40,396

take it to a mental hospital.

00:56:41,981 --> 00:56:43,399

And I was saying to them, "Wait a

00:56:43,399 --> 00:56:46,820

minute. When I was coming home drunk

00:56:46,820 --> 00:56:50,657

and when I was saying and doing all those crazy

00:56:50,657 --> 00:56:52,575

things, you were not

00:56:52,575 --> 00:56:54,244

taking me to a mental hospital.

00:56:54,994 --> 00:56:59,082

I was crazy. I wasn't a normal person.

00:56:59,749 --> 00:57:01,459

But now when I'm coming home

00:57:01,459 --> 00:57:03,795

saying that I want your forgiveness

00:57:03,795 --> 00:57:07,215

and I also forgive you for all that you did,

00:57:07,215 --> 00:57:10,301

because in any family there are both ways.

00:57:10,552 --> 00:57:12,470

I have to forgive my parents

00:57:12,470 --> 00:57:14,222

from the depth of my heart,

00:57:14,222 --> 00:57:17,016

from many things what they did with each other,

00:57:17,267 --> 00:57:20,228

themselves and with us children.

00:57:21,104 --> 00:57:24,065

And now I'm crazy. How come that?"

00:57:26,901 --> 00:57:29,487

So they were not taking me to the...

00:57:29,988 --> 00:57:32,699

But they were very ashamed that, "Oh, we don't

00:57:32,699 --> 00:57:36,119

have this kind of religiously

00:57:36,119 --> 00:57:40,540

jealous people in our family. What we will tell

00:57:40,540 --> 00:57:42,292

to other people, what happened?"

00:57:42,625 --> 00:57:44,294

And when I decided to get

00:57:44,294 --> 00:57:46,504

baptized, they were even more ashamed.

00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,800

They felt the pressure from the broader community

00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,345

that, "What is your son doing? He's crazy.

00:57:54,804 --> 00:57:57,265

Why is he leaving his religion?"

00:57:58,057 --> 00:58:01,811

And I said, "I never left my religion. I was an

00:58:01,811 --> 00:58:04,105

atheist. That's not really a religion.

00:58:04,731 --> 00:58:09,068

I was baptized as a child, but it was not my

00:58:09,068 --> 00:58:11,279

decision. It was not a biblical thing.

00:58:11,988 --> 00:58:13,323

And now I'm following

00:58:13,323 --> 00:58:16,576

Jesus in obedience, in baptism.

00:58:17,785 --> 00:58:24,083

And I'm starting my religious life if you want to

00:58:24,083 --> 00:58:25,710

understand it like that.

00:58:26,544 --> 00:58:32,467

And I have no depth to the Church or anything,

00:58:32,842 --> 00:58:35,053

because if the Church will do,

00:58:35,261 --> 00:58:38,848

in a responsible way, [indistinct], I will not

00:58:38,848 --> 00:58:40,767

become that kind of atheist.

00:58:41,809 --> 00:58:45,021

Now I know that I could become, of course, but

00:58:45,021 --> 00:58:47,899

that was my thought at that time.

00:58:47,899 --> 00:58:50,276

That was my reply. It was not

00:58:50,276 --> 00:58:52,946

totally correct, but that's what I said.

00:58:53,988 --> 00:58:56,741

And my parents and my small

00:58:56,741 --> 00:59:00,453

family later, behind my back,

00:59:01,079 --> 00:59:04,999

they started to boast with me in

00:59:04,999 --> 00:59:08,419

front of their friends and relatives,

00:59:08,795 --> 00:59:11,130

because they were saying, "Oh, our son is not

00:59:11,130 --> 00:59:14,550

drinking. He's having a normal life.

00:59:14,550 --> 00:59:16,678

He's studying at the school," because the other

00:59:16,678 --> 00:59:17,845

parents were starting to

00:59:17,845 --> 00:59:19,639

complain about their children

00:59:19,806 --> 00:59:23,017

doing crazy stuff. And in front

00:59:23,017 --> 00:59:25,979

of me, my parents were blaming me.

00:59:26,312 --> 00:59:28,106

"You are not a good Christian. You are only

00:59:28,106 --> 00:59:29,732

talking," and this and that.

00:59:30,024 --> 00:59:33,069

But behind my back, they are very proud of me.

00:59:33,403 --> 00:59:34,696

After a couple of years.

00:59:36,155 --> 00:59:39,867

Yeah. So going down this path,

00:59:40,118 --> 00:59:43,121

you're learning about Christianity.

00:59:43,496 --> 00:59:45,790

You're changing a lot of things in your life.

00:59:46,791 --> 00:59:49,460

And last night, when we were just talking a bit

00:59:49,460 --> 00:59:52,088

before we sat down and did this,

00:59:52,797 --> 00:59:54,132

you mentioned how significant

00:59:54,132 --> 00:59:56,384

the Sermon on the Mount was, or is,

00:59:57,176 --> 00:59:58,553

and you've already hit how that

00:59:58,553 --> 01:00:00,138

theme is running through the story.

01:00:00,138 --> 01:00:02,390

But where does that start

01:00:02,390 --> 01:00:03,766

coming into your Christian journey?

01:00:03,808 --> 01:00:06,602

I know you spend a lot of time studying it. Talk

01:00:06,602 --> 01:00:07,687

to me about that, because

01:00:07,687 --> 01:00:09,439

that gets pretty radical.

01:00:09,897 --> 01:00:14,819

When I became a Christian, I started to meet a

01:00:14,819 --> 01:00:16,237

lot of young Christians,

01:00:18,614 --> 01:00:21,159

most of them older in their faith

01:00:21,159 --> 01:00:24,078

than me, with much more experience.

01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:27,206

And I started to listen to them.

01:00:27,373 --> 01:00:30,084

I learned a lot through them also,

01:00:31,210 --> 01:00:34,047

but even more so through some older

01:00:34,047 --> 01:00:37,467

Christians whose faith was proven.

01:00:38,217 --> 01:00:41,471

I had the blessing, the opportunity to meet some

01:00:41,471 --> 01:00:45,099

old brothers who were in communist prisons.

01:00:45,767 --> 01:00:49,896

They were all over 80 years.

01:00:51,814 --> 01:00:57,445

Some of them were in the same prison or for some

01:00:57,445 --> 01:01:00,740

time in the same room as

01:01:00,740 --> 01:01:03,201

Richard Wurmbrand, brother Richard.

01:01:03,785 --> 01:01:06,245

And they heard a lot of their stories, a lot of

01:01:06,245 --> 01:01:08,456

their experience, but I saw their character.

01:01:09,415 --> 01:01:15,004

And the biggest thing for me, what I was amazed,

01:01:15,380 --> 01:01:16,422

one of the old brothers,

01:01:16,798 --> 01:01:19,675

he was about 83 or 84 at that

01:01:19,675 --> 01:01:23,388

time, how he was treating his wife.

01:01:24,806 --> 01:01:26,891

His wife was also around 80.

01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,269

And when I saw them together, I realized these

01:01:30,269 --> 01:01:33,648

people are loving each other more

01:01:33,648 --> 01:01:36,442

than anybody I saw loving each other.

01:01:36,943 --> 01:01:41,364

Until that, I was very unsatisfied with what I

01:01:41,364 --> 01:01:42,949

saw around me in marriages,

01:01:43,825 --> 01:01:47,703

disappointed, and I said to myself that I don't

01:01:47,703 --> 01:01:49,705

want to be married any time,

01:01:49,997 --> 01:01:52,834

because it's not working anywhere.

01:01:53,334 --> 01:01:56,963

But I saw these old Christians loving each other

01:01:56,963 --> 01:01:59,048

more than I see a lot of

01:01:59,048 --> 01:02:02,009

young dudes loving each other.

01:02:02,343 --> 01:02:06,597

And I said, "Wow, is this real? If this kind of

01:02:06,597 --> 01:02:08,391

love exists, I want it."

01:02:09,016 --> 01:02:12,854

And the young Christians, some of them were

01:02:12,854 --> 01:02:17,608

trying to help me by inviting me to read this

01:02:17,608 --> 01:02:20,278

author or that or this book or that.

01:02:20,736 --> 01:02:23,239

And I was very afraid. I said, "What kind of book

01:02:23,239 --> 01:02:24,782

is that? What kind of author

01:02:24,782 --> 01:02:27,368

is that? I don't trust them."

01:02:28,077 --> 01:02:31,205

Because before that, I read a lot of books and

01:02:31,205 --> 01:02:33,666

authors, not too many, but a couple of crazy

01:02:33,666 --> 01:02:36,002

books and authors like Sigmund

01:02:36,002 --> 01:02:37,795

Freud or some other things like that.

01:02:37,795 --> 01:02:42,091

And I said, "No, no, no. I will not read any book

01:02:42,091 --> 01:02:44,427

you are giving to me. I

01:02:44,427 --> 01:02:46,637

have only one, the scripture.

01:02:47,263 --> 01:02:51,350

I want to read it as much as I can. I want to

01:02:51,350 --> 01:02:55,605

understand it as well as I can until the point

01:02:55,605 --> 01:03:02,028

when I become confident that now I can see the

01:03:02,028 --> 01:03:05,781

errors in the books of what I will read."

01:03:06,782 --> 01:03:10,328

Because I don't want to take the errors on only

01:03:10,328 --> 01:03:12,622

the good things from those books, but how can I

01:03:12,622 --> 01:03:14,749

know which is the error and which is the good

01:03:14,749 --> 01:03:16,167

thing if I don't know the scripture?

01:03:17,126 --> 01:03:21,297

And I started to read the scripture. And when I

01:03:21,297 --> 01:03:24,133

heard about the request of

01:03:24,133 --> 01:03:27,345

Solomon to give God to give him wisdom,

01:03:27,803 --> 01:03:33,059

and I also read some similar things in the letter

01:03:33,059 --> 01:03:36,062

of James, "Those who don't have wisdom." I said,

01:03:36,062 --> 01:03:38,856

"God, I am the person who does not have wisdom.

01:03:38,856 --> 01:03:41,859

I'm a foolish person. I need wisdom.

01:03:42,610 --> 01:03:45,279

And first and most, I need the wisdom to

01:03:45,279 --> 01:03:46,572

understand your word.

01:03:47,448 --> 01:03:50,785

Please answer to my request."

01:03:50,785 --> 01:03:54,539

And when I said that prayer, I was going home

01:03:54,539 --> 01:03:57,375

from a church meeting. I knew in my

01:03:57,375 --> 01:04:00,211

heart that God granted my request.

01:04:00,419 --> 01:04:05,174

I received wisdom to understand the Word of God.

01:04:06,092 --> 01:04:08,427

And after a couple of years of reading the

01:04:08,427 --> 01:04:09,679

scriptures, I started to

01:04:09,679 --> 01:04:11,806

read other literature also.

01:04:12,807 --> 01:04:17,478

But I saw many errors in many of those books. And

01:04:17,478 --> 01:04:21,065

seeing what's happening in the church, I realized

01:04:21,065 --> 01:04:25,820

that we as Christians, we are not obeying the

01:04:25,820 --> 01:04:29,657

Lord in the most basic and most fundamental

01:04:29,657 --> 01:04:32,743

requests, commandments of His.

01:04:32,785 --> 01:04:35,997

We are not to have, of course, fulfilling

01:04:35,997 --> 01:04:40,084

hundreds of Old Testament laws and directions,

01:04:40,084 --> 01:04:44,672

but we have a new law that's given by Christ and

01:04:44,672 --> 01:04:46,299

provided to the apostles.

01:04:46,424 --> 01:04:49,093

The apostles had the mission to teach everybody

01:04:49,093 --> 01:04:53,889

to obey whatever Christ told them. And what is

01:04:53,889 --> 01:04:55,766

what Christ taught them?

01:04:55,808 --> 01:04:59,478

We have it in a condensed

01:04:59,478 --> 01:05:01,480

version in the Sermon on the Mountain.

01:05:02,273 --> 01:05:06,736

And I started to get involved in more and more

01:05:06,736 --> 01:05:08,779

mission work, church,

01:05:09,155 --> 01:05:11,866

service, and everything I could.

01:05:11,866 --> 01:05:18,539

I wanted to show my gratitude toward God because

01:05:18,539 --> 01:05:21,208

of how many things He forgave me.

01:05:21,792 --> 01:05:25,129

And when I heard that those who were forgiven

01:05:25,129 --> 01:05:28,758

more, they loved more. And I said, "Oh God, I

01:05:28,758 --> 01:05:32,762

don't know anybody who was forgiven more than me.

01:05:33,137 --> 01:05:34,972

I want to love you the most."

01:05:35,806 --> 01:05:42,021

And many times I got in the other extreme, I was

01:05:42,021 --> 01:05:46,359

very zealous and I was doing a lot of things, but

01:05:46,359 --> 01:05:48,778

I was realizing maybe I'm doing,

01:05:49,028 --> 01:05:51,781

but I'm not doing the right way.

01:05:54,325 --> 01:06:00,456

And there was a year in my life, I was a couple

01:06:00,456 --> 01:06:04,001

of years in my Christian work, when I said,

01:06:04,251 --> 01:06:06,671

"Okay, back to the basics, back to the origin."

01:06:08,798 --> 01:06:14,178

And I said, "In this year I will only read and

01:06:14,178 --> 01:06:19,684

meditate and try to apply as much as I can the

01:06:19,684 --> 01:06:20,768

Sermon on the Mountain."

01:06:21,477 --> 01:06:24,355

And I was reading it in my family and all over

01:06:24,355 --> 01:06:26,107

the place and I was quoting from

01:06:26,107 --> 01:06:28,943

that. And I was struggling, of course.

01:06:29,235 --> 01:06:32,488

I'm still struggling with a lot of things which I

01:06:32,488 --> 01:06:37,660

find there. But at least I cannot say that I

01:06:37,660 --> 01:06:40,496

don't know what Jesus meant.

01:06:41,122 --> 01:06:45,251

I'm not saying that I know in depth and all the

01:06:45,251 --> 01:06:51,465

facets of what Jesus was saying there, but most

01:06:51,465 --> 01:06:54,552

of the time I realized that in my life and in the

01:06:54,552 --> 01:06:57,805

life of other Christians, the problem is not that

01:06:57,805 --> 01:06:59,849

we don't know the will of God.

01:07:00,474 --> 01:07:03,644

The problem is that we don't want to do the will

01:07:03,644 --> 01:07:07,231

of God. We do it at a certain level, which is

01:07:07,231 --> 01:07:08,774

comfortable enough for us.

01:07:08,816 --> 01:07:13,279

But when it's too provoking, too challenging for

01:07:13,279 --> 01:07:16,073

us, we say, "Oh, that's it."

01:07:16,365 --> 01:07:20,411

An entire year on the Sermon on the Mountain,

01:07:21,579 --> 01:07:23,581

reading it and studying it,

01:07:24,582 --> 01:07:25,791

that must have been incredible.

01:07:26,459 --> 01:07:28,836

I realized that after a couple of years of

01:07:28,836 --> 01:07:31,505

Christianity, I'm still

01:07:31,505 --> 01:07:34,216

very close to the level zero.

01:07:36,802 --> 01:07:41,056

Before that I was in minus, I don't know what,

01:07:41,724 --> 01:07:43,851

but I'm still very close to

01:07:43,851 --> 01:07:47,146

the level zero of discipleship.

01:07:47,855 --> 01:07:52,067

Because Jesus is saying that whenever you do all

01:07:52,067 --> 01:07:56,572

what I commanded you, or God commanded you, you

01:07:56,572 --> 01:08:00,868

should say that you are unworthy servants because

01:08:00,868 --> 01:08:04,789

you only did what God commanded you.

01:08:05,247 --> 01:08:07,917

So I said, "Okay, I didn't do

01:08:07,917 --> 01:08:10,002

everything what God commands me."

01:08:10,628 --> 01:08:14,298

So I'm very close to level zero, but not on the

01:08:14,298 --> 01:08:17,218

positive side, on the negative side still.

01:08:18,803 --> 01:08:22,890

Because when I'm a faithful servant and just do

01:08:22,890 --> 01:08:25,768

whatever is commanded, then I start to be obedient.

01:08:26,811 --> 01:08:30,773

From that one I have to grow on and do some other

01:08:30,773 --> 01:08:31,816

things which are not

01:08:31,816 --> 01:08:34,527

commanded, which I can do it from love.

01:08:35,402 --> 01:08:40,282

Like Paul is saying that I'm preaching the gospel

01:08:40,282 --> 01:08:43,285

freely, not because I am commanded to do that,

01:08:43,619 --> 01:08:45,204

but I want to do some extra.

01:08:45,830 --> 01:08:53,879

Or when Mary was pouring the incense, the oil on

01:08:53,879 --> 01:08:56,257

Jesus, she was not commanded to do that.

01:08:56,257 --> 01:08:58,092

That was an act of love. That was

01:08:58,092 --> 01:09:00,261

a normal and natural act of love.

01:09:01,470 --> 01:09:06,308

But if I'm not obedient on basic things, how can

01:09:06,308 --> 01:09:10,062

I say that I'm giving some sacrifice, I'm doing

01:09:10,062 --> 01:09:11,772

some great acts of love,

01:09:11,814 --> 01:09:19,238

but I'm not yet doing what I have to do, what

01:09:19,238 --> 01:09:22,950

that will be normal for a servant to do.

01:09:23,534 --> 01:09:26,871

Maybe I'm not understanding it well, but this

01:09:26,871 --> 01:09:30,791

was, and still this is somehow my reasoning.

01:09:30,791 --> 01:09:36,130

And I still think that that's

01:09:36,130 --> 01:09:39,216

why Christianity is very weak.

01:09:39,550 --> 01:09:44,680

My Christianity, and as a system, many times we

01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:47,808

are weak because of this, because we don't

01:09:47,808 --> 01:09:54,773

consider it to obey God in all his commands.

01:09:55,816 --> 01:10:00,362

So I'm guessing you would encourage people

01:10:00,362 --> 01:10:04,199

listening to this to go back to those basics and

01:10:04,199 --> 01:10:07,161

really dig into that and say what is

01:10:07,161 --> 01:10:09,038

Jesus asking us to do in our lives?

01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:13,000

How would you articulate that? Let's say

01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:14,376

someone's listening to this and they're like, "Oh

01:10:14,376 --> 01:10:18,130

yeah, this is making sense. How do I get back to

01:10:18,130 --> 01:10:19,798

those basics? How do I become obedient?"

01:10:20,799 --> 01:10:24,011

It's very, very difficult. I don't want to be

01:10:24,011 --> 01:10:26,639

judgmental with others at

01:10:26,639 --> 01:10:29,058

least. I can judge myself.

01:10:29,558 --> 01:10:32,978

And if I'm judging myself correctly, and that

01:10:32,978 --> 01:10:37,608

leads to repentance and accepting of grace and

01:10:37,608 --> 01:10:41,779

becoming more obedient, that's a good process.

01:10:42,780 --> 01:10:46,951

I don't want to judge others, but we have to

01:10:46,951 --> 01:10:48,911

judge ourselves as a

01:10:48,911 --> 01:10:50,829

community, not only as a person.

01:10:51,455 --> 01:10:54,750

And I think it's not a bad thing when I say

01:10:54,750 --> 01:10:58,963

something bad about my nation, but in a

01:10:58,963 --> 01:11:02,800

constructive way, that I see that this is bad.

01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,511

This is how God sees us, and

01:11:05,511 --> 01:11:07,137

we have to repent from that.

01:11:07,596 --> 01:11:11,100

When I say something about our community, our

01:11:11,100 --> 01:11:14,019

church, our denomination, or whatever, in a

01:11:14,019 --> 01:11:17,147

constructive way, that this is not working, this

01:11:17,147 --> 01:11:19,775

is not correct, we should change, we should grow.

01:11:19,817 --> 01:11:24,238

And of course, we have to say all these things

01:11:24,238 --> 01:11:27,449

with pain in our heart, and with love, and with

01:11:27,449 --> 01:11:32,246

patience, and in a prayerful spirit.

01:11:33,372 --> 01:11:37,918

But probably in the life of many, the problem is

01:11:37,918 --> 01:11:39,795

something similar, like in my life.

01:11:40,796 --> 01:11:46,802

I'm very weak, and I'm tempted to cover this. I

01:11:46,802 --> 01:11:50,139

am a coward from my old nature.

01:11:51,140 --> 01:11:53,684

And many Christians are afraid of the

01:11:53,684 --> 01:11:57,354

consequences. What will happen if I will obey God

01:11:57,354 --> 01:11:59,523

in this or that or that regard?

01:12:00,983 --> 01:12:06,030

And Jesus is rebuking the disciples because they

01:12:06,030 --> 01:12:10,159

are afraid, they are anxious. He is rebuking us

01:12:10,159 --> 01:12:13,495

many times because of this, and the Holy Spirit

01:12:13,495 --> 01:12:15,289

is rebuking us a lot of times.

01:12:16,206 --> 01:12:21,045

And in the book of Revelation, we have that

01:12:21,045 --> 01:12:23,797

the cowards will not enter in the kingdom of God.

01:12:24,798 --> 01:12:32,556

So if we are afraid not to proclaim Jesus, not to

01:12:32,556 --> 01:12:38,437

testify about Him, not to obey Him in this wicked

01:12:38,437 --> 01:12:43,817

and adulterous generation, then we

01:12:43,817 --> 01:12:45,778

are not worthy of the kingdom of God.

01:12:46,779 --> 01:12:50,908

So many times our problem is right at the

01:12:50,908 --> 01:12:53,702

beginning of the sermon on the mountain. Blessed

01:12:53,702 --> 01:12:57,956

are those who are poor in spirit.

01:12:59,333 --> 01:13:02,169

And we say, "Okay, what it means to be poor in

01:13:02,169 --> 01:13:05,714

spirit?" Wait a minute, brother. We know very

01:13:05,714 --> 01:13:08,759

well what it means in a practical way.

01:13:09,802 --> 01:13:13,055

Because in the other gospel Jesus says to His

01:13:13,055 --> 01:13:17,935

disciples, "Blessed are you poor." How the

01:13:17,935 --> 01:13:19,937

disciples became poor? Because

01:13:19,937 --> 01:13:22,231

they were not poor originally.

01:13:23,273 --> 01:13:26,193

They were having small businesses, boats, houses,

01:13:26,193 --> 01:13:29,029

everything. And they said, "We gave up everything

01:13:29,029 --> 01:13:31,240

for you." Why? Because Jesus

01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:33,784

said, "So come and follow me."

01:13:34,409 --> 01:13:40,249

Matthew left His place at the taxes. Peter and

01:13:40,249 --> 01:13:43,877

the others, John left their nets and their boats.

01:13:44,628 --> 01:13:48,507

And they became poor because of the gospel.

01:13:49,049 --> 01:13:52,219

They became poor for the spirit. They were

01:13:52,219 --> 01:13:55,931

spiritual poor because there are a lot of people

01:13:55,931 --> 01:13:57,432

who are poor, but they are not spiritual.

01:13:58,809 --> 01:14:01,979

They are not poor for the spirit, in the spirit,

01:14:01,979 --> 01:14:04,565

because of the spirit. They are poor because they

01:14:04,565 --> 01:14:10,070

are lazy, or they have some addictions, or they

01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:12,865

are poor because there is a war, or there is some

01:14:12,865 --> 01:14:13,782

struggle, some difficulty.

01:14:14,783 --> 01:14:16,618

They are poor because they are sick. There are

01:14:16,618 --> 01:14:21,540

many reasons to be poor. But the disciples, to

01:14:21,540 --> 01:14:25,669

whom the Sermon on the mountain was given, they

01:14:25,669 --> 01:14:29,840

were all poor for one reason. Because they gave

01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:31,383

up everything for Jesus.

01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:36,221

And Jesus is not teaching the whole crowd when He

01:14:36,221 --> 01:14:39,224

is giving the Sermon. He is teaching the

01:14:39,224 --> 01:14:41,185

disciples, "Blessed are you poor."

01:14:41,977 --> 01:14:44,605

So if we put in parallel, "Blessed are those who

01:14:44,605 --> 01:14:47,941

are poor in the spirit." You are in the spirit,

01:14:48,192 --> 01:14:51,069

and because of that you are poor. Because you

01:14:51,069 --> 01:14:54,865

received Christ's spirit. Christ was also poor.

01:14:54,865 --> 01:14:56,617

He was saying that, "I don't

01:14:56,617 --> 01:14:57,784

have a place where to sleep."

01:14:58,785 --> 01:15:03,248

His clothes were taken, and He became more poor

01:15:03,248 --> 01:15:07,336

on the cross. He had no clothes. He had nothing.

01:15:09,922 --> 01:15:11,924

And blessed are those, and we

01:15:11,924 --> 01:15:15,177

are afraid. Material security.

01:15:17,095 --> 01:15:21,350

Is there such a thing as material security? Who

01:15:21,350 --> 01:15:24,603

wants us to believe that there is such a thing as

01:15:24,603 --> 01:15:28,232

material security? Christ or the world? Satan.

01:15:29,274 --> 01:15:33,362

My family's material security was the land, the

01:15:33,362 --> 01:15:40,118

animals, the means of working the land. Carts and

01:15:40,118 --> 01:15:41,078

ploughs and everything.

01:15:41,745 --> 01:15:43,789

Everything was taken just like this.

01:15:44,790 --> 01:15:50,337

And my ancestors became very poor in an instance.

01:15:51,338 --> 01:15:56,969

And they started to work like the lowest class of

01:15:56,969 --> 01:16:02,724

people to the co-hosts for the state. And they

01:16:02,724 --> 01:16:04,768

were paid poorly because of that.

01:16:06,019 --> 01:16:10,023

And you read about these kinds of people in the

01:16:10,023 --> 01:16:14,778

Scriptures. When you received with joy, when your

01:16:14,778 --> 01:16:17,781

wealth was taken away from you. And those were

01:16:17,781 --> 01:16:19,658

really Christians, they were really disciples.

01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:22,744

My family, they were not disciples. They were not

01:16:22,744 --> 01:16:25,289

obeying God, because they had no joy. Everything

01:16:25,289 --> 01:16:27,666

was taken away, and they became bitter and

01:16:27,666 --> 01:16:29,501

resentful and alcoholic and

01:16:29,501 --> 01:16:30,794

cursing and everything like that.

01:16:30,794 --> 01:16:34,631

So this was not the way of Christ. The other is

01:16:34,631 --> 01:16:37,175

the narrow way of Christ begins with the

01:16:37,175 --> 01:16:39,761

beginning of the sermon. But blessed are those

01:16:39,761 --> 01:16:42,764

who are poor. Those who are spiritual poor.

01:16:42,806 --> 01:16:47,102

And it doesn't mean, as I understand, because we

01:16:47,102 --> 01:16:51,356

have to understand the whole picture, this issue

01:16:51,356 --> 01:16:55,235

is touched in many ways.

01:16:56,612 --> 01:17:00,657

Jesus was saying to one of the rich guy, "Sell

01:17:00,657 --> 01:17:04,745

your wealth and give it to the poor." And we

01:17:04,745 --> 01:17:06,788

think that this is kind of a missionary way.

01:17:06,830 --> 01:17:11,418

No, no, those poor people to whom you give your

01:17:11,418 --> 01:17:14,880

wealth, they will be poor the next day or the

01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:18,133

next week. Because they will spend that money

01:17:18,133 --> 01:17:21,303

very fast and many times very foolishly.

01:17:21,803 --> 01:17:26,391

But you, you became free. For that person, the

01:17:26,391 --> 01:17:30,479

wealth was abundant. He was not able to think

01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:33,523

freely about obeying God. Because all the time he

01:17:33,523 --> 01:17:34,983

said, "Okay, if I will do this,

01:17:35,233 --> 01:17:36,568

what will happen with my wealth?"

01:17:37,069 --> 01:17:40,197

Or my social status or anything like that, you

01:17:40,197 --> 01:17:43,700

are in abundance. Get free. Get free. And when

01:17:43,700 --> 01:17:48,872

Jesus said, "Better cut your hand or your pluck

01:17:48,872 --> 01:17:51,500

out your eye or whatever," he

01:17:51,500 --> 01:17:53,794

doesn't want us to mutilate ourselves.

01:17:53,835 --> 01:17:57,339

It's a sin to mutilate yourself in the scripture.

01:17:57,964 --> 01:17:59,925

Because your body is the temple of the Holy

01:17:59,925 --> 01:18:04,554

Spirit. But he's saying how serious we should be

01:18:04,554 --> 01:18:08,183

about getting free from everything which is

01:18:08,183 --> 01:18:11,269

holding us back from following Christ freely.

01:18:12,813 --> 01:18:16,692

That's how I understand it. And when Zacchaeus

01:18:16,692 --> 01:18:21,196

gave only half of his wealth to the poor, Jesus

01:18:21,196 --> 01:18:23,281

was not saying, "No, no, no, wait a minute,

01:18:23,657 --> 01:18:26,159

Zacchaeus, there is another half. Give it and

01:18:26,159 --> 01:18:27,786

then you will be received in the kingdom."

01:18:27,828 --> 01:18:31,998

No, he said, "Okay, you are in the kingdom. This

01:18:31,998 --> 01:18:35,836

house is in the kingdom." Because he showed that

01:18:35,836 --> 01:18:39,214

he is free. And I don't want to enter into that,

01:18:39,214 --> 01:18:41,800

but there are some interesting details there.

01:18:42,509 --> 01:18:45,429

And when Lydia or some other rich Christians

01:18:45,429 --> 01:18:48,890

received the gospel, they were not selling

01:18:48,890 --> 01:18:53,145

everything. But they were not holding it for

01:18:53,145 --> 01:18:54,729

themselves. They were not

01:18:54,729 --> 01:18:55,772

using it for themselves.

01:18:55,814 --> 01:18:59,860

Those who have had it, it's not theirs. Those who

01:18:59,860 --> 01:19:03,196

have wives or houses or wealth or whatever. They

01:19:03,196 --> 01:19:06,950

became only the administrators, only faithful

01:19:06,950 --> 01:19:10,829

servants with those. And everything is God's.

01:19:10,829 --> 01:19:12,372

Anyway, it's his property.

01:19:12,789 --> 01:19:16,543

But it's another thing to recognize it and accept

01:19:16,543 --> 01:19:20,922

it and rejoice in it. Accept it with some

01:19:20,922 --> 01:19:24,217

bitterness or resentfulness. Rejoice in it that,

01:19:24,426 --> 01:19:27,846

"Oh God, thank you. I don't have to worry anymore

01:19:28,638 --> 01:19:32,726

for my wealth, for the lands and for the house or

01:19:32,726 --> 01:19:37,564

for whatever. It's your worry. I have to worry

01:19:37,564 --> 01:19:40,275

only for one thing how to obey you."

01:19:40,817 --> 01:19:44,362

And if during that process, while I obey you, I

01:19:44,362 --> 01:19:47,199

will lose everything or all these things will be

01:19:47,199 --> 01:19:50,410

destroyed. I don't care because everything will

01:19:50,410 --> 01:19:54,873

be destroyed anyways. But if my soul is growing

01:19:54,873 --> 01:19:58,627

in your love and your obedience towards you or

01:19:58,627 --> 01:20:01,546

others are saved during the process while I'm

01:20:01,546 --> 01:20:03,423

losing all the stuff or the

01:20:03,423 --> 01:20:05,759

material, it's not a problem. It's my joy.

01:20:06,801 --> 01:20:12,015

That's how I understand. And there are a lot of

01:20:12,015 --> 01:20:16,353

details, a lot of practical parts. I'm not saying

01:20:16,353 --> 01:20:21,817

that I'm still struggling. But I want to

01:20:21,817 --> 01:20:25,403

struggle. I don't want to say, "Oh, you have to

01:20:25,403 --> 01:20:27,864

understand it this way. You are poor in the

01:20:27,864 --> 01:20:29,991

spirit when you recognize that

01:20:29,991 --> 01:20:31,493

you need God for everything."

01:20:32,285 --> 01:20:34,871

Okay, everybody recognizes this who is a little

01:20:34,871 --> 01:20:37,749

bit sincere with himself. But you didn't do

01:20:37,749 --> 01:20:40,502

anything about it. It's not making

01:20:40,502 --> 01:20:42,796

any practical change in your life.

01:20:44,005 --> 01:20:50,512

You're describing a real journey for a lot of

01:20:50,512 --> 01:20:54,349

people to go on this path that you outlined

01:20:54,349 --> 01:21:00,105

through the Sermon on the Mount, that deep-seated

01:21:00,105 --> 01:21:04,734

obedience to Christ and what he says. And to the

01:21:04,734 --> 01:21:06,111

freedom that you described

01:21:06,111 --> 01:21:07,779

of letting these things go.

01:21:09,406 --> 01:21:12,993

I'm sure there are people listening that are

01:21:12,993 --> 01:21:14,703

struggling with how do I even start a journey

01:21:14,703 --> 01:21:16,830

like that. What would you

01:21:16,830 --> 01:21:18,873

tell them? How do they start?

01:21:20,166 --> 01:21:25,589

With a knife. It's just symbolic, what I say. But

01:21:25,589 --> 01:21:32,387

I was young in my faith and I had a small pocket

01:21:32,387 --> 01:21:33,930

knife. It was not like

01:21:33,930 --> 01:21:34,764

this. It was a Swiss knife.

01:21:35,807 --> 01:21:41,646

I bought it with my own money and I liked it a

01:21:41,646 --> 01:21:46,693

lot. I was using it every day as a farmer, guy.

01:21:46,985 --> 01:21:50,155

And even when I was in the city, at the school,

01:21:50,864 --> 01:21:52,782

when I was eating and doing all that stuff.

01:21:53,783 --> 01:22:01,374

And one time my sister took it and she was

01:22:01,374 --> 01:22:06,630

cutting something which destroyed the edge of my

01:22:06,630 --> 01:22:11,551

knife. And I was very angry with my sister. And

01:22:11,551 --> 01:22:15,388

the Holy Spirit convinced me

01:22:15,388 --> 01:22:17,766

that this is a sin. Why am I angry?

01:22:17,807 --> 01:22:22,938

And I was ashamed. I'm sorry God. I can be so

01:22:22,938 --> 01:22:26,775

angry with my sister for such a small thing as a

01:22:26,775 --> 01:22:31,488

knife. And I realized that I was so angry because

01:22:31,488 --> 01:22:34,783

in my heart I was saying, "That's my knife."

01:22:35,784 --> 01:22:39,621

You cannot take it like that. You cannot treat it

01:22:39,621 --> 01:22:44,751

like that. I was very diligent on how to make it

01:22:44,751 --> 01:22:48,171

to be very sharp and to maintain it sharp and

01:22:48,171 --> 01:22:51,007

clean and everything like that. And you are

01:22:51,007 --> 01:22:53,760

treating it like any other knife.

01:22:57,013 --> 01:23:01,685

And I realized that this is pride. This is

01:23:01,685 --> 01:23:06,940

disobedience. This is lack of love to my sister

01:23:06,940 --> 01:23:11,820

and to God. These small things have many shows,

01:23:12,070 --> 01:23:14,781

many sinful things in my life.

01:23:15,782 --> 01:23:19,327

And I was repenting and I was saying, "God, I'm

01:23:19,327 --> 01:23:22,789

so sorry. I don't know why I'm like this. But

01:23:22,789 --> 01:23:27,252

please change my heart. Or if you want, take that

01:23:27,252 --> 01:23:28,545

knife away from me. It's

01:23:28,545 --> 01:23:29,796

yours. It's not mine anymore."

01:23:32,048 --> 01:23:36,136

And in a couple of days something happened and I

01:23:36,136 --> 01:23:39,013

lost my knife. I was taking care so much, but

01:23:39,013 --> 01:23:41,391

something happened. And I don't know even today

01:23:41,391 --> 01:23:46,396

where that knife is. I don't care. Probably it's

01:23:46,396 --> 01:23:48,523

in better hands than mine.

01:23:50,150 --> 01:23:56,239

But giving up freely things which are causing us

01:23:56,239 --> 01:24:01,161

to be unwilling to love, unwilling to follow,

01:24:01,411 --> 01:24:04,998

unwilling to obey. Giving up small things at the

01:24:04,998 --> 01:24:08,001

beginning. And praise God

01:24:08,001 --> 01:24:09,794

I saw some good examples.

01:24:11,212 --> 01:24:17,427

One of my friends, he was having three horses and

01:24:17,427 --> 01:24:21,639

he realized that he had not enough time for his

01:24:21,639 --> 01:24:23,850

marriage and for his

01:24:23,850 --> 01:24:25,852

children because of those horses.

01:24:27,061 --> 01:24:29,856

And the Spirit of the Lord convinced him that he

01:24:29,856 --> 01:24:34,027

has to give up. And he gave one of the horses to

01:24:34,027 --> 01:24:37,197

me as a gift. I was amazed how you give a horse,

01:24:37,197 --> 01:24:39,199

a very good horse just like that.

01:24:39,783 --> 01:24:42,535

And he sold one and he gave the other one to

01:24:42,535 --> 01:24:46,289

another brother as a gift. He wanted to get rid

01:24:46,289 --> 01:24:50,168

of the horses because he understood that it's a

01:24:50,168 --> 01:24:52,378

distraction. It's holding

01:24:52,378 --> 01:24:54,172

him back from following Christ.

01:24:55,799 --> 01:25:01,554

And even the mission work sometimes can be like

01:25:01,554 --> 01:25:06,351

that. We have to give up even the best things in

01:25:06,351 --> 01:25:09,771

our life to get closer to God.

01:25:10,814 --> 01:25:14,400

And I was wondering how it was for apostle Paul

01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:18,988

to be in the prison for years before that he was

01:25:18,988 --> 01:25:20,490

so active on the mission

01:25:20,490 --> 01:25:22,784

field and now he's in one cell.

01:25:22,826 --> 01:25:29,207

I don't know exactly, but I know from all

01:25:29,207 --> 01:25:31,751

Christian brothers who were in communist prisons

01:25:31,751 --> 01:25:35,922

about what their experience was. They were saying

01:25:35,922 --> 01:25:38,216

that some of them were pastors.

01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:41,636

Their church, their parish was taken away. Their

01:25:41,636 --> 01:25:44,514

family was taken away. Even their clothes were

01:25:44,514 --> 01:25:47,308

taken away. Everything, their freedom, their

01:25:47,308 --> 01:25:49,143

human dignity was taken

01:25:49,143 --> 01:25:50,770

away. Everything was taken away.

01:25:50,812 --> 01:25:53,940

The only thing that the communists were not able

01:25:53,940 --> 01:25:58,111

to take him away was Jesus. And they were sitting

01:25:58,111 --> 01:26:01,823

in those prisons and they were saying afterwards

01:26:01,823 --> 01:26:05,702

that those were the most happy and most free and

01:26:05,702 --> 01:26:08,413

most fulfilling moments of their lives.

01:26:09,038 --> 01:26:12,584

Because they found out really in a practical way

01:26:12,584 --> 01:26:17,255

that in Jesus they had everything. And they have

01:26:17,255 --> 01:26:20,091

more than they imagined they had.

01:26:21,134 --> 01:26:25,430

And most of these people were having mortal

01:26:25,430 --> 01:26:29,642

diseases, so deadly conditions in the prisons.

01:26:30,143 --> 01:26:31,769

Most of them survived and they were living.

01:26:32,812 --> 01:26:36,608

Yeah, of course, some died in the prison, but a

01:26:36,608 --> 01:26:39,360

lot of them survived and they were living for

01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:42,280

more than 80 years, more most of them.

01:26:43,406 --> 01:26:45,950

They were not having money for medicine. They

01:26:45,950 --> 01:26:49,704

were not having proper food, proper clothing,

01:26:49,996 --> 01:26:52,457

proper anything, but they were having Jesus.

01:26:52,832 --> 01:27:00,340

And the Lord made them satisfied with that

01:27:00,340 --> 01:27:07,680

condition. A piece of old bread was more sweet

01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:11,768

for them in communion with the Lord.

01:27:12,101 --> 01:27:15,438

In communion with some other brothers, if it was

01:27:15,438 --> 01:27:18,066

possible, sometimes they were separated because

01:27:18,066 --> 01:27:21,027

of that reason. It was more satisfying for them

01:27:21,027 --> 01:27:24,572

than the best food outside of the prison.

01:27:24,781 --> 01:27:29,786

How? Because what the Lord is saying is true. If

01:27:29,786 --> 01:27:33,915

you obey Him in some regards, or even if you

01:27:33,915 --> 01:27:37,418

don't seek yourself that kind of situation, but

01:27:37,418 --> 01:27:41,172

you get in that kind of situation, we know that

01:27:41,172 --> 01:27:44,842

there is more and more tribulation coming on the

01:27:44,842 --> 01:27:48,221

Church and we will have to suffer.

01:27:48,221 --> 01:27:51,307

A big part of the Church is suffering in some

01:27:51,307 --> 01:27:56,771

difficult places today, but if they believe and

01:27:56,771 --> 01:28:02,902

obey, they have more than what we, the other

01:28:02,902 --> 01:28:07,281

Christians, the healthy, wealthy, free, and

01:28:07,281 --> 01:28:09,784

whatever else Christians we have.

01:28:10,785 --> 01:28:15,915

Wow. Zoltan, you have given us a lot to think

01:28:15,915 --> 01:28:18,626

about. I feel like I need to ponder all of these

01:28:18,626 --> 01:28:22,839

things after we finish recording today. Thank you

01:28:22,839 --> 01:28:25,591

for taking the time to share your story and some

01:28:25,591 --> 01:28:26,759

of these lessons you learned.

01:28:27,135 --> 01:28:31,264

Thank you, and it's an honor to share these

01:28:31,264 --> 01:28:35,560

things. I'm not worthy of that, or I'm not

01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:40,189

something who knows a lot of things. As I said,

01:28:40,189 --> 01:28:43,526

I'm still learning and struggling, but I believe

01:28:43,526 --> 01:28:48,281

that it is possible because I read it, and this

01:28:48,281 --> 01:28:51,617

is the most important reason, and

01:28:51,617 --> 01:28:54,787

God is true in everything He says.

01:28:54,829 --> 01:28:59,125

And also, my faith is strengthened by what I saw

01:28:59,125 --> 01:29:01,002

in other people's lives,

01:29:01,669 --> 01:29:03,755

and it's real, it's worth it.

01:29:04,797 --> 01:29:08,217

Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing today.

01:29:08,217 --> 01:29:09,344

Thank you. Thank you, brother.

01:29:10,178 --> 01:29:14,515

If you found this interview with Zoltan interesting, you should check out this one we do with Yuriy

01:29:14,515 --> 01:29:20,063

where he describes what it was like for his family living behind the Iron Curtain in Ukraine.

01:29:20,063 --> 01:29:23,066

And you can find that linked in the description down below.

01:29:23,066 --> 01:29:27,070

We also have another Youtube channel which is a documentary series

01:29:27,070 --> 01:29:29,530

on the origins of Anabaptism. And again, that's linked down below.

01:29:29,739 --> 01:29:35,995

Make sure to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast app and we'll see you in the next episode.