Sa.

Welcome back to the Maya Games for a tender one.

I've been feeling tender.

It's been a tender, tender time amping up for our first Leo Aquarius eclipse perhaps amongst other things, last days of Saturn in Pisces Uranus Station direct.

Those are some of the things I've heard myself and others naming as a part of possible explanation for the electricity of this moment.

Anyways, yeah, I'm feeling pretty grounded at the moment of recording, but I am also feeling quite tender because this episode, this conversation, I should say, brought a lot up for me.

So as I'm dropping into this moment of framing it for listeners on the eve of releasing it into the world.

Yeah, just sort of reflecting on all of the things I've been sitting with, feeling with, detangling, looking at in my own system, in my own relationship to Chiron.

And there's a lot here.

Yeah, this conversation with my friend Jonathan Ko is, I think it's pretty poignant.

I think it's a definite transmission.

Upon being a part of the convo and then especially on listening back, I felt like I was a recipient of an initiation in large part due to the depth of understanding, embodied understanding and gentleness and wisdom and care that Jonathan brings and also in part to yeah, as I mentioned, everything that it brought up for me to reflect on my own relationship to Chiron throughout.

Jonathan Ko, I think, may be the person on the planet that I've recorded the most podcast episodes with between the the couple of times he's been on the Maya Games and the few times I've been on Jonathan's podcast Healing the Spirit, which absolutely check it out if you haven't yet.

Jonathan is such a loving and curious and super intelligent conversation partner.

Both Jonathan and I are pre Chiron return.

We're native Chiron and Cancer.

So we're both closing out our Chiron squares and we end up talking a lot in this conversation about our own experiences holding the role of Chiron for others as we're positioned as and working as teachers and guides in the healing arts ourselves while actively working through our own learning and wounding.

Jonathan's a 35 sacral generator on the cross of Consciousness, which I mentioned specifically to point out.

The 35 Jonathan brings some serious fifth line exalted universalized understanding and knowledge that really hits and brings it through with the gentle confidence of the martyr.

And I say gentle confidence because, yeah, I often just notice myself as a five two in comparison from my perspective to one threes and three fives and three sixes and six threes there's like, yeah, an ability to.

To speak to what one knows as a third line with a confidence that my second line body just can't quite understand.

But yeah, there's such a gentleness to Jonathan because there's a real connection to the third line, kind of curiosity and resilience.

And yeah, I just felt very held to be in my own vulnerable process on this call and Jonathan's presence.

Yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit up front about my own intrigue about Chiron.

Cause I mention it a little bit near the end of the episode.

But I think having some of this in mind at the front end and throughout the conversation will be some useful framing.

So I've been hooked on Chiron, you might say, since the early 2000 and twenties when Chiron transited all of my Aries planets.

Just on a personal note, the Chiron in Aries transit has been really personal for me.

I have three planets in the first decan of Aries.

So the beginning of this transit was the most poignant moment of this Chiron and Aries initiation for me is also when it squared my early Chiron in Cancer and also squared my early planets in Capricorn as well.

I digress.

Aside from just the really personal, deeply felt process with Chirons transiting my own chart, I have also had my interest peaked since that period of time, early 2000s, from just a bird's eye view with Chiron.

In my early studies with Chiron, I learned about its weird orbit, which Jonathan and I talk about a little bit in the episode, including that it's typically thought of as existing in space between Saturn and Uranus.

So it's thought of as like the bridge between the Saturnian planets, the seven traditional planets, and then the trans Saturnians, the outers.

There's a lot of.

Potential meaning in there, which I think we talk about a good amount through the episode.

But also at some moments in its orbit, Chiron comes inside the orbit of Jupiter and Saturn.

That's really interesting to me.

And even more specifically, something that really piqued my interest early on is that in Chiron's 50, 51 year cycle, it spends a very uneven amount of time in the signs.

It spends only one year at the Libra end of the zodiac and then a little bit more than a year on either side of that.

So Virgo and Scorpio, it spends a little bit longer than a year.

And then as you keep moving out from Libra, it gets longer and longer and longer.

And by the time Chiron's in Aries, it's spending seven to nine years.

I think it's typically thought of as like, seven or eight years.

But if you look at the retrograde ingresses and egresses, it's nine years from Chiron's first dip into Aries this time around before its final exit and into Taurus.

So that in of itself was really interesting to me to think about.

What is Chiron?

What does Chiron represent as this bridge between dimensions that offers itself through both the abandonment wound, the context of abandonment, and the pain of that, and then through the potential for healing through that core wound?

That core abandonment wound, yeah.

Just on an intellectual and sort of somatic sensy level.

I've just always been very curious about that and very inclined to contemplate on the significance of Aries and everything having to do with Aries in the experience of Chiron.

Because Chiron spends such a greater amount of time in Aries than in other parts of the zodiac, than any other part of the zodiac, in some cases.

It's a very significant discrepancy in time.

And then to add one more layer to it, Chiron was discovered in 1977 when it was at 3 degrees Taurus.

And so my intense, curious contemplation of what is it about Aries that Chiron has to spend so much time there has included this added layer of.

This is the final stretch that Chiron has to endure that Chiron will move through before it completes its full revolution back to the point it was discovered at.

I want to point this out, I guess, a little bit, just to accentuate and offer my own curiosity and contemplation around the significance of Chiron in Aries in particular, but also to just paint a little picture of scope here, because Chiron in 2026 is starting to finish its time in Aries, and it's on the cusp of its first Chiron return.

So first Kronos time things.

Chiron is gonna spend three months in Taurus this year, essentially the summer months, and then it will be back in Aries for the fall and early winter.

And I think it's in April of 2027 that it'll go back into Taurus for good.

And then it's mid2027, I think, late June, that Chiron will hit its return to its discovery chart at 3 degree TAU.

And this feels important to me.

And I'll try to spell out why, because at this time, Chiron has not even made its first return yet to its discovery chart.

And Jonathan and I Talk a little bit in the episode about our own.

I think it's mostly me that talks about this, like my own sense of an incomplete understanding of Chiron because I've yet to make my Chiron return and then just kind of juxtaposing that onto collective consciousness as a whole.

I don't think that we as a collective yet have been resourced to know exactly how to translate Chiron's positioning natally and by transit astrologically.

But perhaps even more compelling than that hypothesis is that I don't think we have yet to be resourced enough through our experience of Chiron unfolding over time to even be awakened to full capacity, capacity of the truth of Chiron's functionality, like what it even means.

And yeah, the capacity of Chiron, like that component of human consciousness, what is it to be abandoned, to exist across the binary, to experience separation and through the hurt of this all, to learn to heal, to know, to teach, ultimately to connect within and without.

And so my sense for a while has been, and I think this was really percolating and clarifying in the conversation for me and since.

But I have this ongoing brewing sense that as a collective we are on the cusp of understanding what it is to heal, which also includes understanding what it is to be.

Whatever we would conceptualize, the opposite of healed is, you know, broken, separated, disintegrated, hurt, wounded.

And yeah, I think I'm looking ahead to Chiron in Taurus as like this is going to complete the picture in some way.

And then I'm experiencing Chiron in Aries and have been experiencing Chiron in Aries as these are some final moments of.

Really.

Crucial discovery with Chiron in Aries.

So.

Perhaps that makes sense to you.

It makes sense to me and I wanted to offer some of that big picture framing infused with some of my own personal observations and senses about the significance of Chiron in this moment.

I think this conversation is really interesting.

As I mentioned, it's vulnerable, it feels personal.

But I do think, yeah, there's some cool stuff that happens when a 5th line mind and a 5th line body get together to universalize.

And Jonathan and I really exist quite a bit across this Virgo Pisces axis.

So there's a lot of tapping into some kind of big jupitarian something, but doing it in many ways through the functionality of the mercurial mind.

There's a lot of themes in this conversation around ego and the nature of knowledge and its dissemination from an other dimensional perspective.

Jonathan really like holds that perspective down a lot of what Jonathan was bringing in was making me think about another significant transit of this year, which is Jupiter finishing up its time in Cancer for a little more than the first half of the year.

And that's Jonathan's placement as well.

Jonathan has an exalted Jupiter in Cancer and I can really feel the presence of Jupiter in Cancer both by transit and through Jonathan in this conversation, holding down the fort of connectivity of the matrix of the all as a backdrop for this conversation about ego and ego mind as sort of a distorting filter, a filter of distortion around the truth of the nature of knowledge and healing and its dissemination, its dispersion from an other dimensional perspective.

So yeah, I feel really excited about.

This conversation and sharing it.

I'll be looking forward to hearing witnessing it in whatever ways I have access to how the transmission and the pokiness of this conversation hits the world and hits you.

You can find Jonathan@Jonathanco.com I'll put all the links in the show notes Jonathan has a much beloved podcast called Healing the Spirit Spirit as well as a substack where you can support the work and subscribe.

You can go to Jonathan's website, jonathan.com for coaching and mentorship, for music, for classes, and just a reminder that if you are interested in unpacking what Chiron in Aries has been for you and experiencing what Chiron in Taurus will be as it dips in this summer with folks for whom the transit is hitting a similar place in their chart, we're going to be doing just that through ascendant assemblies this year.

So look out for announcements about that or just proactively join the solarium@patreon.com KelseyRoseTort and yeah, Jonathan and I go quite a bit into 2027 stuff and at the time of my recording this intro, I've also recorded already on Neptune with Jessa Reid and on Pluto with John Cole and both of those conversations are quite heavy on the global cycles, human design, locks and keys, 2027 stuff.

So once again, just a reminder that I do have presently a free workshop on the very basics of that so that it won't sound like such gibberish on my Patreon as well.

And you have to look for the free collection and you'll find it.

And that yeah, a really beautiful in depth course with Jessa from the summer exists as well for people who want to go a bit deeper.

And with that, 17 minutes in.

Okay, let me, let me get out.

Of the way and invite you to step onto the bridge.

The Bridge to Chiron and beyond.

Enjoy.

Hi, Jonathan.

Hi, Kelsey.

Welcome back to the Maya Games.

Thank you.

I'm always so excited talking with you.

I can already feel this wave of energy kind of bubbling forth and I'm.

Like, yes, it is very.

Like I was telling Jonathan before we hit record, I've been, like, more nervous than I anticipated for each of the convos in this series so far.

And there's something about the familiarity of plugging in with Jonathan where I would just.

Anytime we talk in recent years, I've just been like, all right, Jesus, take the wheel.

There is no mental control available to me.

I'm not sure what it is about our synastry or our connection chart, but it's just like Pisces takeover.

Yes.

And there's something about that that's actually feeling really comforting right now because I'm just like, okay, mind you, be as nervous as you want.

You're not doing any of this.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I was also tuning into our relational field, and I feel like each time I am sharing space with you, I'm always so keenly aware of how myself, in all the full spectrum expression I can be when I'm in front of you.

And I feel like that is a function of how you have cultivated a really intimate and kind and compassionate relationship with yourself, Kelsey.

So I feel very.

Yeah.

Very expansive and really clear and grounded when I'm with you.

Thank you for that.

You know, this is going to bleed into another conversation we may be having soon on your podcast, I think, but I've really been in a smaller scope season, like, I would say the last half of 2025 and 2026 so far, of seeing more clearly my impact, but not necessarily in like a big 10th house y impact way necessarily, although that's part of it in a more granular, I guess you could say, first house way.

But from a human design perspective, just like, what are the mechanics happening through my form and how is that conditioning the people who come into contact with it?

And I think, you know, we all take for granted our innateness because it's all we know.

Some Aries lessons here, but I've been seeing more what happens in other people's systems around me and what you just named.

I'm starting to see more and more is a big part of it.

There's like an attunement to self, a willingness towards honesty that I don't think it has to do just with my nature, although I do think I have a specific setup for that.

And I think all the Alchemy, all the work, all of the surrender I've been doing to relax into the mechanics, the inevitability.

I think of my frequency and my impact.

Yeah, I'm seeing it more, the more I surrender to it.

It sounds like getting out of the way, Kelsey.

It does sound like getting out of the way, Jonathan.

We've been here before.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I think that feels in many ways like a culminating awareness at the end of this Chiron in Aries Transit, which.

Yeah, we're here today to talk about chiron.

Yeah.

In 2026.

Well, it happened, which always happens where we just dive right in.

But I would like to maybe dive out and dive back in by taking a moment to just ground into now.

Give both of us a chance to attune to what's here, arriving to this, not just each other, but also the parasocial plane and allow listeners to attune to us as well.

So yeah, I would love to, for each of us just to speak a little bit about what's here.

What's here in body, mind and spirit this morning or this afternoon.

Do you have a sense of wanting to lead or hear me go first?

I can lead.

I've been experimenting lately with whoever has the least definition has to go first.

I love that.

Yeah.

I felt something arising from your invitation physically.

It's extremely cold in New York this weekend.

We have the bomb cyclone apparently, which is a pretty rare occurrence, but the temperature has been sub zero and my body is kind of like, what the hell is going on?

And I was also.

I just had lunch.

So I could really feel my body digesting in this moment and settling.

So body's in transition emotionally.

I feel a dimension of calm and quiet.

I've been seeing in my mind's eye a lot, Kelsey, this imagery of the ocean and pieces of ice on top of the ocean.

For some reason that was really alive.

That's been really alive in my field.

And I would see it as I'm falling asleep.

I would see it when I wake up and in this moment.

That feels like a good description of my emotional state and hmm, spiritually, I would say I feel very connected to the spirit and the energy of Chiron.

Yes.

Because of our conversation which initiated something in me and an awareness of my work that perhaps I haven't fully claimed until recently, but.

And also I am having my Jupiter return and Jupiter is co present with my Chiron.

So that plotline has been unfolding for me.

Yeah.

Thank you.

How about you?

I was definitely arriving a little flustered yeah, my mind has been kind of resisting relaxing into this series of conversations in the way that I intended to from the start.

I've been.

I've been kind of come back around, circled back into a.

A choicelessness mode where I'm like, looking at things in a way where I feel outside of them.

Aquarius season.

I watch myself kind of come in and out of sense of agency and have all sorts of feelings about that on both sides of it.

And I'm sort of ebbing back into a place of choicelessness from the way my mind orients to reality right now.

And in that, one of the things I find is a lot of the sensation of liberation, like, oh, I'm not doing any of this, so I don't have to do any of it.

I don't have to resist it, I don't have to fight it.

So, yeah, I find myself in a dance, in the D dance, arriving back to a, oh, let me just get out of the way place.

And those moments for me are often.

There's nervousness associated with them.

So, yeah, I'm feeling a little like, energetically a nervousness.

I've been a little busy.

I've been a little more.

A little.

The nervousness, I think, is also a result of my not having had as much space to digest, to rest and digest.

So things are.

Lots of things are feeling kind of like up in a knot that doesn't feel threatening, but that feels knotty, like I haven't really had my time to detangle.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I arrive a little knotted up, but at peace with being knotted up.

Thank you for sharing.

Yeah.

So let's talk about Chiron.

Chiron.

The main thesis of this conversation perhaps is that in 2026, Chiron's going to pop into Taurus for the first time, and then in 2027 it will make its final ingress.

So we've got just a few months of Chiron in Taurus this year.

Mostly.

We still have Chiron in Aries this year.

So I think our intention is to feel into what has Chiron in Aries been, what Chiron in Taurus be in the context of everything else happening in the sky and reflecting that in our individual psyches and our collective reality.

But before we get into Chiron, specifically through the Aries perspective and the Taurus perspective, let's just attune to Chiron a bit.

What is Chiron?

How do you think about Chiron?

Yeah, what feels present is maybe naming some of the significations that Chiron usually is associated with.

So wounded healer is a word that I hear a lot to describe Chiron, mentor to heroes and healers, meaning Chiron as both a healer, but also a mentor to other people who are doing healing work.

In the mythology, Chiron is the mentor of Jason, the mentor of Achilles and also of Asclepius.

So I thought that is interesting to think about.

I also think about the word you were just saying, Kelsey, about no choice.

Because if we look at the story of Chiron, there were a lot of points of no choice on the one hand.

And also Chiron in the mythology is this half human, half horse, a centaur, essentially figure who stands apart by temperament and by their relationship to the world around them.

From other centaurs there is this story.

And we can apply a critical lens to this perspective, right.

That when we look at a lot of these mythologies, the Greek mythology, specifically centaurs, are often considered brutish.

Right.

They are considered less than human.

And Chiron, in fact, elevates above humans.

Chirons are mentors and teacher.

Chiron is a mentor and teacher to human heroes.

And at the end of Chiron's life, Chiron was wounded and because Chiron was half God, wasn't able to die.

In fact, as I'm saying all of this, I'm wondering if maybe it's better to just begin with telling the story.

Kelsey, how do you feel about that?

Yes, let's do it.

Okay.

Yes.

I wanted to read something that Madeline Miller wrote on her website.

Actually, I do trust my own storytelling ability and in this moment I feel like reading.

Chiron was born under unusual circumstances.

His father, the Titan Kronos, was coupling with the nymph Philyra when Rhea, Cronus wife, suddenly appeared.

Cronos turned himself into a stallion to escape her notice, and nine months later, Philyra gave birth to a half horse baby whom she reared or abandoned, depending on the myth.

On Mount Pelion, Chiron grew up to be just, kind and wise in many arts, including medicine, gymnastics, prophecy, hunting, and music.

Because of this, he was much sought after as a tutor of heroes.

And his charges eventually included Peleus, Jason, Asclepius, and of course, Achilles.

Homer calls Chiron the wisest and most just of all centaurs.

Generally, centaurs were known as being brutish, lustful and violent, eating their meat raw, living outside the bounds of civilization, and pillaging whenever they got the chance.

In order to distinguish Chiron from his barbaric cousins, vast painters often depicted him as having a full man's body with only two horse feet.

Behind One of the most fascinating myths about Chiron involves Heracles and Prometheus.

While visiting the centaur, Heracles, or Hercules, accidentally pricked Chiron with one of his arrows.

Poisoned with the blood of the Hydra, the poisoned virulence made the wound incurable, despite Chiron's skill in healing, and the centaur was doomed to an eternity of agony.

So Chiron went to Zeus and offered to give up his immortality in exchange for the freedom of Prometheus, the king of gods.

Agreed, Prometheus was freed, and Chiron's soul was placed among the stars where he became the constellation Sagittarius.

So that's Chiron's story in four paragraphs or so.

Yeah.

Thank you, Madeline, and thank you, Jonathan.

What's inspirational to you about the mythology?

Like, what pieces of the mythology of Chiron do you find yourself returning to as you are anchoring to your own understanding of the role that Chiron plays in the tapestry?

Yeah.

In one of the versions of the myths, one of the variations, Chiron was actually abandoned by his mother.

And that's the one I'm more familiar.

With that you're familiar with.

Yeah, she was absolutely.

She found him horrendous upon birth, and so she left him under this tree.

And then Chiron was tutored by Apollo and Diana.

And Apollo and Diana, obviously are the sun God and the moon goddess.

Right.

And they taught him everything that he ended up knowing and being a master of, such as archery and prophecy and all these other knowledge systems that was mentioned in Madeline's piece.

And what I thought was interesting about that version of the mythology was here's this figure who was unwanted.

And yet, because of how they were abandoned, they ended up getting the best teacher.

And in this moment, we are recording this in 2026, we are living through the Wheel of Fortune year.

And it does make me think about that.

It makes me think about how some of the best teachers and mentors did not set out to be teachers and mentors.

And this has been true in my life when I see some of my teachers and mentors, people got into the profession of helping other people or becoming this vessel for knowledge, not because they want to from the beginning.

They got to that point because something happened to them that caused them some sort of pain, that caused them to, by necessity, have to learn certain skills that they then were able to pass on to other people.

And it makes me think about the process through which knowledge is passed down.

Because speaking of what we were, our theme of the day, getting out of the way Kelsey.

Knowledge, or the transmission of wisdom often has to bypass the ego.

It often alchemizes the ego.

And through the transmutation of the egoic process, the egoic self knowledge is able to be shared.

Right?

That's not to say we are discounting individual experiences.

That's not to say we are discounting the ways that we have been wounded or the ways that other people are accountable or need to be held accountable in the process.

But that is to say that successful transmission of knowledge requires the person doing the transmitting to have the ability at least to step out of the way.

And this, I feel, is an art, a wisdom process that can't be bypassed.

And it does require thinking about Chiron's father as Kronos or Saturn.

This process of becoming a vessel, a clear vessel and a clear transmitter of wisdom also takes time.

So that's where my mind goes in this moment.

What about you?

I'm having lots of different threads connect over here.

So I want to talk about Chiron as a bridge, because that is how I orient to Chiron.

And there's lots of different ways that that comes in.

I want to make a connection between a few things, between what you're talking about with ego and ego needing to get out of the way or us needing perhaps to be in a different relationship to ego so as to not be trapped by it or blocked by it.

There's the.

The bridge thing is here with that on some level.

And I want to.

I want to make a connection between ego or ego mind and binary and Saturn and Maya, because all of those things, to me, while they don't explicitly mean the same thing, they're carrying a similar weight or a similar functionality.

And I do, like, in my own conceptualization, I do use some of those terms quite interchangeably.

Mind, Maya, ego, ego, mind, material of which Saturn represents.

So I'm talking about all of these things that I'm listing off.

They, for me, have an association with the third dimension.

And I think when I relate to Chiron and there's, like, stuff that was lighting up through your sharing the myth, as well as some of what you just expanded on in your own reflecting on the myth, there's stuff there that was, like, percolating in new ways for me.

So maybe that'll come back in or bring that back in if you see it.

But I'm gonna.

I'm going to stick for the moment with what I'm familiar with.

We'll see if it brings me back to the myth.

Polarity is what the matrix, the Maya the illusion is built on.

That's become a key quality of my understanding of the Maya and therefore spirituality in our spiritual existence in relationship to the Maya.

The part of us that is both in physical form, limited to some extent by the comprehension of duality in the mind, by the comprehension of the dualistic mind is a better way of saying it.

And simultaneously we are also connected to otherworldly, other realm knowing, other dimensional knowing.

And Chiron is a bridge between those two things.

We can look at Chiron as a vehicle that helps us access this other dimensional knowing, that helps us feel free from the limitation from the imprisonment of the mind, the Maya, the body, the form.

And yet it is through being initiated into this realm, through the trials and tribulations of this realm, that we get to access that other dimensional truth again.

So I think I was feeling into that when you were talking about the version of the myth which I am more familiar with, where Chiron's mother does abandon him.

It is through dealing with that abandonment that Chiron becomes the healer.

I want to just read something I wrote while you were speaking, which is inside of the binary, you belong nowhere.

And when you bridge the binary, you belong everywhere.

There's a connection here to Chiron's story in that through his.

Flesh, through his incarnation, he was an example of binary.

He was a living binary.

He was half horse, half human.

He didn't belong, not only because he was abandoned by his mother, but he also didn't belong with the creatures of which he was one because he wasn't.

Born of the centaurs, he was born of Kronos and human.

He was born half human, half horse.

And so he didn't belong with humans, he didn't belong with the horses because of that binary.

He didn't belong with the gods, he.

Didn'T belong with the centaurs.

And it's through the choicelessness of this for him and the happenstance of where life takes him from there.

Who comes into his life, the life circumstances that he happens upon that he has no choice but to surrender to.

And those are the conditions that brought him to a life of learning and knowledge and spirituality and teaching and healing.

So through the non negotiation of the.

Binary in his life, Chiron becomes initiated into something.

Multidimensional access to multidimensional knowing and multidimensional gifts.

I'm thinking about something Ari brought up in the Mars convo, which is that when you position yourself in opposition to something, then that's all there is.

And my own journey with that has come a lot through my like the way that I relate to politics and how I used to call myself an anti capitalist.

And at a certain point that started to feel like a limitation because I understood that building my ethos and identity around being against something was inherently very limiting.

Right.

All it says is that I don't belong to capitalism.

What do I belong to then?

Right.

And like I felt at some point in my work and my self understanding and in my continued sense of.

Removal from unbelonging in regards to capitalism, I wanted to feel like I belonged to something.

So I stopped focusing on anti capital, being an anti capitalist.

And that was in my mind as I was writing this down.

In the binary you belong nowhere.

Because in the binary there's only belonging and not belonging.

And when you bridge the binary you belong everywhere.

So yeah, I'm.

Where's the through line here?

Let me see if I can get out of my way.

I'll come back to my entry point to Chiron in large part came through Barbara Han Clow's book.

In her book about Rainbow Bridge between the inner and outer planets, Chiron was discovered in 1977.

And so Chiron was discovered after Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were all discovered.

But Barbara Han Clow, her writing talks about how it wasn't until we discovered Chiron that we could consciously be in relationship to the aspects of the human experience represented by those outer planets.

Chiron in space, its orbit exists between Saturn and the trans saturnian planets.

And also Chiron's orbit is funky and weird and sometimes comes inside Jupiter and Saturn.

So that was coming to mind as well.

As I was hearing you talk about Chiron being born of Saturn, I was thinking about this thing Badway often has said to me throughout the years of when one of us might be a little.

We repeat it back to each other.

Now when one of us might be having some challenging experiences with a parent and feeling frustrated and at a dead end, he'll say something like, and this is gonna sound kind of crude, but I'm a parent now so I can take it from the other side that it's natural for us to.

It's natural and kind of the point for us to take what our parents have given us and expand from there and heal and improve on it.

Right.

Like this is the nature of evolution.

Yes.

And so I was feeling into that when I was thinking about Chiron being Saturn's descendant and Chiron in its orbit, sometimes having to come back inside the orbit of Saturn and Jupiter, sometimes having to come back into the realm of the 3D where there is pain and suffering and embodiment and the trap of duality and the trap of the binary in order to continue on its path of transcending the binary and accessing these other dimensional ways of tuning into reality that we could say is what the trans Saturnian planets are.

But I think a lot of what I'm really thinking about is this bridge between our 3D incarnate selves and the parts of us that are simultaneously God and simultaneously connected to source and free from the illusion of time and space.

Chiron is the bridge to those things.

Mm mm.

A couple things come to mind hearing you.

For me, Kelsey, the first one is I've been thinking about how the nature of life and consciousness and evolution is learning.

And so, so much of when people talk about fear of failure or fear of abandonment or fear of anything really in the 3D if we step back, we can interpret that fear as a fear of learning.

If everything is learning, there's no success or failure, which obviously in the Maya things are labeled as success or failure.

If we step back from that, from the duality, the only thing that's left is learning.

Consciousness is just always learning, always expanding in all directions, always trying new things.

We are the universe looking at this fractal of a mirror and understanding itself more and more.

Right?

And I want to tie this back to what you and Badway were talking about with regards to what our parents give us.

Because there can often be in the passing down of knowledge, the emotional experience of being someone who is imparting the wisdom, being someone who's the teacher, the parent, the mentor, and then feeling rejected by the person that we are imparting that wisdom or knowledge to, right?

Because they have decided to take that knowledge and instead of following it the ways, the way we, our minds think they need to follow it, they go the opposite direction.

But that is predicated on an ontology where the passing down of knowledge is a pyramid rather than a web.

If we see the passing down of knowledge as this rhizomatic experience, if life is always expanding in all directions, then any direction that the mentee or the child, the student take from the point of what we were sharing is a success in a way because it is leading to an experience of learning, an experience of expanding into knowing more.

That's it.

This feels really connected to the little hits I've been starting to get around.

The incoming nodal era, which is your nodal return.

South node in Leo, north node in Aquarius.

I've been feeling into this lately.

Because I've been watching these themes coming up around, like specialness and credit and recognition.

And it's stuff that's, you know, been around.

And I'm starting to kind of see it from a slightly different angle, which is like starting to really feel into.

From a certain plane of awareness how things like credit and recognition given to a particular individual are irrelevant.

Maybe this is like some of the.

Upcoming south node in Leo.

I don't think it's fully irrelevant.

Right.

Because if we're not acknowledging individuality whatsoever now, we're in kind of the excess potentiality of too much Aquarius.

And this is a binary trap.

So, yeah, this is just me starting.

To feel into another way that these.

Themes are showing up in the coming years.

And I'm a little lost in my own swirl.

But I think the thread that I was following is that this binary that's now showing up for me in Leo.

Aquarius, which is going to be really big, right?

We've got Jupiter going into Leo.

We've got the nodes in Leo Aquarius.

We've got Pluto in Aquarius.

But this is yet again another instance where the trap of duality highlights accentuates the original wound of separation.

Because if we remember and have access to the sense of interconnectivity, then our individual ego doesn't grasp at credit because we understand that all of life is in a flow.

We feel connected to sacred reciprocity as law.

And so I think this is going to be a big theme moving forward that it feels to me like it's a natural next step in what a lot of the Chiron in Aries in.

Particular.

Curriculum has been dealing with the wound of separation, which I think it's almost difficult for me now to feel into Chiron without feeling into specifically what Chiron in Aries feels like.

And I don't think that's a problem.

I think there's something really cosmically intentional about the fact that Chiron spends significantly more time in Aries than in any other sign.

And I think the moment of Aries separation from source that happens at zero.

Aries is not separate from what Chiron represents in and of itself, which is healing through abandonment.

Healing through a wound.

The bridge.

The bridge is here.

The bridge and the abandonment is here.

Virgo Pisces feels like part of this too.

I always orient to Virgo as this just unscratchable itch.

Just like perfection is right around the corner, but you'll never have it.

You'll be chasing it forever.

And when I really distill down to like what is that?

It feels to me like the reflection, the polarity of Pisces.

It's this incarnate embodied relationship to perfection which is not incarnated.

Right.

And so there's this like pain, this like mild, low grade itch pain with Virgo that to me is just like a part of the human condition is we feel our connection to source and yet we can't only feel that in this lifetime.

We can't so fully immerse in that even if we have these moments of bliss, there's still gonna be the return maybe inside of the orbit of Jupiter and Saturn.

We still are gonna have to come back to the 3D to integrate it.

So it's this, it's bringing me back to the initial thing that was really pulling me early in this conversation of polarity is the pain, Polarity is the suffering, polarity is the illusion.

And it's through bridging the binary that we access the multidimensional self, the eternal soul.

Or maybe it's the other way around that it's through accessing these other parts of us that we can surrender into the trap, the illusion of separateness, the illusion of binary and move through it with grace, move through it with acceptance, move through it with the possibility for initiating and healing.

So lots of things, but this is how I think of Chiron.

I love it.

This is where I see the relevance of Chiron.

I think.

Yeah, I want to mention one more thing too, just that I feel like it's really.

In case anyone listening isn't aware of this, I think it's worth noting Chiron's orbit is 51 years, I think.

And so it's slow.

We're talking about a really slow process.

And when I think about my Saturn return and how everything I learned about Saturn made sense and then once I was in and especially post Saturn return and now especially even entering my Saturn opening square, I'm like a ways away from it.

You understand Saturn more when you've been through it.

And so I want to offer that just as additional context to my own relating with Chiron that I'm in my closing Chiron square.

I've not yet had my Chiron turn.

I really do feel, I imagine that there's a sense of clear embodied understanding of Chiron that may become more accessible once a person has experienced their full revolution of Chiron.

So I just want to offer that in humility that I have lots of sense of what Chiron is and I feel it.

But my picture of Chiron Personally does feel incomplete.

Yeah.

I am curious, Kelsey, you brought in parenting earlier, and I know you've been in the role of a mentor for a while.

I'm curious if anything's coming up for you in terms of wisdom or experiences you've had, being in that role or playing that role for another human being that feels relevant.

In thinking about Chiron.

Do you see any potential specifics?

Like, are you seeing something?

Is it a leading question?

It's not a leading question, but when you ask that question, it makes me want to share with you the experience that I had, being in a mentorship relationship with you.

Like being.

Yeah.

Having you play the role of mentor for me.

Because some of this I would attribute to you being a manifester and me being a generator.

But I think there's also something inherent to that dynamic where I experienced you connecting with something that's much further ahead than what I tend to be able to receive in the moment.

Kelsey, where, like, for example, I'm thinking very specifically about our very first human design reading.

You gave me this human design reading.

You were my first foray into human design, and it took me probably almost an entire year to be with that information.

Like, I listened to that reading over and over again.

And you and I have also spoken about being a manifester and feeling lonely in the inside of the gloriousness of the repellent aura.

Right.

And I wonder.

Yeah.

What you've learned from your own personal experience.

This is maybe my third line, getting really curious about your, you know, your role as an experimentor.

As you so beautifully and playfully put into words, there is.

There is distance, there is differentiation between the mentor and the mentor.

Right.

There is differentiation between a parent and a child.

It is actually.

Not compassionate to pretend that the gap does not exist.

Right.

It's reminding me of how in New York City, here on the subway, we have the reminder to mind the gap.

And this is something I saw a lot a few years ago when accountability cancel culture was really rampant on the Internet where people were trying to hold certain teachers accountable.

And I think some of them are warranted, and some of them, I also feel is very much this experience of a child thrashing around after the parents told them not to eat any more candy because it's 8pm Right.

And especially being our age, which, you know, you and I are in our mid-30s ish, holding that role while we're also navigating the experience of growing up is.

Has its own specific challenges.

Right.

And I think this is maybe what you were speaking to as well.

When you were talking about there's something about Chiron that hasn't fully landed or fully ripened for you.

And also, as someone who has benefited from your gift, I definitely see you very much like, holding that role so beautifully.

Thank you.

You're.

That specificity was helpful for me to feel into, like, the thread that you're seeing here of my own experience in the role of wounded healer.

You're touching on a lot of stuff that's very here for me right now.

So it's like tender and it's yet to be detangled, or it's like in the early process of being detangled.

So perhaps this is a little bit of a protection mechanism coming up.

I don't know.

I'll let it be if it is that.

But I feel myself drawn to going universal, at least first.

Yeah.

What does it actually feel like to belong?

Like, I'm seeing.

Belonging and recognition are feeling the same to me in this moment, at least in the.

In the way I'm using these words and what they mean to me in the context that we've arrived to.

And I think I'm at a. I'm in a period with my own healing and my own renegotiating my relationship to ego mind and to binary, where I feel resourced to internally and externally, which go hand in hand.

I feel resourced to be able to look at in my relationships, in my external reality.

Where do I experience a sense of lack when it comes to recognition and belonging?

I currently feel resourced enough to tend to that internally.

And I see a repeated pattern that seems inevitable, that when meeting the reality of this unmet need, primarily from ego mind, there is no external situation, no external version of validation and recognition that is going to satiate my ego's need to be told, good job, you're the teacher that changed my life.

I see the work you're doing out there.

It's really making waves because of, I think, what you're saying and what we've.

What we've touched on a little bit in this convo, that the work that I invite people into is individuation.

And so once that.

Once the wisdom is imparted, whatever that.

Means.

The success of that is when it has been fully integrated and assimilated into a different individual's vessel and it becomes something else.

Right.

And so I have had to and continue to learn to recalibrate my own understanding of success and recognition and validation to being able to see that, to being able to, like, feel the DNA of my own.

My own process of becoming and individuating and healing in that of the grid work around me.

That's where the Leo Aquarius stuff is here, right?

Yeah.

And I think like one thing I've been really like, the gap thing feels really big.

Right.

Awareness gap is what I call.

Have been calling it because there was a certain point in my process where I needed to acknowledge that there is sometimes the presence of an awareness gap.

Because in my acknowledging that, it helped me to anchor back into my subjective experience and not take somebody else's understanding or reflection of me as truth.

Also, like you shared earlier, it's not.

Compassionate to pretend that the discrepancy in awareness isn't there.

That is so key, actually.

So thank you for pointing that out.

Like, not only for the sake of.

Self protection, but also for the integrity.

With which I played this chironic role.

People aren't inviting me to.

Maybe parts of them are, but I don't conceive of the assignment as being.

To pat people's back on the ego and make them feel good about how.

Awake and aware and healed they already are.

Right.

I mean, sometimes that's part of it.

Sometimes that happens.

And also, primarily my role that I'm.

Invited into is to help people see the blind spots where they're stuck, where.

They'Re in a loop, where there's something not integrated and offer that perspective, offer that insight with love and honesty so.

That they can see it more clearly for themselves, so that they can integrate.

More fully for themselves.

And also, even if there is an awareness gap with someone according to a particular thread.

Cause we all, you know, we all have our own blind spots and our old own natural ease versus places that we get tangled up easily.

So it's not black and white.

Right.

But even then, like whoever I'm meeting in any kind of relationship, but talking specifically to maybe a chironic relationship here, a spiritual healer, mentor relationship, whatever they have going on, however that's hitting my system.

This is my current curriculum.

Right?

Yeah.

And so I think I just see that and I can't unsee that.

And so it's.

It's not even possible for me at this point to fully fall back into the compulsion of.

Of seeking that external validation from the outside.

And this feels to me like Chiron in Aries.

I don't know if I hit quite where you were going.

Yeah, I think that's a beautiful share.

So maybe it's worth.

Yeah, let's zoom out for a minute.

And I think Chiron went into Aries and 2019.

Is that right?

Maybe first in 2018.

Yeah, September.

Oh yeah.

April 17, 2018 was the initial ingress into Aries and then the final one was February 18, 2019.

So Chiron has been in Aries, depending on if you use the first or second ingress, a year or two years prior to the pandemic and what many see as the marker to this era.

So Chiron in Aries has been the chironic curriculum, the healing curriculum, through this transitional era into what some might say is the new world feels really relevant.

And I have a 2 degree Aries Mercury, a 6 degree Aries Venus and an 8 degree Aries Sun.

And I have a 2 degree Chiron in Cancer or 1 degree Chiron in Cancer.

And so my closing square, all of this to say I still don't totally understand Chiron.

I think the level of intellectual comprehension I have solidified of Saturn, post Saturn return, I imagine there will be an intellectual way of fully comprehending Chiron in my future that I don't currently have.

And I would still say I have been really through a deep immersion learning with Chiron as my closing Chiron square started with Chiron moving right on my first decan Aries stellium, my sun, Mercury and Venus.

And that was for me very simultaneous with really fully transitioning into self employment and spiritual entrepreneurship and shifting from being a teacher, which I have always been of music, to a teacher of.

What do I, what am I a teacher of now?

You know, spirit, this.

Yeah.

So yeah, Chiron and Aries, like for me personally has been a lot of.

I mean it's been.

Everything is turning into an accidental life reflection for me lately, including this podcast episode.

But what we were talking about earlier of like what I'm seeing in myself now and what I see of what happens in my presence, the getting out of the way, the not trying to make it happen, it's like, yeah, my ego mind wants to be like, I did this.

Look at me, look at my worth, look at my value.

And there's moments where it does that.

But that, that is an ultimately unsatisfying orientation to have because if I build my sense of value and worth on that, then those other moments will break me.

Right.

So I've talked about like detoxing from ego mind or renegotiating relationship to ego mind is like the, the immediate medicine that we might get when we have a significant ego death is.

I don't have to blame myself for the stuff that doesn't well, and that comes with having to surrender and let go of the credit that we give our ego mind when something does go well.

Right.

And so there's this really like almost like numb space.

Almost this like I feel like I've watched myself and people go through kind of a depressive era, like a slump.

We were just voice noting about this a month or so ago, weren't we?

Yes.

Of like, yeah, spiritual liberation, but also, yeah, wherever you go, there you are.

It starts to get boring.

It starts and it's like that's the joke of it all is that as I'm out here holding the frequency, like doing my own healing work so that I can just constantly surrender and accept because that's really what it's all about.

And then I'm like using the tools of the mind, like human design and astrology to help people get there with me.

There's like a moment before they fly away and individuate and abandon me, perhaps to tie it together where they're just kind of looking at me like, wait, wait, hold on.

This is it.

This is all there is.

And I'm just like, yeah, that's it.

This is it.

Here we are.

Welcome.

This is it.

And I'm not exactly sure how this connects to Chiron, but I think maybe there's something to like that is the, the medicine that Chiron offers as.

Because that's the binary.

Like wait, this is it or this is not it.

And like there's something that Chiron gives us that's the ability to straddle the dimensions with acceptance.

And in that straddling, abandonment doesn't exist.

But you couldn't get to that realization without having experienced the separation first.

Without having experienced the abandonment.

Yeah.

Yep.

Wow.

That's the first time this whole hour that I feel like I've landed a plane.

Very Chiron of you too.

You're reminding me, Kelsey, of something, a reflection I received from someone who's worked with me long term.

And she said working with you has helped me loosen the grip of my self loathing.

And I thought, wow, high praise.

That's it.

That's it.

Loosen the grip of my self loathing.

That is it.

That is it.

That's Chiron and Aries.

Yes, exactly.

And it comes, you know, on the heel of us having this very honest discussion between the two of us, me and this long term client of.

She was almost saying this jokingly, but I recognized the truth in that.

She said whenever I bring a problem in this area of my life that I consistently have issues with, basically all you told me to do is just to Be myself and to accept myself.

Like, how many times have you told me that?

And I recognize how funny that is because in that moment, my ego was like, oh, you should have something more intelligent to say.

Right.

But I think this is on a meta level, pointing us to the mechanics of the ego.

Right, Kelsey?

The mechanics of the ego.

The ego survives through perpetuating the illusion that there is a problem.

And the ego.

It's so fucking humbling, actually, to realize.

Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt, but, yeah, like, actual healing is humbling.

And when you've positioned yourself as somebody that is supporting the healing of others, which both of us are doing and many people listening, I imagine, are doing.

When you've.

I.

When you identify with that work and then you remember, you find out, or you remember over and over again that you're not actually doing this.

Your ego mind, that piece of you is not doing this.

That's humbling.

Yeah.

And I. I think that's a step where there's a lot of potential to take a long pause before you move into the next piece.

And I'm.

I'm feeling drawn to bring in.

And I just want to say it so I don't forget it, because I've been very open head for giddy in this conversation so far that not only have we not had our full Chiron return, but Chiron has yet to make its full return since we discovered it.

And that that is a specific component of what we're on the edge of as we look ahead.

And so I think this is.

Chiron was discovered when it was at 3 degrees Taurus.

So we're close.

And so this feels.

I think part of why it's lighting up for me in this moment, Jonathan, is because I think the thing that you and I are kind of dancing around in our personal experiences, as in the ways that we embody Chiron in our lives and in our work, I think it's not just representative of us and where we are in our own Chiron and Cancer cohort closing out the revolution, there's something in it that I feel like is about to be realized and be integrated and come full circle around the entire archetype of healing through our wounds and helping one another heal through their own wounds on the planet and in the consciousness.

Like, I think we are at a precipice for that collectively.

Yeah, yeah.

That felt like a manifesto transmission, as I'm.

Yeah, I want to get more into it too, but I also interrupted you.

Was there more on, like, ego?

You were literally mid sentence on Ego, the mechanics of the ego.

Is it still here?

Maybe.

The last thing I'll say about that is I really love this framing of the Chiron in Aries being about the pain of separation.

And also I want to bring in this perspective that from a certain height or a certain distance, there is no separation, right?

We are all one.

If we think about the reality of creation, we are all part of the same galactic body, the same cosmic body.

We cannot separate ourselves from one another even if we wanted to.

But we are differentiated, right?

And so perhaps thinking about this pain of differentiation, the pain of being in a differentiated form and experiencing this ego mind falling into the illusion that we are separate is, I think, what.

What Chiron in Aries was really about.

And I'm thinking, too, Kelsey, about how some human design teachers talk about human design as the science of differentiation.

And I would also add the art of differentiation, right?

That part of.

If we were to contextualize this, if I could be so bold as to contextualize this in a universalized fifth line way, the journey is really from us having always been part of this unit, this one galactic cosmic body with differentiated fractals of consciousness falling into a sleepness, right?

And gradually waking up from this mental ego mind disease that we like to imagine we are separate, right?

The reality is, no matter your political affiliations, no matter what country you belong to, if there is an asteroid that hits Earth today, we are all fucked.

Absolutely fucked, right?

So we are actually very, very interconnected with one another.

There is no.

We don't get to leave this plane.

I was actually listening to.

I know you collaborate a lot with Jessa Reid.

I actually don't know Jessa personally, so I have a parasocial relationship with Jessa, but I am on her Patreon, and there was one Q and A where she was talking.

There was this question coming in about people who decided to end their own lives.

And Jessa was saying something about her perspective on it is that we don't really get to leave, actually.

You just get back in the game in some shape or form and you move through the cycle again, right?

If you don't complete, if you don't integrate and really look at.

Give yourself permission to be eviscerated by the lessons.

This is my words now.

You just come back into the cycle, right?

We don't get an out.

And I think there's something about Chiron and Aries that has been about that.

I also.

The last thing I want to say is I don't have Aries placements.

But I have loved ones who are Aries Risings.

And what I've seen in this period for them of Chiron being in their first house is waking up to awakening to the reality that in certain areas of their lives, they're actually the teacher, even though they may have been the child, even though they may have been the younger one, right?

Maybe even the mentee.

They were awakening to how in specific dynamics in their lives, they were in the teacher role, even though they didn't have that title officially.

And there was a level of pain around that, because when you have believed on a mental level that you were supposed to receive love or guidance, and then you ended up being the one who gave that love and guidance, there is tenderness in that, right?

And also there's power.

There's something here for me with us having this conversation and Chiron having a lot of its final stretch in Aries in a whole sign square to Jupiter in Cancer.

So Jupiter is in Cancer for a little more than half of 2026, and then will make its way into Leo.

Jupiter's exalted in Cancer.

So the period of time, like a lot of Chiron's final stretch in Aries is square to Jupiter being exalted in Cancer.

And this piece that you're bringing in of, like, I was supposed to be the child, but then I was the teacher.

And the pain of that.

And this feels related to the awareness gap piece that we were talking about earlier, where I'm like, there is value in acknowledging that and that's not the end of the story.

Is I think about.

I can't bring this up without talking about Ram Dass, who was a Cancer rising with Jupiter exalted in the first house.

And one of his most popular famous quotes ever is, we're all just walking each other home.

And that to me is Cancer's knowing.

And Jupiter in Cancer is this, like, understanding of that it has been.

I knew this before the Jupiter in Cancer ingress, but I'm a Sag rising in a sag perfected year.

Like Jupiter is my ruler and my Time Lord.

And I feel that this Jupiter in Cancer transit has really shown me in no uncertain terms and given me very obvious places to see this in my matrix, that we are all just walking each other home.

And that when I am in a position of teacher, hold on.

My headphones came unplugged.

When I'm in a position of teacher, this has nothing to do actually with the goodness or badness or rightness or wrongness or superiority or inferiority.

It's Just in this moment in the Matrix, I'm teaching you this.

I'm playing this role for you.

And in every moment in the Matrix of reality, we are all simply doing that for each other.

There is no ultimate hierarchy around that.

There is the materialization of hierarchy within the illusion of the Matrix as we dance through these roles together.

But this is just karma working itself out.

This is just what it is to be alive in the interconnectedness.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I've been really feeling into the Jupiter in Cancer Square too much of this final, final Chiron through Aries moment.

Hold on.

There was a couple things that I was wanting to get to.

Oh, okay.

And then I'm also really feeling into Pluto in Aquarius.

And we've more recently entered this era with Pluto in Aquarius, which I think by the end of this transit, humanity as a whole is going to have a completely unrecognizable understanding of the mind.

That's what it feels like to me is happening.

There's like a total decimation of our relationship to mind.

And knowing Aquarius being.

I know.

And mind and ego are inextricable in a way.

They have a very specific relationship to each other.

So I've also just.

In the last few days, as I've been trying to feel into Chiron and the shift from Chiron in Aries to Taurus a little bit more, I've also been feeling into 2026 as a transition year where Chiron in Aries is sextile by sign, not tight in any way, but by sign sextile to Pluto in Aquarius.

So there's a real opportunity for the final moments of Chiron in Aries and the wound of separation.

And I can't believe I haven't said this yet on this call, but my go to Chiron in Aries phrase.

Where have you been abandoning yourself for fear of being abandoned by the other.

So continuing to heal from compulsions of codependency.

There's a real possibility for a real potential for collaboration between this wound that's been being brought up and cleared around our individuality, our differentiation, our separation, having to go like, I want to keep going on this Chiron and Aries thread for a moment.

It's like we don't have a choice but to metabolize all the pain of the world in this body in this moment.

Like, yes, everything's connected, but the grid work of collective healing and collective transmutation doesn't happen, except for through each of us doing that on the internal level in the individuated plane, which 2027 contexts.

Right.

We're coming from cross of planning, where the point was our collaboration and our cooperation into the cross of sleeping Phoenix, where the point is now to individuate even more away from that, to have this individual awakening within and to come back to the sextile.

If Pluto in Aquarius is completely redestroying and creating a seed for rebirth of our orientation to mind, to collective mind, to ideology, to understanding, to knowledge, then this 2026 is a in 2025 as well.

It's a period of time where all of this like very local individual addressing of the wounds and of the aloneness and the separation has this sextile relationship potential to collaborate with that before Chiron moves back into a square relationship with Pluto, which it will be doing in early Taurus a little bit this year and then for good beyond.

So.

Yeah.

Anything else on Chiron in Aries or do you feel anything connected to the Pluto stuff?

Or is it time to.

I'm sure we'll spiral back several times.

Is it time to kind of feel into what might change in our experience of healing and spiritual bridging and transcending the binary and integrating our other dimensional parts with our human part as Chiron makes this transition from Aries to Taurus?

You know, when we opened this conversation, I had had this thought that never occurred to me before, Kelsey, which I feel like in hindsight should have occurred, but here we are, which was that we are coming off of this era of the outer planets.

Right.

Pluto, Uranus, Neptune being in water and Earth signs, while Chiron was in a fire sign sign.

And now we're entering an era where Pluto, Neptune and Uranus are in fire and air signs and Chiron is in an Earth sign.

So I think it's interesting to see like the contrast between the two.

Right.

Chiron seems to be in this era we're living in, at least seems to be holding down the fort in an element, an area of the chart that the outer planets are not occupying.

So.

So there is something here, I think, also specifically thinking about 2026, if we're to zoom in on that, there's something interesting about this liminal period of Chiron dipping into Taurus, coming back to Aries, joining the choir of the background frequency.

Right.

And then dipping out again, going back into Taurus.

Yeah, I just wanted to mention that pattern because I think there's something interesting to consider.

Yeah.

And.

Yeah, well, Chiron itself, like part of what I'm hearing here is like Chiron itself has Kind of been doing its own thing separate from what's actually been happening.

And I'm kind of reflecting on sort of the leap of faith that it has taken to continue to prioritize spirituality and individuality and differentiation amidst a dying world and a collective reality that does all but demand our attention.

Goes to it.

Is that tracking what I'm saying?

Like, it's like, I feel like so much of my work and my teaching has been helping people recalibrate locally, locally, locally to Aries.

Even then.

Even then.

Okay, come back to you.

What is that for you?

What about you?

And so, yeah, it's kind of interesting the way that you're bringing that in to say, okay, now the shift into fire and air, right?

That's what's huge this year.

Saturn, Neptune, conjunction, and Aries, Uranus moving into Gemini, even Jupiter moving into Leo, the nodes even moving out of water, Earth into fire, air.

Like, yeah, like, yes.

And yet Chiron, still mostly in Aries, is going to dip into Taurus.

And so it's feeling like Chiron has been doing all of this really localized work through our system to prepare for all of the other planets to get there.

And then Chiron is going to turn its attention back to materiality.

There's a lot we could talk about there.

But one of the things that's been coming up for me is like, we had to fully embrace, like, all this time Chiron has been under Mars rulership in Aries.

And so much of the task has been embracing separation, embracing the task of Mars, embracing the violence of that, the violence and the pain of what it is to separate from the mother, from source, from each other.

And this year and next year, Mars will be handing off rulership of Chiron back to Venus.

And I've been feeling into even just from the most basic understanding of the function of Mars and the function of Venus with Chiron in Aries, we have had to, under the rulership of Marsh, healing through the task of separation.

And with Chiron moving back into Venus's territory, we might say the healing is going to come from the task of reconnecting, coming back together.

Yep, yep.

And I've been thinking about that in terms of, you know, one of the biggest ways that I think the illusion of the binary is showing up in the Maya right now is through political divide.

Pluto in Aquarius is here too.

Right?

Like ideology.

And just you can see right now how it doesn't matter what happens.

People are going to see it, how people are going to see it.

Right.

The power, the strength of the ego mind, the clinging of the ego mind.

And I'm wondering, like, I just, I had this moment of hope in the shower this morning when I was just like really going back to basics and thinking of what does it mean Mars to hand off rulership of Chiron to Venus.

It gave me this sense of like, the task will be to come back together, to in some way heal that divide, to find ways to recover connectivity in physical connectivity and physical form.

And there's a lot here too where I'm thinking about the tribal keys of the new era versus the old era.

So I'll just say that that's informing some of where I am here.

But.

But one of the main things that I felt myself returning to over and over and over in the last very many years, where I have been at first not knowingly and then knowingly and then forgetting and remembering over and over, like being a agent of Chiron and Aries in large part is I've been having to see for myself and been teaching over and over and bringing people back to like annoying defined throat, fifth line mind style.

Like it keep.

It comes down to this, you guys, heresy keeps coming down to this.

This is all it really is, is that anytime we are compulsively acting from an assumption of what we think other people need from us, we are actually getting in the way of experiencing true connection there.

Yes.

And so it has required this willingness, this courage, this.

Yeah.

This willingness to accept, to separate and to take personal responsibility and to metabolize whatever we're meeting, whatever pain of separation we're meeting, whether on the individual, relational or collective level, to metabolize that through our own system, to take responsibility, to go, okay, what does that feel like for me?

Me?

Where what would my compulsive move be to try to avoid the discomfort of this?

And can I meet that myself?

Can I become increasingly resourced to meet that myself so that I can become increasingly less codependent on others and on external reality to heal that for me.

And it's through that coming more and more towards a radical honesty and a capacity to be accepting in the moment of whatever's there that we have been like, the words are really failing me, as they often do, but the energy of it's here where like that becomes the foundation for our ability to actually deeply connect with the other.

And I don't know what that means for those that haven't, you know, been consciously working through this abandonment wound and consciously tending to the ego mind and its grasp.

I'm not sure what that means.

But maybe this comes back to what we were talking about that I was kind of feeling into Leo Aquarius stuff with.

It doesn't actually matter that much what the other ego mind is up to.

I think this is energy work.

Right.

This is attunement.

This is.

I hold the frequency, and it's not actually about me or my mind or my knowledge or my awareness.

It's about me holding the frequency for the Matrix to do its own thing.

And so when I do that, when I let my own mind get out of the way and I relax and I hold the frequency, then it doesn't matter what this person's ideology is or this person's experience of their shadow is, or this person's own capacity to regulate their nervous system is.

I am doing that through holding the frequency in this moment.

Yeah.

Take it from there.

I don't know.

This is reminding me of one of the keys that are shifting, actually, from cross of planning to cross of sleeping.

Phoenix, Kelsey, which is from aloneness to sexuality.

40 to 59.

Yeah.

I think you might.

You might know more than I do in terms of just kind of intellectual understanding here.

But do you feel like that shift from Chiron in Aries to Chiron in Taurus has reverberations to 40 to 59?

Yeah, I think I'm being largely influenced by that, consciously and otherwise.

Yeah, for sure.

I was psychically reading that.

Yeah, for sure.

It's like, if we are not willing to meet, like, I've been talking and thinking so much about compulsion versus spontaneity lately.

And for me, like, Pluto's in my third house.

I recently had Saturn in my third house.

So for me, a lot of my own hard work has been around being more honest with myself about my habituated distractions and being willing to look at that and go, okay, I've been trying to distract myself from some kind of uncomfortable feeling.

And it's the willingness to be with the uncomfortable feeling that creates the potential to release that and to alchemize through it.

Right.

And so I've been like, yeah, just really looking at reality and relationship and a lot of things through the lens of compulsion and spontaneity.

And when we're trapped and compulsion, that is a result of the ego mind grasping.

And it keeps us in patterns of dissociation.

It keeps us in patterns of dishonesty with ourselves and with each other.

And yet we do so much of that in an attempt to stay in a facade of connection and harmony with ourselves and with each other.

And so I Think, yeah, like as I've really felt into 59 and the role, the way that 59 sexuality or dispersion or intimacy fits into the eight new keys of the sleeping phoenix cross and the penetration cross.

I've been really feeling into how, you know, 59 is opposite 55 which comes from the 3955 gate, which is all about emotional provocation.

So there's like a real necessity for honesty.

It just keeps coming back to me to honesty.

Like if I can be honest with myself about what I'm mean meeting in any moment inside of me and outside of me, then I have the capacity to experience real connection with the person sitting across from me or with whoever is sitting with me in whatever parasocial, non parasocial way.

And the dispersion piece of the 59 is really relevant here as well.

Like 596 is the channel of mating, reproduction.

And I think a lot about how Ra talked about the projector type as the new leader.

It's not leading by force, it's leading through individual one on one awareness and guiding.

So I think about that a lot with 59 as a new key as well.

The temple, it's the where it's the entire physical context of how spirit moves through us, how reality unfolds.

It's the temple lock.

And so that's going to happen through deep penetrative, authentic relating and coming back to like Chiron shifting from Mars influence into Venus's in 2026 and 2027.

This all feels connected because I see that real change happens only in real change, real awakening, real connection, realness happens only in the context of radical honesty, which I'm also.

This is also Saturn coming into Aries radical honesty.

And it's.

Yeah, it's the, it's the only option.

And I think the part, I think it's not gonna feel instant.

Right, Right.

But this is a big picture what we're moving into.

But there's a lot of residue of like if we look at what the tribal keys were in the last era, we're looking at 37, 40 and 32.

So, so much having to do with like capitalism, building something that will last is that 32 legacy, continuity, 42 increase, like gain, accumulation and then the bargains within that.

These are the old tribal keys.

So these are a context of how we through relationship orient to the material reality that are becoming outdated.

And 59 is one of the two new contexts through which we will relate to each other and to our material reality.

And 59 of the two new tribal keys the other one, being 54, is all about this really deep, penetrative, honest connection, authentic connection.

Not for any sake other than to deeply connect, to have intimacy.

Not for the sake of building something, not for the sake of trading something, just for the sake of intimate connection.

Well, and I guess also reproduction, dispersion of the species.

And in the Sleeping Phoenix era, perhaps dispersion of the awakening through the species.

Yeah.

So, yeah, like, true intimacy is Chiron and Taurus, perhaps, like, maybe that's a big piece of it.

True intimacy is how we heal moving forward.

But a predecessor to that true, deep intimacy was a real willingness to sever, to come back to the self, to assimilate as an individual.

And that handoff, that transition is still.

We just get a taste of Chiron in Taurus this year, a few months.

Should we Name it here?

June 19, Chiron enters Taurus, then stations retrograde before it even hits 1 degree on August 3rd, and is back into Aries for the rest of the year by September 17th.

So I'm really looking forward to seeing what that actually feels like.

And I would like to maybe.

I know we're pretty deep in time right now, but I would like to maybe talk a little bit about some things we might anticipate seeing in more like physical reality.

Be physical Chiron and Taurus.

Yeah, sure.

And doesn't have to be physical, but maybe physical reality too, with Chiron in Taurus.

But yeah, it makes sense, I think maybe to just have really focused a lot of this conversation on the kind of anoretic feeling, the really big buildup, culmination of what Chiron and Aries has been.

I agree.

Yeah.

Chiron and Taurus coming back to connection, coming back to the body, coming back to value.

Resource.

We talked a lot about resource, but in a different and application.

But yeah, resource.

Yeah.

What's.

What's here?

Yeah, I'll share what's coming up.

So with regards to Chiron and Aries, I'm just gonna pull something from my personal gnosis here and from conversations I've had with people too.

Authenticity is not this pretty baby pink thing that is often sold on Instagram.

Right.

True authenticity is somewhat exhausting.

As you just pointed out, Kelsey, we are coming out of an era where the cross of planning is all about creating those.

Trader Joe's Salad Kit.

Right here is how you need to relate.

This is what a marriage looks like.

This is what a partnership looks like.

This is what a friendship looks like.

And everything's breaking apart now, right?

Nobody.

Everybody's looking for the salad kit, but they're not finding one.

And I think authenticity is actually exhausting.

I get a lot of clients who come to me having recovered from the promise, the mental mind, ego promise, that once you step into authenticity, everything's gonna work out.

Your business is going to be fabulous.

You're going to look the best that you've ever been in your life.

You're going to get millions and millions of followers.

You never have to work a day anymore in your life.

You just chill in Bali, right?

We are at the end in this anoretic degree period of Chiron and Aries, I think, realizing this is not happening there, you know, and it's even interesting, Kelsey, I have been listening to podcast conversations with some people who were very active circa like 2019, 2021.

And if you remember, this was the time when there was a lot of.

There was this kind of individuation that was happening where people were, you know, leaving their corporate jobs, they're starting their entrepreneurship journey, and many of them were very much in kind of the boss bape energy, right?

And it's so interesting to see where some of these people are at now because many of them have matured and they have actually settled into a version of their business that is much more grounded, much more just who they are.

And it's not so much about trying to prove something through leaving the machine, so to speak, right?

They're really just kind of building a life of their own.

But there is an altitude sickness, I think, that has to be dealt with when we are moving out of this.

Because in some ways it's true, right?

We are so sick of not being authentic.

But as we step into authenticity, the fourth wall breaks down, right?

You are no longer in the performance.

You're starting to live your own path.

And there's something very confronting about that because maybe your authentic path is you are not someone who is there to be on Instagram having millions and millions of followers.

You are just here to serve the five people who you're meant to share your gifts with.

I had this experience with my music, actually.

Last time I shared my music, granted, Pluto was in my fifth house.

I recognized I had this experience.

People were.

People are still listening to my album, Kelsey.

Up until now, I would get random messages, people of people telling me that my album meant a lot to them, but the album was not a commercial success, us by any.

Any standard that the ego can come up with, right?

And it's not.

That's not to say it wasn't authentic.

That's not to say it didn't have.

It didn't serve any purpose or any function.

Right.

In anybody's evolution, including my own, maybe most especially my own.

So I think that first, if I were to make a straight up guess, that shift from Chiron in Aries into Chiron in Taurus is actually going to bring like a settling in of a certain kind of somatic exhaustion.

Right.

We've been doing this individual individuating work for a lot of people, and when Chiron moves into Taurus, there's actually kind of a body level awareness of, wow, this is really exhausting.

Authenticity feels hard in the body because when you commit to being authentic, you are constantly reminding yourself to come back to the present moment.

Right.

Some people have been in that practice for a while.

For others, it's relatively new.

And I think as we shift more and more into it, as we acclimate to this new era, There's going to be this question that we are all grappling with around.

And you and I talk about this in our voice memos change.

How do we as a being that has an awareness of the uniqueness of our own frequency, how do we live that out in the world?

How do we start to build systems both internally and externally that allow us to live into that and allow the frequency to have a place to live?

The last thing I'll say is you and I have this other conversation for my podcast in the books, Kelsey, and it was actually inspired after I recorded a conversation with a friend who's an Aquarius sun.

And I was very inspired to hear her experience of being inside of her 10th house.

So, you know, the 10th house in astrology is where people share their gifts publicly, right?

Where they get up on stage and they, you know, welcome to my TED Talk kind of vibe.

Right.

And.

And it was so interesting to hear her experience of what it's like to create that behind the scenes because it takes a lot of work.

And it made me aware, being in that conversation with her, that the work of authentically sharing your gifts out in the world is almost like a Herculean feat for a lot of people, right.

It's.

It's Promethean in nature because so much work goes into it.

And yeah, I'm really excited to continue exploring that because I think Chiron in Taurus is also holding down the fort around this idea that.

And Uranus has been in Taurus, right?

So Uranus has been, you know, this period of Uranus being in Taurus to me is like people awakening to the reality that they have bodies.

It's so easy to bypass the reality that we have a body.

Right.

Remember 2019, when all of us were traveling all the time.

We were just running around like crazy right before the pandemic happened.

And I think this period of Uranus and Taurus has been reminding people, okay, you have a body and.

And that's actually your system.

Right.

When we think about form, when we think about limitations, our body is our primary limitation.

We are limited by this body.

And so going into this era, I think there's going to be a lot more awareness, healing, mentoring, even that's needed, formally or informally, of people making peace with their own bodies, which by extension making peace with the ways that their minds work.

So I'm imagining, you know, there's going to be a continuation of deeper and deeper understanding of, for example, neurodivergence, different mental health states of being, mental health related states of being, what it means to reconcile and heal our relationship with our ancestry.

And also.

I think that the climate change we're experiencing is also going to evolve our idea of what it means to have a body.

And maybe the role that money plays as well.

Yeah.

When you were talking about authenticity being exhausting, it was feeling kind of in the same thread of like, what I was articulating is like when I hold the frequency for someone and play the role of chiron and then they like have their moments of realization and we're just kind of like looking at each other across the table, across the matrix, going like, this is all there is.

This is all there is.

Yeah, it feels kind of in the same, same vein as that, that like authenticity and authentic expression is not only this like, audacity girl, boss taking up space thing, it's also the work of constantly coming back to yourself to check in, to validate, to resource, to clear, to do the energetic hygiene, to anchor, to process, to alchemize.

And a couple things are coming to mind there.

It's like one, the invisible labor of that.

That's been something that's been coming up for me a lot.

And I think this is connected to some of what we talked about with ego and recognition and Aquarius, Leo gridwork.

Stuff that I think will probably come back in this series, perhaps around the nodes and maybe Jupiter in Leo as well.

Well, maybe Pluto in Aquarius too.

These are definitely big themes this year and beyond, like what's the role the individual plays in the collective and grid work, et cetera, et cetera.

But there's also this piece to, you know, I have A defined ego.

So there's this piece to like, even when.

Even when fully relaxed into the flow of the grid work.

And my ego mind is like as out of the way as it can possibly be.

There's still a part of me that needs to know that I'm.

That there's reciprocity somehow here, that I'm being fed somehow from this.

And maybe sometimes the feeding happens through money, through recognition, other times it happens through some kind of sacred reciprocity, the orchestration of which I do not understand.

And those times take a lot more trust and surrender than when the reciprocity is showing up in a more third dimensionally ego, mind digestible way way.

But there's this piece of the invisible labor of it that has felt important to me.

And it feels similar to the awareness gap stuff where I don't necessarily need someone else to acknowledge that there's an awareness gap in our exchange or to acknowledge all the invisible labor that I have done to be able to be here in this role and play whatever role I'm playing as a fifth line projection screen.

But I need to acknowledge that for myself.

I need to acknowledge the invisible labor that I'm doing right now and that I have done for so much of my life leading up to this moment, to be able to hold the frequency right now and play whatever role I'm playing.

And my own acknowledgement of that invisible labor, which perhaps might be paired with my own acknowledgement of any potential awareness gap present, is like my own way of giving myself permission to self attune, to self prioritize, to bring it back to my own system.

My own digestion, my own subjective experience, my own metabolizing.

So there's something in that.

And I was starting to feel into like, I've been noticing lately that I'm starting to use words like healing, shadow work, deconditioning, integration, all interchangeably.

And it started making me wonder if like authenticating is one of those as well.

Like actually being in a flow of authentic expression of the self is not some glamorous thing at all.

And then I started feeling into Neptune, just having left Pisces as well.

And like how Neptune in Pisces was really this popularization of and glamorization of, of the spiritual components of life.

And Neptune leaving Pisces is gonna kind of like we're gonna.

Some of that's gonna shatter, right?

And I think that's part of what we're talking about too, like seeing for ourselves that.

You know, I got into yoga, which was my first Spiritual practice that really took any strong hold on me because I saw the studio and it was pretty.

And the kind of people who did yoga and went to that studio, like, seemed like people I wanted to be near and be like.

And like, there's the allure of that perhaps pulled me in.

But then once I was here, it was like, oh, that's not what that is.

This is actually invisible labor that I'm doing for me and that I will have some beautiful fleeting moments of, like, when I sit with you, Jonathan, and when you open our podcast with beautiful recognition as you south node in LEO cohort.

People tend to be really fucking skilled at, you know, and there's like, certain relationships and people that, like, I'm.

When I'm not grasping, I have this, like, beautiful moment of feeling really satiated.

Like my invisible labor is recognized.

Right.

My alchemy is recognized.

But if you're doing it for that, you know, you're not doing it right.

Or at least in those moments, you're not doing it.

So that was some of what was coming through.

Just like, yeah, the fire of Aries and the fire of the work.

The shadow of it all.

There was something else.

Oh, okay.

And then coming back into the Taurus piece, the money stuff is really interesting.

I kind of wish that we had a little more space to talk about that, but maybe we do like a Chiron and Taurus follow up when we've had a little taste of it.

But you brought up in our voice notes, like capitalism and crypto.

Yeah, and all of that has.

I haven't gotten that into it, but there are some people who have.

Like the Uranus and Taurus ingress has a whole other arc with cryptocurrency.

Right.

I saw something online.

I wish I could remember who said it.

I'm not a South node in leo, so I'm not as good at that part.

But someone said something just in passing somewhere about how Chiron and Taurus could be the transit where we see.

I don't remember what specific way they phrased it, but like an end to or a real renegotiation of consumerism.

And so part of how that's coming up for me with the things that we ended up playing with today and with this compulsion thing that keeps being really present for me.

Compulsion as a way to deny the moment, where being alive in the moment and honest in the moment feels like an Aries thing to me.

Uranus in Taurus, all of the realization of having a body, the nervous system as a vehicle for our liberation.

Has been very present to me with Uranus in Taurus and that as a predecessor to Chiron in Taurus and healing our relationship with material reality.

I'm just seeing like, there's been a process for myself and I think for many of being more spiritually, mentally, emotionally and somatically resourced to be honest with the moment and therefore to challenge compulsive behaviors.

And the thread I've been trying to get to here with a possible like physical, material resource manifestation of Chiron in Taurus and what themes might show up is what happens to consumerism when more and more people have healed their relationship to compulsive consumption.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this feels connected also to like this, this.

You brought this in a little bit.

And we've kind of been talking about it indirectly, like Instagram spirituality and Instagram healing versus the actual invisible labor happening behind the scenes.

And what does that mean about like my followers and my bank account and like taking all these cross of planning metrics.

Yeah.

To understand our success or not, like, those aren't the metrics moving forward.

And that takes a whole huge fucking leap of faith.

And this is the invisible labor that I feel I've been doing and inviting people into.

And that I think is probably going to evolve, but continue like this is the seed that we're moving forward on is like divesting more and more and more from every metric.

That external authority that the cross of planning that capitalism has offered us as the metrics that discern for us whether or not we are happy, successful, satisfied, at peace, et cetera, and bringing it back to the self in the moment.

And that is so scary to the ego mind because it is literally like full car jumping off a cliff in every moment.

There is nothing in front of us to say.

And this has been so much of what my own radical experimentation with.

I could say experimentation with human design.

But what it really has been for me is a radical experimentation with differentiating knowing and trust is the.

The tether that I have to conventional success is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

It's dwindling away.

Like, follower account doesn't grow.

Bank account is not growing.

Like, there's no like any anything.

You could say, I don't own a house, you know, all of that like, and I think I have my own.

Maybe this will be some of my Chiron and Taurus stuff is I have my own ways that that becomes binary and limited beliefs come around that.

And I really do feel myself that I'm on this cusp of entering an era Where I work through some of that and I have more of a capacity to experience actual 3D security.

And.

I'm just saying that because I know how strong the binary is.

I'm saying it to inoculate myself as well as perhaps any listeners that I don't think you have to go broke to evolve.

I don't think that in any way.

And I'm like looking at that binary within myself right now.

But okay, the thing I wanted to get to is that as my tether to conventional security and success dwindles and dwindles and dwindles, I am being more deeply tethered and anchored to something else.

And my trust in that is growing every day through this radical experimentation.

And so yeah, I just, I'm looking at the potential for our relationship to things like physical security, physical resourcedness, connection, embodiment, all things fixed, Earth, all things Taurus.

I'm looking at the way that Uranus in Taurus is a predecessor or finding liberation through the fixicity of the body, through the fixed capacity or non capacity of the body.

Simultaneous but in non aspect, like in a blind spot to Chiron and Aries, healing our capacity to be honest with ourself in the moment about what's here for this separate fragment of consciousness that is this being that is each of us.

Yeah, just like feeling into the possibility as Chiron moves into Taurus.

For all of that invisible labor of recalibrating in every moment to the truth of the now and the self, setting us up for the capacity to maybe make some new bonds might be a way of putting it with physical reality and physical resourceness and connection that come on a foundation of honesty like we've never seen before.

So now that I'm not so afraid of being honest about my values and my process and me, how might that show up in my physical world?

Circumstance of relationship, of money, of resourceness, of security.

And that's where we begin.

That's just the baby steps of beginning to see this new potential way of co creating reality, which we know from our 2027 Global Cycle Study is like the collective agreements and collective arrangements are not the point in the next era like they were in the last.

And yet we still live in a co created reality.

There are still going to be new systems, new templates, new blueprints, but they're going to be built on this foundation of individuality and individuation.

Yes.

So what is that?

I don't know.

But I imagine this somewhat lengthy transit of Chiron and Taurus like the stage of materiality, material resource, material connection, material security is where some of this deep healing work to come back to how I was talking about Chiron earlier, where some of this bridging work is gonna happen, where we access the bridge between our human selves and our spirit selves, it's gonna happen in a more material way, which is interesting.

To bring it back to what you brought in that kind of brought us to this leg of the conversation is interesting.

Consider that that's gonna be the particular stage for our chironic journey.

While all this other stuff is happening on air and fire.

It's almost hard to even imagine what that is.

For the Chiron journey to be one that's happening in a more physically manifest, tangible way while everything else is.

Yes, yes, very ungrounded.

Healing becomes grounded while everything else, I.

Don'T know, becomes wilder, maybe more distorted.

Yeah, I, as you were speaking, I was tuning into this question of what it means to create actual stability.

Right.

Not stability that we were building in order to show off to other people.

You know, it's so interesting because growing up, up when adults around me told me that I needed a stable job, the psychic picture they were showing me was you need to be able to prove that you are as good as everybody else.

Right.

Which isn't true stability.

True stability is about prioritizing the nervous system.

It's about making sure needs are met.

Right.

When I walk around in New York City and I see the level of essentially what happens to people who are unhoused, the unhoused population here and then to think that this is the system we dream of as the apex of wealth is so.

There's so much bullshit in that.

Right.

It's so untrue.

True.

So I think the question with Chiron and Taurus is how do we build systems that actually feel stabilizing to us, you know, and that might look like a lot less than what we're used to, but that's not to say that it's not abundant.

Yeah.

True stability is accessible by building on a foundation of.

I don't know which Aries words to choose, but radical honesty, individuation, differentiation.

Think a lot of how I've.

On a practical noteworth, we can maybe kind of try to bring it back to this as a sign off point.

On a practical note, perhaps I would bring it back around to what I feel like I was inserting as I was hearing you dance with what's true stability, actually, because it's not this thing we've been saying it is and working towards that's become clear.

I was feeling myself returning to that true stability has to do with from a human design perspective, signature.

Like for me, peace, the presence of peace and my capacity to be honest with myself in the moment about whether I'm experiencing it or not and which route might bring more of it into in that is the most stabilizing piece of knowledge I have ever actually met in my life.

For you satisfaction, right?

Like for energy beings, I feel like signature is a little more graspable cause it like literally has to do with the physical feeling of energy in our bodies.

Like signature is the practical way for you to resource stability internally.

And yeah, coming back around to like what's relevant with Chiron.

This year when I was doing a little clicking back and forth and looking at the astrology, I was seeing that, yeah, we're not done with Chiron in Aries yet.

Just to revisit the dates here, we have chiron in Taurus June 16 through September 17 of 2026.

So essentially summer, is that right?

Yeah, essentially summer.

But Chiron is back in Taurus for good in April of 2027.

And so what that means is that each of our personal planets, each of the upper tones, the sun, Mercury, Venus and Marswill all make their final conjunctions to Chiron in Aries this year, this spring.

Because by the time they come back around to the early part of the zodiac next year, Chiron has moved on.

So that feels really relevant to me and maybe a little bit of a more Kronos time anchor to this transition is we're gonna get a feel for Chiron in Taurus.

We already are.

You know, in voice noting you last week I was already kind of feeling into how some of these themes of embodiment being the next stage for this deep chironic bridge healing, other dimensional bridge healing.

But this year is about getting a taste of that and about really assimilating and like final boss energy, being honest with ourselves about where we're abandoning our own truth, our own even subjective passing truth in the moment where I'm abandoning my own peace, where you're abandoning your own satisfaction or the potential for peace or satisfaction in order to access some facade of stability, some facade of connection.

And I think, yeah, it's just interesting to look at this spring.

Whether it happens in some cases kind of significant outward facing manifestation of it or not, I don't know.

But it feels important to me to really savor the final spicy, painful juice of Chiron and Aries as all these upper planets will make their final conjunctions to it in 50 years.

Right?

Yeah.

One more little Kronos thing I noted is that all of these final conjunctions happen while Jupiter is still exalted in Cancer, coming more and more closely to the square to Chiron.

But Jupiter doesn't reach his exact square to Chiron until both have moved into fixed signs.

So there's also something around Jupiter in Cancer is hanging on long enough to remind us of the truth of our interconnectivity as a background frequency support.

As we have these additional final pings of the upper planets calling our attention to the pain of separation, but the inevitability of it.

There's this Jupiter.

Jupiter's holding the frequency of connectivity for us to remember that even in acting from our separateness, we are part of the One.

We are part of the matrix.

And then the final Mercury, Chiron conjunction and Aries happens just days before Mercury takes rulership of Uranus, when Uranus moves into Gemini.

So that felt like an overlay of the year.

That felt significant for me when I was doing a big zoom out that all of the uppers Mercury, because of its retrograde, I think, is the last to conjoin.

Chiron in Aries, will have their last moment with Chiron in Aries.

And then just as Mercury passes it and goes into Taurus, right after that, Uranus comes under Mercury's rulership by going into Gemini.

And I think there's something.

Yeah, maybe I'll save some of those thoughts for the Uranus conversation specifically.

But I think there's really something to our capacity to metabolize things through our individual system that is setting us up for a lot of the disarray that we're gonna experience with having a Mercury ruled Uranus instead of a Venus one.

Okay, I got to the punctuation I meant to get to.

And then a little further past that.

Okay, thank you, Jonathan.

Thank you, Kelsey.

This was incredible.

Always enjoy talking with you about big things.

You ground them into reality in ways that are very often unexpected for me and then very generative and fruitful from there.

So thank you.

Thanks for being a part of this.

Glad to hear.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Sam.