[00:00:00] I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

[00:00:14]

[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness, the shifts in our thinking.

[00:01:01] As regular listeners know, cultural intelligence, CQ is made up of four areas, motivational cq, drive. Cognitive CQ knowledge, metacognitive CQ Strategy and Behavioral CQ Action. All four of these capabilities help us operate well in situations of diversity. In this podcast, we are focusing more on the metacognitive aspect, the thinking about our thinking, and that is CQ strategy.

[00:01:32] Today's guest is a special friend and colleague from the inaugural CQ Fellows cohort in 2023. Can you believe it's that long ago? Kristal Walker is the vice President of Employee Wellbeing at Sweetwater, where she's responsible for crafting and leading wellness, diversity, and inclusion and training initiatives.

[00:01:53] She brings over 20 years of experience helping clients engage people, apply processes, and implement technology to improve human and organizational performance. Kristal holds a doctorate in organizational leadership, is a certified professional in training management, and is certified in various assessment tools.

[00:02:14] She's a thought leader in the training and development industry recently publishing insights about training, design, speaking at major industry conferences, but beyond all these impressive credentials, what I admire most about Kristal is her commitment to staying authentic to who she is while delivering exceptional results for her organization.

[00:02:36] Welcome Kristal.

[00:02:37] Kristal: Thank you so much, Trisha.

[00:02:40] Trisha: Lovely to have you here, and I'm looking forward to this discussion.

[00:02:43] Kristal: Absolutely. So am I. And I just wanted to applaud you for all of the work that you've been doing in the CQ space. That work that has been published and that work that is happening behind the scenes is absolutely impressive, and I'm just glad, happy and glad to be a part of this experience with you.

[00:02:59] Trisha: Oh, thank you, Kristal. That's really encouraging. Okay, we have standard opening questions, so here we go.

[00:03:06] Crystal, what is the culture other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?

[00:03:14] Kristal: I think Trisha, for me, it's not about a specific ethnicity or nationality per se, it's more about the type of culture. So for me I tend to thrive best in cultures that, or organically inclusive spaces where people don't have to code switch or shrink or explain a way of who they are just to belong.

[00:03:33] And I believe that when inclusion is built into the DNA of any specific culture, whether it is a professional culture. Whether it is a religious culture, whether it is a a very comfortable at home culture and it's not treated as a checkbox, then it creates sort of a rhythm where people like me can show up fully in who they are.

[00:03:53] And I think those are the cultures that I tend to gravitate to, and they're the ones where I tend to do my best work.

[00:03:59] Trisha: And have you found many of them?

[00:04:02] Kristal: I have not found many of them, but I've also learned how to not force myself to be in those organizations that will require me to compromise my personal integrity and my values.

[00:04:12] Yeah.

[00:04:13] Trisha: Yeah. That is hard.

[00:04:14] And may more and more of those cultures proliferate.

[00:04:18] Kristal: That's exactly right. I think it's important for us to do work like this so that we could start to create those cultures, or at least teach others how to create those cultures.

[00:04:26] Trisha: Yeah, absolutely. Hey, can you tell me about a time when you experienced the shift? So when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?

[00:04:37] Kristal: Oh, sure. I think one, I was thinking about this question a lot 'cause I kind of figured it would come up just with the title and the theme of your podcast series. And one of the most defining moments for me, I believe was when I had started my doctoral journey. What many if you know me personally, you know, I, I don't mind sharing my very transparent story, but I was a high school dropout.

[00:04:59] I dropped outta high school at the age of 18 to give birth to my oldest son, and slowly but surely, I started making my way back into the professional workspace, personal professional development. I pursued my high school diploma at the age of 21 with the help of a college counselor. I ended up going back and I pursued my bachelor's degree at 23, masters at 24, and a doctoral degree at 31.

[00:05:22] But I started the doctoral journey at about 26 years old already being a parent to three children, three small children. Whom I was raised in as a single parent. And so my journey kind of, transitioned between being a high school dropout or transitioned from, I should say, being a high school dropout to a first generation college graduate and stepping into academia or that space in general, it really forced me to reframe my mindset around what's possibility.

[00:05:52] I knew for sure. Trisha, that I didn't wanna be another statistic. I know for sure that I didn't wanna be a black woman on welfare raising kids alone and that was the end of my story. And so for me personally, pursuing education, specifically higher education was more around how can I prove to myself and my children and those who will come after me, that it is possible, it doesn't matter how your story starts, but more importantly how you're able to craft and be very intentional about your story. So for me it wasn't just about the intellect that I would acquire by pursuing this degree or these opportunities, but it was more about the emotional, the spiritual to some degree the professional, the financial aspect of freedom that I would acquire as a result of this level.

[00:06:38] And so I had to shift, from survival mode to how can I position myself to thrive in this new culture where there's not a lot of us at that time, I think out of the entire, class that I was in, the cohort that I was in, it was maybe about 75 of us at that time pursuing a doctorate degree. And maybe if I can count maybe possibly 10 African Americans on one hand.

[00:07:03] And so we were absolutely the minority. I had to challenge some of my own deeply rooted narratives some things that I had internalized as normal because of some of the trauma that I experienced coming up as a young child specifically in an impoverished African American community and what I may have saw as normal.

[00:07:22] Because of some of the cultural aspects, I had to unlearn and relearn that a lot of that was not normal. And I think the academic shift for me, it wasn't just an academic journey, it was more transformational for me in terms of my lifestyle. It taught me that I didn't have to get permission from my past to be who I wanted to be in the future.

[00:07:40] And I think that was the first time that I really started to lean into a shift in how a shift in thinking can transform your very life. Not just your life, but those who are watching you, those who are glued into your story, those who may come in with one perspective because they see you operating in one light and they're literally watching the pivot happen in real time.

[00:08:03] And so it's given them a completely different perspective, not just of you and what they're witnessing with you, but what the possibilities are for themselves as well.

[00:08:12] Trisha: Yeah, exactly, like a role model. It must have been a sense of rethinking yourself also, or did you always have the vision? Do you think that you could be that?

[00:08:23] Kristal: You know, I think growing up I had a vision of what I didn't want.

[00:08:27] Trisha: Right.

[00:08:27] Kristal: You know, I knew I didn't want. A life filled with poverty. I didn't want a life filled with drama or trauma. I didn't want a life of living in survival mode for the rest of my life. And so while I didn't necessarily have a clear picture of what I wanted, I knew if I can pursue the opposite,

[00:08:46] of what I had been living. That was a fresh start. And then I think the more that I started to acquire some wins in my life, just based off choices and decisions that I made the vision for my life started to be so much more clearer. I started finding role models who maybe were even tangibles, so it may not have been.

[00:09:04] People that I had an opportunity to meet up close and personal, but maybe people that I watched afar and I watched how they had transitioned their stories and their lives, and I thought, heck, if they can do it, I certainly can. And so that was the model for me.

[00:09:19] Trisha: Right, and hopefully you'll continue being that model for others.

[00:09:23] Kristal: Yeah.

[00:09:24] I hope too.

[00:09:24] Trisha: Yeah. I think anyone who's following you, on LinkedIn would be very aware of the respect with which you are held in the training industry in the US and in the us. Do we say the training industry or learning and development, or are the two terms interchangeable?

[00:09:40] Kristal: They're interchangeably. There's an actual organization called the training industry here training Industry Inc. That I, I. I kind of deem myself to have grown up in the training industry because they've helped me really create a brand with the resources that I've been able to publish, the resources that I've been able to access through their platform.

[00:09:59] But then there is the training industry, or the corporate training, or learning and development industry in general.

[00:10:06] Trisha: you know, I've been reading those publications and seeing the pictures of you presenting at conferences. I know that you have developed the four D model for training. So can you walk us through what each of those D's looks like, particularly when we apply it to cultural intelligence training?

[00:10:24] Kristal: Absolutely. So I'll explain first what the model is and how it came to be, and then I'll explain it also in the context of cultural intelligence. So, it's formally titled The four D Learning Lifecycle. And it's a model that I created to help learning professionals think holistically about a training request and how to bring that training request to life.

[00:10:45] It's built on four phases. So the four Ds actually stand for design, develop, deliver, and debrief. And when you think about the design phase of this model, it's really all about strategy. So in this stage, I'm meeting with potential stakeholders and I'm asking questions to sort of qualify the training need.

[00:11:06] So oftentimes in this space. There's this concept that we refer to quite often as an order taker. And because many training professionals did not opt to be a training professional when they were younger they just sort of landed in the space either because they're really good at what they do.

[00:11:24] They are great public speakers. They carry a lot of influence. It could. Potentially woo, an audience. They know how to transfer knowledge in a very unique way. And so, but they did not necessarily, you know, as a child or a young person say, Hey, when I grow up, I wanna be a trainer. And so oftentimes they're relying on those, transferable skills like project management, like critical thinking like the ability to analyze or present or active listening or communicate appropriately. And so oftentimes when you are confronted as a training professional with a training request, our default response is. Alright, cool. I'll take it on, I'll do it.

[00:12:03] But if we have not spent the time to unpack whether or not training is the true solution for the problem that's been presented to us, then we could miss the mark. With the true request, we end up solving for symptoms rather than the root cause. We end up losing credibility as a training professional because we've not been able to successfully solve the problem.

[00:12:26] One example that I can think of is, let's say you have, a team that's been working on some marketing, for example, and they have a marketing system that they typically will put out of their projects in sort of like a project management system for all of their management projects and therefore whatever reason they get behind on projects.

[00:12:43] And then you get a leader that will come to the training team and say, Hey, can you build some time management training for our marketing team? Because clearly they're having some time management issues because they aren't entering projects that are coming in in a timely fashion. Well. If I were that training organization, I could do just that.

[00:13:01] I can begin to build that training, or I can tap in and ask a couple of other questions, like, tell me more. What are some of the instances that you might discover and in that I may not discover, it wasn't a time management issue at all. It was a wifi issue. Just so happened that there's some systematic things happening behind the scenes.

[00:13:19] So that training design phase is all about strategy. It's all about asking the right questions. What are we trying to solve for? What are the learning objectives? Who are the learners? And so the goal is not to start building content until you've been able to answer all of those questions. Okay? So then once we've got all of that information dialed in, and then we move into the development phase. The development phase is all about building.

[00:13:44] Okay, so this is the phase where you tend to lean more heavily into your instructional materials, any sort of activities that you want to apply to really bring the training to life, any assessments that you wanna create so that you can ensure that by the time the training experience is over, it wasn't just an event, but it was an opportunity to actually apply or to get the learners to apply what it is that they've learned, to acquire the skills that they need, and then to apply what it is that they're learning in the training environment.

[00:14:13] And then after the training environment, once they transfer over to their jobs. So you got design, develop, and then you move into the delivery phase. And so oftentimes this is where we tend to see training professionals show up most when they're actually, you know, facilitating the training live and in person.

[00:14:31] But they have not done any of that sort of pre-work to get us to this point. And so at this point, sometimes it may look like someone just presenting bullets from a PowerPoint slide or someone just sharing information or telling. Oftentimes we miscommunicate or we misinterpret telling or sharing information as training actually occurring.

[00:14:52] And so the delivery stage is, it happens best when we've taken the time to do the previous steps. We're really sure about what it is that we're designing. We're developing something that has multiple components. We can really lean into what it is that our audience is expected of us, because we've asked all the right questions and we know exactly what tools is gonna help us articulate that message.

[00:15:13] So then delivery becomes more of just presenting PowerPoint. It's more of the art of facilitation. How can I engage the group in real time to pull out information that may not necessarily be part of my built-in curriculum, but it's life experiences, it's cultural experiences, it's dynamics. That they can actually share.

[00:15:33] That just enhances the learning experience overall. So it's the environment or the phase where learning is actually shaped. The energy for the learning experience is shaped. The knowledge is actually transferring by way of connection. And then you have the debrief stage, which is the last phase of the training.

[00:15:50] And that's a really critical step because that's the step That will inform you or let you know if the training actually worked. So are the learners able to put what they learned in the classroom or in the live training experience into practice? It's a phase where you get to reflect on the type of feedback that you got from the learners in terms of how they reacted to the training, that they actually learn a skill, you know, are there some behavior changing that we're seeing as a result of that?

[00:16:17] And are there any results of the company? In other words are, can we see the Kirkpatrick model, for example, reflected in the training that we just rolled out? So it's a good opportunity for the both the learner and the facilitator to get that necessary feedback. Capture any lessons. Tweak or modify any training that's necessary so that the next time you roll that out, it makes sense.

[00:16:38] And the good thing about this four D model is you can apply it to a five minute micro learning or year long leadership development program if you desire to. It's really about creating those meaningful moments that's gonna help really drive results.

[00:16:51] Trisha: Listeners, in case you're not familiar with Kirkpatrick, I will put the book reference in the show notes. it's one of those I have mine still from many years ago. Well, thumbed, it's still on the bookshelf, but yeah it's a classic in the learning and development field.

[00:17:06] Yeah. So when you're thinking about cultural intelligence training, how does that play out?

[00:17:12] Kristal: Yeah, so it's played out. And again, I wanted to explain just the context of the framework first, and then I can give you an example of how it works within a realm of cq. So it's played out oftentimes in some of the most meaningful learning experiences that I've built, at least. 'cause I'm also very mindful of what feels like to be excluded.

[00:17:30] So I am very intentional about trying to design training. That is inclusive for all that's centered around CQ and leadership. Enabling the learner to be able to apply what it is that they learned in real time. So typically using a four D model, I tend to start by designing the experience around real world tension points.

[00:17:49] Right. So what are some potential biases that can come up as a result of the learning experience? What are some potential miscommunication opportunities or some assumptions that may come up? And quite frankly, what are some challenges that I know learners may have when they go to apply this?

[00:18:08] Training or what they've learned in the training outside of the training environment. So that's all a part of my design I'm thinking and trying to be very proactive in understanding what are some of those tension points that they may struggle with so that the learning is not canceled once they leave the environment.

[00:18:25] And then once I have a general understanding of that, sometimes I can get that Trisha by just asking like, what are some of the challenges that you might experience? Sometimes I get that based on feedback that I get from others outside of the training experience. Sometime that feedback may come from the next level manager.

[00:18:40] Or what are some of the challenges that the learner may be experiencing on a job? And sometimes those challenges are not limited to the person. Sometimes they're organizational challenges as well.

[00:18:51] But once I get that information, then I tend to develop materials that aren't just informative, but more of reflective.

[00:18:57] So like prompts and different tools that's gonna require the learner to think

[00:19:02] Trisha: Absolutely. Gotta get that CQ strategy

[00:19:04] Kristal: Gotta get that strat you absolutely gotta get that CQ strategy activated. And it's more around how can you get them to reflect on their own behavior. So here's a scenario, how would you respond to that? And what I love to see happen, especially in a delivery phase, is when you kind of create that healthy discomfort for people to be aware of that.

[00:19:25] I've always thought about this particular scenario, this way. I had no idea that it could be interpreted this way, you know? And it's almost like you see this big aha moment come to life where people realize, well, I didn't even realize I was being offensive in that matter. I'll give you an example.

[00:19:41] So in the training that I did today I typically have, especially in this virtual format I typically have learners introduce themselves by first names. So we tend to remove titles and all that fun stuff, but usually by first name and in alphabetical order. And you know how clunky that can be when you're facilitating a Zoom environment, sometimes people don't know what order they're presenting or how they're showing up on your screen, so for me it's always, Hey, we're gonna go to alphabetical order by first name.

[00:20:09] I want you to introduce yourself. And so I had a couple of learners come up and here it is. I'm thinking I'm being courteous. One of the, I'll just make up the person's name, Jane, for example. All right, Ms. Jane, you're up next. Right? That is a regular common trait that I normally would do, but if I'm being inclusive as a part of my design, development and delivery process, I'm not gonna refer to Jane as a miss because maybe they refer to themselves as a, they.

[00:20:37] Or he, but it's something that is so common to us just based on what we see. And so when you throw in a factor of pronouns, which I'd admit there was a learning opportunity for me, I'm still learning how to navigate the use of pronouns and what's appropriate and what's not. But from my traditional sense of being a facilitator, I'm going based off what I see. But if that additional context is not provided, it can create some some frustration or anger or discomfort very easily without you, me even knowing it wasn't intentional at all. It was just, that's what I'm used to. So even when it comes to delivering training, if you can sort of create those prompts upfront to create.

[00:21:20] Some healthy tension, some healthy discomfort to get people talking about areas that may require them to come outta their comfort zone a little bit. That always helps. And then when it comes to debriefing, it's just about going deep. What did we reflect on? What are some of the challenges that we never would have known had we not had this experience?

[00:21:37] And then how can we challenge people to show up differently now that you know this information? And immediately when I was going through the introductions, my thought process was like, oh my God, I hope I didn't offend this person. And no one said anything. So I'm assuming we were all good. But I would've also hoped that if Jane in this instance would've identified as a, they.

[00:21:57] Or a he that they would've informed me so that I wouldn't misrepresent them even by way of an introduction. So it's not about impressing the learners per se, but more about equipping them to be able to do what they need. And so I feel like this four D model helps even in the context of cultural

[00:22:14] Trisha: Yeah, absolutely. It makes perfect sense. You deliver the training and then after that, how do you ensure that, the development of CQ becomes an ongoing process? Rather than just a one time event and people go back to work and you know, don't continue in their development and in their learning.

[00:22:35] Kristal: Well, I think the short answer is that you don't tend to make the training a hero. Like the training itself. The training even itself is not the hero. It's more about the lifecycle of the learning experience. So one of the reasons why I built a four D lifecycle is so that I can disrupt that one and done mentality that tends to plague a lot of corporate training professionals, right?

[00:22:57] So I think about in a design phase, I wanna teach, how do we think beyond a classroom? I may ask questions like. It to myself. How will the learners continue to engage with this topic a month from now? For example in the development phase I tend to bake in those reinforcement tools from the start, so I'm not waiting until I actually deliver it or until I debrief it.

[00:23:17] I'm baking in this context on these sort of questions like, or quick reference guides or job aids or manager coaching prompts even before we get started so that we don't isolate. The training to that one experience. In the delivery phase, I tend to train facilitators to invite those reflectors and to challenge assumptions whenever they can, but also to be mindful of that.

[00:23:38] And I think that's where that that meta cognition is really the heartbeat of what we're learning. In other words, how do we hold space for others to grow, especially when things can get a little messy. So I tend to do that by design and then really in a debrief phase. I like to evaluate, you know.

[00:23:55] Is there something that the learners not just remember, but what are they actually doing differently as a result of this and that we actually help move the needle in any way? So, again, short answer, but when I think about CQ development and how we can continue on its efforts, well after the training experience, it's about creating an opportunity for that content to be embedded into their learning experience and not just another episodic mode of training where, hey, this is a one and done, and when I leave here, I don't even have to think about this anymore.

[00:24:28] Trisha: Are you often getting intact teams or do they tend to be people spread across the organization?

[00:24:34] Kristal: Definitely spread across the organization, but I have just last week my visit to our headquarter campus, I had to do training for specific departments. It was by way of requests from their managers. One manager wanted us to do some training. It was to unpack a personality assessment with their team.

[00:24:52] So that went over really well. Another manager wanted me to come in and do some training. That was all for the women in the specific department because there was a need for that. Specifically in an industry that's pretty male, heavily dominated.

[00:25:05] But most of the training programs that I do, I would say there tend to be spread across the organization.

[00:25:10] You may have individual contributors and leaders from all across the organization coming in to learn various skills or knowledge. We do have some programs that are geared specifically for leaders, and then we have some that are open to all team members as well.

[00:25:26] Trisha: So those resources you talked about are really important to take back to their teams.

[00:25:31] Kristal: Absolutely.

[00:25:32] Absolutely.

[00:25:34] Trisha: In our conversations, Kristal, we've talked about the importance of staying authentic while delivering for your organization. Can you tell us a little bit about why this matters so much, particularly for leaders in corporate environments?

[00:25:51] Kristal: Absolutely Trisha. I think authenticity is one of the major tools that helps build credibility.

[00:25:58] If people can't trust who you are, they're always gonna question what it is that you do or what it is that you deliver,

[00:26:04] right? And so that is one of the prerequisites. Before I can go into any training environment, before I take any stage, obviously I'm going to understand my audience, and that doesn't mean that I can't be unfiltered, right? That's not a pass for me to just show up and say anything on stage or do anything on stage or to have an appearance that's not reflective of my audience. It's more about aligning my values with my voice. And so when I think about leaders who tend to stay rooted in their identity, especially in diverse spaces, they can make better connections with the audience.

[00:26:38] So I'm not gonna get in front of an audience and show up as an imposter and pretend to be someone who I'm not, because that's just gonna make for a funky experience for all of us, right? I'm not gonna be comfortable to be able to present in my true, authentic self, and they're gonna. Feel, I feel like people can feel when you aren't being genuine and authentic and it just creates for a weird learning experience.

[00:27:00] Again, whether it's classroom learning, whether it's something that's delivered by way of an e-learning experience or a keynote stage in front of thousands of individuals, they can feel it.

[00:27:08] Trisha: I think it can be hard if people don't feel like who they are is somebody that's respected within the organization.

[00:27:18] And I think of that a lot. Especially actually in your situation, as you said, when you went through your training, when you were a very small percentage of, you know, the people within the group.

[00:27:30] So how do you help others, particularly those from underrepresented groups, navigate the balance between authenticity and what the organization expects?

[00:27:42] Kristal: That's a really good question, Trisha. I think one of the ways that I tend to do it is to helping tend to help people rewrite the, a common question, which is, how do I fit in?

[00:27:53] Trisha: Yeah.

[00:27:54] Kristal: Right. And I think when we go into spaces, especially spaces that tend to be pretty foreign to us from a cultural perspective, we're too focused on asking that one question, how do I fit in?

[00:28:04] Instead of asking questions like, how do I stay grounded while I navigate this system? That probably was not built for me in mine.

[00:28:12] Right. And so I think if you ask that question, you're gonna get a better answer as opposed to trying to fit in. I think our brain automatically is designed to protect us. And so depending on what it is that we're trying to fit into, if we have a previous association to that culture or that environment that didn't serve us well, we're automatically in a heightened alert of how we're gonna navigate that space.

[00:28:38] And so I may go into a space feeling extremely guarded. Or unsecure or feel like I gotta operate with a sense of high context dependency. I need to know what's going on here. Gimme context. Gimme context. Instead of saying, you know what, it doesn't matter what the environment is. I understand that I may be up against opposition.

[00:28:56] Or I may be up against community either way. How am I gonna show up? How am I gonna remain grounded in who I am? How am I gonna make sure that I can leverage mutual respect? How can I create win-win situations for me and for the other individuals that I'm gonna be engaging with within this cultural context?

[00:29:14] That's gonna require you to do some internal work, right? You gotta know who you are.

[00:29:18] Trisha: Yeah, absolutely. It is gonna do some work. It's, and it's gonna need your metacognition, your CQ strategy. You're gonna have to be aware of self aware of others, aware of environment, and just recognize how you're showing up and what is happening within you. Yeah.

[00:29:34] Kristal: I think it's kind of twofold. I think you're spot on with the CQ strategy. I think that piece can be twofold. The internal work is knowing who you are knowing and understanding your boundaries and your worth. Because there, let's face it, there could be some situations that we know we're not set up to win and succeed in.

[00:29:52] Right? But what are the boundaries? Like, I tend to say no to places that I feel like. I know for a fact they weren't designed for me, so I'm not gonna put myself in a situation and stretch both myself as well as others in that environment when I know that's not for me. It serves me no value, no worth.

[00:30:11] There's no purpose for me being in that particular environment, but in other spaces where I know my voice could can have major impact, significant impact can definitely add value. It's really about knowing who I am. Knowing my boundaries, understanding my worth. And then if I pair that with some external strategies, like, choosing the moments and when I'm gonna show up, being able to manage my voice appropriately partnering and cultivating with some of my allies.

[00:30:40] I used to do that often. So growing up in corporate America. Leaning into this whole concept, for example, that happens a lot where as a woman leader, your thoughts or your ideas may be stolen by your male counterparts, right? How do you navigate that space, which could be very tricky. I used to have this concept.

[00:31:03] That after one too many times when I had an idea stolen from a male counterpart, I go into these spaces with allies and my thought process would be, Hey, I'm gonna bring up this idea and then I need you to back it up. So I'll bring it up. You back it up, right? And we've already had a conversation offline about the idea, how it can work, how it can benefit the organization, how it can benefit the teams.

[00:31:28] But if we aren't careful. It's, and just showing up in those spaces that we know are not designed for us, then you run a risk of how am I gonna manage this on my own? But if I talk this through with someone who I know is going to be helpful, who's gonna serve as my ally? I get to bring up the idea, and then they can jump in and say, oh, yeah, Kristal, that's a great idea, and here's why.

[00:31:51] Right? They get to leverage their voice. They get to leverage their influence in this space, and it just makes it, it's a, in my opinion, a brilliant way to not shrink, but to be a little bit more comfortable with how you show up, especially when there's integrity on the line.

[00:32:07] Trisha: You've spoken about Brave spaces, which is a concept I love. How do you create those in practice? Is that part of this allyship? But you know, it might be in a training environment or you know, in situations where people might feel there are risks. Tell us more about the Brave Spaces concept.

[00:32:27] Kristal: Absolutely. So I, I've had to, I've had to kind of create my own brave spaces in a sense where I don't. I don't assume that every space is brave. We hear the concept of, Hey, here's a safe space for you to be able to share out. But not every space is brave. There's a difference, right? I may be safe to be able to share certain things but there are certain things that may not necessarily be a secret, but it's sacred, right?

[00:32:50] So it, it's not that I don't care if anyone happens to know about this particular thing associated with me, but. It is very sacred to me, and I hold that dear to my heart. And so I believe that brave spaces are built, they're not assumed, and they have to be built with great intention, right? And so for me it's about when I am facilitating the training, for example, and I'm going over my housekeeping rules I actually do say that this is a safe and a brave space.

[00:33:17] Okay.

[00:33:18] And the intent behind, including the brave portion of that concept is that it's a space for growth and not perfection. And I tend to try to normalize discomfort as often as I can to get people comfortable and oftentimes, Trisha, that takes me being the one to step out and share information for me.

[00:33:38] About me, you know, that people may not assume like, oh my God, I never would've thought that just by knowing her. Like, like one example that I shared, this is actually kind of funny, is I tend to be in a lot of executive circles with a lot of professional, high profile individuals, and when I tell them that in a former life I was a hip hop artist, it almost takes people back.

[00:34:01] Like, oh. So then I started asking the question, well, why do they have that type of. Assumption or that type of reaction I should say. And it is based merely off of their assumptions, it's based off their assumptions of what they know and what they think about hip hop. Right? I have some individuals who I never would've thought who have like a very healthy, loving relationship with hip hop, and I would've never known that unless I had brought it up.

[00:34:25] And then I have others who I meet that they have a perception of hip hop. Like they may think about the language that's being used and how it could be. Offensive to certain cultures from a cultural perspective, but in that case, it could be absolutely a way that people share harmony.

[00:34:43] It shares how they tend to engage and communicate with people.

[00:34:47] So I think that's really important. But I do think there is a, there's a blend with how we create those safe spaces and in order to do that, for me, the exchange is if I share vulnerability, I hope to get vulnerability in exchange.

[00:35:03] If I create a space for you to be able to share something that's pretty personal and intimate with you. Please know that not only am I not gonna share it out in the context of this training experience, but I wanna respect that as being very sacred for you as an individual, and I wanna respect that.

[00:35:20] Trisha: I'm thinking about how Dave created that. Listeners, I'm speaking about Dr. David Livermore with our CQ fellows. 'cause it feels like CQ Fellows was both a safe and a definitely a brave space.

[00:35:33] We were, encouraged, pushed to grow, to develop, to get out there and do things.

[00:35:40] Kristal: For sure.

[00:35:40] Trisha: Yeah.

[00:35:41] so, Kristal, I'm wondering what advice you would give someone who's hoping to follow in your footsteps.

[00:35:48] Kristal: For me, my goal at this stage in my life, Trisha, is about legacy.

[00:35:53] You know, I've had a lot of seeds planted in me to get me to where I am. I've had a. An amazing yet very diverse career. I know I've been able to have an impact on my circles of influence. And so my goal now is to help pay that forward.

[00:36:08] And so anytime I'm in front of an audience and I have an opportunity to speak through words, through training, through coaching, or just general conversation. My goal is to sow seeds where people can actually grow in places that I may not ever see. And so I'm hoping that people feel, you know, invincible when they realize just how essential they are.

[00:36:26] And if I can help cultivate some of that in individually individual people, and with every moment I'm gonna do that. Personally, my goal is to, I just wanna finish, well, I wanna operate with integrity and tact, and I wanna make sure that the purpose that I'm living is fully lived out and it's sustained.

[00:36:45] Trisha: I love that and I love the thought of sowing seeds that you can't see. Now, maybe someone listening to this is one of those seeds, but maybe you wanna be visible and maybe you would love to connect with Dr. Kristal. So. Kristal, if people do wanna connect with you, where is it best to do that? Is it LinkedIn?

[00:37:05] Is it your website? What are the best places for people to to get in touch with you?

[00:37:11] Kristal: I think LinkedIn will be the best. Method to get in contact with me, just shoot me a connection request, follow connection request. I'd be happy to follow up. I tend to always accept them unless something looks extremely weird or off if it looks like spam, you know, I'll probably try to. Stay away from it.

[00:37:28] But I, I'm typically open to friends and connection requests. And then if you'd like to talk about something specific, by all means send me a message via LinkedIn. And from there I can point you to the right resource because again, I work in an executive capacity. I also have my own training facility and a couple of other things that I'm affiliated with.

[00:37:49] And, you know, may, you may have a question about. The work that I do at Sweetwater, or you may have a question about the work that I do within training industry or for Proverbs University, and so I just wanna make sure that I'm pointing you in the right direction as opposed to just giving you a website or an email address if you connect with me on LinkedIn.

[00:38:05] I think that's the easiest way, and we can just kick off our conversation from there.

[00:38:09] Trisha: That is fantastic. And Kristal, as you look at your life and the people you've worked with and your family and community. And as you look at the future, what are you hoping for?

[00:38:21] Kristal: Ooh. Another good question, Trisha. I think most importantly, I would hope for a ripple effect that the seeds that I've sown in people, whether they be in a classroom or in a boardroom, or in a podcast like the Shift I'm hoping that ripple outlive me. I want the next generation to be able to lead with compassion, to be able to have the competence that they need in order to navigate the spaces that they may have to navigate as well as the courage to be able to build something that's even bigger from the seed that I've sewn.

[00:38:52] Trisha: That is wonderful. Thank you so much, Kristal, for sharing your. Knowledge, your wisdom, your experience. We really appreciate it.

[00:39:01] And listeners, if you would like to hear more like this, please make sure that you are following along by pushing that follow button or subscribe button on your podcast app of choice.

[00:39:13] And I look forward to you joining us again next week for the next episode on the shift.

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