0:00:05.4 VB: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vicki Brett.

0:00:09.0 AS: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 VB: Each week we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:25.8 AS: And give them a platform.

0:00:26.6 VB: O enact change in education.

0:00:29.7 AS: And level the playing field. Welcome back, friends.

0:00:34.1 VB: Hi. Hi.

0:00:35.4 AS: We are back with another very important discussion. On this podcast, we really have been trying to focus on strategies that we can do to support students and schools, and really talking about what's going on in our education system right now. Obviously, we're in a place where there's a lot of unknowns and a lot of teachers, administrators, parents are coming to us like other organizations and saying, what are we supposed to do? What can we do? What can't we we do? Because everything's so up in the air. So we're really appreciative to have our guest on today to talk to us about this. So, Rob, thank you for coming on the podcast.

0:01:13.7 RB: Thanks for having me.

0:01:15.3 AS: Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, your background, and what you're doing right now?

0:01:21.0 RB: Absolutely, yes. So my name is Rob. I'm a former math teacher. I taught high school math in the US and abroad. While I was teaching, I realized it was really difficult for me in the way that I had been taught to teach, which was to deliver one lesson at a time to all of my students. It was really difficult for me to meet every learner's needs within my classes. My learners had a variety of needs. Some of them were on grade level and ready to excel. Others had gaps in their learning. Others were chronically absent or late. And I had to figure out, how do I create lessons in a classroom that meets all these learners needs? So what I did, to say very briefly, is I took my instruction. I created short videos that my students could watch in class or at home to get sort of my direct instruction. That meant I spent my class time sitting down with my students, building relationships, supporting them one on one and in small groups. I let students take the time they needed to actually understand the content. And then I made sure that students understood lesson one before they moved to lesson two.

0:02:29.9 RB: And so this style of teaching worked well for me. It worked well for my colleagues. About seven years ago, a colleague and I founded a nonprofit called the Modern Classrooms Project. And today we've trained about 80,000 teachers all over the world helping them take this approach and use it in their own classrooms. Helping them figure out how do I, as a teacher make learning really accessible through technology? But how do I keep my classroom a place that feels really human, where I'm focused on interacting closely with every learner, where I can provide each learner the level of challenge and support they need and make sure that each of my learners actually achieves mastery. So that's my work now. And it's a privilege to work in support of learners and educators all over the world.

0:03:17.7 VB: Yeah. And I think what attracted us is the going back to basics. Right? You were even creating videos pre-pandemic. And so now that technology is more, not that it wasn't always around, but I feel like it may be more accessible or in a weird way, more culturally accepted to provide, like you were saying, that one-to-one instruction to some of the kiddos that might have been hungry when they were in class or like you said, showing up late or had whatever else on their mind. It's just this basic sense of connection and to a certain extent, kind of equity that you were, and inclusion that you were trying to bring into your classroom. And then in the way that you were able to want to spread it. Right? You weren't gatekeeping this information. And a lot of teachers in particular, whether in our line of work, during IEP meetings or outside of it, through our nonprofit, through this podcast, we always get, but I don't know what to do. I don't have support. What can I do? And that's why even with your TEDx talk, it really was enlightening to kind of hear your personal story.

0:04:34.8 VB: And I know math is different from science and it's different from history, but the basic tenets work. It's finding that connection and finding how you're able to provide the curriculum in a way that's accessible to a variety of kiddos. Because, as we know, I mean, every child learns differently, not just the ones with learning challenges or difficulties. Is that something, is that a concern when people kind of reach out to you through the Modern Classrooms Project that, how is this able to reach across multiple levels that children have in my classroom? Is that a main concern?

0:05:15.3 RB: Yeah, that's a concern that everyone has because I'm a parent also. And like, when my kid walks into school, I want instruction that meets their needs. And so when we are training teachers to use a different model, there's sometimes skepticism or concern, and rightfully so. Parents and administrators should be paying really close attention to what's happening in schools to make sure it's in their students best interests. I think, why do kids go to school? It's to learn, to be with their classmates and their teachers, develop relationships and learn. And why do people become teachers? Because they want to develop those relationships and help every learner succeed. And if you think about the way that our education system has evolved, this idea that all students who happen to have the same age are going to sit through the same lesson every day and learn the same things.

0:06:08.3 VB: Right.

0:06:08.9 RB: Maybe it's kind of efficient from an organizational perspective, but it doesn't match at all with what we know from research and personal experience about learning, which is that every learner is different. So what Modern Classrooms does, what I did as a teacher who struggled enormously just to make it through the day was think about how could I deliver instruction in a different way that would allow me to treat individual learners as individuals with different needs? And that's what Modern Classrooms Project does today. And it works with math teachers, science teachers elementary teachers, university professors, just trying to help people think in your context with your students, what do your students need? And how can you change the way your classroom operates so that instead of spending your time trying to control behavior and deliver a lesson that's too hard for some kids, too easy for others, and inaccessible to kids who are absent, how do you actually get to know your students, sit down with them, connect with them, and help every student succeed?

0:07:14.2 AS: Yeah, and that's, I mean, it's always been important, but it's even more important now, I think, when we're facing kind of an uphill battle on... I mean, this idea that we should have this one-size-fits-all approach to education. And everything you're talking about is essentially making sure that we are including all students and giving all students the opportunity to learn and grow and fulfill the purpose that they're there for, right? To become purposeful members of society that contribute and that can be independent. And yet we are facing a time right now where there is a big disconnect of people who feel that we should not be including everybody, that everyone shouldn't be given the same opportunities, and where do we go from here? And what I love about your project and what you do is that you break it down in a way that you're not sitting there saying, we need to do X, Y and Z. And it took so much. I think what you are able to share to teachers is there's a lot of little things that you can do to make sure that we're incorporating all students, which may be the way that we get it in when we're dealing with the federal government who says, we don't care about inclusivity anymore?

0:08:34.6 RB: Yeah. I mean, for me, I started this as a teacher. And what that meant as a teacher is I walked into my classroom every day and I had the students who were in front of me, and my job was to meet every one of their needs, help make sure that every one of them was appropriately challenged and appropriately supported every single day to the best of my ability. And so Modern Classrooms Project is about giving teachers like I was, like my co-founder was, simple steps that you can take tomorrow to create a classroom that helps every student succeed. And I read the news and I pay attention to what's happening, but when you're a teacher in the classroom, that's not what matters. What matters is students in front of you in the chairs. How are you going to help every one of them succeed, no matter what their... No matter who they are, where they come from, what talents they bring and what challenges they bring. And I think what teachers, I think there needs to be systemic reform of how we think about education. And I also think teachers who come to class every day and face rooms full of young people need strategies that actually work to keep all of those young people engaged, challenged, and supported.

0:09:50.0 VB: I think that's a great point, because oftentimes we say it's this 1950s mentality of reading, writing and arithmetic, and this is just how the way we've done it. And I get it. If that's all you ever know and experienced yourself, well, I got by. I didn't need extra accommodations. I didn't need time. And and this, like, it's like, you need to pause that. And it's like, what is the issue that's in front of you? The issue in front of you are disengaged kids or kids that are extremely anxious or depressed or whatever. And being able to, like I said, kind of go back to that basic kind of human connection of like, okay, you're gonna be consuming this in a different way than me. I don't necessarily have to know or have experienced things the same way you have, but I'm in a position that I can say, okay, let's try these different ways. Amanda and I are always so shocked when we get to an IEP meeting, especially with our high schoolers, and maybe the kiddo has ADHD or something like that. And the teachers just, like, automatically label the child as lazy or they're just, like, not motivated.

0:11:05.2 VB: It's just like and we're like, okay, well, what accommodation? How are you implementing their accommodations in the classroom? And it's like, oh, well, we don't. Or that's not fair to my other students. And for us to have to stand there and explain to a teacher, I actually don't care what you think. These are the accommodations that have worked for this child. If you're saying they don't work, by all means, give us different accommodations for your specific class and we'll write it in the IEP. But more often than not, it's not that. It's just having to try to change this adult's perspective or label of this child. And what I like about the solution that you present is that it can, it just works overall. And it just blows our mind that, like, how are we not just enveloping you and lifting this into all classrooms? It's a shame that it's not standard for every teacher to be introduced. Do you find that once you speak to teachers or administrators, they're like, where has this been all my life? Or have they always thought, oh, I wanted to do this, I just didn't know how?

0:12:14.0 RB: Yeah. I think a lot of the ideas that we are sharing have been around for a while, and I think that that reaction is very common. It sounds really nice. Individualized education, it sounds really nice. How do I do it? And I have sympathy for that teacher who's in the IEP meeting thinking, well, how can I possibly provide individualized instruction while I also have to teach the same lesson to all my students at the same time? That's really hard. And what we're trying to show the teacher is, hey, there's actually a way where if you stop giving every student the same lesson at the same time and make your class a little bit more flexible, a little more student centered, there's a way that you can actually provide individualized supports to everyone, and that will give you the freedom and flexibility to follow what's in the IEP, which is essential for the student who has the IEP. And it will also give you the freedom and flexibility to sit down and get to know other students too, and provide what they need. And so I think teachers feel like, wow, this sounds great, but how do I do it? And so that's the gap that Modern Classrooms is trying to fail to say, well, look, here's how I did it, and this set of practices worked for me.

0:13:30.6 RB: And here's how a middle school English teacher in California does it, and here's how a teacher in Zambia is doing it. And we have a lot of teachers all over the world who are doing this in different ways. Their own unique style, their own unique sort of accommodations to meet their students and their community. But the basic approach is similar of let me get down from the front of the room, let me make my instruction accessible, let students move at their own pace and ensure that they're really getting it. And I think once teachers see that picture and see the path towards it, they're excited. They feel like, wow, I actually can teach in a way where I can meet every learner's needs.

0:14:10.9 VB: I always find that it's so surprising when a teacher is not willing to be flexible. I don't know if it's fear. I don't know if it's like you said, maybe I'm just catching them in a moment of, like, how am I going to do this? This is impossible, right? But I like being able to just kind of turn it on its head just slightly, right? And using, hey if you're able to be flexible, we can make this work. I was just talking to this client yesterday about how oftentimes for our kiddos with intellectual disability in high school, they'll want to take, like, an art class. And I have come across beautiful, smart art teachers that are just able to not only accommodate on the spot for that child, right? Maybe because they have a passion for art and are just seeing the project in front of them in multiple ways. Which is hard. You can't really teach that. But we've also seen teachers who are either tired, overworked, exhausted, and they just, maybe they're not inspired anymore. And they are, it seems, unwilling.

0:15:22.2 VB: And maybe it's because they just don't know, but unwilling to even accommodate an art class. And so I oftentimes, the parent and I are trying to give ideas. And more often than not, my parents are not art teachers. And they're just thinking, okay, well, my kid likes this. Can we do this? And more often than not, the teacher then is amenable, but then for the next project, unless they are in communication with the parent or another, maybe the special education teacher. Or maybe we try to get dome districts have inclusion specialists, not all of them, but that's why Amanda and I actually have IEP meetings so often, is because we're trying to help this one teacher. And being able to have a resource that's outside of like a Pinterest, where people would try to get ideas, your teachers would get ideas to be able to have that flexibility within a program through your nonprofit, I think is wonderful. How can people reach out if they want more information? I know your website has great, I mean, lays everything out, but what... Can you please let our listeners know your website and then how they can reach you if they had additional questions or comments, concerns?

0:16:37.0 RB: Of course. Yes. So we're a nonprofit organization. That means that we make all of our content available to the world for free. And you can find that at modernclassrooms.org and like I said, we really want to try to give teachers strategies they can use tomorrow to make sure that every learner is appropriately challenged and supported every day. And there is a comprehensive vision for how a modern classroom works, works how it helps meet every learner's needs. But that vision is accomplished by a series of small sort of simple, practical steps. And that's what we try to lay out at modernclassrooms.org. I think what we're trying to say is if the job of a teacher is take every student who comes in on any given day, make sure that they all learn the exact same thing at the exact same pace with the exact same lesson, that job is impossible. That's too hard. You can't do it. It doesn't fit with learning. What we're trying to provide, and again, for free, as a nonprofit, is the vision for what a more inclusive and equitable classroom looks like. And then the tools and strategies that any teacher can use to get there.

0:17:48.6 VB: I mean, it just, it blows us away. And that's why we were so excited to have you on, so that we could talk about this. And, I mean, that's just right up our alley. Inclusion and equity, providing all students with an equal opportunity.

0:18:04.6 AS: And supporting teachers too, because that's half the battle. Unfortunately, a lot of the red tape we see and we deal with, it's not the teachers. Certainly we get pushback from individual teachers, but on the whole, it's more often that school districts as a whole, there's red tape, don't want to go the extra mile or don't even want to think creatively. It blows our mind. And a lot of people are not trained or they don't learn all this when they're getting their credentials as much as they probably should. And those are, of course, bigger problems that need to be fixed. But at least, we appreciate the solution of how can we be helping teachers and students now that you guys are able to provide?

0:18:46.8 VB: Yes. If you are a teacher or administrator, please, please, please check out Modern Classroom Project. It's really a wonderful resource. And Rob, we were just so grateful to you for your time and just brilliance in being able to create this resource and then to be a nonprofit and to put it out there for people, like you said, to use, learned strategies that you can use tomorrow. Rob, we appreciate you and your time again and listeners, we will talk to you later.

0:19:19.5 AS: Bye.