PJ Ellis (00:38)

So I'm absolutely delighted to have Latoyah and Sam join us today on the Wit and Grit podcast. Good morning.

Sam Dell (00:45)

Morning.

PJ Ellis (00:45)

we've got your CVs, we've got your practice certificates, we've got your bios, but there's no better other person to tell us a little bit more about you than your good self. So Latoyah, can you kick off please? Tell me a little bit more about Latoyah Thompson.

Latoyah Thompson (00:58)

⁓ So I am Latoyah Thompson. I grew up in the Aston area of Birmingham, so not an affluent area in the slightest. I went to a state school. ⁓ My parents didn't go to university. In fact, my parents are immigrants, so my parents were born in Jamaica and came to England in the 60s.

I went to university, non-red brick university, and I did not study law, I studied criminology and criminal justice. So there's a connection with law there, but not a qualified law degree. I didn't get a first, I got a two, one. And then after I graduated, I didn't really do anything in terms of education for 10 years. I just started to work.

So that's a little bit about me.

PJ Ellis (01:49)

Thank you, Sam?

Sam Dell (01:50)

So I think my sort of journey into the profession is just a complete different one to Latoyah's think mine was more more traditional route. I am from Birmingham, I'm from Oldbury and similar sort of things. My parents didn't go to university either, but I'm an only child. They were fortunate enough to send me to a private primary school. I then went to a local grammar school and I sort of fell into law from a very early age. I did A level law.

And knew I wanted, that's what I wanted to do. I enjoyed it the most at school. And yeah, I did my traditional LLB Law degree at Keele University. I guess the only sort of thing during my journey was that I went through clearing, which was a very interesting day, but here we are. And yeah, I know when I did my LPC and Masters at the University of Law in Birmingham and was fortunate enough to receive a training contract at Higgs.

you know, fairly soon after I qualified from, well, finished my LPC. So yeah, that's me.

PJ Ellis (02:42)

takes me back. I'm coming out in hives here talking about training contracts and LPCs and stuff like that. Andy, you're about to say something, mucka.

Andy Dawson (02:50)

Yeah, I've got a little quote, Latoyah that I found about you. I'm to ask you to talk about it. So, you're a role model for so many and have shown us all what's possible when belief meets action. I think Sophie Wardell said that about you. Just tell us a little bit about that story.

Latoyah Thompson (02:55)

Okay.

So I think that probably comes from my journey to qualifying. So as I mentioned earlier, for 10 years after graduating, I didn't do anything with education. So at the age of 31, I actually started the graduate solicitor's apprenticeship. And people often think about apprenticeships as being sort of like from the age of 18 or 16 or things like that.

but you absolutely can do it a little bit later in life as I did. And I had some setbacks when studying for the solicitors qualifying examination. So I actually failed the solicitors qualifying examination one the first time round. But you know, I thought, you know what?

didn't get it this time, definitely get it next time. There's absolutely no way they are going to tell me that I've failed for a second time. And I was so determined and that absolutely shone through, I think. And yeah, I was just absolutely determined. I...

was a more mature student, went back into the classroom after 10 years and didn't do the traditional route sort of LPC training contract, I did it through an apprenticeship. And I think in terms of the sort of role model bit, I feel like people would look at me and think, well, if she can do it, perhaps I can too. And it's never too late to do it.

Andy Dawson (04:32)

was there a specific moment in time you can remember, maybe take us there, that was the turning point when you decided you want to try and qualify as a lawyer.

Latoyah Thompson (04:41)

It was actually Covid. So for me, Covid allowed me to do a lot of thinking and revisiting about what I actually wanted to do. It was a very strange time in life. The world was just very strange. And I sort of thought, I do have a passion for law. I studied law at A level.

⁓ Then I went and did Criminology and Criminal Justice at university. Then I started working for the Ministry of Justice. So I do have the passion there. And I always had this doubt in my mind thinking, maybe I think I want to be a lawyer. And I like the idea of being a lawyer, but maybe I don't actually want to be one. But then during COVID, I was like...

No, actually you do. You're just trying to put yourself off and take yourself down a different path because you think it's out of reach, because you haven't done the LPC and you don't have a law degree and all of those types of things. So during COVID I actually thought, no, I'm going to do this and I know how I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it through the solicitors qualifying examination route.

and it was actually one of the lawyers that I worked with at the Ministry of Justice that came and worked for Higgs and then she brought me into Higgs and I was very vocal at my interview that if I am going to make the move then it's because I want to be a lawyer and I want to train and this is how I would like to do it.

PJ Ellis (06:09)

Wow. I wish I had that sort of conviction when I was a lawyer. I do look at Higgs and just talking to you guys already, and we'll talk about this no doubt later on in the pod, but I sometimes wonder whether it was the firm that I landed in that changed my perspective of law because...

Yeah, maybe we'll talk about that more over a pint and not on the pod anyway. Sam, you mentioned clearings. So there may have been slightly different sort of squiggles along the way, but was there ever a time where you thought you wouldn't make it? And did you ever think of giving this up? correct me if I'm wrong, you were very clear quite early on that you wanted to be a lawyer, right?

Sam Dell (06:45)

Yeah, think there's always setbacks along the way. I think the thing that pulled me through was just that self belief I have in myself, like, you you can do this. kind of the way that you get into the career is often through different stages. know, for me anyway, my traditional route, was my A levels and it was my undergraduate and it was my LPC. And kind of once you get past the next step, you think, well, I've done I've already done the last bit. I can do this. And every time you go, well, you know, I've got the qualifications now and I'm training.

I've got everything I need to be able to do it. I just need to believe that I can and be part of that challenge. I mean, yeah, clearing was, it was a hard day because it was such a shock. And at that moment you're like, what do I do? Like, you're almost stuck. But it's just that.

Andy Dawson (07:23)

you

PJ Ellis (07:26)

So explain

that to me, Sam, quickly. Sorry for talking over you, mate. Was that because you didn't get the grades you needed to go to the university you wanted to?

Sam Dell (07:29)

No problem.

Correct. Yes.

Yes. So think what made it worse for me was I applied to go to the University of Leeds and they actually did like a program where if you fitted in certain categories, you could apply to have a lesser offer, but you had to do an extra like examination. I think that was just specific to that university, which I did complete. So they gave me a reduced offer and I still didn't meet the requirements so that it was even more of a hit. was like, you you've been given this, you've worked so hard.

But unfortunately, you know, I didn't quite get over the line. So it was a real setback. It was quite an emotional day. But in the end, you have to just gather yourself around the people that care about you. And they can motivate you as well. And so yeah, that was probably the biggest setback for me in terms of, I can't do this, can I? mean, what am I going to do now? But yeah, you do just have to just believe in yourself and back yourself and know that it is possible. Like Latoyah said, you can do it. You really can.

And you must believe that because if you don't believe that, then you're really going to struggle. And that's just where it came from for me. It just came from that internal belief.

Andy Dawson (08:35)

It's a, if self belief was a muscle, how would you develop it? Sam, maybe you go first, Latoyah, I'd be interested in you as well. So how, I've got a 17 year old, just about to leave school after his exams this year. And I think self belief is going to be a key skill for the young generations going through school with AI and stuff, which I'm sure we'll touch on a bit later on. So how do we grow that self belief muscle, Sam?

Sam Dell (08:57)

I yeah, I mean, for me, it was always like, I just had this thing inside me where I just kind of wanted to show people I could do something. I wanted to be unique. I wanted to be different. I wanted to, I don't know, kind of be an inspiration to people. That's always where it came from me. And I think, again, the people who might not be that way inclined, I think it is just a general, you know, I want to be successful. I want to do something with my life. I want to make my parents proud. want to, you know,

I want my friends to encourage me to do things. And I think it is all around about surrounding yourself around the right people and actually listening to people. Because as a young lad, you kind of listen to people when they say, I'll go and do this, go and get some work experience, go and, you know, do this, go and listen to this material, whatever. And you kind of think, well, I don't really need to do that. I know what I'm doing. And you do get quite stubborn about it as a young lad. But it's not until you get to this stage where you go, I really wish I would listen to those people.

And it's something that at Higgs anyway, we try and do a lot. We go and speak to students at universities and colleges. And you can see that there, that there's that sort of, well, you know, I don't need to listen to what he has to say because he doesn't know anything or I'm not bothered. But you really have to just trust and believe in the advice of other people. And sometimes it might be that, you you kind of don't look up to them as such. But no, I think you really do have to just

look at the people that inspire you and actually pay attention to what they've done and what the advice they give you and I think you'll fly.

Andy Dawson (10:23)

Latoyah, what kind of motivates you build that self-belief?

Latoyah Thompson (10:26)

⁓ Mine is mindfulness.

not letting the negative thoughts consume me. So I do have a book of affirmations and quite often when I'm feeling a little bit low I'll turn to the book and it's like you are great, you are meant to do this, you will get there and all of those types of things and that really helps me.

I have also been to mindfulness sessions where it's like just free your mind from all the clutter. I believe in having clear spaces, so decluttering the home, having a nice space to just go and relax. But also as well, I'm not

particularly religious, but I do have faith, but I did lean on my faith the most I've ever leant on it to be fair when I was studying for the Solicitors Qualifying Examination. And it just reminded me that, you know, don't block your blessings with the negative thoughts. You can do this and you will do this and your path is already set for you.

and you wouldn't be on this journey and enrolled onto the apprenticeship or anything if it wasn't meant to be.

yeah, that's where my self-belief comes from.

Sam Dell (11:48)

I love that Latoyah, that speaks a lot to me just about that leaning on your faith and that sort of thing. just, yeah, you're meant to be where you are. And I think it naturally works that way, doesn't it? It's that law of attraction sort of thing where if you're interested in something and you really want to pursue something, it doesn't matter what it is, you will naturally just, you know, put more effort into it. You'll listen more to the things, you'll pay attention more to things and you'll get there. It will just kind of work its way down the...

PJ Ellis (11:48)

You know, I-

Latoyah Thompson (11:58)

Yeah.

Sam Dell (12:15)

path for you. I truly believe in that.

PJ Ellis (12:17)

Love that. I think, you know what, Latoyah, this power of affirmations, I think what's even more powerful is that you see the action off the back of that as well. ⁓ I think that goes back to Andy's statement that he found on the old internet about you. The life-changing magic of tidying, Latoyah, have you read that? Have you read it? ⁓

Latoyah Thompson (12:26)

See you

I haven't actually,

PJ Ellis (12:39)

It's Marie Kondo. It actually inspired another book called, I think, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Beep. And it's about the importance and the power of decluttering your life, that clean, tidy space that you said. It's all about rolling up socks and removing anything out of your wardrobe that doesn't bring you joy. I think I probably know the answer to this. It might be a personal one, so bear with me. When you started talking about your journey, Latoyah,

Latoyah Thompson (12:50)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (13:03)

You went straight to your parents from Jamaica in the 60s. Sam, when you were talking about your experience, when you needed to be resilient, you talked about those people around you. Latoyah, who gave you that first shot of confidence? Is there any individuals that come to mind when you think of that?

Latoyah Thompson (13:19)

It is actually my parents because they obviously came to England from Jamaica with nothing and they actually they did struggle to be honest and they did the absolute best that they could for me and my siblings. You know they sent us to a school that was three bus rides away because they wanted to give us the

best experience in school, the opportunities, the spaces that we were put in, the people that we were ⁓ mixing with in terms of our friendship groups and things like that. So they definitely knew what they wanted to do, but they would also...

talk to me and say, we're doing this so that you don't have to. We're working, like my mum would work at the hospital and then she'd go and do a cleaning job at the Aston Villa Ground. And she would always say, I'm doing this so that you don't have to. You have to work twice as hard as your peers because of where you're coming from. You're not coming from the same place that they are.

And there was always those words of encouragement from, was probably like knee high to be honest, like the first day of school, there was that sort of pep talk, you you don't misbehave, you don't do this, you don't do that, you don't follow others, like your journey is different. So yeah, it is definitely my parents and the background and where they've come from.

PJ Ellis (14:48)

i'm sure they're super proud of you now Latoyah. Sam, what about you mate?

Andy Dawson (14:49)

Mmm.

Sam Dell (14:53)

Yeah, I think a similar mindset to Latoyah in that respect that my parents were a massive driver in terms of that motivation for me, but I was also very fortunate to go to a school where I think there were teachers who actually saw something in me. The teacher that taught me A level law, she was a massive inspiration because she joined when I was in year 11 and I was in her English class.

And we got on very well and she actually introduced A-level law to the school. She was an ex-lawyer and it was the year that I'd moved into Six Form. So we already had that relationship and she'd pushed me to actually pursue it further. And I think she saw that potential in me, you know, she'd speak to me and help me a lot with my applications. And I also had a music teacher as well who he was a very different character.

but he was the sort of person where he would come and find me on my lunchtime to say, why are you not at orchestra practice? What are you doing? And at the time, I was just thinking, again, same sort of thing, young lad. I'm like, oh, I'm not bothered here. But now when I think back, I think, well, they were doing this because they saw something in me. They knew there was something there, and that's why they pushed me so hard and always wanted me to get involved and do things to unlock that potential.

So yeah, I think I was very fortunate to have some people that actually saw and believed in me in a lot of respects. And that's what kind of gets you to believe in yourself a lot as well. you surround yourself by enough people or one message just hits you, when it hits you right, you're just like, yeah, maybe I can do this. And I think that's where it comes from.

Andy Dawson (16:23)

I've got a couple of questions for each of you actually. So Latoyah, maybe come to you first. I really loved the way you talked about your parents then and that kind of strong ethic. We had a chap called Ad Davis, ex-gymshark on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. And he also talked about the real work ethic that he learned from his parents doing multiple jobs just like yourself. And like you, he's turned out to be a fine,

child and father now as well. So hats off to you. One of the issues we come up with and let's acknowledge kind of some of the downsides of our city is high levels of youth unemployment. And it's something we desperately need to do something about. And you talked about Aston and some of the challenges around there. What would you like to see the city and us all doing more of?

to help rebalance some of the opportunities, especially for younger kids coming through the system.

Latoyah Thompson (17:17)

I'd like to see the community centres coming back. There were quite a few in the surrounding areas of where I grew up, but they have all closed down now. So the young kids don't actually have anywhere to go or do anything in terms of extracurricular activities.

And yeah, I do think it is about the community that you grow up in, that there's got to be the opportunities there. I I loved going to the library when I was younger. I think every Saturday I'd go and choose a new book. But my local library is no longer open. And so it's things like that, really. So I'd like to see more initiative

so like more money pumped into the communities so that there are opportunities for the young ones in the community.

Andy Dawson (18:05)

Yeah, love it. the mayor, Richard Parker will be on an episode actually. So we'll make sure we drop him a little line with some of your insights as well. Thanks for that. Totally agree by the way. Totally agree. There's just not enough funding to kind of rebalance stuff. Sam, a slightly different topic for you. So as I say, my lad's 17, 15. My niece's nephews are late 20s, early 30s.

Latoyah Thompson (18:19)

No.

Andy Dawson (18:28)

So they've gone through the careers, they've gone through university. Now, my boys often argue with me about AI. Why do I need to learn this, dad? Yeah. What use is it going to be to me? Cause I can just put it into Google or chat GPT. one of the things we were exploring is AI. And someone talked about the impact on the legal sector. So I'm interested in what's your thoughts on AI, how it's going to impact your role.

and certainly people thinking of a career in law in the future.

Sam Dell (18:53)

Yeah, I think it's absolutely massive and it's going to be, think, in pretty much everywhere, isn't it? We're still fascinated by the things we can do now and the sort of pictures and things you can generate just always seem to blow my mind. But in terms of the legal industry, the sort of reputation it has is that it's very archaic and it can't keep up with technology and the way things are. So we're still a bit behind in that respect, but it's something that's really going to transform the industry.

I've been to a lot of talks and seminars about AI and how it fits in with the legal industry. And it's quite inspiring to hear the things that are actually coming down the tracks. But I think the important thing to understand with AI in legal industry is that it's not going to replace lawyers. It's actually going to be used with us. We're going to have to be using it to become more efficient.

everything will be done quicker. It will help document production and things like that. But I think what's so important to not forget is that with what we do, I think that when you're sat in front of someone, whether it is on Teams or whether it is in person, you've got that connection. And I think a lot of people, when they're really struggling and no one wants to have to come to people for help, do they really? There's something human in that respect.

when people are on their knees and they need to come to someone to help them out, I think they'd rather be sat in front of a human being or speaking to a human being than typing into a chat box because you don't get that emotional, that human element to it. And for what I do anyway, most of my job is buying and selling businesses. And even though that might sound fairly robotic, it means a lot to a lot of people. I mean, I've had clients...

in tears when we're selling their business because they're like, I've worked my whole life on this and it's a new chapter for me and it's so emotional. And I think, like we get it, we understand it because there's that human connection and interaction, but you wouldn't get that exactly the same. An AI wouldn't understand how much something means to someone because you can just sense it, you can feel it. So it won't be something where

PJ Ellis (20:48)

Hmm.

Thank

Sam Dell (20:56)

Yeah, again, it's not going to take over the industry. It's not going to replace lawyers. It's not going to stop people from getting into the sector because there's AIs there. Why do we need lawyers? Not at all. It will be used as a tool to actually improve efficiencies, improve client experience and to help people and help us do our job, help clients ultimately. So it's something that we need to kind of look into and actually develop and integrate it definitely a lot more, but it's not

the end of the legal industry. And I think that's probably the same for a lot of industries.

Andy Dawson (21:27)

We should get you a job in PR for the law society, that's for sure.

PJ Ellis (21:31)

When I was a lawyer thinking of my little hub, it was me, trainee, paralegal maybe, secretary. I suspect moving forward, might be, or rather I'd hope there to be another person in that team that's maybe a prompt engineer you know that can help get the best out of AI and stuff like that.

Sam Dell (21:48)

completely agree. mean, speaking to people who work at bigger firms and have got specialist AI tools already in place, they say that part of it now is actually figuring out the prompts and they put them together lists of prompts to put in because they know which work exactly. And that's what's the hardest part about AI is figuring out what it works. Because we had a really interesting seminar at Higgs a few months ago now, about six months ago.

They brought in a lot of people who work exclusively with AI to speak to our clients, explain what it is, how it works at different types. And I knew nothing about it, so I found it really interesting. And one of the points they said was that the way AI works is it only works based on the data that's put into it. And that's the way it learns. So it only learns by people actually using it. So again, it's all part of the prompt. That's what people are focusing on now. It's all about knowing the code, essentially.

Andy Dawson (22:40)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (22:40)

We had, oh sorry andy, we had a guest, Tracy Westall, that said, we've got to treat AI as our children. We've got to nurture it as you were bringing up your child and giving them all the fundamentals that we've spoken about already. Higgs are very open with the people first law firm.

Andy Dawson (22:42)

Nah, go on mate.

PJ Ellis (22:58)

the people I've met that work at Higgs and the communications I see both online and face to face, I just sense that. I really do. I just get a really nice feel about it. And talking to you both already, i can see it. Latoyah, how...and back to you after Sam, how do businesses like Higgs open the doors for more young people? What does that look like? Cause you've gone through that process?

Latoyah Thompson (23:21)

well they promote that we believe in growing talent within and we go out to local schools, ⁓ colleges, we do road shows and we really do ⁓ get the name out there in that Higgs is about supporting its people.

invests in its people and we're very open about that. I went to a road show, I think it was about two months ago, and there were other law firms there and they were talking about their apprenticeships and how they recruit for them and we were the only law firm there that said we don't

recruit externally for our apprenticeships. We would rather have you in sort of either doing a legal assistant role or a paralegal role or even an office assistant role so that you can see whether law is for you, whether you actually like it.

And then once you're in and you've got your foot in the door and you've got a bit of experience and you're about in working in a law firm and finding out what it is to work in a law firm, then you can express an interest to train, whether that's through a CILEX route or an apprenticeship route or previously the LPC. I know that there needs a cut off for that, isn't there? The LPC.

But we were very vocal in saying we prefer to have our people in first and then we invest in you and we nurture you and we support you to grow.

PJ Ellis (24:59)

Thank you. And how's your experience been around that, Sam?

Sam Dell (25:03)

Yeah, think Latoyah's touched on pretty much all of the points that I was thinking of. The only thing worth to mention is when we go out and go to the universities and show off Higgs to a lot of people, I think a lot of things that people don't really always think about is that it's not just lawyers at work at a law firm. There's a massive support team that sits behind it. There's finance teams.

know, office assistants, there's reception teams, client services teams, there's just general support teams. There's so many people that work in the background that aren't client facing that, if anything, are the building blocks of the firm and they keep it running. And those are the opportunities as well that Higgs also offers to everyone. And when we give out our brochures and give talks to people, it's those sort of things that they always go, wow, like I didn't think about that. I remember

doing a talk at a college a couple of years ago and it's so fascinating speaking to, you know, 15, 16 year olds or whatever, asking them what, tell me what a law firm looks like and they've got, you know, the stereotypical, everyone's really scary, it's full of blokes in suits. That's the reputation that firms have to a lot of young people and it's, I think part of what Latoyah and I do when we go out and do these talks is to break down those barriers and

kind of explain to people it's not like that at all we're human beings, there's so many different things to a law firm than what that is. So Higgs is really good at actually approaching people and getting them to see that it's different to what it's portrayed and what the stigma is. And yeah, that opens up the opportunity for young people because then it starts to get them thinking, okay, well, maybe it isn't like what I thought and then maybe I would like to give it a go.

So that's the key for me, I think.

Andy Dawson (26:44)

If you ask my young lads about law, just think Harvey Specter from Suits. Yeah. lot of dramatize, isn't it? So quick question for both of you. Start with you, Latoyah, first, please. so if we think about, obviously AI might help with some of the admin and some of the technical side, but I'm always fascinated because of what we do here at Curium. We do a lot of leadership stuff. So what are the future skills that you think are going to be important to keep you performing and excelling as a...

Sam Dell (26:48)

Literally, yeah.

Andy Dawson (27:12)

as individuals and as a firm in the next kinda two to three years.

Latoyah Thompson (27:17)

⁓ future skills. I'm thinking now about how I can develop myself.

definitely empathy. And particularly if you're working in maybe a personal injury, clinical negligence, those private client type roles.

the people skills and the like communication skills and you know working within a team and all of those types of things really and yeah

Andy Dawson (27:41)

So Sam, what would you build on that around the kinda future skills?

Sam Dell (27:46)

I what Latoyah is saying about those people skills, those communication skills, is bang on. I didn't actually think about this a lot. I thought that the way that law firms succeed is just general reputation and word of mouth people walking in or online presence. no, it's actually

the relationships you have with clients and with business partners and with contacts, it's massive. Most of the work that our team gets is predominantly from referrals and from people you know in the market and just from people saying, sold my business and they're down the pub with their mates and they're one of their mates has got a business. And you went, you've got to check these guys out in Brierley Hill. They were brilliant for me. And it's all about that. I think, yeah, those soft skills,

You need to develop your confidence, ability understand what matters most to a client, what's the client trying to achieve, what's their end goal, what are their concerns, and actually understanding the way that they think and the way that, for example, in my industry, the way that business works. If you can understand the clients and actually get to know them very well, it helps you massively.

if you're having a difficult conversation with a client, if you've got that relationship with them, it's huge because it makes that so easy. So I think it's that, yeah, those communication skills to improve that client relationship will just help you massively. And that's the thing that I think will always be, obviously, on the lawyer's minds, but it's, think, the way we're going now that law firms are becoming so much more competitive, it is generally about who really cares and who makes you feel

that they care about you and that they want you and they want to help you and that sort of thing. So it's that relationship which is really key.

PJ Ellis (29:29)

love that. I suppose I'd like to think it's testament to these more modern thinking about how they build teams within companies. When I was looking at law firms, it was very much like, did you go to a Redbrick University? Have you got a first? Straight A's. Some of those of which I did get, but it didn't work out for me. Whereas you started your conversations, both of you saying, I didn't get a first. I mean, you got a two, one, Latoyah is pretty good. I didn't get my straight A's in my A-levels, Sam.

And what an injustice it would have been if Higgs would have missed out on people like you if they filtered your CVs through grades alone. for me, that is so lovely to see because what brilliant people you guys are and what an asset you will be for that firm. And one of them assets will be is that I find it absolutely remarkable to be talking to you two today who are both confident, resilient, engaging.

All of those soft skills that I think are so important. And you talk about those road shows. So you're out there pushing the firm at this sort of early stage in your career, networking. How important is it to network? All right. That's the first part of the question, Latoyah I'll come to you first. So how important is it to network? And what would you say to those people that fear networking so much?

Latoyah Thompson (30:47)

It is really important to network ⁓ because it's important to grow your network and have ⁓ connections outside of the firm that you're working in. And I would also say that, you know, when you're out there networking and you're building these connections, they can be

to your benefit, like really to your benefit. And so I always tell people to seek out allies because there are people out there that will champion you. But you won't be able to do that unless you are actually out there networking. An example of that that I can give is when I started at Higgs in 2021, I...

attended the Birmingham Black Lawyers Ball on my own for the first time and just thought you know what I'm just I'm just going to go just going to go and see how it is and I had an absolutely fantastic time and I built so many connections and I am now a member of ⁓ the Birmingham Black Lawyers Association and I have mentors through that and people that

Andy Dawson (31:41)

doing it.

Latoyah Thompson (31:55)

champion me and are in my corner and there to support me outside of the firm.

Anyone that is a bit fearful of doing it, would just say, just do it because once you're there, you're there and people will talk to you because quite often they can sense that you might be a little bit uncomfortable in the room ⁓ and everybody is very friendly and at least one person will talk to you and then that's one connection that you've made and you never really know what will come from those connections but great things can come from them.

PJ Ellis (32:27)

I love that. What's your take on that, Sam?

Sam Dell (32:29)

First of all, I'm very thankful you asked the question because I absolutely love networking and it's something that I never thought I would. I mean, I could spend a whole other podcast talking about the benefits of networking. I love it that much. Often my supervisor says to me, you're at another one, are you going to bring me something back this time? Like some sort of croissant from the breakfast or whatever. yeah, wholeheartedly, it's so important and I find it a lot of fun. ⁓

It's always quite refreshing to meet and speak to new people who have come from different experiences, different backgrounds. And I'm actually interested to learn how they got into it, why they got into it, and the sort of things that inspire them to carry on. It's always really interesting to see and actually hear people talk about their passions because I just find it so inspiring. So yeah, it's really important, again, from a perspective of, think not only your own professional development,

but the soft skills as well. I often think that the benefits of networking is you can go, if you can have the confidence to go and speak to a lot of people who, know, the whole point of networking is that everyone's there to meet new people. So you can almost use it as a bit of a test, a bit of a mock exam for when you're sat in front of a client, because you go to a networking event and the whole reason why people are there is to speak and get to know you. But when you're in front of a client, you need to be able to have, as you've just said, the confidence

the resilience, you need to be engaged. And those are things you learn while you're networking, because you've almost got like a safe space because everyone's there for that reason. But if you're a client, you need to, you know, if they've come to you and, you know, they're on their knees, you need to be able to be strong for them and you have to be able to get on with them. So I like to use networking in that respect because it prepares you for those times you have the clients. And yeah, I just find it a lot of fun.

just to go out and meet new people and get to speak to them about all the different things that they're getting up to. I just absolutely love it. I can't speak about it highly enough. to the people who find it difficult, i think... Yeah, there's two things I'd say on that. The first one is a little tip. Try and find someone who will go with you, take a friend. When I started out, I was quite scared about it because...

you you're representing your firm or your workplace or whatever, and even yourself. Having someone there you can go with, of support you, you can fall back to, or they can introduce you to people, it's brilliant. And you kind of feel safe then, because you've got someone, you're not going into a room on your own. I mean, I'm at a point now where I can, and Latoyah can, because we've done it, and it's so beneficial. And I think the other thing with networking is...

Yeah, just I think you do just have to just kind of brave it and just do it and understand that again, everyone is there to meet you and other people. That's the point of it. So don't be scared to approach people because that they're all there just to just to, you know, meet you and speak about you. So it's nothing to be scared about at all. Just be yourself.

Andy Dawson (35:17)

I, um, I love both your answers. I don't think I've smiled so much through a podcast for a while, PJ. Um, it's great. It is just so good because, um, to hear you both your enthusiasm and your stories. And I guess the last, last thought for, well, two thoughts. One, PJ, if this is what the next generation is coming through, we're both screwed, mate. Okay. Um, well, the thought for me is I've worked across a lot of different sectors and industries.

Sam Dell (35:22)

You

Andy Dawson (35:41)

People don't like change. Law firms in particular are known to struggle with change. What's the change journey like for you and your firm? Latoyah, how are you with change?

Latoyah Thompson (35:52)

I embrace change and I think change is a good thing. I think since I have been with Higgs, I've seen a lot of change within Higgs and I've only been here for four years, but it's all been really good change and lots of positive things have come from that change. when I talk to people that particularly

don't like change, I always ask the question of, well, why is it like this or why are you doing this? And if the answer is because we've always done it like this or because it's always been like that, I'm like, well, then it needs to be changed. Because if you can't really tell me the why, then why are we doing it like this or why is it like that?

So I am a champion of change because I feel like you can get left behind if you don't bring about change and it's not about being left behind, it's about moving forward and being bigger and being better and improving. There's always room for improvement, I believe.

Sam Dell (36:58)

I think Latoyah's just absolutely hit the nail on the head there. It's all about development, isn't it? Change, I think all change is positive because it's challenging something. It's that moving forward, that progression, and I think that's vital. And as I say, you will get left in the past if you were just stuck in your same ways. There's nothing wrong with tradition. I think that's slightly different, but...

Yeah, it's that development. mean, it's quite contradictory coming from me because I'm a creature of comfort. Absolutely. I I sit in the same space every day if I can in the same desk. yeah, throughout my studies, all I did was company and business law because I was afraid to wander into a different area. I think in terms of a business as a whole, you have to be able to embrace that and

Yeah, look to develop and challenge what you've done previously because there's always different and better ways to do things, there's always more efficient things that you can be doing. And there's everyone you can learn from. That's what's so good about diversity inclusion is that there are so many different opportunities and opinions and people from different backgrounds or whatever. Everyone approaches things in so many different ways. And that's the benefit to those schemes is that

you then look at it and go, OK, well, we need to think about the way we're doing something here and change it for the better. So yeah, massive. It's really important.

Andy Dawson (38:16)

And then I'll hand over to you to wrap up PJ. There's not many law firms who we would contact, who would unleash two fine young professionals like yourselves on this podcast, that's for sure. So that's a big, big high five to the culture that you've got, that business that you're in.

PJ Ellis (38:30)

And on that note, we must leave you to go and do some more billable hours. I'll tell you though, just to echo that piece around Andy talking about how much we've smiled during this, I think for me, it's given me real confidence that my kids are going to be all right. It really has.

Latoyah Thompson (38:33)

You

Andy Dawson (38:34)

Ha! Kaching!

PJ Ellis (38:48)

And these are the takeaways. There'll be plenty more once I digest this, but I always write them little timestamps in the conversation just to remind us what we've gone through today. Mindfulness, affirmations, belief into action, gather around the people that care about you. The power of the parents, pep talk, bring back the community centres They did all right for Ant and Dec, didn't they, Byker Grove? Growing talent within. Soft skills probably shouldn't be called that because they're quite difficult.

If you can't tell me why, why? How cool is that? Right? Seek out our allies that will champion you the importance of mentoring and use networking as a mock exam. Just do it. Latoyah, Sam, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us on wit and Grit. Off you go into the world of work and enjoy.

Andy Dawson (39:16)

Yes.

Look out.

Latoyah Thompson (39:31)

Thank

Sam Dell (39:36)

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Latoyah Thompson (39:37)

Yeah, thank you so much.