PART TWO

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 9 of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Debbie: And what I found is that I wasn't able to say, Oh yes, you're stressed. Of course.

[00:00:14] No wonder. You know, how might you take care of yourself? What do you need? Maybe this is too stressful. And, and having a compassionate view toward myself. Instead, I kind of felt like, Oh, I'm not keeping up. I need to get all this stuff done so that I'm get to a better place. But I almost felt like the stress was making me exacerbate my own burnout because I couldn't understand what was happening.

[00:00:42] So I had lost perspective a little bit and I was caught in that internal struggle with myself. Like, Oh, you know, what's wrong with you? You need to get better at this. Like, you should be able to handle this and, and so on. And I think that's pretty common. What I see with burnout is that people, they're struggling inside and it's driven by stress.

[00:01:01] It actually makes perfect sense to be feeling that way. It's just that we get caught in that struggle and then that makes the situation worse.

[00:01:09] Ross: Today, I continue my chat with Dr. Debbie Sorenson, clinical psychologist, podcast host, and author. And we're going to focus in on her book, Act for Burnout. The ingredients Debbie brings to people's soup are her reflections on the writing process, including the demons that showed up and the level of self disclosure.

[00:01:30] You'll also hear her refreshingly honest approach to mindfulness, And she introduces us to a term I hadn't come across before, care washing. For those of you who are new to People's Soup, welcome!

[00:01:52] It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For [00:02:00] those of you who are regular Pea Soupers, thanks so much for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community.

[00:02:06] A quick scoot over to the news desk? And, I've got a new website, and you can check it out at rossmackintosh. co. uk. I was delighted to work with Russell at A Modern Remedy, and would love to know what you think. it's a really useful way of presenting what I do. you can also sign up to my newsletter and there's a host of useful resources too.

[00:02:30] So let's crack on. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Dr. Debbie Sorenson.

[00:02:43] Debbie, I want to move on to your book, Act for Burnout,

[00:02:47] and I want to start with my review,

[00:02:49] if I may. And PCPers, as ever, Debbie hasn't heard this review yet, so this will be, this will be the first time. So, here we go. This book is the definitive guide to burnout. It's a manual for the modern workplace and is a must read for leaders, managers, team members, and freelancers. Debbie speaks to the reader in a friendly, open, human, and practical way. I felt she was glimpsing into my mind, normalizing what I experience and how I behave. There was so much to love about this book, Debbie. I love the chapter on burnout cycles, because I was identifying with these different types, these different cycles we can go through. And I particularly recognized the people pleaser, the avoider, the The over analyzer in my behavior at times. And it was so useful to have those, those labels for that.

[00:03:45] Because it really spoke to me. I think, oh goodness me. This time reading your book to pause and reflect was really powerful for me.

[00:03:55] Debbie: oh Thank you

[00:03:57] Ross: got a little bit more Debbie. [00:04:00] Debbie takes us from understanding what burnout is and isn't and then applies contextual behavioral science to help us develop new perspectives and understanding. Debbie is by our side as we start to make changes and build new habits, anticipating the obstacles along the way. Thank you Debbie for being our guide. Over the last three months your book has been by my side in forming my own working life and my work with individuals and organizations too.

[00:04:27] Debbie: Oh I really appreciate that. Thank you so much Ross What a nice review. I'm very touched Well,

[00:04:37] Ross: about six months ago and it was in my pile. knew I wanted you on the show and I was thinking I'm gonna get to that next and then I didn't and then once I started reading it I was like oh Macintosh. Why did you not pick this one up sooner?

[00:04:51] Because some of the organizations and individuals I'm working with is just so helpful to help me explain things to them and also recommend that they

[00:05:00] read it as well. So thank you for writing it.

[00:05:04] Debbie: thank you for reading it I know the pile I have one

[00:05:09] and

[00:05:10] Ross: I think I've seen a post on this behind your bedroom

[00:05:13] Debbie: I kept, I did, I did a post on my, a pile of my to be read books and it's ridiculous. but yes, there are so many books out there. So I really appreciate you taking the time to read mine and I'm glad you found it helpful in that way. That was my hope.

[00:05:27] Ross: Well, it certainly resonated with me and with some people I've already recommended it to.

[00:05:33] But tell us, tell us why you felt compelled to write this, please.

[00:05:37] Debbie: So that's a good question because I know what it takes to write a book at this point. Now I really know because I had co authored the first book with Diana. I just know that it's a lot of time. You have to face a lot of your inner demons to sit down and write because they all show up. You'll feel like you have nothing to say.

[00:05:55] Everything you write is boring and awful. and so I, was On [00:06:00] the fence about it, and I have a lot of ideas, but I think sometimes putting them into fruition is, you know, I get kind of bored or I, you know, the tedium of doing the work sometimes gets me down. but what I realized is that I had a unique perspective on burnout at that point.

[00:06:18] I had had my own burnout experience. I had been working on burnout and learning about it for a long time. And I think that the idea of connecting. Burnout with acceptance and commitment therapy and contextual behavioral theory was something that I was really excited about and I think I had a perspective that I wanted to share with the world and so for better or worse, I decided it was worth the blood, sweat and tears to write it in order to be able to share that and So, and actually I was approached by my publisher about writing it because at that point I was doing some trainings on Act for Burnout and I had some things that I had put on my website and so they were looking for someone specifically to write that book and found me and so that was lucky but I had already had the thought and had actually kind of floated the idea of an Act for Burnout book but I wasn't really sure.

[00:07:18] And then I just decided, okay, I really want to get this point of view out there. And so I'm going to do it. And you know, the rest is history and I, my family had this ongoing joke about how my burnout book was burning us out because on top of my day job and the kids and all to find time to write is a challenge.

[00:07:38] And so it was definitely

[00:07:39] stressful.

[00:07:41] Ross: And sort of, what period of time was there from this initial

[00:07:45] idea, perhaps the approach from the publisher and, and it, you holding a copy in your

[00:07:50] Debbie: Okay. I'm going to have to do some backward met. So it came out in January of 2024

[00:07:54] is when it was released. So my manuscript was due in the early part of 2023, [00:08:00] which means it was

[00:08:01] I wrote it for about a year. So it was in 2022.

[00:08:05] The opportunity came before that. I wrote for about a year and then, you know, there's a whole process of editing and back and forth And then they have to put it in print and that kind of thing. So it's a long process a multi year process

[00:08:18] Ross: And how did you come up with the structure? What was your, what was your creative approach? Which came first? Did you start writing did you have the structure first and then start populating

[00:08:28] Debbie: So I will confess that?

[00:08:30] i'm a very Disorganized writer, which is part of my that's one of my problems and that's where I get that's where my inner demons come out is that I just write little bits and pieces here and there and it's all over the place and it's a mess and anyone who looks at an early draft of mine would think I was like incoherent because it's so all over the place and then I kind of organize things and move things around and the way I ended up structuring it is that the first part the first few chapters are are kind of introductory theory, you know, what is burnout?

[00:09:06] just kind of a, a model of burnout and kind of theoretical. And then I look at some of the internal processes. So things we can sort of look at within ourselves with burnout and then external changes, both changes in our lives, changes in how we're managing time, changes in our habits. our communication, boundary setting, that kind of thing, and also systemic and cultural changes and organizational changes, which is absolutely essential for burnout.

[00:09:36] So I really, once I get through the theory, I go kind of from the inside out with burnout in terms of, you know, what are some things we can do. And my argument is that to really be able to understand burnout, we have to look at it at all of these levels, right, from the cultural, um, organizational level to how we as individuals are doing inside, what's showing up for us [00:10:00] internally, how are we suffering, and I really believe that we need to look at, burnout is complex, and I really believe that we need to look at it at all these different levels to be able to really understand it and help people who are experiencing burnout.

[00:10:14] Ross: And what particularly struck me was how complete it is, and I'm just going to grab my copy off the

[00:10:20] shelf, because I can show you it's real, it's not a hologram,

[00:10:23] Debbie: He's holding it in his hands. I can see it on the

[00:10:27] video.

[00:10:27] Ross: and it really struck me how complete a guide this is, because the part three, so part one, as you say, is about understanding burnout. Part two is about transforming burnout internally with psychological flexibility. Part three is about Making changes, and I love the chapter titles here. From burnout to growth, possibility, and change.

[00:10:52] Recharging with values based daily habits. Managing time, creating community and connection. Speaking up and setting boundaries, and working towards cultural and systemic change, a vision for a better future. but that section has been super useful.

[00:11:09] It is brigading my thinking, because a lot of people I work with talk about boundaries. The world of work is more complex. There are more demands on individuals, both with just the busyness of life and caring responsibilities. And boundaries is becoming a more and more important topic in my, in my field of work. But I want to take us back, just if we could, how would you describe burnout to the listener? Because it's a word we use, it's now become part of everyday vocabulary.

[00:11:38] How would you describe it to the person listening who's curious?

[00:11:43] Debbie: I always go back to the, the,

[00:11:45] World Health Organization's definition, because as these three components that I think really describe it well, because you're right, it's used in a very loose way that I think is probably sometimes overused to describe [00:12:00] things that aren't really technically burnout, but it's basically when you feel really exhausted and depleted in a work role and the work role part is essential, right?

[00:12:11] It could be. Any type of work, a lot of different things in my mind classify as work, but it's always related to work and you just feel exhausted. You feel like you don't have any energy left for the work ahead of you. Usually, you feel pretty disconnected from it and negative about it. So kind of negativity and cynicism are part of it and then also you feel less effective, right?

[00:12:36] You're just less engaged and so you're not feeling as. So normally you might feel pretty good or at least competent, adequate at your work, but all of a sudden you feel like you're not so sure if you're good at it anymore. Maybe you've Kind of withdrawn from it to the point where you aren't really as engaged and you're feeling that but even if you are performing at your usual level, you're just not feeling as as positive about it.

[00:12:59] So that's kind of burnout in a nutshell and I think that, you know, it can really vary in terms of things like severity and how long it lasts and that type of thing. But that cluster of just feeling sort of disengaged, disconnected, exhausted, that's what we mean by burnout.

[00:13:14] Ross: My impression is people can use it when they've had

[00:13:16] a long week.

[00:13:17] Debbie: Yeah.

[00:13:18] Ross: And it's understanding for ourselves that it's, one component is

[00:13:21] that feeling of a kind of exhaustion, but there's more

[00:13:25] Debbie: Yeah.

[00:13:25] Ross: than that.

[00:13:26] Debbie: Well, and I like to, to clarify the exhaustion part of it because, you know, we'll all feel exhausted if we're sleep deprived for a while. That's normal. But if you have a couple of days to recover, you get a few good nights of sleep in a row, you'll usually feel better. And this isn't like that. It's more of a fatigue and kind of an emotional exhaustion.

[00:13:48] And it doesn't really go away, even if you have a weekend off or you have, you know, a couple of nights of good sleep. it's different than that. It's a little more, it's kind of like this deep [00:14:00] exhaustion.

[00:14:00] Ross: mmm, I agree. Debbie, you then talk about how enhancing our own psychological flexibility, doing that inner work can really help us when responding to maybe the signals of burnout.

[00:14:14] do, you feel that ACT is particularly

[00:14:15] suited for Approaching burnout.

[00:14:17] Debbie: I do, I think philosophically, you know, if you think about one of the main components of burnout being disconnection, disengagement, and think about how in ACT the main goal is to have psychological flexibility In order to live with meaning and purpose and vitality. And so it's a natural fit philosophically.

[00:14:41] And I think what happens often with burnout is that people get, you know, it happens because of chronic stress. And that's key. I should have actually mentioned that in the definition. It underlies burnout, right? There's always chronic stress that just doesn't, Resolve over the course of time, it might fluctuate a bit, but it's just constant stress.

[00:15:00] That's kind of ongoing and often what happens when we're stressed is that we get all tangled up inside about it. Right? And over the course of time, we naturally just. get exhausted by it. And we tend to do things internally under stress that actually don't really help us very much in the long run. Part of it is how we're relating to our internal experience.

[00:15:27] Often we're losing perspective on things. We're so caught up in our immediate stressors that we, we just don't see the big picture and we can lose sight of our values and our sight of that sense of meaning and purpose. In a day to day kind of way. And so for instance, and I'll give you an example from myself because I, I experienced burnout and that's part of why I ended up specializing in this because it was, you know, something that I myself struggled with.

[00:15:57] And one of the things that happened to me [00:16:00] was that I didn't really understand what was going on. And I. I was working really hard. I was busy, busy, busy at work. I also had two young kids at home. And so that was very stressful. And what I found is that I wasn't able to say, Oh yes, you're stressed. Of course.

[00:16:19] No wonder. You know, how might you take care of yourself? What do you need? Maybe this is too stressful. And, and having a compassionate view toward myself. Instead, I kind of felt like, Oh, I'm not keeping up. I need to get all this stuff done so that I'm get to a better place. But I almost felt like the stress was making me exacerbate my own burnout because I couldn't understand what was happening.

[00:16:48] So I had lost perspective a little bit and I was caught in that internal struggle with myself. Like, Oh, you know, what's wrong with you? You need to get better at this. Like, you should be able to handle this and, and so on. And I think that's pretty common. What I see with burnout is that people, they're struggling inside and it's driven by stress.

[00:17:07] It actually makes perfect sense to be feeling that way. It's just that we get caught in that struggle and then that makes the situation worse.

[00:17:15] Ross: yeah, absolutely. There's a question popping up in my mind, is there an anthropological angle to this, to burnout?

[00:17:25] Debbie: Ooh, that's a very good question.

[00:17:28] Well, here's how I tie it to anthropology, not necessarily around the internal struggle or the exhaustion, but maybe, but, but I do think that we're in a culture right now, which is very prone to burnout, where people are very prone to burnout because we tend to work in these situations that are not really in our nature.

[00:17:52] As humans, right? We're meant to work in groups with a lot of support. And yes, I mean, I'm sure throughout humanity, things have been hard [00:18:00] and a lot of humans have been in stressful, hard situations. You know, if there's food shortage or there's warfare going on or something, there's all been all kinds of challenges, but I think that this particular way that we work, a lot of people work in isolation, people are expected to work You know, in this little niche that they have, often we're sitting at the computer all day.

[00:18:23] I mean, these kinds of things, I think, might contribute. I mean, are we wired to, to get exhausted if the stress is too much for too long? That's a good question. I think that's possible.

[00:18:35] Ross: I hear you, and I agree. I think we are a social species and we're also a species that evolved in nature. I've got a few colleagues who are using ACT in relation to being outdoors and being in a woodland and developing leadership courses around that to reconnect with nature where we evolved. And it makes so much sense.

[00:18:58] And to have leaders who are willing to engage with courses like that is

[00:19:02] really interesting.

[00:19:04] Debbie: I mean, I just think one, one area you see burnout

[00:19:06] sometimes is. Parenting, you. know, parental burnout is a newer area of study, but it's certainly something that a lot of parents can relate to. And I think, you know, we used to raise kids in big groups and now we have people home with their kids.

[00:19:22] It's demanding. We have a lot of cultural expectations and people aren't necessarily getting the kind of support to raise children. So that's just one example, but there are so

[00:19:32] many.

[00:19:34] Ross: And, and people of an age similar to ours, sometimes we have the experience of caring for more elderly relatives,

[00:19:41] parents perhaps.

[00:19:42] Debbie: Yeah.

[00:19:43] caregiver burnout.

[00:19:44] Ross: yeah, quite often there's that

[00:19:46] duality to it, I think. So it's so interesting that perspective too. And then plonking someone experiencing that caregiver burnout into a workplace.

[00:19:57] It's almost impossible to, to

[00:19:59] [00:20:00] contemplate.

[00:20:01] Debbie: Yes.

[00:20:01] Ross: happening. So, you talked about some of the

[00:20:06] demons that showed up for you. What were those demons saying,

[00:20:09] Debbie: I mean, my loudest self critical narrative when I'm writing is everybody knows this. This is so boring. You know, you have nothing interesting to say here. You know, you sit down to write and everything you can think of sounds just obvious. I think especially because you're so immersed in it. So, yeah, I get really

[00:20:35] self critical around that.

[00:20:37] Ross: what kept you going?

[00:20:39] Debbie: I mean, partly just the external deadline of wanting to get it done. And when I was supposed to, which I did ask for a slight extension, but, but not, I just had a couple of parts that weren't quite finished yet. I think also, you know, again, it's, it's a typical, situation that in terms of being meaningful and, um, Also willing to experience discomfort.

[00:21:03] I mean, I think I know that putting yourself out there on writing is vulnerable. It's scary. And I tell some personal stories in the book about my own Burnett. I use some from my own life. I feel, you know, worried that I'll get criticism, that I'll get some bad reviews or something like that. And, and I, I think that there are a lot of times when I would rather do a million other things than sit down and write for two or three hours.

[00:21:28] but I, I think I just kept reminding myself that this is an important

[00:21:32] contribution that I could make. I think that that the values behind it for me have to do with just having a point of view and wanting to share it in the hopes that it will help someone. That it will kind of, that my message will help people who are suffering in some way.

[00:21:48] Ross: And I love to hear you talk about that anecdotes and disclosure from your own life, because my view is that makes it even more powerful. firmly believe that if we [00:22:00] can express vulnerability, whether it's through the spoken word or through writing or through training and facilitation, that we can have more of an impact in the world.

[00:22:10] I'm curious, was that a difficult

[00:22:13] decision for you to, be open about? Your life and

[00:22:17] your struggles.

[00:22:19] Debbie: is, I think, you know, it's not the first time I've grappled with that

[00:22:22] because of my podcast, because I do share personal stories on the podcast, too. But I also try to be aware of, My own limitations around that. I'm aware that anybody can access it. And so I want to be thoughtful about it. I don't really necessarily want to be overly disclosing, but I, I take a stance that's similar to a lot of act people, which is that, you know, being willing to disclose some examples from your own life is very important.

[00:22:54] Validating for people, normalizing. It gives this sense of common humanity that we're all in the same soup, right? pea, soupers, . so I think it's really important to do that. And I also do feel a little bit vulnerable sometimes because I think it's a fine line. I think sometimes between oversharing or sharing in a way that you feel uncomfortable with.

[00:23:19] There were a couple things that I ended up deciding to take out of the book. I think in the podcast, occasionally we've had for ourselves or a guest where we say afterwards, they're questioning or we have a question like, oh, I'm not sure if I should have shared that. And we err on the side of taking it out if we're not sure.

[00:23:37] Ross: Me too.

[00:23:38] Debbie: You know, but clients can listen to my podcast or read my book. My mom reads it. My mom has read it. My dad has read it. My, you know, I just like to be aware of not, also not talking about other people in a way that they might feel comfortable with. Like I'll mention my kids, but I'm not going to share a story about something one of my kids did that they might

[00:23:59] [00:24:00] someday wish I hadn't made public, you know?

[00:24:02] So I just try to be thoughtful about it, and it feels vulnerable, for sure.

[00:24:06] Ross: passage,

[00:24:09] well, not a passage, a chapter, and I thought I'd marked it Debbie, but it appears I haven't. ah. Yes, the way you wrote about mindfulness, And you said, it's complicated, is the title of that chapter, and it was just so refreshing to hear how you described it. You described yourself as a naturally, a rather unmindful person, and something you said, I was kind of going, yes. Debbie, because you said sometimes I roll my eyes at how mindfulness is used within the

[00:24:44] Western wellness cultures these days.

[00:24:47] I can see a lot of problems with the way it's often presented as a quick fix wellness intervention, more focused on self improvement and attaining a blissful feeling state, and on doing good in the external world. Amen.

[00:24:59] Debbie: Yeah.

[00:25:00] Ross: I see that mindfulness has been damaged by its own popularity. Because people have jumped on that bandwagon, and some of those people who've jumped on the bandwagon to mix metaphors are snake oil

[00:25:11] salesmen.

[00:25:12] Debbie: Yeah,

[00:25:13] Ross: And it's so frustrating of something that can be useful.

[00:25:16] Debbie: I agree. I

[00:25:17] was in a little bit of a bind about how I was going to present that chapter because I do feel like mindfulness is very important for burnout. I really do. And I benefit from it a lot in my own life. And I also think there are some real problems in how it's used these days. And I see that in burnout spaces a lot.

[00:25:37] It's thrown at people a little bit like a quick fix. And it almost feels like a fix. Like it's used in a way that's not actually going to help the situation much in the long run because it ignores some of the other factors that are going on. And so I think by when I had that idea of like, why don't I present both sides of that and talk about the debate [00:26:00] and what I grapple with and it felt like, okay, that I can do I mean, in the end, I think mindfulness is very useful. it's just we have to be conscious of how it's being used.

[00:26:10] Ross: absolutely. And the definition we use with, people we're working with. And there's something that just touched me when you said, and yet I do practice mindfulness sometimes, irregularly and imperfectly. And it has helped me tremendously. Beautiful sentence. And That could describe my own mindfulness practice. It's a

[00:26:28] little bit on and

[00:26:29] Debbie: Mm hmm.

[00:26:30] Ross: and it does help me.

[00:26:32] Debbie: Yep.

[00:26:33] Ross: And then I work with organizations who've used it as a kind of protective thing. They've given all their employees an app or a particular type of smartwatch

[00:26:44] and said, well, look what

[00:26:45] we've done. And they've got the mindfulness app,

[00:26:49] like it's some sort of mystery

[00:26:50] medicine or a

[00:26:51] Debbie: Yeah.

[00:26:52] Ross: And that

[00:26:52] is disappointing.

[00:26:54] Debbie: know there's a term for that that I recently discovered? I think it, it came out a couple years ago, but it hasn't really made its way out into the culture much. And so I didn't know about this term when I was writing the book, but it's called care washing, which is when an organization puts on a show of, we care, care so much about employee well being.

[00:27:14] Look, we offer mindfulness classes, we offer free massages, that kind of thing. And yet, their policies don't really support worker well being. And so I love that term care washing. I think it's so perfect for this.

[00:27:29] Ross: is there something you've taken away from the

[00:27:31] whole process of writing this book, Debbie?

[00:27:33] Debbie: Ah, well, you know, I do think that on the content level, I think that Right in the book helped me clarify and understand my own approach to burnout in a deeper way and help me connect a lot. So content wise, I think it actually helped me understand this phenomenon, which I work with every day in my private practice.

[00:27:58] And so I think that was [00:28:00] useful. Um, I also think that just personally, I mean, I think that there, I mentioned earlier about facing my inner demons while I write, but I actually came out of it in this strange way, wanting to write more, but not necessarily write in this sort of deadline driven um, Way, at least not right now, but it kind of got me in a little bit of a writing habit and that has stuck, but now it's more personal writing and journaling and that kind of thing.

[00:28:32] And it's, it's actually sort of reconnected me with a love I had when I was younger, which was creative writing. And so, you know, I'm kind of appreciative of that now in a way that I wasn't when I was grinding away,

[00:28:46] trying to meet deadlines.

[00:28:48] Ross: Lovely. And how are people responding to

[00:28:51] the book, Debbie?

[00:28:52] Debbie: So far, good. well, I've heard entirely positive, you know, responses. And I think that one that was most meaningful to me was a client of mine who I had mentioned the book to and, I can't remember if I gave her a copy or if she went off and ordered it herself, but she emailed me a few days later and said she had read the entire thing over the weekend and it, it sparked some immediate changes.

[00:29:18] She actually canceled some meetings she had on her schedule and made a few changes. right away after reading the book. And it really shifted her perspective on a few things. And that alone made it feel like it was worthwhile just to know. And

[00:29:35] Ross: And

[00:29:36] Debbie: it. And I was just, I was so grateful to her for that.

[00:29:39] Ross: have I seen on social media that you're doing a few

[00:29:43] appearances at bookshops? I did a few, a few local ones, and I think for now, at least I'm, that was all I had in me for the time being. So I did a couple of them here in Denver, yes. Er, the Denver area. I did one in Boulder and one in Denver at two of my very favorite bookstores.

[00:29:59] Lovely. [00:30:00]

[00:30:00] So there's No plans, for

[00:30:01] a tour? a

[00:30:02] Debbie: world tour?

[00:30:03] No plans, no plans. not Yet. You never know.

[00:30:08] Ross: Yeah. Debbie, Is there a brief takeaway you have that might be

[00:30:12] useful for the listeners?

[00:30:14] Debbie: Well, I'm going to actually do two. The first

[00:30:16] Is If you're feeling burnt out or even like you're tipping toward burnout, reach out for support. Tell someone, get help, get practical help or get emotional support, whatever you need. And two is to just take a look at what depletes you and what recharges you when you're stressed.

[00:30:35] And that's very individual, you know, one person is different from another. But just see if you can identify that for yourself. and make a little bit more room for the things that recharge you, whether that's rest or fun or something active. but I think it's really important for people to be intentional around this.

[00:30:54] Ross: Lovely. Very concise and very

[00:30:56] actionable, Debbie.

[00:30:57] Thank you very, very

[00:30:58] much.

[00:30:59] Debbie: You're welcome.

[00:31:00] Ross: Debbie, it's a joy to have you on the show and just chat with you. I could chat for hours.

[00:31:05] I'm so grateful for you joining me on

[00:31:08] PeopleSoup. Thank you

[00:31:09] very much.

[00:31:10] Debbie: Well, likewise for us. I really have enjoyed getting to know my birthday buddy and, uh, having the chance to talk with you. I have admired you from afar for a long time. And so it's really delightful to have the chance to talk with you.

[00:31:23] Ross: That's it, folks. Part 2 of my chat with Debbie in the bag. Please do check out Debbie's book. Act for burnout.

[00:31:36] It is so useful. You'll find the show notes for this episode at peoplesoup. captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can email me at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com On Twitter, you We're at Ross McCoach on Instagram at people.

[00:31:58] soup and on [00:32:00] Facebook, we are at people soup pod. you can help me reach more people with the special people soup ingredients. Stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, pea soupers, and bye for now.

[00:32:23]

[00:32:23] Debbie: I think so. it's meant to be. Sign me up for Flamenco lessons and an omelet.

[00:32:30] Ross: Brilliant. Thank you