00:00:06 Sana: You know what's wild right now while we're recording this? Someone out there is launching their first podcast episode. They have got the mic, the intro music, the outro music, maybe even a decent logo. They are excited. And statistically speaking, in about three months, they'll probably be done. Not because they ran out of things to say, not because nobody listened, but because they hit that wall. The one that sits right between. I made a thing and I built something that lasts.

00:00:46 Sana: Welcome back, listeners to this episode of the podcast. I'm your host, Sana, as always, and this is where we talk about the messy, unglamorous parts of building businesses and creative projects that most people don't post, or maybe rather very seldom post about on LinkedIn. Now listen to today's guest. He didn't stumble into podcasting because it looked fun or trendy. He built a veteran powered media network from the ground up barracks media by understanding what actually breaks when a podcast tries to go from hobby to sustainable business. He has seen talented people do great work and still quietly disappear. He's also seen what separates the shows that stick around from the ones that fade out after episode twelve. So if you have ever wondered why your favorite niche podcast suddenly stopped posting, or if you if you are thinking about starting one yourself and you want to skip the part where you learn expensive lessons the hard way. This conversation is for you. So let's get into it and let's welcome our incredible guest, Donald Dann. So, Donald, welcome to Brisbane. And it's really, really an honor to have you here. Really excited.

00:02:16 Donald Dunn: Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

00:02:19 Sana: Absolutely. This is going to be a masterclass, I'm very sure, for the listeners. But before that for me as well, because I have been into podcasting for more than a year now. And uh, in the biggest misconception that people have about podcasting is anybody can do it. Yes, anybody can do it. But it's not the mic or the camera or the studio and the recording and everything. There's so many things happening, but because you're coming in from the industry. So I think, uh, we will have so much to learn today. But before that, you know, let's start with a very uncomfortable truth here, Donald, that you have said most podcasts don't fail because of lack of talent or bad ideas, but they fail because of what happens after the recording stops. So if you can shed some light on that.

00:03:12 Donald Dunn: Yeah, absolutely. You know, um, a lot of podcasters think that when they when they come into this podcast, they're, they're going to be able to be Joe Rogan by themselves. And, and they forget that there is a whole team when those cameras shut off that is, is working with editing, getting new, uh, guests ready. I mean, a whole bunch of off the scene stuff. And I think that's where a lot of podcasters, when they turn that camera off and they say, okay, now I've got I've got my video, I've got my audio, what's next? And that editing phase, the marketing phase, all of those additional things that, uh, most creators do not enjoy. Uh, whether you're an author or a podcaster, you know, we enjoy the creative side. But, uh, when you're doing it by yourself, you spend an average of a half hour to an hour doing a podcast. And and if it's video, you're going to spend three hours rewatching it and editing it, and and it all takes time.

00:04:17 Sana: He's absolutely wrong. Absolutely. I mean, I enjoy, uh, while being on podcasts, having conversations, but then the real work, it all starts, uh, behind the scenes, you know, and and it's not just, uh, getting the podcast done and doing everything, uh, effortlessly or efficiently or seamlessly, but from the time when you're pitching it, you're getting the guest, you're giving them an idea about the show you, the calendar management, the scheduling, the scripting. Make sure that the guest is there, the last minute changes. I mean, it's a whole lot of a different ball game.

00:04:59 Donald Dunn: Yeah. You know, you're wearing a lot of different hats. Um, you know, all all these major shows have producers, they have marketers, they have editors there. You know, all of these people out there that are doing, um, a specific task. And it's because each of these tasks are equally important. Um, they may not be the fun part, but if you can create the best show in the world, if nobody can understand it because the audio is not good, nobody's going to watch it. If if nobody markets it and and shares it and gets people to to realize where you're at, one of what is it? We're over three million podcasts now if nobody's, you know, sitting here saying, hey, I'm over here in the corner, listen to me. Nobody's going to find you. And and lastly, if the, the cover art or you know, your your title, your SEO, all of those types of things don't come into play either. These platforms are not going to find you either.

00:06:04 Sana: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, one question that comes to my mind. I'm not sure whether it's a valid question or not. Uh, Donald, but you know, this this expectation that, um, like, I would like to be the Joe Rogan's or the or, you know, the top podcasters of this world, uh, is the disconnect exactly related to the way podcasting industry functions, or is it because of the mindset or the the huge expectation?

00:06:42 Donald Dunn: I think, uh, the the bigger problem is, is, is and Joe Rogan, I use him a lot because he is an amazing example, right? Not just because he has a successful show. It's it's everything that happened before he had a successful show. Yes. A lot of people don't understand how important the first decision that you need to make if you're going to start a podcast is, is what am I going to talk about? And a lot of people make that mistake where they go on YouTube or, or they go into Google and they try to find what is trending out there. What is everybody searching for? But if that's not a topic that you're passionate about, you have already. You've already put your podcast in the graveyard because, uh, when it gets tough and and you everybody does it, they look at their stats and, and at the beginning they see three downloads for the week or, or five or whatever that number is. And it's it's depressing. So you've got to have passion behind it. Joe Rogan did before he started it. He did it to kind of go along with his comedy. You know, he wired up his house and put cameras everywhere and invited his friends over and and just made jokes and and laughed and had a good time that they like. They would have if there was no cameras there. And and that authenticity is what carried the show through.

00:08:02 Sana: That's true. That's absolutely right. Um, and now I want to kind of also bring in another point here. Like, you know, a lot of creators would hear that and say, yeah, um, but I'm not trying to build something like a media empire or something huge. I just, I just want to make good content and connect with people who care. It's it's a genuine, um, intention. Yeah. Where's where's the line between having sustainable structure and then, you know, sucking all the creative soul out of it because, um, it may sound like, you know, you're saying the scrappy passion project approach is doomed from the start?

00:08:43 Donald Dunn: Yeah. So, you know, that's a good question because, you know, you have to you have to know where you want to get to in order to be able to map it out. And and there is absolutely a place in, in this industry for the the people that just have a story and that just have a topic that they want to talk about and, and maybe bring guests on. Maybe not. And there is there's plenty of, um, apps out there that will make this feasible. You know, one of them being, you know, I don't use it personally, but I have in the past, uh, Riverside is is a good app for the the beginner. And you can you can do your recording. You can hit a few buttons and it will completely edit, uh, a lot of the stuff out. And that right there is going to take you above and beyond the, the normal podcaster, the one that's not going to make it. And people don't understand that you use the number, you know, twelve, twelve podcasts or whatever. At the end of the day, you know, that's that is really how quick some of these podcasts never see. Another episode is is shortly right around that ten podcast episode mark. And it's because one that podcaster didn't put down what his expectations were. Again, like we said, do you want just a show that you're sharing content? Maybe it's a hobby. You know, maybe, maybe I'm a golfer and I just want to talk about podcasting and bringing on other guests and learning tips and sharing my strategies and and so forth. And it's just for fun. Um, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But but keep it in that ballpark where you're not trying to do an episode every other day, or four recordings a day for for your hobby because you're going to burn yourself out. Um, the, uh, the other side of this is most podcasters start there and and they changes later, you know, they They get hooked. For me, myself, you know, my my flagship show, Spirits and Stories with Donald Dunn has been going on now for I think we just hit year five.

00:10:59 Sana: And wow.

00:11:00 Donald Dunn: People don't realize that show started with two people that didn't even know what a podcast was. If you go back and you look at the first year's worth of episodes, the audio is horrible. The video is horrible. Yeah. You know, and the show has grown so much. Um, yeah. But what people don't understand is that show started out as therapy for myself, you know, dealing with PTSD and and some, some other struggles. I was able to share my stories with other people. And, and at that point of the career, I didn't care if one person watched the show or ten thousand people watched it. It was about the fact that after the show, I felt better for sharing. And so as the show grew it, the expectations of myself changed. You know, as as I felt healing, I started to just want to help others and bring others on and let them tell their stories. And that's how that show started. So it started out of passion. And, uh, you know, now here we are. I'm, I'm year four into that. And and I'm now taking it to the point where I want to, um, one, I created a media company with the purpose to help the podcasters out there that are that don't know what they want or don't know how to get there, um, or just don't want to spend the time with editing, marketing and all those other, um, non fun stuff. Because right now you can lose a lot of money testing different products and different platforms that don't promise.

00:12:39 Sana: Exactly. This is this is a very important point that you highlighted because there are now. You know, I guess we started like three or four years back. Four years back, actually. Right. And it's the like during the pandemic or just after the second lockdown was lifted here in India. Um, and, and it started with, uh, it's a, it's a kind of a very interesting story because the person who started like, uh, he started with some LinkedIn, you know, live discussions. So awake, awake started the whole healthy awake, uh, platform. And he started this with some LinkedIn live sessions. So he comes from a human resource background, and he is quite passionate to talk about different aspects in HR. So a couple of episodes he was doing, but they were not getting much of those, you know, much of the traction or response or engagement, but one specific episode that he did on mental health and surprisingly, that it happened in front of me, that I saw that he got calls from few people from countries like Singapore, Malaysia and, uh, two or three other countries. I don't remember the name, uh, of those countries, but he, he got an idea that, yes, I think this is something that people actually want to talk about and research and everything. Then he came across and he started his first podcast. Healthy mind, healthy life on mental health. From there, um, I joined him because I actually, uh, took a huge interest in, you know, the work behind that was he that was, you know, getting done, like, and yes, as you mentioned initially, horrible audio background noises, honking and this and that, but then gradually, um, through discussions, then there are some good communities in podcasting industry where people exchange like this tool is better. This tool is really helping. This tool is not that good. So I think it the industry has seen a very significant growth, uh, not only in terms of the quantity of content being, uh, put out, but also, you know, people, other podcasters helping, you know, the new ones or the the ones who are, who do not have any specific idea about a particular tool. Also, because it's very easy that, you know, you come across one hundred tools for editing. There are so many tools available for broadcasting. There are so many tools available right now for marketing, for everything, so many. So it's very easy to get confused and kind of burn out cash or money into that. And then there is no considerable result or output.

00:15:27 Donald Dunn: Yeah. You know, there's there's one topic, especially right, as SEO has been around for a long time and, and, and people people are familiar with the, the, the abbreviation SEO. They a A lot of them know that it's about making Google fully understand what you're doing and how to find you and where to put you in their searches. But what people don't understand is, is Google themselves is not going to be the primary method that people find your show. And so just just using SEO alone is is great, but you've got to tailor it to the platform. And how the algorithms in that platform, uh, work for um, how are they looking for, for products. So, you know, that's something that, that a lot of people do wrong. Uh, when it comes to that, that advanced side. Yeah. You know, once you've decided that, hey, I do want to make this go bigger and further, that is that is going to be the first place where you start. And there's a lot of little things that you can do without even purchasing or paying for any, any other products. Right. You know, for one, you have to understand your competition. And everybody in, in you go to Apple, you're going to see there's charts and categories and so forth. Um, if you don't even know what's one of those categories you're in, then you've got some learning to do because, um, if you want to be on that list and, and be a ranked show, then you need to know who you're going against and what are they doing correctly. So I strongly suggest one. You take the time and you watch some of those shows. The other thing that is super simple to do is how are people finding those shows? What are what are they doing differently that when somebody types in, uh, podcast business, why is it that Barracks media's network shows don't come up and somebody else's does? What's different about that? And and you could do that super simple with the technology that's out there. Now. You can you can take the the shared link that Apple gives for one of your competitors. Okay. Put it into ChatGPT and say what is the metadata for this link? What is it that I can't see when when I put it in here and I hit click and it just takes me to their show and it's going to pull up their whole RSS feed. It's going to pull up their keywords, it's going to pull up their description, it's going to pull up all sorts of, um, other stuff. And then you can compare that with your link, have ChatGPT do the same thing with, with your, your link and, and find out what it is that's different. What is my keywords that I'm using compared to them. And then what are the key words. What are the top ten keywords for? Um, this category that I'm in. And then the fun part comes, right? This is where you get to be creative again. You identify those ten keywords that fit your show that are shared between you and your competitors. And then you get to strategically figure out how do I use those keywords so it doesn't look like I'm just saying, you know, this episode was about Donald and barracks media and then podcasting episode, you know, and all these other keywords that don't make any sense out of the description. You've gotta you've gotta strategically put those words into that description. So one, it makes sense to the reader. But most importantly, when the platform searches your description based, it's finding those same keywords that the majority of the people that are coming to are searching for. I hope that makes sense the way I put it.

00:19:17 Sana: Absolutely, absolutely, Donald. And this is this is a huge learning for me as well. Um, honestly, the major part of it, I was not aware. Um, and that's exactly it is like, uh, and for listeners as well, maybe, you know, any future potential podcaster is listening to this episode and they'll be like, there, they'll be having their oh my God aha moment. You know, like that's what we say. Aha moment of the lightbulb moment. But yeah. Yeah. Very, very useful insight.

00:19:48 Donald Dunn: Yeah. When, you know, when I realized when I did it the first time I had been podcasting for three or four years at that point, and I was like, I cannot believe what I'm missing here. You know, just just comparing their their stuff to mine. I thought I was back to year one again with bad audio and bad video because my descriptions and and titles and and everything is, is just completely horrible and and it's when you learn those, those small techniques that that truly make a difference.

00:20:27 Speaker 4: I think that's.

00:20:28 Sana: Absolutely does no doubt in that, uh, Donald, I'll be very selfish because this is something that we are also trying to figure out, let's talk about sponsorships. I mean.

00:20:39 Donald Dunn: Okay.

00:20:40 Sana: It's a dream for a lot of podcasters to me as well. Like, you know, like, you know, the numbers, like we have to get enough downloads, um, land a sponsor, maybe quit the day job or there is no money. So we don't have to worry about the monetization part. But you have said and this is also, once again, a kind of surprising for me as well. Most good shows cannot access sponsorships even when they are doing quality work. What's the disconnect? How does it make sense here?

00:21:13 Donald Dunn: And it's because now we're we're trending on the, the business, um, industry, not so much the podcasting industry. Right. So the people, the people that you were talking to that, that you're going to approach and say, hey, um, I think your product would be a great fit for my show. Um, we'd be interested in, in, in a sponsorship or partnership. And now what you're talking about is you're talking about in a business agreement. So you're looking at I think that product would resonate with the customers. I my morals agree with the company and the things that they're doing. So I feel comfortable advertising for you. And in return I need money to make the show grow and and use for additional costs. So it's a partnership? Yeah. On the other side of that, you're talking to somebody that that makes widgets. They make whatever that product is and that is what their baby is. That is their creativity. So they're looking at your show as a return on investment. Mhm. How much am I going to increase sales. What benefits am I going to get. And is it worth the amount of money that that you as a show is asking for. Well when you start looking at things that way and you say, well, you know, on average each episode gets about forty downloads. That number is one of their calculations. I'm going to give this person one hundred dollars. And and on average, I'm going to get forty people to download this episode. And then depending on where they put my advertisement, whether it's at the beginning or at the end, you know, the the reality is the average person either skims a podcast or is is gone within that first twenty five to thirty minutes because they listen to it in their car on their way to work. And and once that travels up, the podcast is up. So they're they those numbers become extremely important. Um, and and if you're not in that getting thousands of downloads, um, for, for your one show in a seven day period, you're going to have a hard time appealing to businesses that are looking at you as a monetary value. What is the return on investment they're going to get? And that is why networking is extremely important. Um, if you don't have that full marketing team or that budget to to plan a strategic, uh, uh, way to market your, your show, then you need to be part of a network where you can combine these downloads. And when you approach these people now you're, you have gained the upper hand because you're now trying to sell advertisement through a network of twenty or thirty different podcasts. And those numbers now drastically change. You know, you're you're talking in seven days, maybe you've had two or three thousand downloads. And that's why it's important to approach them one with explaining why the network is a good partnership for them. What the belief behind that network is. Um, have you have anybody out there ask yourself this. If you go to Spotify. Right. And and you, you start your show through Spotify. They have a advertising program where, where after a while, once you qualify, they'll pay you to advertise, um, for them. But what you don't understand is, is they're doing that because they can get you to do it for pennies on the dollar of what it would cost them to create a commercial and advertise on other platforms. So there again, now you've got a podcasting company or a media company that is looking at your show and saying, okay, there is a return on my investment because I can pay this person much, much less to advertise And then help them grow so that my investment grows with it without actually having to spend more. So my point being is, everything on the sponsorship side has nothing to do with your show other than your stats. You can have the greatest show in the world, but if you're failing at reaching people, that sponsor is not going to care how great your show is because his product is not going to get in front of anybody.

00:25:58 Sana: Exactly, exactly. And this is this can be a hard pill to swallow. But that's the reality because at this point it's transaction.

00:26:07 Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:26:09 Sana: Makes sense. Makes sense. Absolutely makes sense. You know, because we have it feels like that we have created this narrative where, uh, monetization equals sponsorship deals and anything else is somehow lesser. Uh, what about, uh, Patreon? Premium content, direct audience support. Um, you know, something like which YouTube, uh, does turn like is the is the sponsorship model even worth chasing for most people? You think?

00:26:39 Donald Dunn: Um, I will tell you, most people, the answer to that is no. Um, unfortunately, it is, uh, it is it is a model that, um, can help. But, uh, the reality is, again, we're we're now talking with a, a a customer. Now we're turning our show into a product, and and you have to appeal. What, what is it that that other person is going to get for their money? You know, if all I'm advertising is, is, hey, if you are my patron member, you're going to get ad free content. Okay, well, if they're watching your show on YouTube, there's a good chance that they're already paying for YouTube premium, which means they're already getting your content or ad free. You know, if you're if it's an audio podcast, the two biggest platforms that the most is Apple and Spotify, and all of them have premium content already that provides it ad free if they pay for it. So you have to get very creative, right? And one of the things that that I see, uh, a show out there that's very successful, um, it's high in the rankings is, is the Sean Ryan Show. And, um, he's not successful because of his patron, even though he will tell you that the reason why he gets to do what he's doing is because of his Patreon. But the the reality is, is he has amazing guests. He has, uh, important messages. He has a team behind him. And the reason why he has built that Patreon account is because he he has came up with that way to not just take the the Patreon account and have discussions or give them ad free. He allows them to be a part of the show by asking questions that the guests are going to hear. Now, the other part of his patron that a lot of people don't know is Shawn Ryan also has a a security business. You know, he teaches, um, proper gun, uh, how to fire a weapon, uh, how to protect your house, how to do those types of security type things with his background that he is also wrapped up into his Patreon account as well. So he is now saying you're going to get a lot for your money, and YouTube can't provide this. So that is why people have paid for his patron memberships, is because of all those additional little things that that creativity that he created to make the the return on their investment. Worth it?

00:29:26 Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:29:27 Donald Dunn: So what I, what I like to tell people is one. Focus on your your guest. Okay. Make sure that the guests that you're, you're bringing is is one going to appeal to your audience. Because if, if you're if you're not bringing in guests that that people are interested in, they're definitely not going to pay for anything that you have to sell because they don't even like the the free version. And then the second part of this is remember that your job as the host is to highlight the guest. You you have to do everything you can do to make that guest look the best, sound the best, and and ask the questions as as a host. Um, you're going to find out that that is harder done than it sounds, because sometimes you will get guests that only want to say one line answers.

00:30:25 Sana: Exactly.

00:30:26 Donald Dunn: And and you feels like you're pulling teeth trying to get stuff out of them. Um, for for your your your your guests. But unfortunately, that is, that is your job that that's what as a host, you are you have to do is to ask those tough questions, make sure that the show is engaging. And if you try to use a skit before wadded up, throw it in the garbage because you're going to lose the points for being authentic at that point.

00:30:58 Sana: That's true. That's true. And this is, you know, a few days back, um, on LinkedIn, I was seeing a lot of posts, you know, where many podcasters, they struggle to say no to guests. I mean, yeah, because, you know, specifically if, uh, someone is a beginner, they obviously I mean, it's it's a valid point that, you know, I have to get because I have to push content out. So I need to have guests. I need to say yes to everyone. But this is something that we have, uh, I have learned the hard way that sometimes, you know, because it's your podcast, it's your content. So, yeah, you get to at least respectfully say no to guests. Or maybe let's say there's a situation where guests seem to be uninterested, or maybe saying one or two lines, which has actually happened with with me and other hosts. Other hosts in our team, um, they have asked me questions, you know. Oh my goodness, I was feeling so disheartened and, uh, so demotivated because the guest was not engaging, just saying relax. And it's okay.

00:32:10 Donald Dunn: You know, there's this is another part of, of this industry and, and that, that a lot of people don't. They think the creativity ends with the show, and it really doesn't. Um, you know, I would much rather take an episode that I knew did very well, an older episode rebranded as a, a replay or, or come up with a strategic, uh, way to to twist the title. There is billions of people on this planet. And if you think that every single person listened to your podcast, that episode, the very first time it came out, you were you were extremely mistaken. But I would much rather take one an episode that I know if I'm short on guests and and I normally push out, say, two times a week, right. So just for the listeners, you know, Wednesdays are are usually the best podcasting consumption day for audio.

00:33:11 Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:33:11 Donald Dunn: And then followed by Tuesdays and then Thursdays. Right. In that order. Those are your three days of the week if you're if you are releasing on your convenience Friday nights, Saturday nights you are you are already going to see a huge increase by just changing your day. Because those are family days. Those are family times. That's when people are going to the club. That's when people are going to the park. That's when people are are doing things with their families. Your Sunday nights will be better than those two days, but at the end of the day, the middle of the week is the best part. That's that's the the truth of when you're going to reach. Well, if I can't fill my Thursday slot, let's say I'm for myself. Most of my shows I release Tuesdays and Thursdays. If I'm short, I would much rather take a episode that I knew did very well. An older episode retwist it, rebranded it and resubmit it and put it back out there. Then to take a guess that, and I know that my audience is is not going to be happy with because now it's about brand protection, not just, uh, um, filling a date.

00:34:21 Sana: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, some golden nuggets in there, listeners. So, yeah. Uh, before we wrap it up, uh, Donald, I think this, uh, I mean, we already are, uh, extending on the time, but I think it's a very interesting question to, uh, have a perfect place to land here that you have talked about failure in the business world not actually being failure, but opportunity. That's what I also realize. But then it's a nice idea in theory. Or like people would like to say The real podcast. But in practice, when, you know, podcast, it quietly dies after, let's say, twelve episodes or twenty episodes. It just I mean, there's no pivot, no lesson learned, just silence. So where's the opportunity in that? Like, how do you reframe failure when the thing you built just didn't work.

00:35:19 Donald Dunn: Absolutely. So, you know, a lot of times it can be a pivot by just as simple as a host, right. Let's say again, we're talking about this, this guest or this, this podcaster that went with Spotify because it was, um, a free platform. It's a huge name in the industry. You know, uh, a lot of people know him by anchor. But, um, at the end of the day, if you if you're going through that method and you're not reaching the audience that you want, there is a lot of things that you can do to pivot. One is consider moving to a different host. You know, it's not in Spotify's best business plan to monitor to, uh, plan your your episode and push it so that it's found easily by Apple or some of these other directories. Their whole purpose of offering podcasts is to keep people on their platform no different than Facebook or anywhere else. Right. So you need to think like a, a a business. Um, a lot of people don't understand that if you're trying to get views through, um, Facebook, if you are linking your content on there, if you're, you're saying, hey, welcome, followers, I want everybody to come and and watch my new episode on YouTube and you put that YouTube link in there. Facebook's eye of the rhythm will automatically downgrade that, because they don't want people to see the link and leave the platform to go to YouTube, which is a competitor, and watch your episode. You will get a lot more views by directly uploading your episode onto Facebook. And and most people are not going to leave a platform to be in anyways. So just as simple as by looking at one. Who is it that you're hosting with? What am I getting from them? Whether it's paid, you know. Uh, there's a lot of very affordable, quality hosting companies out there. Um, Buzzsprout being one of the best ones. Their their stats? Yeah, their stats are great. Their prices are fair. Um, and they have now they have no interest in other than helping you. You know, they want to see you succeed as well. Because the moment you decide to shut your podcast off, they're losing. They're losing, um, revenue because you now are going to downgrade your account to the free version and walk away. So but by by looking at what is what is the the purpose of the platform I'm on, you know, with Spotify, you're not the customer. You're the you are the product. And that's why it's free. When you go to Buzzsprout, you are now the customer. You're not the product. So. So one you can pivot by changing your host and seeing if that gives you a different outcome. Two you can pivot by adjusting your your descriptions, your titles, your artwork. Um, all of those things you would you would be surprised at how big of a change that makes it does.

00:38:40 Sana: So absolutely.

00:38:41 Speaker 3: Does.

00:38:41 Donald Dunn: There's little things that you can pivot without having to completely redo your whole show and say, let me, let me try these other things. And then if they still don't work, then you need to understand that there's a reason why podcasting is expected to be over twenty five billion dollar industry by next year. Um, it's not because podcasting is failing. So maybe you do need to relook at the content you're talking about. You know, if if I had a podcast that was discussing making coffins. Well, maybe there's not very many people interested in wanting to learn how to make coffins. And if you're if your podcast is so niche that your audience is so small, then maybe you do need to rebrand yourself and relook at how you're doing things. But just quitting is never going to get you to where you want it to be to begin with. But learning from the lessons of the things that's not working, and taking that failure and turning it into opportunity will definitely push you further.

00:39:54 Speaker 3: Well, listeners.

00:39:55 Sana: What a good place to land in here because I don't know about you listeners, but for me, it provides a lot of hope, a lot of, I shouldn't say toxic positivity, but from a realistic POV. It does provide me a lot of hope, and I hope that you also get that, um, ignited feeling. Maybe if you are not feeling good with your podcasting, or if you're thinking that this industry, this market is already cluttered, there is no opportunity for me. We think about it, and it doesn't have to be like a huge step. Start small. Maybe write in your journal or think about something. But yes, start with something. And yes, definitely take away the golden nuggets that Donald just shared today. And Arnold, of course, if our listeners would like to further, uh, seek some help, wisdom, uh, on podcasting and, you know, overall, the the whole essence, the whole life of business running a media network, how they can connect with you.

00:41:01 Donald Dunn: Well, the best way is definitely, uh, from our website, uh, barracks media com. Um, there you can find our editing services. You can look to, uh, if you have a podcast that you're looking to join, a network you can apply to be a part of our network, um, as well. And there's benefits that come from from just being a part of a network, you know, a greater pool, more people helping with the same cause, increasing downloads and, and a better, uh, approach for reaching sponsors. So those are those are all things that you can do from the website if you just want to reach out to me, um, you can email me at, at, at media.com. I'm, I will I'm glad to answer any questions or anything out there. If you've just got a one off question that you need help with, reach out to me and and I'd love to share it. Um, you can find us on Facebook at Barracks Media. Um, that's our our name there. And uh, same with Instagram as well. And same with, uh, I think on YouTube it's Barracks Media Inc.. Um, for our YouTube channel. But, uh, yeah, feel free to reach out and and learn more through the website.

00:42:15 Speaker 3: Uh, of course, of course.

00:42:16 Sana: And listeners, to make that easier, I'll have all the links, all the details that Donald just shared mentioned in the show notes. So find them attached along with this episode on your favorite podcast platform. And I think, you know, I am taking away from this conversation that honestly, podcasting most creative business ventures, they don't fail because people are not talented or passionate. They fail because we underestimate the infrastructure. You know, the unsexy, boring stuff that happens when nobody's watching the systems, the consistency, the clear understanding of what you are actually trying to build. And maybe the hardest part is that none of this guarantees success, but then you can do everything right and still not get the outcome you wanted. But at least you'll know why you have the data. You'll have the insights and you will be better positioned for the next thing. So with that, thank you to everyone for tuning in to this episode of Biz Blend. And Donald, thank you so, so much. I'm really, really thankful that, um, you are sharing the experiences, the insights from the work that you have been doing. And thank you so much once again. And yeah.

00:43:41 Donald Dunn: Thank you for having me on. It was I had a great time doing it.

00:43:44 Sana: Absolutely. And listeners, once again, stay tuned to this blend. Share this episode with your fellow podcasters or anyone who is looking forward to start in this industry. And I'll be back with another episode. Until then, do the work and be honest about what the work actually is. Thank you and take care.