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I've come to learn these kids are probably just better off staying in our own gym and our own weight room and just getting after it, rather than driving 45 minutes that way, 45 minutes that way to play pick a basketball.

So he asked me, what are some of the things you learned and getting over this FOMO concept, this fear of missing out concept, and just getting a little bit more comfortable as to what you're doing and how you're doing it?

And just because you see a snippet on social media about this team playing in a fall league or that team playing in that summer league, you just got to take a deep breath.

And that may be right for them, it may not be right for them, but there's more than one way to do this.

Mike Kaler is the boys basketball varsity head coach at Elkhart Lake High School in Wisconsin.

He's also the founder and program director of Mammoth Basketball.

Taylor took over the program at Elkhart Lake in 2019, and in his second season, the team was the fourth most improved team in Wisconsin.

And and since then, his teams have had the most successful seasons in 35 years of program history, including several regional final appearances and a regional championship as a player.

Kaler finished his high school career as the third leading scorer in the history of Wisconsin high school boys basketball and earned All State and All American honors.

He played collegiately at the University of South Dakota and is a member of the Wisconsin High School Basketball hall of Fame.

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Have a notebook by your side as you listen to this episode with Mike Kahler, boys varsity basketball coach at Elkhart Lake High School in the state of Wisconsin.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Sunkel tonight.

But I am pleased to welcome Mike Kahler, head boys basketball coach at Elkhart Lake High School in the state of Wisconsin and also the founder of Mammoth Basketball, which we'll get into later in the conversation.

Mike, welcome to the Hoop Headspot.

Thanks for having me.

Long time listener, first time guest.

I really appreciate the opportunity.

No doubt looking forward to having the conversation with you, diving into all of the interesting things that and perspectives that you're going to be able to bring to the conversation tonight.

Let's start, Mike, by going back in time to when you were a kid.

Tell me about your first experiences playing the game of basketball.

What made you fall in love with it?

Who kind of introduced you to it?

So I grew up in a small town called Elkhart Lake, which is about one hour north of Milwaukee and one hour south of Green Bay.

And really my first recollection of basketball is falling in love with the sound of the game.

What do I mean by that?

So I recall every Saturday morning our local high school program would offer Saturday morning basketball.

And our gym was situated as such that the locker room was directly under the gym.

So when you go into the locker room, you could hear the balls bouncing, you could hear the shoe squeaking.

And I just remember that sound really as if it was yesterday.

And so I really fell in love with, with the game.

I, you know, I had an older brother, three years older, grew up in a neighborhood where it seemed like I was the, the youngest boy and just really had to compete for everything.

Played a lot of sports, but really, you know, six, seventh grade, just really figured out basketball was my thing.

And you know, I have continued with it with a bit of a pause as I pursued a professional career, but happy to be back in it.

So nothing really unique in terms of my originating story.

It's my, my dad was not a coach.

In fact, I never remember my parents ever saying, mike, you need to get your 500 jump shots up today.

You know, that sort of thing didn't didn't happen.

They were, you know, super supportive of me, but just kind of organically growing up in a small town, fell in love with this game.

So as you started to realize that basketball was going to be your sport compared to the other ones, how did you work on your game?

How did you try to get better?

Obviously, growing up in a small town, yeah, you got your buddies and your friends, but as you get a little bit better and you start to look around and say, hey, I gotta maybe find some other people to compete against, just what was your process for getting better as a middle school, high school player?

Yeah, and, and you know, that can be an issue for small town kids.

And, and my progression, I sort of recall it as, as along the following lines.

You know, you, you first understand, like, hey, I'm fairly good at this in terms of my own school and my own classmates.

And you know, even within a two, three year grade spread, I'm.

I'm doing fairly well.

And then I branched out and kind of went to the, you know, an all star team for the county.

So that's sort of the next level.

And then, you know, freshman, sophomore year, I began playing against, you know, kids from bigger cities, kids from Milwaukee.

Um, the first time I did that, you know, you're just petrified, you're just scared.

You simply don't know how you're going to do, but you sort of passed that test.

And then really my junior and senior year of high school.

So this was 1992, 1993.

You know, there were much fewer AAU teams back then, and I essentially was on the state all star team and was on the circuit as much as that existed, you know, back in those days.

But I was like a sponge.

I just wanted to get as much information as possible.

I would go to the five star camps.

I would go to the.

There was a camp back then called David Kreider camp.

It was actually at the University of Cincinnati.

And I just remember literally having a notebook going back to my room each night, writing things down, getting back to my driveway in a small town in Wisconsin and really just going to work.

What I always found fascinating, and I try to instill this in the kids I work with now, is you never know what your next level is going to be until you work hard to get to it.

You know, logically, at some point you're going to tap out.

But I think the exciting thing from a growth and development standpoint is you just don't know when that is going to be.

And a motivating factor for me, as I recall in my youth was this fear that someone else somewhere was working harder than me and I didn't want anyone to outwork me.

I wasn't a tremendous athlete, but I had a very good work ethic and just really wanted to improve, just to see how good I could possibly get.

What's your favorite memory from going to five star?

I went there once heading into my senior year.

What do you remember about being there?

I just think again, kids today have no idea thinking that, hey, some of the best players in the country are coming in to play on tennis courts.

At least at Robert Morris.

That was the one that I went to.

I don't know which, I don't know if that's the one that you went to too.

But you and my, you and me might have been there together because I, I was at, I was at the Robert Morris one as well.

I mean, obviously you remember the orange T shirts, you remember Howard Garfinkel, sort of an interesting character.

But you're absolutely right.

This was July and we're playing on like asphalt and just scorching heat.

And you know, for me, I remember Jerry Stackhouse was on one of my teams, you know, because you kind of rotate teams there and you know, I kind of sense then like, hey, this guy's pretty good.

But you're right.

Modern players today, you know, the playground culture and the, you know, grinding it out under the sun, you know, that's not present very often anymore.

You know, it seems like everyone wants, you know, an air conditioned gym with perfectly pumped up balls with glass backboards.

And, you know, that's not the reality for still some kids today and certainly, you know, players of our generation.

You know, I even remember, you know, after high school basketball games when I was in middle school, I was just so excited.

I'd, I'd come home cold Wisconsin winter.

I turned the floodlight on to light up the driveway and I'd maybe have to scrape some ice off the driveway.

And the first three minutes my hands were numb.

But, you know, I just wanted to be like those, those boys I just got done watching in the high school gym.

And it was just, you know, really love of the game.

Yeah, that it's, it's definitely a different era in, in so many ways.

I think the outdoor basketball piece is one that we've talked about a lot on the podcast.

Mike Dan, I always say I, I'm glad there's definitely positives to the way that the system is today and there's nothing wrong with having access to Gyms and glass backboards and all the things that kids have access today.

But I always say I'm glad that I grew up in the era that I did and got an opportunity to play outdoor pickup basketball that kids today just don't.

Even if they wanted to, they don't have an opportunity to, especially if you're a pretty good player.

Like, it's really, really hard, at least around here in Cleveland, to find a pickup game outdoors that has good players.

You might have some kids in the neighborhood maybe occasionally meeting up to play somewhere outside, but you're not getting a court where you have college players and good high school players and, you know, good adult men's league players all coming together the way it was back when you were.

I were kids, I think that's one thing that, know.

Really strikes me.

And then the second part of it, when you talk about just going and working yourself, right, shoveling off the driveway and.

And doing what it.

Doing whatever it takes to be able to practice and then emulate the kids that you're seeing at your public high school and wanting to be like them.

I. I remember being exactly like you being in elementary school.

And the thing I always love, Mike, that I thought was so cool is our team would come out and the pep band would be there playing the fight song, and the first guys would come out in the layup line and they slapped the back.

Slap the backboard on their layups.

And I remember thinking that was, like, the greatest thing that anybody could ever do.

And I was like, man, you know, here I am in whatever, fourth, fifth grade thinking, I can't wait until that day when I can run out there with the fight song and slap the backboard.

And then, of course, I'm not telling you anything that you don't know.

The way that basketball from college and Nil to the transfer portal and even now down into the high school level and AAU and all the.

I'm going from this team to that team.

And, you know, but I always say, like, I felt like I knew the guys I was going to play with in high school from the time I was in third or fourth grade.

And I watched the guys that were ahead of me that went through my school, and I just like you, I wanted to be just like them.

And I think that it still exists in some pockets of the country and in some cities, but I don't think it's as prevalent as.

As it used to be.

And again, I don't know that it's necessarily better or worse, but it's just different.

And I always say I'm glad I grew up in the era that I did, and I'm sure you probably feel the same way.

Well, and another thing that's.

That's different too.

Just going back to what always drove me was, how good can I get?

And is someone working harder than me?

There was no such thing as player rankings necessarily, you know, back then.

Yeah, there was your McDonald's all American and street and Smith had their list, and obviously there were all state teams at the end of the year.

But, you know, you didn't know if you were ranked 32nd or 82nd.

And, you know, I sometimes wonder, you know, it can work both ways.

If a player gets a ranking they don't like, well, maybe that motivates them to work even harder.

But I think on the flip side, if a player has, you know, all things, consider perhaps an inflated rating, you know, they might get content.

And, you know, when you don't know those things sometimes and when, you know, you don't have all these scouts and social media activity that you do now, you know, there's pros and cons with that as well.

And there's also a lot of comparison, right?

It's.

I can see when you and I were playing, you maybe knew the guys in your immediate area, like, hey, this kid's going to go play at this school or this kid signed for this scholarship or whatever, but you didn't know what every single player in every single corner of the country was doing.

And then trying to compare yourself to all of those players and just all of that makes it so much more complicated and so much more.

I don't know if pressure is the right word, but just there's this weight of I can see what everybody else is doing, and I start to feel that.

And of course, parents start to feel that in a lot of ways, too, because they see, well, this family down the street, their kid got a scholarship or this kid is getting an opportunity to do this, or this kid's on this team and how come we're not doing that.

And there's a whole bunch of that just, hey, the fear of missing out, right?

That I don't want to miss out on all these different things.

Whereas you or I, I think just you played.

You played for the love of the game.

You played because, yeah, you wanted to max out.

And I think the way you put it, that, you know, you want to see.

You want to see what the next level looks like.

In order to get there, you got to work really, really hard And I think that's when you talk to players and you talk to kids or I think about my experience or listening to you talk.

I think one of the best things that you, you can do as, as an athlete in a particular sport is to say that you got as close to getting as much out of your ability as you possibly could.

And that's how I always tried to look at it is, you know, just like you, I wasn't fast, I wasn't leaping above the rim.

I had to make do with some things that I had, maybe some other talents, but certainly not the, the raw athletic talent that people would necessarily be looking for when you start talking about scouting and that kind of thing.

So then you just say to yourself, can I get the most out of what I have?

And then how do you do that?

And you do it through hard work and determination and putting time in and all that kind of stuff.

And, you know, I get the feeling just from the first 15 minutes of our conversation that, you know, our experiences in a lot of ways in my city that I grew up in was, was bigger than yours, but similar idea, right?

I'm on my driveway, I'm working on my game, I'm trying to find pick up games just like you in the AAU circuit where, you know, back when we were playing like the city of Cleveland, we had two AAU teams and that was it.

And so if you were on one of those two AAU teams, you knew that you were one of the best players in the city.

And it's not anything like it is today.

And so it's just, again, you try to maximize.

I guess the point here is, is that you try to maximize whatever you have and make the best of it.

And certainly that was the path that, that you chose to go down, starting with when you decided to take basketball more seriously than your other sports.

Tell me about your favorite memory from playing high school basketball.

Well, my freshman year, my senior brother was on the team.

Our school had never won a conference championship since like the 1930s, so it had been a while.

We were playing at that time, sort of a big rival school.

And lo and behold, I made a last second shot and my brother passed me the ball.

And there's this picture in the local newspaper of both of us lying on the floor, just, you know, pure joy and boom, first conference championship and since the 1930s at the school.

And, and my dad, both parents were at the game, but my dad still does not recall how he got from the 10th row of the bleachers onto the Floor.

He, I think he floated down.

He, he, he, he got there quickly.

But you know, obviously that's, that's a memory.

You know, I also was, ended up being the third leading scorer in Wisconsin history.

Um, I was that for 30 years and now they play so many more games.

I think I'm sixth.

But my, my senior year, they specifically arranged for our team to play Anthony Peeper's team.

He would play at Marquette.

Collegiately, he was the number one lean scorer.

So this was over the Christmas time.

Uh, he was uh, ended up one, I ended up being three.

It was uh, completely packed gym, a couple thousand people in the gym, statewide media audience, which, you know, this is a big deal back in 1992, 1993.

And not only did I outscore him, but more importantly our team kind of spanked his team.

So it was, was kind of a win win.

But yeah, that, those two memories are ones that really stick out.

Yeah, those are good ones.

Buzzer beaters are always great.

You can't, you can't top those.

I don't care if it's a third grade basketball game or a college game or an NBA game, whatever.

Buzzer beaters.

There's, there's nothing, there's nothing like those.

Especially when there's something at stake.

And then when you get a chance to go against somebody that obviously we talked about comparison a minute ago, but when you're getting a chance to go and compete against somebody that's on your level, that you're competing against in a lot of different ways and then to be able to come out on top, certainly you can understand where those two, why those two memories rank really high for you.

What was your thought process when it came to college basketball?

Was that something?

Because it's interesting now, I think that college basketball during the era when you and I were playing in high school was much more on the national conscience, I think, than it necessarily is today.

You look at the stars of college basketball back in the era when we were playing high school and then into college ourselves, college basketball seemed like it was a bigger thing then.

So what was your college basketball dream and when did it, when did you really start to think, hey, one, I want to play college basketball, and then two, when did it become a reality?

And then we could kind of get into the decision making process as you, as you eventually decided to go to South Dakota?

Yeah.

So, you know, probably after my freshman year, after my first year of varsity basketball and in which, you know, I was successful, started to get some local coverage and you know, the Thought entered into my mind at that point.

You know, like any 14, 15 year old, you of course want to play at the highest level possible.

And then, you know, you start to educate yourself.

My parents and local high school coach really didn't know much about the process.

But that's where, you know, back then your AAU coach, I was coached by Rick Cobb, a former Marquette player who ran kind of the state all star team.

And you know, he was a good mentor and well, you got to go to this camp.

You got to go to this camp.

You know, obviously you end your AAU summer in Vegas at that time period and you know, you just want to go to the highest level possible.

I could certainly put the ball through the hoop with the best of them, but again, my athleticism, you know, foot speed, you know, vertical jump was not at the levels some other players were even back then.

So wanted to go division one just like anybody.

That never became a reality, but, you know, was recruited fairly heavily by some low D1s, D2s, and at some point you, you got to make a decision.

And at the end of my senior year, you know, I made the decision and accepted a full scholarship to the University of South Dakota.

You know, another thing too, as, as you well know, you know, back when we played, I think there was maybe 300ish Division 1 schools and now there's something like 350.

And I was, you know, admittedly one of those borderline D1, D2 players.

And you know, the school I played for and really that whole conference ended up going Division 1, but the university of South Dakota and, and becoming a Coyote was what happened at the end of my senior year in 1993.

What was the adjustment like going to school both athletically and academically and socially?

Going from going from your small town and then going to South Dakota?

Well, the good thing is the University of South Dakota in Vermillion is a small town as well.

So, you know, socially, culturally, that really wasn't a big switch for me.

Obviously the college game is much stronger, is much faster.

I didn't know anybody back then.

It's not like perhaps nowadays where you interact or know your college teammates before you step foot on campus.

You, you know, you're going into a situation where you're going to have a built in friend group or a built in social group.

But you know, you adjust.

That's the great thing about the journey of basketball is, you know, it allows you to meet people from different, you know, backgrounds, different cultures, may have had different life experiences than you, but you know, the great thing is, is you put on the same uniform and, and, and you know, coalesce around the same objectives and you call yourself a team and, and that's really cool.

And I think something that, you know, you miss as an adult, that's sometimes what you coach, right, because you kind of get that feeling.

But I was a role player throughout college and you know, that took a bit of adjusting.

Obviously I was, you know, a big fish in a small pond and you know, you go to a college program and at first blush think, well, I can replicate this, but you know, that's not always possible.

And, and that's a learning process too, but, but a good learning process for, you know, a 21, 22, 23 year old to go through.

It was needed.

It made me a better person.

It made me, you know, more empathetic, made me a better coach, right, because I was a star player and then I was a role player.

You know, academically I was always fine.

I was three time all conference academically.

Me and another friend on the team, we joked that our roles were the GPA stabilizers on the team, but no, it was, it was all good.

I got a fantastic education.

I still keep in touch with many of my college teammates.

We try to get together, you know, every couple years.

And you know, those relationships and those experiences you have, boy, they, they just mean so much more to you almost the older you get.

Was there any thought at any point during your playing career that you would sometime end up as a coach?

Was that on your radar at all during the time while you were playing?

Was not on my radar screen one bit.

Not even one bit.

You know, as a basketball player, you would occasionally get the question, you know, are you going to coach?

Are you going to coach?

You know, it's funny, I, I seem to recall that my typical response to that was, no, I don't want to coach.

I don't want my performance to be judged on the performance of others.

Why would I want to do that?

You know, so, so here I am.

Coaching is almost my third profession.

I was a political science major at the University of South Dakota and fell into a very good network of lawyers, US Senators, governors, Tom Brokaws, University of South Dakota graduate, had a very strong network there of political science majors.

And.

Well, what did you do after your political science degree?

Well, I went to law school.

I went to law school and so I went to law school.

I went to the University of Wisconsin Law School and you know, from there was a lawyer in private practice for almost a decade.

That was sort of my first career and, and then my second career, which I still kind of still am.

I became a law professor.

So I've been professing, you know, for about 12 years now.

I, I still do it, I'm an online law professor.

Was doing that even before COVID And I'm most closely affiliated right now with Texas A and M and I, and I do that all from Wisconsin.

And I'm a small town public high school basketball coach.

All at the same time, so it's cool.

Diversity of interests, I think is something that again, is what makes life rich.

For sure.

As a player, coaching never crossed your mind, right?

You're not thinking about it.

You go and you get your law degree, you have two careers going.

@ what point does the coaching bug come up and bite you?

Was it a singular event?

Was it a light bulb moment?

Was it a slow burn of, hey, I missed basketball?

Let me figure out how I can get back into it.

What was your path back to the game?

Yeah, so kids came into the equation.

My wife and I had twin boys and you know, by the time they were in first or second grade, you, you need volunteer coaches.

And at this point in time, we were living in Carbondale, Illinois because I was a traditional on campus law professor at, at Southern Illinois University.

And you know, I was coaching flag football and was obviously coaching basketball and the competitive juices started flowing again.

And I'm like, you know, even though it's no stakes, you know, youth flag football or second grade basketball, it's like, you know, I kind of like this.

And you know, then I thought about it and like, there are so many parallels between being a law professor and being a coach.

I'm conveying information, I'm trying to inspire, I'm trying to motivate.

So there was a couple year time period there where, you know, I was a youth coach and our, our local high school at that time had a pretty good basketball program.

And I'd go to games on Friday nights with the boys and I'd see the high school atmosphere and like, just saying to myself, like, I really miss this.

I, I, I really, really miss this.

I saw what the high school coach was doing and, and you know, said, not to him, but like, I, I can do this too, right?

And, and I knew that the most logical place to do that was probably back in my hometown.

You know, my wife and I were seriously considering, she's also from the small hometown.

We were seriously considering moving back for any number of reasons and the opportunity to, you know, get more involved with basketball was, you know, among the reasons.

So, you know, we moved back, I think it was in 2018, 2019.

My high school program, my alma mater, had fallen on some very hard times.

Really did not have a winning season since I graduated in 1993.

A typical year was winning two to three games.

A coach would stay maybe for two to three years and onto the next coach.

And if you can believe it or not, the year before I took over, I think they were 2 and 19, and the average margin of loss was 41 points.

Average.

Wow.

So I felt like I could help.

And, you know, small towns mean small towns.

You know, some people like you, some people don't like you.

So I'm just, let's say, thankful I ended up getting the opportunity to return to my alma mater, a place where I experienced success, a place where I wore the uniform to begin this thing called coaching.

And this upcoming season will be my seventh year.

What did it feel like walking in the door after you got the job and sort of stepping into the gym for the first time for your first open gym or your first practice or your first workout and looking around and just again, I'm sure the memories that had to come back to you being.

I always think it's very cool, guys who get to coach at their alma mater.

I think it just adds whatever.

Not that anybody who's not coaching at their alma mater isn't giving 100%, but if there was ever a case for giving 101%, I feel like coaching at your alma mater and just the good feelings that you have about that always feels like it adds just a.

A little extra edge for guys who are coaching at your.

At their alma mater.

So what did it feel like when you stepped through the doors as a coach at your alma mater?

What did that feel like for you?

What was going through your mind?

Well, it was a.

It was a great feeling.

It was a humbling feeling.

You know, I look up and my name's up in the rafters still.

So that was, you know, interesting experience.

But you're absolutely, positively right about the extra level of passion I think a coach has when it's your alma mater.

Now, you know, that can work both ways, too.

But I was very excited and confident that I could turn this around.

But I knew I needed to be very patient as well.

Patience is not my greatest attribute, like it is not for a lot of people.

So, you know, I had to be very patient and remind myself that just because this is my alma mater and I Succeeded here.

These kids were not even born then and that may probably not mean much to them.

I hope it gave me a little extra sense of credibility.

But that in and of itself was not going to change a program around.

What was going to change a program around was hard work, stability, you know, focus on fundamentals.

And, you know, looking back on it, I've, I've grown so much as a coach over just six years that I look back at my first year and was probably faking it to make it right.

You, you know, one of the biggest things I learned was just because you played the game, including at a relatively high level and succeeded, that does not automatically translate into coaching success.

At the end of the day, as the saying goes, it's not what's in your mind, it's what you can communicate and get the kids to do.

So there definitely was a learning curve.

I knew my first season was going to be a challenge.

We essentially were a JV team playing a varsity schedule.

I had no seniors on the roster.

I think I had one junior.

And this is in retrospect a funny story, but not so funny at the time.

It was mid January at the time.

My, my best player goes down with a season ending knee injury, no lie.

Seven minutes later in the same game, my second best player breaks his wrist.

His season is over.

So a challenging season became a very challenging season within the span of 10 minutes in mid January.

So we, we were not just now a JV team playing a varsity schedule.

We were an injured JV team playing a varsity schedule.

And my first year we were 2 and 21.

But my second year we were the, one of the most improved teams in the entire state of Wisconsin as measured by, you know, wind differential from the previous year.

And, you know, we've really kept it going now for the last five years.

We, I don't have a state championship to claim, but you know that.

Not many coaches can say that.

And you know, keeping it going at a small public high school is, is very difficult.

You know, a lot of small public high schools will have a great class go through and then they hit rock bottom.

But, you know, we've been able to maintain a relative consistency, competitive consistency, and we kind of topped it off last season with the regional championship and, you know, are poised to do some good things this year.

So what do you think are the keys to being able to sustain a high school basketball program, first of all, at a public school, but then, as you said, you're also at a very small school, which makes it even more challenging I think one of the things that when I talk to high school coaches and you start talking about having a program that wins consistently year after year after year, there are things that have to be in place in order for that to happen.

As you said, anybody can have a good class come through and have a good record for a year or two while that class is juniors and seniors.

And then if you haven't done the things that you need to do to sustain your program, it falls off.

So when I say to you, sustain sustained success, what do you think have been the keys for you at a small public high school to be able to maintain consistency once you turn the corner and got the program where you wanted it?

How have you been able to sustain success?

What have been the keys to that?

Well, every, you know, even in small towns, you're going to have a youth program, but the high school coach becoming involved in the youth program and start working individually or in a small group way with some of your most talented 6th, 7th, 8th graders who are obviously going to be your future varsity players.

So I even began doing that the year I moved back and I wasn't even the varsity coach yet.

There were two good 8th graders in our community that, you know, at that point, I just, and still do love the game so much.

I just remember going to them and their parents and said, you know, I'd like to help your kid out here.

I see a lot of potential and I would just like to start working with him.

So really, you know, becoming involved on a very active level with your sixth, seventh and certainly eighth graders and working with them on fundamentals, giving them some insight into the high school program, motivating them, encouraging them, and because particularly in a small school, the best freshmen or sophomores, they're, if not varsity starters, they're varsity players.

At a small school, you can maybe afford one, you know, quote, unquote bad class.

But things get really difficult if, if you have a two year gap.

So, you know, just keeping engaged with your middle schoolers and identifying the, the good ones and working with them, you know, in a small town, it's, you know, everybody.

There's really not diamonds in the rough, so to speak, because, you know, you know, you know the landscape well.

Right.

How have you put together a staff from your high school staff down to your middle school staff, and then how do you work with those coaches to help them to understand what your vision is, how you like to teach things so that as players progress from your youth program to your middle school program and on up, that you're building them into the vision of what you have for them when they get to be varsity players.

So how do you put together your staff and then work with that staff to get your team and get those kids prepared to play varsity basketball for you eventually?

What do you mean by staff?

No, I'm joking.

Staff is, you know, at the high school level is two, three, sometimes three coaches.

And you know, the important thing is, is, you know, my first year I basically didn't know what I was doing and got the job.

And you sometimes, you know, you prioritize things and that wasn't highest on the list.

And then all of a sudden Covid hit and you know, that year was kind of a wash.

But after that, when things got to be a little bit normal, you know, coaching clinics, you know, prior to the season, expectations, you know, drill packets, you know, keeping in touch, going to their games, middle school games, which isn't always possible just given when they play versus when we play.

But you know, again with multi sport athletes, which pretty much everyone is in a small town, it's, it's, it's difficult to grab the attention, so to speak, of players during the off season because they're on to baseball season and pre basketball season they're in, you know, football across country.

So it's not easy.

But if anything I've got a good work ethic, I'm pretty persistent.

And you just gotta keep at it because that is the future of your program.

And if you let up as a high school coach, things can fall through the cracks and very quickly do so and then just the basic consistency of it.

Right?

Yeah.

There's no doubt that, you know, I'm going to be in my seventh year and I'm one of the longer tenured coaches in the area.

There's some coaches in our area that, you know, 25, 30 years, but as a seven year coach, I'm sort of in the upper 25% of coaching tenure, which you know, seems kind of odd too, but that's just speaks to, I think some of the difficulties of getting qualified people to want to coach in the modern environment.

Well, thinking about that first year when you get the job and you're coming in as an inexperienced coach, but somebody who, I get the feeling just from what you said that you had maybe the same mentality that I did when I first started coaching.

Of course I was much younger than you, but I had the same idea of hey, I was a good player, so that's going to make me a good coach.

And you quickly realize when you step in front of a group of kids that what you did as a player, not that it's completely irrelevant, but it's close to pretty irrelevant to those kids.

You have to know what you're doing as a coach to be able to teach the game and figure out how you're going to do that and organize and all the things that go along with being a good coach.

So when you think back to that first year and what you were as a coach, and then you think about where you are today, where was the area that you felt like in that first year that you were like, oh man, like, I gotta get better at this particular aspect of coaching.

So I don't know if one or two things stand out for you.

The standard answer here, Mike, is people say I was bad at everything and I had to improve in every area.

That's probably, that's probably the right answer.

Probably.

I assumed a lot as a coach, as a first year coach, I assumed that the players knew the importance of rebounding.

I assumed when I would say box out that they would know how to box out.

I would assume that they had the same basketball IQ as I did.

Which, you know, even going back to the classroom and being a law professor, you can't assume your students know what you know.

So even now, as a more veteran coach, although still relatively young, you know, the first couple weeks of practice, I don't assume anything.

One, there's freshmen and sophomores there who aren't as experienced, but, you know, I don't assume anything.

And this is the teacher in me as well.

I just don't want the kids to know that this is important or reducing turnovers is important.

I want them to know the big picture, why these things are important.

Right.

You know, as a lawyer, I'm kind of, you know, analytical and I'm really into analytics and the so called four factors of success which my players should be able to articulate on a moment's notice.

And just viewing basketball as a subject that I'm teaching them, that has both practical and, well as like big picture strategic reasons for why we're doing these things and the concept that little things really matter.

And my biggest challenge, the first year when we were 2 and 21 and we lost some games, the average margin of loss was in 41, but there were a couple games like that.

You know, in film session, I would say to the guys, like the lack of a box out here or the lack of an offensive crashing of the boards is not the reason we lost this game.

But next year when we're a much older, better team and there's going to be six to eight point games that, you know, go one way based upon certain possession, these little things are going to matter.

Another assumption is assuming that all players and parents wanted a winning basketball program, which, which was a tension my first year, I'm quite confident that there were some players and parents who were fine losing by 40 points per game if that meant they played and if that meant that the parent could go to the game confident that they would see their player play.

So certainly some people bought in and, but you know, that first couple years there was not 100% complete buy in given the, the history of the program over that prior 25 year period.

And that was very difficult for me to accept, to conceptualize.

But, you know, that's the reality, right?

That's where you are.

That's what you signed up for, right?

How did you grow as a coach from that first year in terms of, did you study film, did you read books?

Did you find some coaching mentors either from your past or from your area?

Where did you go to learn to improve your craft as a coach those first couple years?

And where do you continue to go as you, as you try to increase your, you know, your ability as a coach?

So I've often, really have always prided myself on, on being a lifelong learner.

Right.

You're not a lawyer and a law professor and a coach without having some lifetime learning qualities to yourself.

I remember within a week of becoming the high school coach, I called up a hall of fame coach in the area who has been at this 30 years.

He, I actually, when I was playing, he was a coach and I said, hey, I'm the new coach at Elkhart Lake.

Can I pick your brain?

And he was gracious.

And, you know, I went down probably 30 miles from here or so, and we had a nice long discussion.

You know, part of the learning process is easier today than it's ever been, but harder in the same respect because let's face it, there is so much on the Internet, on Twitter about X's and O's.

And as you know, there's some personalities on Twitter who focus on defense, who focus on blobs and slobs, who focus on, you know, zoom action, who focus on this.

And it's very easy to learn, but it can be overwhelming at the same time because there's so much out there.

I'm a big fan of your podcast and have learned so much from you and your guest.

And, you know, there's some other good podcasts out there.

And I just, every off season I wanted to educate myself on an aspect of the game I didn't feel I was an expert on.

You know, because the game has changed when since we played.

I, I'm a huge fan of, of the modern game with the spacing templates and you know, the three man side, the two man side creating advantages, playing out of those advantages.

So like the first off season was probably, you know, dribble handoffs and ball screen actions and then you know, off ball cutting.

And I really got interested one off season in a 131 defense and then it was a 212 defense.

You know, at a small school I, you got to play a lot of zone because you can't get in fall trouble very often.

And sometimes when you're outmatched, the zone defense can be an equalizer.

And you know, plus I played a lot of zone in college and sometimes you do as a coach what you're most comfortable with.

So just continuously learning, continuously learning the lawyer, law professor and me is I like to write.

So I've never published basketball manuals or books, but I, I feel like I have several of them that, that I use and create by myself.

Last couple years we've really gotten into five out flowing type of stuff and there's just so much you can do there, it's almost overwhelming.

But I, I just find it so fascinating.

And my aha moment as a coach was about three years ago when I viewed the basketball court as nothing more than a space.

Right?

It's a space.

You're trying to create space, you're trying to take away space.

Anytime you're playing with a defined boundary, angles are important.

And I just became absolutely fascinated with modern basketball and the spacing templates and you know, just, just love it and you know, absorb it.

And during the off season I probably spend more time than my wife likes, you know, educating myself about some of these things and watching film and breaking down film.

And you know, here's another thing too, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this as well.

I sometimes think, is it too much?

What do I mean by that?

So when we were playing, my best guess is when we played an opponent, we knew if they were good or bad.

And if they were good, we probably knew did they have a good big guy or a good guard.

You know, other than that, we probably just got on a yellow school bus or dropped off at a school and played basketball.

Now as a coach, if I don't watch their four or five previous games.

If I don't know their press, if I don't know their blobs and slobs, I feel like I'm doing a bad job.

So like I break down film within 12 hours of every game and the players get so called teachable moments and I think it adds value.

But I'm also cognizant of the fact for a 16, 17 year old this may be a little bit too much on a Tuesday night when I just got home at 10:30.

So here's my take on that.

I've always been, from the day that I started coaching, I've always felt that the most important thing to me as a coach has always been what does my team do.

I've always been much more interested in making sure that my team does whatever it is that we're going to do, that we do that well.

And that was always, I tried to make that my first priority in any team that I ever coached.

And then what the opponent was going to do, what the officials are doing, anything extraneous to what we could control, our performance I always felt was secondary.

And I do think that part of that came from to some degree my experience as a player with scouting reports or walkthroughs or whatever.

I think back to college and getting a two or three page typed out report of hey, here's some of the actions and things that this team does and hey, here's the player that you're going to match up with and what some of their tendencies are.

And I try to go back and, and I would think about what, of what that I read from a scouting reporter that I saw how much of that was valuable to me in the moment when I was playing the game because obviously the game is so much faster.

And it just, it's a different when you're on the floor as a player and you know this better than anybody, what you see sometimes from the sideline isn't always what the player sees on the floor.

And so I always as a coach was cognizant of what can this, what can, what can my scouting report tell a player that can help them to improve their performance?

And I think one of the things is understanding, understanding the personnel understanding if I have a matchup that I'm going to be guarding somebody.

I kind of want to know like what is this, this player?

Can they shoot?

Can they, can they not go left?

Like though those kinds of things were helpful to me as a player and then maybe if you gave me one or two, maybe three actions Plays, out of bounds situations, I could maybe internalize those and remember in a game, okay, hey, here's what's happening in this particular instance.

Then beyond that, I always felt like at a certain point you use the word, I think overwhelmed, like it's too much that you just kind of, it almost becomes noise.

Because in the, in the midst of a game, right, as a player, you're making so many split second decisions based on what the other nine people around you on the floor are doing and where the ball is that the scouting report on a piece of paper, it was helpful to some degree, but probably not as helpful as my coaches maybe would have wished that it was.

Also, when we were playing, it was a different era of watching film, right?

Because we could, we didn't have access to film the way that kids, players, coaches have today.

Like you and I were watching VHS tape where if you want to watch a play, I always say, I remember sitting in a locker room, coach would like, hey, run that back.

And you'd hit the rewind button and it would go like three minutes past the play that they wanted to watch.

And so then you'd have to watch the same useless three minutes to get back to the play that they wanted to show.

And it just was an inefficient process.

Like as a player, like, I can honestly say, outside of what I did film wise with my coaches, I don't know that I ever really watched film with the idea that I was studying my opponent or trying to figure out how to improve my performance.

It just, we just didn't have access in the same way.

So now when you think about us as coaches today, right, we have so much more access.

The ease of being able to watch video and to be able to share it with our players and the clarity of it and the efficiency of, I can clip out 10 clips of the exact same thing that I want to show to somebody and that I think is helpful.

But no, my, my scouting reports have gotten shorter as I've gotten more into this and I try to cap film sessions at, you know, 15 minutes or so.

But another thing I, I learned as, as a young coach and kind of am more comfortable with now.

You mentioned fomo, fear of missing out.

Well, a lot of young coaches have fear of missing out too.

Oh, this, this team is doing this, that team's doing that.

Therefore I must.

And you know, particularly in the summertime, you know, summer basketball, when you have, you know, 13 to 15 kids in your overall program and that's all four years can be very Difficult, right?

I call it the herding cat season.

And, you know, my first year, my second year, you see this team doing this and that team doing that, and, like, we gotta be doing that.

And, you know, I've come to learn, like, these kids are probably just better off staying in our own gym and our own weight room and, and just getting after it, and rather than driving, you know, 45 minutes that way, 45 minutes that way to play pick a basketball.

So, you know, you asked me, like, what are some of the things you learned?

And, like, getting over this FOMO concept, this fear of missing out concept, and just getting a little bit more comfortable as to what you're doing and how you're doing it.

And just because you see a snippet on social media about this team playing in a fall league or that team playing in that summer league, like, you just got to take a deep breath.

And that may be right for them, it may not be right for them, but there's.

There's more than one way to do this.

Well, and in the past, nobody knew what anybody else was doing, right?

You didn't know what the team exactly down the street.

You had no idea.

You had no idea what they were doing in terms of where are they playing, how much are they playing.

You knew none of that.

And then clearly you said it yourself at the very beginning of the last answer, that there's so much information, there's so many video clips, there's so many cool things about culture, about any aspect of the game that you ever want to find, that you could find yourself going down a rabbit hole every single night, hours at a time.

I want that.

That looks cool.

I want to try that.

Hey, we need to do this.

And before you know it, you've grabbed 50 or 60 different things that you have no earthly chance of ever implementing any of those things with your team.

And so I think to your point, right, as a coach, you really have to curate what your beliefs are and what your philosophy is as a coach and have that be rock solid.

And then, yeah, maybe every year you can find a little tweak or a little something or one or two things.

But if you're just chasing stuff all the time, one, it becomes overwhelming, and then, two, you never get good at the core things that you really, really believe in.

I think that's hard to do as a young coach.

It's one of the things I hear from young coaches all the time.

And I struggled with that, that my first year.

I mean, one year, kind of a deer, deer in the headlights and you, you'd see this playing, like, oh, that's cool.

And then you see this play, oh, that's cool.

And.

But there was no really common theme or consistency to some of these things.

And yeah, we still have set plays, but they follow, you know, kind of the spacing templates, the five out, the horn sets, some high ball screen type stuff.

So there, there are some common themes there where as I felt like a lot of early coaches, it's, it's just kind of a hodgepodge of things and, and rather than, you know, themes and consistency, part of what is growing as.

A coach, right, is is figuring out who you are, figure out what you believe, figuring out what you want to try to do.

And your situation is really unique because a lot of guys who end up becoming head coaches, whether it's at the college or even the high school level, they've probably spent numerous years as an assistant with multiple different coaches who they've seen do different things, do practice in different ways, run a different offense, switch.

Defenses don't switch.

So then they can kind of pick and choose from, hey, I work for this guy and I like this piece of what he did.

I like over here, I take this piece and then you kind of mold all that into sort of your philosophy.

Whereas you came from it where you never really had worked for or with somebody prior to that.

And so now you're where, where are you drawing that from?

You're really going out there and saying, well, I remember what it was like when I was playing.

And you got to kind of pick and choose and figure out what, what do I stand for as a coach?

And that's, it's really not easy to do coming out of the gate.

Even guys who again, have lots of experience as an assistant.

Everybody says when you get to be a head coach, yeah, you have a vision and idea of how you want to play, but it's not always clear right away.

Sometimes it takes you a season or two to get a feel for what do I believe in?

What are my teams, what are they going to, what do I want them to look like?

And I get the sense that that's probably what it was like for you.

Oh, definitely.

I would have probably never admitted it at the time, at least to certain people, but it really took me three years to feel like I had a good handle on some of the things I was doing.

But, you know, that's really no different than a lot of professions, right, where it takes you a couple years to really understand what you're trying to do and, and how you're trying to do it.

But, you know, coaching has been such a great education for me.

You just learn so much about the current generation of kids.

Managing people, relationships, managing a season right, that is a huge part of a coach's job.

You know, fans go to a game on a Tuesday and Friday night and, you know, it gets real when you get home from a home game at 10:30 on a cold January night and you know, you have practice at 3 o' clock the next day and constantly asking yourself, what does my team need today?

What do certain players need from me today?

And on some level, you're making your best guess.

You don't know for sure.

I mean, you can even ask a kid what, what he needs, and that may still not be the answer.

But, but managing a season, the ups and downs, the getting home late at night, the, the understanding that, yeah, I'm sitting here at, at 1:00 clock preparing for practice, but my, my players are in geometry class and probably aren't even thinking about practice right.

And, you know, those are all things I've learned, you know, through coaching.

The game can humble you, the game can bring you great joy, and the game can humble you all at the same time.

Having close relationship with kids, which in a small town, many of my players I've known and have been working with since 6th, 7th grade, that is so gratifying.

Seen them succeed and becoming young men.

But on the same token, because that relationship is fairly close, it can sometimes hurt when that player doesn't do things that you think they were capable of doing so so much in life, a pro and con is just kind of different sides of the same coin.

Um, being a small town coach, you know, people are going to criticize you, you know that going in, but the people that are criticizing you are, are people and families you may have known for 30 years, people who you're going to see, you know, on Main street the next day.

You know, getting back to this hall of fame coach I visited one week into my job, he's like, you know, Mike, the most interesting thing about being a basketball coach is every year your Christmas card list gets smaller.

There's a lot of truth to that when you think about it.

There is.

There really is.

Tell me.

Just, I know one of the things that we talked about when we first connected was just your perspective as a small town public high school coach and how that perspective is different from some of the other guys that we have on the podcast who maybe our coach Net big urban high schools or are coaching at the college level.

Yeah, I mean I, I listen to all your podcasts, a lot of other podcasts.

You know, obviously the, the coaches are much more high profile than me and nearly all instances which, which is good.

But you know, like, I'm a sponge when it comes to this.

I listen to everything and, and try to get teachable points from pretty much everything I, I read or listen to.

And you know, some of the times, you know, you try it, you hear it and you're like, yeah, that's just not going to work here.

Right.

That's just not the way it is.

Like, right.

How to structure your preseason tryout tryouts, what are those?

Right.

You know, culture, working with multi sport athletes, the off season commitment, the, you know, you hear a lot of coaches talk about the next man up mentality, which I totally get.

But sometimes there's not a next man in your program.

Maintaining standards, recognizing that if you strictly enforce every rule, you might not have a team to play on a particular Friday night because there is not that next man up necessarily.

You know, just having 13 to 15 kids in your entire high school program and fielding a varsity team and a JV team from that, it's, it can be difficult practice.

How you structure practice, you know, can be difficult really.

The lack of a scout team, you know, everything looks great against your JV team.

It's very hard to replicate an opponent.

You know, thankfully, particularly during Thanksgiving and the Christmas we have former players, you know, come back and, and that certainly helps with that.

And.

But the interesting thing about basketball is, you know, there's a spectrum, there's a totem pole, whatever you want to call it that.

And, and I know where I fit in there.

And you know, on some level we're all coaching basketball and we're all devoted to this game, but it's really a unique, rewarding in different ways and challenging in different ways.

Being a coach at a small public high school compared to obviously a college coach or a coach at a high school with a thousand players, if not more.

But that's what makes life interesting and that's what makes basketball a special game, is its played in small towns and it's played in big cities.

Right.

What's awesome about what you just said is it does really capture the essence of the game of basketball and then more generally just in terms of coaching and that is that no matter where you're coaching, you can be coaching a Division 1 college team, you could be coaching an NBA team, you could be coaching a third grade travel team.

Or you could be coaching a public high school that has 150 kids in it.

And every coach is trying to solve a puzzle, right?

You're trying to solve the X's and O puzzle.

You're trying to solve the culture slash, great teammate puzzle.

And then there's all these other unique, ancillary things kind of around it that everybody has different things that are presented to them, different scenarios, different situations based on where you are, and you have to solve them, and you have to figure them out.

And one of the things that I know that you know from all the podcast listening that you do and just the learning that we talked about, the basketball coaching world is so willing to share and help one another out.

And that's when one of the things that's been the most gratifying, probably, I think, about doing the pod is just the number of people that come on here that just say, hey, I'm an open book.

I'll share whatever you want to share.

And obviously on here, we don't talk a ton of X's and O's just because it's kind of difficult, I think, on a podcast in an audio format to follow that.

So we stick to more of, again, talking about stories and team building and culture and.

And that kind of thing.

But by the same token, it's all just, no matter what level you're at, coaching is coaching.

And we're all getting a chance to use basketball to be able to impact kids.

And that's what really, I think, makes the game of basketball so special and makes coaching the profession that it is and giving you an opportunity to impact kids and.

And you.

You do it not only as a high school coach, but I want to talk before we finish up, I want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about Mammoth basketball and how you got that started.

So just give us the story behind Mammoth, where it came from and then.

And then where you're at today with it.

Yeah.

So we're probably the only club team in America with an extinct mammal on our.

On our hats as our log.

High school coaching in all states is highly regulated.

You can only do it certain months out of the year.

And in Wisconsin, there's.

It's changed a little bit now, but you can do things in basically April, May, early June, and in the Fall.

And I just had such the itch that I wanted to work with more kids and do this more than what the high school position would provide to me.

I had my son and some former players and some other club ball programs.

And really was not impressed with what was going on and basically just said to myself like, there needs to be a better way of doing this and I'm going to do this and focus on certain things and be honest and truthful with players and parents about who we are and who we aren't.

And we're just going to play good quality basketball and get better.

We may not have kids going on to college, but there's nothing wrong with playing club basketball to expand your relationships, your experiences and be the best high school basketball player you possibly can.

So it was in 2021.

So about four or five years ago I formed Mammoth Basketball.

We don't have teams at every level.

Generally we've got two teams.

Next season we'll have a 16 year team and a 14U.

And you know, there's enough quality basketball in Wisconsin where we don't feel the need to travel unless parents want to take sort of a destination type trip.

And you know, we, we practice a couple times a week.

75% of those practices are just skills based fundamentals.

You obviously have to take the time to become a viable team.

And you know, I'm proud to say no one associated with Mammoth basketball makes a penny.

And because of that our fees are like 1/4 some of the other club programs and it's really fun beating those types of teams when our parents can look at the scoreboard and say, well, we just be your kids and we paid 1/4 less to do it.

But no, it's been good.

And you know, our 16U team in particular is a very quality Wisconsin club team.

Like we're pretty good and next year we're even going to pick it up, you know, another level.

But we're not, you know, an EYBL team.

We're not, you know, we're not at that level.

And what strikes me as interesting about club basketball is we all know there's different levels of college basketball.

Like you would never look at what a Division 2 team does and say, well they would have never done that in the Big Ten.

You understand this Division 2 basketball.

So I have no problem with there being multiple levels of club basketball if, if the parents know what they're getting into and there's an honesty and transparency about what's going on, which is not always the case.

Right.

You do see some interesting things in the club basketball world.

But I think what we do is, is a net positive for, for our kids and, and our parents.

And you know, when I think back of playing club basketball, you know the old saying, I I don't remember the scores, but I do remember the relationships I developed and the experiences I had.

And, you know, that's part of club basketball, too.

It's not just about basketball.

I think it speaks to, again, the ability to use the game to impact young people.

And you can do that as a high school coach, you can do that as a travel coach.

And what you have to do in order to do that, which is what you're doing, is you have to be intentional about how you go about having that impact and the way that you interact with your kids and your players and what you're ultimately trying to get out of it.

Right.

And so much of basketball at any level, high school travel, what you're dealing with in those cases, in way too many instances, is adults who are in it for the adults and not in it for what's in the best interest of the kids.

And I always say that whatever you're going to do, that, it's not to say that adults can't benefit from it or somebody can't make money from having a basketball business, because I certainly make money when I do my basketball camps.

But ultimately what I try to do is I try to make sure that it's focused on what's best for the player, what's best for the kid.

And if you're ultimately doing that, then you're helping the game get better.

You're helping kids to hopefully have an impact, not just on them as basketball players, but as you said, building relationships and things that are going to impact them for the rest of their lives.

That's what's important.

It sounds like that's the philosophy that you're coming from every day, whether you're doing it as a high school coach at Elkhart Lake or whether you're doing it with mammoth basketball.

Well, I try to, I'm, I'm just, you know, I'm almost 51, and I'm at the point in my life after a successful law career and successful law professing career, I, I, I just want to give back and work with kids.

And if I can be in the gym, that that's kind of my happy space.

You know, one of the weird things about being in a small town is, is sometimes the demand for basketball services are necessarily there.

Like, literally, there are some days during the summer I just want to ride my bike around town and like, anyone want to play basketball.

But, you know, that that's kind of weird too, when you think about it.

But yeah, I just want to, I just want to give back and, and help kids reach their full potential.

Because when you have, when you have a competent coach, a committed coach, a committed player, committed and understanding parents, there's some magic that can happen.

You know, magic means different things in different contexts, but when all of those points align, that is just beautiful.

It's gratifying.

There's magic, there's lifelong memories and things that you gain from that.

And that's why I'm doing this.

Winning basketball games is of course fun and you want to be successful and represent your school and community or club program to the best of your ability.

But you know, you also want to do it the right way.

And that doesn't always happen, including at various levels of college basketball.

But that's what I, that's what I try to do on a near daily basis.

I'm not perfect as no human being is perfect, but those are certainly my, my good faith goals and objectives.

It all comes together like you described.

It is magic.

And the game, I can never give back to the game what it's given me.

And that's the line that I go to all the time, that whatever, whatever I can give back, I'm never going to be able to give the game of basketball what, what it's given me.

So before we get out, Mike, I want to ask you a final two part question.

You probably already know what the question is.

It's coming.

But first part is when you look ahead over the next year or two, what do you see as being your biggest challenge?

And then the second part of the question, when you think about what you get to do every day in the game of basketball, what brings you the most joy?

So your biggest challenge and then your biggest joy?

Well, the biggest challenge is, you know, admittedly vague in the sense of just staying successful and competitive at a, at a small public high school and, you know, going with the ebbs and flows that, you know, are sometimes unique to this position.

I've got twin boys, they're both seniors, so my wife and I will be empty nesters next year.

That presents some, some opportunities and some challenges and in both regards, including, you know, what do I do after that, you know, from a basketball perspective, Joy's just seeing kids develop.

So this year, senior class was the first class I began working with when they were in fifth or sixth grade when I moved back to my, my hometown seven, eight years ago.

And you know, a couple kids in particular, just seeing the, the good, honest, ethical young adults they have become, in addition to the, you know, great student athletes they were having former Players come back for your practices and helping you out and, you know, paying it forward, so to speak.

It's, it's, you know, I just kind of feel like when that happens, kind of around Thanksgiving and Christmas time, I just, I just feel like one big happy family there in some respects.

And that gives me a lot of joy.

And just seeing kids reaching their full potential is pretty cool.

That's what it's all about, man.

Having people come back that you coached and be a part of what you're doing now, whether that's basketball or just life, that's really what it's all about.

Before we get out, Mike, I want to give you a chance to share.

How can people connect with you?

Find out more about what you're doing.

Share, email, social media, website, whatever you feel comfortable with.

And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Yeah, I would welcome that tremendously.

So as I said, I, I came to coaching almost as a third career, so I don't have some of the long standing coaching relationships that perhaps many of my peers do.

I would love hearing from coaches, large schools, small schools, colleges, you name it.

Just to share our love of the game.

I can best be reached@resorter basketballmail.com My Mammoth Basketball Club has a webpage and I would encourage particularly young coaches, particularly at small public schools, to reach out because let's face it, you got to have a sounding board.

Sometimes, sometimes during the season you just need to talk with somebody and that's not always easy to do.

Your spouse can only absorb so much during the season.

But what I found too is that some of the things that I was experiencing and some of the struggles that I had as a young coach were the same as other people.

So there's some comfort in knowing that, you know, what you're experiencing is not unique.

So I would highly encourage, you know, people to contact me at, at those venues, at those addresses and you know, let, let's just make each other better.

Mike, cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to join us.

Really appreciate it.

And to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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