Dear, dear listener, hi, this is John Dupuy. I want to ask a favor of you. If you like the podcast A Deep Transformation and you're getting a lot out of it, could you please help us by going to wherever you get your podcast, it's a Spotify or Apple or wherever it is, and write, write a review that would really help us to get this out. We really believe in what we're doing and we're really praying and hoping this is helping people and being part of the solution. So if you could do that, it would be greatly appreciated by Roger, myself and our team. God bless. Thank you. Welcome to part two of this fascinating conversation with our friend and colleague Mark Fischer. In part two, we continue to explore what it is that is threatening our institutions and democracy itself and how to resist tyranny in a way that we become part of the solution and not add to the crisis. Welcome to Deep Transformation, Self, Society, Spirit, Life Enhancing, Paradigm Rattling Conversations with Cutting ed contemplatives and activists with Dr. Roger Walsh and John Dupuy. Well, I just want to say that this attack on our great universities, Columbia, Harvard, is part of the fascist playbook. It's very anti intellectual and that that goes for Stalin and you know, allegedly left wing types of totalitarianism. But they don't want, and I know professors, I have quite a few friends who are actually scared. They watch what they say because if they step over the line, they might get reported, you know, by the students. And that's attacking Harvard. Right. That's probably the most famous symbolic symbol of higher education maybe in the world. And to directly try to put them out of business.

Oh, dei, right.

Anti Semitism with a, with the excuses.

Yeah.

Thank you both for bringing this up because I had not appreciated until now that there was a deeper animus or animosity here that was actually in part at least based on a perception of rigorous intellectual thinking as being a threat to the values of what is essentially a mythic, largely a mythic or mythocentric worldview and value system based on fundamental Christian perspective.

Just as an example, Roger, to bring home your point that you just said, the Smithsonian has had exhibits that have explained how that race is just a social construction and that, you know, that is not genetically based truth. And they are whitewashing this because it doesn't fit into the dogma of the farm, the dogma rhetoric, that there are inherent characteristics that make it so that some folks are more successful than others, that there are inherent characteristics that define people's capabilities. And so instead of the seeing, you know, instead of transcending that there is only one race. Right. That they're actually trying to create a hierarchy of capabilities, which has been debunked by science.

Yeah. Mark, let me ask you about this, because this is very. I've never understood this. Race is purely a social construction. For me, it's up there with. Sex is purely a social construction. It's like there are genetic differences between races.

There are, but that doesn't mean.

Mean there are different capabilities.

Right.

Or capacities.

Gender is a choice. It's not biological.

Well, so, I mean, to an extent. Right, Roger that. There are certainly different genetic aspects of beings, but there's one human race that we are and there aren't these. You know, Gregory Thomas, we were at the conference together, the three of us, at, I believe, the same table where Gregory was kind of talking about how people would try to define African and, you know, African Americans in this way where their hair was different, their bodies were different, their brains were different. There were, you know, early scientists that were trying to show how the brain of the African American was more like a monkey than it was other human beings. And those things are just not the case. And so the rhetoric, I guess I want to clarify that yes, there are genetic differences, but they aren't the kind that define us in terms of our capabilities. They don't make us not one, you know, human race. They're not that kind of defining that they are trying to. To make it out to be, if that makes more sense.

And inbreeding is not a good thing. I think one of the good things about the United States were a bunch of mutts. You know, when you get dogs, they're too pure bred. They just have all these issues and psychological and. And physical issues. And when the breeds are mixed, like with my dear dog, you know, she's a labra pit with a little bulldog, I think, thrown in there. I had her DNA test done and she's just a wonderful dog. And Americans, we're a nation of mutts, you know, and we do exchange and. And it's made us a great nation. We have obviously had some problems getting it together, but to be a mutt is not a bad thing. And if you just have like the Habsburgs in Austrian Empire, they only would breed with other people of their family and the royalty. You couldn't marry a common or anybody below your status. And you look at the later photographs of them, they were all distorted, their facial features and everything, because they just inbred and inbred and inbred. And the Native American tribes invited people from outside to become tribe members, like escaped slaves and white people that wanted to, you know, adopt the Native American style and that they knew intuitively that the tribe would be stronger if they were mixed. Which is like completely contrary to right wing, far right wing doctrine dogma, you know, Right. The chosen people that. Not the chosen people, but the, the superior race.

Wonder if we don't have here an example of the excessive excess leading to reaction. And the attempt to deny racial differences made it very easy for an attack, a swing back in the other direction to emphasize differences. And maybe the reality is all of the above. Everything that you've both said that there are, yes, there's one human race, there are individual races within that. And in some ways it seems almost by the point, because surely our value should be to give everyone of any skin color or gender or whatever equal opportunity and equal chance to be as full and complete a human being as possible.

That's absolutely the point. And I think that all education should be paid for. What a better investment in our country. And if you're hardworking and smart enough to go to Harvard or Columbia, boom, go. That's investment in our country and that's going to help our country be greater as far as you want to go. And if that's not your thing, you know, you can study to be a plumber or electrician or something else, or a farmer. But that, that access has to be open. The opportunity has to be open. And I don't think, I mean, speaking of black people, I mean, there's no, I mean, my heroes, right, and the music I play have, have often been black. And I don't want to make African Americanism or whatever that is go away. And I've heard certain speakers say that I, I value the culture, I value the. What it's given us in spiritually and politically and the sense of justice and the soulfulness that you find so much in, in the black churches that that has spread out through the common culture. That's been incredibly rewarding. And most of my, you know, I'd say about 60, 70% of my musical heroes and I am a musician and I play a lot of music. I play the blues, have all been, you know, African American and they bring a certain taste. Oh, and one time when we were at, we had a conference and we really connected for the first time. I mean, you've seen each other before. I think we're standing in line to eat or something and you told me this just thought about it today. And it really moved me. You said you like Jews. And I went, yeah, I do. You know, and I was like, I don't know why you said what made you say that, but it was like, it's very true. You know, I really do like Jews. And not all Jews are great. And I'm not saying they're the chosen people or they're not the devil spawn. They're just an amazing group of people who I've got so much for. And I just like what interacting with Jews has given me. And I just like them. I mean, I'm a pro Semite, if there's such a word, and you know, there it is.

Well, you know, I think it's to kind of reshape this a little bit. I think it's almost safer to talk about things from a cultural perspective that, you know, just as example, if you want to talk about Jews, you know, I grew up Jewish heritage, but my, my, my dad is an Ashkenazi. My dad, who's asked, was an Ashkenazi side and my mother is a Sephardic, which means it was from Spain, Mediterranean, along those lines. And they're really different cultures, you know, going to family gatherings and etc. And on both sides.

How interesting.

Extraordinary different experiences, really foreign from each other that it just night and day.

And I think you're pointing to something important here, Mark, and that is, you know, this, when we talk broadly in stereotypic ways, we don't really do much service to anyone.

Right? Yeah, yeah. And I think that goes back to this idea of inherent capabilities of a so called race, a certain race. And you know, that's, that's kind of Hitler language that kind of separated.

It's a very slippery slope for sure and has to be treated as with so many of these topics, they need to be treated with great care and compassion and discernment and respect. Respect. Yeah, respect. Yeah. If we could switch, switch topics a little here, and that is one of the things that's been mentioned, but only in passing several times, is what's now being called the authoritarian slide. And Tamak, I wonder if you could speak to this maybe just by starting off by defining authoritarianism and then pointing to some of the movements that you see that have happened in this administration, which really may be moving in that direction.

Yeah, well, you know, authoritarianism is kind of the idea that there is one authority who gets to define what we do, why we do, who we are, who's right, who's wrong. So it's a serious, serious centralized process. Of and where are there are the people that are on the good side and then there are the enemies, and it's kind of they become outlaws. And then you can do what you want to those kinds of people. And so we are seeing some of those kinds of behaviors from the administration. So you can think back just on day one, when he pardoned all of the January 6th folks and they kind of declared war on the people that prosecuted them. And then he went after the law firms where some of our most prestigious law firms, one who did pro bono work on behalf of special counsel Jack Smith, that was looking into Trump's actions, went after that law firm to bar them from federal contracts and demanded that they do work on behalf of what Trump considers appropriate and to not work with those that he doesn't consider appropriate. And these are in direct contravention to the First Amendment, to the United States, and which allows for viewpoint diversity. And also it's in contravention to our due process rights, our procedural due process rights, to not be punished for actions that without due process, which is what he did with his executive order. And it also is in contravention to substantive due process rights, which allows one to live the career and do the work that they want to do. We have that commitment in the Constitution to allow us to live the life that we want to live as long as it's within the rules of the United States. And so, you know, that was a kind of authoritarian attack on our law firms in our country, and some of them caved. And frankly, it's shameful because, you know, lawyers, whether we love them or not, are guardians, as one judge said, of the rule of law. And so when lawyers are afraid to stand up, and really that's the environment that's kind of being created, is that if you do stand up, we're going to sue you, we're going to bring you to court. And if you don't have a lot of money and you aren't a Harvard or a major law firm with a huge history in the United States, and even some of them caved, but a lot of them haven't. And so those are some of the hallmarks of that. It's the idea that I can basically do what I want.

So we saw that again, Judge Mercer, the one that was presided over the felony cases Donald Trump went through, where he was convicted by jury of his peers of 34 felonies, and he refused to sentence him. You know, and I thought he was a pretty good guy. And he just, well, if you're really rich and powerful and you're going to be running for president. You're really above the law. And justice is not blind. It's if you've got connections and power. As he said, I could walk down Main Street, New York City and kill somebody and my followers wouldn't care. And he said that a long time ago, but that's just, it's just shameful. I mean, we have this guy running. One of his main objects is to become president so he wouldn't go to prison. That's kind of a new one, a new precedent in American history. So, yeah, people caving and, you know, it's easy to say, though they're cowards and everything, but when you feel that pressure on yourself, you know, your livelihood, your freedom and also are at risk, you know, how do you handle that? Do you. You put ethics and morality and the love of democracy and freedom and the people of our country first, or is it just I can't do that? That's a question each person has to answer for themselves, their own conscience.

But, well, it's, you know, you're looking in your background, behind you, you have Dr. King and you have Needles who took a stand to not play, you know, in southern venues that it didn't.

Allow blacks to be in there.

And you see the moral authority of Dr. King, who, you know, spoke, as Roger said earlier, at a world centric level, certainly maybe even more of a cosmo centric level of understanding of our interconnection as beings. And literally on the last day that he lived, he foresaw his death soon and, and said it did. Doesn't matter. This is the right move, this is the right act.

He was a dead man walking. This picture is a picture of him and arriving at Memphis airport the day before he was assassinated. And there are three pictures, one of the pictures and there are two other ones that were taken there. But this was, like I said, he knew, he predicted he was going to be killed in his last sermon and he was assassinated the next day. So this is a very, very, very important picture. It's a really interesting story how I came to have it, but this is a one off. There's no other. This was done by the original photographer and it's signed. It's museum stuff. I lent it to the, the African American Museum where I live and they, you know, they use it. I just think it's a incredible photograph. And the guy in the background there, you can't see him interesting enough. He was working for the FBI. So you, you have a Judas figure, you know, right there in the background. And yeah, he was. And he'd already won the Nobel Peace Prize. He could have kicked back and written books and been a great, you know, whatever, but he led from the front because he could do no other. That was right.

That level of moral conviction. And, you know, really, that's what. And you know, that last speech they call is I've Been to the Mountaintop. And those last three minutes are chilling for anyone that chooses to watch it because he does foresee that he's about to die.

And we need Martin now more than ever. It's not like, oh, you know, we don't need that what he was talking about. We need it more than ever.

I would say that we need Martin's level of moral awareness.

Yeah.

Need that level.

Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. Just to emphasize what you're saying, that we can't rely on others to do this for us. It's going to require a lot of us, as you said, John, courage, a lot of us to. To be willing to stand up and. Probably not going to be easy.

No. And it may be dangerous. It may. It may be that. But we've got to contemplate what's at stake because, you know, this is. The assault on democracy that we are experiencing is also kind of an assault on a spiritual understanding of the deeper nature of our existence and our responsibility, our work to repair the earth for all beings. Tikkun olam, the Bodhisattva vow, You know, Jesus's sermons of responsibility to your brother, to the whore, to, you know, all beings, these are foundational to living a meaningful life, a life that's well lived. And so this, to me, you know, the laws, the Declaration of Independence, those ideas are kind of woven within an idea of equality and dignity for all beings. But there's a deeper spiritual understanding of what that really means. And so there is a direct assault on that. There is the idea that there is an other. There is an idea that the others are. Its that they're scum, that they are less worthy. There's an idea that I must just benefit myself. The idea of just drill, baby, drill. At what cost? Without any context in terms of, Roger, what you said earlier about Medicare and Medicaid, serving the poor, serving the needy, serving those, you know, what is our obligation to each other as a people? And I think we, through our spiritual work and understanding, know what that is. It's essential to be there for others. It's essential because they are us and we are them. So much is on the line, beyond democracy.

Yeah. The sacredness of every individual, you know, every individual, like the Hindus, a namaste. You know, I honor the divinity within you. And fascism doesn't go for that.

You know, I really appreciate you bringing in, both of you bringing in this level of reflection on the fundamental values and aspirations that animate at its best, democracy and a care for people. And that, yes, democracy is under threat, but also deeper values. That's what you're both pointing to here, that there are really fundamental values about the worth each human being, our obligation and our call to treat each other with care and love and respect and dignity. And yes, justice needs to be done and justice and mercy in balance.

Yes. No, it's beautifully said. And so, you know, we. There is much work to do and to go back to. There are always partial truths. From an integral perspective. President Trump has made some really important points that the Democratic Party has not related very well to the working class, has not been able to connect on a level with those that aren't in technology, aren't at the elite coasts of the United, the golden coasts and the east coast, and has just been lock, stock and barrel over, you know, Trump's commercial, won the election during football games there with the transgender stuff. And that's not anything against being transgender, but the lock stop nature of not even reflecting on whether it's fair, inherent notions of fairness. Couldn't even talk about the inherent notions of fairness of having transgender athletes that were male competing in female sports. Wouldn't talk about it. And it's so obvious. Right. And it was just easy, easy stuff for him to hit out of the ballpark and make fun of and show how, you know, we're not relating.

Right. You know, otter for fascist takeover and the whole LGBTQ thing, I mean, the left is really aired in that you can't take ideas that are way developmentally beyond what people, normal people in the street and try to shove it down their throats because you so sure it's right, and I have no problem with that. But, you know, working class people, Christians, they're not ready for that. And so when you try to force this stuff down their throats and they're not ready for it, you push them toward this authoritarian thing. And. And if you want me to call you by a different pronoun and that, sure, brother, you know, sister, whatever, it's all good. But don't try to force it down people. And it just made it so easy for us to get to the point where we're about to lose Our democracy.

You know, and, you know, this immigration stuff, it's there. You know, I have friends that live in la and, you know, there are. Jeff Salzman promoted a. A tweet on Twitter or X or whatever it's called now, that showed the complexity of the issue that the Democratic Party ignored for a while, that some of these communities, you know, there's beautiful things that are happening with some of our undocumented folks that are doing incredible work and not committing crimes. And there are also other communities that have been devastated and decimated in the process. And again, it just couldn't be talked about. And we haven't had that. And so, you know, what I see is that we're really some of the left, if we go back to the spiral, reflects some of the kind of postmodern green values, and that there is an opportunity here with all that's at stake, to maybe catapult possibly that the leading edge, instead of being from that postmodern perspective, becomes from a metamodern or integral perspective that actually sees the partial perspectives and is able to make greater sense of them, able to speak to all spectrums of consciousness and relate with beings in ways that are authentic and not alienating. You know, if you can't. If it's said based on your handlers that you can only go on the View and you can't go on Joe Rogan, then we have a problem. And so I think there is this small window of possibility we could maybe move to a higher stage of understanding in terms of at least the leading edge being more populated with folks that see the partial truths, that see the depth, that see the spiritual issues in play. I know Rob Smith from Integral Life has talked about the Great Release and those kinds of possibilities, but it's scary. This is a very scary moment because all we've been describing in many ways are the possibility of true regression. And we're seeing some of that. Courts have held up to kind of smack down all these kind of executive orders that are illegal, because these acts really need to be coming from Congress or their First Amendment violations, et cetera, as I described. But the courts don't enforce the laws, so you need a cooperative executive to do that. And we saw in one of the immigration cases that they took a long time to cooperate before they brought that man back to the United States. I think it was last Sunday that he was finally brought back after the Supreme Court of the United States enrolled months ago that you. That the lower court did the right thing and you need to bring them.

Back and they're trying to prosecute him now because he drove some undocumented immigrants from one workplace to another and they're trying to throw him in jail for that act. One thing I'd like to point, I'd like to get in. I think I've been using ChatGPT for a while and I, you know, I have just keep deepening conversation and yes, it's not perfect, but it's unlike any technology we ever have. So I'd recommend everyone to have AI to summarize the project 2025 to summarize the big beautiful bill. You know, what are the main points you're trying to get through here? What's included? And you can read that, you know, and get down to it and maybe you think, oh this is a great idea, you want to call your senator, please vote for this or you may not. And in that case you have to make your voice known. It's the big beautiful bill went, was voted on at night in the Congress one day nobody had a chance to read a thousand pages, just, you know, rubber stamp Congress. Trump said so. So they did. But now the Senate is starting to have problems because the content is actually starting to come out and we need to educate ourselves and, and fact check everything. And don't take my word for it, you know, if something I say doesn't feel real, you that we have the technology now where we can really look into these things and see, see what we need to know to be, to be citizens, to be human beings, to, to act in a way that's responsible, compassionate, wise and strong.

So part of our response here and coming, I'm looking for what the responses that are called for. Promise all is what you're saying John is education. And you've also said, John, courage. Both of you talk to the necessity of courage at this time and involvement. And there's a lot talked about right now about the studies, comparative studies across societies on the percentage of a population which needs to be deeply involved in a social movement to have effect and the figure the research suggests around at least 3 or 4% of the population has to be actively involved in a movement. So if we are to, it seems like we're called to work towards preserving our democracy, towards preserving the underlying values and I really thank you both for emphasizing those. It's going to take all of us and as we're coming towards the end of our time. But Mark, is there anything else you'd like to add?

Well, to go back to John's point, Jefferson, if you ever go to Monticello, you can look down and you could see the University of Virginia. And he was also created West Point. And Jefferson read Plato and Socrates probably when he was 15 at William and Mary, read it in ancient Greek. But he saw their criticism of democracy. And I think his answer to them, because let's not forget a democracy killed Socrates. But his answer to that was that if we create an educated public, then an educated citizenry, then we'll have folks that are wise enough and to be critical thinkers enough to do the fact checking, to do the research, to contribute to the greater good of our society. And so I want to reemphasize the importance of fact checking, of being a critical thinker. And really, you don't have to go to school to do it. You know, one of my favorite books is a book by Ivan Ilik called Deschooling Society. And it's a great approach where, you know, we can do intergenerational learning outside of a classroom that gives you grades, etc. So, you know, I think that's important. I think for those of us that want to take to the streets or want to protest and speak out, I think there's a way to do it. And we'll go back to John's hero and my hero, and I'm sure, Roger, he's one of yours too, but Dr. King. And in the letter from the Birmingham jail, Dr. King described when he was criticized by the clergyman of Birmingham, Alabama, he was criticized for creating violence in the city. And so he answered it. And part of the way he answered it was by explaining the four steps of nonviolence that his followers followed before they ever participated in a march or a sit in at a restaurant or hotel. And so those four steps include collecting the facts. And so you know, which is a part of critical thinking, you better know what's really going on. Better be open to the possibility that you could be wrong. You better not have an agenda without understanding what are the facts. And you know, as an attorney in the old days when I was a public defender, I remember one of my mentors said to me, you know, facts, when cases mark, you know, you better get your facts straight and be clear with that. So I emphasize that that's one, two, after you get your facts clear, you know, you can enter into negotiation and that's an open hearted way of speaking to those in power that you know, after you gather the facts, that you believe an injustice has been done, that you speak to them and you don't take things personally and you enter with curiosity and love and realization of their dignity and worth as beings. And if that doesn't go well, well, then you take the next step, which he describes basically as self purification. And what he means by self purification is that you enter into contemplation. You see, as Jesus saw on the cross, that you forgive them for they know not what they've done, that you don't take anything personal, that you realize that those actions of others are not about them. And you see the universality, you see the oneness of all beings, and you enter into that state of reality so that if you do have to withstand blows, that you understand that it's not personal and you understand the greater picture of the situation. And after that, you enter into direct action. After you self purified, you've entered that state of awareness, then you take direct action. And so for those of us that are outraged, I just ask that you take these four basic steps for nonviolent action. And we understand the situation, and we understand that, you know, for those of us that are feeling like our democracy is under threat by certain populations, that we see them as our brothers and sisters, that I love you just as much as I love any other being. And so if we can enter that understanding, that state of reality, then I believe that karmically we can contribute to a higher purpose and create the energy necessary to take us to the next steps of the spectrum of consciousness. And that's going to take all of your listeners to come together and beyond with that understanding to achieve what I'm talking about. And so that's. That was what was on my mind. Roger.

Beautiful.

Yeah. Two little practical things I want to throw in there, because I think we're moving into a time of great public protest and there will be people that will try to make it violent and exactly what Trump wants. So he can federalize the National Guard, send in the troops, and he's the strong man saving the country. So if you're at a demonstration, somebody's starting to do something violent, there's two things you can do. First, you could surround him or her so they can't do it, or you can all sit down. So the person that's trying to inspire the violence is, is seen. So that those are two practical ways of making sure that our protests are not manipulated. You know, these radical, crazy, it's violent. You know, he, Trump was saying that people were spitting on the police and the soldiers, you know, and if they spit, we're going to hit. Just trying to build this up. And there's no evidence that ever happened. So he wants this to happen. So we have to be really clear about our non violence and that violence will just hurt the cause and of democracy and freedom and justice that we want. So be wise, you know, wise as serpents, harmless as doves. Jesus said so. Don't get brought into the the violence of the street and destroying property or hurting human beings. Don't do it and have a plan how to stop it if it happens, because it will happen. There will be people that are there to stir things up, provocateurs, and we can't let them take over.

And you said you had a second point, John.

Yeah, just the two practical things. You can either sit down when it starts getting violent or you could surround the person that's doing it and just. No, this is not going to happen.

Okay, good. Thank you. Yeah. Well, this has been an extraordinary, rich and important and sometimes painful conversation, but it feels like one of the conversations that needs to be had this time. Mark, I want to thank you so much for throwing out the key points from the Letter from a Birmingham Jail. I've never read that, but now I really want to. It sounds like a very, very important document and particularly appropriate and called for in our times. And thank you, Mark, for the perspective you bring. It's really beautiful to have someone who's so well informed about the legal issues of our time and yet who holds the whole thing and possible confrontations, etcetera, Within a heart of care and compassion. So thank you very much.

And the ethical and psychological aspects of this whole thing. You do that so well and I'm deeply grateful.

Well, I'm grateful to you both and it's truly an honor to be in your presence and to. To try to contribute a little bit to making this world a little bit more of the same place with a heartfelt awareness all around.

Thank you, Mark.

Yeah. And thank you everybody for being with us. We super appreciate you guys.

And thank you to our manager, Heidi Mitchell and to TechWiz Vanessa Santos, the team that makes this possible.

Thank you very much for being a part of this conversation. We hope that you were moved as we are moved, being part of it ourselves. We'd also like to say that this is being funded by Roger and myself. It comes out of our pockets. So if you would like to help us to mainly to get this podcast out to more people because the bigger audience have which is steadily growing, but the more people we can reach and the more marketing we can do, the more positive effect we can have on the world. So we've done a couple of ways, but we'd like you to buy us a cup of coffee. Very simple. And I do that with podcasts that I support, and I find it's very satisfying. So thank you for your help, thank you for your presence, and thank you for all you are and all you do. We love you.

It.