[00:00:00] I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

[00:00:14]

[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and an explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness.

[00:01:00] The shifts in our thinking. Some of you have been with us on this journey for a while and others have not, so I just want to explain cultural intelligence for those of us for whom it's a new term. We often refer to it as cq, cultural intelligence. It's made up of four areas. There's motivational, the CQ drive, cognitive, the CQ knowledge, metacognitive, the CQ strategy and behavioral, the CQ action.

[00:01:26] And in this podcast we, we talk a bit more about the metacognitive aspect, so we're unpacking the thinking about our thinking. And what it means to expand our understanding through diverse experiences or through reflection with other people with different perspectives. And that's certainly my guest today.

[00:01:47] My guest, is Amel Derragui she is a truly global citizen. A business coach, a speaker, and she's the powerhouse behind the time is now Tandem Nomads and the Cosmopolitan Table. She's been recognized as a top podcast host with a show ranked in the top 2% globally, and she's helped hundreds of solopreneurs, particularly women, build thriving portable businesses and grow visibility through their marketing frameworks. Now Amel was born in India to Algerian parents. She was raised across Serbia, Algeria, and Uganda, and later studied and built her career in France and the USA. She began her career in sales and advertising, but made a bold move to quit the corporate life and build a portable business while moving around the world.

[00:02:41] She's lived in Iran, Austria, New York, and now Bangkok. She launched her first social entrepreneurial venture at 14, and I can just imagine her doing that and she's since gone on to work with organizations like the World Food Program and IMF all while leading a diverse international team across continents.

[00:03:02] We first met at a Families and Global transition conference in Amsterdam. I think it was about 2015. Was it Amel?

[00:03:09] Amel: 2016

[00:03:10] Trisha: Oh, was it?

[00:03:10] Amel: Yes.

[00:03:12] Trisha: I can still remember aspects of that first conversation. It was at morning tea time or lunchtime, and we were bonding over the challenges of helping the globally mobile population.

[00:03:22] So I'm so thrilled to have you here. Amel welcome.

[00:03:26] Amel: Oh, thank you so much, Trisha it's an honor to be here and it's been amazing to be listening to your podcast and I feel even more honored than to be here and share with you this conversation. I hope it'll be help your listeners.

[00:03:37] Trisha: Thank you so much. Well, I'm sure listeners are already thinking about some of the things they want us to talk about. But first, let's start with the standard opening questions. This first one's gonna be particularly difficult for you, I think. What is a culture other than the one you grew up in? And as Amel would be now thinking, which one did I grow up in that you've learned to love and appreciate?

[00:04:00] Amel: I think timeline is often what influences my answer, but it is true that it's hard to choose among all the cultures that I've been influenced by. But I've gotta say, now that I'm in Thailand I have discovered something that I did not see as clearly before, that I really love about the Thai culture.

[00:04:20] I rarely lived in a country or been part of a culture that has strong foundational values at the same time. Be very tolerant and open to others who don't have those same cultural references. I am in awe of how the Thai have managed to keep their culture very strong and still build an environment that's so tolerant.

[00:04:48] It does not mean that they don't have opinions.

[00:04:51] It does not mean that they don't think certain way about certain people. It just means that they'll just let it be ah.

[00:04:58] I, for example, have never lived in any country, including a western country where the lgbtq plus population is like everywhere and open and it's, you don't even see it anymore.

[00:05:11] That's why I love about it.

[00:05:12] It's so much there that I can tell a beautiful story that moved me. I was in the airport and there was a man who, I mean, from our perspective, we would, we call a man, but he looked very old and very traditional Thai man, and then suddenly he turns around and had like a very pink, fleshy lipstick. That was a moment of like, wow, I love this so much. It just made me so emotional because I'm like, and it was just so normal. And yeah, that's something I really appreciate of how they managed to do that. It does come with some I think Like this strong aspect of the culture means also not standing out.

[00:05:51] So for certain things very strongly when we expect it. But I think that's the thing about every culture, right? It has its flip sides like the two sides of a coin. So it also a country politically for instance, that struggles also because of that. Because they don't have that strong stand. It's all about being fluid and nuance on.

[00:06:10] And not taking strong positions. So yeah, it's very interesting, but I really appreciate that a lot. And I wish more of the cultures I have been part of had more of.

[00:06:21] Trisha: There's always an element where when you see another culture, you think, oh, I love that about the culture, you know, and the elements. In different places that you sort of think, I love this about there and I love this about there. And I think for those of us who have the privilege of experiencing different cultures or even different cultural groups, we can sort of, you know, recognize and learn from those things.

[00:06:46] Yeah.

[00:06:47] Amel: definitely.

[00:06:48] Trisha: yeah. That would be a real book. You could write Amel things I've Learned along the way, and you could start it with all the different places you've been.

[00:06:57] Amel: when does it stop the learning? That's the

[00:06:58] Trisha: Yeah. No,

[00:06:59] Amel: I wouldn't be able to finish the book.

[00:07:01] Trisha: well, that is true. That is, well, it could be like a a staged book Every five years you'd have to do an update.

[00:07:08] Amel: thanks for that idea. I'm gonna keep it in mind.

[00:07:12] Trisha: Okay. And now a question about the shift. Can you tell me about a time when you experienced the shift, a moment when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?

[00:07:23] Amel: I actually had two shifts. One is very easy to explain. The other one a bit more complex. The first one is being a TCK, A third culture kid. Somebody who's been raised on multiple levels of. Value systems and cultures. I've always learned to adapt to who, whatever environment I've been living in or whatever group I was sitting with.

[00:07:45] And that has been part of my normal way of being. It's just was natural. It's always been natural until I grew up a little more and started, you know, asking myself now that like what I. What do I stand for? A little bit like the Thai culture, right? What do I stand for? What do I want people to adapt to when it concerns me?

[00:08:06] So that was a fair shift where I had to say, it's great to be able to doubt that. It's really important to know what I stand for if I wanna grow. Yeah. What is my value system? What is my strong pillars that I don't wanna negotiate on? And that had. I had to do some work on that because that I had some strong pillars, but but regarding living in a society, those were more fluid and I had to define those so that I could be in alignment.

[00:08:33] So that was the first big shift that I had, I would say in my thirties. But the recent one has been one that I'm still processing. So forgive me if I'm not very clear about it or very cq about it being very, as much as I can be mindful, but for me it's always been important to use my voice and my life and my business as a way to stand for what's for me morally.

[00:08:58] Right. And stand out and speak up for those who cannot speak. That has always been part of my life since the age of 14. and I've used my podcast and my business to speak up, for example, for the Black Lives Matter movement, for the LGBTQ plus movement. When the war broke in Ukraine.

[00:09:15] I've always brought my community together to do something about it. When October 7th happened, of course the first reaction was. Being terror, terrified. But what has happened to these innocent people who were killed and attacked and taken hostages, but very quickly being in Austria, I didn't know yet what was happening in the world, but the narrative has been really supporting the killing of people in Gaza.

[00:09:40] And for me that was really shocking. And we know what's happening now in Gaza. I mean, it's not anymore a matter of discussion. I hope that it's pretty clear now that we can't discuss this anymore, that it's clearly a genocide going on there. But at a time, because I had so much experience in the Middle East, I knew exactly what's going on and I was trying to.

[00:09:59] Discuss with people around me, we have to do something about that even within my audience, and then suddenly came the complexity of this narrative. I understand being careful because we don't wanna, we wanna make sure to not. Have any hatred speech against the Jewish people and be very careful of any antisemitic statements, but at the same time stand for defending innocent people who are dying.

[00:10:22] And that was very difficult balance, I understand for a lot of people. But at some point, for me, it was very clear that we needed to stand against a state, not a religion, and not people, and speak up against it and stop what's happening. And I felt extremely lonely. That was the first time I felt extremely lonely.

[00:10:43] And what was the real shift for me was suddenly people telling me, oh, it's okay if you feel that way so strongly about it because of who you belong to, because of my origins.

[00:10:54] And that was for me, what I realized, the importance and the weight that allyship, what allyship means. For the first time, I was not credible anymore in my, in using my voice to speak for those who could have one because I was associated with being a Muslim and therefore not being, being biased um, towards this conversation.

[00:11:18] And for me it was really not, it was being about being an ally, but I realise I cannot be an ally if people are associating me, identifying me as somebody who belongs to this society, which I don't feel I do. To be honest with you. If I went to Palestine, I don't think I would feel home. It just doesn't fit with who I am.

[00:11:36] Thought I was being an ally, but the whole world around me was telling me, you're not being an ally. You're being biased. And that's when I understood the power of allyship and how it's important for those who don't belong to a certain group to speak up for those who belong because suddenly you're more credible. I hope I, I can does that sound clear? The shift that I had about that the word allyship.

[00:11:58] Trisha: Yeah and sort of recognizing how people saw you. Not necessarily as a thinker and someone with a heart, but someone who was one of them who would automatically belong and think that way rather than having carefully thought through things and more being motivated by almost a moral decision.

[00:12:18] And your values, as you said before, is recognizing the core of who you are. Yeah. I think the allyship is really important in recognizing, you know, where the right and wrong is and where we draw a line is really important and I appreciate your shift and completely understand it. Yeah.

[00:12:39] Amel: I know that I will become more of an ally than ever before because of that, because I know what it is now to be part of a. Group, although I don't identify as that, but people did it for me. I know now even more what it feels like to not be credible for speaking up. And so I'll even be more of an ally than ever before.

[00:12:59] For those who are different than me,

[00:13:02] we can't fight for every cause. We're human beings with limited bandwidth, but we need to choose very carefully our battles and knowing that we have power in speaking up. For groups that we are not part of

[00:13:12] Trisha: Thank you. Yeah, it feels a little incongruous to jump from the deep emotional points to the career points that we had on our next questions. But I think some people in the audience will be curious about that because you have revealed so much of the core of you now and they're probably thinking, yeah, but how do you do your business?

[00:13:35] And, you know, how did you get into that? So we'll go back to those things and we'll cover some of those and we will come back to some of the belonging and the questions around some of the moral aspects as well. But you started in advertising and sales and, even, which I had not been aware of this before, but you'd done door to door encyclopedia sales in Utah, which I cannot imagine being an easy job.

[00:13:59] And then you were an account manager in some very hope, high profile advertising agencies. What sparked your decision to walk away from a successful corporate career to pursue your own business?

[00:14:11] Amel: I think I've always been entrepreneurial no matter what. Even I would say, even as being an employee, I was an entrepr, an entrepreneur. 'cause I would always take initiatives. Sometimes it, it was welcome, sometimes not. But yeah, I say it was a leap of faith and a leap of love. I traveled to Iran and on holidays, met my husband.

[00:14:30] I was really adamant about not giving up my job. We made some negotiations and discussions, and I would say gently that I was tricked into it. Where we made a deal that the first one who would find a job for the other one with the other one would move. But my husband has been very clever at luring me into, Hey, you know, you always wanted to start a business.

[00:14:53] You know, I can introduce you to some people. Maybe you can figure out if that would work. And I did go in an excursion and Tehran to figure out if there is something there. And I was very much attracted to all the impact I could do there with my business. And so, yeah, so then I said, okay, let's do it.

[00:15:10] Trisha: And that was the beginning. Yeah.

[00:15:12] Amel: Yeah.

[00:15:13] Trisha: Was at that point. Was that with women?

[00:15:16] Amel: No. I had actually started my business as a corporate consultant for corporate companies. I've always, even as an employee, focus, marketing strategies on impact. Like how can we use our budget as a, in marketing to not only gain visibility, but also make a difference in our communities.

[00:15:31] So, it's always been my thing, but I made it more of a. Of a focus as a business

[00:15:38] Trisha: the social impact

[00:15:39] Amel: the social impact of marketing and visibility, basically. And yeah, that's what I was doing for corporate companies in pharmaceuticals, cosmetics and other things. And I've been doing that for six years. The only things that is, soon as I arrived in Iran I had, I'm not gonna go through all the details. It will be another whole episode of what happened in Iran once I was there with all the sanctions and the money transactions and all the actual administrative and tax implications of what it means to have a business there as a foreigner.

[00:16:06] But very quickly, I realized I needed to make my business portable. I could not depend on the Iranian market, although within six months I have exploded, like within six months there my business had. Amazing traction. But I realized it was not sustainable. So I became obsessed about how to make my business location independent.

[00:16:24] And that was in 2010, 11. Before, you know, COVID, before all of this was normal. So I was actually a beta tester of Zoom. I was testing. Every single technology that was out there. And I was also very much obsessed about business models, how can business models function without the location attachments and taxation, all of that.

[00:16:45] So I've been very obsessed about that and continue to build my business globally and location independent. And six years later I realized that, I mean, along those years there were so many women around me who had also given up their career spouses of expats. And to be honest with you, I've been. Quite shocked and hurt by seeing some of the situations of where these women were in very unhealthy marriages.

[00:17:12] Not leaving or actually having a partner who passed away and then ended up in huge financial vulnerability. And that was, for me, not acceptable, that we can have so much privileges and from a day to another basically it shows that we're actually vulnerable even in the midst of the privilege of expat life.

[00:17:30] Trisha: I think that might have been what we bonded over with our concern for expat partners in Yeah. When we first met.

[00:17:38] Amel: I remember that conversation. The passion. It was, yeah, so, so that's how I started my podcast to talk about how to build a portable business for exp expert spouses. And it all started from the podcast and a year later. I realized I cannot keep doing both. I stopped the corporate consulting and developed my online platform to support expat spouces build their portable businesses.

[00:18:00] And then COVID came, and then the need has expanded beyond that niche. And that's how I ended up you know, really rebranding from Tandem Nomads to the time is now. And I really work with solo entrepreneurs and small business owners who are impact driven, mission driven, and want to go from invisible to in demand.

[00:18:19] Trisha: And so when. Just thinking about that, you know, that population that we bonded over and the women, you majority women, there were occasionally some male expat partners. And there are increasingly, because as we said, that was almost 10 years ago. So when we think about those women who are trying to start a business while they're in the middle of a you know, a global shift or they know they're going to be mobile for the next, what, however many years, how do you help them shift the barriers that they see in front of them?

[00:18:53] Amel: When they do see them.

[00:18:57] 'cause sometimes they're hesitant. They don't take the leap, but they don't really see why. That was. The first step is really to understand why we're not doing it when we want to. 'cause that's the one thing that I realized a lot of them think about it, but don't take the leap. So understanding what are our barriers?

[00:19:13] I think that's a very good point. So for me, there's three core, core things that I've started really beginning working on is number one confidence. Which means debunking all the limiting beliefs we have about ourselves. And also of the, some of the mindset barriers we have about business, about, you know, how about work, about visibility, about all of that.

[00:19:38] So that's the first part, developing the confidence that we can do it, but also the confidence that if we fail at it, it will be okay. So what.

[00:19:47] Very often, honestly, starting a portable business is not that expensive. You have nothing to lose, and that's when I'm like, you have absolutely nothing to lose besides few hours of work that you can still, even then as a portable business, have the freedom to arrange as you want.

[00:20:04] So, that's number one, confidence. The second one is strategy. Making sure that we have clarity and a strong strategy and consistency I have these three pillars in my business that I call clarity, consistency, conversion. So this is all part of the strategy for me. This is really important. That's what I help them work on, because if you don't have a clear strategy, it's hard to get any traction.

[00:20:26] And it's also about not losing ourselves in this whole thing, right? Overwhelm and lack of clarity creates burnout. And we don't wanna start a business to burnout. We wanna start a business to have freedom. So that's the second pillar. And then the third one that's so important and that I talked about so much is support system. Women very often carry not only the load of the family, even in modern societies well now and even more expat. It's interesting how in the expat community things have gone almost like backwards in time, where suddenly the, or very often the women is the one taking care of everything and carrying the whole mental load of the family and the move.

[00:21:08] And that's a full-time job to move a family. So if we don't have a support system, and that's the hardest thing to build on the move, but what I mean, support system, I also mean having the hard conversations at home. Where we actually set boundaries and ask for what we need. And and I can just tell a quick story for instance, that I didn't even realize I had, I thought I was an empowered woman.

[00:21:30] I really thought, I was like, yeah, I got this. And I remember when I had these two businesses and my business and we were in New York, I was really struggling at the beginning financially. I'm like, why is this not working? So I took my timeline. I look at my schedule, I'm like, and then I had a huge aha moment realizing, oh my God.

[00:21:49] I'm spending more than half of my time taking care of things that could be shared. For example, why would I cancel my meetings online? Because for example, because the plumber has to come, that was, those small things have an impact on a business, and I remember getting really upset about it. And then I talked about my husband.

[00:22:10] I said, but why don't you just ask me? Then I arrange my schedule and I come home when this guy, you know, I'm like, wow, I just assumed that I had to carry all of this alone. So very important. Since then, when we have a plumber who comes from home, we don't assume because I work from home that I should be available.

[00:22:27] That's another thing. So, yeah. I hope I answer your question. For me, these are the three important elements that are so important for women to be able to rise above the glass ceiling.

[00:22:36] Trisha: Yeah. And they quite possibly haven't really thought things through at all. So yes I'm thinking about you as that kid in Uganda. And I'd love to. To know, you know, what you did there and how it sort of started your social impact perspective.

[00:22:52] Amel: So that's where I think my cultural kind of awareness has started from childhood for the simple reason that I have been exposed, thankfully to many cultures, but also I have spent the critical years of my life in countries in political conflict and war. I have been in Algeria during the extermination of the whole population by terrorists.

[00:23:16] We lost about between 200,000, 500,000 people in Algeria during that time due to terrorism. Then we went to, we were in Serbia before, during the war and then we ended up in Uganda. And by the time I was in Uganda, it was during the genocide that was going on, you know, in Rwanda. And a lot of the kids, the refugees were in my school. And so I was very much in contact with what was happening in the neighboring countries, but also in my own school. And I arrived in this school thinking in international school, you would think that in an international school you would have suddenly what the ideal world would be like. Like people from different countries, different origins, different religions and ethnicities coming together and seeing beyond that because suddenly, but all was happening during school breaks were fights above.

[00:24:11] On topics related to races race. Oh, you're that, you're this, you're that you know, either you're black, you're white, or you're nothing because you're not. It's, it was just so shocking to me to see kids fighting over the races. And if it happened to have also people from different African ethnicities, it will also be another thing.

[00:24:30] And I remember going to the principal and say, Hey, that was like my first or second week. I don't remember, but I was like, you need to do something about this. And she was like, oh. If you care about it, why don't you do something about it? I'm like, I was so shocked. But at the same time I think that's when my competitiveness with it, with myself started.

[00:24:50] I'm like, you know what? Let me get back to you. And that's when I was thinking, and I wonder what you think about this as a CQ expert, because I don't know if there's anything to it here, but I asked myself this question, what does bring people together, especially kids? 'cause we were kids and I was maybe a bit cynical.

[00:25:10] I was thinking money, food, and party. I was like, these are the three things that I can see can bring people together. Not being nice, not being cool, not right. And we had a problem in this school, which was the fact that there was no canteen, no restaurant for lunch. The parents were always complaining that kids had either to eat sandwiches all week or have to be taken home.

[00:25:36] So I was like, let's fix that problem. But creating a school mini canteen where the kids are in charge.

[00:25:42] Trisha: Okay.

[00:25:44] Amel: And to fund this, we needed to create parties and to sell tickets. And that's when I started to discover the power of marketing that for me, meant how to sell ideas. So I, I, I, the, I'm gonna shorten the story because it was a journey to get there, but at the end of the day, this project was sponsored by Coca-Cola.

[00:26:06] By ABB, which is the biggest electrical company at the time in Africa. And the biggest DJ of the city was actually playing for us for free.

[00:26:14] Trisha: Wow.

[00:26:16] Amel: And for me that was one rule to those fundraising events, was to actually not cater the food. We had to do the food. 'cause what I realized, racism has a lot to do with touching.

[00:26:27] Each other, but also touching each other's food. And I needed people to be okay as long as you wash your hands, of course, to share the food, right? So I remember us saying, we're not gonna get catering. We're all gonna make the food together. And for me, the most beautiful moment that's still. Touches me to this day was to see all those kids that were fighting, sitting on this long table, and we created the chain.

[00:26:51] The first person was buting the bread, the second one, putting the lettuce, the third of cheese, et cetera, and then, and having all these kids sitting around the table holding the same food, preparing the same food together for the party. And that was for me more than anything else, the one the major victory. So that's how it all started for me to see how business entrepreneurship and marketing can actually make a difference.

[00:27:14] Trisha: Yeah. That's amazing. I have so many questions. and, and most of All, like another friend of ours, I'm wishing I could go to your parents, but I know your dad has passed. And say how did you make her, how did you raise her to be like that? But yeah. I think. If we can think about, you know, there are some factors in our growth and development that shape us in certain ways and therefore that shape, as we said before, how we think and what shifts we make.

[00:27:44] And so first of all, your compassion. So what you showed there was real compassion for people and also the ability to identify the problem. Also, the ability to jump to potential things that might pull people together. I mean, the compassion. I'm guessing might've developed from living in those environments that you spoke about in those formative years and in, in Algeria and Serbia and then Uganda.

[00:28:11] I mean, it was conflict. So did growing up in those environments where you were probably losing people you knew and loved, did that impact, did that shape that compassion?

[00:28:24] Amel: You know, today I say compassion, but I think the real value behind all of this is justice.

[00:28:32] Compassion is what's needed for justice to exist.

[00:28:36] But my fight, what I was seeking for was a sentiment of justice that I still look for, where fairness fairness. And what I've realized very young is how society and the world is not fair.

[00:28:50] And. So that's basically what I had realized. And also at the time, and this is why I think I had my own little crisis with Gaza, is that at the time I thought that, I told myself as an adult, I would never let such injustices keep going.

[00:29:07] And this is why I went to the Principal because I consider that you adults are responsible for this.

[00:29:12] But even by her answer, it shows that I

[00:29:15] Trisha: She de delegated it

[00:29:17] Amel: Yeah. Which was the best thing she could have done for me. Right. But the, but at the same time, so yeah, for me the value is justice, like seeing the injustices and also the narratives. Because one of the things I learned very early on is how the media, although at the time the media was still okay compared to today, but how the media was portraying what was going on in Algeria as a civil war, for example, for me, was, unbelievably shocking. And the lack of education that people had over what was going on. But still, they liked education, but then they had full of a lot of opinions.

[00:29:50] And I went to France after that, you know, when I was 16 after Uganda, and I had a lot of, I've been, yeah, a lot of prejudice being Algerian in France and being treated as savage people and just because it has such little education what was going on, but a lot of opinions.

[00:30:06] Trisha: I think sometimes it's really hard because that education, I mean, it's not just facts. Is it because we see the facts through. The lenses of our tribalism usually. You spoke before about how you weren't seeing Gaza through a tribal lens until other people put that on you. But often like for example, growing up in New Zealand, I grew up seeing history one way and for example, you know, there, there were a series of wars in New Zealand and in my history teaching they were called the Maori Wars. And so it's very clear then who's responsible for them because that's the way you're teaching it Now they're taught as the New Zealand Wars.

[00:30:51] And so you can see that it's not just one side causing the problem because of the way it's taught. So growing up I didn't have the perspective taking ability to see beyond what was taught to me. And so those people in France may, that you were encountering at the age of 16 may not have had that perspective taking ability to see beyond.

[00:31:12] What they're being taught and the narratives as you say, which is media, but it's also what parents are saying to their children at home. And so it's quite hard. You had an amazing ability to think beyond a standard prejudice or ways of operating which I think is brilliant.

[00:31:32] I think about all the things you, you've carried with you, with the goal to sort of simply to do good to help the people who need help. And I think, you know, sometimes do, does it feel like this is a heavy burden to carry? You know, does it feel like you need to hold yourself carefully in sometimes in some situations?

[00:31:54] Amel: It is a such a big question. I could, I don't know how to unpack this one because this is, you really put the finger on the biggest thing I had to work on in the past months. This load. I wanna start with the simple. Thing conclusion kind of is I had to work on somehow a little bit of my ego in a way thinking that who am I to think that I should be responsible?

[00:32:20] Honestly, some of my friends who would tell me that, like, who do you think you are? That you have to be responsible for all of this? Is that interesting? I got chills that just, you know, remembering that sentence. Those said much more gently, but that's how I think that they meant it. I do think that I should be a bit more considerate though towards the fact that I don't have the power to fix all the problems I would like to fix.

[00:32:44] But at the same time, I had always had this innate thing. I cannot stand when people tell me there's nothing we can do. It makes me crazy. And when. When Gaza started being attacked the way it is attacked I couldn't, I had some vivid conversations where people said, but there's nothing you can do.

[00:33:02] I'm like, no. There's always something we can do. Even at the smallest level, I'm not saying I can change the whole thing, but if I can just move one little bit, I wanna do it. Even if I go demonstrate and there's only 30 people will at least have done something and hopefully those 30 people will grow to 40, 50 hundreds.

[00:33:23] And now it's the case. But it took two years, unfortunately, for people to move. But but I do think it's important to at least try to figure out what we can do. But it starts by knowing why we are doing that. Why are we moved? Why are, and that's the work I had to do.

[00:33:37] And I wouldn't have been able to be on this episode with you if I hadn't done the work.

[00:33:42] It wouldn't have been fair to our listeners because now I know why it triggered me so much. Now I can take action in a more responsible way that doesn't trigger my health, doesn't affect my mental health and my physical health, which it did at the time. Understanding our big why is everything behind, why, how we react to things and what we do about it.

[00:34:04] Trisha: And knowing how justice sits in your heart and knowing how for you, there are some things that are core that can't be moved, then, you know, this is something you need to step into. Yeah. I had a recent episode of the podcast and I spoke about expanding our moral circles. As a way to potentially reduce tribalism. And it's not my idea, it comes from Peter Singer. It was something that Martin Seligman raised at the Positive Psychology Conference. And so when I thought about those moral circles as I dived into the idea after the conference thinking, you know, what did he mean and how can this impact on us?

[00:34:46] I thought I was imagining people belonging to some different moral circles. You know, I can sometimes connect with people about being a mother. Recently I've been connecting with people about being a grandmother. You know, and when you say to people that you've recently become a grandmother they will immediately tell you if they are and they'll want to show you pictures and things like that.

[00:35:06] And sometimes I think about those sorts of moral circles because then it's easy to feel like we care about other people who are similar to us. And I'm not sure if that's what Peter Singer was really thinking about as he thought about his moral circles. I think he was originally thinking about the sort of racial and ethnic ones that we are talking about, but in asking us to expand them, that was one of the ways that I thought of as expanding, as seeing other people for what we stand in the same circle with, which might be about as women experiencing challenge because we are globally mobile.

[00:35:41] Or it might be, you know, many different. Aspects. So, you know, if you're thinking about expanding moral circles as a way to potentially reduce tribalism, I think about you and I think you are in so many different circles, you know, different religious circles, language circles, nationalities, ethnic backgrounds, and now you're working with these women all around the world, and I'm just, I'm feeling this sense of you probably having.

[00:36:10] A sense almost of sitting above so many of these circles. What do you think, how does your experience fit with that idea about expanding the moral circles?

[00:36:20] Amel: I think it's a really hard thing to do to expand our moral circle as a human being because it's part of our DNA to actually connect with at least one thing in common. It's hard as a human being to connect with another person if you have nothing in common. And I think just having that awareness that we tend to want to find something in common, to actually have compassion towards another human is just being aware of it can already make a difference, I think.

[00:36:50] Not needing to have something in common and still have the respect, and I wanna use the word love for the other. Because I think pure love is what's needed to create a more peaceful world. And that's a hard one. But I. Interestingly though, although I'm saying that I feel like I'm contradicting myself a little bit here because I have my own experience with my father-in-law who love, I mean, and it's a cultural marriage with an Austrian, and my father-in-law is the most amazing father-in-law I could have hoped for.

[00:37:26] I never felt, I'd never thought that a father-in-law can love his daughter-in-law. So. Deeply and he would bake for me gluten-free cake 'cause I'm intolerant. And he would always show me the most beautiful gestures. And I've never saw, had so many gestures of love than from him. But when it becomes to my origins and my religion, it's rough.

[00:37:50] So although he loves me, although we are in the same circle because we share the same person, we love his son. It did not make him move one bit towards not seeing foreigners as a threat and Islam as a threat.

[00:38:07] So as much as I wanna say love is important, I think it's, it already helps at least not kill each other, jump on each other throats and fight violently over it.

[00:38:18] But I do think that it, you need to want it. You need to want that world where we all live together. And honestly, and I feel like some of us are still in that DNA tribal state of the amygdala that we cannot see past the threat of not understanding another culture and another value system than ours.

[00:38:47] And even if we are exposed to it.

[00:38:50] Trisha: That is hard, isn't it? Because you'd, I mean, as a, like, as I think about the theory behind the way people relate and about cultural intelligence, then I think if you're able to. Step above and to see some of your biases. You know, if you, if you already have something in common and something that draws you from a CQ drive perspective like your father-in-law would have in terms of his love for you, and then if he could see the good things about you, then why can't he see the bias?

[00:39:22] That's, it's really difficult. Yeah.

[00:39:24] Amel: Because he considers I'm the biased one.

[00:39:27] Trisha: Right.

[00:39:28] Amel: And I mean, how can I dispute that? I mean, for him, I'm the biased one that I don't see the threat that my religion brings to this world

[00:39:37] literally would say it. And I'm like, wow, that's a tough one to swallow. Honestly I'm, I can talk about it now without being angry, but it took me a while.

[00:39:46] Trisha: So you've often probably had to work through your responses to him and had to think about, remind yourself of your love for him in dealing with him.

[00:39:57] Amel: Yeah, and choosing my battle.

[00:39:59] I'm just not gonna fight this one.

[00:40:02] The only problem for me is that he gets the vote. I mean it, I'm laughing, but that's the only reason why I'm like, you know, you've got a responsibility here for the vote you choose to make. That's the only one that, that for me is a little bit difficult.

[00:40:16] But again, going back to choosing our battle, this is one that I cannot win. And I'm not gonna try. I tried with every single CQA, sharing my food, sharing my history, sharing my culture but it's not.

[00:40:28] It's. You need to want that world where we live in a place from, with different tribes. And some people care about their tribes, they want their churches, they want, they don't want minerals.

[00:40:40] Like they don't want mosques around their city. And that's, for example, I don't want a mosque in my city. That's it. And how can we, that's what he wants.

[00:40:50] Trisha: I guess one of the things that encourages me having. Asked a number of different people about their moments of shift now is that some people's moments of shift have come much later in life. And they're quite basic shifts. So they've sort of, you know, I was thinking about are there stages of shift?

[00:41:07] And the first one is sometimes even just recognizing that the difference exists around you and that everybody doesn't think the same. And then there is recognizing that there is good on both sides of difference, you know, and that good people can be quite different to you. And then recognizing that the difference itself is not necessarily.

[00:41:27] A threat or a problem, but it's quite interesting to see that some people will make a shift and, you know, it's happened at different stages of life for different people. So it's, I would have hope that it's never too late and have hope that maybe sometimes it's something outside that might trigger it.

[00:41:47] Who knows? We can keep hoping that might happen.

[00:41:51] Amel: Yeah, I think it's honestly, I also look at this at the meta level where we need to also see things on a cyclic. We live in a world that functions in cycles and the pendulum phenomenon. And I do think that we're on the other end of the spectrum of the pendulum, and hopefully we'll just come back because our world is going through major identity, but also technological shifts there are redefining what humanity is.

[00:42:16] And that's where I am so grateful that I am surrounded and I know that so many people like you are doing the work today to help people understand the human being. Because we need to understand who we are as human beings today, to know how to show up in the midst of all the major societal shifts we're gonna go through.

[00:42:33] This is just the beginning. And it's interesting. I don't know if you notice, but now we hear a lot and lot talk about humans.

[00:42:40] The word humans is gonna become a thing. And I'm hoping that we will see each other as humans versus AI and robots, you know,

[00:42:49] Trisha: I know. I've struggled a little bit with it Amel because I am originally, you know, from when I first started, working in what is now hr. I was in the personnel area, so that's how far back I go. Then it became HR and now, so you know, it was the director of personnel, then it's the director of hr.

[00:43:10] Now it's quite often the people director. And so we have switched from the human resources perspective to the people. And now we're switching back to the human because we are contrasting the human with the non-human. So yes. I like it for its simplicity. Human first is, you know, the way that I will be talking about ai.

[00:43:29] But yeah I personally preferred the people, but

[00:43:33] Amel: yeah.

[00:43:33] Interesting. But I do think we will come to a point where things will settle, but we need people like you, and this is why I'm passionate. I don't have the skills. I told you so many times, know when you invited me to come to school. I'm like, I'm not sure I'm the right person to, because I don't have the expertise you have.

[00:43:49] And we need more and more people that help us and analyze and understand our. Behavioral patterns towards change, towards other people, towards challenges. And I think yeah, that's why I love what I do actually, is to empower people who have the skills I don't have.

[00:44:06] Trisha: I think you've been, you do, and you also do help unpack people's thinking. I know that much and I know many people that you've had a significant impact on and helped them to step outside their lack of confidence, to gain the confidence and to see a pathway where previously before they couldn't.

[00:44:23] So I do think you're actually quite good at sort of hopping into people's thinking about their thinking a little bit.

[00:44:29] Amel: Thank you. I appreciate that.

[00:44:31] Trisha: I want to acknowledge the work that you've done with the Cosmopolitan table. And I want to know a little bit about what's next for you just as we wrap up. So you've worked to create a bit of a circle of globally minded women, so tell us a little bit about that.

[00:44:45] Amel: So it's a living, it's a living experience that's still shaping up. So it's very fresh in a way. But this all started with me wanting to connect with globally minded women in Vienna and Austria. I found a lot of places to, to connect with women, but there's a thing talking about tribalism. We are all seeking for tribing and my tribe are people who actually have more than one.

[00:45:08] So, so I started with that. I was just wanting to connect the amazing globally minded women I've met. So I brought them to a dinner. And the other influence was also to discover in the United States, the power of cigar clubs for men. I got the chance to actually be invited to a couple, I don't know how, but it met, I made it through the barrier of being a woman.

[00:45:30] And I was blown away by how they supported each other. In business, even if there were competitors actually, and they had a very, you know, healthy competition going on. And I said, why don't we do that? You know, why don't we have that as women entrepreneurs? Like, and why do men have that? We don't.

[00:45:50] And basically that was the inspiration of it. Let to create a club where women come together to support each other. Exchange net networks, exchange tips, refer each other. But beyond that, it has become a family.

[00:46:03] Where beyond work. I, for example, got sick once and it was amazing to see this woman. It just became a village where these women just took turns to support me 'cause I was alone and I will never forget that.

[00:46:16] So it is a family, it is a group of amazing women entrepreneurs who want to grow. But we are learning a lot about how to. How to grow a community in a mindful way without losing our identity. And that's one is a also because even being a globally minded person is still not even enough to actually create consensus and harmony

[00:46:38] and making sure everybody feels seen and heard.

[00:46:41] And that's what we're learning. We realize there were a couple incidents are not the word, but a couple times where we could have showed up more mindfully and we're learning now how to integrate in our organization. The mindfulness of making sure everybody feels seen and heard. Seen and heard, while still being very clear about the direction we're going, even if we don't agree.

[00:47:02] It's been a learning journey. That's still, I'm still figuring that out. But one of the things we implemented is, for example, we are implementing right now is a pulse checker in the organization. Somebody who, like on different tables, 'cause it functions in many different tables, that we always have a pulse checker to make sure that we're.

[00:47:19] Making sure that our members are not being forgotten.

[00:47:22] Trisha: That's lovely. Yeah. I quite like the role of a pulse checker, I think. Yeah.

[00:47:29] Amel: Yeah, I think we're working on it. It's still, we're testing it. It's the beginning of a process. We had to rethink the leadership of this organization now. But I'm loving the whole process. I'm learning so much about it. Let's see what it goes. Maybe we can do another episode about that. And right now it's very fresh.

[00:47:45] But for me it's all going back to your point about finding our moral circle. This is the moral circle about women empowerment, and that's the through entrepreneurship and leadership and making sure that we actually lift each other up.

[00:47:58] Trisha: I love that. So if people want to connect with you to find out more about that or to get your advice on their business idea, how can they connect with you best?

[00:48:09] Amel: The best way to find me is to go to thetimeisnow.biz. That's the easy one. And in your show notes, maybe we can put on some information but the time is now biz, it's the place where you find my website, my podcast, and all my all the different ways to find me on social media. Well, if you type my name Amel Derragui on Google, you also find all the ways you can find and connect with me.

[00:48:34] Trisha: We'll have those links in the show notes for sure. And Amel, what advice would you give to someone who wants to follow in your footsteps and bring about meaningful change?

[00:48:46] Amel: I feel like it's a big thing to follow my, and I would, I don't know if I want people to follow my footsteps, but rather follow their own steps.

[00:48:53] Trisha: True. Yes.

[00:48:55] Amel: So that's basically it. My advice is make sure that you live your own footprint by knowing what you really truly care about and just. Just do something about it.

[00:49:04] Don't linger. I always say to my team, to my friends, to my clients, start first. Perfect. Later. Start somewhere and you figure out how to perfect it.

[00:49:14] Trisha: And as you look at your life and the women you've worked with, the communities you've built and the path ahead, are you hoping for?

[00:49:22] Amel: I have so many hopes, but right now, definitely a more peaceful world.

[00:49:27] For sure and more understanding and more than ever, hopefully CQ will not be just an intellectual thing or a geek thing, but rather a normal way of being. If we could all integrate that in our day-to-day life without feeling that it's something just for the smart people I think it'll make a big difference.

[00:49:48] Trisha: I think so too. Thank you so much, Amel, for sharing your journey and your stories and your ongoing mission to uplift everyone.

[00:49:56] Amel: Thank you.

[00:49:57] Trisha: It's such a lovely story of turning challenges into opportunities and really. Building bridges through business and purpose. I think that's it's core there as well.

[00:50:07] Thank you to our listeners. I hope that this has been a positive, uplifting episode for you. So please subscribe or follow or whatever is the button on your app. And keep joining with us as we come together to see things differently and to hear more about the shift.

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