This series deals with themes of violence, loss of life, grief, trauma and mental health. The content may not be suitable for younger listeners. Kia ora, I'm Alex Mason.

And I'm Mitchell Alexander. Welcome to Season One of Unclassified, a series where we bring you firsthand tales from those who served during New Zealand's 20 year deployment to Afghanistan.

Today, we're joined by Colonel Sean Bolton to hear about what life was like in Afghanistan as a member of New Zealand's special forces and the SAS. We're going to go behind the scenes of the role on the ground and talk about the emotions of war, critical decision making, and what it takes to be a member of the SAS. Colonel Sean Bolton is currently the Special Operations Component Commander for the New Zealand Defence Force. Inspired by his First 15 rugby coach at high school, who had served in the Vietnam War, Sean joined the Army in 1998, with the goal of joining the SAS. Eventually, he went through the grueling selection process and became a member of the unit.

During his almost 20 years with special forces, Sean deployed to Afghanistan numerous times. He first deployed to the country in 2007 and his final deployment there was in 2013. During that time, he was involved in combat, leading teams that saved lives, he lost friends and colleagues along the way. And Sean also had to make crucial calls as he rose through the ranks. Today, Sean is responsible for all Special Forces within the New Zealand Defence Force.

Thank you for joining us today, Sean. The work of the SAS is shrouded in secrecy and many people have very little knowledge of the mahi that you do. Can you take us back to a specific moment in Afghanistan, when you perhaps feared for the outcome of that situation and describe how you dealt with that?

It's a pleasure to be here and to be able to talk a little about what we do and the people that I've worked with and led over the years. Afghanistan was quite a key part of our history and throughout the time of the SAS there, the jobs that we did evolved, the types of missions we undertook were quite broad, and the impact of those, that it had on our people, will be enduring. So throughout my time of being the leader, but there's been times where I haven't been in control of a situation. And there's one particular time that springs to mind where our task force was conducting an operation, far south of Kabul, against a high value individual alongside with supporting our partner force from the Afghan Crisis Response Unit. And were deployed by a rotary wing Task Force, it came from the US aviation, so in Chinooks and Apache helicopters, and we had support overhead from an AC 130 gunship and other assets. And it was pitch black, cold, in the mountains of Afghanistan and we're coming into this valley system that was a long way away from support. And we had all the plans in place for how things were going to go. And I'd put some teams in on the ground prior to, who were observing us coming in to make sure the area was secure for the main force to come in. And I recall sitting on the back of this Chinook, and the rear door was open, and you're staring out across Afghanistan and you just see this tracer fire start coming up from the villages around us as we're coming into land. And this long arcs of dots coming towards their helicopters. And I was on comms with the aviation commanders. And it was quite a high tempo moment where they're talking through what they needed to do and comms coming from the ground. And I was looking at the tail gunner and these tracer rounds coming towards us and looking like they were hitting us and going past us. And there's nothing I could do, but completely calm and assured about what the outcome was going to be because we'd planned, we'd rehearsed and the people sitting beside me and those on the ground, I knew that whatever happened, would get through it. And I could rely on the decisions that would be made, the rehearsals were put in place, the trained state, the calibre of our people, and it's a theme throughout my career. I am constantly humbled and awed by the people that are within the NZSAS.

In that situation itself, how can you train for something like that, given the fact that there were so many factors outside of your control?

There's a couple of factors in that, the first is we select the people with the attitude and aptitude for the training. So that's part of why our selection is so grueling, why the pass rate is so small, because our training is designed to identify people who have the resilience, the grit, and the ability to conduct the training in those situations. And then the training that we do, we try and as realistically as possible, recreate the environment that our people are going to be in overseas. And these complex situations, because there's always an inherent risk in what we do. So that when they do deploy, we have removed as much risk from the situation as we can. And that's why we take all reasonable and practicable steps to remove risk in our training. But the work that we do is dangerous. The work that we're asked to do overseas is dangerous. And we can never remove that inherent risk. So it's always a factor, something that's a factor in my decision making is every element of life in the SAS carries inherent risk, whether it's in New Zealand, or an operations wherever in the world that may be.

Given that inherent danger, what was life like in Afghanistan on a day to day basis for the SAS?

So from my times there, I was in various roles from liaison officer, a troop commander, squadron commander and I finished up as a Task Force Commander when I when I left. And throughout that time, life in Afghanistan evolved. There was times when even life around Kabul, the risk increased. We were away from home, very clear around what our role was, but every action that we took, whether it was sending people off to do a task, or going out on a task, or even just moving around within the city itself required a degree of consideration and appreciation of what it was we were there over to do. It's hard to describe the environment, it's very different from and very hard to capture what it's like in Afghanistan, in a combat environment, for those that haven't been there, the images, the interactions, it will forever be a key part of who I am. And the history of the SAS and all those people who served over there.

What are some examples of the sort of tasks that the SAS were asked to carry out there?

Our key role in Afghanistan was partnering with our Afghanistan partners, so the Crisis Response Unit. And within that role, we were looking to build capacity, not just on an individual level, but build the capacity of the whole unit, how they operated, their planning, their leadership, and then responsible for preventing spectacular attack in Kabul and the surrounding provinces. And therefore, the tasks that we did each week, our operational cycle was at a high tempo, where there'll be multiple tasks throughout a week. And they could range from what would call a high risk arrest, with a Task Force deploy onto an operation, you know, in some of the contemporary special forces operations that you may see around, aviation and support going into a location outside of your normal secure areas, to remove a threat, whether that's a direct threat to Kabul or an individual or based upon information, or it may be facilitating information, gathering information in order to inform further decision making. So the way that we operated in Kabul varied but it was in support of the Crisis Response Unit, and building the capacity of that organisation.

Given that level of threat that you would have come across, what got you out of bed every day? And what motivated you to work in that sort of environment?

There's two aspects for me: so first is the challenge that the NZ Defence Force, the opportunity that provided and second was a real driver for me is service. And when I look back through my career and others and the history of you know, New Zealand, and its involvement in standing up for its values, and what words matter, actions mean more. Therefore, I see the SAS and the New Zealand Defence Force, as a tangible way for me to serve New Zealand and that spirit of service, that desire to help others who can't help themselves, I think is a really key part of being a New Zealander and a Kiwi. And that's my motivation. It was my motivation when I joined the military. That's my motivation now about tangible action, to help others to go to places where we want to stand up for what is right, challenges to the rules-based international system, and to take a stand on a particular matter.

We know that the SAS run towards danger. And that's a foreign concept for many members of the wider public, they can't imagine putting themselves in that situation. Some people might have a perception of members of the SAS as as being tough men, soldiers who can be hard, maybe be ruthless, maybe emotionless, how accurate is that description?

So the members of the SAS, I would say, the stereotype of what people think an SAS person is, is different from the reality of what a person in the SAS is. And that emotion, altruism, empathy is a key part of who we are, and hard men. You know, resilience and grit is foundational to being able to take that extra step. So, yes, being able to step forward when others take a backward step. And I think about one particular event, when a task force was going into a compound, and the group that we were seeking to apprehend, one of their members actually came out of the compound and started firing on the front elements of our task force as they were going in on the ground. And we'd had an overwatch team. And I recall clearly watching one of our people stepping forward into danger, to protect the others who are walking into that fire. And I think it is the training that we do and the people that join us and seek to push themselves that little bit further. It's an inherent part of who they are to step forward into dangers where others may step back.

Does that encapsulate the ethos and what it means to be in the SAS?

So the New Zealand Defence Force and NZ Army values are a key part of who we are, as are the tenants of the NZSAS essays. And the culture within the organisation, within our core is such that everybody feels connected and, and part of the shared history, what it means to be a New Zealander. And I'd say my observation over the years is, everybody wants to uphold that expectation. They don't want to let New Zealand down, or their teammates down. And therefore that continually drives people to continue to uphold that ethos, those values, those tenants.

As an officer in a leadership position over in Afghanistan, how often did you have to send others into life or death situations? And what was that like for you?

I'll actually just jump back a bit outside of Afghanistan to one of my earlier deployments before joining the SAS and to East Timor, when I was a platoon commander. On the second rotation, on NZ BATT 2. And my platoon ended up in a contact and one of my soldiers was killed. So Private Len Manning. And that's been a really formative part of my further career, losing one of those you're responsible for on operations forever leaves a lasting imprint on every decision that you make going forward. The nature of Afghanistan is such that every time we went out the door, every time and as I said, multiple operations a week, even administrative tasks, when you responsible for those decisions, I'd always make those with the understanding that there's an impact on an individual's life every time that somebody deployed, jumped on a helicopter, jumped in a vehicle. But I wasn't alone in making those decisions, in that the experience around me, one of our tenants is Brooks no sense of class, and that I felt extremely well supported by the experience, the calibre of the people around me. So that I had confidence when I was making those decisions, we'd mitigated risks as best we could, and therefore always seeking to get the best outcome.

What impact does life in the SAS have on those personnel? What toll does it take?

So the commitment required is significant, it's a high performing team. There's a significant level of personal motivation, mental, physical. Our standards are unwavering and maintaining that over years and years is cumulative. And then you add on that deployments, the stress of deployments, the constant, what we call a notice to move. So constantly being on call, the pressures of having to provide a huge part of your life in service is significant on an individual. But what I'm always cognizant of is that commitment is not as great, or it doesn't have as much impact on us, as it does on families of those in the SAS, and I have spent as have many, many others, a considerable part of my career away from my family. And that's a real tangible impact on, you know, it's a lifelong commitment that they've made, not seen parents or partners, children, etc, for a long period of time.

And on that, how does the unit support itself and how do your members support each other as a group, given those sacrifices and challenges that they've had to make?

One of the things that I'm really appreciative of, and really thankful for is the support that we get provided by the SAS Trust, the association, the support mechanisms in the wider New Zealand Defence Force, Veterans' Affairs, there's a lot of support there. I still think there's opportunity for us to look to other areas where we can do more, it's also about getting the messages out and making it easy for people to ask for support, whether they are within the service, or they've left the service. And now one of my concerns is, for those who have served in Afghanistan, or other areas, how we are continuing to support them, are we doing what we can, and have, we made it as easy as possible for them to connect, and when they need it, to put their hand up and for us to support them?

In terms of the work that the SAS did in Afghanistan, what's something you think that the public would be surprised to know about that work?

So the level of empathy, and the degree to which our people wanted to help the Afghan people and to develop our partner unit, and the relationships that were built. How New Zealand in some areas, lead the way in regards to how would develop their relationships with our partner. And the second aspect is that it's very rare that our operations would end in a firefight or kinetic. And, you know, there's a number of times, we would have to respond to a spectacular attack, or a hostage recovery, personnel recovery, where there'd been maybe an attack in Kabul itself. And there's some high profile instances of those in the media, but the majority of our operations, and I think around 97% of them, were conducted without a shot being fired. And a measure of success for us would that it would be comparatively dull, and that you'd go out, conduct a task, and then you'd come back without a shot being fired or being as planned. But there's also reassurance at knowing that no matter what happened, going back to my earlier point, that every time we went out the door, we had the odds stacked in our favour in regards to the conditions to decision making, the training and the calibre of the people, not only our own people, but also our Afghan partners, who we operated with.

You obviously spent many years in Afghanistan, how did it feel when you were leaving the country for the final time?

I first turned up in 2007 and in various roles until 2013, and I was commander of one of the last task forces out and we handed over to our Norwegian colleagues. And we were there for a number of weeks. Once you're closing down a deployment, you have the cleaning gear, packing kit, you know, accounting for stores, etc. And we had a quite a long period a number of weeks, we had another small task to support before we left but our mandate was finished. And we were sitting in Kabul in the compound where we will with our Norwegian friends and I was out on a task, administrative task and the ISAF headquarters. And a spectacular attack broke out and Norwegian friends deployed with the Afghan partners and it became quite kinetic and the CRU started taking some casualties. And it was a complex attack over multiple locations in Afghanistan. And our team had kitted up, we were sitting in the camp, and ISAF said they need support. There's some helicopters coming in and one of our considerations that we put in place was having snipers and overwatch on a aerial platform where helicopter, and ISAF were requesting some support from New Zealand and we had very experienced people there available but our mandate was finished. And there was a couple of conversations back to New Zealand, clarified the request, and there is no job for us. And from there it was hey, we're sitting with this one out, and they had to leave it to those to come after us. And that's a difficult thing. You know, the reason we're here is to help people need help. But also we're very clear on the authorities that we operate under, the role that we're there for, and where decisions are made as to what we do. And in this case, there was no further role for us and that's a tough call, but one that we understand.

What are you personally most proud of about your time in Afghanistan?

The memories of the people I've worked with, I look back on just small things where the relationships that you made, so there's decisions all throughout the time where you can go tangibly, that decision resulted in a positive outcome, like save that life, or this person is now going to have a greater opportunity. And, you know, there's a multitude of those throughout. And when you're looking at what happened in Afghanistan, and the way the overall coalition deployment ended, and I get people asking me question, you know, was it worth it? And I was like, yes, it was worth it. We lost people in Afghan, but we gave opportunity. And we sowed a seed for those that we worked alongside with, those that we engage with, that will be there for those generations. You know, I always think, the greatest gift you can give is opportunity for others. And whether it was people who we may have worked alongside directly, or just those that we've helped indirectly. I think that that will always be a lasting memory of success for me.

Thank you very much for your time today, Sean, really appreciate it. We'll end with one final reflection. What do you want the New Zealand public to know about the way the SAS is conducted themselves in Afghanistan?

So I've actually got two messages on this. So one is the Zealand public should be proud of the way that their SAS operates. And a really key part of who we are is our New Zealand identity, upholding our values, the way that we engage the bicultural strengths of Aotearoa New Zealand. I look back on Afghanistan, New Zealanders should be proud of, of the achievements of those who have served. But my second message is for those who have served is you should also be proud of what you have done. I know there's veterans out there who have found it tough either leaving the military or still the military. And my key message is, you know, be proud of what you have done. And for those of you who feel like there's things that you need to discuss or you need help in areas, then you know, then the New Zealand Defence Force is here to assist and to please get in touch.

This podcast is a production of the New Zealand Defence Force Defence Public Affairs team. We're your hosts, Alex Mason, and Mitchell Alexander. We'd like to thank our guests for sharing their stories with us.

If you need to talk to someone you'll find details for support services in the show notes. We welcome your feedback on this podcast, contact us by email podcast@nzdf.mil.nz. Haere Ra.