Welcome to part two of our conversation with Frank Ostaseski where we continue to explore death, compassion and gratitude. Welcome to Deep Transformation, Self, Society, Spirit, Life enhancing, Paradigm Rattling conversations with cutting edge thinkers, contemplatives and activists with Dr. Roger Walsh and John Dupuis.

What I'm struck by as you speak, and I was also struck by in your book, is how many of the qualities that enable someone to be with the dying in a supportive, helpful way and in recognition that helpful may mean not doing anything other than being a loving presence, but they're really, they're not professional skills, their personal qualities and capacities. And that feels again, part of the difficulty with medicalization and professionalization is so much of how we think of approaching people and helping people focuses on techniques and skills as opposed to being human with, et cetera. This struck me so much in reading about the work with the dying.

Well, thank you for saying that. Roger and I, it's things we learn from our grandmothers, probably not our mothers and fathers. It keeps a generation, such things. I think that kind of humanity sitting in your grandma's lap, you learn about it, you know, Robo Shin, I think it's called in Zen, grandmother Love, Grandmother wisdom. So it's the most natural thing and it's just that we've lost touch with it and we've so professionalized our care of the dying that we've become frightened and we forget our innate generosity and wisdom and compassion. Raja, you and I come from share a strong Buddhist legacy or practice and I'm ever grateful for it, you know, compassionate action, which is, I think, what guided our work. It's an hospice project. It works from this understanding, at least in my way of thinking about it as this kind of boundless compassion that's available to us all the time, you know, and we speak about this beautifully and the texts speak about it. But then there's this very grounded everyday compassion which seems really important. It's when we do stuff, you know, when we feed someone soup or we, you know, change their diapers, that's everyday compassion. And for me, that has to be rooted in this boundless compassion. Otherwise we will get exhausted and we will not be able to continue to do it. But that boundless compassionate needs this everyday compassion. Otherwise it's just a big idea, it's just a big prayer and that doesn't help anything in the world. So it's this blending of the universal and the everyday which seems so important in our work at the bedside. And again, I don't want to make these things not romantic about it. We don't think it's the place where we should do a spiritual bypass. I just think it's where that innate quality will emerge most easily in us, because we see ourself and the other person. And when we do, when we see ourselves in them and we see them in us, the way in which we care for them fundamentally shifts. It changes. They're not just the object of our care anymore. They become not in some unhealthy emergence, but they become us, too. We see our mothers in them and our loved ones in them, and we care for them differently. And I think this has to be part of our medical training going forward.

I wanted to share experience. I went to live with my parents the last couple of years of their lives. I had a very pure love for my parents. You know, in the forward of my book, I said, all my mistakes are on me, you know, and everybody in grad school said I was in big denial about it. But maybe so, maybe not. But I really made sure that they knew, because I had two years to do this, that how grateful I was for all the love they'd given me and good role modeling of integrity and honesty. And there was nothing left unsaid that needed to be said in that relationship. And Roger and I met and became friends when we were in a conference, and he had just lost his wife, and I just lost my parents. And that's when we connected, Roger. That's when the friendship began. There was just an emptiness or openness in us that brought us together. So I would say that's important for your loved ones to don't give them a call or just let them know. Don't leave anything unsaid that needs to be said. And I'm very, very complete with my parents in that way. And though I still miss them, that really helped.

Beautiful, John. Just beautiful. I mean, that's a rare experience, you know? It's a rare experience, John. I mean, oh, boy. One of the five invitations is, don't wait. Don't wait until your parents are dying to have this conversation. Do it now. Do it now. Don't wait to tell people you love that you love them. How gorgeous that you got to do that, you know?

I'd sit next to my dad with my arm around him on the couch. I'd hold his hand and just look in his eyes like, dad, I love you so much. Thank you for being such a great father.

Yeah.

What a gift.

It must have changed your experience of their dying deeply for you, John.

Yes. In that there Was no unfinished business in that way. It was still. It was still a great loss to me, and I still miss him. But there's a tenderness about that, you know, there's no regrets.

Yeah, well, of course there's a tenderness. There's grief. And, you know, I. We haven't talked about this yet, but grief, to me, is a way we continue to love someone. You know, it's not just our. Our emotional experience of that disconnection. It's a way we love. We have too many models to try and get people over grief or through grief. I'm a little troubled by those, to be honest with you. How come we're never trying to get people over their joy or over their happiness? I mean, grief is just part of the human condition. Of course.

Of course.

It's a natural response to the experience of loss.

I'd like to go back to something you introduced before Frank, which was possible experiences that, beyond the idea of acceptance, you talked about the surrender. And are there subsequent experiences that you've noticed tend to arise for people after an experience of surrender?

Well, of course there are the things that John was just talking about. When people discover what matters most to them, they tend to act on it. They tend to say things like, well, the only thing that's really important to me is being around the people I love now. So I think those kinds of very pragmatic kinds of realizations emerge. I think there are subtler experiences that occur, Roger, that are difficult to speak about because they're so ephemeral and they won't subject themselves to our need to prove things. But absolutely, I mean, we can. If we're quiet, we're still. We can track people's experience. We can track consciousness as it is changing in another person. Many people have great capacity for this. Some of the people I've studied with have that capacity. I don't. I've known it for a little while. I know it in the dying process and for a short time afterwards. So it gives me confidence that consciousness doesn't stop abruptly when the heart stops or the brain stops. My experience in that tracking is oftentimes of a great stillness. Something is as black as the shirt you're wearing, sir. There's a kind of peacefulness in it, a velvety quality that I notice in my own consciousness when I'm with someone in that process. That's not to say that there aren't more different states that that individual might move through, maybe states that are chaotic or difficult. But oftentimes my experience of them in the first day or two after they're dying is something like a kind of velvety black peacefulness. I remember being in Italy, teaching at a vineyard, and I talked to people about this, and they said, oh, no, we don't like this. We like the clear light. We want the blue sky. We want the clear light. And I said, well, the black is there, too. And they said, oh, no, no, it's terrible. They didn't want to experience it. So I said, we were at night. And so I said, come outside. And we came outside and we all laid everybody down on the lawn. And I said, look up at the sky. What do you see? Stars. Wonderful twinkling stars. I said, yeah, and what are the stars resting in? And, of course, people began to see this kind of black, boundless quality that was there. And I'm not trying to impose that on anyone, but I'm also not. I'm trying not to have us live with some idealistic idea about what should happen and what will happen after the time of our dying. So my experience of that is different than other people's and certainly others, some of the other teachings that we've both been exposed to. I think that one of the experiences that comes out of people's close encounters with death is a quality of gratefulness and generosity. Our dear old friend, Brother David links those two together very beautifully into a sense of deep belonging. And I think that I often see that that's one of the qualities that emerge from these deeper experiences of surrender and the like. A steep sense of belonging not only to their families and friends, but to something larger than themselves that also includes themselves. That's the way I have of speaking about it. We belong even when we think we don't belong.

Yeah, I think that's probably one of the great fears of dying. Feeling that we no longer belong. Somehow we're disconnected.

Well, yes, that's true. Until that sense of self starts to be stripped away. And when that stripping occurs, the sense of individualized self, the separate self, let's call it, begins to either again, as I said earlier, be stripped away or gracefully released. Then there's something else that starts to emerge, and I think it's this. The walls of Jericho come tumbling down. That's what happens. You know, the walls I've built to protect and prop up this sense of self come tumbling down. And then I feel myself. I can feel myself connected with something that's already there, always there. Yeah. And people have many different ways of languaging this. I'm not interested in imposing my language on Her. There was a grandma that I knew. She was, I think, a Christian Scientist. I don't recall now, anyhow, very, very devout. And her daughter came to see her, a young granddaughter. So, excuse me, came to see her. And she said, grandma, I've been reading some books, and after you die, you know, everyone that you love will be there to meet you. So don't worry, Grandma. You don't have to be concerned about this. It will be okay. And Grandma got terrified because what she hadn't told the granddaughter but had told me was that her husband Edgar had been beating her for the last five years of his life until he died. And now the ocean. The notion of being with Edgar for eternity was terrifying to her. So I'm very careful about not imposing any ideas about what happens after we die. I'm very careful about that. I very rarely ever give advice about it. You know, the Buddha didn't speak about it very much either, come to think of it. But. So I'm interested in what people discover in the process rather than giving them my ideas. Having a great sense of curiosity seems most important.

Curiosity mixed with the emphasis you give and Actually, one of your five invitations of holding don't know mind and that mystery. And I. I think I've come to a way of summarizing that for myself, which is trust people who have questions. Be wary of those who have answers, those who have the answer.

Let's talk about that for a minute. Roger, how do you understand don't know mind? How is it and how can you imagine it being helpful in this time of dying?

Well, I imagine it. I'd love to have this dialogue. I love your section on cultivate don't know mind. And it feels really important and feels for me, there's been a deepening appreciation that we live in. Actually, when we let go of our presuppositions, we realize that we live in bottomless, boundless mystery. And you ask a couple of questions, you're in mystery. And I know that for myself. I spent so much of my life with this very subtle sense which I didn't recognize, but there was something wrong with me. I just didn't understand it. There was this one moment I still remember I was sitting on the living room couch where I realized, oh, wait a minute. The idea that I don't understand things isn't a problem, it's the reality. And I was suffering, and it was like letting go a burden I didn't even know I'd been carrying. It feels like it's such a helpful perspective. To realize that it's all mystery. And yes, within the mystery, we have to make assumptions and act and be responsible. But to hold it within the context of what you call don't know mind feels not knowing goes from being a problem to being a relief.

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Yeah. I mean, we associate it with ignorance, of course, and it's not. Don't know mind is not ignorance. I'm not encouraging that in some ways, you know, and many people think they don't know, but honestly, it would be better if they didn't actually know. That would be better. Don't know mind is just. For me, it's just a mind of wonder and curiosity and Tsuzuki Roshi's famous beginner's mind, you know. So can you imagine meeting dying with a don't know mind instead of one that's fixed and expecting the next experience to emerge, you know, don't know, I don't know. That feels so free to me, you know, that when we let go into that, into that uncertainty, that is the most beautiful place to be.

My first experience of being with somebody that I knew was a big part of my life died was my grandmother. And she was a very religious woman. My grandfather died when I was just a child. I mean, an infant. I didn't know him, but I knew her. And they lived out in this farm in rural Louisiana, down in the Cajun country. And every morning she used to sit down on her back porch and do her rosary. That was her time in the morning. That's like the first person I ever knew how to spiritual practice, which I didn't frame it that way now, but thinking back. But she was passing and you know, her whole family was around her. She was the matriarch. I mean, they had eight kids and they had kids, and this is a big, big family. And I went in to sit with her, and she was actually having visions of family that she's seen. It was like she's really in a blessed state. And this was like 1970 or 71, like that. And I had long hair. I was pretty much a hippie, I guess I looked like one anyway. And the rest of the family, they weren't unkind to me, but they weren't too comfortable with my long blonde hair. And I had my guitar and I would sing her song. I would sing her psalms and stuff that I knew to music. And she was just like. She was just blissed out by it. Said, you know, I was an angel. You know, that's Cajun French for dear child or something like that. And she was so. Yeah. So my. My first experience was like, oh, this is not a bad thing. And this may sound a little pie in the sky or anything, but that was my true experience with the passing of my grandmother. There was a lot of love there. And I don't know if that's because. Well, because she was so beloved, but because she had her own, you know, spiritual connection and a very devout Catholic and that she was. I don't know. But I left feeling blessed. I left feeling like I'd been there for something very beautiful. I'm not trying to take away from the experience, but that was really the experience of it.

One of the things that's emerging lately that's being talked about more is a kind of terminal lucidity, actually, that happens for people. People who have been sometimes experiencing dementia or confusion of one kind or another through the dying process, sometimes in the final days, let's call it moments. There's a kind of lucidity that's beginning to emerge for people where people can communicate clearly and they haven't been able to communicate in years. And this isn't magic and it isn't a miracle, but science is also having a difficult time understanding it. What actually happens that would allow someone to speak clearly when they haven't been able to for years? Yeah. So I don't know. I can't explain it, but I witnessed it and, you know, it's so much of the mystery that Roger was talking about earlier.

Wow. Wow.

And that your, you know, kindness to your grandma could be felt. That's a beautiful thing, isn't it?

Yes.

Was, forget about the impact of simple human kindness. I think we get so caught up in our ideas and protocols and et cetera, we forget about simple human kindness.

Yeah. Beautifully said. Very simple. Was it Aldous Huxley who said, it's somewhat humbling to come to the end of my life and realize I have nothing, no better wisdom to impart than try to be a little kinder?

Yeah. I think it's really important for me, at least at the hospice, it was a guiding principle. Just try their best to be kind and see what the impact is when you do that.

Yeah. Beautiful. Your life has been shaped by your contact and being with the dying. And one of the things that struck me among friends and acquaintances who have worked with the dying in hospice, in your Zen hospice and other places, has been the frequency with which they report being deeply touched and transformed by the experience. And do you have any suggestions for how the rest of us can imbibe of this learning. I mean, not everyone's going to volunteer at a hospice. Most of us at some stage will probably be caring for people who die. And of course, all of us will face our own. But as you. Part of the wisdom you're imparting is it's a good thing to begin this learning process before. Before we're dying. How can we learn, begin to begin this learning process?

Good question, Roger. Let me begin by saying I don't think that caring for the dying is any more important than gardening. Actually, I think you could do both with great attention, and there'd be deep learning that would come from either of those experiences. But. But I think that one of the simple practices we can do is pay attention to endings. You know, how do we end something? You know, how do we end a meal? How do we end the conversation when we go to one of these conferences that we've been talking about? How do we end it? Do we leave before it's over? You know, what are the lessons we've been taught around ending and who taught them to us, and do we want to continue to carry them on? So I think paying attention to the way in which we meet endings is really important. The end of this breath, the end of this sentence, and I might add, how do we love? You know, one of the big questions that's always there in one way or another is for people at the end of life is, am I loved? Did I love? Well, you know, not in a critical way, but, you know, did I give the love I really wanted to give? And, you know, if those two questions are important at the end of our life, well, certainly they're important now. Those two practices of looking at the way in which we love and how we. Whether we feel ourself being loved and watching endings, I think they're important. But also, last thing I'll say on this, pardon me, that I think that this experience of mystery that you referenced earlier is always there for us, and we can open our attention to that. We can open our attention to when we're swept away, so to speak. What's it like in a concert when we enter the mystery through the music that's being performed? What's it like when we relax the sense of self a little bit? I think all of these things are preparations for dying. One of the questions I ask people regularly is, do you think that dying will happen later? And, you know, if I'm in an audience of people, everybody's hands go up. Of course, everybody thinks it'll be later. Well, impermanence is not later. Impermanence is here in this very moment. You know, it's woven into the very fabric of life. And so if we attend to that, if we attend to the constant change of things, then we won't be surprised by our dying. I think. Yeah, attending to the constant change of things. Not just that the seasons come and go and relationships come and go, but that we ourselves are both here and disappearing. So then we don't hold so tightly to our treasured beliefs and to our fixed ideas about who we are and to our sense of separateness. I think these are ways of bringing this into our day to day life that can give us some of the same experience we have in being with dying, whether it's our own or dying of someone else. I don't know, maybe those are just words.

Maybe they are, but they certainly seem to be pointing to something very important. And you're saying maybe the words. Yeah. And all this held within the mystery as we were talking about.

I mean, there's a. I think in my book, I put this in. I don't recall. I was in Japan earlier this year and at the height of cherry blossom season. Ah, it's gorgeous. You've been there. And it's, you know, these exquisite blossoms that cover the hillside that last only for a few weeks. Why are those blossoms so beautiful to us? Isn't it their, the brevity of their lives that capture us, that invite us into their exquisiteness? I think that's part of it. So, you know, there's a myriad of ways that we can recognize that in our day to day lives. And if we don't banish death from life, if we see that it's a package deal, get born and we die. Shoji, the famous Japanese Zen term, you know, that means life, death. One thing, one thing.

You know, when I was talking the other day, I said, you know, mentioned what if you could have a day of life for every grain of sand on the planet Earth? What a horrifying thought that is. I'm just, oh my God, no. And then I got the inner vision of the wave returning to the sea. I'm like, okay, all right, that feels good. But this guy continuing for ad infinitum is like, it's not what I want either. I think that would be hell. But a wave returning to the ocean is.

Yeah, yeah, that's a beautiful metaphor. But you know, the truth is we rely on impermanence, don't we? I mean, first of all, impermanence is not just the ending of Things. Impermanence is the law of change and becoming. That's how we can understand it. So we rely on it, right? That. That cold you have today, it won't last forever. You know, your knee pain's gonna go away. So it's not just, oh, isn't it horrible that things that people die. I think we rely on it. You know, if not for impermanence.

We.

Wouldn'T have the forest. Your children wouldn't grow up to be scientists. We wouldn't have. We wouldn't know the preciousness of this life.

Frank. Our cultural attitudes have shifted so dramatically with regard to dying. From days of my early medical training when there was so little written about it, Kubler Ross's book was the big thing. And so there have been dramatic changes, and you've been a pioneer in facilitating those changes. But what more would you like to see in the way of cultural transformation with regard to death and dying?

Well, you know, we have, at the local ymca, we have Red Cross life saving courses and swimming courses. You know, wouldn't it be wonderful if we included some ongoing education about this in our life, in our schools? That's the first thing that comes to mind. Suppose we had greater conversations about it. And that's beginning to happen. You know, there are death cafes now, and there's a wonderful program called Death Over Dinner where people begin to have these conversations where, you know, it's not so forbidden. So I think that's part of. First thing that comes to mind is how do we have the conversation? The second is that there have been experiences like physician assisted death, which is a kind of shock jock to this conversation. People have more agency now around their dying, and I think that's a good thing. I don't have a moral judgment around this at all. And I think there's lots of ways in which people die. And now this is an option for people in many places in the world, and I'm grateful for it. Yeah.

I have a friend who's a doctor in the Netherlands, and he had done that, assisted people to die. And when he would talk about it, he would just kind of light up like it had been a holy experience. And such gratitude from the person that he helped die and the family. It was quite. It was quite, you know, and his experience. And it just seems like we want to hold on to life, you know, matter what the quality and everything. It's like Adyashanti said, we have more compassion for our dogs than we do for human beings when it comes to assisting them to die in the End.

So, yeah, I mean, what's beautiful about physician assisted death, whether it's here or elsewhere in the world, is that the choice is living with the person who is going through this experience, the person who's dying, you know, and so I want to make sure that we differentiate it from suicide, that we differentiate it from euthanasia, and it's neither of those things. It is a skillful response sometimes, but even with this, John, I was not long ago with a Zen priest, very well, highly regarded person, and he chose this option, but he was riddled with guilt about it. Riddled with guilt. What will my students think? I should stay longer, I, you know, etc. Etc. Etc. And so I sat down with him and I. I said, what do you want people to know? What do you want from people at this moment now? And he said, well, I want to be loved and I want to be respected. I started writing these things down on a piece of paper and of course we came up with a long list of very simple things. I want to be looked, I want my judgments to be understood, the choices I make to be understood. And we had came up with this long list. And I made a kind of poster out of it and I hung it on his wall. And so everybody that came into his room saw that list before they saw him. And so it became a kind of preparation for being with him. And then the way in which they were with him changed substantially and his, as a result of their kindness, his guilt began to subside. You know, in the Tibetan tradition, there's something called proximate karma. Yeah. And it's complicated thing, so we won't go into it, but basically it means what's in the neighborhood? Yeah, what's in the neighborhood? So when someone is dying, they might be in utter confusion, but if you are sitting there next to them, John, and your mind is somewhat clear, your heart is somewhat open, that can be a huge aid to that person in their dying process. In this case, it was students beginning to understand and love their teacher anyway, regardless of his choices. So I think that this is a great boon that's come into our culture. I also think that this possibility that, you know, we might have better drugs to give to people than sedation. There's a lot of work going on around psychedelics, et cetera, people exploring this in the months before dying. And I think there's some value in this explanation. I think if we have some experience of more expanded states of mind in our life, they can become reference points for us in the experiences that we meet in the dying process. I don't think what happens in psychedelics and dying are the same thing. I don't equate them, but I think they could be useful tools in helping us to meet the profundity that we will encounter in the time of dying.

That we are beyond our egos. There's something much bigger.

Well, there's at least a possibility of this. Who we are experiencing ourself as something larger. It's not that we're going to kill the ego and get rid of it. I don't know who wants to do that. The awareness doesn't need to kill the ego, but when we have a more expanded quality of awareness, we know ourselves to be that in addition to.

We could say, say thank you.

And it does seem that there is now significant research showing that the psychedelic experience can be very valuable for people with, for example, fear, existential confrontation. So both many people's individual experience plus solid research seems to suggest the potential value in at least some people.

Absolutely, that seems to be the case, you know, and there's been good studies on that. But I. I'm concerned about it because I don't want it to be another bypass that we use. And I don't necessarily want these medications, if you will, to be in the hands of untrained facilitators or physicians, for example, that are not familiar with their impact. So I'm very cautious about how we would use these things. I think they're very. They could be valuable in the months before dying.

Actually. I definitely want to honor your cautions because tragically, as at least with at least preliminary stage, and with, for example, ketamine, the use of ketamine, it's now being used as a psychedelic for a variety of purposes. And then research is clear. It can be very valuable, for example, with PTSD or with depression, but it is being used as a money maker in some clinics and not done with the kind of psychotherapeutic support or appropriate training that you're suggesting. So thank you for pointing to those safeguards.

Yeah, I think it's important, Frank, as.

We kind of come towards the end here, to acknowledge the beauty of the work you've done and how much good has come out of just your being with the dying in a very open, learning, don't know way. And so much has come out of that. And you seem to have let go a lot of personal agendas and so forth. We're all works in progress. But is there anything else you would love to see, love people to know or to be able to do yourself.

You know, Ram Dass, our buddy, we talked together quite a lot. We were speak, doing some workshop, I don't recall where. And I began to speak about the experience of bathing the body of someone after they die. And you know, this has happened in every culture and every tradition for millennium. And there's something so beautiful about it, you know. And of course there are rituals for doing this in various traditions, but we can also create our own rituals around these things. And my experience has been that this is extraordinarily beneficial to family members and friends or to medical professionals after there's been a death because we put aside all the things of medicine, we put aside all the things having to do with sickness and. And we just care for this person in the most loving, simple way. And my sense of what occurs after that is that people's relationship to dying shifts because they're literally touching it. They're literally touching death and it's not as frightening as they imagined. So I think I would like to invite these kinds of rituals back into our experience of the dying process, including in hospitals. People often get a cursory bath after they've died. But what would it be like if the staff had an opportunity to bathe them in a ritual like way to say goodbye or family members were invited into that process? Maybe it seems too far out for your listeners, but I think this one single action could fundamentally shift our relationship to dying. When Ram Dass and I were teaching together, he asked me that question that you just did. And that was my answer then and continues to be my answer now.

Beautiful.

One of the thrusts of this whole conversation is that our culture is just not dealing well with death. And I know some cultures that are much more Native American and say Jewish Orthodox and different ones, or life and death are much, very much accepted and honored and sacred. And we cut ourselves off from that and. And impoverished ourselves. So thank you for the work you're doing and how you touch me. Preparing for this conversation and being part of it's been a great honor and a great blessing. Thank you.

And a big joy for me and thank you for your tenderness also, John. I appreciate your including that in our conversation.

Yeah, yeah, likewise for me. Deeply have been deeply touched by reading your book and I want to again emphasize what an exquisite book this is. The five Invitations Discovering what death can teach us about living fully. And I also want to just point to something you said in passing in your last comment about what you hoped you might yet be able to communicate further and you emphasized the beauty of washing a body and you also said making a ritual around this. One of the things I take away is from this conversation is the importance of finding, creating our own rituals for life, for life transitions and for the final transition of death. So that's been a particularly powerful thing I will take away among many others. Frank, I just want to thank you so much for what you've done. The heart and spirit with which you've approach this work and the way in which that don't know mind, open hearted, bringing the fullness of your being to the experience of being with the dying and the living has impacted me, John, and our culture. This is a priceless gift and I hope you know just how and let in just how much good you've done. You've really transformed a lot of people and saved a lot of people enormous amount of suffering. So thank you, thank you for your.

Kind words, Roger and I want to just applaud you and John for doing this program that now this, our words, our conversation will go out to thousands and thousands of people and you're impacting, influencing how we as a culture become, begin to think about this. So I'm very grateful that you've done this. Thank you for doing it.

Yeah, we're grateful for the opportunity too. Yeah. Frank, thank you so much. John, thank you so much. Thank you, Heidi, Heidi Mitchell who is our podcast producer and Vanessa Santos who is our technological whiz. And thank you all for listening and being with us and making this podcast conversation possible.

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Sa.