Nehemiah chapter 8, verses 9 through 12 in the numeric and standard Bible. Then Nehemiah, who was the governor, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people, said to all the people, this day is holy to the Lord your God. Do not mourn or weep for all the people were weeping when they heard the words of the law. Then he said to them, go and eat the fat drink of the sweet and send portions to him who has nothing prepared for this day is holy to our Lord. Do not be grieved, so the joy of the Lord is your strength. So the Levites calmed all the people saying, be still for the day is holy. Do not be grieved. All the people went away to eat, to drink, to send portions and to celebrate a great festival because they understood the words which had been made known to them. This breakpia scripture follows portion where Ezra was reading the scripture to the Israelites, teaching from it right after they returned to Jerusalem from the exile. From an exile. The people were originally weeping over what they heard, but it quickly turns to celebration with food and wine. In the section we just read there. Read there. I think wine. Dr. Leah, Dr. Reverend Leah Robinson. How do you think we could tell like when the proper response to theology, scripture teaching, whatever is celebration rather than remorse? Because no, sometimes remorse is good.

Well, when wine's involved. Clearly anyone who's like a hardcore inheritance, inherent, inherent Bible person and doesn't think that we should drink wine, I feel like has a lot of explaining to do. But yeah, I mean I think them being out of exile, I think is a really important part of this because they had sort of accepted accepted. It's when one accepts that your life is just a life of oppression. And a lot of people do that. And so it's really hard to snap people out of that. And I think we see that in the day to day now is, you know, it's actually really hard to be, I would say a minister in 2026 because every day is sort of doom and gloom. It doesn't. There doesn't seem to be a light. And so I think that you have to have a group of people to sort of say no, like this is not what life is all about. You know, this is what we've been living and it is not discrediting your experience. But today we are going to take a moment, we're going to take a break from that and we're gonna drink and we're gonna eat and we're gonna eat more than we should and we're gonna drink more than we should and we're gonna have a good old time in community. And it's not forgetting it. It's just saying that this isn't all that life is. And so when I hear that scripture, that's what I. What I really think about is, you know, it's okay to feel down. It's okay to feel like the world is against you and that things are not going well, because a lot of times they aren't. But take a break, find a friend. Good segue. And have some wine.

They call her Reverend because she can preach. If you didn't know. Hey guys, welcome to the whole church podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast, possibly not. Which is cool because, you know, you can't have unity podcasts that are like competing over the other unity podcasts. Which of us are least polarizing? Because then it's like, yeah, just seems self defeating. Right? Anyway, I'm Joshua Noel, one of the hosts. Usually I'm only here to introduce the other host, TJ Tavares. Juan Blackwell, the greatest co host of all time, Pod Almighty. But Pot Almighty has forsaken us. Why? Why have I been forsaken? I don't know, but I really. Yeah, yeah, I'm forsaking him next week. So it's fine. You guys will hear more about that later. But today I am with the one and only, our two, two and only host of Theology on the Rocks. Two of my favorite people to get to talk to. Princess Reverend Doctor, a bunch of other adjectives, Leah Robinson and only Dr. Christy. Wh. I am so excited to have you guys here. I've been listening to Theology Rocks for a long time and today we're going to talk about their podcast, some about the other stuff they do and how their podcast is on the Unazile podcast network.

And.

And we might compare it to some of the other shows, just out of curiosity, you know, where are the similarities.

On the street and put us in a bag and now we're here.

Is that how that worked?

Yeah, it was. Yep, yep.

We were just lounging around on the street.

Honestly, the way it happened on my end was like we had a few other shows we were reaching out to to see if anybody want to join the network. And I think Christian or Brandon or somebody was like, yeah, you really like Theology on the Rocks? Are they on a network? And I'm like, they're huge. They're awesome. They're definitely on a network. I was like, well, you might as well ask, like, what could it hurt? And I was like, I guess I'll ask to see. And I think y' all are the first ones to respond. And I was like, that's the one that I didn't think was going to respond to me because they're too important.

We have many other products, but we also have a lot of time on our hands, which is great.

Which is great. Yeah. Well, they're also some of my favorite, like Leah, and I've admired y' all for a long time. But I remember the time that I first considered Leah friend is. Cause we were both kind of drunk at the algae beer camp and talking about why Rey actually is an awesome protagonist in the Star wars sequels.

Oh, yeah.

And this is just the beginning of us angering Christian Ashley. If he's listening to this, that's like, maybe our side goal for this episode is to just poke at him. Church unity. Except for today, we're gonna poke at. He hates the sequels as a whole. Oh. Everything about them, I think. Yeah.

And I didn't understand it because he's. He's like, all right, everybody take a drink now or something. On one of our. Our recordings, I was like, are we just drinking? Because I. I mean, I. I will.

But that's so funny. I do know he doesn't like Rey, but I think it's because he thinks Rey is, like, one of those characters with no flaws. And I think he might be wrong. But for our other podcast, that's a flaw. True. That was so cringe, and I hated it. But again, I'm here with Dr. Reverend Leah Robinson. She is a professor of religion at Mercer University. And we're also here with Dr. Christy Whaley, who is an assistant professor of religions at St. Petersburg College. I'm without tj, so we're already off the rails, and I don't know how to do his parts, which is most of the intro. So I apologize. Guys. Go to our website, purchase one of our T shirts. You know, getting the T shirt helps promote the show. It raises money for the podcast and gets word out about the show. Like, it accomplishes a lot with a simple action. One of my favorites is called the. I don't remember what it's called. It might be called, like, the Irish Trinity knot, might be all it's called because it has the Irish Trinity knot on it. And I think it's awesome because I like that.

Sure made me a T shirt with my avatar for.

I saw that.

That looked really cool. Because it's pretty cool. I'm very biased.

We should have one that just has, like, all that different avatars, so people could just pick one their favorite host. But that's our other show, Systematic Geekology. If you guys want to head over to the Anazole Podcast network, you can see Theology on the rocks, Systemic Ecology. I mentioned Christian Ashley. So we'll say let nothing move you. You can listen to that, too. And, like, five other shows he's on. Because as much as I like to pick at him, Christian is awesome and does a lot of podcasts, and he's a good friend and a nice person, even if I disagree with him about a lot of things, including Star Wars. So there you go. Yeah. He also has a show like why I Don't like. So I'm sure eventually he'll talk about why he doesn't like Star wars on that.

I'll be on there. I can be on there.

Well, since we've already been so serious. So we've just been so serious. I think it's time to get it to a silly question to kind of like, you know, break the ice. There's all this tension here. Yeah.

Yes.

Right.

The silly question. I think it's the greatest form of unity, is silliness.

I love it.

And instead of a question, I really did like a whole segment for this, because I was like, there's no way we'll get off the rails. I might as well do something that will keep us. Well, make certain that we do get off the rails. Like, I was worried that we wouldn't get off, so, I mean, you would.

Be so focused and serious.

If I didn't have this, I would be too focused. Yeah. So here it is. Instead of a question, it's a assignment we're all going to do. And I'll go first, give you guys time to think about it. We're going to pair a wine with your favorite book, a beer with your favorite show, and a cocktail with your favorite TV series. I think picking my favorite book is probably the hardest of all of these.

So Chris is gonna pull Christian and be like, well, I have four.

I will, I will.

I will.

Make it one. I will, I will.

I. I'm gonna go with my favorite book. I'm gonna say is Alice in Wonderland, but I'm including Through the Looking Glass because it's just all amazing. I. I feel like it just needs to be something, like, exotic and weird. So if I'm gonna go with a wine for that one. I've seen an apricot wine once. I didn't try it, but I should have, and I think that Would go really well with it. Cause, like, that feels kind of British and kind of, like, zany. So I feel like that works. Favorite show. There's a lot I could say. I'm gonna go with Scrubs. Cause they're about to do the renewal, and I just love Scrubs so much. If I'm picking beer for Scrubs, it can't be, like, a real manly beer or, like, you know, like what I. I usually drink, like, dark stouts, but I feel like that's too, like, too strong. Yeah. So I feel like it needs to be something, like, light, maybe fruity. So I'm like, I'm gonna cheat. And instead of a beer, I think it would be either, like, a sour or a cider. So maybe like an apple. Like a hard apple cider, I feel like, would probably. That's perfect be good for Scrubs. Cocktail with my favorite. Oh, wait, I did this wrong. Instead of Cocktail with your favorite movie is what that was supposed to be. That's okay. Josh can edit this. That loser. Okay. Cocktail with your favorite movie. I. I still think my favorite movie is Kingdom of Heaven, even though I know there's a lot of anti Christian rhetoric in it. But it's fine because I love it anyway. Cocktail, that's hard. I do think it should be something stronger. So maybe like a mule, but maybe like a Kentucky mule instead of a German mule. Because it's still very much like, you can tell that this is, like, American Hollywood film, you know? Yeah, yeah, I'll go with a Kentucky mule with that.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. Who wants to go next?

I'll go. Because I know the reason I'm gonna go is because Chrissy's still thinking about that book. I know her. All right, so my. This is gonna be kind of surprising, I think, to a lot of people that my favorite book is actually Jack Kerouac on the Road because it goes against my feminist leanings. But I read it. I love it. It just is. I can't do anything about it. And I think actually it's. You gotta have a real trashy wine for that. And I'll shout out to anybody who's ever been to Scotland for Buckfight Fast. I feel like it's the wine. It's like fortified wine. It's. It's like there's not really an equivalent, but it also has energy drink in it. So it's wine. Yeah.

It's not caffeine. Yeah.

This sounds crazy. I like it.

It makes people go insane. And I drank it one time, and we were at a Festival. And essentially you feel pretty good because it's like the wine chill, but you're feeling good. Yeah. And then if you have, like, more than a couple, you want to, like, go out and just rage against the machine. So I feel like that is perfect for on the road. It starts out okay, and then things go completely insane. Let's see. My favorite TV show is Twin Peaks, as we know. If you've listened to podcasts at all, David Lynch's masterpiece. And there is actually a brewery, and I'll take a picture of it in Charlotte that has a beer. The brewery is called Petty Thieves and it's got a beer called the End is Near. And it's all the red room from. And like the giant. If you know that's cool. Twin Peaks, they've just designed it as that. And they have a Twin Peaks day that's coming up this Saturday. Well, depending on when we record this, maybe not, but it. It's coming. It's a Saturday. My favorite film is all the Real Girls, which is a independent film about Southern people, and I really, really love it.

So all the Real Girls.

All the real Girls, yeah. It has a very young Danny McBride, weirdly Zoe Deschanel, but the rest of them are. Are kind of have become pretty big Southern actors. If you go to the Righteous Gemstones, a lot of them are.

Yeah, okay, I see it, I see it. I'm gonna check.

Yeah. But it was like the first film that I saw that really portrayed Southerners as being like, they all have these intense accents, like very, very deep North Carolinian accents, but like, they're talking about, like, mind blowing stuff and like, really intelligent stuff. And it was like, you know, they weren't the comic relief.

And.

And I think that was. But it's also a really good story as well and interesting about poverty and economics in this region. In terms of drinks, it has to be something that's quintessentially Southern. There's a drink actually in. I had. I had many of them in my head. But there's a drink in Savannah called the Artillery Punch. If you.

Ooh, that sounds interesting.

Oh, it is. It is interesting. I told Christy it's like the Savannah sort of drink of the city, but it's basically a prohibition drink, so that they just have thrown a bunch of stuff into it and now they make it just as like a novelty drink, but it will make you feel things.

I know. Savannah, Georgia. This is going to be so random. There is a burger I love that's in Savannah, Georgia, but I never Remember the name of the restaurant, but I know exactly where it is in the Savannah.

I love that.

And I always go. And I'm like, I'm going to remember the name of this. And then I don't. Like, every time, I'm like, I got to remember this time.

And there are, like, five restaurants in Denver that I love, but if you asked me the name, I'd be like, I don't know. I can just go there. Yeah, that's it. But I can't remember what it's called.

Y' all got the same. Same brain.

Yeah. Speaking of good burgers, though, mug shots. If you're in, like, the Mississippi, Louisiana. Any of those areas, mug shots is great.

We started this discussion talking about Flaming Amy's as well.

We're starting a foodie podcast on the network right now. You're listening to it, and you just.

Burgers on the rocks. Except Christie's is an impossible burger.

It's my turn, and I am dying because picking any of these things is very hard for me, so. But we're gonna just. We're gonna do it, so. Only because it's been recently on my mind. But my favorite book for the moment is Jane Eyre, and Jane Eyre, you have to be, like, in a dark and stormy kind of mood. Slash cabin or castle or something, you know, needs to be dark and moody because it's good.

Just where we usually hang out. Those dark and moody. Castle.

Me.

Me here in Florida, it's really dark and moody.

But many castles and moors to hang out on.

So you want, like, a good, like, heavy wine. And my favorite wine is Capsov, because they're usually bold and. And good for that kind of.

Yeah.

Dark and stormy night. What is it? It's TV show. Next.

Yeah.

Yes. Okay. Oh, no. My favorite TV show is. We're gonna say Lost again for this. I love Lost. And I mean, it has to be, like, Coors Light or something, like Lost.

You need Dharma beer. I feel like Dharma Initiative beer was a Coors Light.

I was gonna say, like, the Dharma Initiative had a beer. And I. It was. It was probably just Coors, you know, something real basic, so. And plus, you don't want to get too drunk during that show or you will have no idea what is happening or where you are for any of that.

The smoke monster comes up, and you're just, like, tingling. Whatever.

And then my favorite movie is Dazed and Confused, which is. Feels like I need another beer. But if it's a cocktail, it's got to be a good party cocktail. And so Like, I'm leaning towards Jungle Juice for the millennials out there.

Yeah.

Because that's what. That's what we would have had.

My wife introduced me. Jungle Juice. It's great.

Mad Dog 2020.

I. So on our other podcast, this is Mike Ecology and known as Josh with the bad opinions. And it was great because for a while we had another Josh, and he was Josh with the good opinions.

Oh, okay.

So I just throw out there Josh with the bad opinions. Loss might be my least favorite thing I've ever seen.

That's the worst opinion, Josh.

That's a bad opinion.

I got like, five episodes in, and I was like, why am I watching this? Like, I just couldn't figure out why I was still watching it. So I just.

What if we just. What if Christy and I just left and that's it. The other red button on the bot in the bottom of the trailer, like, bye.

Like, bye.

The other bad opinion I have to throw out to, like, oh. Because I feel like I was like. I was like manly beers. I like stouts. So I just gonna, like, share my other bad opinions to show how, like, absolutely not that. Like, that's just not me. I love really fruity cocktails and, like, with wines. I have such a hard time with wine unless it's like, super fruity and just like, basically juice. And it's like, why are you even bothering? Yeah, I know. That's a terrible opinion. Like, I'm like, that's awesome.

You had me on the cocktail. I'll do a fruity cocktail. That's a. That's bad theology.

Well, that's where I'm like. Like, I've literally. I'm sit there at a bar, and you'll either see me like, like a giant, like, pint of, like, a dark beard. I'm like, yeah. Or sometimes it's like Appletini easy on the teeny for the. For the scrubs.

The scrub. I was gonna say I love it.

I'm like, it's fine.

If you had made it cocktail and TV show, you are immediately Appletini easy.

On the zero options.

Like, that's just it.

That was the first drink I ever ordered after I turned 21 with Appletini Easy on the teeny.

Wedding. And I didn't even real. I was like, oh, I'm 21 now, and I was at a wedding. And then I went with this. It was. Anyway, I didn't know what. What to order. And the guy said, Order a 7 and 7. And I went, I want a 7 and 7. You know, tried, actually, and I have. No. I still. Honestly, I'm not really sure. I think seven up, but I don't really know what it was.

Seagrams. Seagrams and 7up.

Yeah. I also wasn't ID'd that day, and I'm still upset about it. Like, I was turned 21, and they didn't, you know, like, what are you.

And I said it, like, in the most, like, I should be Id'd way, because I was like, I guess I'll have a seven.

I'll have a seven and seven. Yeah.

All right. I'm gonna be TJ and get on the. On the rails with the first question that we're actually supposed to ask. One of the best ways we found to engender church unity, Christian unity, whatever, is to hear one another's stories. So I was just wanting to see if you guys could kind of share some about your history, relationship with, like, church, faith in general. We've had Leah on before. She's talked some about it, but I don't think we got the full picture. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna start with Christy, and then we'll get a. I don't know, maybe the full story of Leah Robinson's relation to faith. Yeah, we'll see. But let's start with. Let's start with.

I'm a Buddhist.

Perfect.

Yeah. I grew up in. In. My parents were Christians, but they had become Christian, like, not terribly long before I was born. And so they weren't necessarily entirely sure of what kind of Christians they wanted to be, I guess. And so we moved churches a lot. So I didn't grow up really entrenched in any denomination. We went to a whole bunch of different ones. And then my parents will also. We didn't go to church during football season at all. So I thought that there just wasn't church during football season, which will tell you a lot about, you know, me as a person. But I went to a Christian school, and so also my parents felt like that was enough church, so I wasn't really involved. It was a lot of. I mean, you get a lot of church at Christian schools. So crazy. But I wasn't in a youth group or anything like that. So I was kind of. I guess I believed in Jesus, and I was, like, real into it personally, but not connected to any kind of church community or anything like that until I went to college. I was in college. I was in Campus Crusade. And I think that was the first time that I was like, here I'm in a thing, and But I got kicked out.

You got kicked out of Campus Crusade?

I got kicked out. Well, I got kicked out of leadership.

You got kicked out of it?

How'd you get. Yeah, I got kicked out of it. I got kicked out of leadership. Specifically, I was smoking the wacky tobacco.

I. Well, it's legal in Colorado, so I'm not even being illegal.

It is legal in color. It was not then, but, no, I wasn't. That wasn't it. I had the audacity to tell them that I thought their Bible studies were stupid.

I mean.

Yeah, because they only had. And this might just have been my chapter. I don't really keep up with it. But they only had one Bible study, and you had to do it every year. And so it was the same Bible study every single year. And I was like, this is pointless. I don't want to do this again. And I was taking a class that was a night class during the time that my Bible study met, and they. They told me that I needed to drop the class so I could go to Bible study. And I told them that that was incorrect. So I was. So essentially, they told me I could either drop that class or I could no longer be part of leadership. And I was like.

Good for you. Good job.

So, yeah, so after that, by the.

Way.

I, again, kind of found myself not really rooted into church. I didn't find a church that I really felt did much in terms of. Of, like, helping me spiritually until after I went to seminary. And I didn't really go to church during seminary, if I'm being very honest. But again, I was in seminary. Like, you're in seminary, you're in seminary. And then when I moved to Glasgow, I needed a place to go and make friends and feel connected because PhD programs in the UK can be a little isolating. And so I found an Episcopal. It's a Scottish episcopal Church called St. Mary's and I made really amazing friends there. And I also kind of rediscovered, or I guess maybe discovered for the first time a. A feeling that, like, church did something for me. And I. I really like all of the high church elements and the kind of routine and the connection to history and stuff like that. So we had a lot of Prosecco, and they had a glitter cannon that we would shoot at the portrait of Mary on Easter. So, yeah, it was great. I can send you a video.

Yeah. I grew up Pentecostal, and I really love high church now. I still love my, you know, my Pentecostal roots and church unity stuff. But, yeah, I. When I Was at Wilmington. Also went to crew, but, like, I went to their regular services because that's where the pretty girls were. And then, like, I went to the Bible study once and was like, ah. And then I started going to a different Bible study because I didn't like theirs at all.

Yeah, that's the.

Actually where, like, the group. I would do, like, the weekly small group meeting stuff is where me and Christian really connected, ironically.

Yeah.

And the funny thing is I don't have a bad story about that experience. Even though I'm not conservative Christian anymore. Christian is still conservative Christian and does have bad stories about that group. But that's his stories to tell, I guess.

Yeah. I mean, I, like, I made a lot of wonderful friends while I was in crusade and that I'm still friends with to this day. But we all got kicked out at some point.

Kicked out of something together. Really broken brings, you know, builds bond.

A lot of bonding.

Yeah.

I won't tell their stories about it at the moment, but there's some fun ones. Yeah.

Yeah. All right, well, Leah, it's. It's your turn. I think when we've had you on before, you've gave us little, like, snippets of how, like, you at one point were in a Baptist church and, you know, some of your teaching stuff where you've been at colleges. But I don't think we ever just, like, heard your story. I don't even know if I've just heard your story because it's very rare. Hey, bud, what's your story?

Drank red wine and we're like, we love Ray. And here's my story.

Who knows what came up? Well, this is very late that day.

It was. And also, I will say, Christy was outside, and I remember it was you and Nicole inside. And all this stuff was happening outside that I found out much later.

This was. Yeah, this was that night. There was a lot going on that night.

You and I were having a wholesome conversation about Star wars and outside. Something else was happening outside. And then later, Christy was like, oh, my gosh, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, me and Joshua were just being really sweet inside and talking about Star Wars. I don't know.

I feel like the inside. The inside party was like, a really serious, like, you know, community building party. And the outside party was like.

Like, we talked about our partners.

A whole bunch was, like, phased and confused. Like, it was like, truly, I.

For those who don't know, I'm like adhd and I feel like I present. Like, I'm an extrovert But I'm very introverted and I push myself every beer camp. Like, it's really hard for me to do those events. So I was outside for a while and drinking, and I was talking to Nick and I heard some stories and it was, like, wild. And I'm like, this is a lot of fun. And then eventually I got to where I'm like, I've drunk to be able to handle this many people. And then I went into.

My husband has a very similar personality to yours. Joshua Christie's met and can attest to this. So I'm fairly used to, like, talking to people who have. And you came in and I could tell your battery was at like, 2. So I just was like.

Yeah, because I was going to go into bed, but then I was like, this is Dr. Leah Robinson. How often am I going to get a chance to talk to. Like, I really did. Like, in my head back especially then I was like, I'm not going to just talk to Leah whatever I want. Like, there's no way this is happening again. And I feel like we're friends, and it's great.

We are friends. You're in my phone, which.

Awesome.

That says. That says a lot. Your name is in my. If you are in the geeks, as I call you. And yeah, actually Will is texting me right now. I can see it on my computer. Just so funny. He's still trying to organize that. That thing. That's going to be four weeks away.

Yeah. Three years ago, I would not believe that I have you and Tripp's number in my phone. I would be like, you're on something and maybe need help.

Oh, and here we are.

And it's a.

Well, here's the deal, and this is a testament to you, Joshua, is that not everyone's in my phone. And I don't respond to everyone. And honestly, Chrissy will tell you if you get a response from me within, like, 4, 48 hours, it means that I actually really like you.

This is bad.

Thank you.

This is just true fact. Yeah.

Yeah. So anywho. So, yeah, I grew up in Georgia. We've talked about that. I think in north Georgia. And I came from a long line of religious people, so this was not really like. I mean, it's north Georgia, so, like, there wasn't really a choice. Probably like you, Joshua, I'm guessing, is that you just were born. It's very David Copperfield. You were just in the church. So the. There's only two churches in my town, and that was a Methodist who were the dirty, dirty liberals and then the Southern Baptist. So we went to the Southern Baptist Church growing up. And my parents, I will say, were. Were pretty. Like, they. They're all. Their religion was almost being Southern more than it was being religious, if that makes sense. Like, you didn't really have to be evangelical because no one was anything else. Like, it wasn't really that, but they cared a lot about, like, appearances and, like, how you presented and that kind of thing. And. And so while it may be through the lens of religion, it was a lot more like, you know, being this person, this. This sort of presentation, as it were. And then I went to college and I decided I was an atheist for a while, except I was a really bad atheist because I know. I know it was really intense at my Christian school.

She shaved her head.

This is turning out to be like a really good, like, Firefly kind of movie, you know, like CCM people movie. This is what it sounded like. We can get there.

One of my ever said I look like anyone. This may be a different show. But said I look like the girl from Firefly. I had a student come in and look at me and go, you're that. You look just like that girl. And I'd never seen that show. Like the Space show.

Sorry. Oh, I wasn't thinking like that. I was. I used the wrong name. I said Firefly, but I was thinking of that one. Like, what's like Fireproof. That's what it was. That one, like, annoying.

Oh, no.

Jesus.

Firefly.

Like the space show of your marriage. Yeah, the Firefly. The space show was good. That was different. That's.

Well, I have a student, you know. You know it's real when they, like, stop in their tracks and they look at you and they're. They were like, it's like, oh, my God, you look just like this girl. And later I looked and I was like. I mean. Yeah, I could see it, I guess. Anyway, so I went to college. I. I wasn't really in the kind of. I really spent college trying to. People always talk about deconstruction, reconstruction. So a lot of my, like, college was like, I guess, deconstruction, but, like, I. Again, it was a very cultural religion that I was a part of. So it was more just like I drank alcohol and I did other things that, you know, was not perhaps what was we were supposed to do. And so, you know, it was all of that sort of stuff. So then I went. I had a professor named Rob Nash, and he taught me, and I was a psych major because I didn't want anything to do with religion. And he was like, you're really good at this. You need to be a religion major. So I ended up double majoring. And then he was like, you should go. I got into UGA to study psychology for a master's. And he basically was like, I'll get you a full scholarship if you go. He didn't say that, but he was like, I'll. We'll get you funding. Because he's. That's illegal to say what he just. What I just said, but he was like, I bet we could get you funding if you go to Mercer, hilariously enough. And so he did. I applied and I got funding and I went to Mercer and then just kept on. I fell in love with theology and history of. Of religion and stuff like that. And so I kept on and went.

And got my PhD.

And now, hilariously, I co teach with Rob Nash at Mercer University. Yeah, I've come full circle. So, yeah, I mean, my, My relationship with religion has always been. It's just always been there. It's sort of like this thing. It's. It has been more of a. It's less of a negotiation about whether God existed or not or whether I was a part of the system, and more about learning for myself. Because at one stage, I remember he told me, and this is what got me. He said, if you want. Because I. I was like, I hate all this stuff that's so oppressive to women. They tell me I can't prove preach. Like, that's ridiculous. Like, I'm smarter than most of these guys. Like, this is so dumb. And he goes, well, you can't, you can't fight the system if you don't know the system. And I remember, I was like, you're right. I'm gonna go and get a PhD in theology. So anytime anyone comes in here and says the Bible says that you can't talk, I'll be like, well, let's chat about that. Yeah, let me get my professor hat. Or that you can't do, blah, blah, blah. And he was right. And so here I am. Yeah.

Yeah. TJ and I have talked about this a few different times on the show because it's like, it's so weird to us because we grew up, like, very conservative Pentecostal, but church got a prophecy, and because we grew up in it, it wasn't weird to us. But now I'm like, man, it's so strange because it's like biblical inerrancy, all this stuff, but they have Women pastors. And it's just never was a question for us. And then we started hearing it from other people and we're like, what do you mean?

All these denominations, my whole life, they pick and choose. Like, if I started, like, raising my hands above my waist in my Southern Baptist church, people would think I was possessed by the devil. Which in your church is probably very common.

Yeah. Well, I mean, even, I think with me.

Yeah.

Because I. I was never rooted in church, but I always. I mean, I never even went through an atheist phase. I was like, God is real and I love Jesus. I don't know about all these other people out here. I don't know about connecting it to an organization. Commitment issues. So commitment issues. Both to choosing a book.

Yeah.

Also to choosing a church.

Choosing things. Her and Christian podcast. It'll be five hours long.

I don't like making decisions. But like, yeah, it was. It wasn't so much that I didn't ever know what I believed in.

God.

That was always fine and. And well and good. But it was like every time I just felt like churches were, you know, weird or doing things that was because of them and their particular ideas. But, like, wouldn't make any sense somewhere else.

Until she saw the glitter cannon. And then it all.

I saw that glitter cannon and I was like, you guys know my soul and I am here.

Yeah. I mean, I think all denominations are picking and choosing and the idea that they're not as. I don't think, like, even historically, like, you could argue that they're not. Like, I.

Some are just self aware.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And so now I'm like, people will say I never. I didn't go through the high church phase that y' all too did. Even though I grew up in low church, low ritual church, I find the high church to be. It just doesn't fit. I. I don't know. It's a lot of pomp and circumstance, so I don't like that. But I also don't like the happy clappy. Like, I would not do well in a Pentecostal church either. I have to find like a middle between that somewhere.

Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting because, like, with TJ and I, tj, I think had that, like, that's culture. That's what it is. So I don't feel like he got like, to him, he never had like a toxic environment with the church, so he's able to be still that Pentecostal thing. Still have different beliefs than them. And it's like, it's fine it's not like a big deal, but, like, I was very much. Because I'm already just someone who hyper fixates. It's part of, like, ADHD stuff in, like, the Pentecostal circles I was in because I was in Assemblies of God for a little bit before I went back to church. Got a prophecy, and it's all, like, emotion driven, all this stuff. And I was very much, like. I kind of had, like, a Paul moment, I think, in the last, like, few years, because I was the one that was like, hell is real, and you guys are telling me lying is a sin. And he just lied. What are we doing? We're just letting people go forever in eternity. And, like, I was freaking out all the time about it. And then eventually I started learning better theology and calming down a bit. And then I say, better theology. You know, unity. I.

People who agree.

But for me, I think it's better. In my opinion. It seems to be smarter to me.

But, I mean, I did write a.

Book, and I've calmed down a lot, and that's where I had to go to a different church.

Yeah.

And I just happen to know Will, and I'm like. And I could be in Will's church. What do you mean? So, yeah.

Yeah.

The Lutherans, I feel like, are good. Maybe that in between. I was talking about, like, there's a little bit. Yeah.

Seem to be like, we care a whole lot, but we don't necessarily care. If you want to care. Like, if you don't want to care, that's fine. Like, I took a pushy.

I feel I took it like it was like a personality test, but it was going to tell you what denomination you should be in. And it said Lutheran because you value intellect and, like, you know, those kinds of things. And I was like, okay, so the Lutherans are the smart ones, and that's.

Always the ones that drink the most beer.

They do drink the most beer, and I love them. I just have never found a Lutheran church that I've, like.

I don't know that I've even been to one. So I'm talking out of my.

Oh, it is a good middle road. If they're not, go to Chapel Hill.

And visit Wills Church.

I was gonna say if Will Rose. I will go to Will Rose's church. Whether it's. If he wants to happy clap, I will happy clap all down the aisle.

You know, that would be an interesting thing to see. But that's off the rails again, trying to be T.J. i am.

So we're doing it again. It's okay.

Okay, I'm gonna package some questions together. So you guys have Theology on the Rock. This is now part of the MSL Podcast Network. Super exciting. Just curious if you guys.

I'm happy to be here.

Give, like, a quick elevator pitch. What is Theology on the Rocks? Why did you start the podcast, and why do we still do it? I love it, so I'm glad you still do it. I know your motivations.

We both laughed the same way when you said, why do you still do?

I don't know. Sometimes I ask that about myself, and then I'm like, now I feel like I'm too involved to quit.

It was because Chrissy and I are the same person, basically. And so we both laughed at the same way at the same thing.

I can. I. I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell you what motivated me, because it was originally, I reached out to Leah, and I was like, we should do this. And I'm gonna tell you very honestly that it was because I had just watched a bunch of episodes of Drunk History, and I thought it looked like fun. And so I was like, how can I recreate this in my life? So that was. That was really what?

Like, I forgot that that's.

I was like, yes, I want to make a podcast that's Drunk History, but we're theologians, so we'll just talk about theology instead. And she was like, sounds great. I'm there for it. So that's. That is the story of how it started.

I love it. I love it. Ironically, whole church is, like, accidentally, I feel like, has been a picture of my, like, deconstruction, reconstruction stuff, because, like, I started it right after I got, like, kicked out of ministry because I was, you know, whatever stuff. And I was like, I still need to do ministry. I have, like, this itch. And I'm like, we'll just do a podcast about unity. That'll be super easy. I won't get in trouble. It'll be fine. And I was wrong. And here we are, seven years, and unity isn't easy. Unity is hard.

Unity is hard. Yeah.

Quick topic to talk about.

I did say something whenever I was on a podcast with Trip Fuller and Tom Ward. I said he was saying he got kicked out of a church for affirming LGBT stuff. And I was like, well, at least she got kicked out. I never got let in to preach as a woman. And then it just got really quiet. But I was like, oh, that was supposed to be kind of a joke, but everybody just got really. If you listen to that, Podcast. Everybody goes quiet. And I was like.

I. I love those moments where you think it's a joke and everybody else thinks it really serious. Well, I've a dark sense of humor.

You know, I'm a. I'm ordained, so I've gone through. But I realized, like, some people are like, oh, that is bad. And I'm like, well, yeah, it is.

Yeah, it's both bad. Yeah. No, but I think, too, like, why we still do it is because Leah and I just want to hang out and talk to each other all the time.

For sure.

I get that.

That there are two people listening. I just need you to know that, like, we. We have very low expectations of ourselves, I guess.

Or when you're like, are you factoring me in? Like, in your mind, am I half of your audience?

Yeah. Essentially, we're doing this for Josh.

We.

We were like, bryant listens to us.

Because he sends this message.

He'll be like, I listen to your podcast today, and here are my thoughts.

It's great.

I love it. Keep doing that, Bryant. But, like, yeah, we just assume that it's like an audience of two. And so it's really just an excuse for us to chat to each other.

And then we look at the numbers, and we're like, oh, God.

Well, and then people will come up to us and be like, I listen to your podcast, and if you ever have said that to us and you immediately thought that we looked horrified, it's because that's a moment where we realize that people are listening.

We're not just talking to each other anymore.

Yeah. Like, oh, this is on the Internet.

Well, I do this.

We're very glad for them, but we just don't.

Yeah, but that should give you a little insight into the podcast, is that the podcast is about theology. We do have a drink that we have each week. We used to take suggestions. We still do. Except some of y' all are sadists and.

Yeah. Die. Yeah.

So, you know, but we. We chat the way that Christy and I chat. If we're in the same room there. That's why we don't really edit. Well, we don't edit it because we don't know how. Like, if you're Joshua Knoll and you meet one of us at beer camp, you would have the same conversation that you're hearing on the podcast, and that's the real hope. And sometimes it's very theology heavy, and then sometimes it's. It's. I think a couple weeks ago, we just talked about the fact that I got bored during A snowstorm. And Stuart cut all my hair off. Yeah.

Yeah.

I, like, for, like, 45 minutes.

I was like about that for a while. I feel like, too, one of the goals that we had was, was realizing that a lot of our friends find us, like, when they ask theology questions, and we're a little tipsy that we're more entertaining to listen to than if we're, like, in teacher mode. And so we were like, well, if we just make it a super casual podcast, we can either talk about theology or we can talk about, you know, one episode, there was a lot of talk about our animals pooping. I don't know.

Oh, my God. It was a whole thing.

Sounds great.

It was a whole thing. You know, you just get what you get because we have no other way to do that.

Also, people don't realize Christy and I talk, like, via, like, chat, like, every day, pretty much. Like, if we don't hear from each other, that's kind of a weird.

Yeah.

We typically don't always see each other, except for this one time each week. We're, like, face to face, and so then we're just like, oh, my God.

So funny.

We're also both really extroverted and so, like, feeding off of being just so excited to be talking to each other.

You should see my husband whenever, who's a very introverted ID person when Christy and I are around, it's like he just fades into the wall.

He does that Homer Simpson just going back into the bushes. But, like, in a good way.

You can tell he loves it because, Joshua, you and I were talking about this at the beginning. Is he. His battery gets low really quick. So for. For. It's almost like. It's like a play date for kids all of a sudden. I get play dates now because he'll, like, shove me to Christy and be like, y' all go play. And he's just, like, drinking a bourbon in the back, just being like, yep, y' all are on your play date.

See, my wife has a friend like that, but I just kind of, like, go to the office and edit, podcast, play on the steam day. You know, whatever. It's great. I like it.

I need him to be present in the room, though, because we're really hilarious.

I know. We really want people to watch us. That's the other thing is that we're very.

We're super humble, and so we need.

The most humble podcast on the Internet.

Yeah, it is the most.

You should advertise that.

And we. We. Someone to witness our humbleness.

We want there to be an audience.

Humility that demands an audience.

I love that. We should make a T shirt. Humility that demands an audience.

Our new kids.

Oh, my God, that's great.

Oh, man. Yeah. So. So this. This is why y' all do it.

Exactly the same. Yep.

All right, I'm gonna do two quick games before asking, like, one or two little questions, and we'll wrap up. Okay.

Okay.

So rude. Well, you know, I. I sleep.

It's like you edited or something.

Oh, man. Okay, first. First, I want to see how your podcast relates or absolutely doesn't relate to the other shows on the Amazon Podcast Network. So I don't even know if you all know what all shows are on there. I don't ever remember them all, which is terrible. I should, but I don't.

I know the one I'm on. I know the ones I'm on.

I'm gonna go through here. Your matter matters.

Oh, we do know your matter matters. That's true.

And we know Systematic Ecology in the whole church podcast and the whole church podcast, obviously.

And maybe it.

I don't know the titles for any of the others.

Yeah, I'm gonna go through. Tell you what I guess is about, and you guys either tell me, like, find a way that your podcast relates to it or contracts to it, whatever, or just be like, yeah, there's. There's no correlation here.

So we'll find a correlation.

But we'll be.

Try to be honest.

Church podcast. What we're on right now, Church unity.

I think, you know, we also. Leah and I disagree about a number of topics, and we'll occasionally have little debates and stuff. So we like to find, you know.

Where it's like a cage.

Yeah. Like, disagreements can still be in community and, like, you can get along. So. Yeah, we're about unity. Unity is great.

Yeah, we're into. We're into it.

Well, let's alternate. Let's alternate. I'm gonna throw the next one to Leah. So she's on this other podcast, Systematic Ecology. I guess we. It's like ecumenical work in engaging pop culture or something like that. Pop culture stuff.

Yeah, it's the worst. No. No connection whatsoever. Yeah, I mean, I think that's what Christy and I do most of the time is each week we're talking about something. Some topic that's in our lives of late. It's been quite Politics heavy as opposed to pop culture. But we absolutely talk about pop culture, too. I'm going to go see Wuthering Heights this weekend. And me, too. She wants to. I Mean, I feel like there's a lot of people gonna be at Weathering Heights this weekend. Yeah.

I have no desire to see it. I just love the movies. And my wife hates the smell of popcorn, so I rarely get to go to the movies. So when it's something she wants to watch, I don't care what it is. I'm going for the sake of being at the theater. Theater. Like, I don't.

Hugh hates popcorn. I'm just excited. One free popcorn.

I love popcorn so much.

I love popcorn. I could eat so much popcorn.

This is.

You guys are the host of Theology on the Rocks. So we're gonna skip that.

Yeah.

Oh, yes.

You know, doesn't seem familiar.

We have nothing to do with ourselves.

Kung Fu pizza party. Is Brandon Knight talking about martial arts media? So this goes to Christy. Is there any way you could find.

Yeah, I'm. I'm on this. We both are world religion professors.

I know. I said we're gonna. We're gonna squarepack around.

Hold it. We teach about daoism, and occasionally daoism will come up, but it's not. Well, so I am gonna say mostly no. But. But there is the tiny connection.

All right, all right. Let nothing movie. We already mentioned as Christian, Ashley, going through the Bible kind of a chapter at a time. Yeah. Bible. Bible podcast.

We talk about the Bible. It's probably not.

Not the same way.

Same way.

He's a far more conservative than you guys. I feel.

I don't. The reverend might not be the same way, but I mean Bible. But I think sometimes we do say we'll let the Bible scholars do that, because I think we do. We do fall back more on theology, the interpretation more than the Scriptures.

I like that. We have. We actually have multiple Bible podcasts on the network, and they're very much don't agree with one another. And I kind of like in a.

World of pdm, why do you have. You don't need. You don't need to. People have already done that. Don't go chapter by chapter. We got commentaries shelf.

Some people don't like to read. Okay. My seminary life. Brandon Knight started off as him going through what he's learning in seminary, and now it's just him as a continual lifelong student of theology. Is there any way that could possibly.

Not at all. We don't like theology at all. No. I mean, that's also basically what we do because Christy and I have been.

To seminary as well, so we've both.

Been to seminary so we could talk about our similar life, but no Like, I mean, we have all of the time, one of us will be like, oh, I'm reading this book, you know, and I want to talk about this or just kind of bring it up. We've been chatting a little bit about some of the stuff that Leah is. Is currently working on, her latest book. And so, you know, bringing up different issues there. Yeah, that happens.

Yeah. Yeah. I think Brandon's probably just, like, a little right of center, and I feel like you guys, in my mind, you guys are, like, left of center. Like, I don't think of you guys as, like, like, extremely progressive. Like, I'm like, you guys are progressive.

But not, like, Christie's a little, I think, more left than me.

But yeah, I think it's interesting because I think that on some things, though.

Because we're a little more left than you. On some, I would say, like, socially.

Or politically, I'm more left than I'm. I'm more. You guys pick and choose, but also.

We know we do it.

I'm probably a little bit more conservative than Leah is. So, like, there's a lot of give and take there. Yeah.

All right. All right. Up next, your matter matters. That's Will Rose and Thomas Johnston, some Lutheran pastors talking about faith and science. Putting the. And there.

Yeah, I mean, we've. We've done. We certainly have done that. I think the way that Theology on the rocks works is it's. I mean, it is a. It's not. I don't want to say haphazard, but it is kind of. But if a topic comes up that's pop culture in our minds, we mostly just chat, as I said, on the day to day, and say, like, what's coming up? Like, we. I was talking to friend of the podcast, Nick Polk last night, just chatting back and forth about an article where he used some of my stuff in it and about interpretation and. Christine, I've been talking about Wuthering Heights, and then we also talk a lot about bad theology because that's the book that I wrote and, like, interpretations of the Bible. So we were like, what if we all just get on and talk about why these. Why people feel like they have to have the right interpretation of things because all these people are going mental about Wuthering Heights. So in. In summary, it's whatever kind of comes into our mind in a given day. And sometimes it is science stuff, especially when we had the. You know, a lot of stuff related to women's rights and things like that. Yeah, we also just had them on.

So if you Want to listen to them talk about their podcast on our podcast. Yeah.

Last week, this is like, that was a good podcast. Inception. Yeah.

We were so much more organized that.

Than most of the time we were a little bit.

Yeah.

All right, up next, Friday Night Frights. Christian Ashley, Joe Day are just talking about. I don't know, I don't even know how to word this right. Like, sometimes it's stuff that's paranormal. Sometimes it's just like cryptozoology. Sometimes it's like murder mystery stuff.

It's.

I don't know. It's Friday Night Frights.

Is this my turn?

Yeah. Ryan does and I are already doing this podcast.

I was like, Leah or something.

I can't remember. Dread, something. Dread Something.

Dread. He did just advertise it, and I can't remember what it's called, but Ryan does is great.

That's gonna be awesome.

Awesome.

Yeah, it's gonna be very cool. Leah is a big horror fan and she's very knowledgeable about horror. So we talk about horror and I love everything to do with, like, spiritual stuff and like, woo, woo. Like, that's okay.

Yeah.

So you want to talk about ghosts, I'll talk about ghosts with you. But if you want me to watch a horror movie, I will leave.

I told her I would tell her, like, because I wanted her to watch Alien Earth. So I was like, I'll tell you when things are gonna get, like, I'll time stamp it.

I still gotta watch that.

She's like, just watch these bits and pieces. And then Ryan does was like, don't watch it, Christine. And I was like, cool.

All right, up next, some joyful noises. There is no host. It's just whenever somebody sends us something or someone that's already on the network decides they want to record something about music, it just goes up. So it's a music podcast with no rhyme, rhythm, or reason.

I mean, I feel like Christy, I don't think we have to keep going back and forth. But see, this is the organized part. Christy actually is more organized than I am, which you would think, based on how I talk, I could talk my way out of a paper bag. But, like, she's way more structured.

You're all anxiety.

I drink a lot, so. But the emojelicals, I think is more that sort of a thing that you do. But Christy and I both have a deep, deep love of music, and we have differing styles of music. And sometimes it's funny, our differing styles, but we both hold to that very strongly. And Chris is on a podcast that is called Emojelicals.

Yeah. Which ironically, we're about to do an episode for some Joyful Noises with Josh Patterson and I and maybe TJ talking about some Midwest.

A lot of men.

That's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. Do some songs. Yeah. I mean, you guys want to join? Okay. Next is why I don't like Christian Ashley. Again, this is him talking about stuff that he doesn't like and going into, like, the substance of why he doesn't like.

Does he really have a podcast called Things I Don't Like? Yeah, I thought that was a joke.

He goes through because he takes the time to watch it, even if he doesn't like it. And we'll go through, like, right now he's been doing an anime and he's like, here's why I don't like it. Like, substantially giving reasons instead of just so interesting.

Leah and I really like to live and joy, so I don't know that we have.

Yeah, I mean, we talk about things we don't like.

Yeah.

Occasionally all the isms.

Yeah, we don't like the isms, but like.

Like murder. But we don't necessarily, like, relish it.

Yeah. But we do, like true crime.

We do.

We find ways.

We do watch a whole lot of true crime. Yeah.

Well, I think he does a good job of trying to steal, man the shows and stuff that he doesn't like and then talk about why it still doesn't work for him. I try to do that on whole church when it comes up because, like, it's hard. Would do a church unity podcast and never talk about stuff that I disagree with. So, you know. Okay. Yeah.

I mean, there's certain. We. We, again, we disagree with many, but.

I also think we don't try to be very neutral about it. That's not really our vibe. I don't. I think if we don't like it, like. And Christine, I'll disagree, but I think you're gonna know if we don't like it. And. Yeah, I think that's another thing about theology on the rocks is that we never. I appreciate what the whole church does because you're. You're attempting the, like, a unity thing. And I don't think that. That we do that. And so it's not for everybody. And that's okay. Like, I don't.

Yeah.

But I think we live through. And especially being women theologians and. And me being a minister, like, we've lived through enough of, like, accommodating for people who don't agree with us. And I think now we're tired of that a little bit.

Yeah. There's some conversations I'm just done having, so.

Although I have kept myself from saying curse words five times now, I've kept up in my head.

All right, next up, it's my podcast, Be Living Water, where I talk about different media, whatever things. Right now I've been doing, like, the Book of Daniel and Les Miserable. Talking about it from the perspective of, like, Christian daoism is, I guess, would be how I would describe that.

That's very cool. I mean, yeah, again, I think we, like, we do a lot of that. We did a. I think we did a podcast about Barbie. Right?

That's.

We did.

Yeah, we did an episode about. Yeah, so, like, we are big fans of, like, something like. And like Leah just said, we're have a little chat about Wuthering Heights and Wicked.

We did all. We did.

Yeah, we did episode on Wicked. And you can see and like, not just about them, but, like, theologically interacting with them. So. Yeah.

Nice, Nice. All right, the next one's the homily with Pastor Chill Will from Chapel Hill. It's literally when his producer, Joshua remembers to upload his homilies, sometimes they get put up in a podcast.

That's very cool. We don't do homily, so that's fine.

We can get well on to do a. I could do them. Homilies are so much easier. And then Baptist are great. I went to Baptist seminary and they. It was like three point sermon, and it has to be like 30 minutes. And I was like, okay. In the homilies, you just in and.

Out and you're like, last year, Sunday fell on me, May the fourth fell on a Sunday. So Will, of course, has a Star wars homily that's up there. And I had to put that on. That's awesome.

Yeah, that's amazing.

The Bible After Hours starts with kind of like a little bit of a satirical piece on evangelical Christianity. And then it's more of like a progress, progressive reading of the Bible as the. The show kind of goes on there. I do the voice work for that, but it's not my material and I don't agree with everything, but I'm okay voicing stuff I don't agree with because I'm weird.

You're kind. That's nice.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I've not listened to it, but, I mean, I. We certainly lean on a more progressive interpretation of the text. Not even. Well, I would say liberative, but that's my.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, Definitely more liberation, progressive version of the Bible.

So it's the right. The right version.

The right version. The correct one.

All right, last up, the newest member of the network, actually, I think is a little bit newer than y'. All. I think Paige and Pixel it is. Paige will one week tell Pixel about a book she recently read, and then the next week, Pixel will tell Paige about a video game that she played.

Oh, interesting.

It's a lot of fun. They're completely off the rails and a ton of fun. They actually, like. They kind of remind me of you guys. Not, like, completely. I feel like they're more off the rails somehow.

Oh, that's.

Chaos.

Can you imagine if we were more off the rails? That sounds great. I love that.

That's the most one we. I. I would probably listen to quite actively.

Yeah.

I don't know anything about video games, though.

I think they're. They're. I think they're both non binary, and at least one of them has mentioned that they're non binary on the show. And I'm like, that's really interesting. And it has me really wanting to play Silent Hill too, because they. Silent Hill. They reviewed a Silent Hill game, and then they were like, this game is awful, but the rest of the series is wonderful. And I'm like, well, I don't want to play the awful one you reviewed, but the premise is cool. So I want to go one of the fun ones.

Like, one person's awful is another person's great.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, Last game. And this is quicker because of what it is. Oh, God, it is the patent. Whole church speed round. I'm gonna alternate again. I'm gonna ask you guys a series of questions. You have to answer in one sentence.

Yeah.

If you make it a. If it has to. If it's a run on sentence, you have to tell us the punctuation.

We need to know semicolon.

If you don't think you can answer it in a sentence, you could just say skip, and that's fine.

Okay.

All right, who wants to go first before I cue the music?

I will go first because Chris is giving me the look of death.

All right. All right, here we go.

Ready?

Okay.

Who.

How do you view the importance of scripture?

Important in the sense of how you interpret it.

All right. Christy, how would you describe the atonement theory that you hold to?

Oh, it's reconciliation, atonement.

I like it. I like it.

Okay.

All right. Leah, do you believe open theism or processed theology necessarily undermines classical theism?

I think these Words are not words that the theologians use.

That's fair.

All right, is sorry to everybody. That's a sentence about this.

All right, Christy, is the resurrection. Is the resurrection historical, theological, or both?

Both.

All right, back up to Leah.

One word.

Yeah, that's. That's even better. That should give you one, two sentence, like. I think it earned you time.

It earned me time.

Good.

Yeah. All right, Leah, can nicene trinitarianism survive antimate metaphysical trends with the.

What trends? The. What was the trends?

Yeah, I feel like it's.

Say that again.

I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote this.

The Trinity. Can I just say the Trinity is made up. Yeah, that.

That's a great answer. All right, Christy, what governs doctrine most? Scripture, tradition, or experience?

I. I think that it has to be. Be a partnership between the three.

I like it. I like it. Methodist. Is deconstruction. Is deconstruction a pathway or a destination, Leah?

Pathway.

Yeah. You know, I made these where you don't even have to use a sentence. Why they do that. That's. That's cheating. All right, Christy, I had a lot.

To say about process.

Is sin personal, systemic, made up, or a combination of process, personal and systemic?

It is a combination of personal and systemic.

Great.

Like it? I like it. I'll have you both answer the last one then. Which of the seven sacraments, if any, do you hold to? And I have them up here if you want me to read them off. Baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders in matrimony.

Well, I feel like, what do we.

Mean by hold to it? Like, which ones do we participate in?

Do you participate in or do you view as sacrament?

Because we get to the two. Baptism and the Eucharist are the two that I think are sacraments and participated.

I mean, I think they're all also made up. So, I mean, they're lovely. They're really lovely, but they're all just social constructs. So, I mean, I don't. Yeah, I don't think any of them are sacred in. In and of themselves.

Yeah, I.

Sorry. Sorry, husband. Sorry. Matrimony.

I hear you. I. What's I think's interesting is, you know, the way that it's. A lot of people will describe, especially in the Catholic Church or Lutherans, weirdly enough. It's like sacrament has to be something Jesus commanded you of, which by Baptists are usually like only these two. Jesus didn't say the other stuff. What I love is TJ's answer is always. Well, they forgot feet washing.

I just love that.

Which is a very Pentecostal answer.

I think there's a difference between sacred, like, divine sacred, and community sacred. Like, as a community, do we hold these as sacred? In which case I agree with Christie about baptism and Eucharist. Are these actually sacred, I. E. That they have come from the top down to me. No, but I get. I get the response.

I get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think.

I think that where I come in is, again, this. And this is what I meant earlier by, like, tradition and scripture, because we. It's not just that we can see Jesus being, like, he gets baptized and then he tells us to have the Eucharist, but. But instead, that's what, like, the early church starts doing very actively. And so there's a tradition beginning and, like, continuing that is important. Whereas, like, marriage is great, but, like, not as a church, like you. That's not part of the church practice. You know.

So I'm out sacred anymore. I'm out. Marion Salem.

I don't. I think it might be one of those things like an Aaron Sea, where I'm like. I'm not sure if the term sacraments helpful, but. Yeah, if you're thinking about.

Yeah, I don't know.

Are sacred. Like, I consider all of these sacred. And I agree. TJ Feet washing, I also think is sacred. I've had some.

Well, and I think there's other things that we do that are sacred that aren't necessarily even on that list.

So.

Yeah.

You know, maybe.

I mean, this comes down to the definitions.

You know.

Yeah. Like, yeah, the classical theism. Christy and I just buck so much because it's not afraid that it's. It's been adopted.

Classical theism is not an accurate way.

It's. It.

I think I wrote that question at the speed round for this for. For you to fluster.

For us to get mad about it. Exactly.

Get to hear about it on the day.

I was like, I listened to them enough. If I'm gonna do a speed round, I have to include somewhere the line.

I made.

I made a comment.

People don't. It's not a thing.

It's not. We should some stage do a podcast where it's justly. And I yelling about the phrase classical theism.

The one.

The one where y' all yell about.

Classical one where we yell. Yeah, we'll get Josh and Tom on.

Well, actually, we're gonna be like, you guys, shush. We're gonna talk.

It's much like we've come full circle. Much like the witness. You are gonna witness us yell humility.

That demands an audience.

Yeah, humility. That you're our audience. The very fiber of your being.

So, talking about theology on the rocks, do you guys have a. Either a favorite episode or an episode that you were like. This really exemplifies why you should listen to our show. It doesn't have to be a favorite, I guess, but.

Oh, man.

One that you're like. This is like. This is what the algae on the rocks is.

Whoa.

Yeah. Me and the dog are just trying to fill me here so you have time to look through.

We always. I. I can do that for you. We always talk about the one where we. We. Which is. Is always a favorite. Where we banish Kill Mary. No, we banish Mary.

Date Mary date. I think.

Penny, what is your problem.

In the world? And she's mad about it.

But that one is always really funny, because when. When we talked about who we were going to banish, we. We really came together on that. And then someone asked us about it on the Hot Ones challenge. It was Tripp, Mark Driscoll, and. Oh, Thomas Aquinas.

What?

And the problem is, we both immediately banished Mark Driscoll, and then we were like.

And then I guess we're gonna date Trip. And now we have to marry Thomas Aquinas.

Christy, you said you were gonna marry Thomas Aquinas. I said I was gonna ask Alicia if I could. If I could just, like, sister wife with co. Married.

Yeah. Abusive.

The problem is, you guys have had. You guys had terrible choices for that. But for those who don't know, it is a common thing for. For TJ And I to say it's the whole church. Except for Thomas Aquinas. We do hate that guy. I occasionally like to add, except for Thomas Aquinas and Al Mohler. Oh, yeah, throw that one in there.

Yeah.

But that's because. Not because of beliefs even. I'm just like, his actions are just so not Christian that I'm like, yeah, this isn't. He's also not consistent with his own belief, so I kind of feel like he's doing it in bad faith. And I have a whole rant, but this isn't.

I actually do. I feel like our episode. That episode was really funny. And, like, I want to add in.

Wayne Grudo that are.

I don't know him well enough.

Our wicked episodes actually, I think, highlighted a lot of the theology that we're talking about, but also, like, the feminine friendship energy that I think we bring, which is something that I think With a lot of the podcasts that are, at least on some of the God. I have my God Pods mug. God Pods network. You know, while there are women who do certain podcasts, I think that the sort of friendship and also the friend disagreeing through friendship and talking about theology and, you know, talk about different things. I feel like the. The Wicked episode really highlighted that because you have, you know, Chris, you would think that Christy and I get along on everything. We get along on a lot of the fundamental stuff that I think friendship is based on. But, like, there are some stuff where she'll bring up yacht rock, and I'm like. Or the Winter Olympics. And I'm like, this.

Or the Trinity.

Or the Trinity. This blows. And I don't want to. I can't. I just. Just talk to me in nine days. You know how long it is till the Winter Olympics is over. Nine days. Why do I know that? Because I'm waiting.

I. Yeah. So if I were to just link one or two down below. You think the Wicked episodes in the show description.

I would say. I mean, I think the one where we banished. I'm trying to find the actual title of it, but the Wicked episode is, I think, a really good one. And then I would say, hold on. I'm trying to find the title of it. Where we banish Augustine and John. John Calvin to the island. Calvin, Augustine and Calvin.

I don't think.

They weren't a good time, Joshua. They just weren't a good time.

We banished them.

Keeping in mind the other options are date and Mary. So you really have to weigh that. It's not that we don't want to, like, read them. John Calvin didn't shut down, like, all the pubs in Geneva. So we're already.

Yeah, we were like, john, John can't.

Like, where are we gonna go for. He's gonna take me on a coffee date mid midday.

So boring.

Yeah, he's gonna be really mad about, like, short skirts and stuff.

It's also an early episode, so you can, like, compare and contrast.

Like, we were.

How things go.

The Redneck Martini episode is our first, so I would put those three, like, the Wicked, the banish Mary, the Redneck Martini, and the Redneck Martini was our very first episode, and that was a recommendation from Tripping.

Trip tried to kill us and he.

It's a North Carolina drink, and he tried to kill us and we did it. It's Mountain Dew. And what was it? Mountain Dew and vodka.

I mean, I try it. Why not?

I mean it. Go for it. It's Terrible.

It's Mountain Dew vodka, but I'd still do it.

And vodka. Yeah, it's Mountain Dew and vodka. Which Leah tried to.

That would be better.

And then she started shaking it. And then. So the opening of the podcast is.

That is me shrieking.

I. Like, she had told. I think we were on FaceTime or something. And so I saw it just starts exploding.

It does.

Because she's trying to be really professional.

And put it in the shaker. But I forgot that it was Mountain Dew.

We're both just like on the floor laughing.

I feel like it sets the 10. So those are the three I would put up.

Yeah.

All right. All right, cool. I. Yeah, I wanna. I'll say, like, for me too. For. For a while there, I was getting like, frustured frustrated with the network because I'm like, man, I keep wanting it to grow and I don't know how to grow a network because, like, I don't. I don't do this. And like, I don't know. In my mind I was like, we just need more shows and then I won't be as frustrated. And I think what happened was like. Because, like, now I'm like, it'd be cool if we got a couple more shows, I guess, but, like, I feel way more chill because I think you guys. And then Paige and Pixel added like that female energy. And I think that's really where I was. Like, I needed that. Like, I feel like maybe my frustration was it was just too many men, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't even like guys that much.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's not just your network. That's just. That's just kind of how there's a lot of that and there's a lot of straight, you know, says men, white men, doing theology. And honestly, are we just recreating the church here in the sense of, like, it's going to take a while to get some.

Yeah. Then the frustrating part, to me personally, and this might just be my own personal feelings. I said personal too many times. It's fine. The.

Okay.

I like, I equally get annoyed when the Theo Bros. Because I. I feel like even like progressives have the over. Like me and Josh might be Theo Bros. It's fine.

You are.

But like, okay, I. I equally get annoyed when they bring like female leaders on. And it's very clear, like, the purpose was to show that there are girls out there. And I'm like, this is just as cringy as you just having only dudes all the time.

From certain circles. Being the token lady.

Yeah, there's. There's token ship. That happens with a lot of that kind of stuff. Yeah.

But it depends on what kind of spirit, what spirit you do it for. And I think that's important. It's like, if you're like, you come out and you're like, hey, we're having you on. Because I recognize that there's a gap and I really want that. And I. But I also want your knowledge and, and your insights. And yes, you are a woman, but you're also a theologian and you're someone who, you know that that's different than just being like, there's a lot of, you know, swinging Richards over here and we could use some.

You're the only woman we know, so can you.

I try to use all the different metaphors for that.

I think the way you could tell too though, is like the things that annoy me. I think what it is, is they'll have like a girl as part of a thing, and then they never really invite the woman to speak. You know what I mean? So it's like you could tell based on like the posturing, even though you know it's audio, that it's like that. Yeah. Your intent was to show that you like women too, you know, and that's why I'm like, that was cringy and annoying because on Systematic Ecology, we did that where I was like, we have way too many dudes on. I'm not inviting another guy host. I am. We need a different perspective.

Yeah.

And then it wasn't like the first lady we saw. You're on the podcast. I was like, who do we know that we actually like talking to that meshes with our group because, like, it's kind of like a. The host there, its own tight knit community. I feel like on Systematic Ecology, so we're like, we have like a big following, I guess, but like, we kind of do it because we're friends at the same time and it's.

And also you need people on there that'll like. I mean, here's the thing about podcasts.

Tell Christian when he's wrong.

You have to talk. And I mean, I remember the first time I was on, I just was like, I'm just gonna treat this like it's theology on the rocks. Like, I'm just gonna talk. And I. If whatever one I was first on, I can't remember, but I probably was just like, no, you're wrong. And I think you need that, but you need confidence too. And I think what we see is to gender it as well. Is that oftentimes females or, you know, people of color or, you know, fill in the blank. You know, we. We aren't confident in our own voices sometimes because there's been a dominant voice, and that's not us. And so I think it's. It's sometimes difficult. You know, it's not just about finding a token fill in the blank. It's this idea that, you know, we have been taught throughout our own personal history to, you know, talk, don't talk, you know, and.

Or I think, too, it can turn into, like, oh, she talked too much, or she was too shrill, or she, you know, has a vocal frown. She got hysterical, or she got bossy or something.

Because when you see people who are having meltdowns, it's usually like the old, I have professor. Yeah, he's having a meltdown in the.

Corner, and there's a woman just looking at him like, yep, you have to be kidding me.

I think the worst thing I've done along these lines, I did Deliyah, though, I want to say that because it was so systematic ecology. She had been on an episode where he talked about aliens, and we had some, like, fun, good episodes. I was like, man, I want to invite her on as a host. But part of the thing, systematicology, is we have a lot of people from different beliefs and traditions and stuff, and, like, Christians, incredibly conservative. And I'm like, so I definitely set up an episode where I was like, me, Leah and Christian are going to talk about our favorite female protagonist. And I'm like, I know where this is going to go, and I'm going to watch it happen and see if they can be friends. That was. And I was like, this is awesome. This was great.

Yeah, I mean, it was. It was pretty easy because he just was like, I think this. And I was like, well, I think you're wrong. And he was like, okay, so moving on. And if you listen to it back, that was in real time, like, we're actually talking about it. And I was just like, I mean, he's not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change his mind. So it was just. But it was nice. And now we've done podcasts.

Yeah, it's so funny.

We've done more podcasts. We just did one the other day. Oh, the school spirits. And he was doing all out or something.

And, yeah, that was good.

It was a great episode. Now we're just like, once you get. That's what you find about, too, about people with different theologies is that you or political beliefs are fill in the blank. It's like once you've set the precedent and you're like, look, you're not oppressing me. I'm not oppressing you. I'm not going to change your mind, you're going to change mine. Let's just talk about something else. And that's, that can be unity in itself. Like, I really do think that.

Yeah, it's crazy because I do think listening. I'm like, you and Christian do have like a, like a kind of chemistry. Feels like the wrong word, but you know what I mean? Like, you guys bounce off each other really well. I'm like, this is awesome.

Well, when we start, I'm like, okay, so we're doing an hour. And he's like, well, it's you and I, so we'll probably go over. And I was like, you know, I think we're, I, I, yeah, absolutely. But I think it's because we had that basis of like, there's no elephant in the room. And actually, I think what you did was correct. Now, that's not going to work for everyone because we are, we're older and we feel more confident in our thoughts or whatever and we are used to meeting people who don't agree. But I do think you built a kind of foundation where now we're just.

Like, okay, yeah, well, maybe, maybe that's like a helpful unity advice for the episode. Like, that needs to be like a bell or something of like, sometimes you just gotta, like, get out there what you disagree about and move on. Like, it's fine.

I'm still gonna put Reverend Doctor on my tag. Yeah, don't worry.

You have to. Well, before I start doing our, like, our normal stuff, before we, like, you know, our normal ending stuff, we have a lot. For some reason. You guys have written, like, a lot of books. Or at least I know Leah's written books.

Leah has. Yeah.

More than one book.

Robot has a book, right? I do have a book.

Yeah, I know. I didn't make that up. Like, I know Chrissy has a book.

I have a book. Yeah.

I don't read as much as Josh, but I'm like, I know there was a book.

She does.

How, how many amongst the two of you are there now?

Well, yeah, so I have one that has published and Leah has. Yeah, 20. No, she's got three.

Three books. Three books out. I'm writing.

Number four is on the way. Number five is under contract, so. Yeah, yeah, she's.

Yeah.

So what's that. What's the name of your book? We can plug my.

Yeah, mine is called Wounded Images. It is a discourse about the doctrine of the image of God, the imago dei. And I use the literature from an author named Jean Reese, who wrote. Her most popular book was White Sargasso Sea, which is a retelling of actually the. So if you've read Jane Eyre, you know that Rochester keeps his wife in the attic. So it is from her perspective. But my book does not talk about that one. It talks about her other four novels. So it's just the ones that nobody knows about.

Can I tell you that I got.

That's not where I thought you were building.

I got. I got Jane Eyre in my head mixed with. When I first saw Wuthering Heights, and I thought, is Jacob Elder Baba gonna put Margot Robbie in the attic? Those two books got completed, and I was like, he better not put her in the attic somewhere.

Don't put her in the attic. It's like, don't put Baby in the corner.

But, yeah, don't put Margot in the attic.

Don't put her in the attic. Yeah, so, yeah, so it is literature and theology, which is my specialty. So, yeah, nice.

Maybe they'll talk about it on page and pixel. We get them. We got to get them over there. Just start sending them books.

They'll love scripture.

Every podcaster loves when you just send things and expect them to review books.

Yeah, yeah, I have a book.

Leah, Leah, you've got four out. One coming. Tell us something about what you've written.

Yeah, I have. Do I have three out of. We have three out, and I have one on the way.

I don't know how to count. So I don't have a doctorate. I have an excuse. I don't have a doctorate. I'm not expected to count.

That's why I put them behind me, so that I don't forget. Because I do forget. Yeah. So I've got my first book. It was based on my dissertation. It's called Embodied Peace Building. And it's really about. It's. It's quite niche. It's, you know, it's a PhD thing, but it's about Northern Ireland and peacebuilding and theology. It's, I will say, my most systematic work, actually, because it deals with the idea of reconciliation. And I even quote Karl Bart in it. Yeah. So that one's very. It's qualitative research, but it's. It's also very systematic. Then I wrote bad theology, which is gonna. I'm just gonna live with that forever, I think. And I set up this criteria for bad theology. That's my criteria. And I'd use some historic examples. Then I have the bad theology and Covid and that one is more contemporary stuff. And I still use the criteria that I had in the first one. And then my newest book is on the X gay movement conversion therapy, where I've interviewed some folks who've gone through that and I'm going to tell their stories from their perspectives and then construct. It's kind of constructive theology in the senses. I'm going to construct what they used in order to justify the practices and. And what they told them. And interestingly enough, I found. I'm finding that they use quite a Pentecostal means by which to. You spoke about Pentecostalism? It's very much a feeling and not. They emphasize the feeling and not thinking in their worship services.

Quote Frozen. Do they ever sing Conceal. Don't feel.

They should.

Yeah.

Because I will say, in addition to the bad theology, their endeavors are not very successful. So there's a lot of concealing. Yeah, yeah. That's out yet, though, right? The leadership.

That book's not out yet, is it?

It's not, no, but it'll be out. Well, it's due July 1st, which is the day before my birthday and, well, you can pray for me. So if I, if I like message you and I'm like, I can't do any podcasts for like two months, it's because I'm losing my mind.

That's. Yeah, that's fair.

Right?

I've. I've been waiting on that one though, because I, I was like, I want to get you on here to talk about that. But relevant.

It's really good. People. I've managed to get. I struggled for a while to get people to interview and then I got. It was a nice like kind of domino effect of getting people and the stuff is just unreal that's come. I mean, the information that I'm getting from them is. Is unreal. And they all have very different circumstances and. But the, the sort of themes that are coming out are. The theological themes are wild and the fact that it's still ongoing, those practices and still legal somehow. You can thank Albert, your friend Albert Mueller. He's not on the island yet.

Yeah, that's my two.

We're putting him on the island.

What was it that you did? It wasn't cast out. Why is my brain blinking right now? Banned.

We banished the island.

We didn't kill anybody. Those were the early days when we were trying to be nice.

Yeah.

We married, we dated, and we. We banished.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So good stuff. So John Calvin got banished real quick. And see, he's not a good time.

Yeah. I'm managing Al Mohler and Thomas Aquinas and everybody else. We can have unity. We will figure it out somehow. But not.

Augustine was a rough ride, though. He was. He was tough. That sounded not the way I wanted it to, but he's a tough read.

How about.

We'll say that he's a tough read.

Yeah.

I can find a couple things. Enough things that I agree with, that I feel like I could get along with him if I have to.

Yeah.

But on a date, See, this is romance.

No, not a date. Not that.

None of that's the problem.

Yeah.

This is not theological agreement.

No. This is like, do you want to hang out with this guy?

Do you want to hang out with this guy?

And I got to tell you, as a woman, I super don't want to hang out with Augustine.

I gotta say. I don't hang out with either.

You'd be like, you suck.

I'm a Lutheran. Who would not want to hang out with Martin Luther. I think that might be Martin Luther.

He'd just be tortured. He'd be like, the stuff he said.

I'm like, I don't know, man.

That's too like, do you want to listen to Dashboard Confessional and drink some beer? And I really.

Who would be great on Emojelicals is Martin Luther.

Martin Luther would be so good on Emojelicals. He. No. Yeah. I think we dated Gustavo Gutierrez. He made it. He's cute as well. So we. He made it.

I think my problem is if I hang out with somebody, I want it to be, like, low energy. And the low energy aren't the people that we write books about and remember, you know, like, that's why I'm friends with tj. Like, I might be high energy, but I want the people I'm around to be low energy because I want to not be. I.

That.

That basically was my marriage vows. So I understand. If there was two of me in a relationship, we would burn this house to the ground.

This is why Leah and I say that we're twin flames born from hell.

And we are friends, but we love each other.

I think murder, well, we would just die in implosion. I don't even think we would be.

Like tornadoes just in the middle of the living room.

I don't think it would be like, we would be.

We both just Feel like we would just.

Yeah. We were just like, so much that we would die. We would just implode.

See, I'm lucky. I have two best friends. One of the podcast world. So I get to say his name tj. And the other isn't. And I don't say his name. But my other best friend. That's not tj. We could not live together. It would not work at all. I know. Because we were college dorm roommate. Ish. We weren't even roommates. And I'm like, yeah, this. That wouldn't work. I feel like TJ and I could be roommates, and it would be fine. I don't think it would ever be a problem.

Tj. I like, I feel like I can be roommate with TJ because he just like, you want to go do this? I'd be like, no.

He'd be like, cool.

Bye.

He's so. Yeah.

Yeah.

Quite a bit at beer camp, and he really was just, like.

He was so.

St was 20, but. And was on, like, some real. Real, like, weed. Just. And I'm not saying that. I'm not putting that.

We're not accusing tj. We're just saying.

No, I'm just saying. Right.

He does have a really good stoner vibe.

He does. He does.

Which is one of my favorite people. I love stoners, so.

Same.

Yeah.

And we. We're not projecting that to you, tj. But you did. He just. I would be. He'd be like, do you want to do this? And I'd be like, no. And he'd be like, okay. Like, there was no fight back at all.

So funny. All right, so last question before we do, like, our ending segments here. Are there any questions that you guys, like, hope people ask you when you're at, like, on other podcasts or at events and stuff that you don't get asked, like, super often. Is there anything that you're like, man, I wish they would have asked me about.

I wish that people would ask me about. About my opinions on everything.

Really wants. But she needs you to give humility 500 hours to answer. And don't make. Don't make her limit it to one.

Don't make me choose.

Speed Round is not for Christy. She did not like.

That was great. Her face. Her face. When you described what we were gonna do was perfect.

I was watching it, and I'm like, oh, no, Is this gonna be trouble?

So hard.

Yeah, she can do it.

Y' all rocked it. It was great.

Yeah. I wish people would ask me more about probably like, well, you Know, Joshua, we got to do it with the sports. Like, I, I feel like I don't get to talk about sports a lot, and I know that sounds really weird, but like, people ask me about pop culture, they ask me about politics, and they asked me about theology, but I don't really get asked a lot about that. And I think. But we have our sports Geeks thing now, so that's more fun. We get to talk about it because when Christy and I talk about sports, we both love sports.

We do.

We have to, we feel like we have to be quick because it's like, sorry.

Well, because Brian doesn't like sports, so.

That's funny.

Yeah, I feel like, I feel like it's always fun to get asked stuff.

That, that your questions were great, Joshua.

Yeah, they were really good. But like, you know, you know, we know something about it, but we never get to talk about it because it's not theology related, you know, like, like people ask a lot of theology stuff. I was like, yeah, like, ask me, ask me about curling, because I can talk about that for a while right now.

But yeah, I know nothing about.

Apparently I have.

I just know there's a broom.

I figured out why we won't talk about that right now. But like, see, this is what we do.

So for, for listeners, context. Leah mentioned sports geeks. That is a YouTube series on Systematic Ecology's YouTube if you want to check it out. Yeah, yeah. But I, you know, I, I feel the sports thing especially because for a long time everybody thought that, like, my favorite fan fan thing was Star wars. And, like, nobody really, like, even knew that I liked football. And the funniest thing was up, actually. I think still, I think it's still true. No, last year, last year was the first time I ever bought something Star wars because everyone just buys me Star wars things for like, my birthday and Christmas because everybody is like, oh, he's a nerd. He likes Star Wars. So I just get Star wars stuff. And I'm like, I, I like Star wars, but everybody else gets me enough star. Like, I don't need any more star. And then like, last year I got a game that was the first time I. Because it was like $2 on Steam. That was the first Star wars thing too.

I think music would be fun to get more questions about because Christy and I are big nerds about sports and music. Like, we go to lots.

We love music. Yeah.

Like, we're very into it all the time. So it's like, that would be really fun just to talk more about Music.

Joyful noises.

Guys, can. I know, but I mean, yes, yes. Well, we could go on and talk about our. Our old school love of ccm.

You know, I. I do. Sometimes I'm like, you know, the thing that kills me is I love some of these songs still. And it's funny how. Which ones have survived, because some of the ones that like the music vibed with me the most, the lyrics are so bad that I can't make myself listen to it. And then there's some that I'm like, you know, actually, lyric wise, this is still okay. Like, I'm not gonna look into this because I'm sure they mean something different than I want it to mean, but as long as I don't look into it, I could still survive this song.

Well, Tripp texted me about three days ago, I think, and asked if I wanted to go see Five Iron Frenzy. If you remember that band, they're coming to Greensboro. Josh Patterson's coming down from Baltimore, I think, as well to go. And I was just. It's Christy when we're in Greenville, but. But yeah, so. And that's a band that I was like, I loved them. Like, I told you at all that they were Christian because they're just.

I. There are so many bands that if you were like, what is he? What do you want to talk about this band? And I'd be like, for hours. Like, you know, or. Or music in general. I just. I love music. And. And I have a really, like, long, deep relationship with music. And so it's like, yeah, we would. But.

Yeah. Yeah. That's why we got evangelicals. So I. So with the evangelicals, is that, like, emo is like, your favorite kind of subgenre of music?

No, I will. I would say, like, we mostly it's just that we identify as emo. Yeah. But like, Like, Josh and Jed for sure have the most, like, credentials in terms of emo because they dress in.

Black and have tattoos.

Well. And also because Jed was. Is. I don't know if he still is, but he was in a band. Like, he and, like, Cool participate, but he mostly did, like, metal music, I think. But like evangelicals, I would say, is more about the vibe being very emo than that we don't talk about music every episode. Sometimes we talk about.

Sometimes I just cry a million things an hour and a half. Start crying.

So, yeah, it was a really. I mean, again, very unscripted, unplanned, just. But. But, like, it doesn't tend to be. They actually. They just did an episode I wasn't there for it and was very mad. And I texted John several messages about how mad I was about it, but where they just played each other music that they've been into lately. And I was fuming because I was like, I have so much stuff I want to play, and we have to redo this whole episode so that I could be there.

Humble.

Yeah, I'm very humble. Yeah. Yeah.

They have to redo this.

I have to master fomo.

Or they're just an episode where they exclusively have to listen to yours.

Just me. Yeah.

I would love that.

If I could just voice all of my music onto you.

Yes.

Do you have a favorite genre, then?

I'm really, like, mostly, like, indie, all alt rock. So emo fits really well into, like. I love emo stuff. But indie alt rock would be, like, how it would define it mostly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm a big fan of everything. I like almost everything. I like everything.

I don't like everything. I think that's insane to say that phrase.

Yeah.

You don't like polka.

Hey.

I'm here for polka. Actually, this is funny because you said that, because my grandma used to make us go to the Polish festival all the time, and they would just be playing polka music. So really fun.

Certainly indie music and, like, a little bit of Prague rock. I would say progressive rock and probably all alt rock, too. I agree. I'm big into. I'm big into the 90s right now.

We like sad girl music.

Yeah.

Yeah, I do.

Yeah, I. I love sad music.

Like, me too. I want to feel.

My favorite Christian song is actually about suicide.

Leah is a swifty.

Me too.

Might surprise you.

I don't. I like. I. I just. I just. I mentioned it that I like Taylor Swift, so I'm not, like, in the closet about or anything, but I don't know that I'm. I've told Christy this a bunch is. I love Taylor Swift and I'm like, definitely, like, following all the things, but I don't know that I have enough money to be a swifty. Like, I don't have. I'm not sure that I have that, like, level of finances to be able to go.

That's fair.

And, like, buy all seven because none of the cardigans. So. Yeah, I don't own a cardigan. All editions of, like, the midnight. So you can make the clock. I don't have.

I love her music, though.

No, she's a fantastic songwriter and people who say they don't like her, I'm like, okay, cool, whatever. I mean, does. Again, this is probably why me and Christian get along. I'm like, cool, whatever. I don't care. I like.

Yeah.

I. I have three of her albums on vinyl. I keep pointing because they're right there, but I'm really forevermore. Like, that's. That's where I hit my spot with her. And. And then I was like, okay, those two are great.

Those. Maybe she'll come to one of our Carolinas and we can go and. But you have to dress up.

Oh, I will.

I did go to the ERAS tour, which is hilarious.

She didn't. I didn't. So I'm not a real Swift speaker. You went to the movie? I didn't even go to the movie.

I was. Yeah. Well, this is. What I will say is that I was taken to both of those things.

So no one even took me.

That's funny. Yeah. I married someone who loves music, and I was one of those who grew up with. If that song isn't by Disney animation or say the word Jesus, you can't listen to it. So I'm like. Just discovered who Sugar Ray was, like, a couple years ago. Like, I was, like, super uncomfortable. So I'm like, this is wild. Like, the whole world of music is wild to me. I think my favorite genre is folklore. I like the folks.

I love folk music, Bob Dylan.

I can send you a whole bunch of folk music.

I love Passengers so much.

Like, yeah, Passenger's great.

Yeah.

Chrissy will play folk music at you two hours and let you listen to her thoughts on that.

Sounds awesome. I'll do it. I'll do it.

I actually. I believe that you would do it, but I don't think that you should.

No, I don't think you should.

I mean, I definitely would, but the. I think my favorite thing, though, is, like, folk is my favorite, but because, like, you know, every now and then, my Spotify thing is just so wrong because, like, we do podcasts, and I interview people who do music. So every now and then, it's like, this one Christian artist is your top. Your third top artist of the year. And I'm like, no, it's because, like, I mostly listen to podcasts, and there was one month where I really listed this person because I had to interview him. That's it.

You should see. Stuart and I share a Spotify. We share nothing else, so we're not that couple. But I don't want to pay for it, and he does. So we share that. Our Spotify rap.

It's so funny.

Hilarious.

It's so Funny.

She listens to like yeah, My Chemical Romance and like screaming like. And then it'll just be. Your top artist was Taylor Swift.

That's great.

My Favorite Taylor Swift, 30 Seconds to Mars.

Oh my God.

I think my favorite was like two or three years ago when I was. I was working at Shutterfly. I might technically be in the Epstein Files. I worked at Shutterfly. Whoa. Well, because you know, the whole company was owned by him apparently.

Anyway, so no, I did not know.

I had to be there at like three or four in the morning a lot of days. And it was like an hour long drive so I'm like dead asleep. And I discovered that sea shank. These kept me awake really well. So. So my top genre of one year was in quote just said pirate music. And I was like, pirate music. What an accomplishment.

For two years now, because of my dog, my top genre has been dog calming music.

So that's wonderful.

Chris and I both have a thing that recognizes when Alexa hears or whatever hears the dog barking. Stewart set ours up to do the same thing that yours does. It says zero, shut up. Because it can hear the dog bark. Yeah.

Mine goes, hey, Penny. And then it plays dog calming music.

Says zero shut up.

So Penny and I share an account and therefore my top genre has been dog calming music for years.

That is so funny. Last thing then. I'm starting these in segments because this is going to be the longest episode episode of whole church. And it's because TJ wasn't here. Blame him everybody.

Well, also it's because we're delightful and funny.

I do wanna also, I think one of my. There's so many things that I like. This is one of my favorite things about TJ and this is why we're like friends. Because I just, I'm like, this guy's awesome.

Joshua, we're starting to feel insecure about your relationship right now. We are right here in front of you.

It's fine, it's fine. Listen, I know you guys like each other more. More than either of us.

Well, you know, we don't talk about it though.

Anyway, tj, I don't know if he still does, but he used to have like. He created a playlist specifically so that it would be such a mix of music. So that is wrapped at the end of the year wouldn't be all like one thing.

So it just beats the purpose.

Really wild. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's funny though.

It feels like a 20 something year old things. You just want to put it on his instagram or whatever, so that people are like, you're cool.

I know somebody who figured out how to make it so that their Spotify wrapped would be a certain order as well. And it was like to spell out a word or something. I can't remember.

Too much.

A lot of effort.

I don't remember if it was him or one of his friends. But somebody got their Spotify wrapped where it had more minutes than there were minutes in the year because they had multiple devices playing at the same time, like, all year.

I was like.

Although it was like, it's crazy. I was like, wow, good job.

It'll be Stuart. I'll be walking to work, and he'll. I'll have podcasts that I've been listening to, because I do listen to y', all. Everyone's podcast. And. Or Taylor Swift. And he'll just be like, well, okay, but we can't. Because you can't play on the same. If you share an account, you can't play play too at the same time. So he'll just be listening to something.

It's just because you have a cheap version.

You'Re not insulting me. I. I don't own it. Okay, well, it'll just say, like, one day he was cleaning, and I could see that he was listening to Spotify, and I could see he was listening to the music he does. So I just put the K Pop Demon hunters on my phone. I was like, in the bathroom getting ready, and I just was like. And that's what you call being 40 kids?

That was. Oh, that's funny though. The. I realized that my top podcast, it's like, been the same thing for, like, three or four years. And systemic ecology makes it, but whole church never does. But then one year, I realized it's all the podcasts that have more than one episode a week are usually the ones in my top five. There's only one that only releases weekly. That's in my top five.

Well, but we're number one. We're number one, clearly, right?

Yeah. I mean, I don't.

Because you got to re. Listen to our voices, feel better about life.

But y' all don't even release one every week. No, there's like.

We try. Yeah, but we are. We are not.

Come to find out the world. The world is making us work jobs.

I know. And occasionally we have to pay y'.

All to do podcasts.

Yeah.

Everyone listening just needs to mail you checks directly.

Yes, exactly. Yes. Christy will give Christie's address out.

Yeah, okay. I'm gonna. I don't Know how I'm gonna segue to this, but, like, just do it. One of the things we like to do before wrapping up is to ask our guests, if they had to provide a single, tangible action that people could go do, like right now, that would help better engender church unity, what one action would you recommend? And I know Christie doesn't like being put on the spot, so, Leah, you're on the spot.

I mean, no big deal. Like, just get along. I'll have a drink.

That is a tangible action. Have a drink.

It is, it is. But some people don't, I suppose. I mean, it kind of goes back to what we talked to in the podcast, which I think is if you know someone who fundamentally disagrees with you, you and who is not oppressing your communities, other communities, and that's real key. I want to put that in there. Because if you're just being a jerk. Okay, six. I haven't cursed. I think that. Have a chat with them. I talked about that in the Embodied Peace Building and just lay it out, but don't avoid them. I think what we do is we avoid conversations a lot. And again, if this person's not oppressing you or other communities and they simply hold a belief, that's different. You know, Christy and I try to embody this in our podcast is have a chat, disagree, move on, talk about something else. As long as it's. Again, it's not fundamentally damaging to yourself or others.

Yeah, I was gonna say similar. Just have dinner with people.

Food. I. I stand by food and drink being key.

Yeah.

Honestly.

You know, it ties back to the scripture at the beginning is, you know, they were despondent and didn't know what to do and were probably disagreeing. Can you imagine the disagreements about the law or whatever? And the guy was like. He didn't say, like, well, let's go have a summit and chat. He said, let's go drink and eat.

Yeah, yeah. He said, let's party.

I'm into it.

Yeah. I mean, that's true. Because if I'm remembering right, that's about the part near there is where Scripture says, like, they heard the word and they had never heard it before. Which is also why I'm like, I'm of the opinion that Ezra was one of the redactors of the Torah, but, oh, that's a different podcast for some other time. Because I'm like, there's a reason there were stuff they never heard before. And if that's the case. Yeah, there was.

Yeah, the words. The word law is Interesting, interesting. There this idea that they had. I found that a bit confusing when you're reading it because it's like they'd never heard the law the Israelites had. They just. Yeah, that's an interesting turn of phrase here.

Yeah. And for more on that, look up Richard Friedman. I think he's a Jewish scholar, but yeah, he talks. He's the one that's convinced me Ezra might have been one of the redactors of tor. So anyway, moving forward. Sorry, that's not. And I just can't distracted too easily. This is a TJ part. I don't know how to do this. If people took your advice, if people went out, they ate, drink, they spoke their disagreements, and then moved on, what would we see change in our churches or in the world around us, you think?

I think that there would be a lot more community being built. We have a really unfortunate kind of individualist society, and I think that it's really important we start actively working towards that. So if people get out and you interact with people all around you, like, honestly, your neighbors, like just start meeting your neighbors, like community building happens and then we understand each other better. We can solve disagreements better, we can support each other better. All of that stuff just starts naturally happening when you leave your couch, which I'm not great at all the time, but it's important to do.

I don't like to leave my couch, so I just invite people to me and then I cook.

That's great. Yeah. Hosting is so important though.

Like, yeah, they talk about it a lot. The eating and the drinking and the hosting is talked about a lot in the text and yet we don't talk about it. Unlike other tongue facts, we don't talk about that very much. And I think that's interesting. Some of the stuff that gets repeated a whole lot, almost like it's important. We don't give as much emphasis as other things which are mentioned maybe once or twice. And we give a lot of importance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. So the. The people who do like the Holy Post, like Sky Jathani, Phil Vischer, all of them, they're more conservative than I am, but I still, like, they're not like hard conservative. I think one of my favorite things that they bring up is how like early church, the big sin that we are all afraid of, is not being unified. And now the. I think Sky Jathani's term for it is crotch theology. And it's all about like, what's going on between your legs. And it's like that Just wasn't what the church really focused on for most of its existence.

Yep.

So maybe we could say that's not a classical theism. I'm sorry, I apologize.

It's almost like it's not a real term.

I don't know. So the actual last thing we do before wrapping up is our God moment, which talk about somewhere we've seen God recently or the divine, however you want to word it. It's cool. TJ likes to make me go first. He's not here so now I have to go for. But I ditched last week early so he had to go first and I won one and that was great. That's my God moment is last week. I didn't have to do my godmother actually. There's been a lot of health issues with my mother in law recently and not even like religious wise, just like the people we know. There was just more support than I think think we realized. And also things weren't as, I don't say as serious. They weren't as emergent as much as emergency as we thought they were. But just knowing that there was more support than we thought there was has been huge. And just seeing God and all the people who are stepping up to help out is, you know, to me that's, that's big. So that'll be my God moment this week. See now I'm always afraid to put Christy on the spot. I feel like I always, I was.

Going to go ahead and go because she's muted and Penny's losing her mind. Yeah. So my God moment is I'm currently teaching a course where I'm learning a lot more. I, you know, you always learn stuff from students. Well, I say always very loosely, but.

Yeah, I've never learned anything from a student.

You tend to if you're a professor. But there's something about this particular class that I'm teaching and we're analyzing a lot of it's. It's called the Different Faces of Jesus. So we're analyzing a lot of movies and literature on the different, globally the different ways Jesus is understood. And I'm just learning a lot from them and their perspectives and how they respond to certain things. Usually if you're a professor, like you kind of can predict how students are going to respond to certain bits, whether that's readings or movies or whatever media. And they're surprising me every week and I think that's to be surprised as a professor who's taught now, I think I'm in like 15 or 16 year at this stage, that's. That's pretty. Pretty rare, I think. And so I'm really appreciating them. And I feel like it's a God moment because it's. It's giving me. I feel like maybe I've been in a little bit of a bubble, so even liberal people and can be in. In a bubble, and I think they're not even saying anything that's, like, denominationally crazy. It's just that are. Are not within the realm, you know, it's just that they're giving me perspectives that I feel like maybe I'd been in a bit of a rut, and I think that.

That.

That's helpful.

Yeah. Yeah.

God's bigger than our bubbles.

Yeah. I can't help myself. Are y' all watching? Been her or Risen by chance?

Is there a new Ben Hur?

2 been her. But, yeah, he's only in it briefly. That's why I was like. I feel like probably not. I was curious that. I think, if I remember right, Ben Hur was like, the first book that the Catholic Church officially was like, this book deserves to be amongst us. Even though it's not Bible. I forget the exact term. There was something Ben Hur was like.

Talked about, the Jesus in media and how it's a dangerous thing and how Ben Hur kind of got around that because it allowed for a Jesus story without it being Jesus. Take note.

Yeah, something similar, but I feel like it's more evangelical than I would wish. But I still. I like how Jesus is trade and the moments we see him. I was just curious. I'm sorry. I apologize. I am king of getting off the rails. Christy, do you have a God moment for us?

Yeah, I. Which is why I did my PhD the way I did. But I've been reading a lot that has just felt like it's been really kind of speaking to me in terms of connection and. And things like that and different ways to see the world. And I just feel like I'm in a, like, phase of books being able to build community in various ways, which, like, this is not intentional, but. Side note, we do have a band book club that every week or every month that we do it is one of my favorite things that we do. And so really looking forward to that every month, but this month in particular, because we're reading the Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison. And, like, it's just. It's been such a great experience to dive back into her work and things like that. But, yeah, like, a lot of the books I've Read lately have just been really good kind of spiritual experiences. Cool.

Because it forces, you know, because he has the ADHD as well, and it forces him to sit and read. And we've always talked about wanting to have a Bam. Book club or not. Sorry, not a band, but a book club, just the two of us. And we lasted through half of one book. And so it's kind of nice that we have that. That set up.

Yeah. What's crazy is I've heard y' all talk about that before. It's one of those things. I have a few of these things at work, but I don't know what all I'm allowed to say about work on air for everybody, so I won't. But, like, there's just these things sometimes actually it happens with Systematic ecology is the funniest because I write the outlines and then someone will ask a question and I'll be like, that's good. Like, I literally. I forget that it happens. And then every time I'm like, whoa. Actually, that is Wuthering Heights. We've had the same conversation four times, me and my wife, where I'm like, that sounds interesting. What's that about? Like, I've told you exactly what this movie is three times before. Like, it's fine. It's fine. Anyway, going to actually wrap this up. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna say TJ's lines somehow successfully. Maybe if you enjoyed this episode, please share with a friend, an enemy or a cousin. Especially a cousin. Go to our website, perhaps, if you want. Not forcing you buy a T shirt. Doing that helps us raise money, get awareness out, etc. Makes people listen to the podcast by force. If you wear the merch, I think that's how it works. Check out the other shows on Podcast Network, Theology on the Rocks, whole church. We're part of a bigger network, so you can see Systemic Ecology. Lee and I are both over there. Maybe Chrissy will be on some joyful noises with me one day. We'll see. And I don't know, we mentioned Brandon a couple times. He's got a couple cool shows. That Page and Pixel are the other new show. So check, just check stuff out. Go to the website. It's worth it, I promise. We hope you enjoyed this one. And coming up, we're going to be talking with Andrew Fouts from Open Doors Canada about Christian persecution around the world today and what their organization is doing with that kind of stuff. After that, we're going to have Jim Stump from Biologos join us today, discuss his book the Sacred Chain and some of the ways that science might be able to bring the church closer together. Then we're having on Mike Morelli to discuss his work with his podcast the Personalist Manifestos and other stuff. After that we'll have another roundtable discussion coming up on topics of how church engages with society. We'll be talking about like social justice, Christian nationalism, etc, with Aaron Simmons, Biggin, Chica, Jill, Elizabeth and a few others. So it'll be a fun time. Finally, at the end of season one, Frank's Channel beyond. He doesn't know about it though, so someone has to tell him, possibly force him to join us because I don't, I don't know if he'd even want to at this point. But you know, just, just let him know. Maybe he'll just show up. We'll see. And until next time later, I guess. Yeah, that sounds right.