Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

I'm Anna Toonk.

Welcome to how to be human

a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness On this episode, Anna and I discussed anger. Take a seat clear mind and let's chat

like, you became a different person, the second you're gonna go, okay, like, is it? I find it very funny. When, for both of us when we're being super dramatic about stuff when it's literally like clicking a button.

Are you doing that? Or I'm doing that? Or it's like, you mean pressing the button? You know, like, It's fun being a person in this world.

It's fun being a person who's about to talk about, I think one of my favorite topics,

malt Yeah, it was funny. We kind of need an I generally, I don't know, like, it's almost like Quarterly, we sort of meet and decide topics, and then we check in again, because we're moody and go do we swing those and usually cut half of them because we're like, manually anymore. And we had kind of let it get away from us. I guess some are fun. Haha, when you know, it's another summer with another plague seriously, and we were trying to figure out what to do for today. And it was funny when we came to we were like, oh, yeah, we could we could definitely do that. And today we're talking about. You want to tell us what are your favorites? Anger? Yeah.

What uh, yeah. What am I How am I feeling about myself right now? Love.

I don't even know what to think about it. Yeah, I mean, I think it makes I don't know how I'm so surprised. We haven't done this yet. To be honest. I don't know if it's, maybe sometimes when I'm confused about our decisions, or I'm like, Wait, why did we do that? I'm, I'm like, transport me to the time taking the data. Danna Yeah. And I'm like, Oh, we may be we're like going through a phase where we were tired of like being told we're angry or something, you know, that we were like, Oh, we want nothing to do with that. Probably because anger is complicated in that regard. I think especially if you're a woman. Okay. So before we get into the good stuff, which is us talking about it Oxford languages wants us to know that anger is defined as a noun. A strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure or hostility. The Colonel's anger at his daughters disobedience. Like oh, are these examples coming from the lady knows it they're always it's if it's nine or God,

daughters disobedience, that whole sentence makes me angry.

Well, I'm glad verb fill someone with anger provoke anger. She was angered by his terse answer. I love that we see maybe why we feel angry, displayed in Oxford languages where it's a man being angry at his daughter's disobedience. But then a woman's being angered by a man's like terse answer. I'm like that, right? There is a beautiful display of patriarchal values that are slowly but surely bringing us all down to slow death.

Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep. You know, here's the thing about anger. I remember growing up, thinking my mom was angry a lot, which she probably was, but I now understand so much of the things she was angry about, and didn't. And I didn't, I didn't really live with my dad. So I didn't think of him. I didn't spend that much time with him or whatever. But in that way, but I know that if she was a man, if it was my dad, I would I would be, I would be calling it like he gets mad or he or it would just be like, it would be different women are held obviously not hot takes no hot takes with this to such a different, impossible standard when it comes to anger specifically, that it makes me so angry. And what really frustrates me and feels really sad to me is that so many times when I want to show anger, I know that if I do I will be I will be put in in a dangerous position. And I think that is so much so many women's experience, where if something happens to you or you just want to assert yourself in a certain way that you're whether it's physical danger, or like your jobs in jeopardy or, you know, there are just we are pushed down constantly. And, and made to feel like we are not allowed this emotion and it's just the same as happiness or sadness. It's they're all on the same level.

Yeah. Do you remember? Like? Do you remember what your mom was mad about? Or do you remember? Like both my parents had tempers, you know, and I think of like, the 80s 90s. We heard a lot more about that about tempers, like, who has a temper? Or, you know, like, I don't feel like we hear about that anymore as much. And maybe some of that's because we realized people being abusive in the workplace wasn't exactly cool. You know, that some of the like, Devil Wears product type of, you know, leadership started to fall out of favor. But, like, my mom, gaslights, me about anger, constantly, and to this day, and even if I'm talking about something like, just strongly, like, even if I'm just impassioned, she'll be like, well, you don't have to be angry. Well, you know, people can't hear you when you're angry. And I'll be like, who's angry? I'm literally talking about, like, this book I love or something, you know, oh, and, and yet, my mom will go off, you know, when meltdown about something in a way that like, I maybe do once a decade, you know, like, and I'm like, so maybe, it's like, I feel also so policed by women in regards to anger as well. Men are just sort of like, Oh, that's cute. She's angry about it's like, a totally different thing. than I'm curious. Like, I grew up, like, very fearful of both my parents anger, but also it made me not take them seriously, in some ways, jus, because I would be like, they just lose it. They get really mad, it's scary for a little bit, and then it blows over, you know, like, I just didn't, I was just like, it's a thing people do in some ways that I'm curious of, like, how were you just like, Were you being shown? Like, oh, women can get angry? Or like, my mom's angry about stuff? Or like, did how much awareness over what she was angry about? Did you have and how did how did you feel about it? Because you have such a free relationship with anger, you know, that? I'm like, that had to come from somewhere, you know, like

I was, it did, I was such an angry teenager kid. I started getting really angry. Probably when things started to get really, really bad. So like, 910 11, but I didn't, you know, anyway, let's talk about the first part, which is my mom. I think a big part of it was my dad. You know, she, I wouldn't say that she had a temper, even though I'm sure she did. My mom was scary. But I was never scared of her. Like, I was more scared of her than my dad. I didn't take my dad seriously at all. I was like, That's hilarious. But like, Thank you. No, thank you. i But my mom, I think I was way more worried that my mom was going to be disappointed in me. That was always scary. But she would never. When we fought, we would like yell at each other. It was like really toxic for a little bit where we would have these knockdown drag out fights. And I, I it was just so it was so bad. It was so so bad. So that, like, we would have these big bursts. And then I don't know, they would never really be resolved. I've blocked out so much because it just I know that there's a lot that we never talked about, or could ever talk about. Maybe that unfortunately, just kind of like lingers there. But I think what she was so angry about was really valid, like you're not around me, right? The fact that she didn't feel like she had an equal partner, the fact that she was raising me a good portion on her own that fact that she felt like she had to be responsible all the time. But like, you know, maybe that wasn't necessarily the case, or she didn't feel like it was the case with my dad. And also she had her own family stuff. And I on an societally what what I'm so grateful for my mom for was she instilled this freedom in me to be really angry about the injustice is of the world. And I feel so grateful for her like I was thinking about my parents yesterday. I'm actually having a nice thought. And I was like, to be honest, all shit aside, I wouldn't have the life I have right now if it weren't for them for many reasons, I would say they brought me into this world gross, but also because they really encouraged me to live life the way I wanted to live it, they never tried to crush my spirit, they never would, you know, be angry with me or when I wanted to switch lanes or move to another country or whatever, it wasn't like this disappointment or, and so a lot of times I feel like angry with them, or I hold anger toward them. And I'm really trying to let that dissipate at this stage of my life. Because as we know, obviously, it only really burns me up. It doesn't do anything to them. And not that I want to hurt them. But in an in any situation where I'm driving in the car, and I have I have like extreme road rage. We've talked about that here. Right? Yeah, like, I need anger management, probably. But I try to do that for myself every day. But I if I don't manage my anger, like, I, I get pissed. And I will just burst but then it's over for me. So I don't do it at people. But I like will get really pissed and I'll be in the car like Fuck, fuck you. Like they can't hear me. But I I have a lot of rage in my body. Yeah, I do. And so I do have a free relationship, but I also feel a lot of guilt about it

think it's tough? Because as much as I think anger is a okay. Justified, I don't want to be around to too much of it, you know, or especially duvet has nothing to do with me. That it's tough because I think our guilt sometimes and shame comes from just like how uncomfortable that is like the witnessing of anger if you really do it, and don't try to like snuff someone out in that regard. is alive. I mean, because really anger. I remember my therapist explaining to me when she was like, so you're like, you're pretty cool with anger on like, you like anger. And I was like, oh my god, like not you to like betrayal, you know? And she's like, No, like, I'm not, you know, like, literally, I just want to, I just want to rap about it, you know? And I was like, Yeah, I know, blah, blah, blah. But I think I'm, like, justified and she's like, You don't have to defend it. I just want to know, like, how does it feel? Where do you feel it? What makes you wait, you know, like, and it was really nice for someone to give me permission to really like, get into it, you know, and be like, really swim around. But then she was like, we tend to go to anger because it's active. And it makes us feel like we're doing something. And it makes us feel like we're processing. But it but it's not it keeps you from feeling whatever is underneath that anger. And I've thought a lot about that. And I don't know, I've mixed feelings about it. Like sometimes with with my therapist, I'll be like, Christine, I know what your I know what you're telling me is right. But like, I don't agree with it completely. Or I'll just be like, but I don't or I don't get it, you know, like I understand, but I don't really understand how that a what's a secondary emotion like, that just doesn't make sense to me, you know, but I do know, or I've, the more I've thought about it as I've gotten older, I'm like, is that part of what is so uncomfortable about witnessing anger is so often what we're hearing is the pain that's underneath it.

You know, I don't really agree with Christina either. Because I'm totally not completely I should say, I feel like, of course, anger is preventing us from diving deeper, like most of the time, however, in controlled environments, releasing anger in a safe way not toward another human being is incredibly cathartic when you say

absolutely. But I think what she's saying is, even when you're releasing it, you're using anger to probably release something else. That that even if you're if you were just like yeah, hitting a pillow, that really you're releasing maybe sadness or disappointment, like you're releasing whatever that is. Right. serves a bit as a mask. I think that we

or or or a bridge.

Yeah, a bit like Yeah, but it's that and then it was interesting. I was Telling me and and before we hit record that I listened to Chelsea Handler's last book, which is, life will be the death of me in you. And you too, and she was talking about all this stuff with her therapist and her therapist uses the anagram system, Baba ba Emma saying that there's kind of three default state that people come at stuff from and one is anger. And I that it's a way that we in he was saying that, like, if that's more your default state than like sadness, and I forget what the other one was, so like, you know, some people tend to, you know, they when things happen, they tend to shut down and become more depressed, other people get angry, and I forget what the other one was. And I was like, Oh, that makes a lot of sense. You know, that. It's a way that I think that we do feel spurred in to action that it's more of like a catalyst maybe. But I'm like, it can be so tricky, though, when people say stuff like that, because it's like, it's still a feeling. So this primary secondary, I came across something today that I really liked. That was a tweet thread with Iris McAlpin, who is a therapist and or Yeah, certified trauma professional. And she said, if you're if you notice that you're constantly feeling irritated or annoyed in your day to day life, it's possible that what you're really bumping up against is a lot of unprocessed rage. Many of us weren't allowed to express rage growing up, so we never learned how to process it with others in ways that were connecting rather than disconnecting this connection can be scary for anyone but it's terrifying for a child so when it doesn't feel physically or emotionally safe to express justifiable rage we learned to hide it sometimes we had it so well we even hide it from ourselves. That doesn't mean it isn't there like Steam force underground it eventually has to come out somehow. Irritation annoyance frustration these can be like steam vents for rage they've been that that have been hidden away for a long time that this isn't good or bad is just can be useful to know what's happening.

Now she goes on Now does that mean every time we're annoyed that it means we have a deep well the rage like no but like I found that really benefit and then another person that I really like Instagram? Not quite Beyonce is her handle her name is creepy. I love it and that's so funny fucking bro. You would love her and she she's a writer I'm not I'm gonna say Savalas but I could be mispronouncing her name Sivan, Nolan, but she's a writer and post like, you know says really intelligent things and also post things that I tend to be like one, but um, she had posted, many girls received a message that you can speak what you won't be heard. We can deal with this once, once in a while. But when that's an ongoing dynamic, it's really repast repressive, suffocating and burdening. This is where a lot of girls rage comes from. And that was taken from her episode on beyond beauty podcast with Robin Clark. And then there's a, to your point too, about kind of anger and violence. And there was a lot about like, good girl programming, and how girls are taught security is an exchange. If I leave my authentic self to be who you're comfortable with me being then you'll give me approval, and I'll feel secure. This is a lie, you will never feel secure this way because it's conditional. And based on your willingness to self abandon. What you need to know is real security comes from deeply belonging to yourself, and then having relationships with people who meet you in this place of authenticity. And that again, is coming from something that not quite Beyonce posted in crediting Robin Clark, and I feel like so much of my own anger and rage at this point is from especially being from the south, how many times I was told, like not to be mad, or that my rage or anger was not justified? Or I was told like yeah, that's fucked up. But like, you're really being on cool talking about it, or, and I remember saying to my therapist, not that long ago, I was like, I just feel sometimes like rage coursing through me like it's beyond just anger. Like it's rage it just like, you know, it's so much and I was like, and I live a pretty charmed you know, good life. I'm a white woman in America like things are fine. I mean, do I make as much as white man? No, but like, you know, for the most part, I'm not. I'm not worried about resources. I'm okay. You And yet, I feel a sense of rage at the amount of work we have to do in order to be seen as like, whole, valid and worthy of listening to.

And it doesn't matter how much work we do it.

No, it doesn't. I mean, I'm 40 to ever be and it'll be never be enough. And if anything, it feels like it's getting worse. And I don't or not worse, I don't know, it's definitely not getting bad, it is getting worse.

Maybe it absolutely is. Because if you were already in a shitty position, and now, and we've been somewhere that was kind of maybe sort of a little better, but mostly just shoved under the rug. And now yeah, it's we're regressing for sure. And it's, it's getting worse, I think. And I think that I have to try to separate sometimes and really be intentional about sitting down and being like, am I angry? Because of something that's happening to me, or has happened to me? Or am I angry at the world, which is not necessarily like, not to me, but it's so personal, you know, I know what you mean. And I'm more pissed at the collective that sent that sadness, like, eats away at me. And it makes and it makes me really angry. And I and I really, really tried to, to channel that differently. Because I know that it's not helpful. And I don't really like to do the whole secondary emotion, you know, thing, either. It's just, it's just how you feel right? Yeah. But I find that it's not. It's not helpful. I don't think it's helpful. I think it's natural, but I don't think it's helpful. I want to know why we are in this, why we can't move as a culture in this way of men are supposed to be angry, like it's, it's something that is celebrated. And I was just like, any of the media that children can consume, or adults can consume is so saturated with violence. It makes me ill like, yeah, it takes me so long to find something for my kid or for myself, that isn't violent or so on a sexual Nick by sexual sexually or otherwise, just, I'm like, are we just a bunch of like? psychos, like, why is this something we keep feeding? Why do we keep feeding this beast?

Don't know, that's interesting. Like, I don't know, I mean, men are definitely more inherently violent than we are than women are. I mean, I say that as someone with a younger brother, you know, and like, literally went to the beach with him last week. And he was like, joking. Like, he was gonna use me as a boogie board. And I was like, do it and I will ruin your life, you know, and he was okay. But it's like, that was fun to him. You know, like, we

think he was conditioned to be that way. Because raising a boy, I,

I think it's impossible to say in the US, because, I mean, my brother also grew up like wearing shoes from France that looked like girls shoes, you know, because my mom was a cuckoo bird. You know, like, I think he's had a lot of different stuff in that regard. But I think some of it is. I mean, my mom did not think twice about, like, what she let him play with and things like I mean, not in a way that anyone is today, you know, but I do think some of that stuff. I mean, there's been studies done by people transitioning, and when trans men started taking testosterone, and they were like, Whoa, like, all of a sudden, I felt very biologically different. How I, you know, reacted to things was very different. I do think there's something to be said about the biology, there's something there. Conditioning, obviously, a huge thing, but I was gonna say that I think men are treated about some of the softer things obviously, like crying and sensitivity and things like that. The way women are about anger, you know, that it's like, look gross, you know, like you that's not allowed. And it's like, what if we just didn't do that? You know, like, I definitely, we think it's like weird to me that men's anger is so allowed and accepted in our culture, that I think we've become utterly desensitized to it because they're allowed to be angry, we give space for men's anger, and yet they're still like, you know, shooting up spaces when they're angry. So I don't I don't think there know that we're really allowing anyone to process anger. You know, like, I don't. I don't know what we're supposed to do with that. And I think that, like, what sort of sucks about a? I don't know, like, I mean, I do you think what sucks often about when anger is expressed is we don't listen. And we probably should, you know, and I know often when I have been the angriest, and it was fully justified, when I melted down, like, I felt really alone, you know, and felt really, everyone's just sort of like, oh, good luck with that, you know, and stuff like that, like, I'm not sure what we're supposed to do. Because generally, if people are angry, you know, there's something, there's something we've created that allows us to ignore people's anger. And often, it's like, I wonder if we've created that, or humans have adapted that, because it also allows us to perpetuate a lot of what, you know, continues the suffering and the anger, you know, if we really listened to black people in America about what their experiences, we'd have to make more change, sweeping changes, you know, but instead, we create these tropes. Oh, the angry black woman, you know, it's like, let's use these ways of deflecting, you know, like, oh, men are violent, or whatever. And it's like, actually, I think we don't put any expectation on men to be emotionally healthy, you know? So it's like, the only thing I think they do spew is anger often, you know, it's all in I think stuff that just deflects from what someone's actually upset about or trying to communicate.

I don't think that we want to change, like, as a whole. So those things would, like you're saying if we actually sat with, because God knows we have the tools, you know, at this point, if we actually sat with the individuals, we'd have to sit like you're saying on a much larger scale, but I also find it really sad. And just like mind numbing, that what we do is we ignore the anger we ignore the anger or we celebrate it in some way or we, you know, shove it down in women, and then when it turns to aggression, we are stupefied. Yeah, how it not to that level? You know when that one of those just one of the many because most of the mass shooters are white boys. I think 90% of them would comfortably say and when I can't remember which one because there are so many sickening one of the cops said he had a really bad day.

I remember that. Yeah, I mean,

he had a really bad day. It's like Oh, okay. I started ever been a female mass shooter.

Yes. So there are there has Yeah, I can't think of her name but she was a little cuckoo murdered her brother and then eventually walked in and shot up her workplace I can't think of her name Yeah, there we don't need to get she was white though. For the record. Of course she was yeah, I just felt like that was

so. So what what is anger I want i i was interested. I wanted to read just a couple of things that you've pretty much touched on but most people will experience episodes of anger which feel manageable and don't have a big impact on their on their lives. Learning healthy ways to recognize and express and deal with anger is important for our mental and physical health. When is anger a problem? You regularly express your anger through unhelpful or destructive behavior. Your anger is having a negative impact on your overall mental and physical health. Anger becomes your go to emotion blocking out your ability to feel other emotions, you haven't developed healthy ways to express your anger. So I I think that's an important just kind of touch point to be like, okay, anger is not bad, just by itself. But there are moments and warning signs and things we have to pay attention to when anger becomes a problem when anger becomes something we have to get help for or really sit with and understand and try to heal right in and of itself. It's I don't think it's a negative emotion do

not at all. I think that anger is tricky. In the sense of your anger. I think nine times out of 10 is is valid, like any other emotion, you know, however, I think it can be really I think it can be a smooth talker and trick us into thinking we're justified in doing whatever we feel like in regards to our anger. And that I don't think it's good that I don't know. That's negative that yeah, that's the negative to anger to it to me, you know, and that's something I'd be curious what your take is on this. You know, for me in production, a big big cycle would be me often, like kind of like dealing with something or being like, hey, like, we got to talk about like this, or like, this pipeline or whatever, like, it isn't working. And everyone was like, Yay, yeah. And then eventually, something would happen. And I would generally lose it. I mean, I wouldn't. I wasn't like abusive or anything, but I would just be like, Yeah, this is fucked up. And I'm mad because it didn't happen, you know. And I constantly would sort of get like, a little bit of like, ooh, mom's behind type stuff. But it wouldn't be addressed. You know, like, it still wouldn't get fixed or anything. Right? And then it's like, I'll continue. Exactly. And then I would start to sort of check out, you know, or be like, oh, did it break, like the other four times it's broken, you know, like, I would eventually become the asshole. And worse, I don't like what does one do? In your opinion? What do you think one should do? Quit? I mean, I think you would have quit I watch. I mean, but is it seeing maybe, like, I think something about that, quote, I read about like, the the women not feeling heard, you don't like that creates the rage? Which I mean, isn't really a hot take. You know, I think we all know that. If you don't feel heard, you're like, you're gonna feel some way about it, you know, but I think there is something I've experienced mostly in work environments, and less. So I think in personnel to be honest, where I think my anger is valid, I'm pointing out like, this isn't working, or this is or this is failing, or this isn't, you know, like, and it's like, almost made a joke or something. Like, or, I don't know, I

Well, it's not taken seriously. That's for sure. Yeah. Because here's the thing, eventually. Well, what is there to do? I mean, I, I have found that really trying to take the power out of the situation like that I'm clearly giving to it is helpful, right? Because in that moment, the expectation is, what I would do, what Anna would do is completely different than what these fucking Joe Schmo is are doing. Yeah, like that. So why can't they just get and not only is like, I'm doing it right. Why aren't they but you've told them the way you've given them the map, and they still won't use it. Right. Yeah. Which is maddening. And I think like, of course, there's going to be like you said, of course, that's valid, of course, that's going to build up in your system. And but when you when we let people get to us like that, even though it is I think they like when and I don't mean, trying to, but they do because they're not like stressed about it at all.

Well, into your point, I think I used to think that if I left that was letting them win, you know, if I had gone, this is crazy. You know, like I'm in a position of authority. They're disrespecting it. This is also a television network. Like it needs to run a certain way like this is this is cuckoo down like I need to go. That to me felt like letting them win by shoe out. Yes, yes, totally. But when I think back now, I'm like, What did I really gain? Staying on somewhere where I kept being almost like disrespected, essentially, you know, like, the anger wasn't dissipate. It's like, it maybe would go away for a little bit. And I wonder too, and part of why I asked you that is I think, I mean, I, based on readings based on clients, it's a familiar cycle to people. And I used to be team. Stay figure it out. Don't let people take stuff from you. Now I'm like, yeah, no, there might be another way to look at it. You know, like, what are you gaining by saying, you know, like, is it like to have a different like, pull your ego to the side and be like, let's talk about this. Because I don't think it works. And I wonder too, now, something I used to deal with in Dating? Is the people who don't really know how to apologize or maybe talk about something. But then just try to placate you to make anger go away. Did you ever experience did you have you done that dance?

No, because here's the thing. I think I'm no I haven't I really

is what I had I in my head. I was 5050 on whether or not you had, because I'm like, I wonder if the second some guy tried to placate her. She like, pulled out a pocket knife. Just his lie

was literally sliced him. No, it would never happen. Like, I'm too far gone. You're not you know, it's it was more back away. And like your I got your crazy a lot. You're crazy. It was like, top of the list. I'd say. You're fucking crazy. Like, am I? Or are you just stupid? And like,

Oh, that's interesting. Oh, yeah, I never got you're crazy. I got like, I

always say no, you're

36:06

right. You're right.

I got or I got like, I'm not good enough for you? And I'm like, No, you're not, but be better. Figure it out. But here's what I wanted to talk about, which is part of this, especially in dating. I am fascinated by of course, you know, the body and the physical effects of anger. So I'm also thinking about like, Anna, in that room, letting these people because you are feeling that in your body? Yeah, correct. Yeah. Yeah. And that. I mean, this is not the part where I pretend to be a doctor. But any one can understand that. Something that's happening over and over again, is bound to like, you know, kind of start to wear down your system, right. And what happens is, it's it's being angry, right is like a subset of fight or flight, right? It's part it's, it's in that neighborhood. Yeah. So what happens is the brain I'm reading what happens, the brain shuts shunts blood away from the gut and toward the muscles in preparation for physical exertion, heart rate, blood pressure, blood pressure, and respiration increased the body temperature rises, skin perspires the mind is sharpened and focused. It's literally like, you're getting ready to fight for your life.

But don't you like when you said that? The you know, sharpen and I'm like, I can I can think of exact moments when I've been like, oh, yeah, Mike. Now I will destroy you. You know, like, a when your mind's eye. Oh, no, I can remember every way you can.

I am a genius. Yeah, exactly.

Like, oh my god, yeah,

I am. I am. Every time I leave and situation, I don't do it anymore. I really like my husband. I don't have an unhealthy relationship, thankfully. But when I would fight with ex boyfriends, I'd be like, I'm gonna leave the situation, feeling really shitty, but also really impressed with myself. Because I am about to destroy you. Like, destroy you. I would I would I remember everything. And I would also have just a laser focus on parts of them, which again, I would never do, and I'm not condoning that. I was be like, it's this. It's that. Like, I was I was not, I was not fuzzy when I would be angry. Yeah. So so but I, my point was when you're sitting in those situations, and you feel like I had a moment where I was really angry, and this was a, this was something that's been building over time, I sent you a message and I almost like said, this is an angry message. So listen to it when you're ready to for that energy. But I was really pissed because someone who's been taking advantage of us. For us what I feel like is taking advantage and lying. I hate lying, lying. It makes me very angry. for like a year. Just like the final nail in the coffin a couple of days ago and my body. I was so exhausted after just feeling in my body. That rage of like, No, you're not going to do this again. You're not going to lie, you're not going to make me look bad. You're not going to just this is enough, like enough is enough. And I bet if there's growth because I recorded a message to somebody, like four times which you know who I am usually I'm like, This is what I have to say and this is how I'm saying it and good day. But I was like, I wanted to make sure that because my nice tone can sometimes scare people like they're like, like to your point with your mom. people be like What are you you're mad I'm like, I'm not Oh man, this is how I talk. Yeah. Like, I'm really not mad. You'll see when I when I'm mad, you'll know it. But I recorded it multiple times because I've found that even though I'm not angry, sometimes the intensity, which is another thing I want to talk about is often it's another way we just gaslight women and like, silence them when you are an intense woman. In my experience, you are labeled as angry. Yes. And they are not the fucking same.

I 1,000% I don't think I'm a particularly angry person to be honest. Like, I think I'm in touch. Yeah, like, I think I'm in touch with my anger. But I don't think I'm angry. I just don't suffer fools very easily.

And you're not angry at all. You're like,

I'm a very joyful person. Yeah, I bet I'm intense. And I think people confuse the intensity sometimes. Yeah, for anger. You know,

when you just are talking to someone and you're like, watching their eyes get wide. And you're like, is this not how you draw? Like, is this is this not okay? Like, and I have to say, I have trouble around a lot of women. I've had trouble around a lot of women in life not. I didn't have trouble making friends or anything. But I think a lot of women misunderstand me and think I'm somebody that I'm not. Yeah, and that's fine. It's not really doesn't really have anything to do with it. But people

plan a lot of stuff they should do with a therapist with you, you know, have like me, Mommy, you know, and like, oh, yeah, mommy mad and you're like, I've literally just said, like, Thursday or Friday, the weekend doesn't work. You know, like, you're the one who's making up this whole, like Nina's mad or you know, like,

chill, chill. Yeah, I get that a lot. Which would make me instantly want to fly through the roof. But you know, did it to me a lot with teachers.

And like at school, or Oh, yeah, after? Yeah. Oh, yes.

Well, I didn't go after school. I hardly went to school. No, I know, teachers were baffled by me, I think because I talked back. And I wasn't disrespectful. I truly was not, but I did not just accept the answer or the direction or the injustice. I remember. And I might have told the story here before, but when I was in like third grade, third grade, it wasn't like third grade of third grade. And my teacher said, Boys are better than girls. Literally. That's what he said. And I stood up and I said, That's sexist. You can't say that. And he's said, sit down. And I said, No. And he said, Go to the principal's office. I was like, fine, my mom will gladly back me up. Yeah. And she did. But the teachers and there were so many people who are like, You can't do that. You can't be outspoken. You can't be in you know, intense or like, you're Why are you so angry? Or why are you? Why are you so blind? You know, why are you so numb to this? Why do you think this is okay? And that really gets me where when something is happening. And this would happen with my guy friends in high school all the time, obviously, because they were all frickin, you know, privileged white dudes from Connecticut. They'd be like, well, resumen you know, I'm like, because you don't understand how the fucking world works. Like this is not, it's not okay. And they were like, oh, chill. Oh, we're all just trying to like, have a good time. It's like, oh, by demeaning women. Not fun, like, not fun at all fucker.

It also boggles my mind in those sorts of situations. Well, one, your whole educational experience boggles my mind. Number one, too. Doesn't really Yeah, I'm like, what was going on there? You know, like your school was

used to just falling in line crazy. It was one of the best schools in Connecticut and Pete they were literally that used to kids just falling fucking ordain. You're

not that good in my opinion. Like, if you can't figure out a way to like, talk to a kid or figure out what plank, they need something like something. You know, like, I'm

homeschooling my child, because breezy.

I mean, like, I hadn't, I would say mostly positive school experiences and I'm grateful for that. But like, I just sometimes you know, the story that I'm just like, boggles my mind. I can't get like, yes, you're younger than me. But like, not that much. The idea that it's you if you were in if you're in third grade. I don't know. That's like early 90s. Late, you know, not to get too specific about where that is. But anyway, lately, what we can Sometimes to like, this has been something for me that when people like calm down or chill out, I'm like, Okay, let's do a little exercise. If you had been in class, and your teacher said, girls are better than boys, period,

boys and girls, oh, no, I got a cheat I got it,

trying to teach empathy to to the chiller. It's like, would you have loved that? Would that have felt good to you fellows, like in girls who are like thinking, I'm overreacting like you did that? Did that feel good to you? Like, so often? What frustrates me I think about anger or when someone is like, I remember to I mean, now in texting and stuff, obviously, we don't always know someone's tone or whatever. And I was saying, Oh, I think you'll enjoy this. It drives me crazy. When I'm asking for help. And not actually angry, or being anxious or anything, but I'm literally just relaying information. And someone tells me to chill, then I'm like, oh, one upset before, but I am now. Bad. makes me crazy. It is. So like, here's, like, here's a note for us all. It is not hard to be dismissive. So when you're, you know, tempted to be dismissive, or read different stacks and be like, Oh, that silly bitch. Like, why she all riled up about that, or whatever. Read it again, you might be missing something, because it is very easy to be dismissive. And you could be wrong, you know? Because the amount of times that people have been like, chill, or it's not that deep or whatever, and I've gone not that deep.

Worse phrase?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as the person who often gets the phone call when something has gone wrong, or tends to be the resourceful person or tends to I'm like, I would love it. If you bing bongs would start listening to me versus just telling me it's not that deep, or it's not that big a deal. And then calling me when it all goes wrong. I mean, that's more a thing from from when I was younger, and then I was like, why don't you just retire in a, you don't have to be a fixer for the world. You know. And that was a interesting transition to when people would start, especially workwise. When it would be like, Oh my God, that thing you said it was gonna happen happen. And I'd be like, Cool. Good luck with that by just and they were, like, stupefied. And I was just like, Well, how long did you think this was gonna go on? Like, how long did you think I was just gonna be like, Hi, I yeah, I should be chiller. You know, I should it You're right. It's not that deep. I should stay on this here surface. You know, like,

it's all that deep. Okay. It's all that deep. Like,

I would love to like, you know, this is something I started saying to my mom, as I was like, listen, it's not like, it's super fun to be me all the time. Like, feeling a million different things, about a million different things doesn't exactly make my life easier. You know? So if I'm saying I feel that way, it's because I probably do

not because I totally not because I want to. Yeah, I do. I don't.

And she was like, interesting. And the thing. Because I'm an asshole. I think I've been doing to her about anger is I'm like, Well, Mom, that's like the third time you brought up anger. Are you exploring your relationship with anger right now? Because you seem really uncomfortable with it. I personally honor and welcome all emotions, do you not? I'm like, Mike, you're not you're not going to talk about union symbolism my entire life. And then I'm not going to pick up a thing or two about how I can like terrorize you in return about it, you know, because something that's helped me as well because I do think any whatever your I mean, I think for us angers a little charged and you know, we go back and forth about our relationship with it because other people have made it complicated for us. But something that has really helped me is remembering that emotions are reflexive that we they are a reflex we don't get a say in how we feel. So whatever you are feeling is what you're supposed to feel. It's often it's the how we're coping with it or processing or what we're doing with it is where we could use some improvement. But how we feel is a reflex. So often when someone is giving me some sort of feedback about like, oh, how you feel is weird. I go emotions are a reflex. You know, I don't have control over it. And that's been helpful for me to also then like, get over the like, Why do I feel this way? Or why does this make me mad and then like, move into the next phase of like, let's get rid of the anger. GRE did then go back to the analysis.

Yeah, I, I'm with that I'm with it.

But the whole idea though sometimes when people are like, wow, it's just like really crazy that you're so mad about that. And I'm like, and you're not like, I remember when I would experience so much casual sexism, and would be mad and be like, it sucks to be an executive at a meeting. And just because I'm the only woman, I'm asked to take notes, and dudes are like, Yo, but look, whenever it's not that big a deal. It's notes. And I'm like, How would you know, like, you're not experiencing it. You're not the one who has to, like, process that and be like, I need to, like, if I take myself too seriously, then I'm a loser that no one's gonna respect and like, follow. If I don't take myself seriously, then I'm a clown. And they're not going to respect me if I like, how the fuck am I supposed to win? And now on this extra layer being asked to take my, you know, notes in this meeting? Like, give me a break? that so much of that was I don't

think there's any way to win in that space at all. I really don't. I don't believe that. Women will ever I, I think white men run it all. And they always well. I really do. That's how I feel.

Kinda hope not. I mean, the good news is

was data do we listen, I have a piece of

data that I think you'll like, and that is, white people will be the minority within the nest. I love that. Yeah, like, I don't know, like, I don't know how many years but it's not as many as you would think. So that gives me some hope that literally by volume and numbers,

yeah. But they have all the money. They have so much of the money. True. Now, they have. And they have this bucket and generational wealth. I was just talking to a client before this about, you know, she's a recruiter. And we were talking about just she you know, she lives in a very wealthy town and about getting involved or not even really in her town, because there's nothing to get involved with. But in surrounding towns, and anyway, I was saying about recruiting, I was like, Is it always the same people? Like is it always the same person knowing probably that, considering she places people in finance that it was always going to be the same white guy? She's like, Yeah, because you're, you know, grandfathered in, in some way, you have to have some level of education that obviously only available most of the time to a certain portion of the population. So I don't see a way out like I've really don't, but what I do have hope for it is and, and what soothes my anger is I think that we are getting better at organizing on a community level. And I think that matters. So yes, I think the systems are fucked and probably always will be. But I do think we are going to hopefully be able to take better care of ourselves. Unfortunately, I think a lot of each other. I mean, I think a lot of that is coming from a lot of pain and a lot of trauma that we are experiencing together. And I but I do feel like people are gonna, like huddle up in their spaces more. And but as far as I'm like, No, like a I think our country is fucked. I think the world is. I think we're all fucked.

I don't know, I don't know if I think it is ultimately, I mean,

I think I would love to be wrong.

I see people doing things differently. And something that gave me hope as the book group I was in Sarah, who was one of the or who is the founder of Cepu was talking about, like, how do we create, like our own you know, little Eddie's like our own little, you know, branch off of Maine current and like you said about community organizing. I do think there's been a shift I mean, like more people ever in my lifetime are saying, just doing things one way like isn't the only way you know, like, people are rejecting all these old models you know that in a way that I've never I've never seen you know, like to to this degree of being like, you don't have to do this you don't have to like you know, do really well and in high school, then go to a really good college and get internships like there's all these different ways that people can access, power and money and right all these all these things, which does give me some hope and people are taking more Are ownership and I think empowering themselves to create those those spaces as well, you know that? I don't know that it'll ever be like the US feels like this like super safe equal space or whatever? Probably not, I highly doubt it. But can we get bigger stretches of it? Or can we get? You know, can it feel a little bit more balanced of like, what we're saying is acceptable and what isn't? You know, like, I think a lot of us are angry, not so much about me. Yeah, the policies and stuff, but I think it's also like being lied to, it's like Biden being like, yeah, Roe v. Wade, being repealed is gross. Well, then, like, do something out, kick it off here. You know, like, I think that's what makes us all angry. It's like, everyone kind of going, yeah, yeah, that is terrible. Oh, that is the worst and then doing nothing. So what say to people pick one thing that you're angry about, and maybe find one thing that you could do a bit differently, or a way that you could like, be contributing or knowledgeable or whatever. But I would also say as someone who has felt like the title angry has followed me at periods in my life, like, I don't know, your anger is justified, just maybe learn different ways to release it or communicated or if I do think there's something to be said, of, if you're constantly getting feedback about your anger, it's maybe worth it to speak to people you really trust and know are safe for you what you know what bestie and go like? Is my anger really out of whack? Like what's up, like, maybe get a real read on it? I've had to do that at times when I've just been in a space. And it's like, how I felt was valid, but I was definitely not coping in a in a good way. You know, like, it was fair for people to not want to be around it. If that if that makes sense.

It does. Because they who does? I don't want to be around that. Exactly. I don't want to I don't want to be that. But I also to your point, I do. We are not we cannot be defined by any feeling, right? Yeah, there is yes, sadness, or anger or happiness, like, we are going to experience a range of emotions, I am the most terrified of people who I who I feel like are pretending to be happy all the time. Because I'm like, that, that's just not real, like A for effort. I'm not like raining on your positivity parade, but like, it's just not real, and you're hurting yourself in a different way. So every emotion has a positive and a negative side, right? Every emotion has the ability to, like sweep us under, or you know, kind of, like, submerge us so that anger is no different. It's just finding a way to deal with it, talk about it, really shame around it, befriend it even and then move through it, because it's gonna it's going to come it just well for everyone.

Yeah. One thing I wish I had gotten better about that I do think I've have is stoking anger, when your anger angry, I think it feels better in the bond, and you move through it faster. If you just validate your anger, versus doing what I used to do, which is called building the case. You know, it's like gasping ways. Yeah, you know, like something would happen. And like, I would feel uncomfortable about my anger would be, I think, afraid of being the angry person or the whatever, or like not being cool, or something, that I would be like, oh, and they also did this or whatever, I would just build this case. And it just, that's a mess. It's not the way to go about it. So when I got better about just going like you're angry, and that's okay, but we're not going to respond from this place, because it would just be reactive. So let's like wait until we're not angry, and then we will assess the situation. That worked much better for me, got me out of the habit of to make myself feel safer to feel anger of like just building that case. And like, listing out everything horrible that had like ever transpired or whatever, like, it would just become a mess.

Yes. Well, let's leave you with what one one? I say I like the exercise of and I said it to my client. You just said it. Choosing something that you're feeling angry about and chant and taking some of that energy and channeling it into something positive not to dismiss it, but just to redirect that. Whether that's a cause that you feel particularly good aligned with or pissed about? Or? Yeah, something that's just that's moving you in some way. Use it use it to affect change. Yeah.

Yeah. If anger is a driving emotion, let it drive you somewhere, drive you to action.

Well, thanks for listening everyone. I hope that this was helpful as always, in some way, and we'll talk to you next time.

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