1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,370 Stephanie Maas: Well, hey, Gary, it's super nice to meet you. 2 00:00:02,670 --> 00:00:05,340 Gary Kusin: Nice to meet you also, I'm at your mercy. 3 00:00:06,750 --> 00:00:09,785 Stephanie Maas: Well, thank you, you may come to regret that. But 4 00:00:09,847 --> 00:00:13,501 in the meantime, thank you. So I'm super curious. I'm gonna 5 00:00:13,563 --> 00:00:16,970 just jump right in out of the gates in your book always 6 00:00:17,032 --> 00:00:20,377 learning. You know, I think that's such an interesting 7 00:00:20,439 --> 00:00:24,280 perspective. Because folks often would look at your background 8 00:00:24,342 --> 00:00:27,996 and go, What does he possibly have left to learn? Tell me a 9 00:00:28,058 --> 00:00:31,961 little bit about where the idea behind the book came from. Walk 10 00:00:32,023 --> 00:00:33,510 me through some of that. 11 00:00:33,510 --> 00:00:36,817 Gary Kusin: Be glad to. So after I sold Kinkos, to FedEx, and 12 00:00:36,884 --> 00:00:40,327 after the two years that I integrated it into FedEx 13 00:00:40,394 --> 00:00:44,377 reporting to Fred Smith, the founder of FedEx, I was trying 14 00:00:44,444 --> 00:00:48,426 to decide what I wanted to do next. And I started getting a 15 00:00:48,494 --> 00:00:52,341 lot of pressure because of the way that Kinkos turnaround 16 00:00:52,409 --> 00:00:55,986 happened and a lot of things about that from a lot of 17 00:00:56,054 --> 00:01:00,374 interesting quarters saying you have to write a book, this would 18 00:01:00,441 --> 00:01:04,626 be a very big book. And I said, you know, I'm not I have never 19 00:01:04,693 --> 00:01:08,878 been good about talking about myself. But I'm a big introvert. 20 00:01:08,946 --> 00:01:12,928 And I would just assume, not be in the limelight. And so it 21 00:01:12,996 --> 00:01:17,248 really kind of pushed back, but they were really pushing pretty 22 00:01:17,315 --> 00:01:21,635 hard. I told everyone, no, thank you, I am looking forward to my 23 00:01:21,703 --> 00:01:25,888 anonymity. And that's it, and I let it go. Fast forward to the 24 00:01:25,955 --> 00:01:29,870 last year, we had our 11th grandchild. And our view of the 25 00:01:29,938 --> 00:01:34,190 world is quite different. Both my wife and me, we decided while 26 00:01:34,257 --> 00:01:38,307 we while we still could, we wanted to write a memoir, that's 27 00:01:38,375 --> 00:01:42,492 where I started. And through a lot of friends who are authors 28 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,812 and a lot of people, I ended up meeting with some publishers, I 29 00:01:46,879 --> 00:01:51,132 mean, I went through the whole drill, and I found a spectacular 30 00:01:51,199 --> 00:01:54,912 editor that I really wanted to work with. And I started 31 00:01:54,979 --> 00:01:59,164 pounding away on a memoir, gave it to Maria, and she came back 32 00:01:59,232 --> 00:02:02,944 to me and she's a highly experienced person in the book 33 00:02:03,011 --> 00:02:07,264 industry real Book Pro, and part of my belief and my talk track 34 00:02:07,331 --> 00:02:11,651 about my life is essentially I'm the luckiest sob in the history 35 00:02:11,719 --> 00:02:16,106 world. I've fallen up everything that's ever happened to me good, 36 00:02:16,173 --> 00:02:20,291 pure luck. Well, Maria pushed back, I read intention on every 37 00:02:20,358 --> 00:02:24,476 page. And I have a hard time reconciling the intention that I 38 00:02:24,543 --> 00:02:28,458 see that you have written in your own words about your own 39 00:02:28,526 --> 00:02:32,440 life, with your thought that you have just been lucky. And 40 00:02:32,508 --> 00:02:36,693 following up. She said, I don't believe that. And I would like 41 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,810 you to rethink how you have thought about your life. Luck is 42 00:02:40,878 --> 00:02:44,860 what happens when opportunity meets preparedness that stuck 43 00:02:44,927 --> 00:02:48,842 with me. And my book took on a very different, intentional 44 00:02:48,910 --> 00:02:53,027 look, and frankly, morphed into more about my business. I'm a 45 00:02:53,095 --> 00:02:57,212 mentor. That's the one thing that came out of my whole career 46 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,127 that I love the most. And there are reasons and I tracked 47 00:03:01,194 --> 00:03:04,974 through all of those in the book. But I've had over 1000 48 00:03:05,042 --> 00:03:09,024 mentoring sessions last 20 years. And so this book is a way 49 00:03:09,092 --> 00:03:12,939 for me to mentor more broadly, let my my podcast the same 50 00:03:13,006 --> 00:03:17,056 thing. All I'm trying to do is level people's playing fields 51 00:03:17,124 --> 00:03:20,971 who might not have had the advantages I've had my career, 52 00:03:21,039 --> 00:03:25,224 because that is my joy. It's my love out. I spoke a month ago, 53 00:03:25,291 --> 00:03:29,611 and I wrote about this recently on LinkedIn. But I spent I spent 54 00:03:29,678 --> 00:03:33,863 an hour with the eighth grade of a charter school in St. Paul, 55 00:03:33,931 --> 00:03:38,183 Minnesota, who were all Somali refugees. And one little boy had 56 00:03:38,251 --> 00:03:41,828 his hand up. And I said yes, because I was asking for 57 00:03:41,895 --> 00:03:46,148 questions. And he said, When did things get better for you? Now 58 00:03:46,215 --> 00:03:50,198 think about that question. It stopped me dead in my tracks. 59 00:03:50,265 --> 00:03:54,518 And I was able to just talk to this young man about things that 60 00:03:54,585 --> 00:03:58,500 I did at his age, what I learned and what I felt was a way 61 00:03:58,567 --> 00:04:02,212 forward for anybody who is trying to figure out how to 62 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,397 better themselves. It filled me up that interaction with that 63 00:04:06,465 --> 00:04:09,570 young man was what I'm that's what I live for. 64 00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:12,496 Stephanie Maas: There is so much I want to unpack. So let me 65 00:04:12,563 --> 00:04:16,222 circle back to these leadership principles. And respect 66 00:04:16,288 --> 00:04:18,750 alignment, accountability. What else? 67 00:04:18,750 --> 00:04:22,011 Gary Kusin: Well, I actually do alignment and accountability is 68 00:04:22,075 --> 00:04:25,465 one and two. For me. It's critically important in any 69 00:04:25,529 --> 00:04:29,046 company, for everyone to understand, what are we trying 70 00:04:29,110 --> 00:04:32,628 to do hear, hear and to understand, here's the mission, 71 00:04:32,692 --> 00:04:36,657 there's the flag on a distant hill. That's the flag we need to 72 00:04:36,721 --> 00:04:40,686 take. We're going to take it and then why they're so linked is 73 00:04:40,750 --> 00:04:44,587 you can't give responsibility without authority. And so many 74 00:04:44,651 --> 00:04:48,424 companies do that. They they tell they tell someone, you've 75 00:04:48,488 --> 00:04:52,518 got to get this done. And then when you start to do it, someone 76 00:04:52,582 --> 00:04:56,291 else tells you can't do that. That's a misalignment, it'll 77 00:04:56,355 --> 00:05:00,256 destroy everything. So alignment and then have a culture that 78 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,349 does too. distributed authority, then you can move into respect 79 00:05:04,413 --> 00:05:08,314 for others. And that means that and it TPG were US did a nice 80 00:05:08,378 --> 00:05:12,344 stint as a senior adviser, they had a sign in their lobby that 81 00:05:12,407 --> 00:05:16,437 said, No, it's allowed. That's, you know, I think that's pretty 82 00:05:16,501 --> 00:05:20,338 straightforward. And you can figure out what that is, in the 83 00:05:20,402 --> 00:05:24,367 honest honesty and integrity is a requirement. But there are a 84 00:05:24,431 --> 00:05:28,524 lot of people out there who like to cut corners. And I'm never a 85 00:05:28,588 --> 00:05:32,489 part of that. And the last one is continuous improvement, but 86 00:05:32,553 --> 00:05:36,263 my co founder at GameStop, and I've been talking about the 87 00:05:36,327 --> 00:05:40,164 book, obviously, and he really thinks I should rethink that. 88 00:05:40,228 --> 00:05:44,001 And I am to make a continuous change. Because we could have 89 00:05:44,065 --> 00:05:47,774 been accused at GameStop. being excellent, with continuous 90 00:05:47,838 --> 00:05:51,676 improvement because we work but we should have been thinking 91 00:05:51,740 --> 00:05:55,577 change. Because we came in at the dawn of a new industry, we 92 00:05:55,641 --> 00:05:59,734 were the first software store in the world, when our first store 93 00:05:59,798 --> 00:06:03,763 open, and the things we did to start, were right at the start. 94 00:06:03,827 --> 00:06:07,600 But 10 years later, every one of our kind of pillars of our 95 00:06:07,664 --> 00:06:11,054 business needed to be reevaluated every single one of 96 00:06:11,118 --> 00:06:14,955 them. And all we were trying to do would be better, smarter, 97 00:06:15,019 --> 00:06:19,048 faster, and what we were doing and continued to succeed, but we 98 00:06:19,112 --> 00:06:22,950 were missing the very large and important aspects of change. 99 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:27,060 Stephanie Maas: Next thing I want to touch on is this idea of 100 00:06:27,090 --> 00:06:32,190 toxicity. How and when do you recognize it? How do you change 101 00:06:32,190 --> 00:06:34,260 it? Just talk me through some of that. 102 00:06:34,260 --> 00:06:36,916 Gary Kusin: The key question you're asking there is, how do 103 00:06:36,973 --> 00:06:40,534 you change it, and I will get to that in a minute, it is pretty 104 00:06:40,591 --> 00:06:44,152 obvious to see when there is a culture that people talk down to 105 00:06:44,208 --> 00:06:47,430 people in an organization or they yell or they scream, or 106 00:06:47,487 --> 00:06:51,048 they belittle people, there is no reward and recognition, there 107 00:06:51,105 --> 00:06:54,101 is an expectation that people might work all hours be 108 00:06:54,157 --> 00:06:57,436 available all hours in those kinds of things, and not then 109 00:06:57,492 --> 00:07:00,940 not want to pay people keep all the money for themselves, you 110 00:07:00,997 --> 00:07:04,276 know, all that kind of stuff. How do I change that, in one 111 00:07:04,332 --> 00:07:07,893 case I left in life, there are good reasons. And there are real 112 00:07:07,950 --> 00:07:11,285 reasons, I ended up having a good reason. And I'm not gonna 113 00:07:11,341 --> 00:07:14,959 get into it any more than that. And one particular company I was 114 00:07:15,016 --> 00:07:18,520 involved with had a good reason for leaving, but it wasn't the 115 00:07:18,577 --> 00:07:22,138 real reason. And the real reason was, I couldn't stand the tone 116 00:07:22,195 --> 00:07:25,756 at the top. And unfortunately, I'm at the top also. So that was 117 00:07:25,812 --> 00:07:29,204 getting guilt by association. And I decided I didn't want to 118 00:07:29,261 --> 00:07:32,878 go into hand to hand combat with the other top leadership. So it 119 00:07:32,935 --> 00:07:36,157 was easier for me because I wasn't at all concerned about 120 00:07:36,213 --> 00:07:39,662 being able to find something to do, because it's never been a 121 00:07:39,718 --> 00:07:43,223 problem for me. And I decided I can create a new situation for 122 00:07:43,279 --> 00:07:46,558 myself. And I had a good reason everybody believed it. And 123 00:07:46,615 --> 00:07:49,893 that's great. But it's tough. That's one thing people know 124 00:07:49,950 --> 00:07:53,511 about me. And when I was at TPG, again, as a Senior Advisor for 125 00:07:53,567 --> 00:07:56,789 13 years in that meantime, helped assess companies to see 126 00:07:56,846 --> 00:08:00,181 whether we should buy him or not those that we bought, if I 127 00:08:00,238 --> 00:08:03,573 wanted to join the board, I could I could be lead director, 128 00:08:03,629 --> 00:08:06,908 I could be exec Chairman, I could be whatever I want it to 129 00:08:06,964 --> 00:08:10,243 be. But no situations, I was very clear very quickly. If I 130 00:08:10,299 --> 00:08:13,635 saw toxicity at the top, I had very difficult conversations 131 00:08:13,691 --> 00:08:17,083 with CEOs, presidents, and other BNI I have no problem doing 132 00:08:17,139 --> 00:08:20,644 that. I just close the door and I sit down and I say I'm about 133 00:08:20,701 --> 00:08:23,866 to have a very difficult conversation with you. And when 134 00:08:23,923 --> 00:08:27,258 you say I'm about to have a difficult conversation with you 135 00:08:27,314 --> 00:08:30,819 to someone, they kind of sit up, go up, something's come in, I 136 00:08:30,875 --> 00:08:34,324 need to in a focus and you get a very different kind of focus 137 00:08:34,380 --> 00:08:37,885 when you start a conversation like that. And I would tell him, 138 00:08:37,941 --> 00:08:41,390 not on my watch, not on TP G's investment. We're not going to 139 00:08:41,446 --> 00:08:45,007 do things that way. And you need to understand that. And if you 140 00:08:45,064 --> 00:08:48,625 have an issue with that, let's talk about how to gracefully get 141 00:08:48,682 --> 00:08:52,073 you out of here. And I had no problem having those difficult 142 00:08:52,130 --> 00:08:55,126 conversations, because I'm having with people who are 143 00:08:55,182 --> 00:08:58,574 inherently difficult, who have been part of the toxicity who 144 00:08:58,630 --> 00:09:01,683 seem to not understand what their presence is like how 145 00:09:01,739 --> 00:09:05,301 they're being received by other people. So I've had those times 146 00:09:05,357 --> 00:09:07,110 I had much those conversations. 147 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:09,722 Stephanie Maas: Again, the wisdom that just comes from that 148 00:09:09,783 --> 00:09:13,428 so many people from a leadership perspective, talk about the 149 00:09:13,489 --> 00:09:16,892 difficulty of difficult conversations, and you just gave 150 00:09:16,953 --> 00:09:21,510 beautiful language. Hey, we're just going to have a difficult conversation. 151 00:09:21,510 --> 00:09:24,178 Gary Kusin: And I'll give you another lesson I learned along 152 00:09:24,234 --> 00:09:27,569 the way that helped me with that. Actually, that lesson came 153 00:09:27,625 --> 00:09:30,738 from Jack Welch. And I asked him, I was having quarterly 154 00:09:30,794 --> 00:09:34,407 business reviews with him. And I asked him, I was very curious. I 155 00:09:34,463 --> 00:09:37,743 had assembled an entirely new management team and 12 months 156 00:09:37,799 --> 00:09:40,967 later, I'd replaced half of them. And I said, I feel very 157 00:09:41,023 --> 00:09:44,359 guilty about that, Jack. And so give me give me something to 158 00:09:44,414 --> 00:09:47,694 think about, as I think about am I a failure at recognizing 159 00:09:47,750 --> 00:09:50,974 talent? What did I do wrong? Or what did I do right? And I 160 00:09:51,030 --> 00:09:54,199 learned from him. First of all, he said 50% is completely 161 00:09:54,254 --> 00:09:57,701 average. He said, I'm not gonna tell you good job, but I'm not 162 00:09:57,757 --> 00:10:01,370 gonna tell you a bad job either. Because when you're rebuilding a 163 00:10:01,426 --> 00:10:04,817 senior team from the ground up in a turnaround situation, you 164 00:10:04,873 --> 00:10:08,375 won't know if you lose half of them. That's, that's average. He 165 00:10:08,431 --> 00:10:11,711 said, Now, the second time around, since you now understand 166 00:10:11,766 --> 00:10:14,991 the business much more closely and the replacement kind of 167 00:10:15,046 --> 00:10:17,993 people, they should have different characteristics. I 168 00:10:18,048 --> 00:10:21,606 learned about that. But the best one I ever got was first time I 169 00:10:21,662 --> 00:10:25,053 ever fired anybody. It was one of those things that has stuck 170 00:10:25,109 --> 00:10:28,389 with me forever. So I started a new job in Sacramento for a 171 00:10:28,445 --> 00:10:31,836 different department store that I had started in a department 172 00:10:31,891 --> 00:10:35,449 store in San Francisco, they and another division in Sacramento, 173 00:10:35,505 --> 00:10:39,007 they offered me a big promotion to go there. My boss in the new 174 00:10:39,063 --> 00:10:42,454 situation, when I sat down, he said, Look, I've been here for 175 00:10:42,510 --> 00:10:46,012 three months longer than you and I've identified the areas that 176 00:10:46,068 --> 00:10:49,181 are weak, we need to make changes. And I think these few 177 00:10:49,237 --> 00:10:52,628 people as needed, we probably need to change them out. Figure 178 00:10:52,683 --> 00:10:56,075 out what you think. And let me know so one of them. I came to 179 00:10:56,130 --> 00:10:59,577 him said, You are right. I need to fire her. She's clearly not 180 00:10:59,633 --> 00:11:03,191 going to be the person to get us the next level. He said, Great. 181 00:11:03,246 --> 00:11:06,860 I couldn't bring myself to fire. She, you know, I was 26. She was 182 00:11:06,915 --> 00:11:10,418 much older. She had a family. I just couldn't I didn't know how 183 00:11:10,473 --> 00:11:13,809 to do it. I mean, I just didn't know how to do it. And every 184 00:11:13,865 --> 00:11:17,200 week at my weekly meeting, he would say, Hey, Gary, have you 185 00:11:17,256 --> 00:11:20,647 fired her yet? No, I haven't. Finally, six weeks later, after 186 00:11:20,703 --> 00:11:24,205 asking me half a dozen times. He said, You know what? I've done 187 00:11:24,261 --> 00:11:27,430 this for a long time. I'm obviously more experienced than 188 00:11:27,485 --> 00:11:30,988 you. This is not my first rodeo. I'm the one that identified or 189 00:11:31,043 --> 00:11:34,379 would you like me to go ahead and do that for you? And now I 190 00:11:34,434 --> 00:11:37,770 know I'll do it. I promise you, Marvin, I'll do it. He said, 191 00:11:37,826 --> 00:11:41,106 Well, I have no problem doing it. So I said, Well, gee, you 192 00:11:41,161 --> 00:11:44,497 know, if you have no problem doing it, maybe yeah, if you do 193 00:11:44,552 --> 00:11:47,833 that, that'd be great. He said, super. I'll do it. He spins 194 00:11:47,888 --> 00:11:51,446 around in his desk. He picks up an old desk phone a dials HR. He 195 00:11:51,502 --> 00:11:54,837 said, Would you please send me Gary's next paycheck? Thanks, 196 00:11:54,893 --> 00:11:58,117 but and he turned around, I said, What? He said, Gary, we 197 00:11:58,173 --> 00:12:01,675 do the stuff we like, for free, we get paid to do this stuff we 198 00:12:01,731 --> 00:12:05,122 don't like. And he said, that's something you don't like, I'm 199 00:12:05,178 --> 00:12:08,569 not gonna like it, but I won't get paid for it. If you're not 200 00:12:08,625 --> 00:12:12,127 going to do it. I want your pay for doing that. I said, I'll do 201 00:12:12,183 --> 00:12:15,240 it right away. And and that served me well then. And it 202 00:12:15,296 --> 00:12:18,854 served me well in conversations. Since then, when I've had those 203 00:12:18,910 --> 00:12:21,856 same issues, because nobody liked your first time you 204 00:12:21,912 --> 00:12:24,969 terminate someone, it's a nightmare. Yet, you're up all 205 00:12:25,025 --> 00:12:28,194 night, throwing up it just horrible. And so sometimes you 206 00:12:28,249 --> 00:12:31,807 need a little pep talk. And that was the one I got. And it stood 207 00:12:31,863 --> 00:12:33,420 me in good stead ever since. 208 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:37,170 Stephanie Maas: And I think to one of the things I appreciate 209 00:12:37,170 --> 00:12:40,320 that I heard from you, it's just the humanity of it. If there 210 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,110 wasn't that human element, firing people wouldn't be easy. 211 00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:45,300 But to your point, she was older, she had a family older 212 00:12:45,300 --> 00:12:48,870 than you, you know how to family. And here you are up at 213 00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:52,050 night, and but not forgetting the humanity side of it. It's 214 00:12:52,050 --> 00:12:56,070 super important. Okay, so if I'm hearing correct, so you start 215 00:12:56,070 --> 00:13:00,720 out kind of on one path in your career, when did you know you 216 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,200 really had this entrepreneurial bug? 217 00:13:04,830 --> 00:13:08,190 Gary Kusin: I didn't know. I think it's safe to say I had no 218 00:13:08,190 --> 00:13:12,480 idea. I'm not sure I could spell entrepreneur. But what I'm sure 219 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,250 of is when I graduated business school, my first desire was to 220 00:13:17,250 --> 00:13:21,510 figure out how to make sure my now wife would marry me if asked 221 00:13:21,510 --> 00:13:23,790 her to marry me. And I had mentioned to her if you could 222 00:13:23,790 --> 00:13:26,190 live anywhere in the she's in law school down in Texas, if you 223 00:13:26,190 --> 00:13:29,190 could live anywhere you wanted to live in the US, where would 224 00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:32,520 that be? And she didn't take long to say San Francisco. So I 225 00:13:32,820 --> 00:13:36,510 went back to graduate school and I wandered into the placement 226 00:13:36,510 --> 00:13:40,080 officer. I said, Well, what do we have in San Francisco? And it 227 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,410 was two big department store chains. And since I've grown up 228 00:13:43,410 --> 00:13:46,110 my family in the retail furniture business, I said, 229 00:13:46,110 --> 00:13:50,430 Yeah, okay, I'll do that. And that's what I did. But once I 230 00:13:50,430 --> 00:13:53,790 got into the department store business, and I started to 231 00:13:53,790 --> 00:13:58,530 understand it in I started to go into our stores and malls. I was 232 00:13:58,620 --> 00:14:02,730 realizing that specialty stores were popping up in the malls 233 00:14:02,730 --> 00:14:05,970 that were stealing our lunch in department stores, you know, 234 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,300 stores like the gap. All of a sudden they went our denim 235 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,300 business, you know, Lane Bryant there when our large size 236 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:15,720 business, I could run right jewelry there, Zales there when 237 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,230 our jewelry business. And I started developing a point of 238 00:14:19,230 --> 00:14:21,960 view about department stores that were so fragmented with 239 00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:24,960 different names on in each city go to the major department 240 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,180 stores had a different name, even though they were owned by 241 00:14:27,180 --> 00:14:31,590 the same large company. So I started lobbying. I started with 242 00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:34,650 two things. One, we're getting our lunch taken. And if you 243 00:14:34,650 --> 00:14:39,210 can't see it, here's the data. And there was data that just we 244 00:14:39,210 --> 00:14:42,630 were growing at 10%. Well, that was great. But the specialty 245 00:14:42,630 --> 00:14:47,160 stores were going 40 50% A year and it was crazy. It was just 246 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,760 very obvious what was going on. And I developed a point of view 247 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,050 that said in any category of consumer goods that reaches 248 00:14:55,050 --> 00:14:59,520 measurable size, measurable size being a billion dollars back at 249 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,720 that time. I said a specialty channel will emerge that will 250 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,660 end up being an important if not dominant channel and 251 00:15:06,660 --> 00:15:10,170 distribution inside that segment. And I could prove it 252 00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:13,950 with data. So I went on this big tear inside of Federated 253 00:15:13,950 --> 00:15:17,430 Department Stores, telling anyone who'd Listen, guys, we're 254 00:15:17,430 --> 00:15:20,910 a dinosaur heading into the swamp. And we don't have to be, 255 00:15:21,150 --> 00:15:25,080 if we had a national name, we could compete with the limited 256 00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:29,610 by being called Macy's coast to coast or picking name. But 257 00:15:29,610 --> 00:15:32,850 everywhere we could develop the programs, we could do everything 258 00:15:32,850 --> 00:15:36,780 to compete. Well, when my business school buddy, we play 259 00:15:36,780 --> 00:15:40,260 poker every week, and we were on the same little section there. 260 00:15:40,590 --> 00:15:45,330 He had just been moved to the Silicon Valley to start working 261 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,630 with video game publishers. And he was coming through Dallas and 262 00:15:48,630 --> 00:15:51,780 some business. And we were dear friends. So he came over for 263 00:15:51,780 --> 00:15:55,530 dinner. And we sat at the kitchen table. And he showed me 264 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:00,630 all the data about the coming video game, and computers in the 265 00:16:00,630 --> 00:16:05,280 home, all the penetration curves going back to the first record 266 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,270 players to the first black and white TVs to the first alarm 267 00:16:09,270 --> 00:16:13,110 clocks, the penetration curves were the same. And he said there 268 00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:18,270 is no way video game machines, and the software that goes on is 269 00:16:18,270 --> 00:16:22,560 not going to become an enormous sector, there was not a single 270 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,770 video game store in the world. So he's pushing on an open door 271 00:16:25,770 --> 00:16:28,500 with me because I have been preaching to anyone who had 272 00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:32,520 listened. But in any category of consumer products that reaches 273 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,850 measurable size, the specialty store channel will be an 274 00:16:35,850 --> 00:16:38,520 important if not dominant channel of distribution. And I 275 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,010 told him all that I explained, Jim, this is really interesting. 276 00:16:41,010 --> 00:16:43,830 Let me tell you why. And by the time we were through, it's like, 277 00:16:43,830 --> 00:16:47,130 Well, Jim, you got to quit your job at banking, I have to quit 278 00:16:47,130 --> 00:16:50,400 my job at Federated Department Stores. And we got to do this. 279 00:16:50,580 --> 00:16:56,130 And he's like, really, and I'm like, I go home. My wife said 280 00:16:56,190 --> 00:16:59,790 what I said, Hey, wait, if Jim does it because Jim was talking 281 00:16:59,790 --> 00:17:02,670 to the class and our business school, if Jim thinks it's a 282 00:17:02,670 --> 00:17:06,120 good idea, that's our insurance policy. Jim was, of course go in 283 00:17:06,120 --> 00:17:09,480 and tell if his buddies have kids. And being a retailer, he 284 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,780 thinks it's a good thing. So we both quit our jobs. And the rest 285 00:17:12,780 --> 00:17:15,780 is history. And so we opened when we opened our first stores, 286 00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:19,350 the first software store in the history of the world. We had so 287 00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:23,430 much fun for the next 12 years until I jumped to start the 288 00:17:23,430 --> 00:17:26,550 cosmetics company. And we had gone public and we just bought 289 00:17:26,550 --> 00:17:29,490 our biggest competitor and it felt like the right time and 290 00:17:29,490 --> 00:17:33,690 somewhere in there. Towards the end of Babbage's I realized I 291 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,740 could do something else. And I just enjoyed the intellectual 292 00:17:37,740 --> 00:17:41,160 stimulation of coming up with what is the what's the 293 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,920 hypothesis? Or what's the investment thesis if you're in 294 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,580 private equity coming at something very rationally, and I 295 00:17:47,580 --> 00:17:50,490 had been meeting because I still had a little bit of department 296 00:17:50,490 --> 00:17:54,060 store blood in my veins had been meeting quarterly with the CEO 297 00:17:54,060 --> 00:17:57,090 of Neiman Marcus back then who was here in Dallas, he lived 298 00:17:57,090 --> 00:18:00,210 down the street from me. And I'd ask him anything new. And he 299 00:18:00,210 --> 00:18:03,090 would always say nope, nothing new, nothing new. But all of a 300 00:18:03,090 --> 00:18:05,730 sudden, one one time at lunch, he said, Let me tell you about 301 00:18:05,730 --> 00:18:10,350 this company called MAC Cosmetics. And I had cosmetic 302 00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:13,350 responsibility. And when he's talking to me, my brain started 303 00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:17,220 working. Oh my gosh, and I and I had a whole idea about what it 304 00:18:17,220 --> 00:18:19,590 might mean. And that's when I figured out I'm probably more of 305 00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:22,170 an entrepreneur than I give myself credit for being and 306 00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:23,970 that's where we went from there. 307 00:18:23,970 --> 00:18:27,185 Stephanie Maas: That is awesome. That is one of the coolest 308 00:18:27,260 --> 00:18:31,896 stories. Oh my gosh, we shift gears ever so slightly. You talk 309 00:18:31,971 --> 00:18:36,308 about you know, 1000 hours in mentorship conversation. And 310 00:18:36,383 --> 00:18:39,150 that's you mentoring others, correct? 311 00:18:39,150 --> 00:18:41,754 Gary Kusin: Yes, I probably needed it for myself. But I was 312 00:18:41,810 --> 00:18:43,140 too dumb to know better. 313 00:18:43,140 --> 00:18:45,599 Stephanie Maas: You're doing just fine. I think so. Talk me 314 00:18:45,656 --> 00:18:49,259 through both sides of that. When do you recommend that somebody 315 00:18:49,316 --> 00:18:53,033 starts looking at a mentor? What do you look for in a mentor? How 316 00:18:53,090 --> 00:18:55,950 do you know they're the right person? What are the 317 00:18:56,007 --> 00:18:59,552 expectations to get out of that? And then we'll go to the flip 318 00:18:59,610 --> 00:19:01,440 side about where you focus, etc. 319 00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:06,510 Gary Kusin: Well, I think it's important to know that and I 320 00:19:06,510 --> 00:19:09,690 will tell you as I got into mentoring, it was very organic, 321 00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:14,430 is people I had worked with, who was family members, it was a it 322 00:19:14,430 --> 00:19:18,630 was people who knew me, who called me and said I've got this 323 00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:22,260 thing going on and I need some I need some advice. And that's how 324 00:19:22,260 --> 00:19:26,490 it's kind of started as opposed to I never have mentored someone 325 00:19:26,490 --> 00:19:28,770 that's we're going to meet once a quarter we're gonna go to 326 00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:32,940 Starbucks, we're going to that's not me. But the last few years 327 00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:37,650 is the pace of this has picked up and I've started realizing 328 00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:43,170 actually the dangers of some mentoring. I am becoming more of 329 00:19:43,170 --> 00:19:47,280 a student of mentoring. And they all just tell you I have some 330 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:53,040 real issues with the use of the word mentoring and corporations 331 00:19:53,070 --> 00:19:55,680 who as part of their leadership and development, 332 00:19:55,830 --> 00:19:59,640 organizationally, set up mentoring relationships now I'm 333 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,030 in favor We've all heard because it sounds good. And it should be 334 00:20:03,030 --> 00:20:06,570 part of any leadership development. But there is a very 335 00:20:06,570 --> 00:20:10,620 large risk. I know from the other side of the table as a CEO 336 00:20:10,620 --> 00:20:15,510 of companies that had 25,000 or more employees, I have seen what 337 00:20:15,540 --> 00:20:19,860 bad things can happen if you use the word mentor. And let me 338 00:20:19,890 --> 00:20:23,250 just, these are not exact numbers. But I'm going to say 339 00:20:23,250 --> 00:20:28,830 somewhere between a third and 40% of the times that I have 340 00:20:28,830 --> 00:20:32,340 gotten a call from someone in a corporate setting, who really 341 00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:35,610 needed to talk with something about me, at least a third to 342 00:20:35,610 --> 00:20:42,300 40% of them had to do with hostile environment had to do 343 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,710 with the legal goings on. And so let me tell you why I 344 00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:51,660 immediately get very upset about that. Now imagine if you are a 345 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,790 mentor, and I am your mentee. And I tell you, I don't know 346 00:20:56,790 --> 00:21:01,470 what to do with this. But my friend and my peer is having an 347 00:21:01,470 --> 00:21:06,480 affair with my boss. Now, let's just say in that situation, you 348 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,780 are dear friends with that boss, and you can't believe what you 349 00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:15,480 just heard. Now you are in trouble because you have a duty 350 00:21:15,630 --> 00:21:21,900 as a senior officer of a big corporation to report to HR if 351 00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:25,230 there's malfeasance hostile environment, anything like that? 352 00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:33,090 Well, if it's a third to 40% of every mentoring situation, it's 353 00:21:33,090 --> 00:21:36,660 my belief that companies should not use the word mentor mentee, 354 00:21:36,660 --> 00:21:43,290 it suggests a confidentiality it suggests, which is not true. It 355 00:21:43,290 --> 00:21:47,160 can't be true in a corporate environment. But it suggests 356 00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:52,680 things that can't be delivered. And especially if my heart goes 357 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,750 out to young people in a career trying to build a career for 358 00:21:57,750 --> 00:22:02,310 themselves, who maybe they stumbled into relationship with 359 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,670 someone higher up in the company, or who knows, I've seen 360 00:22:05,670 --> 00:22:10,230 every permutation of this you can do. But so I'm an advocate 361 00:22:10,590 --> 00:22:14,940 of using the word coach. And and this isn't just semantics, 362 00:22:14,940 --> 00:22:18,420 because if you asked 100 people what it means to be a mentor and 363 00:22:18,420 --> 00:22:21,420 100 people what it means to be a coach, you're going to get a 364 00:22:21,420 --> 00:22:25,500 very narrowed scope for a coach. There's something very specific, 365 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,070 they've got a very specific skill set. And they can teach 366 00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:32,610 that. So maybe there's a workgroup in an in an area in 367 00:22:32,610 --> 00:22:36,120 the IT area that's coding, and doesn't quite, you know, they 368 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,640 got to work through things. Well, their coach should have 369 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,730 been there before. So they can sit down and tell people, okay, 370 00:22:41,730 --> 00:22:44,880 in this situation, here's what you did. And you can multiply 371 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,330 that by every functional area of a company because the coach has 372 00:22:48,330 --> 00:22:52,440 a very narrow purview. And as a potential mentee, I don't have 373 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,730 to tell you, if you're my coach, about something about there, 374 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,280 someone just got a kickback in my work group, and they're 375 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,070 gonna, and they're gonna open a restaurant with it. I mean, I've 376 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:07,680 seen that one too. So I worry a lot. A lot of the people that in 377 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,620 the corporate environments who have ended up on my doorstep 378 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,940 wasn't their first doorstep. They realized in their mentoring 379 00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:19,350 session, oh, you know, red flag goes up, and I can't, I can't 380 00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:22,350 have this conversation. But I need to have it because I don't 381 00:23:22,350 --> 00:23:25,590 know what to do. And that's where they end up on my 382 00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:31,110 doorstep. And that's why I have this thing about mentoring is 383 00:23:31,110 --> 00:23:36,570 not so wonderful. If it's not really thought out upfront. And 384 00:23:36,570 --> 00:23:41,010 what could go wrong. All those issues, Jelena who's my co host 385 00:23:41,010 --> 00:23:44,790 on INR. Our podcast is about mentoring. And in fact, it's 386 00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:47,640 eavesdropping on mentoring sessions we're having with 387 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,820 people so the listener can hear honest God real mentoring 388 00:23:50,820 --> 00:23:54,360 sessions, we are talking about having CEO and we both know a 389 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:58,710 bunch of them CEOs of really interesting companies on to talk 390 00:23:58,710 --> 00:24:01,710 with them about leadership and development on their watch. How 391 00:24:01,710 --> 00:24:05,010 do they think about it, throw out this hot sports opinion I 392 00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:10,320 have about mentoring being risky, and get feedback, because 393 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,440 maybe I'm wrong. You know, maybe they're maybe there ways that 394 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:18,660 they do it. That is safer. But I'd never paid attention. 395 00:24:18,780 --> 00:24:22,140 Because I wasn't out there advertising myself as a mentor. 396 00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:25,500 I was just getting inbound. And the more inbounds I got, the 397 00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:28,200 more I got and it grew. And then next thing I know the people 398 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,320 that I talked to three years ago call and say, Hey, you helped me 399 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,070 three years ago, I got a bigger situation now. And next thing 400 00:24:35,070 --> 00:24:38,640 you know, I've been mentoring some people for 15 years, but 401 00:24:38,670 --> 00:24:42,570 only episodic and only if it's something that they didn't see 402 00:24:42,570 --> 00:24:45,180 coming and they really it's an issue. 403 00:24:45,180 --> 00:24:48,490 Stephanie Maas: This has been super cool. I so appreciate your 404 00:24:48,562 --> 00:24:52,232 time as we kind of start thinking about wrapping up 405 00:24:52,304 --> 00:24:56,766 anything else we haven't touched on that you want to make sure 406 00:24:56,838 --> 00:24:57,630 that we do? 407 00:24:57,630 --> 00:25:00,641 Gary Kusin: No, I read your website. And I've listened in to 408 00:25:00,704 --> 00:25:04,657 some of the things you put up on YouTube. And it's, I'm so glad 409 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,485 you guys do this. I mean, I think this is I think what y'all 410 00:25:08,548 --> 00:25:12,376 are doing is awesome. There is something that I feel close to 411 00:25:12,438 --> 00:25:16,203 when I hire people, you talk about helping people get better 412 00:25:16,266 --> 00:25:20,219 and intensity and all that. And how do you get the energy up to 413 00:25:20,282 --> 00:25:24,361 do what needs to be done? We put a big accent on this. When I've, 414 00:25:24,424 --> 00:25:28,251 in companies I'm involved in on hiring, what do you look for? 415 00:25:28,314 --> 00:25:31,640 And because I think so much of this can be if you are 416 00:25:31,702 --> 00:25:35,467 interviewing against that as a skill set, you stand a better 417 00:25:35,530 --> 00:25:38,919 chance of having people come into the company that are 418 00:25:38,981 --> 00:25:42,997 emotionally set up for what you want to do. And for instance, in 419 00:25:43,060 --> 00:25:46,762 a in a turnaround situation, like like we had at Kinkos, we 420 00:25:46,825 --> 00:25:50,527 interviewed for kind of four things as mission critical and 421 00:25:50,590 --> 00:25:54,355 that we have to have a point of view after you spend an hour 422 00:25:54,418 --> 00:25:58,245 with a potential new person in the company, you got to have a 423 00:25:58,308 --> 00:26:01,948 point of view about these things. One is energy level. Did 424 00:26:02,010 --> 00:26:05,838 they feel like they had energy that I feel like they're gonna 425 00:26:05,901 --> 00:26:09,478 bring it every day to work? intellectual curiosity? Okay, 426 00:26:09,540 --> 00:26:13,305 did I? Did I ask interesting questions? Do they wonder about 427 00:26:13,368 --> 00:26:17,196 things three, and this is really important, I'll tell you why 428 00:26:17,259 --> 00:26:21,337 this is my most high aspiration. If I'm interviewing someone, and 429 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,165 I say, what is your, what's your end of the rainbow job. And 430 00:26:25,228 --> 00:26:29,244 they, if they say something like your job, I want your job. It's 431 00:26:29,306 --> 00:26:32,632 like, boom, you're hired, because I need someone with 432 00:26:32,695 --> 00:26:36,460 really high aspirations. And then the fourth, which sounds a 433 00:26:36,523 --> 00:26:40,288 little weird, but I found it to really be true. If I talk to 434 00:26:40,350 --> 00:26:44,115 someone, and I don't feel like they're driven to win, that's 435 00:26:44,178 --> 00:26:48,006 fine. As long as I do feel that they will refuse to lose. And 436 00:26:48,068 --> 00:26:51,582 those are two very different thoughts. Because sometimes 437 00:26:51,645 --> 00:26:55,536 people who are hyper competitive and they got a win, win, win, 438 00:26:55,598 --> 00:26:59,489 win win, well, maybe they're too much, maybe too much glass is 439 00:26:59,552 --> 00:27:03,191 gonna get broken. But if someone refuses to lose, that's a 440 00:27:03,254 --> 00:27:06,831 different thing. That's when they're, when they're in the 441 00:27:06,893 --> 00:27:10,784 middle of the night, and they're thinking about something they 442 00:27:10,847 --> 00:27:14,800 are no, I'm not gonna let this happen. And when I mentioned the 443 00:27:14,862 --> 00:27:18,565 highest aspiration, the most probably the most proud thing, 444 00:27:18,627 --> 00:27:22,518 and I'll leave it at this that I've had in my business career. 445 00:27:22,581 --> 00:27:26,597 13 people on my turnaround team at Kinkos are CEOs. And that, to 446 00:27:26,659 --> 00:27:30,424 me is a incredible tribute to them. Because they were all of 447 00:27:30,487 --> 00:27:33,813 these they refuse to lose at a minimum. They had high 448 00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:37,264 aspirations. They were intellectually curious and they 449 00:27:37,327 --> 00:27:39,900 made stuff happen. High energy, it works. 450 00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:42,150 Stephanie Maas: That's incredible. And thank you so 451 00:27:42,150 --> 00:27:45,600 much for sharing that and I really appreciate your time and 452 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,780 availability today. This has been for lack of a better word 453 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:52,410 energizing, but also very insightful. So thank you, Gary. 454 00:27:52,590 --> 00:27:54,180 Gary Kusin: You bet. Thanks for having me.