So that is one way, that is one way of dealing

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with the storms of life or dealing with the

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chaos, the uncontrolled, is to shrink them down,

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to reduce them down, to reduce it to

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a known and predictable space where we can just

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live in relative comfort.

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So we organize the world into this kind of round,

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smooth frictionless space.

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And then when Leviathan finally does get in

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there, it's going to be terrifying because

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we don't know how to deal with him anymore.

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So Kyle, in our world today, it feels like we're

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the most advanced, you know, there's

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all this progress in science and technology and

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all of these things and all the other

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buzzwords that could be used.

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And yet at the same time, there's this element of

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chaos and the uncontrollable that we all

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face and experience.

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So we're going to talk about that in this

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episode, because that's a very real experience

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for all of us.

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Tell me about how humans have tried to respond to

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the uncontrollable in the past.

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Like what are strategies, what are ways we've

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looked at when things happen that we can't

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explain or we don't know what to do with

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how have humans in the past handled that?

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I like what you're saying there.

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It does seem like in our age right now.

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We are transitioning from a stage where there's

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just been a lot of equilibrium, a lot of smooth

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sailing you might say, toward what some people

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say would be more of a gray zone, you know,

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where there's just more potential for chaos.

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But regardless, we've always had to face it.

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To be human is to face in ourselves

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the possibility of chaos.

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And there are certain times in history where

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chaos or the uncontrolled was just more part

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of your everyday experience.

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It was just assumed that there was a lot of

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uncontrolled forces in the world in a way

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that for us, we don't have

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that experience quite so much.

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We're used to being in charge, we're used to

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being in control a bit more.

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But to your question there, how have people dealt

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with the uncontrolled, how have they

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dealt with chaos?

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I think it's unfair to people, the ancients might

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say, to just say that they lived in

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a world of just credulity where they had no ways

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of understanding chaos and uncontrolled

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things and the whole world was just like magic

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and they used incantations, which they knew

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didn't work.

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But they did have ways of both confronting and

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corralling and also constructing responses

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to chaos and the uncontrolled.

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In the sphere of like religion, one of the more

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extreme ways that you could talk about

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controlling or at least not controlling, you

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couldn't control it, but governing chaos was

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through some form of sacrificial ritual.

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So for example, some gods like Moloch, Canaanite

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god, he was the sort of god you had to appease.

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So it's like, I know that Moloch can at least

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corral chaos, sometimes he causes it, so to

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make him not cause it, I'm going to offer some

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kind of appeasing sacrifice.

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What's really horrifying about Moloch was he

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demanded a child sacrifice as a means of

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appeasement, right?

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But that is one way they responded, it's like

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some form of appeasement.

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They also had a really rich vocabulary to name

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chaos in a way that we are, I think our

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language is a little bit more impoverished.

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In the biblical story, you start off and there is

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immediately a triumph of God over

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the uncontrolled and the chaotic.

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And also I think he doesn't withdraw from it, he

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doesn't like name it evil.

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There's the creation story,

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there's God in the beginning, right?

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And then he creates and there is the Hebrew tohu

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wabohu, it's formlessness, it's chaos,

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you might say.

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It's like a churning mass and then God speaks

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again and he takes action on that and he begins

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to form things that are distinct,

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you know, further clarification.

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But what's interesting about the biblical story

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is that when God creates and the spirit

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broods, everything takes its origins here and

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there's this mass of turbulent water we say

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and then that's carried forward, okay?

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It's carried forward in the Psalms, it's carried

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forward, you see in Isaiah and especially

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then in the Gospels, I think

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we'll get to that a little bit later.

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But you'll see the activity of God towards that

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is to work with it and he sees possibilities

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there.

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They had language to work with, just one more

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example maybe, I think it'll become relevant

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later on is that for the Romans, which the first

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Christians encountered, they also had

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a really elaborate system of governance, of

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ritual, of warfare, of heroes that they

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saw as a way of both curbing and

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controlling and exploiting chaos, okay?

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And it's very ritualized ways that they saw

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coming together, say in the Colosseum, the

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way they gave a picture of how they saw that

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Rome's enemies and criminals, those who would

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introduce chaos into the economy of Rome would be

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put under the thumb of the might

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of Rome and then there

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would be peace and prosperity.

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Interesting because Caesar Augustus, if I'm

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getting this right, was called the Prince

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of Peace or something like that.

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He'll bring peace to the world and all of these

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things and I guess that was their way

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of saying, "Yeah, we're going to control this.

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You don't fit in the system, we'll smash you

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because we can't allow the uncontrollable

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into our society."

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I think it's another way of saying it.

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And they were geniuses at it.

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The Romans, what made them dominate for so long

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was just their efficiency.

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They had incredible power and they could just

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crush dissent and communicate well and so their

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capacity there is really strong.

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So yeah, Prince of Peace, you

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will probably get there, right?

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But also you see Christians picking up some of

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the same language and saying, "You know

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what?

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Who the real Prince of

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Peace is, that's just a parody.

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He's the pretender.

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We know who the real Prince of Peace is."

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So the difficulty in our own lives and throughout

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the human experience across time, the difficulty

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is that chaos and what have

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you is unexpected, unpredictable.

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Yes?

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By definition, right?

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Yeah.

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Like, what do we do with that?

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You know?

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Uh-huh.

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That presents a challenge for people who are, you

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know, if you're going to be trying to

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control or manage the

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uncontrolled, it's exactly that.

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That's a threat to your credibility.

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If it's your job, right?

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If it's your job as a Ceasar or as a manager or

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as an administrator, whoever you are, if

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it's part of your job to deliver on results, to

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name outcomes or to at least say, "I'm

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going to make you peaceful and secure," that

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possibility of chaos coming in, it's a direct

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threat.

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Not just to your job, but

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it's to your credibility.

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Because it's your job, right, to see your way

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through chaos and to make certain kind

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of outcomes predictable there.

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And I would, if I can, just

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enlarge that a little bit.

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It seems as though that in our culture, you know,

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we don't have Rome in the same way that

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we used to.

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We don't sacrifice to Moloch, so we say.

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But what's become, what's really captured our

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imagination as a way to deal with chaos,

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as a way to tame Leviathan, that's one of those

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biblical pictures of a...

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Yes.

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This mythical sea monster who, I think he's

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historically real, but he also represents

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these untamed forces.

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And he lives in tohu wobahu, who he plays in the

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deep, the biblical authors say in Psalms.

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He seems to relish it.

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That's where he lives.

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In our times, we've turned increasingly to

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competence and management.

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We place a heroic individual in a boardroom, and

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he is the one who can name outcomes and

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say, "We should be here, here, and here, and

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here's the timeline, and we're going to break

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that down into smaller tasks for you.

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And we'll have regular meetings until we achieve

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that outcome, and that's how we will tame

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Leviathan, put order to things, break down the

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tasks, name outcomes, and then you can

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become...you can optimize the process."

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And I am describing there, it'd

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be called the Taylorian management.

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There's other ways of talking about management,

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but that's the one that most kind of clearly

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laid out.

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You identify an outcome, you outline ways to get

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to that outcome, and then you take

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the process and you optimize it.

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And I think it's that

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optimization that we're still in love with.

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You're optimizing

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your...is this efficiency as well?

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Would that be another way of describing this?

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I think so.

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You know, optimization is the process.

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Efficiency is like the

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characterization of the system.

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You have an efficient system.

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That's one that gets to the outcome with as least

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chaos as possible, with as least expense.

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Yeah, it's almost a trying to compensate for the

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unknown or control the unknown factors.

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Right?

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Like we're going to get this thing just as locked

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tight as we can to keep out the whatever,

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unpredictable thing that may hit us.

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Is this basically...that's kind of management

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theory in a lot of ways, right, for organizations

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and this, that, and whatever.

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I think that's right.

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It's a focusing in on one thing, one variable,

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and you're saying that's what our goal is

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here, and you exclude a lot of other things.

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And then once you've got that locked in, you

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identify the most expedient way to eliminate

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other possibilities and

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then to achieve that one thing.

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But back to your question a little bit, it is

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that nature, it's the nature of the chaotic,

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it's the nature of the uncontrolled [indistinct], to

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be exactly that, to be uncontrolled.

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It will arrive out of some kind of unexpected

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direction and it arrives on a timetable of

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its own.

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Yeah.

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This is so true.

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Okay, so to zoom in a little, how does what

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you're describing fit with this idealized

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view that many have in Western culture, or maybe

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just humans in general, of the hero,

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like the glorification of the individual who's

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going to be that rising star to single-handedly

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come in and tame the chaos

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and fix the whatever situation.

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I'm thinking like the way we lift up, figures

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like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar,

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these great men of history.

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How does that fit with what you're describing?

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Where does the idea of the

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hero come into this picture?

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You can learn a lot about a culture by taking a

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look at who their heroes are and who it

267

00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:34,211

is they see as being the good man, the great man.

268

00:12:35,129 --> 00:12:38,799

My suggestion here is that, like in times you've

269

00:12:38,799 --> 00:12:40,426

mentioned, like in Alexander the Great,

270

00:12:40,426 --> 00:12:42,344

Caesar, they saw their

271

00:12:42,344 --> 00:12:44,263

places on the battlefield, right?

272

00:12:44,638 --> 00:12:46,307

And that's where they confronted

273

00:12:46,307 --> 00:12:48,684

the chaotic and the uncontrolled.

274

00:12:51,061 --> 00:12:54,440

They also recognized, for some anyway, that this

275

00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:55,816

required something of them.

276

00:12:56,609 --> 00:12:59,987

They had to develop the capacities to enter

277

00:12:59,987 --> 00:13:03,991

bravely onto the battlefield, to enter into

278

00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,285

Parliament or whatever it is they're practicing,

279

00:13:07,077 --> 00:13:10,998

and that this may not be all about optimization.

280

00:13:12,458 --> 00:13:13,876

They're actually going to have to demonstrate the

281

00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:17,546

characteristics of a heroic person to

282

00:13:17,546 --> 00:13:18,464

be thought of as a leader,

283

00:13:18,964 --> 00:13:19,965

to be thought of as a hero.

284

00:13:20,674 --> 00:13:24,845

These days, we esteem more the optimizers.

285

00:13:26,263 --> 00:13:32,311

We esteem more the people who can build for us,

286

00:13:32,770 --> 00:13:34,939

or at least give the picture of for us,

287

00:13:34,939 --> 00:13:38,108

some kind of frictionless life, a life where

288

00:13:38,108 --> 00:13:41,946

we've removed adversaries, a place where

289

00:13:41,946 --> 00:13:44,114

we've removed frictions and obstacles.

290

00:13:45,741 --> 00:13:48,911

Like the modern equivalent, say, something like a

291

00:13:48,911 --> 00:13:51,205

Jeff Bezos, where with one click on

292

00:13:51,205 --> 00:13:53,165

Amazon it'll be delivered

293

00:13:53,165 --> 00:13:54,375

to my door the next day.

294

00:13:54,833 --> 00:13:57,002

No problems, no friction,

295

00:13:57,211 --> 00:13:58,629

just take care of the problem.

296

00:13:58,629 --> 00:13:59,672

I don't ever want to see it again.

297

00:14:00,089 --> 00:14:03,592

And society rewards people like that, say Jeff

298

00:14:03,592 --> 00:14:04,927

Bezos, as now being one of the richest

299

00:14:04,927 --> 00:14:06,720

men in the world, because he built this thing

300

00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,139

that fixes these problems and optimizes our

301

00:14:09,139 --> 00:14:09,431

lives.

302

00:14:10,391 --> 00:14:11,433

Or am I taking this too far?

303

00:14:11,684 --> 00:14:12,726

Would that be an example?

304

00:14:13,018 --> 00:14:15,688

No, I think you're giving a good example there in

305

00:14:15,688 --> 00:14:19,108

the example of quick delivery via

306

00:14:19,108 --> 00:14:19,650

Amazon.

307

00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:24,154

That's the frictionless ideal, is that perhaps we

308

00:14:24,154 --> 00:14:25,906

could even get to the place where further

309

00:14:26,782 --> 00:14:28,659

than me needing something, I don't really even

310

00:14:28,659 --> 00:14:31,328

have to prompt it, suggesting to me what

311

00:14:31,328 --> 00:14:32,371

I might need or want.

312

00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,164

And Amazon does that a lot.

313

00:14:34,415 --> 00:14:36,333

Amazon does really well with that, because you're

314

00:14:36,333 --> 00:14:37,710

willing to give a little bit of privacy

315

00:14:37,751 --> 00:14:40,170

away for the sake of surveillance so that they

316

00:14:40,170 --> 00:14:42,631

can predict for you what things you might want.

317

00:14:42,881 --> 00:14:43,799

Do you need more soap?

318

00:14:43,799 --> 00:14:44,758

I think you've run out of soap.

319

00:14:45,009 --> 00:14:47,052

Click this buy button and you can do it in one

320

00:14:47,052 --> 00:14:48,512

click, it takes you half a second and

321

00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:50,180

bingo, it'll show up at your door the next day.

322

00:14:50,556 --> 00:14:51,473

You can buy a smart fridge

323

00:14:51,473 --> 00:14:52,558

that'll help you do that.

324

00:14:52,558 --> 00:14:52,725

Yes.

325

00:14:52,766 --> 00:14:54,977

Keep inventory, it's like, I think you're about

326

00:14:54,977 --> 00:14:56,520

out of this, would you like to help,

327

00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:57,187

can I help you out?

328

00:14:57,563 --> 00:14:59,356

But that's the ideal, is the

329

00:14:59,356 --> 00:15:02,484

frictionless optimized life.

330

00:15:02,985 --> 00:15:06,614

Another way of saying it is that in that form of

331

00:15:06,614 --> 00:15:08,490

life, everything has become controlled,

332

00:15:09,158 --> 00:15:11,535

predictable and optimized for me.

333

00:15:11,702 --> 00:15:13,787

See, this is really interesting.

334

00:15:14,079 --> 00:15:17,750

Actually, I've never thought about smart fridges

335

00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:21,503

being a similar response, say, to chaos and

336

00:15:21,795 --> 00:15:22,338

trying to control our

337

00:15:22,338 --> 00:15:24,840

lives as ancient mythologies.

338

00:15:25,633 --> 00:15:26,925

Let's not take that too far.

339

00:15:27,343 --> 00:15:29,845

Yeah, obviously don't take it too far, but it

340

00:15:29,845 --> 00:15:32,848

does come back to that human need of, I

341

00:15:32,848 --> 00:15:34,600

really don't like when things are out of control.

342

00:15:35,809 --> 00:15:39,104

I just want everything to work and nothing break.

343

00:15:40,981 --> 00:15:42,107

It seems like it's touching at

344

00:15:42,107 --> 00:15:43,567

something that's a very human thing.

345

00:15:44,443 --> 00:15:47,529

Okay, so to bring it back around, as we were

346

00:15:47,529 --> 00:15:49,073

talking about the hero and things, thinking

347

00:15:49,073 --> 00:15:52,201

about does culture, I'm thinking, we're here in

348

00:15:52,201 --> 00:15:53,786

America, so I'm thinking Western American

349

00:15:53,869 --> 00:15:55,371

culture, whatever, have a warped

350

00:15:55,371 --> 00:15:58,916

view of what the truly heroic is?

351

00:15:59,750 --> 00:16:01,627

Well, and I find they're interesting too, like

352

00:16:01,627 --> 00:16:05,130

warped view perhaps, but I'm still just

353

00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:06,048

back there churning around

354

00:16:06,048 --> 00:16:08,258

so smart, like a smart fridge.

355

00:16:08,801 --> 00:16:09,677

What does that mean?

356

00:16:10,386 --> 00:16:14,139

At least I would suggest to make a bit of

357

00:16:14,139 --> 00:16:17,017

application there, we do need to become readers

358

00:16:17,226 --> 00:16:18,060

of our culture.

359

00:16:19,186 --> 00:16:22,189

We need to become aware, not just of like, "Oh,

360

00:16:22,189 --> 00:16:23,774

wow, I have a smart fridge," but what

361

00:16:24,566 --> 00:16:27,069

is this communicating to me about what

362

00:16:27,069 --> 00:16:28,987

constitutes a good life?

363

00:16:29,905 --> 00:16:32,950

If you need that, or depending on who it is

364

00:16:32,950 --> 00:16:35,703

you're turning to, say, a Bezos figure, as

365

00:16:35,703 --> 00:16:39,164

the chief optimizer, it's going to tell you a lot

366

00:16:39,164 --> 00:16:41,250

about commitments, about what it is

367

00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:44,586

you idealize as seeing a worthwhile life, and

368

00:16:44,586 --> 00:16:46,422

it's probably got to come back to an element

369

00:16:46,422 --> 00:16:48,882

of predictability, the controllability.

370

00:16:49,133 --> 00:16:50,426

Could you ask your question again?

371

00:16:50,426 --> 00:16:51,260

I'm losing the traffic.

372

00:16:51,510 --> 00:16:52,010

Yeah, yeah.

373

00:16:52,010 --> 00:16:55,013

So does our culture then have a

374

00:16:55,013 --> 00:16:56,974

warped view of what the heroic is?

375

00:16:56,974 --> 00:16:59,893

Or who we view as heroic, maybe if you want to

376

00:16:59,893 --> 00:17:02,855

bring it to a person, like who we say that's

377

00:17:02,855 --> 00:17:04,481

the heroes that we want to look up to?

378

00:17:05,983 --> 00:17:07,776

It's a good question.

379

00:17:07,776 --> 00:17:09,486

I feel like it's a partial view, and I could

380

00:17:09,486 --> 00:17:13,031

point out some liabilities for that view of

381

00:17:13,031 --> 00:17:15,325

things that sees the world basically in terms,

382

00:17:15,951 --> 00:17:19,329

again, of optimization, controllability, and

383

00:17:19,455 --> 00:17:20,080

predictability.

384

00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,127

The first thing that that world is going to be

385

00:17:25,127 --> 00:17:27,588

mute about, the first thing that it will

386

00:17:27,588 --> 00:17:29,882

miss, would be those things that

387

00:17:29,882 --> 00:17:32,801

are not quite so outcome-driven, okay?

388

00:17:33,469 --> 00:17:36,680

Things that are less than optimizable, we'd say,

389

00:17:37,097 --> 00:17:39,808

or that aren't predictable.

390

00:17:41,226 --> 00:17:45,481

And here's where some of the falseness of holding

391

00:17:45,481 --> 00:17:49,276

up as a hero, a person who you see

392

00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:51,320

as like, "Oh, he's like the chief optimizer."

393

00:17:52,237 --> 00:17:57,910

Well, it turns out in my own preparation for the

394

00:17:57,910 --> 00:18:01,038

session, it turns out that many of the

395

00:18:01,038 --> 00:18:04,792

most significant parts of our lives and of our

396

00:18:04,792 --> 00:18:07,711

collective lives together are actually

397

00:18:07,711 --> 00:18:08,629

kind of unpredictable.

398

00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,550

And they mark us, they leave an impression on us.

399

00:18:13,550 --> 00:18:19,431

So I'm thinking of things like 9-11, okay?

400

00:18:21,683 --> 00:18:24,478

Or COVID, a little bit more recent in our

401

00:18:24,478 --> 00:18:27,856

memories, and probably so traumatizing for

402

00:18:27,898 --> 00:18:29,691

Western cultures because it felt so

403

00:18:29,691 --> 00:18:31,985

uncontrollable, so unpredicted.

404

00:18:32,653 --> 00:18:34,696

And we tried our best to make

405

00:18:34,696 --> 00:18:36,031

it predictable and corralled it.

406

00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:39,368

We don't have to go far there.

407

00:18:40,077 --> 00:18:42,496

But it spun out of control.

408

00:18:42,579 --> 00:18:45,290

But the response there is what was interesting.

409

00:18:45,290 --> 00:18:46,834

We were, "Wow, this is out of control.

410

00:18:46,834 --> 00:18:47,459

That's frightening."

411

00:18:47,459 --> 00:18:48,961

But we can, we can, we can control it.

412

00:18:49,294 --> 00:18:49,545

Yeah.

413

00:18:50,379 --> 00:18:52,548

And that was the hope of the fall of Soviet

414

00:18:52,548 --> 00:18:56,426

Russia, a kind of unforecast, right?

415

00:18:58,512 --> 00:19:03,308

Or the rise of Nazism, also

416

00:19:03,308 --> 00:19:05,978

uncontrolled and unforecast.

417

00:19:07,062 --> 00:19:09,815

Arab Spring, a bit more recent as an example, a

418

00:19:09,815 --> 00:19:12,901

significant shaping event, right, in modern

419

00:19:12,901 --> 00:19:13,694

day Middle East.

420

00:19:14,444 --> 00:19:16,363

But it was not foreseen.

421

00:19:16,363 --> 00:19:17,739

It wasn't predicted by the analysts.

422

00:19:18,782 --> 00:19:22,744

So our ability, it turns out, our ability to

423

00:19:22,744 --> 00:19:27,040

predict things, to optimize things, to

424

00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,753

make things controllable is in fact limited to a

425

00:19:31,753 --> 00:19:34,256

very small portion of goods in our life.

426

00:19:34,965 --> 00:19:36,258

And I'm not saying we can't control anything.

427

00:19:36,466 --> 00:19:36,884

We can.

428

00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:40,304

We can make food arrive at certain times.

429

00:19:40,554 --> 00:19:41,889

We can have our fridge full.

430

00:19:42,723 --> 00:19:45,559

Some of that stuff, but it doesn't scale up very

431

00:19:45,559 --> 00:19:47,686

well to the stuff that really seems to

432

00:19:47,728 --> 00:19:48,103

matter.

433

00:19:49,396 --> 00:19:51,815

It's almost like it's a, you can optimize, but

434

00:19:51,815 --> 00:19:54,818

it's only on a lot of the surface level

435

00:19:56,111 --> 00:19:57,237

hands on type things maybe.

436

00:19:57,446 --> 00:19:59,031

But then there's so much underneath the surface

437

00:19:59,031 --> 00:20:01,491

that we just, you simply cannot.

438

00:20:02,701 --> 00:20:04,244

Is that a way of saying it?

439

00:20:04,244 --> 00:20:06,914

Maybe like materially goods.

440

00:20:07,372 --> 00:20:07,706

Yeah.

441

00:20:08,248 --> 00:20:08,457

Yeah.

442

00:20:08,624 --> 00:20:10,375

Like I can hit a button and something will arrive

443

00:20:10,375 --> 00:20:12,252

from Amazon, but I can't hit a button

444

00:20:12,252 --> 00:20:14,129

and fix a broken friendship.

445

00:20:15,088 --> 00:20:16,381

No, I don't think you can.

446

00:20:16,381 --> 00:20:16,798

No.

447

00:20:16,882 --> 00:20:17,799

It doesn't work that way.

448

00:20:18,008 --> 00:20:19,134

You know, like how do you optimize?

449

00:20:19,134 --> 00:20:20,052

There's like a lot of things

450

00:20:20,052 --> 00:20:21,887

that you just can't, you can't.

451

00:20:21,887 --> 00:20:23,889

And the question there becomes, and if you have

452

00:20:23,889 --> 00:20:27,643

the hero is the optimizer, he can offer

453

00:20:27,643 --> 00:20:31,021

you something when it comes to some portions of

454

00:20:31,021 --> 00:20:33,398

life, which are to a degree important.

455

00:20:34,066 --> 00:20:35,233

But what about when you've

456

00:20:35,233 --> 00:20:36,443

got that broken friendship?

457

00:20:37,736 --> 00:20:40,739

And if all we've got surrounded by is heroic

458

00:20:40,739 --> 00:20:44,826

optimizers, they kind of go quiet, or at least

459

00:20:44,993 --> 00:20:45,535

quieter.

460

00:20:45,535 --> 00:20:47,663

They don't have quite so much to offer there.

461

00:20:49,247 --> 00:20:52,376

So the danger, I think the danger we're

462

00:20:52,376 --> 00:20:57,089

anticipating there is that if

463

00:20:57,089 --> 00:20:58,298

you are at a time of relative

464

00:20:58,298 --> 00:21:03,428

calm, if you're at a time where things are going

465

00:21:03,428 --> 00:21:06,515

well, the optimizers can remain heroic.

466

00:21:07,808 --> 00:21:09,643

But Leviathan still might be there.

467

00:21:10,727 --> 00:21:14,439

He's just hasn't fully been known yet.

468

00:21:14,481 --> 00:21:18,151

Or he may be at a phase of history where it's

469

00:21:18,151 --> 00:21:20,362

relatively peaceful and chaos seems to

470

00:21:20,362 --> 00:21:21,655

be kind of in the background.

471

00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:27,995

My own fear is that we could prepare people and

472

00:21:27,995 --> 00:21:30,414

designate them as leaders or heroes who

473

00:21:30,414 --> 00:21:33,083

are in a lot of ways, optimizers, who are in a

474

00:21:33,083 --> 00:21:34,459

lot of ways thinking, you know, the world

475

00:21:34,459 --> 00:21:35,585

is basically governable.

476

00:21:36,169 --> 00:21:38,296

My job is to govern it and control it and to

477

00:21:38,296 --> 00:21:40,507

deliver results, to deliver outcomes.

478

00:21:40,757 --> 00:21:41,508

And I can do that in the

479

00:21:41,508 --> 00:21:42,926

most economical way possible.

480

00:21:43,427 --> 00:21:44,970

Using the fewest resources.

481

00:21:45,887 --> 00:21:49,099

And when chaos does poke its head up, we can

482

00:21:49,099 --> 00:21:50,809

either squash it or ignore it.

483

00:21:51,685 --> 00:21:54,646

But what the danger there is, if Leviathan does

484

00:21:54,646 --> 00:21:57,149

show his head, we could have prepared,

485

00:21:58,233 --> 00:21:59,943

we could have prepared a whole generation of

486

00:21:59,943 --> 00:22:04,114

people or ourselves who don't know what

487

00:22:04,114 --> 00:22:04,448

to do.

488

00:22:04,948 --> 00:22:05,615

They fall mute.

489

00:22:07,617 --> 00:22:09,745

Yeah, it's all Yeah, like what you were

490

00:22:09,745 --> 00:22:10,829

describing there, as

491

00:22:10,829 --> 00:22:12,205

you're saying that my brain was

492

00:22:12,247 --> 00:22:15,542

thinking, oh, assembly line, like this idea of

493

00:22:15,542 --> 00:22:17,502

like, I can optimize the assembly line,

494

00:22:17,502 --> 00:22:20,005

I can, when you're talking hands on things, we

495

00:22:20,005 --> 00:22:22,716

can figure out how to build stuff and make

496

00:22:22,716 --> 00:22:25,594

things and fix this process and all of that.

497

00:22:25,677 --> 00:22:28,430

But then when it comes to things that don't fit

498

00:22:28,430 --> 00:22:32,559

into that framework, it does feel your

499

00:22:32,809 --> 00:22:34,478

life could spin out of control so fast.

500

00:22:34,478 --> 00:22:35,270

Yeah, yeah.

501

00:22:35,812 --> 00:22:37,439

Well, and even an example of that, though, you

502

00:22:37,439 --> 00:22:39,900

know, it's, it's, it's Henry Ford, who

503

00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:42,486

famously said, you know, you can have whatever

504

00:22:42,486 --> 00:22:44,446

color car you want, as long as it's black.

505

00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:45,489

Yes.

506

00:22:45,781 --> 00:22:48,325

And but what's happening there, what's happening

507

00:22:48,325 --> 00:22:51,244

there is he is, he's recasting this thing

508

00:22:51,244 --> 00:22:54,164

of transportation and this new invention of

509

00:22:54,164 --> 00:22:56,416

automobiles in terms of optimization.

510

00:22:57,501 --> 00:22:59,795

Okay, so you think everybody can have a car.

511

00:23:00,921 --> 00:23:02,839

But I hope you like black, because that's all

512

00:23:02,839 --> 00:23:04,883

you're going to get out of this vision

513

00:23:05,092 --> 00:23:06,635

of optimized processes.

514

00:23:07,177 --> 00:23:09,721

The world becomes kind of monochromatic, even in

515

00:23:09,721 --> 00:23:11,306

the goods, material goods you have.

516

00:23:12,057 --> 00:23:13,725

So there's that side of it.

517

00:23:13,725 --> 00:23:16,103

But I'm agreeing, you know, if if you would buy

518

00:23:16,103 --> 00:23:20,232

wholly into the ideal of optimization

519

00:23:20,232 --> 00:23:25,320

of frictionless life, it potentially becomes

520

00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,574

idolatrous, kind of in the tone of Isaiah

521

00:23:29,950 --> 00:23:30,450

44.

522

00:23:31,618 --> 00:23:36,289

And who but a fool would make his own god, an

523

00:23:36,289 --> 00:23:41,086

idol who cannot help him out one bit, kind

524

00:23:41,086 --> 00:23:43,088

of how it's- as I'm paraphrasing there a little bit.

525

00:23:43,088 --> 00:23:44,965

So that is one way that is one way of dealing

526

00:23:44,965 --> 00:23:48,218

with the storms of life or dealing with the

527

00:23:48,218 --> 00:23:51,805

chaos the uncontrolled is to shrink them down to

528

00:23:51,805 --> 00:23:54,975

reduce them down to reduce it to a known

529

00:23:55,058 --> 00:23:58,895

and predictable space where we

530

00:23:58,895 --> 00:24:00,564

can just live in relative comfort.

531

00:24:01,481 --> 00:24:04,693

So we organize the world into this kind of round,

532

00:24:04,693 --> 00:24:07,279

smooth, frictionless space.

533

00:24:08,613 --> 00:24:10,824

And then when Leviathan finally does get in

534

00:24:10,824 --> 00:24:12,742

there, it's got to be terrifying because we

535

00:24:12,742 --> 00:24:14,244

don't know how to deal with him anymore.

536

00:24:15,287 --> 00:24:17,539

And then you start telling this is really getting

537

00:24:17,539 --> 00:24:19,249

a bit tangential, but I think very

538

00:24:19,249 --> 00:24:21,334

relevant when the Leviathan does poke his head

539

00:24:21,334 --> 00:24:24,546

into we had everything working so well, you

540

00:24:24,713 --> 00:24:27,549

know, and then the unexpected, the uncontrollable

541

00:24:27,549 --> 00:24:30,385

happens, then people it seems like have have

542

00:24:30,385 --> 00:24:33,597

this very human expression of trying to explain

543

00:24:33,597 --> 00:24:35,932

it and comes to terms with the unexplainable.

544

00:24:36,183 --> 00:24:39,853

Oh. You know, oh, well, it's because of and and

545

00:24:39,853 --> 00:24:41,938

they'll come up sometimes with these crazy

546

00:24:42,189 --> 00:24:45,734

outlandish ideas of this happened because the

547

00:24:45,734 --> 00:24:46,902

government was controlling the weather

548

00:24:46,902 --> 00:24:49,321

to use some crazy absurd example or like they're

549

00:24:49,321 --> 00:24:51,072

they'll try to come up with an explanation

550

00:24:51,198 --> 00:24:52,324

to at least help make

551

00:24:52,324 --> 00:24:53,408

sense of it in their own heads.

552

00:24:54,242 --> 00:24:56,328

I feel like that's a very human thing and almost

553

00:24:56,328 --> 00:24:58,455

goes back to way back in the day, the

554

00:24:58,455 --> 00:25:01,750

ancient mythologies of oh, we had crop failure

555

00:25:01,750 --> 00:25:04,085

because we didn't sacrifice to the gods in

556

00:25:04,085 --> 00:25:06,087

the right way or something like that.

557

00:25:07,130 --> 00:25:09,132

That just feels like an incredibly human thing.

558

00:25:09,591 --> 00:25:10,926

Yeah, I think you're right.

559

00:25:11,218 --> 00:25:13,220

And that is that

560

00:25:13,220 --> 00:25:15,305

human tendency to look for causes.

561

00:25:16,848 --> 00:25:18,266

Oh, say, it's there in Job.

562

00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:20,810

Yes, you see life

563

00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:22,687

in terms of cause and effect.

564

00:25:23,563 --> 00:25:24,940

And there's always a clear cause.

565

00:25:26,024 --> 00:25:29,736

And some of the call of say a Job is it seems

566

00:25:29,736 --> 00:25:31,780

like by the time you get to the book, God's

567

00:25:31,863 --> 00:25:35,367

call there is to you know, he's understanding of

568

00:25:35,367 --> 00:25:37,077

that probing for cause, but he doesn't

569

00:25:37,077 --> 00:25:38,328

give the cause.

570

00:25:39,162 --> 00:25:41,706

We get a good view of the backstage ourselves in

571

00:25:41,706 --> 00:25:42,666

the beginning of the book.

572

00:25:42,666 --> 00:25:45,252

But even that isn't extremely clear.

573

00:25:45,252 --> 00:25:46,336

Why did this happen?

574

00:25:46,336 --> 00:25:48,838

And it's always Job's question goes unanswered.

575

00:25:49,548 --> 00:25:49,965

Yeah.

576

00:25:50,757 --> 00:25:52,926

That's a tough book to wrestle with, I think,

577

00:25:53,134 --> 00:25:54,803

probably by design, you know?

578

00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,890

Well, Leviathan shows his head in there a number

579

00:25:58,890 --> 00:26:00,642

of times, probably for that reason.

580

00:26:01,142 --> 00:26:02,143

That's a really great point.

581

00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,313

But I think it does part of what

582

00:26:05,313 --> 00:26:07,983

responding to the question there, too.

583

00:26:07,983 --> 00:26:10,527

And if we got caught in this web of trying to

584

00:26:10,527 --> 00:26:13,613

make things explainable, we can think that

585

00:26:13,655 --> 00:26:16,199

by explaining things, then we can control things.

586

00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:16,908

Yes.

587

00:26:17,367 --> 00:26:20,620

And if other people explain things that they're

588

00:26:20,620 --> 00:26:21,913

in control of them, right?

589

00:26:23,123 --> 00:26:27,460

But it can become it can become it can take the

590

00:26:27,460 --> 00:26:29,379

mystery out of it, for one thing, but

591

00:26:29,379 --> 00:26:30,839

it can also just become paralyzing.

592

00:26:31,381 --> 00:26:35,218

We never actually learn to face Leviathan.

593

00:26:36,011 --> 00:26:39,306

Because he will come, we can't always explain it.

594

00:26:39,639 --> 00:26:42,309

And to turn toward him with courage and faith

595

00:26:42,309 --> 00:26:45,895

doesn't always require of us that we fully

596

00:26:45,937 --> 00:26:46,688

understand.

597

00:26:47,397 --> 00:26:48,940

We can still accept it.

598

00:26:49,399 --> 00:26:51,901

This is part of my experience right now.

599

00:26:51,901 --> 00:26:52,777

I'm not fully sure

600

00:26:52,777 --> 00:26:54,988

I understand this is definitely adversity.

601

00:26:55,780 --> 00:26:57,615

I think Leviathan is showing his head this feels

602

00:26:57,615 --> 00:26:59,075

chaotic and there's a potential for

603

00:26:59,409 --> 00:27:03,038

loss of control and to take the next step of

604

00:27:03,038 --> 00:27:05,623

obedience without fully having to explain

605

00:27:05,623 --> 00:27:06,082

why.

606

00:27:08,543 --> 00:27:12,297

So as we think about all this, what then would

607

00:27:12,297 --> 00:27:14,799

you say is the Christian view of facing Leviathan

608

00:27:15,091 --> 00:27:19,471

or facing the uncontrollable, the chaos that

609

00:27:19,471 --> 00:27:21,473

will inevitably hit our lives?

610

00:27:21,848 --> 00:27:22,057

Yeah.

611

00:27:23,099 --> 00:27:24,184

The Christianity has a

612

00:27:24,184 --> 00:27:26,144

lot to offer here, I think.

613

00:27:27,312 --> 00:27:30,023

But one pre-requisite is it

614

00:27:30,023 --> 00:27:31,358

will have to change our lives.

615

00:27:32,776 --> 00:27:35,153

We're going to have to be willing to not just

616

00:27:35,153 --> 00:27:38,573

control, to manage, to optimize.

617

00:27:39,407 --> 00:27:40,700

Because you do notice if you if you're just

618

00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:41,284

trying to make for

619

00:27:41,284 --> 00:27:42,827

yourself a smooth and frictionless

620

00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,288

life, one of the things that happens is it tends

621

00:27:45,288 --> 00:27:48,375

to focus on our own comfort, our own

622

00:27:48,375 --> 00:27:50,752

need for preservation of that life.

623

00:27:52,087 --> 00:27:58,510

The Christian way offers a way that accepts some

624

00:27:58,510 --> 00:28:00,428

of the burden of facing chaos.

625

00:28:01,554 --> 00:28:05,558

And that's willing to say, yes, I can accept

626

00:28:05,558 --> 00:28:07,394

responsibility for that.

627

00:28:07,977 --> 00:28:10,438

And I can walk into that freely and with courage

628

00:28:10,438 --> 00:28:13,066

and faith, doing the best thing that I know.

629

00:28:14,067 --> 00:28:15,985

And leave some of the outcomes up to God.

630

00:28:17,112 --> 00:28:20,448

So I take some cues here, again, from the first

631

00:28:20,448 --> 00:28:25,412

pages of Scripture, where when God creates,

632

00:28:25,412 --> 00:28:29,791

when God creates, he creates that formless void.

633

00:28:30,458 --> 00:28:32,252

And it's interesting to me that it's not assessed

634

00:28:32,252 --> 00:28:36,714

as just evil, something to be fought against.

635

00:28:37,465 --> 00:28:40,760

The Spirit of God hovers over it.

636

00:28:40,969 --> 00:28:43,096

And there's the expectation that something more

637

00:28:43,096 --> 00:28:44,305

is going to come out of that.

638

00:28:44,305 --> 00:28:45,932

There's going to be formedness.

639

00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:47,892

There's going to be flourishing.

640

00:28:48,685 --> 00:28:50,812

So where the Spirit of God is hovering, you see

641

00:28:50,812 --> 00:28:52,564

the possibility of potential and the glory

642

00:28:52,564 --> 00:28:53,606

of God happening.

643

00:28:56,276 --> 00:28:58,945

So you move forward in the scriptural story and

644

00:28:58,945 --> 00:29:00,864

it comes up again where the actual phrase

645

00:29:00,864 --> 00:29:04,033

toho wa-bohu, who doesn't come up very much, but

646

00:29:04,033 --> 00:29:06,536

formlessness, voidness, and the possibility

647

00:29:06,619 --> 00:29:08,538

of chaos springing in from quarters.

648

00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:10,039

Yeah, that comes in quite a lot.

649

00:29:10,999 --> 00:29:14,461

And what's interesting is that that same pattern

650

00:29:14,461 --> 00:29:17,088

continues with God's work.

651

00:29:17,881 --> 00:29:20,300

There's the potential of chaos and the Spirit of

652

00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:22,135

God is hovering, he's brooding, and out

653

00:29:22,135 --> 00:29:25,597

of that comes praise of God and comes to

654

00:29:25,597 --> 00:29:27,557

flourishing of his people and creation.

655

00:29:28,808 --> 00:29:31,936

A man like Joseph, I think he's the first that

656

00:29:31,936 --> 00:29:34,481

said that the Spirit of God was actually

657

00:29:34,606 --> 00:29:36,441

on him in the Bible.

658

00:29:36,649 --> 00:29:37,358

And what does he do?

659

00:29:37,692 --> 00:29:38,568

He steps into a place, a

660

00:29:38,568 --> 00:29:40,487

foreign place, notwithstanding.

661

00:29:41,529 --> 00:29:43,615

And where there's the potential for formlessness

662

00:29:43,615 --> 00:29:47,202

and voidness through a famine, he brings some

663

00:29:47,202 --> 00:29:48,119

order to that.

664

00:29:48,786 --> 00:29:50,121

But it requires something of him.

665

00:29:50,830 --> 00:29:52,207

He's not just an optimizer,

666

00:29:52,207 --> 00:29:53,374

although he's pretty good at it.

667

00:29:54,584 --> 00:29:56,211

It also requires something of him.

668

00:29:57,045 --> 00:30:00,298

We carry that forward, there's so much here.

669

00:30:00,965 --> 00:30:02,717

But you get to the Gospels, right?

670

00:30:03,384 --> 00:30:07,555

There is another figure who we come to call the

671

00:30:07,555 --> 00:30:09,599

Son of God, and we recognize him as the

672

00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:13,353

Son of God partly through these pictures of him

673

00:30:13,353 --> 00:30:16,856

doing things like walking on the deep.

674

00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:25,281

He's walking on the formless void, and it doesn't

675

00:30:25,281 --> 00:30:26,699

really seem to affect him.

676

00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:31,746

He's not just avoiding it.

677

00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:34,874

He's on it, and he can

678

00:30:34,874 --> 00:30:37,752

command it, but he doesn't always.

679

00:30:38,670 --> 00:30:43,049

And that becomes a picture of who Jesus is, of

680

00:30:43,049 --> 00:30:47,595

what his willingness to enter into chaos

681

00:30:47,637 --> 00:30:51,266

and the uncontrolled, which ultimately finds, I

682

00:30:51,266 --> 00:30:53,309

think, its ultimate picture in his death

683

00:30:53,434 --> 00:30:54,102

on the cross.

684

00:30:54,978 --> 00:30:56,688

And that's the ultimate being out

685

00:30:56,688 --> 00:30:58,648

of control sort of event, his death.

686

00:31:00,233 --> 00:31:01,859

And a lot of things happen

687

00:31:01,859 --> 00:31:04,571

there, but it gives us a picture.

688

00:31:05,738 --> 00:31:06,823

What does it mean?

689

00:31:07,699 --> 00:31:10,493

What does it mean to meet Leviathan?

690

00:31:11,786 --> 00:31:12,704

Well does it mean

691

00:31:12,704 --> 00:31:16,040

controllability, predictability, optimization?

692

00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:21,004

Or is Jesus suggesting a different picture?

693

00:31:21,212 --> 00:31:23,256

I think he's suggesting a different picture.

694

00:31:24,966 --> 00:31:28,928

So for early Christians, for the first

695

00:31:28,928 --> 00:31:32,140

Christians, I'll just say for

696

00:31:32,140 --> 00:31:33,725

them, when they made confessions

697

00:31:34,392 --> 00:31:37,145

like Jesus is Lord, part of what they're saying

698

00:31:37,145 --> 00:31:38,730

is that the old and

699

00:31:38,730 --> 00:31:40,481

tottering system for controlling

700

00:31:40,523 --> 00:31:44,485

chaos of Rome couldn't deliver there anymore.

701

00:31:45,445 --> 00:31:47,363

When Paul writes in Thessalonians,

702

00:31:47,947 --> 00:31:50,283

he picks up this Roman catchphrase.

703

00:31:50,283 --> 00:31:50,908

It might have been Roman

704

00:31:50,908 --> 00:31:52,994

propaganda, you know, peace and prosperity.

705

00:31:54,078 --> 00:31:56,789

Rome is here to control chaos.

706

00:31:57,415 --> 00:31:58,625

And if you watch what's happening in the

707

00:31:58,625 --> 00:31:59,542

Colosseum, we'll give you a

708

00:31:59,542 --> 00:32:00,710

picture of what that's like.

709

00:32:01,377 --> 00:32:02,420

Caesar is at the top.

710

00:32:02,420 --> 00:32:03,087

We have legions.

711

00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,298

We've got great communication.

712

00:32:06,257 --> 00:32:07,383

We control chaos.

713

00:32:07,967 --> 00:32:11,179

And Paul picks that language up and says, you're

714

00:32:11,179 --> 00:32:13,014

hearing this language, peace and prosperity,

715

00:32:13,264 --> 00:32:14,766

and there's going to be sudden disaster.

716

00:32:15,433 --> 00:32:17,727

That title rightly belongs to Jesus.

717

00:32:19,020 --> 00:32:22,315

So Rome and Caesar just becomes an imposter, a cheap

718

00:32:22,315 --> 00:32:24,025

imitation of what Jesus promises.

719

00:32:26,444 --> 00:32:28,780

So I think people are probably going to be

720

00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:32,867

asking, okay, so how does this affect my life?

721

00:32:32,867 --> 00:32:33,451

How does this look?

722

00:32:33,451 --> 00:32:35,411

You know, like, what does this look like?

723

00:32:36,537 --> 00:32:39,165

There's an interesting piece here because you

724

00:32:39,165 --> 00:32:42,877

have in the ancient mythologies and the

725

00:32:42,877 --> 00:32:45,296

heroes that they lifted up is this great man

726

00:32:45,296 --> 00:32:48,508

comes in and, you know, it defeats the enemy.

727

00:32:48,925 --> 00:32:51,386

Slays the dragon, takes care of the chaos, fixes

728

00:32:51,386 --> 00:32:53,680

everything or the god of whatever, you

729

00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,890

know, has appeased and the weather is great and

730

00:32:55,890 --> 00:32:57,517

our crops don't fail this year.

731

00:32:57,517 --> 00:32:59,102

You know, you have those kinds of stories.

732

00:32:59,602 --> 00:33:02,939

But then in the gospel, you have Jesus comes and

733

00:33:02,939 --> 00:33:04,899

instead of doing all of that, he is killed.

734

00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,696

Like he dies and he leads by serving, you know,

735

00:33:09,904 --> 00:33:10,905

washing the feet of the disciples.

736

00:33:11,239 --> 00:33:12,532

And so it's like, whoa, okay,

737

00:33:13,116 --> 00:33:14,200

this is a different picture.

738

00:33:14,867 --> 00:33:18,079

This is a very different picture than, you know,

739

00:33:18,246 --> 00:33:20,164

Caesar Augustus, who is like, I'm going

740

00:33:20,164 --> 00:33:21,124

to control everything.

741

00:33:21,124 --> 00:33:22,083

I'm going to fix everything.

742

00:33:22,625 --> 00:33:23,710

Rome is the greatest thing

743

00:33:23,710 --> 00:33:26,504

ever, you know, on this earth.

744

00:33:27,714 --> 00:33:29,132

You want to talk a bit about some of that

745

00:33:29,132 --> 00:33:31,634

contrast and then yeah, like how do we actually

746

00:33:31,634 --> 00:33:37,265

live in the reality of that new, new reality of

747

00:33:37,265 --> 00:33:39,267

what Jesus has established by dying on

748

00:33:39,267 --> 00:33:40,560

the cross, I guess is a way of saying it.

749

00:33:41,102 --> 00:33:43,062

And you have the old, some of the oldest

750

00:33:43,062 --> 00:33:46,816

architecture we have shows that kind of world.

751

00:33:46,816 --> 00:33:47,483

You've got a pyramid.

752

00:33:47,942 --> 00:33:49,277

It all comes up to a point.

753

00:33:49,861 --> 00:33:53,030

There's a Pharaoh, the representative of god or the

754

00:33:53,030 --> 00:33:55,491

god himself, perhaps, and everything

755

00:33:55,491 --> 00:33:56,868

flows down from there.

756

00:33:56,868 --> 00:34:01,372

But what's strange here, there is a structure of

757

00:34:01,372 --> 00:34:02,832

authority in the kingdom and answers to

758

00:34:02,874 --> 00:34:03,207

Jesus.

759

00:34:04,167 --> 00:34:07,253

But the upside downness of it is part of what

760

00:34:07,253 --> 00:34:09,630

you're touching on is how do you understand

761

00:34:09,881 --> 00:34:11,215

what power looks like?

762

00:34:11,215 --> 00:34:12,592

How do you understand what it

763

00:34:12,592 --> 00:34:14,927

looks like to defeat death and chaos?

764

00:34:15,803 --> 00:34:17,430

Well, how about foot washing?

765

00:34:18,222 --> 00:34:20,099

How about self-giving love?

766

00:34:22,268 --> 00:34:26,105

And a willingness, a willingness to accept

767

00:34:26,105 --> 00:34:29,901

responsibility for those who are weaker than you

768

00:34:30,485 --> 00:34:36,616

A willingness to eventually, voluntarily enter

769

00:34:36,616 --> 00:34:38,826

into something as extreme as death.

770

00:34:39,827 --> 00:34:41,329

That's part of the Christian way.

771

00:34:42,580 --> 00:34:46,501

It's not a way of empowerment, of entitlement, of

772

00:34:46,501 --> 00:34:48,878

aggrandizement, of moving yourself up the

773

00:34:48,878 --> 00:34:51,255

ladder so you can get to the top of power and

774

00:34:51,255 --> 00:34:54,050

exercise more control, more predictability.

775

00:34:55,009 --> 00:34:58,304

It turns toward the chaotic.

776

00:34:59,931 --> 00:35:01,599

It acknowledges it, but it

777

00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:03,893

doesn't seem to need to tame it.

778

00:35:05,061 --> 00:35:07,271

And in some ways, it's a

779

00:35:07,271 --> 00:35:09,148

willingness to be crushed by it.

780

00:35:09,774 --> 00:35:11,442

And this is a paradox, right?

781

00:35:12,443 --> 00:35:14,779

But to be crushed by it and to

782

00:35:14,779 --> 00:35:16,697

give oneself over to God in hope.

783

00:35:18,324 --> 00:35:19,575

That sounds very different to me.

784

00:35:20,535 --> 00:35:24,121

The controller, the chief controller.

785

00:35:24,622 --> 00:35:28,709

It's almost like the culture and human nature

786

00:35:28,709 --> 00:35:30,545

says, "I'm going to collect as much power

787

00:35:30,628 --> 00:35:36,300

and influence and stuff and resources that I can

788

00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:37,885

so that I can control everything."

789

00:35:39,095 --> 00:35:40,930

And Christianity is the other way around,

790

00:35:41,681 --> 00:35:43,391

basically, where it's like you give yourself

791

00:35:43,432 --> 00:35:44,016

up.

792

00:35:44,016 --> 00:35:45,226

It's this pouring out of

793

00:35:45,226 --> 00:35:47,186

self and sacrificial love.

794

00:35:48,271 --> 00:35:50,773

And there's a quote I read.

795

00:35:51,524 --> 00:35:54,944

It says, "Culture tells us that it is in the

796

00:35:54,944 --> 00:35:57,154

public space or the public sphere

797

00:35:57,154 --> 00:35:58,656

maybe, up on the stage. That's where

798

00:35:58,656 --> 00:35:59,490

heroic leaders are made."

799

00:36:00,324 --> 00:36:02,159

And whereas Christianity is the other way around,

800

00:36:02,159 --> 00:36:03,536

it's those quiet moments of serving

801

00:36:03,536 --> 00:36:05,413

and giving up yourself.

802

00:36:05,413 --> 00:36:07,540

It's not up on the stage, with all the fancy

803

00:36:08,249 --> 00:36:10,877

"I'm the best, I'm the hero" moments.

804

00:36:11,502 --> 00:36:12,712

You want to speak into that a bit?

805

00:36:12,712 --> 00:36:13,337

Yeah, great.

806

00:36:14,755 --> 00:36:16,132

The culture we live in,

807

00:36:16,132 --> 00:36:18,217

it can so prize platforms.

808

00:36:19,135 --> 00:36:20,219

Yes, influencers.

809

00:36:20,636 --> 00:36:21,053

Yeah, sure.

810

00:36:21,053 --> 00:36:23,139

Is a nice modern word we use.

811

00:36:23,139 --> 00:36:24,265

Here we are talking about this.

812

00:36:25,641 --> 00:36:29,395

I think that Christianity is a lot about the

813

00:36:29,395 --> 00:36:31,272

preparation of a certain kind of people.

814

00:36:32,690 --> 00:36:36,360

And those people, maybe they perhaps could win a

815

00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,112

platform at some time, like who's to

816

00:36:38,112 --> 00:36:38,487

say?

817

00:36:39,697 --> 00:36:42,033

But that needs to be given up to God.

818

00:36:42,033 --> 00:36:46,412

And what the focus is, I think, is on a certain

819

00:36:46,412 --> 00:36:49,832

kind of person who is prepared to bring presence.

820

00:36:50,833 --> 00:36:52,835

So maybe the contrast could be helpful there.

821

00:36:52,835 --> 00:36:54,211

It's presence, not platforms.

822

00:36:55,046 --> 00:36:56,547

Oh, I like that.

823

00:36:56,839 --> 00:36:57,173

Yeah.

824

00:36:57,590 --> 00:36:59,842

That presence of, for example, we're talking

825

00:36:59,842 --> 00:37:02,970

about efficiency and optimizing, but presence

826

00:37:04,055 --> 00:37:06,474

is not very optimizable.

827

00:37:06,849 --> 00:37:07,516

Not awfully.

828

00:37:08,059 --> 00:37:09,352

That's why we begrudge it.

829

00:37:10,102 --> 00:37:11,270

And it doesn't.

830

00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:13,230

It seems so slow moving.

831

00:37:14,148 --> 00:37:17,360

Yeah, because optimizing is like fixing

832

00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:18,277

everything and checking

833

00:37:18,277 --> 00:37:19,320

everything off the to-do list

834

00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:20,696

and building systems and all of that.

835

00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,616

You need that in certain things, perhaps.

836

00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:29,580

Whereas presence is sitting with someone in their

837

00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:33,084

moment of grief, say, being there for someone

838

00:37:33,084 --> 00:37:34,752

when they're having a difficult time, helping

839

00:37:34,752 --> 00:37:37,713

someone in a way that would have been more

840

00:37:37,713 --> 00:37:40,049

efficient just to

841

00:37:40,383 --> 00:37:41,550

hire someone to take care of that.

842

00:37:41,550 --> 00:37:43,803

But instead, you show up and help that person

843

00:37:43,803 --> 00:37:46,263

with fixing something on their house, whatever.

844

00:37:47,723 --> 00:37:50,268

That doesn't check the efficiency box always.

845

00:37:50,977 --> 00:37:51,644

But it does check the

846

00:37:51,644 --> 00:37:53,521

presence box maybe or something.

847

00:37:53,521 --> 00:37:53,854

I don't know.

848

00:37:54,146 --> 00:37:54,772

Talk to me about that.

849

00:37:54,772 --> 00:37:57,400

Well, that strikes me as important because it

850

00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,153

corresponds to some of my experiences as

851

00:38:01,153 --> 00:38:01,779

a pastor.

852

00:38:03,197 --> 00:38:06,325

Part of my life, I'm an administrator and

853

00:38:06,325 --> 00:38:08,536

optimization is something I enjoy.

854

00:38:08,536 --> 00:38:09,870

I've got a bent toward efficiency.

855

00:38:10,871 --> 00:38:17,878

But as a pastor, you're just invited into, almost

856

00:38:17,878 --> 00:38:19,839

required to walk into these places

857

00:38:20,631 --> 00:38:22,383

where there's nothing optimizable.

858

00:38:25,344 --> 00:38:32,226

Grief, love, friendship, worship, lament.

859

00:38:33,185 --> 00:38:34,770

And then you're called into these sorts of

860

00:38:34,770 --> 00:38:37,940

situations where you can't offer optimization.

861

00:38:38,607 --> 00:38:41,068

And it would be sacrilege if you tried to.

862

00:38:41,944 --> 00:38:44,030

Because what this person is

863

00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:45,614

going through is just sacred.

864

00:38:46,741 --> 00:38:50,244

And what you can offer is the presence of God, is

865

00:38:50,244 --> 00:38:52,663

the presence of the Spirit, that kind

866

00:38:52,663 --> 00:38:55,374

of brooding over what it

867

00:38:55,374 --> 00:38:56,459

is they're going through.

868

00:38:58,669 --> 00:39:00,004

But that's only conveyed through presence.

869

00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:04,425

And what strikes me about those kinds of

870

00:39:04,425 --> 00:39:06,719

encounters is not only are

871

00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,721

they not optimizable, they're

872

00:39:08,721 --> 00:39:09,680

the ones that you come away

873

00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,015

and you say, "Wow, I was changed.

874

00:39:12,933 --> 00:39:14,435

The Lord met me in that."

875

00:39:14,894 --> 00:39:17,980

And rarely have I had that kind of experience in

876

00:39:17,980 --> 00:39:19,774

the moments where I feel like I'm in control.

877

00:39:20,775 --> 00:39:22,777

Yeah, that's really true.

878

00:39:22,777 --> 00:39:24,653

Because it's like you come away from something

879

00:39:24,653 --> 00:39:26,405

like that and you probably aren't going to

880

00:39:26,405 --> 00:39:29,492

say, "That was efficient and we optimized."

881

00:39:30,576 --> 00:39:32,912

But you will say sometimes coming through those

882

00:39:32,912 --> 00:39:34,371

moments, I'm just thinking of several

883

00:39:34,371 --> 00:39:37,041

right now, where you're like, "I was transformed.

884

00:39:38,042 --> 00:39:41,670

I was whoa, like I had growth."

885

00:39:42,254 --> 00:39:43,422

Or maybe not me.

886

00:39:43,422 --> 00:39:45,883

I mean that sounds- or that person experienced

887

00:39:45,883 --> 00:39:48,594

some really powerful redemption, or healing,

888

00:39:48,803 --> 00:39:49,178

or something.

889

00:39:50,179 --> 00:39:51,597

Well, I mean, there was no checklist where you

890

00:39:51,597 --> 00:39:53,933

just, "Yep, we did the formula and bingo,

891

00:39:53,933 --> 00:39:54,558

we fixed it."

892

00:39:55,142 --> 00:39:56,894

It's not those kinds of situations at all.

893

00:39:57,269 --> 00:39:59,271

And I wonder if the two might be kind of

894

00:39:59,271 --> 00:40:01,482

inversely related, where if

895

00:40:01,482 --> 00:40:03,275

you make the world optimized

896

00:40:03,275 --> 00:40:06,612

and controllable, predictable, exactly in

897

00:40:06,612 --> 00:40:09,949

proportion to that recedes our capacity to

898

00:40:09,949 --> 00:40:11,659

be like, "Wow, I think I was changed."

899

00:40:12,535 --> 00:40:18,499

Oh, and other things like hope, or expectation,

900

00:40:19,542 --> 00:40:23,087

faith, recede, where the

901

00:40:23,087 --> 00:40:24,255

horizon of the predictable

902

00:40:24,338 --> 00:40:25,923

increases, it seems to me.

903

00:40:26,590 --> 00:40:31,595

It's not so much about making the kind of world

904

00:40:31,595 --> 00:40:35,474

where we live in hope, where we live

905

00:40:35,933 --> 00:40:38,519

only as far as our presence will allow us to go,

906

00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:40,563

and we leave some of the rest up to

907

00:40:40,563 --> 00:40:40,855

God.

908

00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,064

And He comes through in

909

00:40:42,064 --> 00:40:43,524

some really surprising ways.

910

00:40:44,900 --> 00:40:48,070

Yeah, that's neat that you mentioned that,

911

00:40:48,070 --> 00:40:49,738

because I'm just thinking of some of the more

912

00:40:49,738 --> 00:40:52,283

powerful moments that I've

913

00:40:52,283 --> 00:40:55,035

witnessed or been transformed by.

914

00:40:55,286 --> 00:40:58,539

And they were generally in situations where it's

915

00:40:58,539 --> 00:41:00,791

like, "This is just out of control.

916

00:41:01,417 --> 00:41:02,585

I don't know what's happening."

917

00:41:03,127 --> 00:41:05,296

But there was a really

918

00:41:05,296 --> 00:41:08,382

powerful thing with presence.

919

00:41:09,091 --> 00:41:10,759

Yeah, prescence is definitely part of it.

920

00:41:11,427 --> 00:41:13,679

And there's a part you just can't really explain.

921

00:41:13,679 --> 00:41:15,055

It's not like I can look back and be like, "Oh

922

00:41:15,055 --> 00:41:17,600

yeah, these were the six things that came

923

00:41:17,641 --> 00:41:19,643

together and bingo, and made this."

924

00:41:20,019 --> 00:41:21,896

Although we frequently try to do that.

925

00:41:21,896 --> 00:41:25,608

Again, that mental energy we have as humans to

926

00:41:25,608 --> 00:41:26,942

look for causes and effects.

927

00:41:27,234 --> 00:41:28,652

Yeah, well, I've tried, yeah.

928

00:41:29,778 --> 00:41:30,696

We could really wear

929

00:41:30,696 --> 00:41:32,114

ourselves out there though, too.

930

00:41:32,364 --> 00:41:34,950

But it's just this, again, another quote here.

931

00:41:36,035 --> 00:41:38,996

"God leads by serving and saves by

932

00:41:38,996 --> 00:41:41,373

dying," like the example of Jesus there.

933

00:41:41,665 --> 00:41:43,918

I think that's a really important piece.

934

00:41:44,752 --> 00:41:49,215

And then the inverse, the myth of the hero tells

935

00:41:49,215 --> 00:41:52,343

us that dynamic, charismatic, and glorious

936

00:41:52,343 --> 00:41:54,261

individuals can heal cultures through their

937

00:41:54,261 --> 00:41:56,347

personal skill and glory.

938

00:41:57,681 --> 00:42:02,019

That's like the inverse of what Christ showed us.

939

00:42:02,228 --> 00:42:03,812

That really lands.

940

00:42:05,481 --> 00:42:09,860

It does seem, it's almost like this human nature

941

00:42:09,860 --> 00:42:11,695

to want to lift up certain people as

942

00:42:11,695 --> 00:42:13,113

like, "Ah, they've got the answer."

943

00:42:14,990 --> 00:42:15,699

They've fixed it.

944

00:42:16,242 --> 00:42:17,368

They have an incredible skill.

945

00:42:17,618 --> 00:42:19,495

So therefore, we should follow.

946

00:42:19,495 --> 00:42:19,995

I don't know.

947

00:42:20,496 --> 00:42:22,414

I'm still wrangling with what that means because

948

00:42:22,414 --> 00:42:23,415

it's such a human thing.

949

00:42:23,707 --> 00:42:23,916

Yeah.

950

00:42:24,541 --> 00:42:28,003

Well, at least maybe just exploring the contrast

951

00:42:28,003 --> 00:42:31,674

here a bit like we are, it can mean that the

952

00:42:31,715 --> 00:42:35,636

heroes, Christian heroes, they may not always be

953

00:42:35,636 --> 00:42:37,888

able to demonstrate their capacity for

954

00:42:38,138 --> 00:42:41,225

control, but they will be able to show presence.

955

00:42:42,768 --> 00:42:45,646

And more than likely, they'll be able to show

956

00:42:45,646 --> 00:42:47,273

that capacity, the old,

957

00:42:47,606 --> 00:42:49,608

strong word of mortification,

958

00:42:50,567 --> 00:42:55,072

of relinquishing, of saying, "This may not be

959

00:42:55,072 --> 00:42:58,158

everything I hoped for, like Jesus in the garden.

960

00:42:58,909 --> 00:43:01,495

"Father take this cup from me, but

961

00:43:01,495 --> 00:43:04,415

nevertheless, not my will but thine be done."

962

00:43:04,415 --> 00:43:06,000

And then he enters freely in.

963

00:43:07,084 --> 00:43:09,586

And the courage is just

964

00:43:09,586 --> 00:43:12,339

astonishing, the battle there.

965

00:43:13,465 --> 00:43:15,801

But he's still willing to show up.

966

00:43:16,135 --> 00:43:18,429

He's still willing to be present in that kind of

967

00:43:18,429 --> 00:43:22,808

obedient but also voluntary way.

968

00:43:23,809 --> 00:43:24,059

Whoa.

969

00:43:24,601 --> 00:43:24,810

Yeah.

970

00:43:25,019 --> 00:43:26,562

So I wonder, what sorts

971

00:43:26,562 --> 00:43:28,814

of heroes do we need that

972

00:43:28,856 --> 00:43:30,399

just demonstrate those capacity.

973

00:43:31,692 --> 00:43:35,362

It's like I've sometimes wondered with students

974

00:43:35,362 --> 00:43:40,159

here, maybe our heroes as Christians, maybe

975

00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:41,577

they need to be the people who've had their

976

00:43:41,577 --> 00:43:45,372

deepest fears relieved through trust in God.

977

00:43:46,874 --> 00:43:47,583

That's going to look different.

978

00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:48,250

Yeah.

979

00:43:49,335 --> 00:43:50,461

Yeah, I like that though.

980

00:43:50,586 --> 00:43:53,797

That's like really going down deep into those

981

00:43:53,797 --> 00:43:57,426

things and seeing that Christ is there in it.

982

00:43:58,344 --> 00:43:59,970

That's the transformation that happens.

983

00:43:59,970 --> 00:44:03,849

That's the rootedness or the rest that can come

984

00:44:03,849 --> 00:44:09,313

from that where we can be stable through

985

00:44:09,313 --> 00:44:11,023

those times because we know

986

00:44:11,023 --> 00:44:14,276

it's... can we fix the chaos?

987

00:44:14,276 --> 00:44:17,654

No, but we're relying on Christ who can.

988

00:44:18,906 --> 00:44:19,740

There's a lot more to that.

989

00:44:20,199 --> 00:44:21,867

I feel like I need to dig into a bit.

990

00:44:23,285 --> 00:44:23,744

That's so good.

991

00:44:24,328 --> 00:44:27,790

We can sometimes have the picture with Western

992

00:44:27,790 --> 00:44:30,459

Christianitiy, especially of the kind of

993

00:44:30,459 --> 00:44:33,170

triumphalist Christianity that has trouble

994

00:44:33,170 --> 00:44:35,547

dealing with things that we can't change,

995

00:44:35,547 --> 00:44:37,758

that are intractably part of our experience, that

996

00:44:37,758 --> 00:44:39,176

are painful, that are difficult, that

997

00:44:39,176 --> 00:44:41,053

are whatever, or just challenging.

998

00:44:42,137 --> 00:44:43,347

And then we have trouble there.

999

00:44:43,555 --> 00:44:48,936

But again, for... in Jesus, in Jesus and his

00:44:48,936 --> 00:44:53,982

descent into death, he united himself

00:44:54,817 --> 00:44:56,318

to that one thing we all

00:44:56,318 --> 00:44:59,029

have in common, which is our eventual death.

00:44:59,738 --> 00:45:01,240

It's the ultimate chaos.

00:45:01,532 --> 00:45:03,409

It's the ultimate uncontrolled event.

00:45:04,785 --> 00:45:07,162

And in entering into that, you

00:45:07,162 --> 00:45:09,540

could ask if this really goes bad.

00:45:10,457 --> 00:45:11,583

In the furthest extreme,

00:45:12,167 --> 00:45:13,293

who will be there for me?

00:45:13,919 --> 00:45:15,629

And that's Jesus giving his,

00:45:15,921 --> 00:45:18,674

"Yes, I will be there even unto death.

00:45:19,591 --> 00:45:21,135

I'll go that far for you."

00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:23,804

And on the cross, when he says, "My God, my God,

00:45:23,804 --> 00:45:25,013

why have you forsaken me?"

00:45:25,347 --> 00:45:27,850

How far will you go, God, to be present with me?

00:45:27,850 --> 00:45:31,687

Even that far, to God forsakenness on our behalf.

00:45:33,856 --> 00:45:36,733

It just becomes a powerful way of seeing that in

00:45:36,733 --> 00:45:40,904

Christ's voluntarily giving himself over

00:45:40,904 --> 00:45:42,781

to death, he even changed the

00:45:42,781 --> 00:45:44,366

nature and use of death itself.

00:45:44,658 --> 00:45:46,743

We no longer need to be terrified of it.

00:45:47,536 --> 00:45:50,205

We could say, "Oh, this isn't quite what I want.

00:45:50,205 --> 00:45:52,916

But I could give myself over and I could still act in

00:45:52,916 --> 00:45:54,001

the best way I know how.

00:45:56,420 --> 00:45:59,756

So for those watching or listening to this, I'm

00:45:59,756 --> 00:46:02,885

sure many are facing the uncontrollable,

00:46:02,885 --> 00:46:04,720

they're maybe dealing with chaos in life, things

00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:07,139

that the unexpected, the unpredictable.

00:46:09,057 --> 00:46:11,226

So what can they do with this?

00:46:11,518 --> 00:46:13,020

What is a proper response?

00:46:15,314 --> 00:46:16,398

Where should they turn?

00:46:17,107 --> 00:46:19,818

Yeah, give us something that people can take away

00:46:19,818 --> 00:46:21,361

from this for their own lives.

00:46:22,821 --> 00:46:24,114

In talking with...

00:46:26,074 --> 00:46:29,536

It was a mother of young children for whom chaos

00:46:29,536 --> 00:46:30,954

takes the face of her children.

00:46:32,664 --> 00:46:35,542

And one thing I don't want to be heard here is

00:46:35,542 --> 00:46:38,629

that you can't do anything,

00:46:39,379 --> 00:46:43,133

that there's no appropriate steps to take toward

00:46:43,133 --> 00:46:45,594

making things a little

00:46:45,594 --> 00:46:47,679

bit more controllable, even.

00:46:48,597 --> 00:46:50,474

I'm not trying to suggest that.

00:46:50,933 --> 00:46:53,852

I'm not trying to suggest that we just relinquish

00:46:53,852 --> 00:46:55,562

control or that we just take

00:46:55,562 --> 00:46:56,980

our hands off the wheel entirely.

00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:02,236

What I am trying to say is that to...

00:47:04,279 --> 00:47:05,906

I'll start theologically.

00:47:06,782 --> 00:47:10,077

To participate, to live in the Spirit of Christ

00:47:10,077 --> 00:47:12,871

is to not make those- that need

00:47:12,871 --> 00:47:14,706

for control the ultimate thing.

00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:15,874

It's a tyrant.

00:47:17,626 --> 00:47:20,879

And to live as if we can control things and

00:47:20,879 --> 00:47:21,838

predict things and make

00:47:21,838 --> 00:47:23,549

everything smooth and frictionless

00:47:24,007 --> 00:47:26,134

very quickly becomes idolatrous.

00:47:27,135 --> 00:47:30,597

So the first thing I'd suggest for people is to

00:47:30,597 --> 00:47:35,102

have a look, to look critically at our lives

00:47:35,936 --> 00:47:37,521

and to especially look at the things which

00:47:37,521 --> 00:47:39,064

suggest that, yes, life is

00:47:39,064 --> 00:47:40,315

actually very controllable.

00:47:41,441 --> 00:47:43,026

That's our pervasive world.

00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,280

Everything about our life is about optimization,

00:47:46,613 --> 00:47:48,282

about controllability, predictability.

00:47:48,740 --> 00:47:51,159

It's not just on the manufacturing line.

00:47:52,077 --> 00:47:53,662

It's in our social lives.

00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:54,746

It's in medicine.

00:47:55,122 --> 00:47:57,249

It's in things which have ultimate significance

00:47:57,249 --> 00:47:59,167

and it's suggested to us,

00:47:59,167 --> 00:48:00,460

"You could optimize this."

00:48:01,378 --> 00:48:02,504

So examine that.

00:48:04,006 --> 00:48:04,965

Another thing I'd suggest

00:48:04,965 --> 00:48:07,259

here is don't run from adversity.

00:48:08,969 --> 00:48:12,180

It's like Paul was so delighted in some of his

00:48:12,180 --> 00:48:13,765

young churches that he was a

00:48:13,765 --> 00:48:15,642

shepherd over when they faced adversity.

00:48:16,602 --> 00:48:18,186

It wasn't so much that they faced it.

00:48:18,186 --> 00:48:19,396

He wasn't a masochist,

00:48:19,396 --> 00:48:19,980

who just like, "Oh,

00:48:19,980 --> 00:48:21,106

they're suffering. That's good."

00:48:21,940 --> 00:48:25,819

It was that they were actually investing in it

00:48:25,819 --> 00:48:28,322

and there was the new creation

00:48:28,322 --> 00:48:30,490

breaking out on the other side of it.

00:48:30,490 --> 00:48:32,159

They were changing into the

00:48:32,159 --> 00:48:33,744

glory of Christ, into his image.

00:48:34,661 --> 00:48:36,663

So don't run from adversity.

00:48:38,165 --> 00:48:38,624

A lot.

00:48:38,624 --> 00:48:41,627

Again, our culture tells that discomfort is bad.

00:48:42,711 --> 00:48:43,670

And if you encounter

00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:45,922

discomfort, you need to soothe it.

00:48:46,173 --> 00:48:47,215

You need to do away with it.

00:48:47,633 --> 00:48:48,800

Talk through it, whatever it

00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,261

takes, but it's probably a bad thing.

00:48:51,261 --> 00:48:53,472

So I'd suggest if you find yourself in an adverse

00:48:53,472 --> 00:48:58,060

situation, don't close in on it too quickly and

00:48:58,060 --> 00:48:59,519

say, "This is bad and I

00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:00,729

need to get away from it."

00:49:01,938 --> 00:49:02,648

Try to sit.

00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:04,733

Try to be quiet.

00:49:05,442 --> 00:49:09,529

Allow the Spirit to work and ask, "What

00:49:09,529 --> 00:49:11,948

possibilities are there here

00:49:11,948 --> 00:49:13,825

for Christ to be revealed?"

00:49:15,285 --> 00:49:18,080

I'd suggest too, and this is practical, I think,

00:49:18,246 --> 00:49:24,711

so much of our ability as either individuals or

00:49:24,711 --> 00:49:27,339

as communities to weather the difficult times

00:49:27,339 --> 00:49:30,092

which do come, to weather the deep,

00:49:31,134 --> 00:49:34,179

comes not just through our heroicness as

00:49:34,179 --> 00:49:37,265

individuals, not just through our willpower and

00:49:37,265 --> 00:49:38,934

our ability to bootstrap things.

00:49:40,227 --> 00:49:45,982

It comes through a wide tapestry of friendships

00:49:45,982 --> 00:49:48,068

that we've invested in deeply already.

00:49:48,402 --> 00:49:50,946

It comes through shared experiences with people

00:49:50,946 --> 00:49:53,198

who we've already got a connection with.

00:49:53,740 --> 00:49:57,035

It comes through cultivating the kind of life

00:49:57,035 --> 00:50:01,081

that is rich and has a lot of stories in it,

00:50:01,623 --> 00:50:03,792

which help us to stay oriented and focused.

00:50:04,835 --> 00:50:07,254

And I think it comes too through having already

00:50:07,254 --> 00:50:08,463

introduced into our lives

00:50:08,463 --> 00:50:11,383

willingly and voluntarily, adversity

00:50:12,384 --> 00:50:14,469

to cultivate the resourcefulness

00:50:14,469 --> 00:50:16,847

that we need to kind of steer in.

00:50:17,097 --> 00:50:18,974

And then when the really big things do happen, it

00:50:18,974 --> 00:50:20,183

gives you more resources.

00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,104

Almost like building a level of resiliency.

00:50:24,521 --> 00:50:25,188

That's a good word.

00:50:26,314 --> 00:50:28,275

Resilience is part of what

00:50:28,275 --> 00:50:29,735

you're, I think, developing.

00:50:30,068 --> 00:50:32,654

You live that kind of widely interested and

00:50:32,654 --> 00:50:33,989

varied and storied life.

00:50:35,574 --> 00:50:40,203

Yeah, this is really good to think about these

00:50:40,203 --> 00:50:44,583

things because it's so easy to say, "Oh, well, chaos.

00:50:44,583 --> 00:50:46,251

Ah, that's scary. We're just going to

00:50:46,251 --> 00:50:47,085

ignore that or we're going

00:50:47,085 --> 00:50:49,129

to try to fix everything."

00:50:49,129 --> 00:50:52,841

And that can go badly in time.

00:50:53,216 --> 00:50:56,219

And I think it's very important to have these

00:50:56,219 --> 00:50:58,513

kinds of conversations in life.

00:50:58,513 --> 00:51:00,307

And I think that'd be something I would encourage

00:51:00,307 --> 00:51:02,392

listeners to do is to actually

00:51:03,185 --> 00:51:05,145

not just ignore these things.

00:51:05,145 --> 00:51:06,396

It's so easy just to say, "Oh, I

00:51:06,396 --> 00:51:07,814

don't even want to think about that."

00:51:09,024 --> 00:51:12,235

And to circle it back around to remember that

00:51:12,235 --> 00:51:13,653

Jesus is the one who walked

00:51:13,653 --> 00:51:15,071

on the surface of the sea.

00:51:15,071 --> 00:51:15,530

That's right.

00:51:15,697 --> 00:51:16,656

The formless and void.

00:51:16,656 --> 00:51:18,033

That's a beautiful picture.

00:51:18,575 --> 00:51:21,369

And sometimes he did calm the sea. He did

00:51:21,369 --> 00:51:23,705

have control over those things.

00:51:23,997 --> 00:51:25,665

And that's something I

00:51:25,665 --> 00:51:26,541

think about a lot actually.

00:51:26,792 --> 00:51:27,876

When things feel like they're

00:51:27,876 --> 00:51:29,252

just spinning out of control.

00:51:29,252 --> 00:51:31,588

It's like, "Well, come back to that."

00:51:31,963 --> 00:51:32,923

So anyway, that's something

00:51:32,923 --> 00:51:34,090

I would like to leave there.

00:51:34,341 --> 00:51:34,925

But yeah.

00:51:35,383 --> 00:51:36,593

Well, thanks for sharing, Kyle.

00:51:36,635 --> 00:51:38,053

Yeah, good to be with you.

00:51:40,055 --> 00:51:41,640

Thanks for listening to this episode.

00:51:41,973 --> 00:51:43,391

If you found this interesting, you should check

00:51:43,391 --> 00:51:45,477

out this other episode we did with Kyle.

00:51:46,269 --> 00:51:48,563

As always, you can find all of our content on our

00:51:48,563 --> 00:51:51,274

website at anabaptistperspectives.org.

00:51:51,775 --> 00:51:52,859

Thanks again for listening, and

00:51:52,859 --> 00:51:54,277

we'll catch you in the next episode.