Unesco sites - TOM

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[00:00:00]

Tom: In this episode, we are talking about UNESCO sites, specifically the three main historic UNESCO sites of Georgia. There'll be more information about other types of UNESCO related shenanigans in other episodes, but we're just gonna talk about those three primary sites that you can go and visit when you're here.

Meagen: This is the Tbilisi podcast covering life travel and more in the country of Georgia brought to you by foodfuntravel. com, and eatthistours. com. Hello, hello! Welcome to another episode of the Tbilisi Podcast, a show about life and travel in Tbilisi and Georgia. I'm your host, Meg, and of course, I'm here with

Tom: It's Tommo from EatThisTours. com. Hello! [00:01:00] And wine, you forgot to mention that wine is something we talk about a

Meagen: wine is in my glass beside me, keeping me company through every step of my podcasting

Tom: yum.

Meagen: Mm mm.

Tom: So.

Meagen: Sorry. Yes, so today we're talking UNESCO sites. There are a lot of historical sites here in Georgia, but strangely enough only three of them have UNESCO heritage listing. There's

Tom: list that have not been approved, which is very upsetting, because some of them I think are very worthy of this. I'll do some shoutouts, shall I do some shoutouts?

Uh, Vardzia, Which is a Bronze Age cave town, is on the tentative list. Alaverdi Monastery, which is the oldest continuous production of wine since 1011 AD. They've made vintages there in Alaverdi Monastery since 1011 AD. That's insane, over a thousand years making wine at the same place. , and, yeah, Uplitzike, another cave town that's on the

Meagen: David Gareji monastery.

Tom: So yeah,

Some greatest hits of the non. Yeah, non UNESCOs, but [00:02:00] there are three specific sites that are actually on the UNESCO list and fully approved by UNESCO at this point. Do they get the say in everything? They just get to go like, yes, yes, yes, I approve this one. I don't approve Aleverdi Monastery, it's not quite up to what I want it to be.

There's

Meagen: some technical things that go along with it. So, if we're going to jump into this straight at the very beginning of the podcast episode. I shouldn't be panning

Tom: out UNESCO, they

Meagen: No, no, no. Basically, they're pretty specific about how they want a Refurbishments and things to go about. So naturally you want to make sure that the site doesn't fall into any sort of disrepair or anything like that. So you need to do some fixes to it, but sometimes UNESCO don't like Some of the

Tom: were a little bit too aggressive and

Meagen: bit too aggressive

bagrati? But

Tom: this is on the UNESCO

Meagen: list. Bagrati Cathedral,

Tom: Bagrati Cathedral Kutaisi lost its UNESCO status. Yeah. [00:03:00] Wow.

Meagen: they took it away because they did some improvements to it and they were not happy With what they did and so they took it away.

Tom: Ah, well we're going to learn more about that later on, I guess. Okay, well yeah, and Aliverdi Monastery was hit by a tornado in June.

How insane is that? I

Meagen: saw the video of it, absolutely bonkers. Out of

Tom: of nowhere, as tornadoes often are, and bam, ripped it off and now it's just covered in scaffolding, but hopefully that'll all be sorted in time for the next tourist season next year.

Okay.

Meagen: First stop on our UNESCO journey is actually just about 30 minutes drive, if that, from Tbilisi.

So, it's really nice and close, you can go out there by a taxi, or you can go out there on a tour.

Tom: Get a taxi, make sure you keep that taxi and don't just walk away from the taxi and then it drives off because you might not get one to pick you

up

Meagen: again. That's true.

Tom: You normally maybe can get one to pick you up again, but it's a little bit on the edge of the taxi zone.

So

yeah, tell them to wait [00:04:00] for you.

Meagen: We are, of course, first of all, talking about the Jvari Monastery. This is a really important cultural site for Georgians. It is basically the place where Christianity was born. I don't know, listening to this, if you know that Georgia is the second country in the world to adopt Christianity as its national religion.

Armenia was the first and Georgia was the second and this was back in the fourth century

Tom: around 326 AD but we're not entirely certain. There are different records and reports but around that.

Meagen: So that's when Georgia converted to Christianity and basically in the 6th century the Jvari Monastery was built.

Tom: There was another site there and there was probably a wooden structure there

before the 6th century monastery was built, but the 6th century monastery is the one that is primarily there now.

And actually, the roof, surprisingly, has managed to survive. This was an original

Meagen: roof. [00:05:00] It's considered one of the finest examples of Georgian medieval architecture.

Yeah. Just in general. So yeah, much of the original structure of the monastery is still intact. It's like 1400 years old or something like

that.

Tom: Has made it through earthquakes and things. I mean, this is quite fantastic that it survived.

Like, through,

Meagen: Different countries coming in and taking over and, , just destroying basically everything in their way.

To the the Soviet, uh, Union. having control over everything and saying, nope, religion is out. So many different places got completely whitewashed, got destroyed. Javari,

Tom: it still got whitewashed

Meagen: it did, it did a

Tom: the, uh, the roof was retained.

Meagen: it wasn't like destroyed in any way. It did fall into disrepair during that time. Cause it wasn't used. as a religious site or anything like that.

So it's been there for a really long time. And actually the way that it's designed with the central dome and everything, it [00:06:00] actually became a model for future, not just Georgian churches, but like other churches. They were like, dang, they did a really good job designing that.

We're going to do a similar thing.

Tom: Yeah.

Well it worked.

It's

Meagen: there.

One of the incredible things about Jvari is where it's located. It's basically perched up on this hilltop, overlooking the river below. So right below is the two rivers, which I can never pronounce. You can do

Well, mtkvari.

I'm sure that's still wrong because they said you can't actually be a Georgian until you can pronounce properly and I'm still not really a Georgian am I?

So I'm sure I'm doing that wrong.

then the

other

Tom: is the Aragvi. The Aragvi is coming from the north from, Kazbegi area. And, mtkvari is coming from Borjomi

Meagen: so you're overlooking the confluence of the two, where they join together.

Tom: And you've got one that's like brown and full of whatever silt picking up on the way.

And the other one that's like this crazy crystal turquoise. Which is the Aragvi coming from the mountains. It's, yeah, it's a, it's an [00:07:00] interesting little spot. I would say for the Aragvi, I feel a bit sad for the Aragvi that it has this beautiful crystal water and then

Meagen: the

mtkvari

Tom: comes in and goes, I'm gonna make you brown. And then mtkvari gets all of the credit because that's the one that runs through Tbilisi. So Aragvi ends there and is like, we've joined is

a

Meagen: is a beautiful spot. Incredible views overlooking, Mtskheta, which is the old capital of Georgia. Looking over that, entire city, and of course the rivers. One of our favorite times to go up there, because what you will find is if you do do a tour or something like that, they tend to take you up there first thing in the

Tom: do do a tour or something like that, they tend to take you up there first thing in the No, anything between, sort of, nine. If people are doing the Kazbegi tour, which is like up and back in one day, which is insane by don't do that as a one day tour, [00:08:00] do a two day tour to Kazbegi, you can stay overnight.

Because otherwise you've got three hours plus each way, just travel. So yeah, they leave quite early if they're doing the Kazbegi tour, maybe like eight thirty, which by most people's standards is like early, eight thirty is early, but like Georgia standards that's super early. So yeah, for anything from around 9,

up until around 12 is

Meagen: it's just bus, bus,

Tom: bus, bus, bus, bus, bus, So, yeah, you were saying, the best time to

Meagen: go

Sunset!

Absolutely we've got some incredible photos of being up there at sunset, and it's much more quiet, all the tour buses have already left, you still will have some people milling around, but you can really just sort of sit and just enjoy watching the sun go down, ,

Tom: And it's a, yeah, western valley, like there's a north valley where the Aragvi comes down and the west valley where the mtkvari comes. And so down that western valley the sun sets down through the valley. And all the light shines on the monastery and on Mtskheta a little bit as it goes into shade behind the mountains.

And it's, yeah, stunning.[00:09:00]

Meagen: Yep. Absolutely.

Tom: And normally quite quiet that time of day.

Meagen: day

Yep. So that's the time to go. One of the things to remember that if you are going there, it is a religious site.

So ladies, you do need to wear a headscarf, also shorts and short skirts and not really great at all

Tom: they've become a little lax there on stopping people because they're so used to tourists, but it is disrespectful not to cover

Meagen: your knees Yeah

Yeah Yeah You So they do have different scarves and stuff at the front door that you can put on, but everybody's putting them on every day.

And I don't know if they ever wash them. I don't know. I don't know. And it, scares

me

Tom: And men also should cover their knees as well, by the way. Yeah. Men, shoulders and knees be covered, but you don't have to cover your head, but women have to cover your head

Meagen: your head Yeah. It's just a respectful thing.

So pack a scarf and wear, Tights that day wear leggings or something and you know, just be prepared

because if you're going to visit some You know, historical religious sites. You've got to be respectful of the religious customs.

Tom: Yeah.

Meagen: [00:10:00] All right. So, Jvari, and of course, if you're going to be visiting Jvari, you're probably going to be going into Mtskheta to also visit the cathedral.

I'm going to not say it right. you say,

Tom: me spelling. This is very, very, very hard say. do my

best

Meagen: Svetskov, Koveli?

Tom: Yeah. Svetskhoveli Svet, Svetskhoveli.

Meagen: Oh

Tom: I think I'm

pretty

Meagen: pretty

close.

I'm sure if any Georgians they're

Tom: will be like

absolute horror. But yeah, that's a very, very hard word to pronounce with lots of, yeah, the K H at the end Yeah. And the, yeah, everything, everything's fun about

Meagen: that word isn't it

that

my goodness This

is

Tom: is the other part of the UNESCO site. It's sort of a combined UNESCO

Meagen: site.

Yeah, but they are two

Tom: separate sites. They can, you can see one from the other, both from other. But,

But it's they call it complex

Meagen: This is actually known as the [00:11:00] spiritual capital of Georgia. And as I mentioned before, Mtskheta is the former capital of Georgia before Tbilisi or even Kutaisi was,

Tom: Kutaisi is one of the oldest living cities in the world, with history going back to 3000 BC, as I understand. Continuously lived in

Meagen: BC. Yeah serious It's

Tom: serious. I mean, it's up there with what, Varanasi is sort of 3000 something or a bit, no actually I think Varanasi is like

Meagen: 8000 something. Varanasi is

Tom: something crazy, Kutaisi is up there in the list of the oldest living cities, continuously lived

Meagen: cities.

Yeah. So there's been a few capitals, but Mtskheta was a pretty,

Tom: That

was a serious capital because Tbilisi got taken, by varying, warring parties that were coming in and out of Georgia. Of course, things changed hands a lot. And Mtskheta was the capital before Tbilisi, and then it was the capital again after Tbilisi.

And then when they finally tried to retake Tbilisi, you know, it was the capital on the way through. It was, uh, yeah, it's, it's seen a lot of battles.

Meagen: Yeah

This particular cathedral was built in the 11th century [00:12:00] and it's really important because it's the burial site of many prestigious Georgian Kings, centuries of Georgian Kings are buried there.

One of the really interesting things and stories that go along with the cathedral is that apparently Christ's robe is believed to be buried in the Under the cathedral. So the story goes as such. A Georgian Jew, and that sounds terrible. Why is it so terrible to

Tom: it

So terrible.

Meagen: write

Tom: This

Meagen: this? is the

Tom: like I

Meagen: but I feel like I should say a, a, a Georgian who happened?

Of Jewish

faith Yes A A Georgian Jewish A Georgian Jewish

Tom: Or Jewish

Meagen: person A Georgian Of the

Tom: A

Meagen: Why

Tom: That's almost more offensive than a Georgian Jew. A Georgian Jewish. Don't write in and complain, we're trying to

Meagen: as we

Tom: this

point.

Meagen: don't cancel me.

So anyway, this dude brought, no, that's even worse.[00:13:00]

Just

Tom: Just this Jewish dude.

Meagen: No, so, he brought back the robe from Jerusalem after Christ's crucifixion. And his sister, upon touching it, was so overcome that she just died. The robe could not be removed from her grasp. So she died and she, , was clenching this robe and couldn't,

Thanks, I mean, what? Well, she was overcome with, sadness and everything at the death of her savior, pretty much. , so she was buried with the robe and the cathedral was built over And so that's why it's a really important religious

Tom: Wow. They just couldn't get out

of her hands. They're like, well, it. We're just gonna have to build a cathedral on top it because we can't get the robe back. She's died holding

Meagen: But it is actually a really beautiful cathedral.

Tom: Wow. yeah. No, I mean amazing.

Meagen: beautiful. And this is one of the places, cause I know when you travel a lot, especially in Europe, like a church can be a church is a church is a church. I do recommend here [00:14:00] hiring one of the guides.

You can either. Do get your guide who will take you from Tbilisi, who will drive you out there and be your guide for the day, or there are guides that stand outside and will offer their services to you if you find an English speaking one, it is worthwhile just finding out the history of the cathedral, because there's just a lot

Tom: of

Meagen: things

Tom: of

Meagen: things

you could, you can walk in and walk around and go, that's nice and leave, but there are a lot of things you can actually learn about it.

And it is a really fascinating place.

Tom: Yeah, and photography wise, I like it a lot as well. Yeah, it's quite a picturesque because what you have, and this is essentially one UNESCO site, but two UNESCO sites, is if you go to the Northwest corner of the garden around the outside of the cathedral, you then see Javari, on the hilltop in the distance behind it.

So you get both in one shot. And if you go there sort of around sunset, you've got the sun behind you. So you've got the light of the sun Golden light of the sun shining on the cathedral and on Javari and the sun's right behind you giving that light So it's yeah for photography [00:15:00] wise. I think it's really as

Meagen: lovely, lovely spot.

Once again, remember, ladies, need to wear a headscarf and something around your waist if you have, shorts on. or anything like that on, men also will need to wear something.

Tom: deal just this is this

Meagen: They have They

have

it

Tom: you have this you need

Meagen: One of the also really nice things about Mtskheta in general and just like surrounding, the cathedral is that they have a lot of cobblestone streets surrounding it that have little markets.

And so you can just walk along there. It's like a bit of a little bit of a maze, but you can find souvenirs. that you might want to take home with you. You can find Saperavi ice cream if it's summer. Just for something a little bit different. is red wine here. If, so for, if you're just listening for the first episode, Saperavi is a red

Tom: Get used that word because we use that all

Meagen: time.

Yep so you can get that in ice cream form, which is, I've been told, uh,

worth trying.

Tom: I mean we've had it. [00:16:00] It's fine, isn't it? I don't know. It's ice cream. It's a bit purply.

Meagen: Yeah. You can also get your handicrafts there, people who have

Tom: Yeah

they're even selling rugs, and although it's bit touristy market, the rug quality there is not terrible. There are better places to get stuff in Tbilisi, but yeah, it's not actually Complete scammy

Meagen: anything.

Tom: anything There are some good ones

And the tourist market there also, it's not that

Meagen: pushy. It's quite

Tom: you're walking through.

Meagen: leave you be

Tom: I like the bottles, the wine bottles that are like, made from, Not, it's not porcelain, but you know, like clay stone

Meagen: formed wine

bottles.

Yeah. They're clay

Tom: that

Designed bottles they have different like features and designs Tbilisi and Yeah, of, of a Georgian guy in his chukka, like the buildings of Tbilisi in there, you can serve them as wine jugs or wine bottles. They're really cool. They seem a bit touristy, but it's just, it's a thing. I wouldn't say it's that touristy.

Meagen: Oh super cute. home

Tom: well. I mean, they're

great

Meagen: think they're kitsch at all. I think, well, actually I

Tom: they are a little bit kitsch, but they're like good kitsch. They're

Meagen: best kitsch.

So maybe I'm not the right person to[00:17:00]

Tom: Yeah, but I don't really love kitsch and like them a lot. I think they're great.

Meagen: so as we said, Mtskheta is actually super easy to get to. You can either get a, you know, a taxi, a bolt out

Tom: out

Meagen: Make sure you can get back though. I think Mtskheta is

Tom: to. Mtskheta, easier than Javari for a pickup. Yeah, Javari, because it's off on a road up a hill, they might not want to pick up there. But Mtskheta, pretty much 99 percent chance you're going to get a

Meagen: can get a

Tom: Get dropped off, get picked up later,

Meagen: can

easy. You can hire or get your guide for the day. Whether you get someone who speaks English, or it's just a cheap ride, or whatever,

Tom: Like a GoTrip

you

Meagen: Get your

different

Sorry. You can get a go trip

sure

Tom: there are

Meagen: get your guide

Tom: Mtskheta that might have 27 people on a bus and it maybe is not what

Meagen: you want, or

Tom: maybe are some maybe are some

Meagen: go trip. is really good. They have go trip here, and basically it's people with cars that will drive you around. Some of them are guides and can speak English, and some they just You can get A private transfer for an affordable

Tom: You've got a note on that website though that it does tell you if they speak Russian or English [00:18:00] But if it says they speak English that doesn't mean they speak fluent amazing English, and it definitely doesn't mean they're a means they're a driver who's Georgian who will tell you some

Meagen: stuff. Which

they like

Tom: be incorrect.

It could be completely factually incorrect They're not trained educated guides. They're just Georgian guys some stuff. And they're normally very so why not? It's an affordable way to do some things if you need to do it on

Meagen: the cheap.

You can always get a Matshuka as well from the Dudubei bus station. If you want. It's only a few lari. It

Tom: awesome Yeah, yeah. Is there not public, , the regular buses from Tbilisi? Tbilisi Mall and stuff go all the way to Mtskheta or maybe? don't never tried to do it, but.

Meagen: to do it

but yeah. But this area, it's beautiful all year round. There's not a particular time to visit. You can go anytime.

Tom: It's gorgeous. Spring.

Meagen: Yeah.

Tom: because all of the mountains around are fully green.

Meagen: And there's wildflowers everywhere. Yeah. It can

Tom: can be a bit dry looking and sort of But yeah, in April, May, it's going to be beautiful. Yeah, but any time of year there is cool.

There really

is.

[00:19:00] Okay.

Meagen: That is the first UNESCO site. It's two for the price of

one.

Tom: Everything's two for the price of one here, apart from, as you said, they've cut Bagrati

Meagen: out.

I know. We're going to get to that now. So, yeah. Now we're

Tom: heading

see

Meagen: the Kutaisi Imereti area.

Tom: Western

Georgia Central West Heading

west

Meagen: west. Georgia's second largest city is Kutaisi, and we just spoke a

Tom: Not anymore! What it?

Meagen: Rustavi

Tom: now bigger than Batumi, and Batumi is bigger than Kutaisi. We need to fact check this is

change

Meagen: a

Tom: This is a recent change. Kutaisi is fourth now, as I

Meagen: understand.

No way! And

Batumi

Tom: is pretty big. I mean, a lot of people, and let's say, why, why did they move into Batumi? All of those people move in, where did they come

from Which country they move in from? Yeah. So I think you can put two and two together.

If you're counting those residents as long term residents now, that's also a factor, but also the economy in Batumi grew a lot. because of a lot of [00:20:00] new foreign residents moving into Batumi from a certain And there

Meagen: a

Tom: go

And a lot of people started leaving Kutaisi because the job market's not as good there, whereas Rustavi is a lot of industry manufacturing and the Rustavi tipped the balance.

As I understand, yeah, Batumi and Rustavi are two and three or three and two, whichever is. And Kutaisi's fourth and it used to be second, I

Meagen: Anyway, it's a lovely city. Go visit it. We do have tours there as well. It's really gorgeous.

Tom: Yeah Imereti

around Kutaisi, the wine region there, is whole other wine region.

People are like, oh, the wine region's Kakheti,

Meagen: right? I want, yeah, I want to

Tom: I'm in

Meagen: Yes,

Tom: Yes, you're already here. You're here.

Meagen: The wine

Tom: Yeah, unless you go to the northern mountains and Kazbegi and Svaneti, you're literally in the wine region the entire time you're in Georgia. Every

all of

Meagen: some fantastic wines, definitely worth exploring. Don't just lock yourself in for Kakheti because you've heard of it, Kakheti's great, don't get me wrong, but there's a lot [00:21:00] more wine to be explored than

wine

Tom: I think Imeretian wines are actually better for foreigners for a first time taste of Georgian wine because they're a lot closer, they're a lot lighter, they only use like 30 percent skin contact rather than 100 percent skin contact, so you get light white wines rather than heavy amber wines. So very light sort of straw and gold colors sometimes as well, but.

Yeah,

it's, I think it's easier to get into this. So yeah, do the Western Georgian wines. If that's your introduction to Georgian wine, I think you're going to love it.

Meagen: it. So go do a Georgian wine tour and then also We will take you to the Galati Monastery.

the next

Tom: next UNESCO

Meagen: site. It is. So the Galati Monastery was founded in 1106 by King David the Builder.

We did an episode on him a while back as well. He basically was the, King that reformed Georgia,

Tom: reunited all

of the

into one

Meagen: into the golden age of Georgian history.

Tom: was the largest Georgian land area ever in [00:22:00] history was during his reign. He

united

Meagen: the reason why Galati is really popular and important is it wasn't just a monastery.

It was a cultural and intellectual place. It was a place for people to go and discuss and talk. Is philosophize a word? I'm making it a is

Tom: I think it is actually a word.

And, yes, sure.

Why

Meagen: Why

One, it's an example of some of the best of Georgia's golden age architecture, where they

Tom: were just

Meagen: Doing their best thing.

Tom: Well, importantly, the Soviets managed to not whitewash all of frescoes.

Meagen: Yes Well, this is why, because it was considered a really important historical place culturally, not religiously so much. While it is a religious site, don't get me wrong, , it sort of got a little bit more respect because of the cultural background to it.

Tom: You can see these floor to ceiling frescoes that are really amazingly

Meagen: impressive.

Yep they date back to the 12th [00:23:00] century, these frescoes. One of the main ones, Mary and the Christ child that like, that's in the main cathedral there. That's the, big one.

So make sure you see that when you go to the Galati, monastery, and then you'll see also some other frescoes and stuff like that, that,

Tom: of the

things

I really

Meagen: One of the things that I really loved about it is the roof. They have refurbished the roof, but they've done it in this.

green mermaid like tile. I don't know. I feel like it's a mermaid, but it's this beautiful green tile on the roof that just really makes it stand out and

shine And

Tom: I think, when people ask me why there are so many churches on itineraries here, what I tell them is that you're not always going for the church.

With this one, you are, because the frescoes are literally some of the example of Georgian frescoes

Meagen: that exist. Well

the Virgin

Mary one that I mentioned before is the largest example of mosaic work from the [00:24:00] medieval period in, Eastern Europe.

Yeah It's

Tom: Yeah, it's genuinely awe inspiring size of art. This has its own personal reason why you'd go because of the artwork, but a lot of churches are on a lot of itineraries and you might go like, oh, I don't want to do seven churches in a week, this is too many churches.

Actually, the reason you go to most of the churches is the view. All of these different churches are in different locations with a view, as we were saying with, , Javari at the start, you've got this incredible confluence of two rivers right there, and you've got the sunset coming down the western valley from there, and from Galati as well.

The inside is highlight of going there, but the secondary reason to go there is there's a wonderful green valley

behind

Meagen: this .

complex

That is true. Here in Georgia, they weren't messing around when they were choosing real estate for their churches.

No

Tom: they went, what are we going to do that's going to be a landmark church? And all of them are landmark churches. So yeah, if your itinerary, whatever itinerary you book is saying, you're going to seven different churches.

It is the same as going somewhere else in [00:25:00] Western Europe, where you've got seven different sightseeing photo stops. This is not just about the religious history and the heritage and

the

the artwork. It is also about just the fact that Georgia is a very scenic country. And The church decided to build all of their churches on places with really nice scenery around them.

Amazing. They had no idea that the tourism potential was coming in the future

Meagen: future.

just

Tom: They just were like, this is a statement for God or whatever. This is a nice place where we can show the almighty that we care about him by putting this in a beautiful location. And then it turns out for tourists, this is, , more than just a religious pilgrimage.

It is very much a sightseeing pilgrimage as well.

Meagen: The Gergeti Cathedral, it's very easy if you're staying in Kutaisi. It's very easy to get a Bolt out there. Or there is also a walking track out there, I believe?

Tom: track out there, I believe? You can walk Motsameta Monastery and Galati. You can probably walk the whole way because there's a road. But yes, there is a walking track between Motsameta and [00:26:00] Galati, but you have to go, downhill and then back uphill, and it's

Meagen: a lot of, I mean, you're, you're down for a walk,

but

Tom: if you're, it's, it's a bit of a hike. It's not just a not a casual

Meagen: walk No no.

Tom: Yeah. a

bit

of but it's not

Meagen: You can get a bolt, you can do our tour, whatever, whatever. Hey,

Tom: don't we

Meagen: yeah, we easy. We're easy.

always go there

Tom: go there because

we're wine.

Meagen: We're wine. And

Tom: And that's not where the wine country is.

It's a bit further

Meagen: the things to also remember is, as I said, with the beautiful green roof, even though it is really beautiful, they've had a few issues with the reconstruction of it lately.

And there is generally just always scaffolding.

Tom: Yeah, as I understand, it's actually closed moment, temporarily closed. I think, I mean, it might not be closed for that long, but yeah, it's, it's been intermittently closed this season, as I understand.

Meagen: So check on that

Tom: As I said, we don't really do tours there, because it's a little bit out of the wine region. We definitely go south of Kutaisi to where all the wine

Meagen: Yeah we did do an episode on Kutaisi and what to do around Kutaisi [00:27:00] with Emily from Wanderlush. Generally, I would say anything to do with Kutaisi and that region, go to Emily's website, Wanderlush. she lives there, so she knows

what's

Tom: we live in Tbilisi.

yeah

Meagen: So if you want

Tom: as much

Meagen: information about what's going on with Galati in that region.

She

Tom: yeah, but when it comes to wine, she, she's not a wine, wine person. We're the wine people. So yeah,

Meagen: about

We're yeah

Tom: for the wine in Kutaisi area. That's us. But yeah, for all of the history and other bits, you probably want to check out Emily's site.

Meagen: Let's have a chat about Bagrati

Tom: so what happened?

Meagen: Okay. So let's talk about Bagrati in general.

Also it's 11th century. Church, cathedral, and

Overlooking Overlooking another great view.

Go there

Tom: said in the winter wine episode, in the winter tourism episode, we were talking about this view from there during the winter. It is clear and you see all the mountains with snow In the summer, it can be a bit hazy.

Meagen: So basically. [00:28:00] Extensive reconstruction that happened to the church in recent years was viewed as detrimental to its integrity and authenticity by UNESCO,

which

Which

Tom: yeah, which led

to

Meagen: be removed from the world heritage

Tom: List. Whoops.

Whoops

Meagen: Even though it still remains a significant landmark, and, it's a, another example of architecture from George's golden age, it's still a really important monument, even though it got removed from UNESCO, but I do think UNESCO can be a little fussy.

I mean, it's their think

that's

Tom: I think that's, yeah, that's literally their purpose in existence is to be fussy about stuff that's actually worth being credited with the UNESCO label. Yeah. Okay. I mean, that really sucks for Georgia that that happened and, , put

someone else, someone's getting fired, aren't they?

From

Meagen: We've got quote, the reconstruction of Bagrati has been a topic of heated debate. While it has made the cathedral functional again and provides visitors with a sense of its [00:29:00] original grandeur, some argue that the modern additions have compromised its historical authenticity. It's an interesting case study and the challenges are preserving ancient sites while making them accessible to modern visitors.

Tom: modern visitors.

An interesting case study, as in, uh, they messed this one Ouch. So an interesting case study and don't this next time, alright? Because you're gonna get removed and we're very mean about this. And

Meagen: So yeah, Bagrati was in it, it's not anymore.

Still go check it out. As we said, great

views,

Tom: views from there.

Just generally

Meagen: basics of, if you fly into Kutaisi, you're already there, so there's the David the Builder airport there, and a lot of people do fly into Kutaisi. Spend some time in that area. It's a really good area to explore, rather than come to Tbilisi and then go all the way back

Tom: Yeah, a lot of people just get straight on the transfer bus from the airport straight to Tbilisi, which is like three hours and something. The [00:30:00] highway's been improved and that's it. And then they go straight back again. But Tbilisi and the Eastern part of Georgia

Meagen: is amazing,

Tom: Georgia is less

Meagen: touristy

Yeah. Go back and listen to the episodes that Tom did with Emily

Tom: Yeah

Meagen: where

Tom: to Ratcha is only

half away over

Meagen: lot of, natural, beautiful, canyons, the Prometheus Caves are there, , there's a lot you can do

in

Tom: Yeah,

loads of stuff going on. A whole mix of sort of less touristy through to more touristy, but definitely not as touristy

If you as Tbilisi.

Meagen: in Tbilisi and do want to go there, Yeah, you can take the airport bus. We always find the airport bus is kind of the easiest and you just ask them to drop you in Kutaisi.

Tom: to drop you on Kutaisi

Meagen: There is also Matshukas. I don't like Matshukas, but

Matshuka you, can take

Tom: It's normally like eight or $9, $10 for a

taxi

Meagen: city. No,

talking about Tbilisi. Don't take taxi from Tbilisi to Kutaisi.

Tom: Oh, you can.

That's like and something lari on bolt [00:31:00] to. Convenient

Meagen: like to take the train.

There is a modern train. It's the Tbilisi to Batumi train and it's nice. It's modern, clean, comfortable. We we take the train every time we go to Kutaisi.

Tom: at that point you're going to go to, it's actually, you get off at Kutaisi airport for the modern train. If you take the Kutaisi train that's direct It's five hours, bouncy, Old,

no

Meagen: old

Tom: No, I mean, an old Soviet maybe? I don't know.

Meagen: I

think it was Chinese

I don't know

Tom: maybe. The new train is fantastic, super modern, air conditioned within, the old one is bouncy. Yeah, and five plus hours and you get dropped off in the middle of town or you do the three ish, just over three hours with

Meagen: modern

Tom: train

Meagen: modern

Tom: and then get a Bolt for ten dollars into town or, you Yeah, get a transfer. Because you're not actually at the airport, you're near the airport. So all those airport buses are not picking up at the train station. You really do have to get a private taxi or something in advance. But yeah, there's normally at least a couple of taxis around because there's taxis at the [00:32:00] airport that will drive to the railway station once you

book

Meagen: yeah

Tom: So yeah, there's options. You'll

be

Meagen: fine. Once you're in Kutaisi city, both Gladi and Bagrati are easily accessible by local bus, taxi.

I mean, you can walk up to Bagrati.

Tom: super easy

super easy, and it's a really nice walk up and down. It is up the hill, but it's great.

Okay.

Meagen: Now our number three UNESCO

Tom: UNESCO

Meagen: and we are of course talking about Upper Svaneti and the medieval towers in Ushguli. We mentioned, I don't know if it was this episode

the

winter

Tom: winter, the winter tourism episode, we did discuss a little bit about going to Ushguli in that area.

Meagen: that area So this area is recognized by UNESCO for its unique medieval villages and the stunning mountain landscapes. Ushguli, it's the highest continuously inhabited settlement in Europe, and they've got villages perched at altitudes of up to 2, 200 meters.

Like it's, it's right up there. , One of the things that sets [00:33:00] this area apart is the defensive stone towers that were built between the 9th and the 12th centuries, and this is the UNESCO sites. They're called koshki. Some of them reach up to 25 meters high, and they were designed to protect local families during times of invasion.

If there was something going down, you would get the whole family into the tower and that would be your protective, it's like your mini castle.

Tom: castle. Yeah, and these are sort of thin, rectangular, squarish, sort of dark stone, a dark grey brown stone towers. And there's loads them, yeah, over 200 around

Meagen: there. And even today, some of the towers are actually, they're still owned by local families and

Tom: they use them for

Meagen: storage and, but also like special ceremonies and events and stuff like that.

Tom: Yeah, because you used to live in them with the animals and everything. It was like an entire home. Different levels and layers, yeah. And the animals lived downstairs and people lived upstairs.

And we talked about this a bit in the winter episode. It's not necessarily a modern convenience to live. in these [00:34:00]

So that's why, yeah, it's more like historical monuments, but some of them are privately owned. Some of them are like museums that you can go and visit. You might need to book in advance.

I think there's one in Mestia that you can pretty much turn up to, but most of them you want to call them in advance if you actually want to visit. And yeah, a lot of them are just not derelict is probably the wrong word, but they're not. Visitable. You can see them from the outside and you can take photos of the scenery around them and they're in it and they, you know, they, they puncture the image by having this cool tower in the middle of a very scenic valley , and mountains behind and this sort of thing.

So, yeah, it's a very cool,

very cool

Meagen: place to

be. So apparently the UNESCO listed area of Upper Svaneti includes several villages. The most accessible is of course Mestia, which is sort of like, what did you say, it's like the capital of

Tom: You would say it's the capital of that area. This is where everyone stays in hotels and this is like the touch point for visiting the rest

Meagen: the region

You'll find yeah. A mix of the ancient stone towers

and modern

Tom: in between modern

buildings

Meagen: cafes ski [00:35:00] resort. It's all like old and new, all intermixed right there.

But the real, real step back in time is if you make the journey to Ushguli, which I said is the.

The highest continuously inhabited settlement in Europe.

Tom: It's, yeah, it's continuously inhabited. I think there's some joke about it, that literally one guy lives there in the

Meagen: so they so they

Tom: just so he can keep

it

Meagen: Ushguli, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful little settlement, but you'll see the ancient towers and then in the back, in the backdrop of that is the snow capped peak of Mount Shakara. Is that how

you pronounce

Tom: Shakara, yeah. Sorry, I talked in the other episode about Ushba, but actually Shakara is the one that you can see from

there, And

Ushba is the one that's actually the highest

Meagen: mountain,

I'll go through and do a correction on

Tom: other one. Okay, yeah, I might have, we might be mixing

Meagen: the mountains.

There's, there's three really big mountains in Georgia. Yeah, they're really big and you can get them [00:36:00] confused.

Tom: Shakara

is the one that you can see that's the famous photo that you Shakara, but I had this feeling that wasn't actually the highest mountain in the region, that was just the one that's the scenic one Ushguli, but I could

Meagen: be wrong. I think it's meant to be Georgia's highest mountain, but I can fact check it. That's cool. We'll add that in the show notes if you really

Tom: Let me look this up.

Yeah, sorry, Ushba is 4, 710 metres. It's very close. in the same area.

Shakara is the one that you can see behind ushguli as we said, it's 5,

193

metres.

Meagen: And I

Tom: think we were talking about Kazbegi in the winter episode, and that's the one that's like 5080

Meagen: 080 ish.

Tom: I

Meagen: I think Kazbegi's like the third highest in Georgia. People think it's the big one, but it's not.

Tom: Ushpa's a lot smaller, but I like Ushpa because Ushpa has two peaks right next to each other, so it's sort of It's like a camel. Like a twin camel.

Meagen: Camel

mountain Yeah.

Love it.

Tom: Yeah. So, Shakara, there. And it's a, it's incredibly scenic

Everyone's

Meagen: Summer or [00:37:00] winter, winter is obviously a little bit more tricky to get to Ushguli, but it is possible. Just, you know, go back and listen to the winter episode.

We discussed it along there. But we went up in the summertime and it's just gorgeous. Beautiful, green valleys, the church that's in Ushguli has some of the most well preserved frescoes in the church there because something about the mountain air, preserves them better. Which makes sense.

You go to the museums and everything's like in their little cold boxes and stuff like that. So the frescoes there are really well preserved. Beautiful little village, definitely worth visiting. And yeah, they've got the towers there. And some of the more, you know, the postcards, basically the Georgian postcards you'll see will be Ushguli with the towers.

So if you're wanting to get to Svaneti, it has become much more accessible in recent years to get up there.

The roads have been improved over the last couple of years, which has made it a much smoother drive, which is fantastic. You can also get to Mestia with a quick flight. There's a one hour flight, but it [00:38:00] gets cancelled a lot in the wintertime. And it gets cancelled a lot, let's be honest, in general. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Tom: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not super reliable and I think it's nicer to do the two day trip and just stop overnight somewhere else way Rather than doing like a seven and a half hour drive

all the way

Meagen: there No, take your time to get there. Yeah, it's like seven and a half, eight hours to get there and just know that you're in for a long trip.

But don't power through it because there's so many things to stop at

Tom: Yeah

there's loads of stuff to do on the way. You're basically, from Tbilisi, you're crossing almost all of Georgia, like a huge amount of Georgia. Don't just power it out to get to Mestia. There's so much other things to

Meagen: to do

Generally the best time of year to visit is June to September. This is when you're going to get the best hiking, the best accessibility to explore the villages. Svaneti is really famous for its hiking, especially the Mestia to Ushguli trek. It's one of the most famous. Of course it will be very busy because it's the most famous, but that's

Tom: it is. Yeah, quite a lot of tourists

Meagen: of course, has its own charm. Everything's covered in snow. Mestia has a [00:39:00] ski resort, which we discussed in the winter episode as well.

Tom: ski resorts, really. One, another one, just near Svaneti. Which we can't pronounce, so we won't. There's two there. Just look up ski resorts near Mestia. There you go.

Meagen: But just remember getting in and out. Avalanches happen. It's that sort of thing. And they'll get the snowmobiles in to clean it out, but you don't know how long it'll take, and sometimes you can end up spending a little bit more time in a destination than you had anticipated. But Svaneti in general, the weather can be unpredictable, so even if you do go up in summer, take a jacket. It gets cold. It's just colder up there.

Tom: Yeah. It's in mountains, people. Come on. Yep.

Meagen: Yes it's colder. Also, while you're there, don't forget to try some of the very specific Svan cuisine. It's really good.

You want to try kubdari, you can get it in Georgia, but it just tastes a little bit better up in

Tom: in Svaneti

Meagen: Georgia Svaneti. is definitely in

Tom: Svaneti

Meagen: Georgia, Oh my goodness, you can get it in Tbilisi,

Tom: Yeah, you can get it pretty much everywhere,

Meagen: It's more

Tom: authentic if you have

it there.

Meagen: of course,

which is

potato It's

Tom: It's

[00:40:00] just, they mix a whole load of cheese with a load of mashed potato and they turn it into this incredible stringy, goo of

Meagen: amazingness.

You can't go wrong. . Can't go

Tom: Carby Fatty Wonderland.

Yep.

Meagen: Yeah, and also, of course, the Svanetian salt, which they'll sprinkle on pretty much everything.

It's, there's great food up

Tom: Spiced

salt, but not a spicy salt. It is not a hot salt. It is just a multiple spices that just tastes of

Georgia

Meagen: So there you go, that's the three UNESCO sites of Georgia. Sadly for Bagrati, it's not there anymore, but

Tom: there

anymore

know, it

It happened. people lose UNESCO stuff all the

Meagen: Be

Tom: Be more careful with your reconstructions, please.

There

Meagen: There are definitely

Tom: a

Meagen: I think there's like 15 different things that are on the tentative list, and we'll do a different episode on the tentative ones, because 15's a

Tom: could do that.

[00:41:00] loads. That'll be like a

two

parter.

Meagen: these places are really great that, as we mentioned in the beginning, that we definitely think should be on there, Vardzia or Uplisike. These places are incredible, and the fact that they're not UNESCO, I do actually find very confusing. We'll go into a little bit more depth about those, Places in another episode, then of course there is the cultural intangible heritage UNESCO, qualifications.

I don't know. Awards? I

don't

know Medals What do you get Trophies What

do you

Tom: there a trophy? Yeah,

Meagen: Just a

Tom: website listing,

Meagen: of course, , the qvevri winemaking technique is cultural intangible heritage, polyphonic singing. There is a specific style of wrestling, that Tom and I were reading up earlier today and I really want to learn, before I was like, eh, wrestling, I really care about sports.

But then I was reading about it. I'm like, Oh, this is really interesting. Now I want to go to a sports match.

Tom: wrestling matches with music, folk music.

Meagen: It's

like

Tom: like an entire show [00:42:00] wrestling, also people can win. So it's like a sport as well as

Meagen: I knew wrestling was really big. I don't know if you're watching the Olympics , , Georgia won a couple of, got a few medals in wrestling.

They're really big on their wrestling, but I just thought it was like just wrestling, wrestling. I didn't realize that there was a. traditional cultural heritage of wrestling that is put together with music and it has special moves that I, yeah, I

am to

Tom: Because

it's not like they advertised this as something you can go and see in Tbilisi. I've never seen it

I'm gonna research this

Meagen: and I'm going to find someone who knows about it and we're going to interview them and we're going to put a whole episode together because I'm, I'm interested now. So anyway, yes, wrestling, qvevri method and polyphonic singing. And we did do an episode on polyphonic singing

Tom: Yeah, and there's some natural, sites as well. Natural wetlands and things that are on the UNESCO

Meagen: list.

There are! So this actually is a big topic but we're going to break it down because

Tom: Well, we're 45 minutes in already

Meagen: I think

Tom: think

Meagen: You've heard it. You've heard us talk enough.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it is a podcast that people literally listen to it to [00:43:00] hear us

Meagen: talk,

Tom: guess.

So, is supposed to sort of You knew what were getting into

if you

Meagen: Yeah.

Tom: right

Yeah, I mean, otherwise don't listen to podcasts if you don't like

listening to

Meagen: to people. But that said, thank you for listening to our podcast. We really do appreciate you guys tuning in and listening.

Thank you to everybody for your positive support. We do have people that message us, or we meet people around town that

tours

Tom: tours.

Thank you. for joining

Meagen: you

for letting us know that you enjoy listening to these episodes. We're hoping to do more. Do more. I know we say this every time.

Tom: Busy! Busy,

busy Not

Meagen: but we are hoping to really bring out some more episodes. I have been working hard on different articles. So if you do go to eatthistours. com and then click on blog, you'll find a lot of this content. in article form. It might not be a podcast yet, but we do have the article there.

If you do want to just go have a look through and see, you know, if you want to do some more research on what to do on your trip to Georgia, go to the blog and check it out [00:44:00] there.

Tom: Alright, so that's it from the, UNESCO Historic Sites. Thanks for listening. And please, if you've enjoyed the show and enjoy the show in general, recommend it to other people. Recommend Georgia to other people

because this is a country that's still, it's getting some recognition internationally, but it's still not really known as a tourist destination enough.

And it should be, because it is such a cool place, such welcoming people, and, Well, you know, wine. So, Why not?

Meagen: Yeah winenot

Tom: winenot come Georgia

All

Meagen: right and we hope to see you very soon, right here in Georgia Bye

Thanks for listening to the Tbilisi podcast. Connect with us at tbilisipodcast. com where you can find all relevant social media links, join our email newsletter, and discover more about travel, tours, and services in Georgia. This show was brought to you by foodfundtravel. com, and eatthistours.

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