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Oh, thank you for having a pronounceable surname.

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It's extremely kind of you.

3
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It really is.

4
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Now you're gonna pronounce it wrong, aren't you?

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It's Rayman.

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I mean, I can't Rayman Rayman.

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Alright, uh, we ready?

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We're doing it.

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Hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

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I am Andy Orian, alongside me is the fabulous.

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Pip.

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Hi Andy.

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And today we are joined by Leo Raymond.

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Hello, Leon.

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Thanks for having me.

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Don't me to be here.

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Very good.

18
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My pleasure.

19
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Welcome to the podcast.

20
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Um, so Leon, uh, we Leo, sorry.

21
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We can cut out.

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Can Sweet.

23
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Sorry, did I say it both times as well?

24
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No, you we're okay the first time.

25
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Oh, okay.

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Thanks.

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Leon's different, it's a different feel to it.

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Sohow, Leon, I dunno.

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Yeah.

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Sounds a bit murdery.

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Yeah, it's true In the film, the The Leon film.

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Yeah.

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Maybe the weird Exactly.

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I think we're in the wrong emotional genre for my next question, but my next question is a serious one, which is what is keeping you up at night?

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You know, when you have, so you've realized something and you kind of wish everyone else had realized it as well.

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And so I look every day at thinking about, spend my entire day thinking about how do I help?

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Use what skills I have and what skills you guys have to help us make this great transition to life after carbon happen.

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And I'm kind of worried about the fact that there are too many people who just rather not look at it, not think about it.

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Well, I think there are both of us that just have our hands over our eyes because it's easier really.

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And I mean, maybe that's normal and human, but it's also kind of.

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Terrifying and dangerous as well.

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And I'm not, I'm really not, I'm not a sandal wearing sustainability person.

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You'll see that as we go, but um, sure.

44
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Yeah.

45
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No sandals sand, they, these shoes that I've got outta the cupboard.

46
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Okay.

47
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Um, but I, and I, you know, I'm trying not to be worried about it, but I, and I'm not worried, but I do sort of see an amazing opportunity to do something a bit differently and think differently about it.

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And there's like of us get into it.

49
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Don't you think there's moments in the history of like the world where people suddenly started seeing things differently?

50
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I keep thinking about, someone once told me about, this is gonna sound pretty crazy, but like, you know, someone once discovered perspective in art.

51
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Yeah, suddenly these Italians started TAing in 3d.

52
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It's called the Renaissances.

53
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Well, exactly.

54
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Yeah.

55
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But someone before that was all 2d, weren't they?

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Yeah.

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I know you love your history.

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The early Renaissances.

59
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Very good.

60
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Why, well, how'd you get from like God makes that apple fall to maybe it might be gravity or how'd you go from like.

61
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The way we've been living our lives and most of the way we grew up, uh, you know, our age to one after that, which is different.

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I like your 2D to 3D example because 2D to 3d, the reason they moved from 2D to 3d, just as much as we moved from beat backs to, uh, you know, DVDs or whatever is, it's better.

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Like, you know, coming along with your 2D pictures at the local market, when someone's cracked the 3d, you know, you'd be like, ah, look at Roger Forche.

64
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You can't work it out.

65
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No, no tech, no tech's got no debt with your cartoon Simpson cutout, you know, two-dimensional world.

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It's not cutting it next to a sort of, you know, Spiral of death.

67
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So, but here's our problem with climate change.

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We don't know what that looks like.

69
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And it are, we are scared.

70
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Well, we sort of think it might be better eventually.

71
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No, there's no one making that story.

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No one's telling that story.

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And I'm not a, like, I'm not a sort of utopian tech solve everything.

74
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The world's bright and shiny other side.

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I really don't think that, but I think that's the sort of psychological shift required.

76
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And I can see that you spend your whole day.

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In like one of those reporting jobs, measuring carbon footprint.

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It's important, but we need to sort of know that that's where we start from.

79
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Otherwise how can you change it?

80
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But if it's on your whole day saying what you shouldn't do and getting upset about being frustrated, cuz no one is listening to you in the organization or your business you work in or, or you dunno how to do it yourself and you sort of feel a bit guilty about really, you sort of know what you should be doing, but you don't really know quite how, what all adds are.

81
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I don't think anyone really knows what they should.

82
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No, no.

83
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They're not clear and, and nor am I necessarily, but.

84
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I think there's that, it sort of leads you to a place of kind of quite a sort of broken dead end, and that's where we all are about it, but we could shift to thinking about it differently.

85
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Do you not think part of the problem is that kind of fundamental and it's something to do with human nature, frankly, the inertia thing of somebody else.

86
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I'm just one person.

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I'm a little person.

88
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Yeah.

89
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Somebody else somewhere is gonna sort this out.

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Somebody's gonna.

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Solve it, and it's not gonna be me.

92
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It's gonna be the governments of the world or whatever else.

93
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I will just sit here and wait for the apple to fall from the tree and that, you know, that might happen, but it might be quite a while, and it'll get a lot more unpleasant before that starts to really kick in.

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A very smart friend of mine says to me, actually, it's less about what you use yourself do in terms of your plastic recycling, which by the way, doesn't really make much difference at all relative to what's going on out there, but hey, we do it anyway.

95
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Because it's good prac, good practice, but where, what's the lever you can pull most effectively?

96
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So for you guys, for example, is using your podcast as a space to kind of have this conversation, the the most powerful thing you could do to affect the most number of people, most radically Dunno, that was one way of thinking about like systems change or whatever.

97
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Well do you do, I mean, for us, we're advisors, you know, and I, this is.

98
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Thought leadership apparently.

99
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How dare you?

100
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I mean, we're all vomiting into cups because it's a, it's a stereotype word, but effectively it's a shorthand for the fact that we, our thoughts need leadership.

101
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I mean, you know, let's be real about it, like, It's a really complicated problem.

102
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Yes.

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We all have to work together.

104
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That's true.

105
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You know, we gotta, you, I, I didn't think you quite get to what you wanted to say, so I think we need to hear that because that, you know, you're leaning towards a more sort of optimistic mindset towards it.

106
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But we know we gotta work together.

107
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So my basic view on it is we will work together.

108
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And it may be, it's just a question of how many of us are gonna die because you could plot a graph of human death versus humanity spending money and sorting out climate change.

109
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And at some point it will hit.

110
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Now I don't know if that's in the next 30 years or that's the next 200 years.

111
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It could be and we could wipe ourselves out in the process.

112
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Well, we might have wars, it might get worse.

113
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No, I think it's more likely to be that my and who knows, none of us knows really.

114
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And I'm not buying a, you know, myself, a villa in New Zealand to kind of cope with it, unfortunately.

115
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But, And why would I?

116
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But I think the most likely thing is kind of really intense versions of the things that are bad now happen more.

117
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And there's a, there is a version of what happens next, which is much more inequality than now.

118
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Not necessarily than what the journey of our experience was.

119
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Like what?

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Fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, whatever.

121
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That things were getting sort of better.

122
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Yeah.

123
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But it's not necessarily true.

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You think about immigration is a real challenge and people get very upset about it in the uk.

125
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Imagine immigration when there's no water or nothing to eat.

126
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Well, once the resource, we've been going in a direction of more and more resources.

127
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No one wants to learn their standard of living.

128
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You start shutting off resources.

129
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People are gonna go mentally.

130
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But you know, there was a period there, right?

131
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Looking at the micro level, looking at the uk, there was, and you are gonna really hate me for this cause I do bang on about the same thing.

132
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But there was a point.

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About 13 years ago and 10 years before that when things really did seem to be getting better in the uk where we seemed to be dealing with poverty, dealing with immigration, dealing with all those things, not perfectly, but in a way that seemed to be moving in the right direction of frankly, well, the nineties and the naughties were really globally, two have the most successful, peaceful periods of history Now.

134
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There was loads of war in the nineties particularly, although weirdly, we are probably sort of.

135
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Blithely kind of enjoying it whilst sowing seeds of great challenge thereafter us, you know, have you heard that Nigel Farage apparently might be going out on a kind of net anti net zero position?

136
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Have you heard, heard that stuff?

137
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Oh, I dunno if that's true or not.

138
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I think that's just because he, he's a narcissistic bastard.

139
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But it's also indicative of like, there's a, there's someone's gotta pay.

140
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Why should it be us?

141
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And there's this sort of clash of.

142
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There's always people from, and it is often like liberal, middle class type saying, we all gotta consume less la la, la.

143
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And then someone else saying, well, who's gonna pay for that with climate change, if it requires mass change amongst people, both societies, Japan and, and probably Germany, these very compliance societies, yeah, they're miles ahead of us.

144
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The Brits were a rebellious load of inventors.

145
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And maybe that's maybe what we are leading there is that when you've gotta use invention, but please, what?

146
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What, so this thing's bothering you.

147
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It could be really bad.

148
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Where, where now, and that's not, yeah, and that's not what dwells in my mind the whole time.

149
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I'm not like sort of, but I've been thinking there's just not enough attempt to kind of reimagine a better future and start to make tracks towards that and help particularly help companies, businesses small and large see that there's a commercial upside in it.

150
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How could you make good profit?

151
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Create a great business that is dominant in the future because you've figured out how to have a clean share of market.

152
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No one talks about a clean share of market, but they should.

153
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What does it mean to have a share of market where you're using less carbon than the the next people?

154
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That's what clean share of market means.

155
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I made it up, but that's kind of the point.

156
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Yeah, yeah.

157
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But it, that's not a piece of language that's currently in circulation, but it should be because the clean share market companies should be the ones that win.

158
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The expense of the dirty ones aren't changing their habits.

159
00:08:38,785 --> 00:08:45,295
See, there's a lot, I mean, when I say there's a lot of greenwashing, I worked in cosmetics for 15 years and I, I, I mean, the whole thing is a lie.

160
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You know?

161
00:08:46,075 --> 00:08:48,055
It's selling gunk to the, you're not worth, worth it.

162
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I mean, yeah, it's just, I mean, if you, okay, I'll tell you, if you don't believe me, you know, it says if people who got sensitive skiing, they all say to you, oh, well I only have anything.

163
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Thing that's dermatologically tested and dermatology tested means you failed the dermatological tests Dermatologically approved, which is really hard to do by the way.

164
00:09:06,390 --> 00:09:08,040
There's like three products on the market.

165
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You do it, it means, yeah, you can apply it to all sorts of skins and you don't have a reaction.

166
00:09:12,485 --> 00:09:24,450
So you learn these things early in the cosmetic industry and you're just like, oh, what I like are the adverts that say up to a hundred percent success rate, which presumably is anywhere between zero zero and, but there's a lot of green washing.

167
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But underneath it, There's also a fucking army of people out there researching, controlling this shit.

168
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And there is a movement of like what is, what is Caus calling bullshit literally, which is fitting for this show on the claims.

169
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And there's a big thing going at the moment about ad claims or you know, product claims being being lies and stuff.

170
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And that's really helpful to have that view, but it's also not a sort of, I don't think it can be a black or white kind of scenario cuz there's a sort of space in between now and next where it's gonna be quite gray for a while.

171
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172
00:10:00,540 --> 00:10:01,380
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173
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174
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175
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176
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177
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178
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179
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180
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181
00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:53,190
And at this point, let me quickly remind you to give us a nice review, please on Apple Podcast or follow us on Spotify so you'll never miss an episode.

182
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:54,630
Now back to the chat.

183
00:10:56,370 --> 00:10:57,780
But let me understand you a little bit.

184
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What's your background in it?

185
00:10:59,130 --> 00:11:01,080
25 years in sales and marketing.

186
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,060
I mean, I was part of the problem, I suppose.

187
00:11:03,150 --> 00:11:06,180
And then in terms of what are you doing exactly now?

188
00:11:06,180 --> 00:11:09,030
You advised larger companies, two things.

189
00:11:09,030 --> 00:11:12,690
I help big companies get more sustainable and small, sustainable companies get big.

190
00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:14,400
So I'm working on both sides of the equation.

191
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:21,000
The reason I've done that is I've figured out right, I'm gonna take 5 million tons of carbon dioxide or covered out of the atmosphere in the next five years.

192
00:11:21,435 --> 00:11:22,215
How am I gonna do it?

193
00:11:22,395 --> 00:11:23,115
Oh, that's great.

194
00:11:23,115 --> 00:11:25,155
So you set your, set yourself a target.

195
00:11:25,155 --> 00:11:28,485
And partly because no one was doing that, they're all the people working in the space right now.

196
00:11:28,485 --> 00:11:32,205
Either agencies, ad agencies making communications, but not knowing enough about it.

197
00:11:32,205 --> 00:11:34,185
And so they greenwash usually by accident, to be honest.

198
00:11:34,245 --> 00:11:34,365
Mm-hmm.

199
00:11:34,725 --> 00:11:40,355
Or it's kind of people working and reporting and pledging and kind of doing carbon footprinting, which is important, but it doesn't tell you so what to do next.

200
00:11:41,430 --> 00:11:47,430
As led of PR firms, you know these guys, they're doing narrative design, but I'm not sure narrative designs are gonna save us.

201
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What we need is a more fundamental rethink about how are you gonna make money tomorrow?

202
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,870
In a way, it's not gonna kill everyone or your own kids or your own family, your own communities.

203
00:11:54,870 --> 00:11:57,901
So as a marketing person or a consultant by background, I guess I know how to.

204
00:11:58,715 --> 00:12:02,375
Drive aspiration and shape behavior and think about how you take an organization on that journey.

205
00:12:02,375 --> 00:12:02,645
Yeah.

206
00:12:02,645 --> 00:12:05,135
To be sort of brutal about you is a discipline.

207
00:12:05,135 --> 00:12:06,545
He's a very intelligent man.

208
00:12:06,545 --> 00:12:15,865
So, you know, I'm, I'm I, I, I, you know, I you are advice, but as in on a basic disciplines, marketing on a border sense, you know, would that be marketing, marketing innovation?

209
00:12:15,895 --> 00:12:17,556
Because everyone misunderstands that word.

210
00:12:17,561 --> 00:12:18,125
I know.

211
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I'm head of marketing and the firm, which is great job.

212
00:12:20,885 --> 00:12:28,204
Everyone thinks I'm head of sales, but you know, uh, I forget, I'm, you don't call it, I end up doing PR half the time, but really I'm a market, you know?

213
00:12:28,444 --> 00:12:34,204
But marketing is this big word because it is really, as you say, it's, it's the fundamental link between.

214
00:12:34,665 --> 00:12:35,715
Who is your market?

215
00:12:35,835 --> 00:12:37,995
Why do they want to buy it, and what is it?

216
00:12:38,235 --> 00:12:49,785
And so you are saying take a more optimistic, positive approach to say your duty and your market is to make this thing like without pissing off anyone you know?

217
00:12:49,875 --> 00:12:50,505
And a hundred percent.

218
00:12:50,505 --> 00:12:51,975
And there's a thing, have you heard of this thing called the.

219
00:12:52,020 --> 00:12:53,010
Say do gap.

220
00:12:53,189 --> 00:12:55,500
If you ever get into this space, you read about it a lot, right?

221
00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:56,430
People say they want that.

222
00:12:56,430 --> 00:13:00,180
That's, I'm gonna teach my kids say do very much, but let's just not say do gap.

223
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,140
You do, as I say, I do as I please say, do gap.

224
00:13:04,470 --> 00:13:05,819
That's a much better version.

225
00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:10,620
You know, there's a real tone in how you're approaching this conversation where I think it's really important.

226
00:13:10,980 --> 00:13:13,470
It's that it's not to dramatize things.

227
00:13:13,470 --> 00:13:18,030
It's like, you know, I, I've been in business, I don't judge people for the fact that.

228
00:13:18,175 --> 00:13:30,714
They want to build a t-shirt company that makes super ethical t-shirts, but in order to promote the company, they brought some t-shirts from China, you know, made by, in a, in a sweat factory cheap, because that's what they have to do when they're starting

229
00:13:30,719 --> 00:13:44,775
the, you know, basically green washing is mostly because you have to cut corners when you're a small business and no, nobody really knows so, And then you are taking the big company example, which is like, I'm not this fucking enormous supplier of services.

230
00:13:44,775 --> 00:13:46,935
That's, you know, there are replacements of plastics.

231
00:13:46,935 --> 00:13:47,415
Sure.

232
00:13:47,415 --> 00:13:48,915
But they're not that well tested.

233
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:49,965
There aren't that many of them.

234
00:13:49,965 --> 00:13:51,135
They are more expensive.

235
00:13:51,135 --> 00:13:53,385
It's complicated to enter your supply chain.

236
00:13:53,385 --> 00:13:56,325
I mean, you've got Unilever producing a billion bottles a day.

237
00:13:56,330 --> 00:14:03,435
They can't just switch to hemp bottles that, you know, no one's tested properly or, but one thing, one thing we can't have though is, is big companies not.

238
00:14:03,645 --> 00:14:07,065
Taking it on as a real challenge and not thinking creatively or lashing number one.

239
00:14:07,345 --> 00:14:11,775
A number one on list and it's the whole, um, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

240
00:14:11,780 --> 00:14:12,105
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

241
00:14:12,105 --> 00:14:12,465
Don't go.

242
00:14:12,465 --> 00:14:12,865
Yeah, yeah.

243
00:14:13,005 --> 00:14:14,415
We haven't tested any of these things.

244
00:14:14,415 --> 00:14:17,235
We dunno how to do any of these things so we'll just carry on doing well.

245
00:14:17,235 --> 00:14:20,945
And also cuz it's a lot easier just to kind of, not make too much change in your regular life cuz it's too painful.

246
00:14:21,285 --> 00:14:28,035
But that's why I want to work with, and I do work with very small startups that might, if they're lucky, have an exponential impact on the, on the thing.

247
00:14:28,035 --> 00:14:28,095
Yeah.

248
00:14:28,105 --> 00:14:28,425
Because.

249
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,590
We can't necessarily wait for some big people to get their heads together.

250
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:37,830
We also need to kind of tie back both sides of the equation, hoping that I'll work out one way or the other, which is the right one to go for, to get to my 5 million target.

251
00:14:37,980 --> 00:14:45,060
Talking about you and sustainability and how much you care about people, actually, not just measuring it, but doing something about it.

252
00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:49,200
We haven't actually mentioned Eden Labs and what they do, so I built this company.

253
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,700
It's about, I'll say about five months old.

254
00:14:51,314 --> 00:14:52,305
Um, it's rocking.

255
00:14:52,574 --> 00:14:53,265
It's really going.

256
00:14:53,295 --> 00:14:58,275
And what we're doing is helping big and small companies work out how to make money green.

257
00:14:58,334 --> 00:15:06,944
Basically, how you're gonna grow your business and, and succeed in a world of, you know, where net zero is normal, where as there is a post carbon world somewhere down the line.

258
00:15:07,439 --> 00:15:09,300
So let's start on it now and what does it look like?

259
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:15,750
For example, how'd you help a giant tour operator or a tour operator holiday company build a sustainable travel marketplace?

260
00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:17,550
There are small companies in some amazing stuff.

261
00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:22,350
By the way, one called byways, let's call it byway, is quite interesting and like slow travel by how you spell that.

262
00:15:22,439 --> 00:15:24,449
B Y W A Y.

263
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,340
So, so gimme an example in more detail.

264
00:15:26,730 --> 00:15:30,810
Like you go into a business, you sit with them, you listen to what they're saying, and then what you write.

265
00:15:30,810 --> 00:15:31,650
Write them a report.

266
00:15:31,650 --> 00:15:32,460
You bring in other people.

267
00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:33,180
Yeah, we work together.

268
00:15:33,180 --> 00:15:36,689
I sort of use, I usually inspire them with, look, here's some examples of people that are getting it right.

269
00:15:36,970 --> 00:15:38,350
Big and small, what would that mean for you?

270
00:15:38,410 --> 00:15:39,340
So here's a small one.

271
00:15:39,340 --> 00:15:45,310
There's a brilliant, brilliant, um, electric toothbrush company called Siri, S u r I try siri.com as a website.

272
00:15:45,310 --> 00:15:45,910
I recommend it.

273
00:15:45,915 --> 00:15:48,700
In fact, I went to my hygienist today, said it was doing a brilliant job.

274
00:15:49,694 --> 00:15:51,135
Right here isn't, I think I might have one of those.

275
00:15:51,135 --> 00:15:52,965
How can an nuri not have a sury?

276
00:15:53,444 --> 00:15:53,925
I mean, hey.

277
00:15:53,925 --> 00:15:54,645
Yeah, you need it.

278
00:15:55,395 --> 00:15:58,785
I mean, so what they've done is they've said they used to work in like p and g and stuff.

279
00:15:58,785 --> 00:16:03,194
They know all that well, but what they've done is they've said, right, we're gonna redesign the toothbrush head to be compostable.

280
00:16:03,525 --> 00:16:05,145
It's made out of castor royal bristles.

281
00:16:05,150 --> 00:16:06,435
It feels great, by the way, in your mouth.

282
00:16:06,435 --> 00:16:08,955
It's much nicer than the nasty big company ones.

283
00:16:09,345 --> 00:16:15,465
Then they have designed it so that you can take the battery out when it dies, cuz the other ones, most ones, you can't take the battery out.

284
00:16:15,465 --> 00:16:18,255
So you sort of literally, it's in every toothbrush you ever had is in landfill.

285
00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:19,540
Yeah, nice thought.

286
00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:24,760
These guys, they can take it out and refurb it, put it back in so you can have the same toothbrush effectively forever.

287
00:16:25,060 --> 00:16:26,470
And, but this is the critical thing.

288
00:16:27,069 --> 00:16:28,420
It's, imagine if Johnny, ive.

289
00:16:29,219 --> 00:16:33,900
Swallow the sustainability Bible and then decided to go after circular electric toothbrushes.

290
00:16:33,959 --> 00:16:35,610
That's what it looks like and feels like to you.

291
00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:40,589
So it's also way better than the sort of aggressive thing you normally use.

292
00:16:40,770 --> 00:16:41,370
Amen.

293
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:48,120
Even, you know, there's, um, another client we're working with is those guys that mate those amazing mattresses that you get delivered off the internet, you know, oh, I'm just about to buy one of those.

294
00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:48,800
From?

295
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:48,980
Can I?

296
00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:49,610
Not now?

297
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:51,530
Well, there are some ones around.

298
00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:53,720
I was thinking, so did you know it's made out of oil?

299
00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:54,350
Which one?

300
00:16:54,350 --> 00:16:54,800
Which one?

301
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:55,400
Which one are you getting?

302
00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:55,910
Emma.

303
00:16:56,270 --> 00:17:01,820
But those guys are trying timber particular, trying to move away from an oil-based formulation, reducing it.

304
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:02,910
Getting into Biola.

305
00:17:03,650 --> 00:17:05,660
You're basically telling me I can't buy mattress.

306
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,720
No, but do you think that idea that like if I was really mean, I'd say.

307
00:17:08,930 --> 00:17:10,460
How's it feel sleeping on fossil fuel?

308
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:11,450
Like I'm not into it.

309
00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:19,700
I think this is a lot like the digital transformation of the last 20 years is a much bigger and much more important, which is there were some people who kind of got on it, learned about it.

310
00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:26,280
Got confident and moved forward in their lives and there were some that kind of were scared, didn't want to engage, and 20 years later they couldn't find work.

311
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,260
This is gonna be exactly the same.

312
00:17:28,260 --> 00:17:29,850
Is it mostly an age thing though, do you think?

313
00:17:29,850 --> 00:17:30,180
No.

314
00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:31,110
It's an attitude thing.

315
00:17:31,260 --> 00:17:32,130
It's like, what's your psychology?

316
00:17:32,135 --> 00:17:34,350
Are you kind of able to embrace and deal with change?

317
00:17:34,350 --> 00:17:35,130
Are you terrified of it?

318
00:17:35,130 --> 00:17:35,580
Probably.

319
00:17:35,670 --> 00:17:36,960
Is it not a financial thing?

320
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,480
Everyone says I, well, I often look at, it annoys me.

321
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,280
I go to the supermarket and looking like the.

322
00:17:41,865 --> 00:17:42,735
Kitchen roll you can buy.

323
00:17:42,735 --> 00:17:42,945
Right.

324
00:17:42,945 --> 00:17:45,675
And the, the eco one is more expensive than the regular one.

325
00:17:45,764 --> 00:17:45,825
Yeah.

326
00:17:45,825 --> 00:17:47,865
And I guess it's to do with scale and the factory or something.

327
00:17:47,865 --> 00:17:51,975
It's so like, that won't be like that in the future, but for now it's a massive pain in the ass.

328
00:17:52,185 --> 00:17:52,995
That's a great firm.

329
00:17:53,024 --> 00:17:56,115
Do you know, um, homewares retailer, dun Elm?

330
00:17:56,235 --> 00:17:58,095
I think it's a really good example of how you get this, right?

331
00:17:58,095 --> 00:17:58,274
Right.

332
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:04,365
So their view is we are gonna encourage our customers who are doing sort of home makeover to bring the stuff they can't get rid of.

333
00:18:04,445 --> 00:18:05,405
Back to the store.

334
00:18:05,465 --> 00:18:08,195
Now you might say that's Norian, meaning Home Makeover in the first place.

335
00:18:08,195 --> 00:18:10,145
If you're a pure sustainability person, you wouldn't do that.

336
00:18:10,145 --> 00:18:11,375
But nonetheless, people are gonna do it.

337
00:18:11,645 --> 00:18:17,495
And as a hassle, the convenient thing is to take it to Dun Elm and you're playing on the sheer convenience of getting rid of your rubbish.

338
00:18:17,735 --> 00:18:18,635
Two things then happen.

339
00:18:18,635 --> 00:18:21,544
One is if it's good enough, they then give it to local communities.

340
00:18:21,605 --> 00:18:27,425
And if it isn't good enough, they kind of then put into remanufacturing and turn it back into pillars, which they're all cushions or whatever, and then they sell it in their stores.

341
00:18:27,425 --> 00:18:27,995
But at a.

342
00:18:28,255 --> 00:18:29,965
Reduce price so that people can afford to buy it.

343
00:18:29,965 --> 00:18:30,885
It's the same price as the new.

344
00:18:30,905 --> 00:18:31,485
That's good.

345
00:18:31,855 --> 00:18:37,645
It's, it's, well, it's interesting cuz it's circular, you know, keeping stuff in the economy and it's also good for the good for social impact.

346
00:18:37,675 --> 00:18:38,935
That's just sort of double win.

347
00:18:39,115 --> 00:18:41,185
My issue with that, oh, not my issue.

348
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:45,285
Like the problem with that is that creative steps like that are quite hard.

349
00:18:45,955 --> 00:18:50,034
You know, there's not many people who can do it, and you also need to be in the right place to do it.

350
00:18:50,034 --> 00:18:52,014
I they're gonna listen to you, you know?

351
00:18:52,074 --> 00:18:53,125
Uh, we are not too bad.

352
00:18:53,125 --> 00:18:56,094
The Americans are quite good, but some cultures it's like, well, you ain't the boss.

353
00:18:56,364 --> 00:18:56,544
Yeah.

354
00:18:56,544 --> 00:18:57,504
You know, no one's listening.

355
00:18:57,510 --> 00:19:06,114
You know, and actually that, yeah, that's the, there's definitely something there, which is the, a lot of people working in sustainability roles and companies the last 20 years have really been like banging their heads on a door.

356
00:19:06,114 --> 00:19:06,985
People don't wanna listen.

357
00:19:06,985 --> 00:19:07,165
Yeah.

358
00:19:07,165 --> 00:19:07,864
Cuz they're too junior.

359
00:19:08,325 --> 00:19:08,985
Too junior.

360
00:19:08,985 --> 00:19:13,485
Often there's a thing, which I definitely is curious, that there's women trying to persuade old white men to listen to 'em at board level.

361
00:19:13,665 --> 00:19:14,265
Ah, don't tell me.

362
00:19:14,265 --> 00:19:14,715
Here we go.

363
00:19:15,885 --> 00:19:16,395
Do you know what I mean though?

364
00:19:16,545 --> 00:19:17,536
No, it's a bit, I do know what you mean.

365
00:19:17,541 --> 00:19:17,645
Yes.

366
00:19:17,785 --> 00:19:18,245
Of that going.

367
00:19:18,405 --> 00:19:29,205
I think there probably is, and there's, but also it's that there's a bunch of skills about how you persuade people to get excited about doing something, which is about setting vision, showing what's possible, getting excited, talking about money and commerce.

368
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,310
And it's really high when you're also worrying about changing the lights out for LEDs and who's the power supplier and the, so I feel very sad.

369
00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:41,130
I feel sorry and sad for, cause I've been working relentlessly for a long time and getting, finding it really hard to persuade.

370
00:19:41,595 --> 00:19:45,495
The rest of the firms take it on, but it's time to build the bridge between those, those sort of two camps.

371
00:19:45,585 --> 00:19:55,035
You know, if I, if I've got anything from this conversation, it's, it's that you're kind of saying to people, you know, if I was to say to a smaller, medium business, what, what should I be doing?

372
00:19:55,035 --> 00:20:04,150
It's like, well, Take a day, take your senior management, get in a freaking room and get a piece of paper and come up with something.

373
00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:06,910
You know, this is some serious fucking shit going on.

374
00:20:06,915 --> 00:20:09,129
If you are a manufacturer, work it out.

375
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,460
If you're not a manufacturer, it's all a bit, oh, we work for home and whatever.

376
00:20:12,460 --> 00:20:21,700
It's like still take a room, you know, and sort, you know, do something about, just spend the first part of that day, whatever you're doing, looking at examples of people who are trying and getting it right.

377
00:20:24,285 --> 00:20:27,435
So Leo, uh, what do you think is bullshit in business?

378
00:20:27,435 --> 00:20:33,315
What is the thing that winds you up most or where you would like change about the way things work right now?

379
00:20:33,945 --> 00:20:41,075
I think like thinking about sustainability solely as reporting and pledging and making out excuses for not doing anything practical and optimistic about it.

380
00:20:41,075 --> 00:20:42,465
Yes, look, it's important.

381
00:20:42,465 --> 00:20:45,555
We have to ha we have to understand that and not denying that work, but it ain't gonna.

382
00:20:45,695 --> 00:20:47,794
Pledging us, pledging ourselves into oblivion.

383
00:20:47,794 --> 00:20:48,245
You know what I'm saying?

384
00:20:48,274 --> 00:20:48,754
Do you know where this is?

385
00:20:48,754 --> 00:20:56,735
Do something the equivalent of as an entrepreneur, don't go to professional advisors when you're coming up with the idea that's insane.

386
00:20:57,004 --> 00:20:58,385
And ask them, you know what I mean?

387
00:20:58,385 --> 00:20:59,314
It's like professional vi.

388
00:20:59,314 --> 00:21:03,666
We're very useful people, but don't necessarily a, you know, if you come to us, we're gonna tell you.

389
00:21:04,035 --> 00:21:06,255
Problems and we're gonna tell you complications.

390
00:21:06,255 --> 00:21:06,705
You know what I mean?

391
00:21:06,705 --> 00:21:07,395
Let's got thinking.

392
00:21:07,395 --> 00:21:07,575
Yeah.

393
00:21:07,575 --> 00:21:07,875
Right.

394
00:21:08,025 --> 00:21:11,265
But I'm not, I'm not saying do stuff wildly because you might be making things worse.

395
00:21:11,265 --> 00:21:12,765
You've gotta have a bit of science behind you.

396
00:21:12,795 --> 00:21:17,895
But it's just, if you all, you spend your whole time thinking about like the numbers I've gotta report to the city.

397
00:21:17,895 --> 00:21:19,835
And that's sort of made up that that's a bit not company thing.

398
00:21:19,855 --> 00:21:20,915
That's a big company thing.

399
00:21:21,165 --> 00:21:22,006
And it's like there's too much lies.

400
00:21:23,850 --> 00:21:26,340
Okay, so this, we're gonna ask you a list of questions.

401
00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:29,070
This is our quickfire questions and we're gonna get to know you a little better.

402
00:21:29,070 --> 00:21:30,480
You only have five seconds to answer each.

403
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:31,830
We are not gonna interrupt you.

404
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,340
We probably will interrupt you, but we are gonna stop each other.

405
00:21:35,340 --> 00:21:41,040
We're gonna interrupt each other, interrupting each other, mutually assured interruption, and then we're gonna get to the end.

406
00:21:41,045 --> 00:21:42,210
We may ask you a question or two.

407
00:21:42,330 --> 00:21:42,690
Thank you.

408
00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:43,200
The music.

409
00:21:45,150 --> 00:21:45,570
Are you ready?

410
00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:46,020
I'm ready.

411
00:21:46,020 --> 00:21:46,410
Let's go.

412
00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:47,640
What was your first job?

413
00:21:48,180 --> 00:21:52,590
Uh, I worked in ad sales for the European now defunct newspaper.

414
00:21:53,879 --> 00:21:54,900
I sort of vaguely remember that.

415
00:21:54,990 --> 00:21:56,070
What was your worst job?

416
00:21:56,075 --> 00:22:00,030
Working as a porter and a medical publisher carrying magazines around.

417
00:22:00,035 --> 00:22:01,000
I've seen some dark stuff.

418
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,670
It was Nazi favorite subjects at school.

419
00:22:06,379 --> 00:22:07,000
Uh, history.

420
00:22:08,075 --> 00:22:09,065
What's your special skill?

421
00:22:09,395 --> 00:22:10,445
Um, infusing people.

422
00:22:10,885 --> 00:22:11,105
Oh.

423
00:22:11,945 --> 00:22:13,265
What did you wanna be when you grew up?

424
00:22:13,595 --> 00:22:14,045
Astronaut.

425
00:22:14,565 --> 00:22:16,025
Oh, that's my dad wanted.

426
00:22:16,445 --> 00:22:17,615
What did your parents want you to?

427
00:22:17,615 --> 00:22:18,005
A lawyer.

428
00:22:19,865 --> 00:22:20,255
Same shit.

429
00:22:20,255 --> 00:22:20,745
Best job ever.

430
00:22:20,745 --> 00:22:22,415
They're both, they're both fucking up.

431
00:22:22,895 --> 00:22:23,585
Upper tree.

432
00:22:23,765 --> 00:22:25,505
What's your go-to karaoke song?

433
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:26,860
Um, toxic though.

434
00:22:26,860 --> 00:22:27,250
Britney.

435
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:28,629
It's good.

436
00:22:29,169 --> 00:22:30,250
We might get into that later.

437
00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:31,810
She put on the pinny tails and everything.

438
00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:33,699
If you the Mark Robs version.

439
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:34,320
I love that version.

440
00:22:34,419 --> 00:22:35,139
That's what inspired me.

441
00:22:35,439 --> 00:22:35,919
Oh, that's great.

442
00:22:35,919 --> 00:22:36,310
I find it.

443
00:22:36,314 --> 00:22:36,790
Faux irony.

444
00:22:36,820 --> 00:22:38,350
Um, office dogs.

445
00:22:39,340 --> 00:22:40,689
Why's he got a hundred percent business?

446
00:22:40,695 --> 00:22:41,080
Thank you, man.

447
00:22:42,669 --> 00:22:43,679
Have you ever been fired?

448
00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:46,399
No, I haven't Actually not knowing.

449
00:22:46,865 --> 00:22:47,675
So far yourself?

450
00:22:47,675 --> 00:22:47,735
Yeah.

451
00:22:48,905 --> 00:22:50,375
What's your vice?

452
00:22:50,555 --> 00:22:52,745
Uh, I, I love television.

453
00:22:53,135 --> 00:22:53,585
Ooh.

454
00:22:54,005 --> 00:22:56,765
I had three or four series in parallel during Christmas.

455
00:22:56,765 --> 00:22:58,805
One's to sleep two and a couple to watch.

456
00:23:04,595 --> 00:23:05,505
Uh, so you got 30 seconds.

457
00:23:05,685 --> 00:23:07,925
What's your pitch for your company?

458
00:23:07,925 --> 00:23:11,105
Or, well, anything you want, you can sell your dog if you want.

459
00:23:11,585 --> 00:23:12,155
I don't have one.

460
00:23:12,215 --> 00:23:13,325
Uh, Eden lab.

461
00:23:13,860 --> 00:23:15,450
We are the Green Growth Accelerator.

462
00:23:15,630 --> 00:23:21,390
We're gonna help make companies more sustainable and make money doing it, and that's how we're gonna move the transition forward.

463
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:22,500
Be part of that with us.

464
00:23:22,830 --> 00:23:26,850
Www eden lab singular.co boom.

465
00:23:27,420 --> 00:23:28,650
And where can people find you?

466
00:23:29,395 --> 00:23:30,145
In person?

467
00:23:30,475 --> 00:23:31,695
Well, no, I've probably LinkedIn.

468
00:23:32,015 --> 00:23:32,175
LinkedIn.

469
00:23:32,395 --> 00:23:33,775
I'm a big LinkedIn player.

470
00:23:33,955 --> 00:23:34,175
Pub.

471
00:23:34,245 --> 00:23:34,535
Yeah.

472
00:23:34,645 --> 00:23:38,245
Only, uh, LinkedIn is like my, uh, platform of choice at the moment.

473
00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:38,485
Yeah.

474
00:23:38,575 --> 00:23:39,535
Okay, cool.

475
00:23:40,135 --> 00:23:41,065
So there you have it.

476
00:23:41,275 --> 00:23:43,675
That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.

477
00:23:44,005 --> 00:23:46,795
And we'll be back with Bwb Extra on Thursday.

478
00:23:46,795 --> 00:23:49,230
Until then, It's chow.