Foreign.

James Petrali.

How's it going?

It's going well.

How are you?

Good.

I went to Italy this summer, as you can tell.

Did you, Petrali?

Yeah.

I did, actually.

It was fantastic.

And I wasn't rocking and rolling.

I was actually on vacation.

It was fun, but I was showing my family some, some of my rock and roll haunts.

I don't know if they were having fun with that or not.

Where did you go?

Rome and Florence.

Okay, cool.

I have, I've never been.

Oh, you haven't?

No.

I went to Bologna for.

I know I went for a really.

It was beautiful driving through, but it was one of those things, you know, I went, played the gig, slept.

I walked around like a few blocks and flew out the next day.

Chaotic.

Didn't really see much.

There's a reoccurring theme on this podcast, which is talking about auto grill.

Did you go to an auto grill?

A gas station on the freeway?

Oh, yeah, I must have.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, fantastic food.

I don't know if I really.

Yeah, no, I didn't.

Okay.

So I, I, I guess I definitely went to gas stations, but nothing is really striking me.

The food is much better.

Yes, it is.

Just in general, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

How's it going?

Where are you?

I'm in my little shed, recording studio behind my house.

California still?

Yeah, still.

Still California.

Yeah.

We survived the fires.

I think I talked to you before the fires.

We did.

And so you are in Altadena.

I couldn't remember if it was Pasadena or Altadena.

Yeah, it's technically packed Pasadena.

But we're in a part of Pasadena that like, goes like up into Altadena.

So we're like two blocks from the fire line.

Gnarly.

Yeah, gnarly.

How, how, how'd you do through that experience, you know.

You know, it's like, how, how are you doing?

Is probably the, you know, it's still, I mean, we, we.

I feel really lucky to still have a house.

And you know, at like 6:30 when the fire started, it was so close, like, and the wind just chose a different direction.

So, yeah, it was, it was super scary.

I was here, I was like, you know, just in it on, on my roof with, you know, wow.

But yeah, we're, you know, it's been, it's been brutal.

The kid, the kids.

My son's school burned down, so it's been a really chaotic year for him, like, bouncing around.

Just like, had the roughest time with elementary school, like Covid kindergarten and, you know, cross country move.

And now this.

But, you know, we're doing okay.

We're.

It's.

It's crazy.

You know, you go up two blocks and it's like nothing is there.

So, you know, we've been here basically the whole time.

We left for a week, and then we're back in our house.

So it's been complicated and, you know, just kind of got to manage it all the time.

But we're doing it.

Yeah.

From what I've, you know, we were just at the anniversary.

Anniversary seems to have, like, some sort of celebrational connotation to me, which I don't like saying it, but it is the actual anniversary not too long ago.

And I heard a lot of positive things about the community getting it together and keeping it together.

Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of things to be, you know, to look forward to for sure.

And the people.

The people here are really great.

I mean, we're here to stay.

It's a crazy, crazy time in this.

In this community.

Crazy time in this country.

It's like, yes.

Buckle up.

Yeah.

The least I can say about it.

I guess I'm buckled up.

And now I'm just waiting for another crazy ass thing to happen.

Take it in the face.

Yep.

As.

As we talked about a little bit earlier, this is the second time you've been on the show that's.

You're.

You're like.

I think you deserve, like, a silk jacket or something.

I need to make one.

I would.

I would love Second Timer.

And there's a reason this new single is insane, dude.

I love it to sound as.

Sound as stupid as I can.

It makes.

It's very visceral, my response to this record, and it feels.

The expression feels very visceral to my ears.

It is the most sonically robust and loud and aggressive white denim so far.

It's got.

It's, you know, it's got a wide mix of voices, if you will, but it's got.

It's really tied together by this surliness and assertiveness, maybe aggressiveness, but it still retains this hooky kind of smooth pop in there.

You sneak that in still really, like, I was.

I was giving it some.

Some thought again, because I've talked to you before and it's kind of considering White Denim, which has been almost 20 years, right?

Yeah, I think, you know, 20 years since our first release.

But I mean, we've been working on it for 21 years now.

Yeah, it's crazy.

And this really illustrates, like, you just keep expanding your songwriting.

It's a real thing to My ears.

Thank you.

All right.

I'm glad to hear it.

And I guess we kind of hinted at it.

This does seem like it is a pretty clear expression of.

Of your perspective maybe on the fires in your life, in the fucked up world we have.

Yeah, it's.

I mean, at least the visceral feeling at the very least, if not the words as well.

Yeah, I think that, you know, what's direct to me is probably, you know, in terms of the lyrics.

Like, what feels really direct to me is probably not going to feel that way to the modern listener.

Um, you know, I'm still into metaphors and, you know, like, I kind of am frustrated by, like, the blatant nature of everything these days.

So.

Yeah, I'm still sticking to, you know, at least somewhat of a. I hate to sound like an asshole, but literary kind of approach to that aspect of it.

But, yeah, the visceral musical approaches is definitely forward on this as well.

It's crazy.

Like, Lock and key is like 3 years old.

And, I mean, a lot of this material I've been working on in this weird old man shed back here for years, but the timing of it and the message of it is, like, things that I wrote, you know, in.

In the last.

The last go round we had with.

With this administration are, you know, sadly, still super relevant and.

Right.

You know, still slowly moving in a circle, I guess.

So maybe Good.

Good for me in a way.

Well, but I was, you know, like eight.

Eight months ago, I was.

When I delivered the record, finally, I was like, is.

Is any of this going to resonate at this point?

It feels like.

Like ancient to me now, but, you know, it feels.

Yeah, I'm.

Yeah, it certainly doesn't feel like it's three years ago by any means.

It feels right on the nose.

There's some aggressive rock and roll out there.

Thankfully, everyone talks about, you know, the geese these days and.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

You know, I.

People seem to love geese.

I love geese.

And I think anyone who likes geese is going to dance their pants off to Lock and Key.

Yeah, we'll see.

I think that I.

Not to compare it to geese totally, but it just, you know, in the rock realm, I think it's fair.

Yeah, I think it's fair.

I remember I had a couple of manager friends when that 3D country record came out that sent this, sent the record to me, and they're like, yo, do you know this kid?

I'm like, no.

I wonder.

I think that, you know, the young people have, you know, we all have access to the same stuff.

I definitely feel a connection there with.

Yeah.

With what that group is doing, though.

Yeah.

And when I first heard so.

And I've had this a couple times, I get sent music and it was just kind of stacked up.

This link was stacked up for Lock and Key.

And I listened to it, I was really taken aback.

And I was like, this is wild.

And I was watching the video as well, and I totally didn't know it was white denim.

Like, I knew it was a week before, and then I just listened to it without reading, you know, whatever the circumstances was.

And I had to go back and I was second guessing.

I was like, is this the wrong.

I don't know.

It was very, very surprising to me.

But, man, what a tune.

Can you tell me where this hard ass Funky Blue shit's coming from?

I just have always liked that stuff, you know, I mean, it's always kind of been present in what we've done, you know, like, we've had eras where we're on, like, major labels with expectations, and maybe if we delivered something like that, then they would have been like, we need to get somebody in the room to make this more palpable.

Or.

Is that the right word?

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, you know what I'm trying to.

Say.

Like, smooth some of the edges a little bit.

Right?

Like, get it.

So we definitely have experienced a lot of that, but now I'm just like in this little 200 square foot shed with all this gear, like, piled up and.

And nobody really to tell me to.

To not referees in there.

Yeah, no referees.

I mean, I have the family like 15ft away and.

And I keep some things in check.

I work like 9 to 5 and, you know, make dinner and do that kind of stuff.

And so, yeah, I just need a lot of time and energy learning how to.

How to make things sound the way that I. I kind of have always wanted to.

The first one that I've.

I've been like the.

The first two, really.

This one and the last one are.

I'm hands on with like capturing the sounds and.

And, you know, even making a lot of them.

Like the.

The drum.

Drum part at the beginning of the song is like a Bo Diddley, like, kind of shaker on the tom.

On that tom right there.

That obscenely.

That large old.

Yeah.

Slingerland.

Yeah, yeah.

With like the, you know, calfskin maraca, like playing that thing, like the, you know, getting that sound.

And then it cuts to like a larger studio that I rented with.

With a much better Drummer than me, this guy Matt Young.

And then it kind of cuts back and forth.

It's like stuff that years ago I would have been watching the clock, like standing over an engineer's shoulder, like, what if you did this?

What if?

And you know, you just like don't have time to do that kind of thing.

So now in this way of working, I do have time to really sit and massage an arrangement and make it happen, you know.

And another positive thing with the Pandemic is I can do things like this where I talk to the.

To the winds player and I'm like Eric Dolphy, Captain Beefheart playing the saxophone, you know, like, I can give him direct references like that and then cut him loose and, you know, he gives me back really wild.

It's really intuitive.

So it's just kind of open.

Open those ways of collaborating.

Everybody's got an SM7 and.

Yeah.

And one good channel now.

You know, a lot of that.

And then what they're singing on.

On Lock and key is that.

I can't remember.

Is this.

I mean, you're shouting.

Yeah, it's.

Is this one of your.

I tried to leave that vocal, like really bare too.

There's like no processing, no reverb.

Yeah, yeah, you're hitting perfectly well.

Thank you.

I did five takes and it's mostly one take.

I kind of like lorded over the session all day and didn't play an instrument.

And in the last hour of that session, I was like, I would like to put a scratch vocal on it before we leave, you know, and the.

The engineer, Carly.

Carly Bond was like, already wrapping cables and she was like, okay, we'll.

We'll let you do it.

And.

And I ended up.

Ended up getting it.

So it was, you know, all the pin up energy of.

Of not really playing and trying to produce from a distance, like kind of, kind of let it out there.

It was fun.

It took me a few days to recover.

Let's hear it.

Is that cool?

Let's do it.

Yeah.

All right, here we go.

On the 13th day God created.

My beak with lotion babe but baby blue eyes look a deep like a ocean babe to see lots of boot liquors I can learn this trade I hope you can tell I don't need them all I know my name though I'm happy to repeat it.

Please remain seated.

The beast stop feeding cash cropping power bottom spinning top of no one taught him Holy smoke As long forgotten Ch why did you come out to play when you could give me your critics?

I walked away I take out my tumor?

I put the lock on your teeth?

Yes, I cut like a mosquito and I was already to bleed, yeah, All I can keep, baby, hey, I'm under like a key?

Keep it tight?

Under like a key?

Turn away?

I can keep it hate?

All along the green line?

See people cradle devotions?

Babe, if you just wanted to waste my time?

Maintain a steady emotion?

Babe, you say you think it's a sin?

I think you know what it is?

Take a walk across your city now running like paint and then you want to cover your lips.

You cheated.

I'm gonna beat it.

You don't believe it?

I don't need it.

Paranoia.

Shouting for the satin?

Goya, Pig destroyer Something for you?

This will back down.

My daddy is Norman Bates.

You put your hand in my pocket?

You teach me how to hate.

How many people are playing on that tune?

It's so dense.

I ask because I imagine it live.

I think it's six.

There's, like 15 of me.

Yeah.

You know, like, doing little.

Like, I have stuff like this exercise weight and, you know, like, little.

So my hands are in there a lot.

But there's.

There's drums, bass, clavinet.

Were all cut live.

Okay.

Yeah.

I should have asked it more that way because I can only imagine it live.

It's just so glued together.

So that.

Yeah, the.

The rhythm section, that was one take in the studio, and they just kind of played along to my guide track, which most of my demo is still.

Still in the.

In the song.

So I just cut, like, a framework to a click track and they learned it and.

And shredded it.

I tried to learn it this morning.

Oh, yeah.

Tried to do a one take on it.

I would have.

You would have been disappointed.

I missed a lot of turnarounds and stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, these.

These guys, they took notes and, you know, they were.

They were working off the page.

But it was like there was a moment when I had him pull it up, and I was like, this is what's next.

And we had just done another song that the keyboard player wrote.

That is super complicated, too.

So, yeah, I wore them out that day.

They definitely had the deer in the headlights kind of thing on that first playback in the studio, but within a couple hours, we had it together.

It was a good day.

Yeah.

And it has that magic where, you know, as I said, I sat down just trying to rip through it.

I consciously tried not to.

You know, when I'm going to do an interview, I don't want to pick a song apart technically, as A drummer.

But I did it this morning and I was like, fuck.

It has that magic where it is kind of complicated, but it.

If you just listen to it, enjoy the music.

It doesn't sound complicated at all.

Yeah, yeah.

The thing that makes this complicated are just like idiosyncratic decisions in like, what.

When things are going to happen, how many times things happen.

And that.

That's kind of the thing with, with White Denim's music is it's.

It sounds complicated because there's like, you know, I don't.

I again, I don't want to sound like an asshole.

Like, I don't have, like, I don't have proper training.

I just like, I think that this should happen three times here and then seven times here.

And then when the, the, you know, the, the act in, they're just kind of like, all right, dude.

And then more actual musicians hear it and they're like, wow, this is insane.

This is like Prague music.

But to me it's like folk music.

It's like a weird piece of folk art.

I may have asked you this last time, but do you typically write on one instrument?

Do you just sit down with a guitar?

I have to force myself to sit down with a guitar these days.

And lock and key is one of those things.

It's like I haven't, you know, I feel like it had been a while since I've really made like a riff song, you know, and I think that reacting to the reception of the last record, it was like, I need to write a guitar centric riff song.

And so that was a very intentional thing.

But I mean, really, for me, it's.

I've been playing flute really poorly and, and.

And drums really poorly now.

I know how to like quantize things and, and you know, like I. I'm so.

I'll like.

I have this sampler over here that I've been getting really into, a Kai Rack sampler.

That's.

That's old.

And then I have an SP404 loaded with like, you know, kind of shitty 808 samples and other things like that.

So that's.

That's.

I have the most fun with like synths and mixing that with.

With one shots of acoustic drums.

So like making a groove and then, you know, that's kind of how I've been doing it the past couple of years.

And then guitar will be like the last thing.

Like I have it in my mind a lot of times.

Like, what.

What if I just don't play guitar at all on.

On.

On any of these Records.

Like, it's a weird thing.

Like, I love it.

I've spent a lot of time doing it, but, like, the culture around guitar and guitar music and how I fit into it, there's a little rub there, you know, Like, I feel like I. I feel like I have.

There's like kind of a macho, like, you know, Prague guitar guy thing that.

That doesn't really sit that great with me, so I kind of.

I kind of.

I kind of leave it in the corner as long as possible, but for lock and key, you know, I kind of let it hang out.

That's a real riff.

Yeah.

That'S true to that.

I haven't seen White Denim in probably about 15 years.

Do you play guitar and sing when you play live?

I do, yeah.

I still play guitar and sing.

I have a dream to be able to afford to delegate at all and just kind of hold the microphone and play these samplers and be.

You know, like, even have like a.

A little mixer that I could dub.

Dub the players with.

But as it stands, we're still doing clubs and I'm still holding the guitar.

Right.

And do you have some shows coming up?

I do, yeah.

I have.

I have a bunch of shows coming together there.

There's only like 10.

10 announced, but, yeah, we're looking at a lap of the States again and over the summer and then doing European run in the fall, which.

All right, we'll see us hopefully in Spain, which I've never really spent any time there.

And, you know, the.

The statistics say that people listen to White Denim in Spain, and I need to get.

All right, so England, too, I'm assuming.

I think the English like White Denim, right?

Yeah, the English.

That's our.

That's kind of our.

Our anchor.

That's.

It keeps me.

My connection with the.

With the Brits.

Keeps me in the game, for sure.

Not your bread and butter, but your crumpets and some sort of spread.

Yeah, yeah, Some sort of weird.

That was terrible.

I knew that was going to be terrible, though.

I can't think of what is that.

Vegemite is like Australia.

I know that that would.

That even makes it even worse.

That's great.

Yeah, the crumpets and Vegemite.

Listen to those Americans make inaccurate jokes.

And what's.

What.

What about the instrumentation for the.

These tunes?

So I'm kind of building the band right now.

I have a meeting with.

With a guitar player that doubles on steel, but it's essentially the same group.

I have Matt Young, who's amazing.

He's like Christopher Crosses and Sailing, dude.

And Eric Johnson.

Do you remember that?

Oh, yeah.

Cliffs of Dover, he plays with those guys.

And so he's just like a UNT kind of shredder dude.

That's been with me for five years.

He's playing drums.

Michael Hunter is the keyboard player.

We're going on, I think, 10 years with him, 11 years with him.

Now, I could be wrong about that.

This kid from Atlanta, Daniel Hyman, is the bass player for the touring group.

And then I'm looking at a guitar player, potentially another keyboard player to cover some of the Mellotron kind of things and.

And also sing.

There's a lot of duets on this record.

There are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I kind of need to not avoid those.

Those tunes, you know?

But generally, I only play like seven.

Seven or eight of the new songs and then kind of lean into catalog for.

For stuff, so.

Right.

But I would like to play some of the duets, so getting another vocalist in the mix is.

Is kind of top.

Top priority right now, too.

I have a production.

A touring production idea.

You don't have to like it at all, but I think man man and White Denim should go on tour together, so you can just share band.

He always has shredders, too.

That doesn't include myself.

I've been a man, but.

Yeah.

Do you know Cyrus Grimani?

Yeah, yeah, he's.

He.

Yeah, he played.

He played a bunch on this record.

They're like two.

Two or three songs that.

That he played on.

He's right up his alley.

Yeah.

Cyrus is crazy.

He's my dog.

Came in to visit.

All right, Sergio.

Yeah.

Look at this dude.

Serge, it's my best friend.

Hey there.

Does he have black and white with curls?

Is that what I'm seeing?

Yeah.

Yeah, we're very matching these days.

Yeah, he's a bernadoodle, all right.

And he's my.

He's my buddy.

I have a golden doodle.

You do?

They're great.

The grooming, though.

Come on.

He looks like a.

He looks like a bear.

Gorilla right now.

And everyone loves that, but it's too much for him.

Yeah, I know.

Good for hugs.

Yeah.

Really good.

All right.

When you get out there, travel safe.

I hope this I hope to see.

I'm gonna be on tour a lot the summer, so maybe I can catch you somewhere outside of being home.

Are you going out with Cold War Kids?

Is that.

Is that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool.

So I hope we see each other on the.

On the road out there.

All right.

So the record comes out April 24th, Bella Union.

Yep.

That's right.

Bella Union, April 24th.

I just started DJing again and I did 45s recently.

And is there any 45s coming out?

7 inch singles with this sucker?

No, I don't think so.

That would be cool.

You want one?

A 45 of this song?

Yeah.

Okay.

I'll see if I can.

I'll see if I can do it.

I also have like a.

A cover of Set it Off by Strafe that I've been working on.

Really?

Yeah, that would be really.

It might have to be a 10 inch though, but yeah, you.

Are you strict 45?

No, I'm not.

No.

I could do a radio edit for it, but I've developed a relationship with this pressing plan up the street, so I might be able to do a short, short run.

I love 7 inches, but I don't.

I mean, it's.

It's such a weight as.

As like a band trying to sell records.

Like, nobody buys them except for.

I know I don't.

It's.

Yeah, it's really strange.

And the other interesting thing about them is that they.

There's such.

It's so diverse.

Like, some of them sound so good and they're so loud.

Like, I have this creation 45 that is just blows every time I play it.

People just walk them in, whether they know it or not.

They're like, why does that sound so good?

And then some don't sound so good, but there's such a diversity in the way they sound.

It's interesting.

And in my memory when I'm DJing, I put the ones that don't sound so hot, they don't make it.

I feel like this tune would really kill it.

Yeah, I. I have a. I've made a few 7 inches that sound absolutely awful.

Like, just too loud.

I made a lot needles.

Yeah, it's tricky.

Yeah.

All right, man, well, it was great to talk to you again.

And I'll send yourself your two timer silk jacket over.

I look forward to that.

All right.

I like salmon.

Salmon is my favorite color.

Okay.

Inside or out?

Both inside.

Because I kind of.

You want to do a turquoise inside, salmon outside?

Oh, wow.

I like that.

Yes.

Reversible, maybe.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, man.

All right.

Take care of yourself.

See you then.

Bye.

You too.

Norman Bates.

You put your hand in my pocket?

You teach me how to hate when I cried he babe the day he stalked away now I burn meat, babe These tears are here to save.

I'm on the lock and keep, baby hey.

On the lock I can't keep it safe.

Ask me how I'm doing.

I'm fantastic, man.

I'm fantastic, man.

You know how I'm doing.

I'm a fantastic man.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah.