1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker A: Everybody, welcome to this episode of Baggage. 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,760 And with me is Eric Shaw and Ryan Connor. 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:11,120 And on this episode, backed by popular demand, is another air traffic controller. 4 00:00:11,120 --> 00:00:16,880 We had an air traffic controller many moons ago, and it was one of our more popular 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:21,320 episodes, and a lot of people had questions that they wanted answered on a future 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:23,120 episode. So here we are. 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,040 Welcome our guest, Landon. 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,880 And before I go into his resume, I'm gonna let him do it himself. 9 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,320 But first of all, Landon, welcome to the podcast. 10 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:32,380 Thank you for joining us. 11 00:00:32,380 --> 00:00:34,060 Speaker B: Thank you. I appreciate you having me on here. 12 00:00:34,060 --> 00:00:38,340 I appreciate the opportunity to represent air traffic controllers in general, I 13 00:00:38,340 --> 00:00:38,700 guess. 14 00:00:38,860 --> 00:00:42,460 Speaker A: Well, a big thing from the last episode was experience. 15 00:00:42,540 --> 00:00:45,340 They wanted to hear from somebody that had a wealth of experience. 16 00:00:45,820 --> 00:00:48,780 And why don't you tell us about that? How long have you been involved with air 17 00:00:48,780 --> 00:00:49,580 traffic controlling? 18 00:00:49,740 --> 00:00:52,380 Speaker B: I've been working for the FAA for over 15 years now. 19 00:00:52,700 --> 00:00:56,420 Started a long time ago. I've worked in multiple facilities, multiple different 20 00:00:56,420 --> 00:00:59,100 types of facilities. I've lived in multiple states now. 21 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,240 I am currently vice president of the local union here. 22 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,280 I have been president of the local union here. 23 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,440 So I've been heavily involved in both the union side of it. 24 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,480 I have amazing best friends in management. 25 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,360 I know that sounds crazy to hear, but I do. 26 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,000 And then I have. I've met just as many people in management that I hate just as 27 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,480 much, and I've got amazing best friends in the union, and I've got the same on the 28 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,120 other side of that. So, you know, I've been involved with a lot of people. 29 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,100 I know a lot of people in general, you meet a lot of people and everybody kind of 30 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:33,220 moves around and, you know, I'm probably no more than one or two or three people 31 00:01:33,220 --> 00:01:35,380 removed from anybody in the agency at some point. 32 00:01:35,380 --> 00:01:39,900 So there's a lot of us, you know, 12,000 or so, I think it was, or something. 33 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:44,260 I'd have to look up statistics. I'm not great with numbers, but in reference, it's 34 00:01:44,260 --> 00:01:47,020 pretty crazy that almost everybody knows everybody in some capacity. 35 00:01:47,020 --> 00:01:48,860 Speaker C: I want to lead with kind of a. 36 00:01:49,020 --> 00:01:54,630 I don't want to say a bold question, but just why has it been so hard for us to get 37 00:01:54,630 --> 00:01:58,990 an air traffic controller? And why generally, are air traffic controllers reluctant 38 00:01:58,990 --> 00:02:01,790 to talk to anyone in the kind of media? 39 00:02:02,190 --> 00:02:05,750 Speaker B: I don't want to speak out of turn. I'd have to look up the exact specifics on it. 40 00:02:05,750 --> 00:02:09,950 But in general, all of my First Amendment speech rights are not quite protected 41 00:02:09,950 --> 00:02:11,710 anymore, you know, more or less. 42 00:02:11,710 --> 00:02:13,550 I can't paint the agency in a bad light. 43 00:02:13,710 --> 00:02:16,230 You know, I do have a security clearance, but I don't. 44 00:02:16,230 --> 00:02:19,150 I don't know anything crazy. So if you want to ask about aliens or something, I 45 00:02:19,150 --> 00:02:20,910 don't know anything like that. So you don't have to worry about that. 46 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker A: All right. That's the episode. I know. 47 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker D: God damn it. I was gonna hold those questions till the end. 48 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker B: Yeah, that's. That's. I feel like I get that all the time. 49 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,120 Oh, have you ever seen, you know, stuff like that? 50 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,960 Myself and the others in my profession, it's funny, we do a, you know, we talk. 51 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,040 That's what we do for a living, is talk. 52 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,960 And surprisingly, I don't really enjoy talking that much. 53 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,320 I know that sounds crazy, but we kind of let our union elected representatives talk 54 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,280 first for the most part. We're not super big on getting involved in the media. 55 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,280 Like I said, not all of our first First Amendment rights, as far as speech 56 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:52,920 protection is always protected. 57 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,880 So, you know, you just don't want to get into a messy situation. 58 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:57,720 You don't want to say something. 59 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,080 Especially with the current administration and some way some things are going, 60 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,960 nobody wants to say anything and put themselves out there too much. 61 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,960 The reason I do, I guess I'm just not scared, to be quite honest with you. 62 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:14,920 I heard your last podcast and nothing to offense to Casey or whoever that was, I 63 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:18,670 believe on there, but I felt it was a little bit of a misrepresentation of me and my 64 00:03:18,670 --> 00:03:21,430 career and the professional people that I work with every day. 65 00:03:21,590 --> 00:03:24,590 I did hear your follow up as well to that, and I really appreciate that you answered 66 00:03:24,590 --> 00:03:27,270 some more questions. You kind of went into depth a little bit more about some of the 67 00:03:27,270 --> 00:03:29,510 things that were said. The union is not perfect. 68 00:03:29,590 --> 00:03:33,030 Management is not perfect. I don't want to, you know, put that out there and be like 69 00:03:33,030 --> 00:03:35,830 that. I'm one side or the other. But they both have their faults. 70 00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:40,350 They both had their pros, and I feel like that individual is a little bit more jaded 71 00:03:40,350 --> 00:03:41,030 than needed to be. 72 00:03:41,110 --> 00:03:44,630 Speaker A: And let me point out something from a legal point of view, people don't know this, 73 00:03:44,630 --> 00:03:47,820 but anybody in the military would know this, that everyone thinks, you know, free 74 00:03:48,050 --> 00:03:50,370 speech. No one can infringe your ability to speak out. 75 00:03:51,010 --> 00:03:54,170 That's not necessarily true. When you're an employee of the federal government, they 76 00:03:54,170 --> 00:03:57,850 can do whatever they want. You know, they set the rules on free speech and they can 77 00:03:57,850 --> 00:03:59,810 also limit what you have to say. 78 00:03:59,810 --> 00:04:02,890 So you being here today, this is you as an individual. 79 00:04:02,890 --> 00:04:05,970 You're not representing the union, you're not representing air traffic controllers. 80 00:04:05,970 --> 00:04:08,210 All over the country. It's your personal experience. 81 00:04:08,370 --> 00:04:09,290 So let's make that clear. 82 00:04:09,290 --> 00:04:09,810 Speaker B: About what? 83 00:04:09,810 --> 00:04:11,730 Speaker A: I think that's basically what you said and what. 84 00:04:11,970 --> 00:04:14,650 How we're viewing your answers in any way. 85 00:04:14,650 --> 00:04:18,440 So what kind of things? Yeah, of course, you said that he was. 86 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,320 His. His point of view was from management. 87 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,640 What kind of things did you have a dis. 88 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:25,960 Different experience of? 89 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's been like seven months since I've heard the podcast, so you. 90 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,840 I'd have to, like. I know at the. 91 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:33,359 When I listened to it at the time, I was very like, I don't. 92 00:04:33,359 --> 00:04:34,920 This guy, I don't know what he's talking about. 93 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,320 Not that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but, like, I don't agree with a 94 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:37,960 lot of his points. 95 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker D: Well, I remember a lot because one of my brothers has worked for the FAA for 25 96 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:42,680 years. 97 00:04:44,710 --> 00:04:49,950 He was just basically saying if he ever did the job again, it would not be an FAA 98 00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:54,150 job. He said he would do military, and that's about it, because he was. 99 00:04:54,230 --> 00:04:57,870 He was talking about how the unions mess everything up and the. 100 00:04:57,870 --> 00:04:59,990 The way that they manipulate hours. 101 00:05:00,630 --> 00:05:03,110 Speaker B: Yeah, that's ringing. Yes, that's ringing a bell a little bit. 102 00:05:03,110 --> 00:05:03,310 Speaker D: Yeah. 103 00:05:03,310 --> 00:05:06,190 Speaker B: Yep. I know there was a particular comment he made something about. 104 00:05:06,190 --> 00:05:08,750 And I, like I said, I don't want to throw somebody under the bus too much, but there 105 00:05:08,750 --> 00:05:12,580 was something about they having to take somebody off the boards because they have to 106 00:05:12,580 --> 00:05:15,540 be a representation and they're taking somebody away from the. 107 00:05:15,780 --> 00:05:17,660 Yes, I mean, I guess that is true. 108 00:05:17,660 --> 00:05:20,020 I work, you know, the boards. 109 00:05:20,020 --> 00:05:23,700 That's just like a terminology as far as, like, I work side by side with everybody 110 00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:26,780 that I represent as their vice president and when I represented them as the 111 00:05:26,780 --> 00:05:30,660 president. So, yes, there are opportunities where I have to take an hour outside of 112 00:05:30,660 --> 00:05:32,820 my day to go deal with management or whatever else. 113 00:05:32,820 --> 00:05:37,540 That doesn't mean that I'm so far removed from the operation that I'm not there with 114 00:05:37,540 --> 00:05:41,480 them or represented them in the correct light or that I'm even, you know, know, some 115 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,920 type of management lackey or something, pulling a union scam. 116 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,720 Truth of it is, is that, like I said, he made the comment of that it was like acting 117 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,240 like that being a union representative was just taken away from everybody. 118 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,520 And I just don't think that's quite the case everywhere. 119 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,400 He was in what was colloquially called a black hole facility, Grand Canyon, 120 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,680 obviously, as you can imagine, is probably very difficult to staff. 121 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,600 It's not probably. I'm sorry, it is difficult to staff has always been difficult to 122 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,480 staff and will continue to be difficult to staff just because of how it is. 123 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker A: Right? 124 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,070 Speaker B: You only make so much money over there, and then you're talking about, you're like 125 00:06:11,070 --> 00:06:13,830 an hour away from civilization. You're over there working this tower. 126 00:06:13,830 --> 00:06:15,630 They've got FAA approved housing over there. 127 00:06:15,630 --> 00:06:18,510 It's kind of a very weird predicament over there. 128 00:06:18,510 --> 00:06:21,430 For the most part, nobody's there unless they want to be there. 129 00:06:21,590 --> 00:06:25,110 There are some individuals that the only opportunity they get is to go there, and 130 00:06:25,110 --> 00:06:27,390 that may be possibly where some of the jadedness comes from. 131 00:06:27,390 --> 00:06:28,950 It's like, hey, here's your shot. 132 00:06:28,950 --> 00:06:32,750 This is what you got in the fa. Tough titty, if you don't like it kind of situation, 133 00:06:32,750 --> 00:06:36,750 unfortunately, because the way of our, our hiring and things go, a lot of people are 134 00:06:36,750 --> 00:06:40,440 placed in locations they don't want to be, and that's just kind of how that happens. 135 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,600 And it really sucks sometimes, and I really hope that we can kind of open those 136 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,760 things up. But of course, obviously, it all comes back to staffing, right? 137 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,240 The FAA wants to place you where they want to place you. 138 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,240 They are the. They are the boss. 139 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:52,960 They say, hey, we want a body here. 140 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,720 We put a body here. We don't care that you grew up over here in Florida and you 141 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,680 don't want to live in California or whatever else. 142 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,160 Too bad. This is your opportunity to go here 143 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker D: just based on need and who's available at the time or. 144 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:06,680 Or is it random? How do they do that? 145 00:07:07,350 --> 00:07:10,910 Speaker B: Well, if you were to go back, probably statistics and data, and you dig into it, I'm 146 00:07:10,910 --> 00:07:13,510 sure there's like a need and whatever else that's indicated. 147 00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:16,310 But the truth of it is it feels incredibly random, right? 148 00:07:16,310 --> 00:07:19,310 And the system and the status quo has changed over the years. 149 00:07:19,310 --> 00:07:22,909 You know, when I got hired 15 years ago, initially it was hired for the FA. 150 00:07:22,909 --> 00:07:25,670 We were picking states back then, hey, do you want to be in this state, this state, 151 00:07:25,670 --> 00:07:27,910 this state, you know, three, four states or something like that. 152 00:07:28,070 --> 00:07:32,750 That process has changed dramatically over and over again to try and do something 153 00:07:32,750 --> 00:07:36,470 differently. But once again, even when I picked three states back in the day, I had 154 00:07:36,470 --> 00:07:40,650 no clue what, what part of the state, what facility, type of facility where I would 155 00:07:40,650 --> 00:07:44,570 be at. It was just a, you know, a shotgun, hey, I guess I'll be in this general 156 00:07:44,570 --> 00:07:46,610 region because I don't know any better. 157 00:07:46,610 --> 00:07:50,210 You know, I grew up over here in Tennessee, so let me shoot for something in this 158 00:07:50,210 --> 00:07:53,930 general area. And, you know, that's kind of what, you know, what happened what 159 00:07:53,930 --> 00:07:55,970 played out, I guess. And that's what plays out for most people. 160 00:07:55,970 --> 00:07:59,970 But that's not always the case. You know, some individuals go planning to go to an 161 00:07:59,970 --> 00:08:04,210 air traffic control center and that process in general, since there's only like 12 162 00:08:04,210 --> 00:08:06,010 of them really, they're showing up there. 163 00:08:06,010 --> 00:08:09,920 They're, they're participating in the classwork at Oklahoma and then they're getting 164 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,960 graded and they're really just getting to choose based off seniority of how well you 165 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,560 did in the class. And honestly, it literally may come down to a fraction of a point 166 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,920 that the guy ahead of you was able to pick Atlanta center and that was the only one 167 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,800 slot there. And then you had to pick something else. 168 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,360 You know, like, it's crazy. 169 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,240 And at the end of it they've been opportunities where it's like, hey, the top seven, 170 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,000 eight people get their choice. The bottom three don't get their choice. 171 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,929 If you guys don't pick Oakland center by the top seven, the bottom three is going 172 00:08:36,929 --> 00:08:38,649 Oakland Center. You know, things like that happen. 173 00:08:38,889 --> 00:08:40,969 It's been kind of a crappy setup for a really long time. 174 00:08:40,969 --> 00:08:43,889 It's probably going to continue that way because once again there's just not enough 175 00:08:43,889 --> 00:08:44,889 bodies go around. 176 00:08:45,049 --> 00:08:49,288 Speaker C: Tell me about just like the day to day of your, your job because I find like the air 177 00:08:49,288 --> 00:08:51,209 traffic controller thing must be one of the most. 178 00:08:51,449 --> 00:08:55,369 You have more responsibility than just about anyone else out there on the planet 179 00:08:55,529 --> 00:09:00,289 where just your personal decisions make the difference in so many, so many other 180 00:09:00,289 --> 00:09:03,550 people's lives. Can you please, you know, just kind of walk me through your day to 181 00:09:03,550 --> 00:09:03,830 day? 182 00:09:04,070 --> 00:09:08,030 Speaker B: It's, it's an odd environment, you know, you kind of just show up and although I do 183 00:09:08,030 --> 00:09:12,630 the exact same thing, more or less the everyday, I say the pretty much the same 184 00:09:12,630 --> 00:09:14,150 words in some order. 185 00:09:14,390 --> 00:09:19,150 I talk to relatively the same amount of aircraft, not necessarily just depends on 186 00:09:19,150 --> 00:09:22,150 how busy it is that day, but the same types of aircraft. 187 00:09:22,470 --> 00:09:26,150 This particular American flight, I'm going to see it two, three times a day because 188 00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:30,070 it flies in to the same airport and out of the same airport a couple times a day, 189 00:09:30,150 --> 00:09:33,110 you know. And so I'm going to do a lot of those things over and over again. 190 00:09:33,110 --> 00:09:35,130 I'm going to clearance is the same every day. 191 00:09:35,130 --> 00:09:38,610 I'm going to say a lot of this stuff. My words are going to be the same and kind of 192 00:09:38,610 --> 00:09:43,890 the work volume itself as far as what actually happens is relatively the same every 193 00:09:43,890 --> 00:09:44,450 single day. 194 00:09:44,770 --> 00:09:49,010 Speaker C: How many, how many airplanes do you think you kind of manage per day? 195 00:09:49,090 --> 00:09:52,690 Speaker B: The truth is here where I work At Great Lakes Approach, we deal with a lot of 196 00:09:53,090 --> 00:09:57,610 smaller aircraft. So even though you may be at a larger facility, like a larger 197 00:09:57,610 --> 00:10:00,050 tower, right. You're going to be clearing for takeoff. 198 00:10:00,050 --> 00:10:03,210 Clearing, clearing the land. The same guys all day, every day. 199 00:10:03,290 --> 00:10:04,890 I'm working at the Great Lakes approach. 200 00:10:04,890 --> 00:10:07,810 It's a very large consolidated tracon. 201 00:10:07,810 --> 00:10:11,730 And because of that, we deal with a lot of airspace below 10, we're 10,000 and 202 00:10:11,730 --> 00:10:13,850 below, and we deal with a lot of smaller aircraft. 203 00:10:14,010 --> 00:10:18,650 So all those guys that got to go out and eventually get enough time and hours to fly 204 00:10:18,650 --> 00:10:22,570 those 737s and those regional jets that you get on and go from point A to point B, 205 00:10:22,570 --> 00:10:26,530 they got to start in a little itty bitty piece of aluminum that goes through the air 206 00:10:26,530 --> 00:10:29,320 with one engine on it, right? And they got to build their time up. 207 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,000 Those are the type of people that I'm mainly talking to day in and day out. 208 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,920 And you have to imagine that every single new semester of college, there's a whole 209 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,080 new group of people wanting to learn how to be a pilot. 210 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,680 So it's a. Every, you know, it's a constant, ever changing kind of thing with the 211 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:48,040 type of people and the type of operations that I'm doing every single day. 212 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,240 Like I said, it's the same thing, but it's, you know, it's never dull. 213 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:56,190 It's. Even though I may talk to the same aircraft in the same spot every day two or 214 00:10:56,190 --> 00:10:59,470 three times, it's never going to play out the same way because there's always going 215 00:10:59,470 --> 00:11:01,550 to be a different piece of traffic in the way. 216 00:11:01,550 --> 00:11:04,150 Maybe they were later today, maybe they were earlier today. 217 00:11:04,310 --> 00:11:06,390 Maybe we're on a different flow for our Runway. 218 00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:10,110 So I'm going to give the same instructions to get them from point A to point B, but 219 00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:13,870 the order I'm going to give them in and how that's going to flow out particularly is 220 00:11:13,870 --> 00:11:15,590 not always the exact same case for 221 00:11:15,590 --> 00:11:19,110 Speaker C: the average air traffic control. It's like, how many people's lives a day do they 222 00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:19,430 touch? 223 00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:24,710 Speaker B: Like, is it. I couldn't imagine, you know, thousands or tens of thousands. 224 00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:27,730 And, you know, and these guys at these large air traffic control centers, you know, 225 00:11:27,730 --> 00:11:30,570 I mean, there's so many that they're high and buying, you know, I mean, it's like 226 00:11:30,570 --> 00:11:33,370 goes from one spot of the airspace to another, goes the next guy. 227 00:11:33,370 --> 00:11:37,130 And I can't even imagine how many people that they actually service in a 228 00:11:37,130 --> 00:11:40,130 Speaker C: general day trying to not make a joke about servicing people. 229 00:11:40,770 --> 00:11:43,330 Speaker B: When I said it, I was like, maybe that was the best phraseology. 230 00:11:43,410 --> 00:11:45,490 Speaker D: But sorry, not serving, blowing. 231 00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:47,890 Speaker B: Well, we have our internal terminology. 232 00:11:47,970 --> 00:11:48,930 Right, Right. 233 00:11:50,290 --> 00:11:51,570 Speaker C: It's an industry term. 234 00:11:52,530 --> 00:11:54,210 Speaker A: Let me ask you about recent news. 235 00:11:54,210 --> 00:11:56,590 There's been some. I don't know if it's criticism. 236 00:11:56,590 --> 00:11:58,630 It depends on the outlet and depends on the reporting. 237 00:11:58,630 --> 00:12:03,310 But there have been incidents, air traffic, incidents of crashes. 238 00:12:03,790 --> 00:12:06,990 It seems like every single time the first thing they look at is the human error in 239 00:12:06,990 --> 00:12:10,510 the tower. What's your thoughts on some of the most recent stories and is there 240 00:12:10,510 --> 00:12:13,390 anyone that particularly stands out as troubling to you? 241 00:12:13,550 --> 00:12:17,910 Speaker B: You know, obviously, like the two most recent ones in general are obviously dca a 242 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:19,870 little over a year ago, I think it was at this point. 243 00:12:19,870 --> 00:12:23,260 And then LaGuardia was just several months back, I guess at this point. 244 00:12:23,260 --> 00:12:25,220 But absolutely insane to me. 245 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:30,380 I've been working for a little over 15 years now and I may have just encountered two 246 00:12:30,380 --> 00:12:35,500 of some of the worst real crashes and fatalities and issues that have happened at 247 00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:39,180 least in my entire career. You know, I don't think I've seen anything to this 248 00:12:39,180 --> 00:12:41,140 extent, especially back to back like this. 249 00:12:41,140 --> 00:12:45,500 Absolutely insane and felt horrible for the situations and all that involved the 250 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:48,380 human element, obviously, right. There, of course there's a human element. 251 00:12:48,380 --> 00:12:51,020 Right. People are always going to be there and involved. 252 00:12:51,020 --> 00:12:53,100 Technology is obviously heavily involved. 253 00:12:53,420 --> 00:12:59,620 Speaker A: Before we get into it, LaGuardia was a collision that resulted in fatalities in 254 00:12:59,620 --> 00:13:01,980 which I'm trying to best describe it. 255 00:13:01,980 --> 00:13:05,579 Overlapping emergencies were happening, radio traffic getting stepped on. 256 00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:11,660 And also part of it was personnel, air traffic controllers shouldering some of the 257 00:13:11,660 --> 00:13:15,500 blame during the initial investigation. I think NTSB is probably still has it under 258 00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:19,460 investigation. But from what you've seen reported about that, what are your thoughts 259 00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:23,820 and feelings about the comments the media has made on aircraft traffic controllers 260 00:13:23,820 --> 00:13:26,100 regarding that incident, the laguardian one? 261 00:13:26,180 --> 00:13:29,340 Speaker B: When you go back and you look at the things, some sometimes you're. 262 00:13:29,340 --> 00:13:33,300 You're reading these NTSB reports and I think they do a great job for the most part. 263 00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:37,660 But sometimes when you read it out of context, I think it can put a bad light on 264 00:13:37,660 --> 00:13:40,660 some of us individually. Like obviously there's a human element there, but these 265 00:13:40,660 --> 00:13:42,220 guys do an amazing job every day. 266 00:13:42,220 --> 00:13:45,180 And I'm sure that the guys at LaGuardia, I don't know their operations, right. 267 00:13:45,180 --> 00:13:48,370 You have to imagine every single facility, their operations are completely 268 00:13:48,370 --> 00:13:51,770 different. How they run things in general are different, even though some of the, a 269 00:13:51,770 --> 00:13:53,450 lot of the words are going to say are going to be the same. 270 00:13:53,850 --> 00:13:58,730 How that facility runs is a total 180 from how any other facility Runs. 271 00:13:58,730 --> 00:14:01,050 So it's hard for me to give a full like answer. 272 00:14:01,130 --> 00:14:05,770 But in general, their operations, as far as I know that was a standard operation 273 00:14:05,850 --> 00:14:09,730 running up there. In general, how they run things the way that he was running 274 00:14:09,730 --> 00:14:13,410 things, things escalated and whatever else ended up happening, as far as it got out 275 00:14:13,410 --> 00:14:15,970 of hand, he didn't get help in time or whatever it was. 276 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:17,930 I'm not quite a hundred percent sure on. 277 00:14:18,450 --> 00:14:22,330 I don't know if the media is saying that just we're at fault and we're lazy and 278 00:14:22,330 --> 00:14:26,810 we're, or whatever. I don't know if that's the portrayer or that we just, we all 279 00:14:26,810 --> 00:14:29,490 come in and just go home early every day because that's just not true either. 280 00:14:29,970 --> 00:14:35,170 Speaker D: The way I've always interpreted the media reports on these aren't like, oh, this air 281 00:14:35,170 --> 00:14:39,410 traffic controller sucks. It's like, oh, they're so understaffed like that. 282 00:14:39,490 --> 00:14:46,320 They make it sound like every airport has one guy and he's working a 60 hour 283 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,760 shift and he has to put his kids to bed and cook dinner while he's, you know, 284 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,480 bringing in 60 flights an hour. 285 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,440 And, and so it always sounds like it's not their fault, but they make it sound like 286 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:03,840 everyone is so understaffed and like just completely swamped in the work. 287 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,440 Like how true is that? 288 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker B: We're understaffed, underpaid and underappreciated and that hasn't changed in 289 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,470 forever. And although there are many instances, right. 290 00:15:13,470 --> 00:15:15,550 Where a facility will run operations. 291 00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:21,390 Let's take it back a notch. Every facility is running their operations understaffed. 292 00:15:21,550 --> 00:15:25,070 Ideally, every single facility should have way more bodies. 293 00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:26,830 They just don't. They never have. 294 00:15:26,909 --> 00:15:28,990 And as far as I know they probably never will. 295 00:15:29,230 --> 00:15:31,230 And really over time, right. 296 00:15:31,230 --> 00:15:34,190 If you continue to run the operation with this set number. 297 00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:35,790 Well, it works really. 298 00:15:36,030 --> 00:15:40,890 We should have blank more in case or this many extra. 299 00:15:40,890 --> 00:15:43,370 You know, would be nice if we had that opportunity. 300 00:15:43,610 --> 00:15:46,570 But what we have works, has worked, right. 301 00:15:46,570 --> 00:15:48,490 Until we reached a boiling point, obviously. 302 00:15:48,490 --> 00:15:52,290 Right. Of some kind. So really it's, it's, I think everybody has heard the phrase 303 00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:53,930 like laws are written in blood. 304 00:15:53,930 --> 00:15:57,330 Right. Like things have to escalate to a point, unfortunately, before things and 305 00:15:57,330 --> 00:16:00,650 rules change. And I think over time that every facility has been working 306 00:16:00,650 --> 00:16:05,350 understaffed. Yes. Not every, I wouldn't, I don't want to paint the picture of every 307 00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:11,950 single air traffic controller in the FAA is working 10 hour days, is, you know, 60 308 00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:14,150 hours a week, you know, six days a week. 309 00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:17,710 Not every single facility is at that point are they going to get there, 310 00:16:18,990 --> 00:16:23,030 we continue to encroach upon it. It feels like there are too many that are doing 311 00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:25,830 that and there are too many that are like halfway there. 312 00:16:25,830 --> 00:16:28,550 Right. There's too many of them already. They're doing six days a week. 313 00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:32,190 They may not be held over two hours every day, but they're already doing six days a 314 00:16:32,190 --> 00:16:33,910 week or they're doing six days every other week. 315 00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:37,190 I mean, that's just too much. Right? You're talking already I would have only had 316 00:16:37,190 --> 00:16:39,230 eight days off in a. In a month, almost. 317 00:16:39,230 --> 00:16:42,150 Nobody's getting eight days or. Sorry, yeah, eight days off in a month. 318 00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:42,350 Speaker A: Right. 319 00:16:42,350 --> 00:16:43,950 Speaker B: They're talking four weeks, give or take. 320 00:16:44,030 --> 00:16:45,590 Nobody's getting that for the most part. 321 00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:49,390 Everybody's getting overtime of some kind within the month, at least, you know, one 322 00:16:49,390 --> 00:16:52,310 to three times, I would say. Is everybody getting 10 hour days? 323 00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:56,720 Not necessarily, but it's definitely happening more than it should, ideally. 324 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,120 You know, I would say if LaGuardia had staffing, there would have been three, four 325 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,560 people up there, even if they didn't have the necessity for the traffic for it. 326 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,720 You know what I mean? You staff to the traffic. 327 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,280 But then also there's another caveat of that is how much do you staff to ensure that 328 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,640 the traffic doesn't outpace you at some point when you can't anticipate it? 329 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:16,160 Kind of deal. 330 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker A: Right. And I think that's just that there's so many things that you don't know about 331 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:24,080 the story. So when you're talking about LaGuarda and DCA and a lot of things you 332 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,560 said reminds me of the military, because I was in aviation, in the military. 333 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,320 And I know there's a lot of corollaries where one of the things is, you know, the 334 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:37,120 NATOPS manual, which is the manual for each individual aircraft, it's written in 335 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:40,040 blood because somebody screws up and then you make adjustments. 336 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,120 Right. And that's how you end up with the air traffic procedures that you do to 337 00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:50,600 prevent things from happening. But when you have a scenario and a work schedule such 338 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:56,040 that the, the extreme is the new normal, where people are working more than they 339 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,440 should, more days than they should, then you run into a scenario where you get 340 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,760 pretty good at managing with less because things are working smoothly, very highly 341 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,120 high level of professionalism so that you able to do that so that you get 342 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:13,440 comfortable with it. So something like LaGuardia, where somebody wants to leave a 343 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,560 little bit early, things are running smooth. 344 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,400 It's happened a hundred times before, probably. 345 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,960 Absolutely. We want to help each other out. 346 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,320 We're Human beings. Somebody takes off early, and then, from what I understand, 347 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,680 LaGuardia, there were overlapping emergencies and more people probably would have 348 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,000 made a difference. But, you know, this time it went wrong because in so many 349 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,760 aircraft mishaps, it's not something broke. 350 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,560 It's not one person forgot to do this one thing. 351 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:43,490 It is a domino effect of things went wrong and they all coalesced at the same time 352 00:18:43,890 --> 00:18:45,090 and it broke bad. 353 00:18:45,330 --> 00:18:49,890 Speaker B: Yeah. Swiss cheese model is something that we've phrased before, you know, but 354 00:18:50,050 --> 00:18:50,850 similar thing 355 00:18:51,170 --> 00:18:55,770 Speaker A: in the DCA crash is that you have the army helicopters, the Reagan National. 356 00:18:55,770 --> 00:18:59,410 You have the army helicopter passing through basically the. 357 00:18:59,810 --> 00:19:02,850 And the landing path of the commercial airlines. 358 00:19:03,010 --> 00:19:08,510 To me, that always sounded like pilot error from the army pilots and the army crew's 359 00:19:08,510 --> 00:19:12,790 point of view, because you're literally traveling through a landing path. 360 00:19:12,870 --> 00:19:16,550 But what some of the early reports I saw were like, why did the air traffic 361 00:19:16,550 --> 00:19:18,790 controllers stop that? And like, it really. 362 00:19:19,030 --> 00:19:25,150 The public doesn't understand how quickly things move, how you can talk and you can 363 00:19:25,150 --> 00:19:30,110 tell people, but if they're in close proximity and Reagan is a very, very, very 364 00:19:30,110 --> 00:19:32,870 tight airspace, like, it's kind of crazy. 365 00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:34,990 Speaker D: Brian Regan had a joke about it. 366 00:19:34,990 --> 00:19:39,330 He said it's like landing. A landing there feels like a on dart, like you just 367 00:19:40,610 --> 00:19:41,490 stick in the ground. 368 00:19:41,730 --> 00:19:42,650 Speaker A: It's a middle of everything. 369 00:19:42,650 --> 00:19:43,890 Speaker D: It's crazy how tight it is. 370 00:19:44,050 --> 00:19:47,570 Speaker A: Right. So a commercial pilot is not going to have time to react. 371 00:19:47,730 --> 00:19:52,250 Speaker C: Talk about those reaction times, these planes and the helicopters going hundreds of 372 00:19:52,250 --> 00:19:57,364 miles of hour. And we think, oh, like, you know, you have minutes or, you know, 20, 373 00:19:57,416 --> 00:20:00,290 30 minutes to react. You have seconds to react. 374 00:20:00,290 --> 00:20:04,790 Those things are covering, you know, multiple miles within, like, just a few seconds 375 00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:07,190 Speaker D: while taking in hazards from every direction. 376 00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:10,310 Speaker A: Right. I think in dca, you have lights everywhere. 377 00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:13,510 Everything's lit up, everything. It's so disorienting. 378 00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:17,830 So I think I brought it up in the last air traffic controller episode where I saw a 379 00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:21,870 really good animation of what it would have looked like from the helicopter's point 380 00:20:21,870 --> 00:20:25,910 of view. You're looking around, there's pin pricks of light everywhere. 381 00:20:26,150 --> 00:20:30,810 And then within like a second, second half, this small one gets real big and it's on 382 00:20:30,810 --> 00:20:35,330 you. Preparation and planning and making sure there's separation is how you prevent 383 00:20:35,330 --> 00:20:39,450 that. But in something like Reagan, where it's so tight, it's. 384 00:20:39,450 --> 00:20:42,330 It's almost a. I hate to say it, but like a disaster waiting to happen. 385 00:20:42,330 --> 00:20:44,610 Those poor people on that. On that aircraft. 386 00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:48,890 Yeah. Passenger aircraft, they had no responsibility, they had no knowledge. 387 00:20:48,890 --> 00:20:51,810 They had no idea what happened. Just a horrible set of circumstances. 388 00:20:52,210 --> 00:20:56,730 Speaker B: Absolutely. You know, and, and at, at minimum that, you know, that jet's going 150 389 00:20:56,730 --> 00:20:58,410 knots, that helicopter's going 150 knots. 390 00:20:58,410 --> 00:21:02,090 You're talking the. Those are both going well over 100 miles or each other. 391 00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:04,490 Air traffic controllers don't determine the rules. 392 00:21:05,370 --> 00:21:10,850 I will control traffic by rolling some dice and reciting words from the Apprentice, 393 00:21:10,850 --> 00:21:12,730 if that's what this administration wants. 394 00:21:12,730 --> 00:21:16,890 You know what I mean? But the truth of it is, is that I run through a 0.65. 395 00:21:17,050 --> 00:21:21,330 It's a giant book, essentially, and those are the rules and regulations that I go 396 00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:25,450 by. In addition to that, each individual facility has its own standard operating 397 00:21:25,450 --> 00:21:29,210 procedures for things in house and letters of agreement for things out of house. 398 00:21:29,710 --> 00:21:33,270 So, you know, I have three different books I go through to control the traffic as 399 00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:36,590 the agency has determined how I should control it in my particular facility. 400 00:21:36,750 --> 00:21:41,950 In regards to dca, that controller using that type of separation is something that 401 00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:44,590 was done consistently all the time. 402 00:21:44,910 --> 00:21:47,310 Doesn't mean it was right, doesn't mean it was the best way. 403 00:21:47,310 --> 00:21:51,790 But you have to imagine if that's how it's worked, if that's how he was trained and 404 00:21:51,790 --> 00:21:54,710 that's how it worked years beforehand, what's the thought process? 405 00:21:54,710 --> 00:22:00,620 And it was not going to work today. All it took was one individual or a few little 406 00:22:00,620 --> 00:22:03,260 things, right. To kind of go astray. 407 00:22:03,260 --> 00:22:06,860 You know, whether that was the helicopter pilot responding incorrectly or saying 408 00:22:06,860 --> 00:22:11,020 like, yeah, I see that, and then not seeing what they said they saw or, you know, 409 00:22:11,020 --> 00:22:11,780 whatever else. 410 00:22:12,099 --> 00:22:18,820 Speaker A: Say that army helicopter was 2, 100ft lower and it missed, but everyone said, oh, my 411 00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:20,860 God, we just realized how close we were. 412 00:22:20,860 --> 00:22:22,410 That was really close. That's. 413 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,680 That's really scary. Sure. The public's never going to hear about that. 414 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,680 And not that it's. It's not a conspiracy. 415 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,400 No one's hiding anything. It's just that that doesn't get reported. 416 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker B: No, no, you, you, yeah, you obviously like. 417 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,040 Right. Once again, you're not going to hear about those things. 418 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:36,720 Like, those things will get reported. 419 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,080 In general, that I'm. And my understanding is the controllers themselves had already 420 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,480 said, hey, some of these routes are a problem. 421 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,920 They need to be looked at. I think they're an issue and it either it was ignored or 422 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,280 is pushed to the side or it was like, we'll get to it later. 423 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,840 Things like that. Separation errors, not always are they looked at in depth like 424 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,800 they should be, that we do have a process to look at them and they should be looked 425 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,200 At. But you know, sometimes it's like, hey, this is, you know, sometimes it just 426 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,720 comes back, oh, if you had said something differently here, then it wouldn't have 427 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,720 been a separation error or this wouldn't have happened. 428 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:07,520 Or this is the route we run every day. 429 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,360 This is how you run this route. You didn't ride it correctly. 430 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,280 If you had done so, then this wouldn't have been a problem. 431 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,200 You know, I don't know this next 432 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,710 Speaker C: question, I want to preface it with, with two points. 433 00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:21,990 One, in almost three years of doing this, we have always tried to be as apolitical 434 00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:26,830 as possible. And B, if you're not comfortable answering this question, I completely 435 00:23:26,830 --> 00:23:33,830 understand. Have you noticed any significant differences in how your day to day goes 436 00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:35,270 with this new administration? 437 00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:39,590 Speaker B: Obviously the crash has resulted in some changes or will probably result in some 438 00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:41,270 more changes than they already have. 439 00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:42,700 Nothing too crazy. 440 00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:44,540 Speaker C: Positive, positive or negative? 441 00:23:45,340 --> 00:23:49,340 Speaker B: Well, the DCA crash resulted in some changes in how we do helicopter separation just 442 00:23:49,340 --> 00:23:52,620 a little bit. Nothing too wild than what we were doing before. 443 00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:55,340 Just some more restrictions on it and when it could be applied. 444 00:23:55,420 --> 00:24:00,020 As far as that visual separation in general in reference to like yeah like my day to 445 00:24:00,020 --> 00:24:04,260 day as far as those things. Other than just watching the news, I don't even know if 446 00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:08,080 it's the news. I feel like other than watching the administration let some comments 447 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,440 go and general bashing I feel like of the individuals I work with. 448 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:18,080 No, like my day to day per se has not quite changed yet a whole lot drastically. 449 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker A: What about the morale of hopeful for changes in the future? 450 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:28,360 Do you feel that other air traffic controllers are still holding that hope or is it 451 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:30,240 getting. Or is it beyond that point? 452 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker B: I think our morale already was a little low anyway to begin with. 453 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,480 Well before the administration that is currently in charge and that's kind of going 454 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,540 back quite a bit. You know. Know I don't know how familiar you are with in general 455 00:24:41,540 --> 00:24:44,940 but we, we've been under the same CBA for quite a while now. 456 00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:46,460 Speaker A: What's a cba? 457 00:24:46,620 --> 00:24:48,620 Speaker B: It's a collective bargain agreement. It's what we. 458 00:24:48,620 --> 00:24:50,380 The slate book is the name of it. It's. 459 00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:51,980 We name them off of colors. 460 00:24:51,980 --> 00:24:54,380 So the one before the slate book was the red book. 461 00:24:54,859 --> 00:24:58,700 But anyway it's our union contract with the administration and so we've been under 462 00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:00,460 that for a long time. 463 00:25:00,460 --> 00:25:00,820 Speaker A: I've. 464 00:25:00,820 --> 00:25:03,340 Speaker B: It's pretty much the only book I've been under. I was under the red book for a few 465 00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:05,180 years when I got in and then we've been on a slate book since. 466 00:25:05,180 --> 00:25:07,350 Speaker A: Cause it's been extended to make that clear. 467 00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:14,550 The agreement between the Union and the FAA has remained relatively 468 00:25:14,550 --> 00:25:16,870 unchanged for approximately 15 years. 469 00:25:16,870 --> 00:25:17,830 Since you've been doing it. 470 00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:20,950 Speaker B: Yeah, like 12ish, something like that, or. 471 00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:23,630 Yeah, I mean, I. Like I said, I had a few years into the red book, and then the 472 00:25:23,630 --> 00:25:25,310 slate book happened pretty quick after I got hired. 473 00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:26,350 I think I'll look at it in 474 00:25:26,350 --> 00:25:30,230 Speaker C: general, but my understanding is this administration in particular has been 475 00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:34,080 particularly unfriendly to public unions. 476 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker B: Well, yeah, there's been a few instances, I believe, where they've tried to shut 477 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,480 some down, essentially, or however you want to phrase that. 478 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,200 I believe several of them have received the rights back their CBAs back through the 479 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,360 courts. But, you know, and that's a battle. 480 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:52,040 Like, do we, you know, obviously, I don't know if we want to get into that battle, 481 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,880 you know, us, our union in general right now, get into that battle with the 482 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,720 administration over getting canceled, if you want to call it that, or whatever. 483 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,120 And then continuing to have to have that fight back to your, like, morale, like, 484 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,260 morale was already low because of some things like that. 485 00:26:05,260 --> 00:26:07,260 Morale's been low because of pay and staffing. 486 00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:11,860 Obviously, it's not getting better, you know, when you are hired into this job. 487 00:26:11,860 --> 00:26:15,500 And I guess the story for Me Personally, over 15 years ago, I didn't know what I 488 00:26:15,500 --> 00:26:17,100 want to do for, you know, a living. 489 00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:20,140 And I was at college, I had no clue what I wanted to do. 490 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:24,100 I, you know, went to this advisor or whatever, you know, write these guys that it's 491 00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:25,940 like, oh, yeah, we'll figure out something for you. 492 00:26:25,940 --> 00:26:27,900 And he had me take this test online. 493 00:26:27,980 --> 00:26:30,420 And it was, you know, it's like stupid questions. 494 00:26:30,420 --> 00:26:33,900 Do you like walking in the woods? Do you enjoy sitting in an office all day? 495 00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:35,580 You know what I mean? Like, do you like animals? 496 00:26:35,580 --> 00:26:37,480 Like, you know, just random crap on there? 497 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,680 And oddly enough, I do this test and I turn it in. 498 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,640 The first thing on the list is air traffic control. 499 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,280 And I, like, I don't know what that is. 500 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,440 What the hell is that? You know, And I'm like, I'm looking into it and I look at the 501 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,920 pay. The Pay says like 150,000 to $250,000 a year. 502 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,080 And I'm like, hell, sign me up. 503 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,040 I don't know what else I'm doing with my life. You know, I've got two years in 504 00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:59,720 college at this point. I don't know what I'm going to do. 505 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,760 I got to pick something, so let's go for it. 506 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:07,290 I just happen to be at a. A college that had a program like that, and I just kind of 507 00:27:07,290 --> 00:27:11,690 fell into it. I was promised $150,000 a year 15 years ago. 508 00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:14,730 I don't make $150,000 a year still, you know, today. 509 00:27:15,050 --> 00:27:16,770 So you have to imagine. 510 00:27:16,770 --> 00:27:20,330 I feel like I'm living. I'm living on false dreams and hopes here a little bit. 511 00:27:20,730 --> 00:27:24,930 When you hear things in the media about, oh, we all make $400,000 a year, that's 512 00:27:24,930 --> 00:27:27,170 nonsense. It's not true. It's not even somewhat true. 513 00:27:27,170 --> 00:27:30,490 You know, we're all capped at the federal pay cap of $220,000 a year. 514 00:27:30,780 --> 00:27:34,380 And almost no controller makes that because you can't get to that. 515 00:27:34,540 --> 00:27:37,940 I don't even know if you can move around enough between small facilities and bigger 516 00:27:37,940 --> 00:27:41,220 facilities to get enough raises to do it, because once again, nobody can move 517 00:27:41,220 --> 00:27:42,860 because we have no staffing. 518 00:27:42,860 --> 00:27:47,260 So you get shotgunned into a place you don't know necessarily want to be at, right, 519 00:27:47,260 --> 00:27:50,100 because you don't know where you're going to go. You're not making the type of money 520 00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:52,980 you believe you should be making. And then when you get there, they're like, hey, by 521 00:27:52,980 --> 00:27:56,940 the way, just so you know, I don't know what you had planned for your life, but you 522 00:27:56,940 --> 00:27:59,790 better make this shit permanent here, because you ain't going nowhere, buddy. 523 00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:01,820 This is it for you. This is your facility. 524 00:28:01,820 --> 00:28:06,220 It's going to be for the next five, seven years before you probably have a chance to 525 00:28:06,220 --> 00:28:10,060 leave. And even then you're, you know, at these smaller facilities, you're fighting 526 00:28:10,060 --> 00:28:14,220 for that slot to leave. That comes up every three to four or five years with another 527 00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:17,060 three, four, five guys that showed up in that same time frame. 528 00:28:17,140 --> 00:28:21,260 The morale obviously comes back to just once again, understaffed, underpaid, and 529 00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:24,940 underappreciated. And underappreciated is a huge thing in the administration right 530 00:28:24,940 --> 00:28:28,550 now. They throw some bones out there, but once in a while I feel like, you know, 531 00:28:28,550 --> 00:28:30,270 talking about things we do, but then every. 532 00:28:30,270 --> 00:28:35,390 Every other tweet or text or whatever I see from Administrator Bedford. 533 00:28:35,390 --> 00:28:38,270 Not necessarily Bedford, but Duffy or somebody else in general. 534 00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:40,910 It just seems like we get a good boy and then we get it. 535 00:28:40,910 --> 00:28:44,270 By the way, this is due to their traffic controller staffing or they're calling in 536 00:28:44,270 --> 00:28:45,750 sick all the time and that not. 537 00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:49,910 Speaker C: If they could have just, you know, canceled Duffy's show and put that budget towards 538 00:28:49,910 --> 00:28:52,910 you guys, that would have been probably a money well spent. 539 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker A: You don't have to comment on that. 540 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker B: I'm curious how Much of his show, is he getting done or done? 541 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,000 I done. 542 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker C: It's done. It was on like YouTube or something for like a hot second. 543 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,440 But it costs like several million dollars. 544 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker D: I was going to ask, has there ever been a time that it was properly staffed where it 545 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,880 was? Because to me, it's like anything that's like a high risk job and high stress. 546 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,280 You kind of want to slightly overstaff. 547 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,680 Right. Just to cover for some things, you know. 548 00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:26,030 Has there ever been a time in the 70s, the 80s? 549 00:29:26,110 --> 00:29:29,030 Like, have you heard of anything like, not the 80s? 550 00:29:29,030 --> 00:29:30,430 Was it ever, like, man, it was sick. 551 00:29:30,430 --> 00:29:33,510 Speaker B: Or the Paco strike, I think, you know, chopped it down quite a bit. 552 00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:37,270 I think it was always bad. But obviously when Reagan fired everybody back after the 553 00:29:37,270 --> 00:29:39,790 Paco strike really hit pretty hard. 554 00:29:40,030 --> 00:29:42,590 And like I said, it's been understaffed the 15 years I was. 555 00:29:42,590 --> 00:29:45,390 I've been in. It's been understaffed the 15 years before I was in. 556 00:29:45,390 --> 00:29:47,270 And I'm sure it'll be understaffed the next 15 years. 557 00:29:47,270 --> 00:29:50,870 You know, the. You'll see data and things come out saying, oh, we hired, you know, 558 00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:55,210 2000 controllers this year, and we hired 2200 or 2300 next year, year and so on and 559 00:29:55,210 --> 00:29:58,490 so forth. That's great. I'm not saying that's wrong and that we shouldn't be doing 560 00:29:58,490 --> 00:30:03,490 that, but you're. You're hiring 2,000 plus to put into a system that's losing, you 561 00:30:03,490 --> 00:30:06,650 know, just as many anyway, so it's still not enough. 562 00:30:06,810 --> 00:30:08,690 It's not enough. It's. It's not going to. 563 00:30:08,690 --> 00:30:10,929 Speaker D: Is DOT just underfunded? 564 00:30:10,929 --> 00:30:15,570 Because that's. It's not like a sexy department when appropriations are happening or 565 00:30:15,570 --> 00:30:17,850 something, or like, you know what I mean? 566 00:30:18,010 --> 00:30:20,210 Speaker B: Yeah. It's weird. Is it. 567 00:30:20,210 --> 00:30:21,930 Is it weird to say, like, I feel like we're. 568 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,600 We're often the. The stepchildren in the closet that are important, but, like, 569 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,040 nobody really wants us to be around visibly, you know what I mean? 570 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,960 We want to be hidden. We want to be back there, like, doing our job, but nobody 571 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,640 really wants to see you or hear from you or talk about you. 572 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,280 Right. And that's probably a good thing. 573 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:38,920 Normally we don't stay in the media. 574 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker C: This. 575 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker B: It's been a very odd couple years now where we've been in the media quite a bit. 576 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,320 You know, I don't know what was it? 577 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,880 I think Bedford just did a recent thing where he did with Congress and he was 578 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,490 talking about, I. I don't want to quote the number wrong, but it was something 579 00:30:52,490 --> 00:30:56,810 crazy, like $10 billion or something that they had to. 580 00:30:57,130 --> 00:30:59,370 Whatever. And they need more. I think they need more. 581 00:30:59,530 --> 00:31:02,170 Speaker D: He's the current administrator, Is that right, Mr. 582 00:31:02,170 --> 00:31:02,570 Bedford? 583 00:31:02,570 --> 00:31:04,090 Speaker B: Yes. Is the current FAA administrator. 584 00:31:04,090 --> 00:31:09,330 Speaker C: Normally, this show talks about mental health and significant life trauma, but, 585 00:31:09,330 --> 00:31:16,210 like, I swear to God, you have more grievances and, you know, stress just from like, 586 00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:20,440 the kind of overarching bullshit of your job than probably almost anyone else we've 587 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:20,920 talked to. 588 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker B: It's. 589 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,000 I appreciate that, I guess. Or maybe I don't. 590 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker C: I don't know. Well, no, it sounds like you were. 591 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:36,480 You were sold, you know, kind of misinformed about what the career you were being 592 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,640 offered, and then, you know, kind 593 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker B: of, you know, stuck. 594 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker C: Stuck in some of these positions where, like, again, you were lied to almost. 595 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker B: It's weird. I. I love my job. 596 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,920 Strangely enough, I've fallen into the career that I. 597 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,660 I enj quite a bit. I like what I do. 598 00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:54,420 Obviously, the driving factor for anybody, like, at least for me, was money. 599 00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:58,020 I. I can. I feel like me, as an individual can do quite a few things. 600 00:31:58,020 --> 00:32:00,100 If you give me enough money, I will probably do them. 601 00:32:00,340 --> 00:32:02,780 And I think a lot of people fall into that when it comes to a job. 602 00:32:02,780 --> 00:32:05,940 Hey, what do you want to do? There's limits, obviously, right? 603 00:32:05,940 --> 00:32:07,860 But, you know, we'll all cut our limits. 604 00:32:07,940 --> 00:32:09,700 Speaker A: Don't. Don't get into podcasting, 605 00:32:13,060 --> 00:32:14,820 Speaker B: you know, and it's. 606 00:32:14,820 --> 00:32:17,850 It's tough, man. It's. I don't want to undersell. 607 00:32:17,850 --> 00:32:22,050 Like, you know, there are individuals in this agency that are working so fricking 608 00:32:22,050 --> 00:32:24,130 hard, and I, you know, applaud them every day. 609 00:32:24,130 --> 00:32:28,730 These guys are just absolutely doing it, you know, guys and gals, obviously, but you 610 00:32:28,730 --> 00:32:30,410 know what I mean? And it's just. 611 00:32:30,570 --> 00:32:34,690 I'm thankful that I. I'm at a facility that does get, you know, some relief every 612 00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:37,450 once in a while, you know. You know, some of the winners are pretty slow. 613 00:32:37,850 --> 00:32:40,970 So there are some days that I get some easy days, which are nice. 614 00:32:41,290 --> 00:32:43,610 Not every facility gets those opportunities, right? 615 00:32:43,610 --> 00:32:47,270 Not every facility gets those opportunities of having a spot leave day where they 616 00:32:47,270 --> 00:32:49,270 can just come in and say, hey, could I take leave today? 617 00:32:49,270 --> 00:32:51,110 You know, some of those chances just don't happen. 618 00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:55,070 It's. You get your, you know, leave that you bid last year, and that's it. 619 00:32:55,310 --> 00:32:58,470 You plan your year and a year in advance, and you hope that you can get your eight 620 00:32:58,470 --> 00:33:00,670 days off a month, and you're probably not getting those either. 621 00:33:00,830 --> 00:33:02,470 Speaker A: That's so. That seems so. 622 00:33:02,470 --> 00:33:04,190 It sounds like what Eric was saying. 623 00:33:04,430 --> 00:33:06,390 It's it sounds more stressful. 624 00:33:06,390 --> 00:33:06,750 Speaker B: The. 625 00:33:07,150 --> 00:33:10,670 Speaker A: The. What's the logistics and the personnel. 626 00:33:10,670 --> 00:33:16,310 The HR side of things sounds more stressful than the actual I gotta land this plane 627 00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:18,790 scenario. Is that right when you get to 628 00:33:18,790 --> 00:33:22,390 Speaker B: a point that you're comfortable with the plane stuff, that comes pretty good. 629 00:33:22,390 --> 00:33:26,110 You know, obviously there are. There are days that I go in and I work for a session 630 00:33:26,110 --> 00:33:29,830 or an hour or two hours on, and it's like, my God, my brain is fried. 631 00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:32,230 I don't want to do that shit again for a while. 632 00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:35,270 But, you know, I go take a break and come back, it's like, well, here we go again. 633 00:33:35,510 --> 00:33:38,790 I don't know, maybe I've been conditioned to just go in and get beaten and it just 634 00:33:38,790 --> 00:33:40,470 is what it is, right? Yeah. 635 00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:44,530 There are days that I. I feel like I'm able to leave it there pretty good, and not 636 00:33:44,530 --> 00:33:47,810 everybody can. And I'm not saying that, you know, I'm the exception or anything, but 637 00:33:47,890 --> 00:33:51,530 it's tough. You. You definitely have opportunities in days where you're just 638 00:33:51,530 --> 00:33:55,770 absolutely beat up, and then other days where you're not, and, like, it would be so 639 00:33:55,770 --> 00:33:59,530 much easier if I didn't have to do the other stuff and I could just come in and 640 00:33:59,530 --> 00:34:04,050 control air traffic. I know that sounds crazy to say, but if my job was just to 641 00:34:04,050 --> 00:34:07,850 control traffic and I didn't have to worry about, you know, oh, well, I have to do 642 00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:10,610 all this, you know, extra budgeting. I have to make sure that, you know, my kids are 643 00:34:10,610 --> 00:34:13,939 doing this and I can't take off, you know, I can't take off next week, you know, for 644 00:34:13,939 --> 00:34:17,019 that because, well, I didn't bid it year in advance because I didn't know I was 645 00:34:17,019 --> 00:34:20,659 going to need to. And I can't work, you know, I can't help you this weekend, honey, 646 00:34:20,659 --> 00:34:23,139 because I've got a overtime, you know, like, if. 647 00:34:23,139 --> 00:34:26,619 If some of that stuff was a little bit less shitty, 648 00:34:28,139 --> 00:34:33,499 excuse my French, but, you know, it would make my job of just controlling traffic a 649 00:34:33,499 --> 00:34:34,219 little bit easier. 650 00:34:34,299 --> 00:34:36,579 Speaker A: Yeah, that is kind of crazy, I think, like, for the. 651 00:34:36,579 --> 00:34:40,810 The impact on family life of, like, you don't know a year in advance what your kid's 652 00:34:41,050 --> 00:34:42,810 soccer game schedule is. 653 00:34:43,050 --> 00:34:45,450 You can't know that. Right. And you just, like. 654 00:34:45,610 --> 00:34:51,530 And the idea. It's always stressful on families, I think when one spouses or one 655 00:34:51,530 --> 00:34:55,770 partner's job has to take priority over the other one. 656 00:34:55,770 --> 00:34:57,770 Right. Like everyone in secondary. 657 00:34:57,850 --> 00:35:00,090 And you get blamed for it sometimes, right? 658 00:35:00,330 --> 00:35:02,490 Speaker B: Yep, very much so. You know, and. 659 00:35:02,490 --> 00:35:04,330 And then my wife works a little bit. 660 00:35:04,330 --> 00:35:07,290 She doesn't work full time. She works like a part time job. 661 00:35:07,290 --> 00:35:11,210 But there are chance opportunities where, you know, and many other individuals have 662 00:35:11,210 --> 00:35:13,210 this as well, where babysitter cancels. 663 00:35:13,210 --> 00:35:16,690 Well, you know, what do you do? Well, somebody has to stay home with the kids, 664 00:35:16,690 --> 00:35:21,810 right? So it's either like I'm calling in sick to take care of the kids or probably 665 00:35:21,810 --> 00:35:24,890 she's not going to be able to. She's not going to have the that leave opportunity or 666 00:35:24,890 --> 00:35:28,970 that just. I could just call in sick and hopefully not really have a detriment from 667 00:35:28,970 --> 00:35:30,050 it per se on a record. 668 00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:31,970 Speaker A: What about the actual controlling aircraft? 669 00:35:31,970 --> 00:35:36,170 Are there any stressful situations over the last 15 years that stick out in your 670 00:35:36,170 --> 00:35:42,660 mind of just, you know, crazy weather, crazy confluence of circumstances that 671 00:35:42,900 --> 00:35:45,460 you remember as being a particularly hard moment? 672 00:35:45,860 --> 00:35:49,540 Speaker B: So nothing crazy or major. I've, I've thankfully never been involved anything like 673 00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:54,380 fatality wise. You know, the most stressful things that we do on a day to day basis 674 00:35:54,380 --> 00:35:57,420 are training people to be air traffic controllers. 675 00:35:57,420 --> 00:36:00,980 That's probably the hardest thing. The most stressful stuff we do I think is, is 676 00:36:00,980 --> 00:36:04,260 controlling the next, you know, generation in general. 677 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker A: I think that's a testament to air traffic controllers in general of the level of 678 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,160 professionalism that's required. 679 00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:17,280 Means that there are no midair collisions and there are no fatalities because when 680 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:23,480 the weather is bad, you follow the procedure and you reroute or you know, whatever 681 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,800 the situation is. And if everyone's trained well, then yeah, you're probably not. 682 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,560 You shouldn't end up with a bunch of stories. 683 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,080 This one time, two aircraft collided, you know, over the Runway. 684 00:36:33,690 --> 00:36:38,210 Why? If you're doing everything you're supposed to be doing, there shouldn't be many 685 00:36:38,210 --> 00:36:42,010 of those stories. In fact, if you are that air traffic controller that has a whole 686 00:36:42,010 --> 00:36:46,290 lot of crashes while you were controlling, I don't think I want you on this podcast. 687 00:36:46,290 --> 00:36:49,050 I don't think maybe that now I'm thinking that maybe it's not a great guess. 688 00:36:50,570 --> 00:36:52,210 Speaker D: We got an air traffic controller tonight. 689 00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:53,690 He goes by the name of Wildcat. 690 00:36:56,410 --> 00:36:58,010 Speaker A: His catch line is wing it. 691 00:36:58,090 --> 00:37:02,170 Speaker B: Yeah, the most stressful other than training, obviously the most stressful days that 692 00:37:02,170 --> 00:37:05,910 we deal with are weather days. And I don't know if people understand in general that 693 00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:11,190 how detriment weather is and there's not some amazing AI that's going to come out 694 00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:14,870 and fix it or some particular plan that somebody's going to have. 695 00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:18,470 Look, the weather changes consistently and constantly. 696 00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:23,070 Speaker C: I live in Denver and it's one of the most like violently drastic weather changing 697 00:37:23,070 --> 00:37:26,830 cities in the world, things can just like, you know, change on the drop of a dime 698 00:37:26,830 --> 00:37:31,200 there. And I've just flown into DIA so many times, I'm like, I wish they just like, 699 00:37:31,590 --> 00:37:35,030 you know, turned off on that one, just with like these crazy drops and turbulence 700 00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:38,070 coming in. So I appreciate that. 701 00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:43,230 Speaker A: I think we brought it up in the carry on episode following the last air traffic 702 00:37:43,230 --> 00:37:46,390 controller episode because we didn't think of it, but I'm thinking about it now. 703 00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:51,270 Is there any concern in the industry about the technology changing that would limit 704 00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:53,070 the need for air traffic controllers? 705 00:37:53,070 --> 00:37:57,150 Or is any talk in the field about AI or any other technology coming along that would 706 00:37:57,540 --> 00:37:58,580 get rid of your jobs? 707 00:37:58,580 --> 00:38:02,140 Speaker B: The human element is huge, and so that's not going away anytime soon. 708 00:38:02,140 --> 00:38:05,580 I know that I've been asked a few times, hey, do you think, you know, just from 709 00:38:05,580 --> 00:38:08,900 random people talking about, you know, all this stuff with AI and everything else, 710 00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:11,620 is that gonna, you know, they're gonna replace you and stuff? 711 00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:14,780 No, no, there's not even a chance in hell. 712 00:38:14,780 --> 00:38:18,660 Not anytime soon. Yeah, maybe like another hundred years from now we're talking 713 00:38:18,660 --> 00:38:21,860 that, like, I could be potentially replaced by an AI, but I don't think that's 714 00:38:21,860 --> 00:38:26,710 happening anytime soon. What I do think will be happening is something along the 715 00:38:26,710 --> 00:38:30,070 lines of more data accessible at my fingertips. 716 00:38:30,070 --> 00:38:34,950 Right. More data in front of me on the scope, and probably some type of checks and 717 00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:40,070 balance systems where a background system will double check the work that I'm doing 718 00:38:40,070 --> 00:38:43,630 and say, yeah, that sounds good, or, yeah, that sounds great, or hey, here's a 719 00:38:43,630 --> 00:38:47,510 suggestion. If you don't want to do that, I would imagine that would be the future 720 00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:51,680 where technology goes. Right now it's still very reliant upon the controller, but 721 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,920 with some like, hey, by the way, here's some other options maybe for you to explore, 722 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,560 or here's some things that I'm pulling up and seeing maybe that you're not quite 723 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,480 having access to. You know, there's still a lot of facilities that are under. 724 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,680 Not understaffed as a word, but they're still. 725 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,800 Their technology is lacking, obviously. 726 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,440 Like, it's getting there. I think it's getting there. 727 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,080 Right. You know, I. Over time, obviously, we're getting rid of paper strips. 728 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,280 We still have them in my facility. It still happens. 729 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,160 So we're still using old technology in some instances. 730 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,640 You know, nobody's going through the book and separating aircraft by, you know, 731 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,260 times or anything crazy like that. 732 00:39:24,260 --> 00:39:26,020 Like, I don't want anybody to think that. Right. 733 00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:28,780 Recently they impotented cpdlc. 734 00:39:28,780 --> 00:39:31,620 I Think at a lot of places. I don't know if that's fully rolled out in all the 735 00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:35,500 centers, but that's essentially like a texting system where the controller can like 736 00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:39,260 click on some boxes, kind of send, hey, you just send a flight level two eight zero, 737 00:39:39,260 --> 00:39:41,900 essentially, more or less. That sends it to the pilot. 738 00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:45,340 They can kind of look at that. It pops up on a screen and they can say accept it or 739 00:39:45,340 --> 00:39:48,340 deny it and no communication has to happen. 740 00:39:48,580 --> 00:39:50,140 Speaker A: Gets rid of some radio traffic. 741 00:39:50,610 --> 00:39:53,650 Speaker B: Right? Control the radio traffic. Because sometimes that'll be the limiting factor 742 00:39:53,650 --> 00:39:56,370 is everybody is trying to wait for the turn to talk. 743 00:39:56,530 --> 00:40:00,970 And if you're dealing situations of high traffic volume or complexity, not 744 00:40:00,970 --> 00:40:03,850 everybody's going to get a chance to talk. And I believe they've rolled it out in 745 00:40:03,850 --> 00:40:06,010 most places. It's just for the sinners. 746 00:40:06,010 --> 00:40:07,690 Nat, right now you say you love 747 00:40:07,690 --> 00:40:11,250 Speaker A: the job, but knowing what you know now, will you do it again? 748 00:40:11,890 --> 00:40:14,930 Speaker B: That's a hard question because I don't know what I would do. 749 00:40:15,410 --> 00:40:17,720 I think I would. I think that sounds. 750 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,720 It probably sounds crazy to a lot of people. 751 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,920 I think I would do it again. You know, I mean, it would have been nice to know, 752 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,960 like, hey, how this thing is going to play out. 753 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,600 Like I'm going to be over here for a while and whatever, but I think I would still 754 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:36,400 do it again. I love my job, I love the people I work with and I don't know what else 755 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:37,000 I would do. 756 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker D: I know at the beginning of the podcast you said that no alien stories, but if you 757 00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:44,560 have any in the future, you know where to find us. 758 00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:49,030 Speaker B: I. I've never seen anything I've heard some co workers say before. 759 00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:50,790 I saw some lights or something the other night. 760 00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:53,910 I never figured out what they were. That's usually where it ends. 761 00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:58,630 Nobody has come to me and said that they saw a craft or anything crazy like that. 762 00:40:58,870 --> 00:41:01,430 Speaker C: So we have you on the record. You're not denying it, 763 00:41:02,950 --> 00:41:03,790 not denying that 764 00:41:03,790 --> 00:41:06,710 Speaker B: people have said they've seen lights. Yes. I'm not denying that aspect. 765 00:41:07,030 --> 00:41:08,870 Whether what those lights are, I don't know. 766 00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:10,990 But I'm sure they're not aliens. 767 00:41:10,990 --> 00:41:12,750 Speaker A: About the documentary age of disclosure. 768 00:41:12,750 --> 00:41:14,590 That's all I'm going to say. That's all I'm gonna say. 769 00:41:14,670 --> 00:41:16,230 I'm not gonna get all conspiracy theory. 770 00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:18,910 I'm just gonna say, check out the. Check out the Brian's. 771 00:41:18,910 --> 00:41:21,070 Connor, seeing it, double thumbs up. 772 00:41:21,150 --> 00:41:22,830 Speaker D: I've watched it three times, man. 773 00:41:22,990 --> 00:41:25,590 Speaker A: I know. I've told you it's wild. All right, we're getting off the rails. 774 00:41:25,590 --> 00:41:30,870 But, Landon, it is good to hear people like you and your co workers are out there 775 00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:34,190 doing the hard work with just all the crap that you have to deal with. 776 00:41:34,430 --> 00:41:39,990 I really, really hope it does change for you guys, because I think LaGuardia, if you 777 00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:44,070 got eight guys in that tower, two of them kick off early, you didn't have that 778 00:41:44,070 --> 00:41:46,030 tragedy, and that's probably what they should have had. 779 00:41:46,030 --> 00:41:50,070 But anyway, I'll say that even though you might not be able to say that, and I hope 780 00:41:50,070 --> 00:41:54,590 that does change in the future for you guys, because I think everyone will agree 781 00:41:54,590 --> 00:41:59,190 that if my tax dollars have to go anywhere, I'm fine with it going to. 782 00:41:59,190 --> 00:42:04,310 Keeping the planes in the air safely. So thank you for taking the time to talk to us 783 00:42:04,310 --> 00:42:08,910 and answer some of these questions and just be the voice for air traffic controllers 784 00:42:08,910 --> 00:42:10,940 to get. Get just crapped on way too often. 785 00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:13,140 Speaker B: I work with a bunch of amazing individuals. 786 00:42:13,140 --> 00:42:16,100 These people are my family, and I say that. 787 00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:17,780 It's not like, you know, I don't. 788 00:42:17,780 --> 00:42:20,500 You know, I don't love them like my brother or sister necessarily. 789 00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:22,100 Some of them I do. Some of them I do not. 790 00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:24,540 But there are a bunch of amazing individuals. 791 00:42:24,780 --> 00:42:26,860 Are all of them the greatest control of the world? 792 00:42:26,860 --> 00:42:28,860 No. Are all them the worst control in the world? 793 00:42:28,940 --> 00:42:30,940 Maybe. You know, somebody's got to be, right? 794 00:42:31,020 --> 00:42:31,420 Speaker D: But 795 00:42:33,260 --> 00:42:38,490 Speaker B: the truth of it is, is that every single one of them comes to work every day and 796 00:42:38,490 --> 00:42:41,570 they put in the work to do the absolute best job they can. 797 00:42:41,570 --> 00:42:48,090 I have absolutely zero fears of putting my life or my family's lives in their hands 798 00:42:48,090 --> 00:42:49,690 on an aircraft every single day. 799 00:42:49,690 --> 00:42:52,770 It does not bother me whatsoever. I really hope that. 800 00:42:52,850 --> 00:42:53,250 Speaker A: That. 801 00:42:53,410 --> 00:42:57,050 Speaker B: Whether that's my union, whether that's the administration, whether that's some 802 00:42:57,050 --> 00:43:00,850 other individuals out there that's come out and say, these people deserve more. 803 00:43:01,250 --> 00:43:05,650 And I really hope that, you know, if maybe the public can get on that side or the 804 00:43:05,650 --> 00:43:07,850 media can say, yeah, these people do deserve a lot more. 805 00:43:07,850 --> 00:43:12,290 I. I know sometimes they do, but it would be greatly appreciated if we get just a 806 00:43:12,290 --> 00:43:13,290 little bit more of that. 807 00:43:13,530 --> 00:43:17,450 Speaker A: Well, we appreciate you saying it, and so thanks for coming on. 808 00:43:17,610 --> 00:43:21,290 And before. Before we take off, Ryan, is there anything you want to plug? 809 00:43:21,450 --> 00:43:24,810 Speaker D: Yes, pre order my memoir that's coming out in November. 810 00:43:24,810 --> 00:43:29,610 12 guys walk into a kitchen about my enormous family, where I'm one of 12 brothers 811 00:43:29,610 --> 00:43:32,090 of many races, ethnicities, backgrounds. 812 00:43:32,810 --> 00:43:37,170 The audiobook has now been recorded, and that is available for purchase, too. 813 00:43:37,170 --> 00:43:39,340 You can get it anywhere. Books are sold. 814 00:43:39,730 --> 00:43:41,330 12 guys walk into a kitchen. 815 00:43:41,490 --> 00:43:44,530 Speaker A: All right, guys. Thank you, and we'll see you guys next time.