Finding good architectural staff can be tricky.

And once you found them, how do you hang on to them?

That's what I'm discussing with Stephen drew and this episode

of architecture business club.

The weekly podcast for solo and small firm architecture practice owners,

just like you who want to build a profitable future-proof architecture

business that fits around their life.

I'm the host, John Clayton.

If you want to get notified, when I release a new episode and get access

to free resources and exclusive offers.

Then go to Mr.

John clayton.co.uk forward slash ABC.

And sign up to my free weekly email newsletter.

Now let's discuss.

Uh, finding, hiring and retaining great architectural staff.

Stephen Drew is the founder of the Architecture Social and Interior Design

Social, as well as an ambassador for the Architects Benevolent Society, a

fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a professional member of the

Recruitment Employment Confederation.

and the Association of Professional Staffing Companies.

Architecture Social has a fresh spin on an old formula by breaking down

traditional barriers between companies and creatives, providing a supportive

environment to develop professional skills, find new jobs and socialize.

You can learn more about Architecture Social and connect

with Stephen via architectursocial.

com.

Stephen, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Wow, it's, it's been so good to meet you in person in London.

So it's quite a nice thing post, post pandemic to meet in person.

And I'm very happy to be here.

And my, my, my, I'm just going to say that long list of all those titles.

I, I, I do feel like I must have a massive, fragile ego, but well

done for reading them all out.

Thank you.

Oh, you're very welcome.

I mean...

That wasn't even the full list.

I mean, I could have probably gone on for a few minutes,

I'm compensating for some other inadequacies I have,

you know, but anyways, I digress.

I don't want to interrupt the podcast.

It's good to be here.

We don't want to talk about your inadequacies for

the duration of the interview.

So let's skip on from that One thing I did want to say though is I know

before we get stuck into the topic We're going to talk about today.

I know you're a dog lover, aren't you?

I remember when we spoke you were telling me about your Boston Terrier.

Is that

right.

Dexter is

Tell us about Dexter

he's a very cheeky chaff, you know, um,

he's very lovable, hyperactive.

Uh, quite a crazy dog.

Um, uh, but an amazing dog, as they all are.

But, uh, I, I, well, I don't have a child myself.

You know, you, you pick up your, your, um, your puppy, don't you?

And, and, you just, you just don't know what they're gonna be like.

And, if anything, Dex has turned out to be a bit like me.

Stubborn, loving, kind of one track minded, thinks

about the ball all the time.

There you go, I do love him.

He's an amazing dog!

Ha

they do say they take after their owners, don't

ha!

don't know what that says about me and our dog because

our dog is a bit nuts as well.

Um, so today we're going to talk about finding, hiring and

retaining great architectural staff.

Yep.

So maybe you could start by just telling me the story of, of

how you got into recruitment and what led to forming Architecture Social.

Well, that's right.

So I studied architecture.

I did five years of it and no one in their right mind who's, who's any form has, has

any form of sanity thinks I'm going to go into a sales role, you know, no way.

You don't do all that to do that.

It's crazy.

I just kind of fell into it.

And anyone that says they plan to go on recruitment is absolutely full

of it because you just fall into it.

It's no one's first choice.

I just, at the time I didn't want to get fully qualified.

I didn't maybe have certain excitements that my other colleagues who were

studying to become architecture did.

I love the 3D modeling.

I wasn't sure I was so interested in perhaps some of the technical detailing.

And I just thought, you know what, I'm going to find out what else is there.

And the first place I walked into, they were like, Hey, you, you're good

at chatting, why don't you do this?

And that's the kind of the quick version.

So yes, you're right.

I did architecture.

I worked in industry for three years.

I worked alongside technologists, alongside architects, um.

Then went into recruitment and I've helped architectural practices, small,

medium, and large, probably for the last 10 years of recruitment, I then

set up the architecture social, which is a bit of an online platform does a few

different things as well, and still does recruitment, but the important bit as

well as I returned to the architectural practice where I left before and they

fell into recruitment, I returned to help them on their hiring strategy.

So all the secrets that I've learned from.

Being the hiring manager, being the recruitment consultant

and also being the candidate.

So I've seen every step and I'm more than happy to give any business owners

here in the business club insights, save money, make recruitment less

stressful because let's be honest, it's a pain in the ass for everyone.

It's difficult.

It's a people process.

So I'm all, I'm all yours, but that's the content.

Uh, that's the context of what I've done.

Hopefully it's useful.

That's brilliant.

You summed it up perfectly.

Um, okay, so what, what common problems do you see employers encounter when it

comes specifically to finding staff?

Oh, it's just, there's, there, there's, there is, there

isn't really a book on it, right?

And if there was, the book is usually rubbish in recruitment, right?

And therefore, again, it goes back to where I said, it's

a very humanistic process.

Things can go wrong for a difficult reason.

A few, many different reasons.

You know, recruitment is expensive.

Stop.

Okay.

It's a time sink.

You're going to be interviewing people.

You can waste time.

People can join, they can leave.

Okay.

And then if you, so that costs you money, cause it's basically time

that you're not doing that stuff.

And then when you use a recruitment consultant, which really is saving

you time in theory, not always.

Then for that recruitment consultant will charge you money.

So.

You know, there's, there's, it's like, ah, you, you, you, you're

damned if you do damned if you don't.

And then also there's certain hiring practices that you can do direct, such

as job advertisements and all this stuff.

And it's questionable how effective they are as well.

And, uh, job boards used to be such a huge, big thing.

Part of it, that the old architecture magazine used to come around the Arctic's

journal PD for jobs and all this stuff.

And they would have.

All the classifieds at the back, not dodgy ones.

You know what I'm on about?

But like they would be one saying we're looking for a technologist, whatever.

Right.

And that's all changed.

The land, the, the, the landscape's changed and I think it's quite

exciting at the moment, LinkedIn.

Social media, these platforms, these can all be utilized really

well to save you a lot of money and time and stress by starting to

have inbound people of interest.

And that basically is effectively like online marketing, you know,

but it takes time and it's, and if you want immediate results.

Investing in your market is not going to get stuff immediately, maybe if

you're lucky, however, we have to constantly think about what we're doing.

So I'm more than happy to let you to answer any questions on

recruitment strategies to save cash.

Hopefully.

I love that, before we move on to that, you've just reminded

me that, that when the BD used to come through, that used to be the thing that

everyone in the office used to do when I worked in practice, the first page that

they would go to and flick through to the jobs page and like, Oh, have a look

at what salaries are on offer there.

That used to be the first thing that most people used to do.

But as you say that it's, it's totally changed now, hasn't it?

The way that people find stuff and the options that are out there for us.

What about mistakes though?

Do you, are there any kind of typical mistakes that you see employers making

as part of that recruitment process?

There must be some common things that you've seen and thought, Oh.

Not again.

Yeah, the, the, the big, the biggest one is that the one that

comes to mind anyways, there's quite a few, uh, one that comes to mind is job

advertisements are typically very bad.

If they're advertised at all.

So number one mistake is not advertising your vacancy and 70 percent

of vacancies are not advertised.

It's uh, quite quite big when you think about it And so the first thing

you should you should actually get the vacancy on the website, right?

It sounds so silly but trust me i've been there myself where I preach this

to companies and then i'm hiring and i'm like I didn't put my job ad so

we all do it We all get busy, but I think it's really important to get

that job vacancy on because people are not mind readers and and maybe

if you're uh, fosters and partners, right you got your famous Infamous

maybe, but you're definitely famous.

And what that means is a lot of applications are going to be coming in

for architects, architectural assistants.

But if you're a small business owner at the start of your journey.

No, not everyone's going to know who you are.

It's a big wide world.

So you've got to think like, how am I bleeding the noise?

How am I going to get out there now, before we talk about ways to go about

things, and I'm happy to go into that and we'll go through that in a bit.

The next biggest mistake is you've got to advertise your role, but that usually the

job descriptions are written quite badly.

Um, what do I mean by this?

Well, if you close your eyes and you imagine a job description, they

usually start something like we are looking for a senior architect must

have 10 years experience with Revit must have eight years experience on,

you know, I in residential projects must have this must have MBS chorus

must have this must do this must of that must, must, must, must, must.

And what that is actually is, is it's.

What's I call a top down approach.

You must have this.

I am looking for this.

And when people read that, if they're desperate for a job, they're

going to click and go through, or sometimes people don't even read it.

They click.

There might be an IT architect for all they think, or they think a

technologist is something else, or as a receptionist might spam it, right?

Whatever.

But you might have some person there that reads it and goes,

Oh, I only have four years Revit.

I don't have five.

And they move on and therefore you exclude people.

But also when you're trying to get people for a job, you've

got to think about when you were looking for a job and in the past.

Even if you're the business owner now, try to think back in the past.

And you've really got to tap into where people are in their lives and what and

where your company can fit in with that.

And don't use caveat words which mean nothing, like always makes

me laugh, an exciting opportunity.

I mean, what the heck does that mean?

A close knit team.

Oh goodness me, gracious me.

We were talking before, weren't we, about where you worked in Australia.

It was a fun environment where people could come and go.

They worked hard, played hard.

It was social.

You had barbecues on the first day and all that stuff.

You said on the first day you came down, it was a whole big event.

You've got to paint this picture in the culture.

Like EPR Architects where I worked.

Um, they do yoga twice a week.

They're a great company.

Just moved into a new office, an amazing practice where they converted

an old school into a beautiful setting.

Okay.

They do social events.

They do training.

There's a mentoring scheme.

There's Revit training, all this stuff.

Okay.

Now, when I'm telling you about that, you're thinking about how that

fits in for you, you're imagining your life as the candidate, you're

starting to visualize yourself then.

Which is great because that means if you're a good architect, maybe

you're more likely to apply.

Whereas the other ads that I saw at the start, that I've talked about at

the start, must have 10 years rebit.

I'm not that interested.

I can't imagine myself being there.

So that's the number one mistake that I see, John.

That's really interesting actually that the example that you

gave of the kind of bad ads there, that's so typical of so many job ads

that you see generally, not just within architecture, that it's very much about

the employer just listing out their dream list of, of what they want from

the candidate and not actually thinking.

How can we position ourselves as amazing employers so that

we attract the best candidates?

Yeah, exactly.

Or it's an advert or it's a, it's like getting your message out there.

I mean, the other thing people don't really think about, and I get it

because you're stressed in an interview, you're doing all this stuff, but it's

actually a chance for you to sell the company or paint a great picture

of it and build up that public pres, uh, present the public image, right?

And what I mean by that is.

You may not even hire the person, but if you're nice to them, you

show them around a bit, and then you let them down late, gently, maybe

they go away and go, I didn't get it, but it was a really nice place.

Okay, that's one version, whereas if you tear someone, uh, a new, a new, I

was going to swear then, but it's not my podcast, but if you tear it into

someone, they're going to remember, aren't they go, I went in that place

and this guy just grilled me, absolutely grilled me, or I was there and we

were in the evening quite late and the interview went on for two hours and

it was just this lady ripping into me and everyone was still working there.

That's not a good presentation.

So you need to really think about what how people see it and people talk online

and glass doors there Although i've got mixed things at the moment You don't know

how I feel about glass door because i'm aware of some companies paying to remove

reviews So i'm not too worried about glass doors, but you think about your

mates who you speak to They all say who they've interviewed with what it was like

what they've heard and you need to be on top of that If you want the best people

So, okay, so let's assume that there's a small practice out there

that's,

Yep

support.

They need some architectural, an additional architectural staff member.

So, They've taken your advice and they've done a red hot job ad that's

kind of really selling selling them as an employer How fantastic that they

are and what the culture would be like there So maybe they get to the stage

then of interviewing some people and have someone they want to hire Is there

a what would be the kind of next common?

Stumbling block is there Any of the common mistakes you see when it comes

to that part of the actual actually kind of offering somebody the job and

and hiring them once you've actually attracted those candidates with that

ads, are there any other common issues that you've seen occur once it gets to

the point of hiring the staff member?

Yeah, good question.

I think, so, a little bit of building on what I said before, you have to remember

that you need to potentially charm someone, and if you're giving someone a

hard time and then you make an offer to them, and the other place up the road is

on equal powering, and they've been quite charming, Who do you think the person's

more likely going to gravitate towards?

Right?

So you need to think about this commercially and you need to think

about optimizing your position as soon as, as best as possible.

So I think the number one thing is just to treat people with respect.

And also remember that.

It's a person that's looking for a job.

They won't wait around for you forever.

That's a big one that I see happening in recruitment.

Yes.

Projects, and it's difficult when you first hire, especially timing,

do I make the jump, all this stuff.

However, you need to understand and have clear communication with that person.

So there's an expression in sales called time kills deals.

And I think that applies to recruitment.

Okay.

Maybe it's not a deal per se.

However, it's like anything, the longer it goes, the more variables

that happen and you need to be on top of that as soon as possible.

And so I think, uh, one of the companies that I used to work with was very good

at meeting people as quick as possible.

That's number one, because there's a chance that they're

the first person you see.

They, they, you're the first, you're the first person they see.

And, um, You can snap them off the market.

So meeting people, I think as soon as possible is great with the

caveat though, that you've got to be prepared to make the decision.

There's absolutely no point interviewing people unless you don't want to hire

someone, unless you middle management that wants to look busy, but this

isn't what the business club is about.

We're all busy people.

I'm the same.

I've got a business.

I got five staff.

If I'm interviewing, I'm interviewing and I'm ready to make an offer and you've

got to be ready and you're going to be reactive and you can't faff around.

You've got to just be to the point, clear, concise, and stick with your words.

And.

If you say you can offer a salary offer the salary be honest about where

you are as well The other thing is you mentioned maybe some people get

things get competitive and stuff.

Let's pretend you're a small business You can't compete so much on the salary

think about flexibility People are always looking for more flexibility

and you need to keep that in mind and that could be a quite nice caveat

where you Know you say listen Okay.

We're a smaller practice.

The salary is this.

However, when I'm prepared, I'm very happy for you to do the school run.

I'm very happy for you to work two days at home.

And there's ways that you can shimmy it around, but you

remember it's a conversation.

Remember it's moving parts and you need to be fluid.

And I think that the companies, and this usually happens when they get bigger.

So if we're any small to medium companies right now, it's not something

you don't need to worry about.

But when you get bigger, you can sometimes get structure.

You know, Oh, we can't do this.

Or, Oh, we've got to kick it up to, to HR, who is going to review

that change in the contract.

We've got to get improved by six people.

And that's where you can lose the opportunity.

You can lose the deal, whatever you want to explain it.

So that's what I would say when you're small, be agile, remember, it's a

conversation, put your money with them, put your money where the mouth is.

I think that's what the saying is, but.

Be clear, concise and don't F around.

Sorry, I wasn't sure if I can swear or not.

It's okay.

Um, that that's that's brilliant advice, though, and there was.

One thing I just wanted to pick up on there, just regarding, salary really, and

how you often see job ads out there that are very vague on the matter of salary.

What's your thoughts on that, about, how upfront people, employers

should be when they're advertising architectural posts about salary?

Remember, don't forget to subscribe to my free weekly email newsletter.

You can do that at mrjonclayton.co.uk/abc.

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Now, back to the show.

tricky question.

Cause very spicy territory right now.

And I do not think that the RAB a salary guide is good.

Oh, public, um, that's the first time I've probably said that

publicly and it's not good.

And I tell you why I don't think it's good.

The architecture socializer salary guide, but other people

have a salary guide as well.

You need to weigh them all up.

The reason why I don't think that the RIBA salary guide is a good salary

guide for businesses is that they do get the information, but by the time the

report comes out, it's nine months old.

That's an eternity.

In this world, it's a crazy time period.

It's like, oh, that's, let's make a business decision about 2022s information.

You just don't do that.

And so you need up to date information.

However, I'm going to let you into a secret.

Okay.

I I've got the architecture, social salary guide, and this interactive.

Results so people can put information and that skews it a little bit But all

these recruitment consultants out there including mine and i've worked in like

three or four with them and stuff All these salary guys are finger in the air.

Does this seem right?

Okay, and the small the low medium the high brackets are there for a reason

because There isn't a magic number.

And I saw a report come out by an article lately of a part one in London,

like process and partners on 31 K.

I'm not sure that's still right.

Okay.

I'm not convinced.

I'm not convinced.

I'm just not convinced.

So.

Different companies have different salaries and you will tie yourself up

in knots if you look at all the stuff out there and think that it is accurate.

At the same time though, don't be naive.

So there's a company in Manchester, quite a famous architecture practice,

which always used to make me laugh.

Because they used to try and put the London salaries, the same

as the Manchester salaries and the living costs were different.

Um, so where I'm going with this is you have to be receptive

to the environment you are.

And the quickest way to find out salaries is to compete in a marketplace.

And what do I mean by that?

What I mean is if you see an awesome guy or gal who is an architect looking

for 36 and you want to go 35, you've got to be prepared to lose them.

You might win them over, but you might lose them to someone else.

And that is the harsh way you learn about moving salaries.

So you'd be a bit agile.

And, uh, you know, challenge it as well.

It can go the other way that way.

Of course, you shouldn't just hire someone on their expectations

if they can't deliver because.

Chances are you're going to have to sack them or it's not

going to work or whatever.

So it's a balance.

You've got a bit of common sense, but also listen.

Last thing I'd say on that point is you've got to think about

what's valuable for the business.

Maybe a young architect has got all the Revit skills and that could plug in

and then you've got a senior architect with lots of experience as well.

And you have to factor in everything to the business and architecture

gets a bit strange, doesn't it?

When you get like senior professionals.

Um, The kind of salary dips off to one point, but where am I going with this?

Is that there's no one rule.

There's no one rule.

It's like people say to me about CVs, how many pages are in a CV?

Could be one, could be two, could be three.

And how much should I pay an architect?

Could be 34, could be 36, could be 38.

How good are they?

What value have they got?

How rare are they in your area?

And then on it goes.

Yeah.

topic.

Um, okay.

So if we talked about finding and hiring staff, um, I mean, the

other thing is retaining staff.

I mean, retaining good staff can be an issue for some practices.

So why do you think this is the case?

Well, what do you think that?

Small practice owners and employers can, can do about it

to, to retain their good people.

Yeah, really good question.

I mean, the quickest way to save money on recruitment is keep your staff.

There's a caveat with that though, because of course you have to be, it's cruel to

be kind to business and if they're not the right fit, you have to have a really

difficult conversation with yourself in the ugly mirror about letting them go.

However, you have to, I think generally if you identify a member of staff as

being extremely valuable, then having constant conversations with them about

salaries, about where, where things are good, I can go the other way as well.

Where you go, listen, you want so much value here, which is, I just,

I just have to be really honest about where the business is and

how much money it's been making.

I have that conversation all the time in my business.

And it's quite hilarious how.

If you think about it, how many places have you worked before where they talk,

they don't talk about money and, and I find that dangerous because then

basically people work naively up until the point they get made redundant.

Whereas I think if you're a small business owner, it's very good to be competitive

and be open about the challenges that you've got, because of course

you'd like to hand out huge salaries.

But you have very realistic limitations in the business So I think that's the

first thing because most people leave businesses where they feel like either

there's two reasons Either they feel like they can't progress or they Well, that's

the main reason that they can't progress.

So there's one reason people usually leave.

That's the main reason they can't they

being progressing could be the progression could be,

um, professionally in terms of, um, expanding the knowledge and

getting those new opportunities to kind of progress in that way.

Or it could be a progression in authority and salary

Yeah, exactly.

I guess where I was going around it, and I'll just flesh

out this concept in my head.

Usually, people will do two things when they want to leave.

They'll just leave, or they'll bring it up to you, or, and

then you can talk about it.

Now, Employ, I find it hard, even myself as a business owner, you have

to constantly engage with people.

People need constant reassurance because lots of things are going on.

However, us as business owners, we're busy, right?

But we do need to make a bit of time to catch up with people.

And you do need to make it honest, uh, set goals.

Is the first one.

So what do I mean by this?

I mean that people want to progress and don't just give people a pay rise for

the sake of it, set obstacles that are challenges, obstacles is the wrong word.

Set hurdles.

They have to get over.

And then in return you'll pay them more if you have that conversation I

guarantee you people are more likely to stay more likely to engage if you say

you need to do all this and for that Yet we can look at a salary increase or

yep You'd now become a project architect because you're managing a project whereas

before I was helping you along with it.

Congratulations Doing stuff like that is going to retain people.

Some people are just going to go Some people are going to hand in their notice

and then you've got two choices And one of those is that you let them go Or the

other is you you you try to keep them Which can be quite eventful and hard

work stressful but that's what's called a counter offer now there's some Bullshit

stats going around like on how many people stay after a counter offer Generally,

i've even done a counter offer before where i've stayed i've got a nice pay rise

But counter offers people only stay if things fundamentally change and businesses

tend to whether you like it or not.

And we all need to reflect on this, but we stick with what we're comfortable with.

Oh yeah.

We will move heaven and high water if you stay.

Okay.

I stay.

Two grand extra.

These things don't change.

The person leaves again.

So I think you have to be realistic with that person on what you can do.

But if you have a frank conversation and go, why do you want to go there?

And they go, Oh, you know, I want to go because I'm getting an opportunity

or there's a bit more flexible.

You go, well, why don't you just do that?

Yeah.

You know what I'm like, better the devil you know, if we can make it more

flexible, we can get you the two grand, which you were coming to anyways,

but we can get you the two grand.

If you now do these new responsibilities, so I can put you up to a project

architect, but you got to do it and I'll get you the two grand and we

can also say you'll be flexible.

Do you think that's fair?

And the person might say, yes.

so that sounds like a really great thing that, uh, employers could do.

You mentioned that.

Setting goals for them to work towards to be able to progress and to feel

valued and to, to progress their career and ultimately stay within

that practice without changing jobs and leaving for somewhere else.

Are there any of the simple things that small practice owners can do to just

better look after their staff to, you know, make it a better place to work?

That's

Mmm.

Good question.

I think small practices by nature are more agile, aren't, aren't, aren't they?

Well, we, I have four members of staff, I reckon that's small,

where it can be more agile.

Okay.

We don't have the big, some of the big perks that other places have, um, uh, but

we, we can, we, we have pretty good perks.

Okay.

So where I'm going with this.

Okay.

We might not have private medical care.

However, you might be very flexible and don't underestimate

flexibility after the pandemic.

It really shot, um, uh, it really tore up the rule book in architecture.

And most companies now are trying to go back to a five day week.

They say not, but they are.

And I'm already seeing that in London where some people are working five days a

week, some are working four days a week.

If you're a small business owner, why don't you do flexibility?

I do that with my staff.

I say you can work remote whenever you want.

Of course there's challenges with that.

Do not underestimate how popular that is though.

When people are looking for jobs, the questions they

now ask are, How much money?

What is the job?

Like what, what projects would I be working on?

Um, then what is the flexibility?

And followed by the benefits.

So.

Flexibility is a massive chunk of it, which I think is the easiest

one for small business owners to do.

The other thing is that they get so much experience that they wouldn't get in

an architecture practice, um, which is larger or an architectural, whatever.

Um,

true.

Yeah.

So you've got to really lean into that and just be honest and just say,

listen, the stuff you're going to be learning here, you can actually

apply to your own future business.

For all I care and I'm happy to mentor you happy to do all this stuff.

I'm very happy to be flexible Yes, the salary is not going to be as high as

KPF or Foster's But whatever we're this is what we are and I can offer you this

this lifestyle and you can work down the road in the Huddlesfield or wherever

the heck you are Cardiff for me and have a great life and not commute to London

Tell you what, that's really expensive.

Try living in London try commuting to London It's so you've got to

really identify your strengths and embrace the Things that maybe your

competitors aren't doing And and make that your own and and also embrace The

shortcomings of it, I like hit it head on and go, yes, I can't offer you the

salary and architecture practice done.

So you're already taking out the thing going.

Yes.

However, flexibility, however, project running.

But as you say, though, that those, there's a

couple of other things there.

It's not all about the money.

It's not all about that because there's going to be people that are working in

a firm where they're not getting the opportunities to run projects or they

don't have any of that flexibility.

So if you're a small firm, uh, architecture practice looking

to hire staff, but there's a couple of extra things there.

You could really push with your advertising for that job to really

be able to attract better candidates.

I just wanted to ask actually about.

Well, for sole practitioners, if there's any sole practitioners out there that

are listening, and they're maybe thinking about hiring their first team member, um,

have you got any specific recommendations for them for their first hire?

Oh, only on based upon.

What I did, because first of all, slight tangent, quick one, you don't

really want to involve recruitment consultancies until you're much bigger

because there's a, there's a charge, there's an introduction charge.

It's a few thousand pounds.

You don't need that as a small business.

It's just going to bleed you dry.

But recruitment, recruitment consultants business is really designed for large

companies where basically they've got a project with 400 grand, 500 grand of fees.

They haven't got time to find the six architects they need.

And then they give me a chunk of it, small chunk of it.

And that's what they go on for.

So first of all, avoid recruitment consultants.

Um, it's quite funny when that's one of my core services, but

avoid us as long as possible.

Um, you know, uh, apply what I would do is I advertised on LinkedIn.

I think it's a great platform to do it right now, but also be smart about it.

You know, if you're in, for example, a particular area and you want to hire a

student, maybe build that bridge with the university that's basically going

to, they, they can't, they love to, to bring you good students because.

It's good for their employment ratings and uh, universities are Not an

endangered species, but what I mean is they're getting more expensive, right?

It's so they need to justify their value of employment.

So you need to tap into universities.

You need to be really smart Um, I would I would also there is stuff like The CIAT

event, you can bump into people there.

Generally we will get around that stuff in like the RABA also for

architects have these little hubs.

So I think that's really good way to do it.

I found my first hire accidentally here by bumping into having a

conversation down the line and then.

Um, they, for whatever reason, and their employment paused at the place.

And I said, why don't you work for me?

No way would I have paid a recruiter?

Absolutely madness.

And then, you know, also then it was the next step from that one staff.

We now got free staff because it was through internal referrals.

So I said, listen, if you find someone, I'll pay you a grand of a half.

Just did that.

And so, okay, it cost me a grand and a half, but that's

an employee perk for them.

But also, I don't have to pay recruiters six grand or seven

grand or whatever it is, you know?

Well, that's good advice.

We have, we've covered a lot of ground there.

Do you want to, do you want to try and try and sum up the main points

that we've run through there?

So we started off, we talked about finding staff.

Then we talked about hiring staff, we've talked about retaining staff

and we've talked about, some of the common mistakes and we talked

then just about, sole practitioners hiring their, the first team member.

My

you want to, do you want to try and do you want to try and sum up the

conversation, do you want to add anything?

struggles to summarize it.

I think, I think that recruitment is messy.

Okay.

And it's, it's very bespoke in the business.

There's lots of facets like are people available?

Where are they?

How competitive are you?

How do you stick out?

Do you have an essay in the market?

Do you have nothing?

Do you have no footprint?

And, and like everything else, it's a challenge, but you have to remember.

It's all about the company's brand and the final note I would say on that is

that when you look at your website, when you think about your work as business

owners, you always think, and I do it too, you're always thinking about chasing

the fees, you're chasing that stuff.

Yes, you want your website to look good.

You want to attract business.

You also just need to keep in the back of your mind.

If you do have a careers page or an about us page or all that stuff, you're

going to make your life easier as you expand in terms of recruitment.

So I would just keep in the mind what I've said and think about it always

from the other person's position.

That's probably the biggest key and try to really work out what they're looking for.

Try to work out if it's it, if it fits you and.

You know, just don't jump into it.

I mean, the one thing we haven't touched upon is, you know, hiring

the wrong person can be catastrophic for many different reasons.

And therefore it's good to interview people and don't

rush the interview process.

However, again, I think it's like interviewing the last, last

thing I'd say on that point.

I think it's good to start practicing interviews.

Most people are not very good at doing interviews.

Myself included.

I have different styles.

You have different things.

You've got to practice this stuff.

So I think as soon as you have a legitimate role, no point looking

if you're not going to hire someone.

But as soon as you have a legitimate role, start meeting people.

Don't just hire the first person you see.

It's like your house, isn't it?

You're going to buy the first one.

You're crazy.

You need to have some comparison.

So book people in the same day.

Put the process out and just see what happens.

And I don't know anything else I've forgotten.

Just rewind the podcast.

He's a modern world.

Go backwards and listen to it.

That's fine.

Um, we, we covered a heck of a lot there.

That I have one other question and it's nothing to do with

finding or hiring staff.

It's just a question that I like to ask.

I, I love travel and discovering new places.

So, um, do you want to tell me?

Well, can you tell me one of your favorite places and what you love about it?

This can be near or far, anywhere in the world, the end of your

street, wherever you like.

Is there anywhere that springs to mind as one of your favorite places in the world?

Yeah, good question.

One of the recent places which I was surprised myself

enjoying so much was Berlin.

It's such a cool city with people and it's totally different

than I would have thought.

I was very used to going to like, I don't know, um...

Holiday kind of, uh,

A beach holiday.

Yeah.

Beachy holidays for my parents and stuff.

And actually as much as I love my parents, they're incredibly

stressful to travel with, you know, just that, it's just there.

And then what I discovered was actually going on holiday by yourself.

It's just totally different than that.

Yes.

We like a family holiday.

But there's different versions and I definitely am probably a

workaholic still, but I'm a recovery workaholic and I would always make

excuses John not to go and hold him.

And, uh, and I did a, I had two or three day stopover in Berlin and

why it's important to me is because I realized that I actually need to

stop and have a break and enjoy.

And, and in the end I stayed for something like an extra week.

So I stayed for an extra week.

I got to know all the locals, got to meet a few people.

I did it on my own.

Well, half of it on my own.

And, uh, it was great.

So that's why it's the special place for me.

It's Berlin.

Of all places in the world.

My goodness.

Berlin.

Berlin is, uh, that is an amazing city.

I've, I've been fortunate enough to visit a couple of times and

yeah, absolutely worth a visit.

Yeah.

If you've never been before, um, that's been absolutely awesome.

Thanks so much, Stephen.

I really, really appreciate it.

Where is the best place online for people to connect with

Yeah, sure.

I mean, I'm probably that screaming Welshman on LinkedIn.

However, you can also find me on thearchitecturesofsocial.

com or drop me a message on LinkedIn.

If I don't reply, drop me another one.

Don't be shy.

And yeah, if you want to pick up the phone and be old school, that's

probably the best way to get me.

If you really want to get me, you ring me up, you know, and I'm all yours.

Or for an old school phone call.

You just can't beat it sometimes, can you, you

Yeah.

Right.

Cheers, buddy.

Take care.

Thank you so much.

Next time I'll be taking a trip down memory lane

and sharing a lighthearted.

Look at my Christmas past, present and future working in architecture.

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