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- Hey, this is Shaun with the GoTennis! Podcast,

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And now let's get into our conversation

with Daniel A. Miller,

best-selling author of The Way of the Wave,

Nature's Model for Navigating Life's Currents.

Daniel brings his unique perspective on life and tennis,

sharing how to ride life's waves with trust, acceptance,

and a whole lot of heart.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.

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- Daniel A. Miller, but you said I can call you Danny.

So I appreciate that.

That sounds a little bit formal.

But we would like to ask our first question,

which is, who are you and why do we care?

- I'm a tennis player/author/painter/real estate investor.

That's sort of been my life journey for 80 years.

But I now like to think of myself,

definitely as a tennis player,

but as a writer that's trying to be a service

and give back, my life has been blessed by so many ways

in so many matters.

And my books, it's not my business,

by break even, I'm doing pretty well.

But I really get very gratified

when it resonates with people and if it helps them.

So that's sort of my current journey right now.

So both, and I'm always playing tennis,

three or four days a week

and some of the larger seniors' tournaments.

So it's sort of a combination.

- Nice, I like that.

And I am familiar with writing a book and losing money.

I've done that one time.

(laughing)

I get that.

But your book, The Way of the Wave, I appreciate.

I have the opportunity to have gone through it

in before we had the conversation,

which is usually the best way to do it.

And I want to start because if I were to narrow it down

from a tennis perspective, 'cause like I said,

we're gonna, like I said previously,

we're gonna treat you like a tennis player who's written a book

and it sounds like that's essentially

how you describe yourself.

Maybe also a real estate investor and,

- Yeah. - Chris.

- 'Cause we're all many things.

- Yes.

- We even go through the list of the things Bobby is.

So you use ocean waves for navigating life's unpredictability.

I will share personal story.

There are actually two of them,

but I will basically combine them into one.

Your first sentence in the book,

spoke to me specifically because I also had a huge day

at the beach at Santa Monica.

- Oh wow.

- About 35 years ago, but just outside of Santa Monica here,

I had two very specific evenings with a friend

that were life changing for me.

So maybe there is something about the waves specifically there,

but talk to us about the navigating life

and give us a bit about that perspective from your book.

- Yes, that's 35 years ago.

When I did go to the ocean and watched the waves,

it was really at a low point in my life

where I had undergone a series of pretty traumatic events

that literally brought me to my knees.

And watching the waves, it just struck me immediately

the metaphor of the wave,

how they mirror our lives in so many ways,

especially that we can't control the waves.

And you know, I used to body surf when I was younger.

And when your body surfing you're out of the water,

you definitely know you're not in control.

The waves are, and so what you try to do

is to align with them so that you have smoother rides.

You could still have bumpy rides,

but you find ways that you can sort of protect yourself

by putting your hands out there or over your head.

And I had sort of intuitively knew that the waves

held the keys for a better life for me.

So I went on like on a healing journey.

And what happens very interesting,

at the beginning of COVID, like many people

you were going through old boxes and old files,

and I was putting some boxes in the shed.

And I came across a book that I,

I, 15 chapters of a book that wasn't published,

that I wrote in 1988 called The Wave.

And that was part of my healing journey,

but I didn't know enough about it.

I mean, I knew it, but I couldn't explain it.

And I hadn't had enough life experiences.

So when I found these chapters about five years ago,

it renewed my interest.

I said, maybe I'll try writing a little bit again.

And it ultimately resulted in my current book,

The Way of The Wave.

And it's a more complete book

and that I felt that I could explain it better to others.

And what I shared earlier,

it was about that time my tennis game started really

improving over these last five years.

And then I realized, maybe just a year ago,

is that I was applying some of these things

that I learned about parenting, relationships, work

and how the way fits into that,

I started applying them to my tennis game.

For particularly trust was a big one

that I've learned to trust in my game.

You know, I'm very mental.

That's why I couldn't play golf very long.

It's just too mental for me.

So what I really started learning and really hit me

is to trust that my body can work with my mind,

so to speak, to make the best choices on the court

sort of insulatively and naturally

without getting into all that mental stuff.

That really began the big improvement of my tennis game.

It's sticking with that.

That doesn't mean you're not doing the work.

That doesn't mean you're not practicing.

I heard a pushback at some point

when someone was talking about going with the flow,

which to me sounds like a hippie phrase from the '70s,

but it also sounds like you're not preparing for the future.

It sounds like you're just taking whatever's in front of you.

And someone said at one point,

the only fish in the river that go with the flow are dick.

'Cause the other ones are either swimming the other way.

They're looking for food.

They're trying to mate.

They're hanging out with their families.

They're doing something even though they're still in the rivers.

Sure.

How do you manage the concept of going with the flow

but also with planning and expectations?

I practice regularly.

I had my ball machine.

I was out the other day.

I have to practice.

I have definitely I do that.

You know, working on different strokes,

different parts of the game, that type of thing.

So I have the preparation, as you say, right?

But it's when I'm on the court,

it's no longer time to practice.

And so I don't, I have to avoid thinking about,

to do this, do my footwork, draw back.

It's not, once I start thinking about too much

in the court, my game falters.

And so that's where the trust comes in.

I trust that what I've learned and what I practice

is going to transition naturally to the court over time

if I allow it to.

And that's where the not controlling part comes in.

You know, the part about the wave and the metaphor is,

is being able to let go of control

and knowing when to let go of control.

And just accept what's happening.

And like even on the court,

if I'm having a bad day, and I do have bad days,

is I try to just sort of live in, okay,

this is what's happening.

And maybe, but yet I'm gonna maybe think more about it

after I play and just focus, okay,

focus on just a few things.

And for me, that's watching the ball.

Just start, you know, watch the ball.

And forget about all the other things.

And then the other thing that I've learned to do

is to forgive myself.

And I'll even say on the court,

if I made a blunder, especially a mental blunder,

is I'll say, Danny, I forgive you.

Because if I don't forgive myself,

my mind's gonna be back on that last point, right?

And I don't want it to be there.

'Cause that's gonna make me make another bad call

or shot or something.

So I wanna have, I wanna forget that.

And the best way for me is sort of forgive myself.

I practice hard, I'm pretty good,

but I'm gonna make mistakes.

We're all gonna make mistakes.

If I dwell on those mistakes,

it's gonna undermine my game.

Same at work.

You know, I've been pretty successful at work,

but I will make mistakes and I need to forgive myself.

I can learn by them.

And I say, okay, I can learn.

This is what I did wrong.

We try not to do it again.

But I'm not gonna be hard on myself.

And that's where judging, one of the things

that harms us and going to flow is when we're two judgmental

of others and ourselves.

And the same thing on the court is,

I don't wanna be judgmental of me

or nor my partner for sure.

- Yeah, and what you call wave barriers of judgment

and things like that, right?

- Right.

- As a tennis coach and business owner,

is Danny making any sense?

- No, Danny and I could have a beer together.

- No.

- Okay.

- You know me, you've heard me on the court,

one of my favorites is always trust yourself.

You know, trust your swing.

Trust what you're doing.

You gotta take the head out of it

to associate the head with the body.

I love, I grew up on Long Island.

I might have been at Santa Monica Pier that day,

35 years ago, at that point.

I was living in Los Angeles.

But if you've ever body-surfed,

the buzz, the body-surfing is getting the wave right.

And you're not doing it.

The wave is doing it.

You're just along for the ride.

- Yes.

- And it's the same thing on the court.

And I tell the people all the time,

if you listen to the ball,

the ball tells you where it wants to be hit.

And they look at me kind of cross-eyed,

but it goes back to, don't fight.

You know, don't fight and try to do something

that the ball's really not gonna allow you to do.

So, like I said, not too much, he had said,

I'm like, yep, I agree with this.

I don't really need to say anything today.

So I'm good.

- Okay, I like that.

I like that.

And so that's why I like Ask a Bobby at one point,

'cause it's just kind of that different perspective

that says, okay, so he's giving tennis advice.

And we can all give tennis advice,

whether we're a player or a coach,

because it's personal, it's from us.

And here's what I do.

And so I wanna flip it on you, Danny, and say, okay,

well now I wanna put you as my tennis coach.

And I think you probably already just answered the question,

but I gotta kind of officially ask it,

so we can crop it out later.

Basically to say, if you're coaching a tennis player,

is this part of the philosophy you would bring in as a coach?

- I, yes, I definitely would trust and accept it.

And so I would bring in another thing,

is to be humble, practice humility.

And by that I mean, it used to be,

and I still, I play mainly in the public parks,

and we'll get all kinds of players.

I call them Democratic tennis,

because there's from third world countries, everybody,

oftentimes you'll play with people

who are actually very competitive and do well,

but they're very unorthodox in their style.

And it's not fun.

And so I used to be, I don't wanna play with them,

and it's gonna mess up my game,

and they're just gonna keep lobbying and all this stuff.

And I realized that I'm missing opportunities to learn

because I'm being a little smug.

It's good to be confident, I agree.

But I need to be more humble,

and I'm much more that way.

And so I've, in the senior tournaments,

you get all kinds of players too.

So why not practice with those kinds on the court?

So I would say that, the main thing we've talked about

before is just trust yourself, trust your strokes,

especially if you've been practicing,

if you haven't been practicing and working on them,

that's another thing.

But you have, you've done the work, you put all the hard work.

So now just go with the trust.

And the one that my wife got me to do is,

Danny have fun.

Have fun.

I tend to be too serious.

So my mantra is on the court right now,

'cause I don't wanna overthink it.

One is have fun.

Go with the wave.

I'll just say go with the wave and trust.

Those three things.

So I don't think about how I draw back

or I don't think about tennis specific things.

And these, I call mantras, it relaxes me, right?

It helps me by relaxing me and my body.

I like trust in that case because the follow up to that is

the forgiveness that you mentioned.

I need to forgive myself.

We watch all kinds of tennis players out there

and I'm one of them that if I miss,

I don't understand.

I'm good.

Why would I miss?

That doesn't make any sense.

And then you dwell on it and you're not actually

forgiving and moving on.

'Cause that follows up the trust part.

I have to trust that it's gonna work.

If it doesn't work, I also then have to be humble enough

to forgive myself and all of that plays in

from philosophy into tennis.

So I'm gonna ask about you specifically

as a tennis player quickly.

Do you have a go-to shot or strategy?

Are you a serve plus one?

Are you a, I'm gonna stay here out?

I'm gonna outlast my other 80 year old opponent.

What's the, what's the dany way to win

and does it reflect this same philosophy?

Thank you.

I think two things.

To focus on the stronger part of my games, I guess,

which would be at my age, especially my serve

and my back hands and, and, and,

and, and, and trust my forehand.

I would say my weakest area is my forehand,

which is the opposite of most players.

And, but I, I have to, when I,

I have two kinds of forehands.

I can do this sort of like little chop

and then I can do more try to do the,

the, the top spin.

And where I get in there sometimes that,

if I'm thinking too much, I think,

which one should I do?

And now trusting again that I will intuitively know

which is the one to do at that particular point.

So that's sort of my game, I guess, and,

and I guess the other thing I would say also,

maybe for those seniors like me, is to accept our limitations.

That's why I'm not playing singles anymore

because I'm a, I'm a runner, I'm very agile.

And so I was getting too many leg injuries.

And so I've learned to accept that limitation

by not playing, I don't play every day,

like a lot of people I know.

So my body's holding up and I'm looking for the long term.

So I, but I do need to accept my limitations.

I mean, this reminds me of a conversation we had

with Dave Matthews a while back about,

you know, what to change after 40

and then we did a follow up of what to change after 50.

What do you have at your club that you see,

maybe the older players or even the high schoolers

that you spend a lot of time with,

that this philosophy can help?

Oh, I think you could help all of them.

I think with the kids, they all try to do too much.

They all default to Defcon five or to, I'm sorry, Defcon one,

you know, in a moment.

And then the older adults, they go, they're,

they're trying to relieve, I love my 55 plus,

they're still serving Valiant.

And they look down and say, why am I stuck in no person's land?

It's like, well, because you're old.

And that's okay.

But again, realize where you are.

And this, the service line is the thing of the past.

So don't worry about that.

And you know, and plus, I think the best part about it

goes, it speaks to life.

It's another part of the journey and brings it.

You can't change it.

Yeah.

There's only one way to change it and that's the end of it.

And so enjoy it.

You know, sit there and laugh about it.

You know, the hard part is, I'm a much better ball striker now

than I was at 19 years old.

I'm not as fast.

You know, I'm not as strong.

I can't, so you know, you sit there and say,

but it wouldn't be one without the other.

So that's the fun part.

It, you know, it's 17.

I was an overachiever because I was so competitive.

Now I'm pretty good, but I don't need to compete anymore either.

I just enjoy hitting the ball.

That's what people don't you miss playing.

No, I'd love to hit the ball.

I get such a pleasure out of hitting the ball,

feeling it right on my strings, that a winner or a loss

is not going to validate or diminish it.

Right.

So, yeah, I just, you know, it's all part of the process.

And I, that's it to me, you know, more than anything, maturation.

And embracing what life again, what is it bringing you?

I don't say accepted, you fight it, you prepare for it.

You try to leave your imprint on it,

but I got, you know, it goes back to life's going to win.

Time's going to win.

So enjoy the time you have.

Yes, yes.

You know, it's sort of interesting when you ask other senior players,

you know, when we're socializing, almost everyone,

including myself, feels they can improve.

They can find a way to improve.

And that's what makes it to me very exciting,

because like, you know, you may be limited, like you say,

you're not going to be brushing them at all the time,

but you can find ways maybe to develop a better,

a little drop shot or a better lob or just your strategy

overall strategy.

That's what makes it exciting too, is, yeah, we're getting older

and, and, you know, some of our skills

are diminishing a little bit, but others,

I think we can work on, and, and that's a joy, you know,

and, and, and have more fun at that.

Yeah.

One door closes, another one opens.

You know, hey, what is it going to bring next?

And, you know, absolutely.

I mean, these are the things, the amazing part to me

is to take this to another step and go to it,

like a Roger Federer or Jimmy Connorshoe, you know,

had a period of such dominance,

and then essentially went away for a few years,

you know, what kept them going?

What was the motivation?

How did they find, after you have what you consider

devastating to feed, to go find and say,

you know what, I'm not that far away,

I'm gonna keep going, I'm gonna work on this.

Those are the people that I, you know, I'd most admire

because they didn't stop fighting, obviously.

They took what they had and said,

what can I do to improve?

And, to me, that's what makes life interesting, you know,

it, it, it, it get boring if you don't want to keep improving.

It's something, you know, and, and, and, and, and just

getting a good person's a good place to start.

I, I think Aguizzi sort of did that too, I remember.

Yeah.

When he made his comeback, I saw him and,

a little challenge your, sort of,

tournament out in Burbank when he was sort of coming back, you know,

and then he just went from there, you know,

so that's sort of cool too.

That's why I lived, I lived in Burbank.

Oh, okay.

Go over the hill and be, it was in Hollywood in two seconds,

but yeah, I've worked in a law firm downtown LA, so,

you, we were, we were crossing paths.

I used to love to ride my, do you say a law firm?

Yeah, I've worked for a law firm in Los Angeles.

Okay.

As a lawyer?

No, I didn't, the, it convinced me I never wanted to be a lawyer.

I was right out of school as I was a paralegal.

I was a lawyer, I was a lawyer for 10 years.

That's why he's at it.

There he goes.

Then I got out of that.

Yeah, we, we were a product liability.

It was a big firm because we represented Marlon Brando's son

in the civil side of his trial.

And you remember Judge Keane from divorce court?

He was a member of the firm.

So it was, it was a fun place to be.

You're right.

But that was my Los Angeles experience, but yes,

Burbank, I loved the hills.

That was a great place to go.

I mean, just go up, you know, get up in the hills

and ride in the mountains.

It was great.

Yeah.

I Los Angeles experiences were very different, Bobby.

So one day, I'll give you a, I have that conversation.

Danny, I got, I got three more things for you quickly.

I want you to, I don't want to say, convince me to read your book.

But from, from a perspective, I read this quote on the back.

It says deeply insightful and practical.

The way of the way of offers hope, not only for individuals,

but for our troubled nation.

Can you give me kind of a sound bite even that says,

hey, what, what do you want to account?

Why should everybody read this book?

Thank you.

I'm not, I don't want to say that why they should.

But I will say this, the book is sort of quite a bit

unlike my other books, sort of my own personal journey a little bit.

And, and which, you know, I offer things that,

with these things that work for me, you know, for example,

I'm typically very judgmental.

I've had that problem.

So I've examined that.

I try to, what is my reason for it?

Why am I doing that?

Same with control and expectations.

An anger and fear.

So I've worked through those quite a bit.

And that's why I have prompts at the end of each chapter

so that the reader can examine what I,

that these areas are their own lives.

So I guess, I'll say this, it was my pub,

it's who wrote those words.

She just read it.

So he's more that way than I am.

But it's, I don't look at it as a how to book.

It's sort of like, here's what helped me.

I hope it can help you.

Take what you like, leave the rest, so to speak.

And hopefully like me, your life will be more balanced.

You'll have more peace and more calm.

And you'll be able to deal with the lows,

particularly without really spiraling.

You have a little bit better perspective.

I like that a lot.

And going through it, the book for me,

it didn't feel like you were telling me what to do.

It felt like you were sharing your experiences

in hopes that it would help me.

And I guess, because my wife and I discussed these things.

We read books together.

We get to talk about it.

It takes us forever to get through a book.

Because we go two or three sentences and she's like,

hang on, what did he just say there?

What's going on?

So we get a chance to really go through it

and enjoy it in a way that we're really learning from it.

And sometimes we're going to look at it.

But nope, that doesn't make any sense.

We're going to forget that.

Don't worry about that.

Not yours specifically.

Clearly, that was great.

Right, right.

And but one more thing back on topic of racquet sports,

if you don't mind.

Sure.

You said you're in your 80s.

You put a lot of tennis.

Yes.

You drop a bomb on you.

What do you think about Pickleball?

You know, I'm fine with it.

I play a little of it, but I'm not big into Pickleball yet.

I may get there because my wife who's a master swimmer,

but it's not comfortable on land,

is something that maybe we can pick up together.

So I think it's fine.

I'm just not playing it yet quite honestly.

OK.

Now we--

I said--

in the racquet sports world, there is always

that Pickleball versus tennis or tennis versus Padel.

And who's using who's courts and all that?

And a lot of people that said, Pickleball's just for old people.

You know, it's only for the high schoolers.

So we have a lot of back and forth about its redeeming qualities.

And we love it, of course, because it's part of who we are

in the racquet sports.

But I would expect at some point that you'd

dived into it a little bit.

Yes.

Yes.

It's a thing that many tennis players

at least dip their toe in.

Yes.

Go ahead.

OK.

That makes sense.

Bobby, I've gone through everything I want to do.

You got anything else for Danny before we hit him with King of tennis?

I want to hear the King of tennis.

OK.

We'll jump right into that.

Danny, we have our favorite question to get us out of here,

which is if you were King of tennis,

whether from a coaching perspective,

professional, social, any perspective at all,

in the world, in just where you live, anywhere.

If you were King of tennis, is there anything you would do or change?

What I would do, if I was really truly the King, so to speak,

I would require the tournament, especially the larger ones,

let's say 5% of the purse.

And use it in the local communities for children

to develop kids, especially like after-school programs,

would pay for the instructors, would provide the courts,

provide the equipment, so that more younger people can play tennis.

Because I really think not only for health,

but for safety, especially maybe at risk children,

and ideally, maybe develop some future champions,

US champions at the Grand Slams, who knows.

But the main thing is to bring tennis

to younger people who can't afford it or it's not available.

And if you just took 5% of these multi-million dollar

purses, I think you could do a lot.

So that would be my decree, so to speak.

I like that a lot.

Bob, do you think it can work?

Well, we've talked about it.

It's a good way to go about it.

Get it, get it in the--

people who are making the moves, reward the instructors,

give them the incentive to go get the kids.

Just get more-- just sheer numbers game.

We get 1,000 more kids playing, where live,

all they get, two or three that are actually pretty good.

Yes.

I like that.

Bobby and I usually have different theories where I'm like,

well, volume does it.

Bobby says, no, we need a John McEnroe.

We need the guy that everybody wants to be.

And I think it's probably either a little bit of both

or somewhere in the middle.

See how we get the next champion.

But we also need more authors.

And Danny, I really appreciate you getting me a copy of the book.

And I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and what you've

been through.

And I will let everyone know I think you

should try out this book because it is worth it.

Like I said, I didn't feel like you were telling me what to do.

And I didn't feel like stringing me along.

You really did share some actionable thoughts.

Thank you.

Here's what I went through.

My suggestion is consider this as you move forward.

So I really appreciate it.

Bobby, thank you.

I appreciate you.

Hello, Danny.

Thank you.

Let me add one thing.

Personally narrated this book.

That was quite a journey because it was so personal.

And so it can be acquired at anywhere audible, anywhere

you can get audible books from.

And I have a print and an e-book version on Amazon

and most of the online sites as well.

OK, yeah, that was going to be my very last question,

which is--

Oh, OK.

Where can we get it?

I'll put everything in the show notes for the audio version,

the video versions.

So we will have links to everything that they can find it.

But Amazon, there is--

I had two.

So wonderful, I guess, paperback.

Do you have a hard copy or is it just paperback?

No, no, just a paperback, e-book, and audio book.

And then my website is Daniela Miller.

And I've written about 150 articles

on the control and acceptance dynamics

about letting go of control and practicing acceptance

and more recently about the wave,

so I'm going to short tidbit so that readers might like.

We will make sure all those are in the show notes

and everybody knows how to reach you.

And I appreciate it so much.

And we will be in touch.

So--

Yeah, I enjoyed our conversation with the two.

You guys play off each other really well, I like that.

How do you play on the chords?

Do you guys play together a lot on the chords?

Health, no.

No, Bobby quit playing years ago and I quit playing after COVID.

So actually, neither of us play much tennis at all.

So you pit-mayly pickle ball, is that your son?

No, Bobby's full time on the court running a club.

So there's a--

Oh, I see.

OK.

--free time just to play for fun.

And me personally, I've got a two and a half year old.

OK.

I'm focused on that.

So I get a lot of court time, but it's with my own kid.

We're not exactly-- not exactly duking it out just yet.

You'll have him on the court soon.

So--

Oh, he's getting the best kid.

I think you're over the question is how long is it before he's beating me.

Well, there you have it.

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And be sure to hit that follow button.

For more racket sports content, you

can go to LetsGoTennis.com.

And while you're there, check out our calendar of events,

great deals on racket sports products, apparel, and more.

If you're a coach, director of any racket sports,

or just someone who wants to utilize our online shop,

contact us about setting up your own shop collection

to offer your branded merchandise to the racket sports world.

And with that, we're out.

See you next time.

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