This is Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

From the corporate office to the cab of a truck, they're here to inspire and empower women in all professions.

So gear down, sit back and enjoy.

Welcome.

We're an award winning show dinner dedicated to empowering women in every profession through inspiring stories and expert insights.

No topics off limits.

On our show, we power women on the road to success with expert and celebrity interviews and information you need.

I'm Shelley.

And I'm Kathy.

Breaking barriers is something women have been doing for a very long time.

But it's more than busting through that glass ceiling.

It's proving yourself to your male counterparts and all your colleagues.

Gina Osborne is a classic example of a woman whose done just that.

She trailblazed a path through the world of cyber security and rose to the top in a high stakes male dominated profession.

She became an FBI assistant special agent in charge with over 20 years taking down organized crime, fighting cyber terrorism and safeguarding national security.

She worked espionage cases during the Cold War and led the FBI cybercrime and counterterrorism operation in Los Angeles.

Gina is now a TEDx presenter and host of the Making Maverick Moves podcast where she inspires professionals to break barriers with resilience and fearless decision making.

Gina's compelling story has been featured in major media outlets including Fox 11 News and the LA Times.

She's here to tell us how to turn chaos into opportunity.

Welcome Gina.

Thank you for being on the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

We're so, so, so excited.

Oh yeah.

Oh my goodness.

Can you tell?

Oh, your career, Gina, has been, I'm sure lots of twists and turns, stuff that people don't normally encounter.

You led quite the life.

How did you get started in all of this?

I mean, could you give us a summary maybe of your background and what inspired you?

Gosh, you know, I always start with the fact that when I was a teenager I always dreamed of being an international woman of intrigue.

And it back in the day when the Soviet Union was still in place and the CIA and the, and the KGB and the GRU and you know, I mean, just everything was just out there and the whole spy scene really, really fascinated me.

So my dream was to become a CIA operative and I knew I had to have a four year degree and I was in my second year of college.

I had run out of money and out of nowhere a young man came up to me and started telling me about the Army's counterintelligence program.

This was like back in 1986.

And the next day, I went down to the recruiter's office and I signed up.

And that was pretty much the start of my career.

Wow.

And after you got through that program, where did you go from there?

I mean, was it a progression, or did you kind of get sidetracked?

I imagine your life's had a lot of twists and turns out.

Yeah.

Well, after I made it through basic training, which was quite an interesting experience for a girl from Orange County, California, I wound up going to advanced individual training at Fort Huachuca, Arizona.

And then I was very, very fortunate to be assigned in Europe.

And the first two and a half years I was there, I was assigned in Belgium.

And then the last three and a half years, I was assigned to a specialized team that investigated the highest profile espionage cases in the European theater.

So I was on the road for probably nine months out of the year chasing spies.

So cool.

Yeah.

So you were chasing spies.

Like, when we think of spies, we think of James Bond, that sort of thing.

What were these people like?

Well, I can tell you about one of the cases because this individual wound up getting arrested right in front of me.

That was a story in and of itself.

Well, there's a specialist in Baumholder, Germany, by the name of Albert Chambilay.

And it was during desert Shoot, Desert Storm time.

And he was trying to sell secrets to a Middle Eastern entity.

And so we investigated him, we did surveillance on him, and it turned out it was time for him to get arrested.

Because the case agent, who was an amazing mentor of mine, her name was Connie Huff, she created the sting operation in a hotel room where he thought he was meeting with the bad guys.

And he wound up signing his life away for $3,000.

And.

And they told me I was across the street from his house because I had been watching that for, like, the last week.

And they told me that he was going to be arrested as he entered that military housing community compound.

And I was so disappointed.

I was looking in the distance to see maybe I'd see some lights or hear some sirens or something that showed this spy being arrested.

Right.

The dream of a lifetime.

And then the next thing you know, he just drove up in front of this house, and they arrested him there.

And he eventually got 34 years in prison.

Wow.

Wow.

So did you have to impersonate people, basically take on an alias to do this sort of thing?

Well, the majority of the work on that team, it was undercover work.

In fact, the CIA gave me a disguise kit and that was equipped with.

Let's see scar tissue that I could create scars if I needed.

I had wigs.

And my absolute favorite, favorite thing was a pillow.

So not only did that help me when I was trying to, you know, change my look, but when I was out on, like a 72 hour in a row operation, it was really good to kind of use to sleep in the back of the car.

So.

So I absolutely love it.

You are the coolest lady I think we've ever talked to.

And we talked to some really cool ladies.

Yeah, well, it's not every day you can go.

Before I went into the army, I was a cocktail waitress at a comedy club.

And that's why I always say that the military is such a tremendous, tremendous opportunity because they trained me, you know, within six months, they trained me how to become a counterintelligence agent.

And so I went from being a cocktail waitress to being a counterintelligence agency over like a six or seven month period.

And just to have that opportunity to be in Europe during the end of the Cold War.

And if you were.

If you recall, for those of you who may recall, for those of you who are older, as old as I am, you would know that the 1980s was the decade of the spy.

It was really fascinating.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, the show the Americans is set in the 1980s.

Yes, for sure, for sure.

Yeah, it was great.

And if you would have told me, I would have been driving around Europe in Mercedes and BMWs and Audis while I was in the army as an army specialist or an army sergeant, I never would have believed you.

So these were cars that you got to drive yourself?

Yeah, they were assigned to our team.

And so we drove all across Europe doing our operations.

So it was really a fascinating time.

So you kind of got to live like the rich and famous in what you'd see in the movies in some ways, kind of.

But the hours were a little bit different than the rich and famous.

I know I've slept a lot of hours in a car and I would wake up in the morning and go to the local Esso station and have the breakfast of champions, which was a Fanta and a Snickers bar.

So, yeah, it wasn't as glamorous as I'm making it sound.

There was a lot of work involved, but looking back on it, I don't remember all of the bad parts.

I only remember the good.

Damn.

It's a good thing.

Usually people remember the bad parts and forget the good.

Yeah.

So you led the FBI, cybercrime and counterterrorism operation In Los Angeles, after you did all of that, that's another huge transition because obviously in the 80s and 90s, I don't think cybercrime was really anything that was talked about.

Yeah.

So I did that later in my career when I became an executive.

So right out of the academy, I was given a civil rights investigation where Thai girls were being brought into the United States and forced into prostitution.

And so I was assigned to the Santa Ana office in Orange County, California.

And nearby was the Little Saigon district.

And, and that housed the largest population of Vietnamese people outside of Vietnam.

So I looked at my case file, I saw an article where one of the detectives from the Westminster Police Department had just rescued two Thai girls.

And so I thought, okay, this is a guy I need to be working with.

And so, long story short, if you Listen to my TEDx talk, you can hear the whole story.

But long story short, I wound up on this organized crime task force at the Westminster Police Department.

And we worked Asian organized crime cases, everything stemming from loan sharking to murder for hire.

We did a lot of different types of cases there.

And yeah, and we were able to arrest a lot of really bad people who are targeting their own communities.

So.

So that was, that was really interesting for a six foot blonde to be working in Little side on, but, but yeah, we did it.

Your life would never be boring, that's for sure.

Yeah, it was, it was.

I mean, I look back and, and I just feel so fortunate that I had such an opportunity.

But I also made my opportunities as well.

Like how do you just sit back on the couch after living a life like that?

It's like, oh my God.

Yeah, the problem, I'm not sitting on the couch, you know.

Right.

You're like, can't do that.

But.

Oh, that's just amazing.

Yeah, well, I've always loved to tell stories.

I've always taken writing classes and so I'm working on some projects now.

I do a lot of public speaking keynote speaking where I speak about leadership, but I kind of infuse some of these stories in so, so people can really get a full picture of to how to lead through chaos, crisis and change for one thing, or rise to the top in male dominated fields for another.

But yeah, it's, it's been a lot of fun and really the podcast kind of allows me to continue my service because that's something I've always been a service or person, so.

So yeah, so now I'm really having fun.

Stay tuned for more of women Road warriors coming up.

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Welcome back to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

If you're enjoying this informative episode of Women Road Warriors, I wanted to mention Kathy and I explore all kinds of topics that will power you on the road to success.

We feature a lot of expert interviews, plus we feature celebrities and women who've been trailblazers.

Please check out our podcast@womenroadwarriors.com and click on our Episodes page.

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We want to help as many women as possible.

We've been talking with former FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge Gina Osborne, a true trailblazer who's been breaking barriers and leading with courage in some of the toughest arenas imaginable.

From taking down cybercriminals to confronting Cold War spies, Gina's story proves that leadership isn't about titles, it's about tenacity.

She's the host of the podcast Making Maverick Moves.

Let's dive back in and hear how she continues to help people make those maverick moves and thrive under pressure.

Gina, I would imagine you could write some really good novels with all the experiences you've had.

Thank you, Shelley.

Well, you've experienced things firsthand and certainly, gosh, you could even be an advisor on a Film because a lot of the stuff that they have in the movies is probably not too realistic.

You could say, wait a minute, that's not the way it's done.

But this is really cool.

Why don't you try this?

You know.

Yeah, you know what?

I don't think people would really believe what really happened back in the day, because there are some stories for sure, but.

Yeah.

Do you want me to tell you one of my favorite stories?

Sure, yeah, please do.

So my husband and I were on this team together.

We were a young, young married couple.

And while we were working the Albert Sambilay case, he was going into Belgium from Germany.

He lived in Germany and then he would cross into Belgium.

But as a team, for whatever reason, we didn't have authority to follow him into Belgium.

And so whenever he went into Belgium, someone would have to get out of their car, go up to the top of this hill by the bor and just sit on the hill and watch for when he came back.

And then the surveillance team would pick him up once he came back into Germany.

Well, when my ex husband, with my ex husband now, when he got out of the car, it happened to be in front of or not too far from a car of polizei, the police, and they released their dog, the border dog, on him, and chased him.

And for about two hours I thought he had been eaten by border guard dogs.

Luckily he had not.

But if I write that novel, I think he's going to end that way by being eaten by border dogs.

Okay, I'm kidding.

But yeah, but those type of things, you know, you never would have believed.

But yeah, it was very harrowing at the, you know, for two hours wondering if I was ever going to see him alive again.

I bet.

Well, I imagine that you had more than one close call in those kind of situations.

You definitely, if you were found out, I would imagine your life would be in danger.

Danger.

Yeah, yeah, it was quite, it was quite an experience.

But the interesting thing is, so after I retired, I did some creative things for a couple of years and then I became the chief safety and security officer for La Metro.

And it was a time after, right after the pandemic in 2022, they hadn't done fair enforcement or code of conduct enforcement for about two years during the pandemic.

So, you know, it was interesting that during my time there, I spent two years at La Metro and I think that was the most violence that I had seen in my ent.

Their 28 year career during the two years that I was there.

So that in and of itself is, is a story, but, you know, through all of these, these experiences, I've been able to help people, you know, deal with chaos, crisis and change, of course, but then also resilience and, and, and really the, the message is that, you know, everything that happens is supposed to happen, and if you're prepared, you can make your maverick move.

And when I talk about maverick moves on my podcast, I talk about how you kind of get up to the wall and you're afraid or you're confused or you're intimidated, yet you go through anyway.

Right.

So those are the type of stories that I like to tell of people who decide to move forward even when they are afraid to find that breakthrough success.

We deal with those things in life.

And that's definitely something that people can benefit from.

Well, when you were talking about working in Los Angeles at that point, that was when somebody hijacked an LA Metro bus.

Right?

Right.

Yeah.

And two.

And within like a, probably a four or five month period, they had two hijackings.

The first one was when the bus was hijacked by an individual who had a BB gun and he definitely had the operator, and the operator wound up hitting several cars and crashing into the side of the Ritz Carlton Hotel.

But the one after that, that happened, I think in the summer last year, was when one of the passengers was shot and another one was injured as he or she, I don't know, was.

Was fleeing out of the bus.

So, yeah, they've had some really harrowing things go on, but hopefully it's going to.

It's getting better.

Yeah.

And you had some serious twists and turns there.

I mean, you kind of ran into a brick wall.

Weren't you unjustly terminated after raising some concerns about how officers were patrolling the LA Metro system?

So, yes.

So LA Metro had $200 million contracts with the LAPD, the LA Sheriff's Department, and the Long Beach Police Department.

And I was unhappy with the performance of these agencies.

Well, after a few times that one particular month, I think it was In February of 2024, I was looking for the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department, who was supposed to be at one of the stations in Santa Monica, and they weren't there for probably the third or fourth time in a row.

And so I learned later that day that they were hosting a golf tournament for a Baker to Vegas run that they were going to do.

And so I wound up reaching out to the Inspector general to tell her about it.

And then about a week later, I was fired.

Wow.

Wow.

And with your background, I mean, that had to have been such a major blow because certainly what you brought to the table, you would think that they would value you.

I mean, people run into this, though.

They run into these unfair knocks.

The school of hard knocks, if you will, in life.

And to be able to just persevere is hard to do.

Yes, well, when it.

I was very shocked because the way that it happened, I was in my office, and then the next thing you know, the HR chief comes in, I'm terminated, I'm walked out.

And, you know, I'm past my staff.

And it was.

It was a shock, to say the least.

Right.

But I. I was professional about it.

And I know from my past experiences that with every crisis comes an opportunity.

So I sat for two days, very, very quietly, because I wanted to know, okay, there's gotta be some purpose behind this.

And the next thing you know, Rachel Urenga from the LA Times reached out to me.

She had found out that I was no longer with Metro, and she was writing a story on it.

That's when I figured, okay, I need to get an attorney, because this isn't right.

But it's right after.

And it was in the newspaper, of course.

But right after that, the huge surge of CR happened.

Shootings and stabbings and all sorts of crazy things were happening.

And the media was calling me to talk about what is happening at Metro.

So for the two years I was there, I was trying to get Metro their own police department because obviously the contract policing was not effective.

And so at the end of the day, Metro got about over $100 million worth of additional resources.

And also they were approved unanimously by the board to get their own police department.

And I like to think that, you know, me going public with the things that I saw helped toward that.

So if I could do anything to help the frontline employees or the riders, that was what I wanted to do.

So it had its purpose, for sure.

Bravo for that.

Well, sometimes you have to come out and be an advocate to make the change.

And a lot of times, getting out in the media is exactly what's needed, because I think a lot of times things are just kept on the DL, if you will, and once they're brought out into the sunshine, change has to happen.

Yes, I agree.

And really, that kind of goes to show because I always talk about, you know, be very careful about the hill you choose to die on.

Right?

Yes.

There are consequences with choosing that hill that you're willing to die on.

And so many times when I'm mentoring Young people.

You know, these days it seems like everybody's willing to die on any hill.

But, you know, there.

There are definitely consequences.

But I'll tell you, you know, it really changed my life in such a positive way.

And I really look at it as a gift because without that, I wouldn't have created this amazing platform with my podcast to be able to really show people that, hey, these are the things that happened.

But when you find that hill that you're willing to die on, when you want to make your maverick move, let me help you, and let me introduce you to some people who can tell you how they did it.

And the most fascinating thing was the fact that I had interviewed.

My first guest was the LA City Fire chief, and I interviewed her before the LA fires.

So I interviewed her in November of last year.

So fast forward the fires happened.

She wound up going on the news because this was her hill that she was willing to die on.

When I spoke to her before the fire, I asked her, what maverick move have you made?

And she said, well, I'm making one right now because I don't have the resources to do my job.

So fast forward to February.

She was fired two days before my podcast episode was launched or my podcast was launched.

And so, you know, just watching what she went through, I mean, it really resonated with me because I had the same experience.

I think we were both, you know, politically incorrect or what have you.

But.

But, yeah, but, you know, I mean, as a result of what she did, she wound up getting $103 million, an increase in her budget on the following June while she was sitting demoted, you know, working as, I think, an assistant chief in one of the stations.

So really, those are the heroes, you know, the people who are willing to die on that home for the greater good.

It's tough to do.

You're really taking a personal risk.

And I think a lot of people might want to do this sort of thing, but a maverick move doesn't necessarily have to be something like that.

What would you define as a maverick move?

Well, you know, I meet a lot of people through my podcast, and there are people who just feel like they lack confidence.

I had someone, a wonderful, lovely person, come and talk to me and tell me that, you know, she wishes she could be more confident.

So just flexing that muscle and stepping out of that box, little by little by little, that's how you're going to grow your confidence.

And so it could be as.

As small as taking your power back in a situation at work, or it could be as big as going on the news and talking about how your fire department wasn't funded properly.

So really what we talk about, we go from soup to nuts on the show.

But really the whole purpose behind it is to give people some guidance because I think everybody kind of wants to make that maverick move.

Everybody wishes they can do something spectacular.

And so we'd like to help people on that journey step by step to get them where they want to be.

Stay tuned for more of Women Road warriors coming up.

Dean Michael, the tax doctor here.

I have one question for you.

Do you want to stop worrying about the irs?

If the answer is yes, then look no further.

Further.

I've been around for years.

I've helped countless people across the country and my success rate speaks for itself.

So now you know where to find good, honest help with your tax problems.

What are you waiting for?

If you owe more than $10,000 to the IRS or haven't filed in years, call me now at 888-557-4020 or go to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free consultation and get your life back.

Welcome back to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

If you've ever wondered what it takes to thrive in high pressure, male dominated arenas, our guest today knows firsthand.

Gina Osborne climbed the ranks of the FBI to become an assistant special agent in charge, a rare achievement for any woman.

She led major investigations into organized crime, cyber terrorism and national security threats, tackling everything from cold War espionage to modern day cyber attacks.

But Gina's impact didn't stop when she left the Bureau.

She's now a TEDx speaker, leadership coach, and host of the Making Maverick Moves podcast, empowering others to navigate chaos and lead with confidence.

Her story will inspire you to rewrite your own definition of fearless leadership.

Gina, your maverick moves have been huge.

You're a terrific example for everybody.

And Kathy, you said you had some thoughts of what maverick moves are to you.

You know, I think that maverick moves, I, I love that term, by the way.

It really is people, because I deal with a lot of women in shelters and recovery homes and, you know, kids that are people that are struggling and people when they look at me, because I have quite the history of changing my life, going from drunk and homeless to driving the biggest equipment in the world.

And I had a maverick move.

I had a point where I had to pivot with purpose and say, this stops here and I'm going to change.

Well, like I tell women in recovery or in the shelters, I says it doesn't have to be like, I didn't get there overnight, like, you know, one step that brought me to the next, into the next, to the next.

So whatever it is that.

It doesn't have to be some ginormous move.

It can be just, you know, what, walking out the door from your abusive ex.

That's a maverick move.

Like as.

Now that you can say it, that terminology.

It doesn't have to be something major like operating the biggest truck in the world.

It can just be whatever you feel is big in your life is the same.

Right?

And, and that is what's going to give you, you power.

That is what's going to give you confidence to take another, to do another move, to take another step.

And the more steps you take, the bigger, the more belief you have in yourself.

Because when you look back, you're like, hey, I just did this.

Hey.

Oh, dang.

Look what I just did.

You know, and that's how I think success keeps, keeps its momentum.

That is a remarkable story, Kathy, and that is so true, because how many maverick moves did you make to get to that point?

So if we just kind of make it, you know, step by step, one step after the other, then, then you can get there.

But I'll tell you, I had never been fired before, and that really was liberating for me in a way, because I think that was probably.

I mean.

Yeah, a lot of it stings.

It must have stung.

Oh, yeah, no, no, no, for sure.

But, you know, it's funny, I didn't feel shame at all because when I started talking about it publicly, you know, it was, it was, the purpose was, you know, there were bus operators who were afraid to go to work.

You know, like 79 people died on the metro system the year before.

So change definitely needed to be made.

And, and so when you're, you know, when you're out there, sometimes you choose a hill you're willing, you may be willing to die on, but sometimes that hill chooses you.

And when it does, you know, you're, you're, you have to react one way or the other.

So it was super liberating to be able to get to that point because now I can be unapologetically fearless because I've been through that and I know what it's like.

And I know I got back up and I know I continued down the road to make my dreams come true.

Been there, done that, got the T shirt.

Yeah.

And I think, yeah, people are afraid of the risk and certainly people have been unfairly terminated.

It Seems like that happens in a lot of companies today.

There isn't the value of loyalty.

Gone are the days where people can start a job at a company and retire and get the watch at the, what, the end of the 30 years or whatever people have.

There's a lot of transition.

There's so much chaos, constant change in our world.

And I think that maybe sometimes people are just kind of frozen in place because they don't know what move to make.

Yes, you're right.

The biggest killer of innovation is the status quo.

And that's, you know, that's what we have to choose.

Are we.

You know, a lot of times when you're working in an environment that does not empower you, that does not value you, that, you know, all you're trying to do is get through the day.

How much magic happens when a workforce is just trying to get through the day?

So when I do my keynote speaking, you know, I talk about leadership and how important it is to empower your people, because that's when the magic happens.

When the innovation start, when you allow people to be creative in the workplace, they can make their own decisions and they're not being micromanaged.

It's just I love to watch people grow in that way because once they start, you know, putting their own sweat and ideas into the greater good, everybody's better for it.

Not everybody's a good leader.

That is true.

Wow.

10:4 to that.

That is true.

We definitely need better leaders out there.

And, you know, people always ask me, you know, what, what's your favorite leadership book?

And it's like, I don't read leadership books because, you know, I think I've learned over time what works and what doesn't work.

And it's all about surrounding yourself with greatness.

You know, I always have had the template to my success has always been based on surrounding myself with really, really strong, amazing, innovative, creative people.

And, you know, when you're just trying to keep your racehorses on the, on the track, you know, that's when you're in a really, really good place, because if you just let them run, then they're going to run really fast and really long.

But if you beat your racehorses, you're not going to get anything out of them.

That's true.

And you want to encourage the innovation.

You want to encourage that spirit, that winning spirit, which I think a lot of companies and organizations have to kind of think about.

Some people are absolute control freaks, and they want to micromanage everything.

And if you want an innovator and somebody who's going to have that star power, they can't be micromanaged.

And a leader also has to be able to take maybe a contrary opinion.

If you're surrounded with yes men, yes women, that's not necessarily the best scenario either.

Yeah, no, I agree.

And people can go onto my LinkedIn.

Gina L. Osborne.

I've written several articles and I had a series of called Leadership Lessons from Horrible Bosses.

And micromanagement was the first part of it because that kills people.

And I know how I feel when I'm micromanaged.

It's like, okay, I'm just going to call it in because if I can't, if I'm not, my free thought is not appreciated here.

But you know, when you have an entire workforce full of, you know, a leader that's filled with fear, that's a micromanager that has to be in control all the time.

Yeah.

It's just ordinary.

It is.

I've never liked to be micromanaged.

I couldn't stand it as a kid.

I was a little rebel.

Shelly, you still are just saying, right?

True, true.

Yeah.

I mean, you have to be able to work as a team, certainly, but you don't forget the individual.

And I think so many of us feel like we're being gobbled up with all the technology and everything else.

The individuality and the communication is lacking.

Yes, yes, for sure.

And I think, you know, chaos is kind of the name of the game when you look at how we're packing our kids schedules, right?

You know, we take Julie over here and Sammy over here and we've, you know, we're packing these schedules so that we're kind of creating that environment of chaos.

And so what I like to share is that, you know, we are what we tolerate.

So any little tolerations that we have in our life, and it could be as small as boxes stacked up in the garage, that every time we drive into the garage, we see those boxes and then we get that heaviness feeling, oh my gosh, I got to unpack those boxes.

And it happens every time we pull into the garage as opposed to, okay, well, if I unpack the boxes, every time I pull into the garage, I'm going to feel that freedom that comes with, I don't have to look at that anymore.

And that kind of adds space.

So what I tell people is, okay, write down all of the things that you tolerate, from the little itty bitty things all the way to the major relationship situations that, you know, nobody wants to have to deal with at all.

And if you find, you know, just schedule time to eliminate these tolerations.

Okay, I'm going to unpack the boxes.

I'm going to fix the faucet in the sink.

I'm going to clean out the laundry room or what have you.

And then once you find yourself doing these things, I mean, just kind of gauge how does that feel.

And the less chaos you have in your life, the more you're going to be able to see around the corners to prevent bigger chaos.

But the name of the game when it comes to chaos is it doesn't take much for chaos to turn into a cris.

If it's left unchecked.

So if we want to kind of have a calmer life where we're not running and running and running, we need to prioritize getting rid of what we're tolerating, because that's going to add a lot more room and a lot more peace in our lives.

Amen.

Yep.

I think we have a tendency to tolerate too much and.

And certainly, yes, there is the chaos.

Actually, you know, I've been single for six years.

Six years now.

I think it's because I don't tolerate it anymore.

Right.

Yeah.

Do you feel a lot calmer and happier?

Oh, my God, yes.

And you know what the best part is?

Is that I don't let it stew.

I know exactly what I want, what I don't want, and if it ain't.

If it ain't meeting up to par.

See ya.

You know, it's just.

I just won't do it.

I don't have time.

Yeah, it's those boundaries.

Those are healthy boundaries that you've created.

So you don't.

Oh, God.

Actually, you know, speaking of boundaries, it took me till I was the age of 40 and in recovery, for the first time, I actually had to ask my counselor what that word mean.

I had no idea.

I was such a doormat my entire life.

Used to letting everybody conduct my life for me, make my choices for me.

That when it came to boundaries, I'm like, huh, What?

Like, it took me a long time to actually be.

To be able to say no and not try to explain my way out of it.

Like, just say no.

Right.

And that is the biggest freedom I've ever had in my life.

True.

Because you.

It's self respect.

Yep.

Yeah.

Stay tuned for more of women road warriors coming up.

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Welcome back to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson at Kathleen.

We're back with Gina Osborne, a true pioneer who traded in her FBI badge for a microphone and a mission.

As a former assistant special agent in charge, Gina spent years dismantling organized crime rings, investigating espionage, and leading elite cyber crime teams.

Now she's turning those experiences into life lessons and helping professionals transform fear into focus and adversity into action.

Through her Making Maverick Moves podcast and leadership work, Gina proves that courage isn't just about being fearless, it's about showing up.

Anyway, we've been really enjoying her insight as well as hearing about her incredible journey.

Gina in our previous segment, we were talking about boundaries and why they're healthy to have.

And it's hard sometimes, more than sometimes, for women to say no.

I don't think men have as hard a time doing that.

Yeah, but why do you think that is?

Because we're taught to be people pleasers and be polite for sure.

Kathy, why do you think we can't say no?

You know, that's a tough one.

I think that the being the, in, like, being such caregivers are, you know, in, in our DNA and the selflessness.

So it's constantly, constantly, you know, just doing all sorts of things and you automatically, I think people don't even realize that they're, they're taking on taking on taking on until it's too late, till.

They'Re burned out like I did.

You know, it took me till 40 to realize, you know, once I lost everything and I'm sitting there with no more nursing career, no more nothing, and I'm like, huh, you know, so busy taking care of everybody else that I completely forgot, like, that I even existed.

So I couldn't say no.

I didn't know how to say no.

No.

I was born with the expectation as a very young child that you never said no because you'd get a beating if you did.

So I guess it can be a lot of reasons.

Was there a moment that you're like, I'm not going to do this anymore?

Yeah.

I had a moment where a pivot with purpose is when I was standing drunk and homeless, having lost my nursing career.

I was standing beside a guy named Toothless Joe.

And it was like I saw so clear, I can't even explain it.

Like I look around and it's as if a whole cloud had shattered into a billion pieces.

And I saw so crystal clear that I had such a bigger purpose than what I was living.

And I look at that guy and I said, this is not my life.

I just made that pivot and I turned around and I walked straight to the hospital and I detox for two weeks.

Then I went to recovery and then I took my next step and next step and next step.

Right, so that was my maverick moment.

Yeah, yeah, it was.

That is true courage right there.

Yes.

And how do people find the courage?

I love this.

Leading through chaos, crisis and change.

That takes courage.

Yeah, but I think that goes along with, you know, building those muscles of putting yourself in a situation where you don't feel, you may not feel comfortable doing the TEDx talk.

I had always been afraid of public speaking.

I had always felt uncomfortable.

I had avoided it throughout my entire 28 year law enforcement career.

And it wasn't until after I retired that I started to, you know, go out there and, and I took acting classes and I did all of these things that was, that would make me feel less nervous and, and more comfortable to, to be able to tell my stories.

And I think it all culminate culminated with my TEDx talk.

Because, you know, I mean, it was like that was the real deal and I wasn't nervous at all.

And I think, you know, but what did that take?

It took me being uncomfortable several times.

Many, many times going on stage when I didn't want to do it and you know, second guessing myself the entire time I was on stage and maybe kicking myself after I got off thinking I could have done better.

But, but yeah, but if you kind of step outside of that box a little bit and it doesn't have to be a lot, just a little bit each time, that's how the courage rose.

Yeah, it's like coming from such an abusive background when I.

The first day I'm at work, standing beside the biggest truck in the world.

And when I say that, I'm not sure if you know what these mining trucks are.

The tires are 14ft tall.

It's two and a half stories to get to the cab where you sit.

When the box is up, it's five stories higher.

I drive a building.

And so that first day, coming from all this low self esteem and all these people telling my whole life, you're useless, you're stupid, you'll never amount to nothing, blah blah, blah.

And I'm standing beside this tire, looking up at the cab, thinking, oh my God, you want to talk about, step out of your comfort zone.

And it took me self talking my way every single day, sometimes multiple times a day, to get through it, to start believing.

And that like you said, courage grows.

The more you do it, the more it becomes more of a natural foundation for you.

Right?

And all you have to do is belief.

That's all, that's all it takes.

You gotta try, you gotta give it a shot.

Had I not even given a shot, I mean, I'd still be probably drinking my days away, you know what I mean?

But I just had enough.

And I think basically you have to make a decision is the bottom line.

Yeah, that's true.

And if you don't make a decision, that's a decision.

So it's better to actually have a.

Good way of looking at it.

Yeah, it's better to actively make a decision.

Because if you don't make a decision, you're really not in control, are you?

You know, it's.

You're just letting life happen.

And that's not why we're here.

And Gina, you have a lot of great messages.

How to rise to the top in a man's world and making the maverick moves.

Do you think all women can rise to the top in a man's world?

Well, first off, I don't believe it's a man's world.

And I think that goes back to when I was a little girl.

I think I was like 7 years old.

My dad left, my mom was left with my sister and me.

And you know, she had been a hairdresser before she got married.

And then she was home for 13 years as a housewife.

And she decided instead of, you know, going out because she was desperate, she wasn't getting alimony, she had to pay for these kids.

Right.

And she decided to go into real estate, you know, a commission based field.

And this is in 1973 or so.

Right.

So back in the day where I didn't even think women were even allowed to get loans on their own.

She woke us up every Saturday, and we had to go out and pass out her literature.

And in her first year, and the houses she was selling were $35,000 a piece, right.

And she sold over a million dollars in property her first year.

Wow.

I just had her on my podcast, and I asked her, I said, what made you think that you could do that?

And she said, I just believed it, and it is so powerful.

But I never grew up in a household where we talked about a glass ceiling.

I didn't learn about a glass ceiling until I was in basic training.

I had been pulled out of my bunker in the middle of the night to paint the drill sergeant's office.

And we're painting, and one of the other privates was talking about this glass ceiling.

And I'm like, no, that doesn't apply to me.

Just because it was never a reality for me.

Imposter syndrome.

You know, I'm not.

That doesn't apply to me.

So I think that's kind of my mechanism of dealing with things is that when everyone's sitting around complaining about how things are so unfair or how, you know, if only this would happen, or, you know, poor me because I'm a woman or what have you, I was out working and I was out making maverick moves.

And so I think that if we allow it to apply to us, it's gonna slow us down.

If we don't allow it to apply to us, we're gonna ignore it and not allow it to be an obstacle for us.

Good way of thinking.

You had a really great example with your mom, too.

So you could see that this really can work.

You could take a risk, and you can rise above this and really kick some butt.

Oh, yeah.

Which is what you've been doing all your life.

And your podcast, making maverick moves, you feature a lot of really cool people trailblazing figures who've made bold rule bending actions, and they shatter the barriers.

Where do people find your podcast?

So you can find me everywhere.

So Apple, Spotify, anywhere you get your podcasts, and you can also find me on TikTok and YouTube.

We videotape the interviews, and so they're out on YouTube, so you can watch the entire interviews.

But we've got some really amazing guests.

Guests this season.

And yeah, I'm super excited to share all of this great information that I've learned and that my guests share with our audience.

Very cool.

Well, your background has been amazing, and we've just gotten a snippet.

I'm such a badass.

Yeah, you really are.

You're badass, Gina.

This is so cool.

Well, you know, listening to Kathy's story, she's pretty much a badass.

And you too, Shelly, I think.

Thank you.

You road warriors are pretty amazing yourselves.

Yeah, we're trying to empower women because really, when you empower women, you empower the whole world because they raise families.

So you're empowering future generations, you know, for sure.

I totally agree that.

Agree with that.

And the fact that you all are listed so high on the top of empowerment, you know, for women, you're doing great work and you're helping so many people.

So thank you for that.

Well, thank you, Gina.

Yeah.

Kathy and I are both super excited about it.

I love.

I know she does, too.

Kathy, you love helping people.

And that's about, you know.

Yeah.

You know, and I.

And I say when I.

Because this happened with Toothless Joe back in 2011, and I always say, man, if only Toothless Joe could see me now.

Like, holy crap, there you go.

And the thing with that whole story is that the miracle was right around the corner.

And I would if somebody would have told me the same thing, oh, you know, in 10 years, you'll be doing this, this, and this.

I'd be like, yeah, writer.

Are you high?

Like, you know, I laughed him up the sidewalk.

So I tell that to women everywhere.

Just believe and do it.

Take that step.

Just believe.

I love that.

Yes.

For sure.

And it was.

It always is right around the corner.

But, you know, I think we kind of stay where we're at by.

By not believing or complaining or feeling sorry for ourselves.

But, you know, when we tend our minds to other things, the butterfly will come instead on our shoulder.

So go do some good.

Whenever you're waiting for something to happen or you're working towards something to happen and you're frustrated that it hasn't happened yet, focus on other things, and it'll be, like you said, right around the corner.

I love that.

Gina, where do people find you?

My website is gina l.osborne.com.

please connect with me on LinkedIn at Gina L. Osborne.

So, yeah, everything is Gina L. Osborne, and I'm very, very happy to help anyone who is on their leadership journey.

Thank you so much for being on our show.

This has been terrific.

My pleasure.

Thank you, ladies.

Gina Osborne's insights are powerful, and she's changing women's futures one person at a time with a powerful perspective that with every crisis comes an opportunity.

And you can lead fearlessly with a maverick mindset that requires the ability to make bold decisions with resilience and navigate uncertainty certainty.

It takes practice, but it can be done.

We've been very fortunate to tap into just some of Gina's wisdom.

If you want to learn more, be sure to check out gina's website@ginalosborne.com Osborne is spelled O S B O R n. Again, that's ginalosborne.com as well as her podcast Making Maverick Moves.

You won't regret it.

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You've been listening to World welcome to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

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