1 00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:04,819 Wrestling with your kids, trash-talking during a football game, screaming 2 00:00:04,819 --> 00:00:06,620 at someone while playing tag. 3 00:00:07,329 --> 00:00:10,539 On paper, these all look like obvious danger cues, right? 4 00:00:11,199 --> 00:00:12,939 So why do they feel so good? 5 00:00:13,849 --> 00:00:18,509 In this episode, we move into the second mixed state, play. 6 00:00:19,299 --> 00:00:24,099 What's actually happening on a nervous system level when you wrestle with your 7 00:00:24,099 --> 00:00:30,489 kids, trash talk during a game, or work on something difficult with a coworker? 8 00:00:31,549 --> 00:00:36,700 We'll look at why play needs safety and mobility at the same time, and 9 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:43,069 what changes when the play moves from your living room to the online world. 10 00:00:43,990 --> 00:00:46,629 And we'll also see what play looks like in two very different 11 00:00:46,639 --> 00:00:49,229 toddlers on the same soccer field. 12 00:00:49,458 --> 00:00:55,298 Hey, I'm Justin Sunseri, a therapist, self-regulation coach, and Polyvagal 13 00:00:55,348 --> 00:00:58,298 Institute editorial board member. 14 00:00:58,888 --> 00:01:04,698 You are listening to Stuck Not Broken, the podcast, but more specifically you're 15 00:01:04,698 --> 00:01:11,668 listening to Stuck Not Broken, Book One: Trauma and the Polyvagal Paradigm. 16 00:01:12,688 --> 00:01:17,718 One quick note before we, uh, continue with the play episode. 17 00:01:18,068 --> 00:01:21,538 This is an audiobook, and it's meant to be heard in order. 18 00:01:22,138 --> 00:01:25,328 Each episode builds on the ones right before it. 19 00:01:26,228 --> 00:01:30,248 So if you're just finding this show right now, go back. 20 00:01:30,248 --> 00:01:32,828 I w- at least I'd recommend, go back and start from the beginning. 21 00:01:33,158 --> 00:01:34,748 It's gonna make a lot more sense that way. 22 00:01:35,378 --> 00:01:39,468 And if you want to support this show or you'd rather read the book, this 23 00:01:39,468 --> 00:01:44,138 book and the next two are available now in both digital and softcover. 24 00:01:44,478 --> 00:01:48,308 I'll put a link in the description, and thank you so much ahead of 25 00:01:48,308 --> 00:01:51,388 time if you choose to support this show, uh, financially. 26 00:01:51,418 --> 00:01:52,558 I real- I really appreciate it. 27 00:01:53,798 --> 00:01:56,378 Last time we covered freeze. 28 00:01:57,238 --> 00:02:03,008 Flight or fight plus shutdown, which is this, like, tense immobilization. 29 00:02:04,008 --> 00:02:09,948 This time we're gonna look at something a lot lighter, play, which is safety plus 30 00:02:10,058 --> 00:02:13,408 flight-fight, connection plus mobility. 31 00:02:16,331 --> 00:02:17,461 What is play? 32 00:02:19,627 --> 00:02:23,007 Play is a combination of ventral vagal safety state activation 33 00:02:23,347 --> 00:02:25,487 with sympathetic flight fight. 34 00:02:26,257 --> 00:02:28,407 When we play, we're active, but we're safe. 35 00:02:28,437 --> 00:02:30,677 We're mobile and social at the same time. 36 00:02:31,327 --> 00:02:37,117 We use our face and our voice to signal safety to the other participant or 37 00:02:37,127 --> 00:02:39,847 participants who are engaged in the play. 38 00:02:40,273 --> 00:02:43,803 My children and I love to run around chasing each other. 39 00:02:44,093 --> 00:02:48,373 We play fight, we wrestle, we throw things, we scream, and we yell. 40 00:02:49,063 --> 00:02:54,133 All of these are potentially danger cues in and of themselves, but when you see our 41 00:02:54,133 --> 00:02:57,023 faces, you'll see smiles and eye crinkles. 42 00:02:57,083 --> 00:03:00,973 Um, our eyebrows are upright, and we share eye contact. 43 00:03:01,453 --> 00:03:06,383 Our ears are still attuned to human voice, so discussing the game's rules or creating 44 00:03:06,383 --> 00:03:08,663 new ones on the fly is not an issue. 45 00:03:09,303 --> 00:03:13,603 Our voices have a lot of range, along with laughter as well. 46 00:03:14,433 --> 00:03:17,903 So there's tons of safety cues involved in our mobilization. 47 00:03:18,923 --> 00:03:22,873 Play can also involve two nervous systems sharing attention, even if 48 00:03:22,873 --> 00:03:25,693 the obvious social cues are missing. 49 00:03:26,523 --> 00:03:32,073 Two people can share in activities like working on a puzzle or competing in 50 00:03:32,073 --> 00:03:35,133 chess without obvious pro-social cues. 51 00:03:35,773 --> 00:03:40,903 They utilize shared time, turn-taking, agreed-upon rules, and social norms. 52 00:03:41,593 --> 00:03:47,243 These require the individuals to have enough safety access, uh, to engage with 53 00:03:47,243 --> 00:03:49,623 each other without defensive activation. 54 00:03:51,139 --> 00:03:55,719 Working on a project with a coworker, that can be a form of play, and we 55 00:03:55,719 --> 00:03:59,809 might wanna call that productivity or motivation instead, but it's play. 56 00:04:00,049 --> 00:04:04,659 For example, Mercedes Corona was my podcast host and colleague years ago. 57 00:04:05,159 --> 00:04:08,289 We developed a curriculum, and we presented it to our school 58 00:04:08,289 --> 00:04:09,669 district staff colleagues. 59 00:04:10,169 --> 00:04:14,649 It is a lot of work, but the two of us are genuinely… We enjoyed the 60 00:04:14,659 --> 00:04:19,299 shared experience and consistently provided, uh, safety cues to each other. 61 00:04:19,969 --> 00:04:23,009 We exchanged ideas back and forth, challenged each other, 62 00:04:23,129 --> 00:04:24,149 and encouraged each other. 63 00:04:24,959 --> 00:04:30,979 We played for all intents and purposes, even though we were working. 64 00:04:32,329 --> 00:04:37,839 Play also extends into sports, uh, mobilized, shared activity 65 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:39,449 that involves safety cues. 66 00:04:40,259 --> 00:04:46,059 Of course, the other team is not looking to provide safety cues, but there's 67 00:04:46,059 --> 00:04:51,919 a significant difference between an opposing player using intimidation and 68 00:04:51,919 --> 00:04:54,219 one that actually wants to hurt you. 69 00:04:55,129 --> 00:05:00,269 We can see intimidation, trash-talking, and overt aggression within the 70 00:05:00,269 --> 00:05:02,769 rules and norms of many sports. 71 00:05:03,719 --> 00:05:08,419 Acting within the confines of those norms doesn't trigger a distinct 72 00:05:08,939 --> 00:05:15,369 neuroception of danger, but acting outside of those norms definitely can. 73 00:05:15,699 --> 00:05:20,559 For example, in American football, the defense is allowed to tackle 74 00:05:20,569 --> 00:05:22,459 the quarterback on the offense. 75 00:05:23,129 --> 00:05:28,029 If the defense tackles the quarterback on the offense before he throws 76 00:05:28,029 --> 00:05:31,039 the ball, that's called a sack, and there's no penalty for it. 77 00:05:32,029 --> 00:05:35,579 But if the defense tackles the quarterback after he's thrown the 78 00:05:35,579 --> 00:05:40,439 ball, this is not a sack, and it will likely result in a penalty. 79 00:05:41,179 --> 00:05:45,239 It's basically against the rules to tackle the quarterback after he 80 00:05:45,239 --> 00:05:50,759 has thrown the ball or touch him on the helmet or below the knees or to 81 00:05:50,759 --> 00:05:52,019 land on him with your body weight. 82 00:05:52,129 --> 00:05:58,189 L-let's just say there is a lot of rules in place to protect the quarterback. 83 00:06:00,165 --> 00:06:04,905 Even in this situation where one tackle is okay, one tackle is not, every 84 00:06:04,905 --> 00:06:06,545 contextual piece can be the same. 85 00:06:07,045 --> 00:06:12,145 The same defensive player can make the same tackle on the same quarterback 86 00:06:12,155 --> 00:06:13,765 in the same spot on the field. 87 00:06:14,675 --> 00:06:19,415 But one type of tackle is okay and the other one is not. 88 00:06:20,545 --> 00:06:23,605 All the players know this, and they agree to the rules. 89 00:06:24,115 --> 00:06:29,025 A sack is fine, but the penalized tackle is not. 90 00:06:29,885 --> 00:06:34,275 In fact, the offensive players on the quarterback's team, the offensive 91 00:06:34,275 --> 00:06:36,465 players take this penalty very seriously. 92 00:06:37,025 --> 00:06:41,345 They see tackling the quarterback after he throws it as a direct 93 00:06:41,355 --> 00:06:43,355 insult or threat to one of their own. 94 00:06:44,065 --> 00:06:47,755 The offensive players will come to the quarterback's aid and use 95 00:06:47,765 --> 00:06:52,275 physical and verbal intimidation on the offending defensive player. 96 00:06:53,205 --> 00:06:55,985 Then the defensive players come to the aid of their teammate, and 97 00:06:55,985 --> 00:07:00,485 a mob of players shove each other for a few seconds, and then it gets 98 00:07:00,485 --> 00:07:02,465 broken up and normal play resumes. 99 00:07:03,135 --> 00:07:06,495 So what's happening in this situation? 100 00:07:07,825 --> 00:07:13,915 The offensive players neurocept the penalty as an actual danger, a 101 00:07:13,965 --> 00:07:16,225 direct attack on their quarterback. 102 00:07:17,175 --> 00:07:22,715 They lose access to their safety state, and their play becomes something else. 103 00:07:23,615 --> 00:07:28,165 It turns into defensive activation, resulting in yelling and shoving. 104 00:07:29,125 --> 00:07:33,385 Then the defensive teammates neurocept the danger from the offense, resulting 105 00:07:33,385 --> 00:07:35,195 in them yelling and shoving as well. 106 00:07:36,115 --> 00:07:40,545 Both teams basically lose access to their safety state, and 107 00:07:40,545 --> 00:07:42,045 so they're no longer playing. 108 00:07:42,055 --> 00:07:44,195 They're actually threats to each other. 109 00:07:45,285 --> 00:07:48,225 Play needs the safety state access. 110 00:07:48,289 --> 00:07:52,009 if the safety state's inactive, defensive activation dominates. 111 00:07:52,279 --> 00:07:56,669 If defensive activation dominates, defensive behaviors occur, like 112 00:07:56,679 --> 00:08:01,749 hitting, yelling, running away, or giving up and isolating. 113 00:08:04,054 --> 00:08:05,499 The importance of play 114 00:08:07,046 --> 00:08:10,906 Play exercises the ability to shift up and down the polyvagal 115 00:08:10,916 --> 00:08:12,866 ladder while anchored in safety. 116 00:08:13,596 --> 00:08:17,466 We use mobility, flight or fight, when playing, like running down a 117 00:08:17,466 --> 00:08:19,776 soccer field or tackling in football. 118 00:08:20,476 --> 00:08:24,746 We may also use shutdown when immobile in hide-and-seek or 119 00:08:24,746 --> 00:08:27,296 even freeze in freeze tag. 120 00:08:28,056 --> 00:08:31,566 Because of the safety anchoring, we can move freely up and down 121 00:08:31,566 --> 00:08:35,416 the ladder, building our ability to handle these shifts over time. 122 00:08:36,266 --> 00:08:40,676 Simultaneously, we strengthen the safety state over time, building 123 00:08:40,766 --> 00:08:43,146 self-regulation over time. 124 00:08:44,266 --> 00:08:46,996 Play is essential in children. 125 00:08:47,976 --> 00:08:49,576 Oh, everybody, but especially children. 126 00:08:50,046 --> 00:08:51,576 It's not just about having fun. 127 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:54,966 Play is how they build the strength of their social engagement system. 128 00:08:55,716 --> 00:08:58,576 Adults can also build their safety state through play. 129 00:08:59,196 --> 00:09:02,916 But with children, it provides the foundation for self-regulation 130 00:09:03,426 --> 00:09:05,386 to build on in the future. 131 00:09:05,476 --> 00:09:06,136 Super important. 132 00:09:06,986 --> 00:09:11,266 Parents and other caretakers must allow children ample time and opportunities 133 00:09:11,266 --> 00:09:17,266 to play with their peers and safe others in their lives, like family members. 134 00:09:19,407 --> 00:09:20,917 Play in video games 135 00:09:21,981 --> 00:09:24,501 Play can look many different ways. 136 00:09:24,791 --> 00:09:28,341 Dance, sports, competition, puzzles, role-playing, theater, 137 00:09:28,901 --> 00:09:31,331 and I'd argue even video games. 138 00:09:31,411 --> 00:09:38,401 But let's differentiate between in-person and isolated online gaming. 139 00:09:39,611 --> 00:09:45,311 In-person video gaming can have a huge social, fun, or competitive components. 140 00:09:46,381 --> 00:09:50,661 If you can work with a teammate in a video game, you'll use 141 00:09:50,661 --> 00:09:52,581 strategizing and problem-solving. 142 00:09:53,421 --> 00:09:57,721 You need to be anchored in safety to use these cognitive skills, but you 143 00:09:57,721 --> 00:10:01,651 also need the competitive edge that comes from the sympathetic state. 144 00:10:02,791 --> 00:10:06,981 There's also opportunity for social connection, like smiling 145 00:10:06,981 --> 00:10:09,081 with each other between rounds. 146 00:10:09,981 --> 00:10:14,641 You use your voice to talk with other players, uh, working together 147 00:10:14,751 --> 00:10:17,991 on a shared focus or a shared goal. 148 00:10:19,281 --> 00:10:22,871 Are video games the same as dance or baseball? 149 00:10:23,831 --> 00:10:24,501 I don't think so. 150 00:10:24,691 --> 00:10:29,481 But I do think there's value to gaming, especially if that's the best 151 00:10:29,541 --> 00:10:31,931 option that you have at your disposal. 152 00:10:32,781 --> 00:10:36,291 If you're a parent who can't mobilize on a sunny day due to, 153 00:10:36,401 --> 00:10:41,731 to a chronic illness, then maybe you can play video games instead. 154 00:10:42,971 --> 00:10:48,561 Yeah, a puzzle or a coloring book is also a great option, maybe a better one, but 155 00:10:48,591 --> 00:10:51,291 video games are fair game, in my opinion. 156 00:10:51,821 --> 00:10:53,941 And yeah, I'm kinda sorry about that pun. 157 00:10:55,081 --> 00:11:02,021 In my home, Mario Kart is a common way for my family of four to connect through play. 158 00:11:02,851 --> 00:11:07,121 We soothe each other's high arousal states through social interaction, 159 00:11:07,591 --> 00:11:11,571 like eye contact and vocal prosody, at least between, uh, races. 160 00:11:12,271 --> 00:11:16,201 We also antagonize each other with taunts, but we stay 161 00:11:16,201 --> 00:11:18,421 within family and social norms. 162 00:11:19,983 --> 00:11:24,563 Games like Mario Kart and Animal Crossing are ones that we can play 163 00:11:24,563 --> 00:11:29,423 together in the same room, exchanging safety cues, uh, amongst each other. 164 00:11:30,483 --> 00:11:36,883 But other games, like Fortnite, require my kids and me to separate into 165 00:11:36,883 --> 00:11:39,263 different rooms to play together online. 166 00:11:40,173 --> 00:11:45,483 Fortnite is still fun, but it's much more competitive than 167 00:11:45,593 --> 00:11:47,073 casual gaming in the same room. 168 00:11:47,943 --> 00:11:51,813 My kids and I can still play in the polyvagal sense of the word. 169 00:11:52,173 --> 00:11:57,283 We can still play through Fortnite, but access to safety deteriorates 170 00:11:57,323 --> 00:11:58,903 compared to other games. 171 00:11:59,693 --> 00:12:03,813 The kids bicker over who holds what weapons or brag about 172 00:12:03,813 --> 00:12:05,883 who has the most eliminations. 173 00:12:07,503 --> 00:12:08,403 It's typically my daughter. 174 00:12:08,403 --> 00:12:09,243 She's pretty awesome at it. 175 00:12:09,806 --> 00:12:15,336 Online gaming in isolation is different from in-person play, like the Fortnite 176 00:12:15,336 --> 00:12:17,076 example compared to Mario Kart. 177 00:12:17,826 --> 00:12:19,946 The players don't see each other's faces. 178 00:12:20,486 --> 00:12:24,096 There is some opportunity for some vocal exchange, but not a whole lot, 179 00:12:24,106 --> 00:12:28,086 and not necessarily, since, uh, many players don't even use their microphones. 180 00:12:28,956 --> 00:12:32,586 And because there are no visual safety cues from the other players, 181 00:12:33,156 --> 00:12:37,456 uh, vocal cues such as yelling and groans and swearing and bragging and 182 00:12:37,456 --> 00:12:41,866 taunting and insults, these are more easily neurocepted as danger cues, 183 00:12:42,446 --> 00:12:48,806 thereby shifting the participants from potential p-play into more likely fight 184 00:12:48,856 --> 00:12:50,876 or maybe flight or maybe shutdown. 185 00:12:53,150 --> 00:12:55,177 Mobilization without safety. 186 00:12:56,817 --> 00:13:02,177 Individuals in a defensive state may be unable to handle the sympathetic 187 00:13:02,247 --> 00:13:07,847 mobilization of play while also accessing their safety system. 188 00:13:08,567 --> 00:13:13,257 They mobilize, but they're not able to contain their flight or fight behavior to 189 00:13:13,257 --> 00:13:16,727 use for pro-social, playful interaction. 190 00:13:17,557 --> 00:13:18,717 You can see the problem here. 191 00:13:19,297 --> 00:13:24,027 This person cannot exist in their safety state, but they need to for play. 192 00:13:24,767 --> 00:13:27,797 Their defensive activation is out of control, but it needs 193 00:13:27,797 --> 00:13:29,397 to be under control for play. 194 00:13:30,247 --> 00:13:35,677 They need both mobility and safety at the same time, but they 195 00:13:35,677 --> 00:13:37,907 struggle to hold both of them. 196 00:13:38,837 --> 00:13:42,977 Have you ever heard of kids who don't play well with others? 197 00:13:43,907 --> 00:13:44,767 These are those kids. 198 00:13:45,447 --> 00:13:50,607 Their defensive state is active without the safety state, resulting 199 00:13:50,607 --> 00:13:52,597 in breaking norms and rules. 200 00:13:53,417 --> 00:13:57,737 These kids lack self-regulation and struggle to accept the social 201 00:13:57,737 --> 00:14:01,267 cues of play from their peers. 202 00:14:02,023 --> 00:14:05,003 Kids and adults who push the limit of acceptable play 203 00:14:05,013 --> 00:14:06,273 will end up hurting someone. 204 00:14:07,063 --> 00:14:08,573 They won't feel guilt over it either. 205 00:14:09,153 --> 00:14:11,063 They'll blame the person or shame them. 206 00:14:12,143 --> 00:14:15,203 You need access to the safety state to empathize and to feel 207 00:14:15,203 --> 00:14:17,053 sorrow for hurting another. 208 00:14:18,173 --> 00:14:23,003 This individual has less access to the safety state and therefore 209 00:14:23,013 --> 00:14:26,263 does not feel empathy or sorrow. 210 00:14:26,273 --> 00:14:29,673 At least not in the, in that moment where they've lost access to safety. 211 00:14:30,973 --> 00:14:31,663 All right, story time. 212 00:14:31,973 --> 00:14:35,743 It is 2017, and I am at my son's first soccer game. 213 00:14:35,923 --> 00:14:38,283 It's a field with 12 toddlers on it. 214 00:14:38,903 --> 00:14:42,583 There's a mix of nervous system states present, as you can guess. 215 00:14:43,063 --> 00:14:46,803 Many have dropped down their ladder and want their parents, refuse to go on the 216 00:14:46,803 --> 00:14:50,963 field, need something like a snack or water, or they're just getting worn out. 217 00:14:51,723 --> 00:14:56,253 There are parents in the field, coaches, and a couple of refs, and 218 00:14:56,313 --> 00:14:58,283 everyone is telling the kids what to do. 219 00:14:59,443 --> 00:15:03,513 It is a fairly dysregulated state of affairs. 220 00:15:05,587 --> 00:15:10,077 One boy in particular is highly mobilized on the field when he's not 221 00:15:10,077 --> 00:15:15,727 supposed to be, not following directives from the coach or the ref, and he is 222 00:15:15,727 --> 00:15:18,387 touching the ball with his hands, which you're not allowed to do in soccer. 223 00:15:19,287 --> 00:15:22,987 He's just moving around without much safety state active. 224 00:15:23,757 --> 00:15:26,317 His safe and social system is not developed enough to 225 00:15:26,317 --> 00:15:27,947 inhibit the impulse to move. 226 00:15:28,817 --> 00:15:34,367 He crashes into other kids and falls repeatedly as well. 227 00:15:34,747 --> 00:15:36,457 The falls are, are fake, by the way. 228 00:15:36,936 --> 00:15:40,866 I witnessed one thing that might shed some light on this particular 229 00:15:41,336 --> 00:15:43,106 soccer player's dysregulation. 230 00:15:43,876 --> 00:15:48,826 At one point, the child had fallen down and stayed on the ground 231 00:15:48,846 --> 00:15:52,686 despite the game around him and the adults telling him to get up. 232 00:15:53,496 --> 00:15:55,076 He's not in a tantrum or a meltdown. 233 00:15:55,086 --> 00:15:58,026 He's just laying down on the grass. 234 00:15:58,836 --> 00:16:03,706 His dad walks onto the field for the third time to correct his behavior. 235 00:16:04,136 --> 00:16:08,306 The little soccer player gets up with his arms up, waiting to be held by his dad. 236 00:16:09,006 --> 00:16:15,196 But the dad spins the kid around and gives him a little push back onto the field. 237 00:16:16,116 --> 00:16:19,676 The dad showed no emotion or expression, didn't say anything, and 238 00:16:19,706 --> 00:16:27,386 provided his son with no support, encouragement, or any obvious signals 239 00:16:27,386 --> 00:16:30,826 of safety or love or encouragement. 240 00:16:32,316 --> 00:16:36,266 I have no idea what life is like for that kid and his dad. 241 00:16:36,576 --> 00:16:38,856 Maybe dad is typically more supportive of his child. 242 00:16:39,616 --> 00:16:43,286 But this little window gives a glimpse into the possible lack of 243 00:16:43,286 --> 00:16:48,346 support the little soccer player gets from his dad, the lack of emotional 244 00:16:48,346 --> 00:16:52,536 development, the lack of safety pathways being nurtured in essence. 245 00:16:53,976 --> 00:16:58,006 In that moment, it made sense to me why the child was so dysregulated, 246 00:16:58,186 --> 00:17:03,466 especially in an environment surrounded by other dysregulated nervous systems 247 00:17:03,886 --> 00:17:06,766 and noise, heat, and eyes watching. 248 00:17:07,796 --> 00:17:12,106 This boy was on the field and dressed for soccer, but was he playing? 249 00:17:12,756 --> 00:17:13,726 No, not really. 250 00:17:15,688 --> 00:17:20,728 Another time during another soccer game, maybe the same one, 251 00:17:20,748 --> 00:17:21,748 actually, I don't, I don't know. 252 00:17:22,528 --> 00:17:27,778 Uh, but there was a little girl, and she stood frozen in the middle of the field. 253 00:17:28,308 --> 00:17:32,078 She didn't wanna go out in the first place, and she resisted her mother with 254 00:17:32,078 --> 00:17:34,728 a quiet protest before the game began. 255 00:17:35,728 --> 00:17:40,298 Her body was tense as her mother carried her out and placed her 256 00:17:40,308 --> 00:17:41,338 in the middle of the field. 257 00:17:42,258 --> 00:17:46,248 When the initial ball was kicked and the kids started scrambling after 258 00:17:46,248 --> 00:17:52,148 it, this particular little girl just stayed in her spot, frozen in place. 259 00:17:53,048 --> 00:17:57,058 Her muscles were tense, her eyes were wide, and she avoided 260 00:17:57,528 --> 00:17:59,058 all potential eye contact. 261 00:18:00,148 --> 00:18:02,448 She seemed unable to hear the sounds around her. 262 00:18:03,108 --> 00:18:08,328 Her mother and the coach attempted to use their vocal prosody to coax 263 00:18:08,328 --> 00:18:14,758 her into participating, but these attempts were futile and led nowhere. 264 00:18:16,268 --> 00:18:20,618 This little girl was in a state of mobilization, evidenced by the 265 00:18:21,018 --> 00:18:22,858 muscle tension and shallow breathing. 266 00:18:23,948 --> 00:18:29,418 But she was also in a state of immobilization, evidenced by not moving. 267 00:18:30,658 --> 00:18:33,038 She was in a freeze state, like we talked about in the last one. 268 00:18:34,048 --> 00:18:39,088 Her body prepared to both run and shut down at the same time, not 269 00:18:39,098 --> 00:18:44,698 out of excitement, but out of fear, maybe of the crowd or failure or 270 00:18:44,698 --> 00:18:46,428 immense pressure from her parents. 271 00:18:46,438 --> 00:18:46,878 Who knows? 272 00:18:47,958 --> 00:18:52,308 When her mom escorted her off the field, she softened immediately in 273 00:18:52,308 --> 00:18:54,778 relief as her mom held her in her lap. 274 00:18:55,968 --> 00:19:01,488 The girl was also dressed for soccer and on the field, but was she playing? 275 00:19:02,968 --> 00:19:03,698 Obviously not. 276 00:19:05,927 --> 00:19:08,744 Why is mobilization unsafe? 277 00:19:10,327 --> 00:19:17,977 Well, anything is unsafe without access to the safety state or without the ability 278 00:19:18,017 --> 00:19:22,717 to accept safety cues from another person. 279 00:19:23,074 --> 00:19:25,824 When there's danger, we use flight or fight mobility. 280 00:19:26,524 --> 00:19:28,144 That's what we evolved to do. 281 00:19:29,024 --> 00:19:31,044 Survive danger through movement. 282 00:19:31,964 --> 00:19:36,524 Thanks to the newer social engagement system, mammals can contain or 283 00:19:36,974 --> 00:19:41,484 repurpose their flight or fight activation for pro-social behavior. 284 00:19:42,684 --> 00:19:45,854 If we didn't have a safety system, we'd all be either 285 00:19:46,244 --> 00:19:48,604 mobile or immobile, like lizards. 286 00:19:49,574 --> 00:19:51,304 The mixed state of play would not exist. 287 00:19:51,774 --> 00:19:52,764 Lizards don't play. 288 00:19:53,614 --> 00:19:58,614 If we access the flight or fight mobilization system to play without safety 289 00:19:58,614 --> 00:20:04,214 activated along with it, we're simply left with mobilized defensive behaviors, 290 00:20:05,244 --> 00:20:08,004 which is fight or flight by itself. 291 00:20:09,444 --> 00:20:13,414 The safety system needs to be active for play. 292 00:20:14,514 --> 00:20:18,044 If safety is not active, it's simply not play. 293 00:20:18,894 --> 00:20:22,734 The result is an increased heart rate without the social engagement 294 00:20:22,734 --> 00:20:27,764 system necessary to regulate the flight or fight impulses. 295 00:20:29,464 --> 00:20:34,784 If safety is inactive, we perceive the environment and others as threatening. 296 00:20:36,374 --> 00:20:40,074 Our perceptual filter of safety is gone. 297 00:20:41,344 --> 00:20:47,244 A person in a defensive state has lost their ability to recognize safe facial 298 00:20:47,254 --> 00:20:50,104 cues that are necessary during play. 299 00:20:51,254 --> 00:20:54,614 They're also not providing those same facial cues. 300 00:20:55,344 --> 00:20:59,354 This person is not using vocal prosody to suggest they're a safe mammal. 301 00:21:00,174 --> 00:21:04,564 They've lost the ability to use their full range of voice, signaling 302 00:21:04,664 --> 00:21:06,844 safety to the other parties involved. 303 00:21:08,184 --> 00:21:12,064 We need our safety state active to repurpose flight or fight 304 00:21:12,104 --> 00:21:15,064 activation for social engagement. 305 00:21:16,044 --> 00:21:20,974 Once safety is active, we can mobilize with others without risk of 306 00:21:21,704 --> 00:21:25,854 dysregulated flight or fight, as long as the safety state is active enough. 307 00:21:26,934 --> 00:21:30,314 We can also use our mobilized safety state when we're alone. 308 00:21:31,184 --> 00:21:37,774 Safety plus flight or fight without others looks like exercise or focused motivation. 309 00:21:38,654 --> 00:21:43,994 We mobilize to meet personal goals, like in business or, or fitness. 310 00:21:44,629 --> 00:21:49,709 So that's play, safety plus flight or fight, connection plus 311 00:21:49,899 --> 00:21:53,739 mobility, plus a safe other as well. 312 00:21:54,539 --> 00:21:57,969 And without the safe other, we could just call it motivation. 313 00:21:59,799 --> 00:22:07,709 Next time, stillness and intimacy, the mixed state of safety plus 314 00:22:07,769 --> 00:22:14,279 shutdown, and what it looks like when immobility is actually safe, 315 00:22:14,289 --> 00:22:16,079 when it's okay to immobilize. 316 00:22:17,459 --> 00:22:21,319 If you wanna take this chapter further, the written book has journal 317 00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:26,239 reflections for it, along with primary source quotes and no ads. 318 00:22:26,999 --> 00:22:31,659 It and the next two books are linked in the description if 319 00:22:31,659 --> 00:22:33,259 you'd like to support the show. 320 00:22:34,009 --> 00:22:35,649 Thank you so much for listening.