1 00:00:01,370 --> 00:00:03,830 Hi, and welcome to Business Without Bullshit. 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,210 I'm Pippa Sturt, and alongside me is my co host, Gemma Hotter. 3 00:00:07,630 --> 00:00:08,210 Hi Gemma. 4 00:00:08,219 --> 00:00:08,580 Hi Pippa. 5 00:00:09,639 --> 00:00:11,460 And today we're joined by John West. 6 00:00:11,870 --> 00:00:20,900 John West is Chief Development Officer of CyMar, a biotechnology research company focusing on type 2 diabetes prevention and treatment. 7 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:21,669 Hi John. 8 00:00:22,939 --> 00:00:22,990 Hello. 9 00:00:23,130 --> 00:00:28,319 Um, so John, we always start with um, sort of basic question, what's keeping you up at night? 10 00:00:28,564 --> 00:00:32,265 Oh, well, what's keeping me up at night is, uh, is fundraising. 11 00:00:32,335 --> 00:00:34,464 Cymar is a pre revenue company. 12 00:00:34,565 --> 00:00:34,765 Oh, okay. 13 00:00:34,785 --> 00:00:42,434 And, uh, we are commercializing four products for the detection, prevention, and reversal of type 2 diabetes. 14 00:00:42,684 --> 00:00:46,695 All four of those products need to go through a regulatory pathway. 15 00:00:46,705 --> 00:00:51,375 It's, uh, the FDA in the States and, uh, Health Canada, uh, here in Canada. 16 00:00:51,675 --> 00:00:56,825 And that can take ten years and over a hundred million dollars to get those products to market. 17 00:00:56,835 --> 00:00:58,585 So is that because they're medicines, or? 18 00:00:59,115 --> 00:00:59,714 Yeah, that's right. 19 00:00:59,725 --> 00:01:03,874 Two of them are nutraceuticals, so more like vitamins, and they have an easier path to market. 20 00:01:04,145 --> 00:01:09,539 And then, uh, two of them are pharmaceuticals, so those go through three phases of clinical trials. 21 00:01:09,700 --> 00:01:11,250 And is this kind of groundbreaking? 22 00:01:11,250 --> 00:01:15,190 At the moment there's nothing that cures type 2 diabetes, right? 23 00:01:15,580 --> 00:01:16,230 That's right. 24 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,910 Uh, talking about a cure is, is a pretty big statement. 25 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:26,280 So, what we have found is, uh, 30 years ago there was a discovery in the laboratory that insulin is not plain alone. 26 00:01:26,470 --> 00:01:29,270 So, most of us know that diabetes has to do with insulin. 27 00:01:29,270 --> 00:01:31,600 If you don't have enough of it, then your blood sugar goes up. 28 00:01:31,615 --> 00:01:36,505 Your pancreas produces this insulin, and, uh, so it's vital for, uh, for your health. 29 00:01:36,745 --> 00:01:41,655 But what we, we've discovered is that there's another hormone produced by the liver, we call it hepatilin. 30 00:01:41,964 --> 00:01:45,764 And this hormone is, uh, released, uh, when you eat. 31 00:01:46,004 --> 00:01:51,565 It reduces your blood sugar at two thirds of the firepower of what we thought was, uh, happening from insulin is happening. 32 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:52,550 from hepatolin. 33 00:01:52,810 --> 00:02:02,600 And, uh, the most important part is that we've learned that insulin is taking all that sugar from your blood and storing it in fat, where hepatolin is partitioning those nutrients into muscle. 34 00:02:02,630 --> 00:02:03,539 So what's this called? 35 00:02:03,539 --> 00:02:04,309 Hepatolin? 36 00:02:04,810 --> 00:02:05,260 Hepatolin. 37 00:02:05,270 --> 00:02:06,629 So it's insulin from the liver. 38 00:02:06,650 --> 00:02:08,559 So hepa, like liver. 39 00:02:08,859 --> 00:02:10,130 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 40 00:02:10,189 --> 00:02:11,490 From the Greeks, ladies and gentlemen. 41 00:02:11,845 --> 00:02:16,875 The discovery was, uh, was, like most discoveries in science, was completely accidental. 42 00:02:17,125 --> 00:02:22,095 The chief scientific officer of our company is not a diabetologist, he's a liver expert. 43 00:02:22,265 --> 00:02:22,445 Right. 44 00:02:22,465 --> 00:02:30,955 And he was, uh, this is a very shortened story, uh, but, uh, for brevity, he was trying to understand How the body knows how to regrow the liver. 45 00:02:31,015 --> 00:02:33,335 The liver is one of the only organs in the body that can grow back. 46 00:02:33,385 --> 00:02:35,025 You can take half of it out and it grows back. 47 00:02:35,115 --> 00:02:39,905 I think we all know that from things like Grey's Anatomy and stuff like that. 48 00:02:39,905 --> 00:02:39,935 Yes. 49 00:02:40,315 --> 00:02:40,835 They liver. 50 00:02:41,025 --> 00:02:48,265 And they've known for, you know, since, uh, I think there's, uh, you know, Greek legends about, uh, a crow, uh, that, you know, would peck out the liver and would grow back. 51 00:02:48,725 --> 00:02:52,234 So, um, so for forever we've known that the liver grows back, but we... 52 00:02:52,459 --> 00:02:54,090 Didn't know science didn't understand. 53 00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:55,170 Why does it grow back? 54 00:02:55,170 --> 00:02:56,780 How does it know how to start growing back? 55 00:02:56,910 --> 00:03:03,019 How does it know when to stop and so it was thought well, maybe it's you know, maybe there's signals Maybe it's nerve signals. 56 00:03:03,019 --> 00:03:06,370 Maybe the brain knows and so our chief scientific officer. 57 00:03:06,370 --> 00:03:06,670 Dr. 58 00:03:06,670 --> 00:03:18,975 Lott He was working in basic research trying to figure this out so he would cut the nerves going to the liver in rats and then You know, sew the rat up, come back a few weeks later, see if the liver was able to regenerate. 59 00:03:19,045 --> 00:03:25,895 And it was, so it's not nerves, but all of those rats then developed type 2 diabetes, which was, uh, shouldn't have happened. 60 00:03:25,904 --> 00:03:30,035 There should be no reason why cutting nerves to the liver would cause type 2 diabetes. 61 00:03:30,335 --> 00:03:35,165 And so this started an odyssey for over 30 years now, where he's trying to figure out what's happening. 62 00:03:35,175 --> 00:03:39,535 And now we've known, now we understand that these nerves are controlling the release of a hormone. 63 00:03:39,865 --> 00:03:41,935 That hormone is released only when you eat. 64 00:03:42,125 --> 00:03:45,235 It's very fast acting, it's only around for 30 to 90 minutes. 65 00:03:45,495 --> 00:03:49,595 And, uh, if you have it, uh, you're lean and more muscular. 66 00:03:49,865 --> 00:03:57,950 As you lose it, you become, or your body composition becomes more fat, which is why we're seeing Uh, people with obesity then, uh, move to diabetes. 67 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,330 So, one of the interesting insights here is that being overweight doesn't cause diabetes. 68 00:04:02,350 --> 00:04:06,100 It's an underlying cause that starts body composition changing. 69 00:04:06,470 --> 00:04:14,299 And as we get older, and as we have more stress, and as we consume sugar, all of those have been shown in the laboratory to, to degrade the release of, of hepatolin. 70 00:04:14,590 --> 00:04:16,690 And, uh, and then you have to rely more on insulin. 71 00:04:16,700 --> 00:04:20,480 And the insulin only has one place to put it, which is into, is into body fat. 72 00:04:20,845 --> 00:04:25,005 And that underlying cause that you mentioned, that kind of kicks it all off, is that genetic? 73 00:04:25,015 --> 00:04:30,445 Because I thought type 1 diabetes was genetic, but type 2 wasn't, am I completely wrong? 74 00:04:30,930 --> 00:04:32,050 No, you're absolutely correct. 75 00:04:32,050 --> 00:04:35,050 So type 1 diabetes is a, uh, is a genetic disease. 76 00:04:35,050 --> 00:04:42,409 We used to call it, uh, juvenile diabetes, but unfortunately, uh, we have many young people, very young people, children developing type 2 diabetes. 77 00:04:42,449 --> 00:04:51,620 So type 1 diabetes is a autoimmune disease, where your body is attacking the cells in the pancreas that are producing insulin. 78 00:04:51,860 --> 00:04:53,620 So you no longer can produce insulin. 79 00:04:53,630 --> 00:04:56,660 So you with type 1? 80 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:57,600 No, don't produce it at all. 81 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,260 And you have to, you have to inject it. 82 00:04:59,789 --> 00:05:03,039 Uh, an easy way to think about it is type 1 diabetes is you don't have enough insulin. 83 00:05:03,429 --> 00:05:05,219 Type 2 diabetes is you have too much. 84 00:05:05,270 --> 00:05:08,809 And now we know why you have too much is because you don't have this, this hormone. 85 00:05:09,119 --> 00:05:11,919 But the, the current understanding, they would say that you're insulin resistant. 86 00:05:11,919 --> 00:05:12,999 So you need more and more insulin. 87 00:05:12,999 --> 00:05:14,999 For some reason, your body needs to produce more insulin. 88 00:05:14,999 --> 00:05:15,989 We see more insulin in the blood. 89 00:05:16,259 --> 00:05:19,169 And, uh, you know, current science doesn't, doesn't understand why. 90 00:05:19,509 --> 00:05:22,159 So type 2 diabetes is a lifestyle disease. 91 00:05:22,555 --> 00:05:27,395 It's thought to have, uh, genetic or, uh, epigenetic, uh, causes. 92 00:05:27,725 --> 00:05:31,455 So, um, you know, you might be more prone to developing it. 93 00:05:31,745 --> 00:05:35,655 But what we see currently is that it can't be fully genetic. 94 00:05:35,675 --> 00:05:38,395 It has to be something that has to do with lifestyle. 95 00:05:38,395 --> 00:05:43,134 Because we see diabetes increasing across the world based on... 96 00:05:43,655 --> 00:05:44,505 Economics. 97 00:05:44,695 --> 00:05:54,445 So, as a country becomes more developed, they have enough money to start spending money on sweets and soft drinks, and then you see 10, 20 years later, all of a sudden there's a diabetes epidemic. 98 00:05:54,705 --> 00:06:06,604 And so, genetics don't spread in 10 or 20 years, but the advancement of sugar in the society and having jobs where you're sitting down and having more stress, these come with economic development. 99 00:06:06,935 --> 00:06:11,565 So, there is a genetic component, we're sure, because we can see that there's a higher prevalence in some. 100 00:06:11,875 --> 00:06:18,465 Um, ethnicities than others, but truly it's, it has to do with, uh, what we're eating and the lifestyles we're living. 101 00:06:19,585 --> 00:06:26,205 So, John, you're currently in, been sucked into the whole try to raise money taking over your life thing, have you? 102 00:06:26,465 --> 00:06:27,384 Yes, yes. 103 00:06:27,444 --> 00:06:28,694 How much are you trying to raise? 104 00:06:28,974 --> 00:06:41,375 So, uh, in academia, when you're working in basic research, you're asking for grants from the government or from, uh, you know, different, um, charitable organizations, like the Heart and Stroke Foundation, the Diabetes Foundation. 105 00:06:41,885 --> 00:06:47,245 Those have totaled over, uh, 17 and a half million dollars as the discovery was still in, in university. 106 00:06:47,555 --> 00:06:58,280 As soon as you say, Wow, this, this discovery of these chemicals could be, um, put into a product and then made into a medicine, all of a sudden your funding disappears. 107 00:06:58,319 --> 00:07:02,130 That's not something that, uh, works in the academic circles. 108 00:07:02,370 --> 00:07:15,579 So, uh, for, uh, over ten years, we were working to, um, Move the intellectual property from the university into a, into a private company with a transfer agreement and royalties paid back to the university. 109 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,040 It's often said, I'll just take a, I digress for a second. 110 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,150 Insulin was discovered in Canada as well. 111 00:07:20,150 --> 00:07:29,110 So lightning striking twice in this country, Banting and Best were the scientists that, uh, that discovered insulin 100 years ago, 101 years ago out of the University of Toronto. 112 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,270 And it's been said that if they would have given a 1 percent royalty. 113 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:38,390 Back to the University of Toronto, no Canadian would have paid for post secondary education. 114 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:43,210 There would have been billions of dollars that would have flowed into the academic structure in Canada. 115 00:07:43,490 --> 00:07:49,460 So, we have a 2 percent royalty back to the university, so hopefully we'll fix that for the next generation. 116 00:07:49,470 --> 00:07:51,090 Fix your children's education. 117 00:07:51,935 --> 00:07:53,125 Yes, yes, that grandchildren maybe. 118 00:07:53,125 --> 00:07:53,955 Yes, exactly. 119 00:07:54,315 --> 00:08:00,565 So, it took about 10 years of hurry up and wait of many meetings of trying to transfer, uh, that, that intellectual property. 120 00:08:00,804 --> 00:08:01,134 Dr. 121 00:08:01,134 --> 00:08:07,924 Lott started a separate private laboratory, which then continued to produce, uh, more intellectual property, more patents were produced outside. 122 00:08:08,214 --> 00:08:10,935 And so now the company owns all of that intellectual property. 123 00:08:11,585 --> 00:08:21,645 And then we have to start fundraising with people that, uh, want to partake in the risks and the possible rewards of bringing these four different, um, products to market. 124 00:08:22,034 --> 00:08:24,255 And so that starts with friends and family. 125 00:08:24,654 --> 00:08:27,144 And, uh, the company is, is a family company. 126 00:08:27,395 --> 00:08:28,075 Uh, Dr. 127 00:08:28,075 --> 00:08:28,395 Lot. 128 00:08:28,540 --> 00:08:31,370 The chief scientific officer is my father in law. 129 00:08:31,510 --> 00:08:31,960 Ah, okay. 130 00:08:32,950 --> 00:08:36,469 The CEO of the company is my brother in law, his son. 131 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:50,799 I'm married to a family company, and that's part of why I think this worked, because you have to have ten years of focusing and working on it, but maybe it's only one meeting or, you know, talking to a lawyer. 132 00:08:51,185 --> 00:08:58,265 Or an IP consultant and then waiting a week or a month for something to happen, uh, until, until it can turn into a business. 133 00:08:58,265 --> 00:09:05,754 So I've been watching this company progress for over 17 years and I've been in the company for, uh, seven or eight years, uh, myself. 134 00:09:05,944 --> 00:09:13,035 Once it got to the point where all the intellectual property is together and they need a business plan and they need to start bringing on investors, that's when I was pulled into the company. 135 00:09:13,215 --> 00:09:18,285 So to answer your question that you asked maybe 20 minutes ago, it feels like, uh, we've raised 20 million. 136 00:09:19,195 --> 00:09:22,565 Privately and there's 17 and a half million dollars that was public. 137 00:09:22,815 --> 00:09:32,310 We think about 17 million dollars of infrastructure was also Given by the university your grants and university can't cover Any of the facilities and they can't cover any of the labor. 138 00:09:32,319 --> 00:09:32,630 Right. 139 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:33,359 You need grad students for that. 140 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:33,699 Yeah. 141 00:09:33,939 --> 00:09:39,770 So, so maybe, you know, 60 million dollars of work has been done, 20 million dollars, uh, has been raised. 142 00:09:39,969 --> 00:09:45,430 And we still have probably another 100 million dollars to go to get all four of these products out, uh, to the finish line. 143 00:09:45,459 --> 00:09:46,889 I mean, it's amazing actually. 144 00:09:46,900 --> 00:09:47,869 It really makes you think. 145 00:09:47,910 --> 00:09:50,299 Cause everybody always says, Oh my god, you know. 146 00:09:50,870 --> 00:09:58,500 Pharmaceuticals cost so much, and, you know, and people say it's because of the amount of time and effort it takes to create them. 147 00:09:58,730 --> 00:10:05,110 And you don't really think about it, but when you describe, sort of, Almost 20 years of work to get to this point. 148 00:10:05,430 --> 00:10:10,260 It suddenly makes it completely apparent why you have to raise so much money to do it. 149 00:10:10,370 --> 00:10:11,050 Absolutely. 150 00:10:11,069 --> 00:10:16,790 You know, and why you then have to charge for the product in order to, to make that money back. 151 00:10:16,899 --> 00:10:20,210 Especially if you start looking at the success rates. 152 00:10:20,250 --> 00:10:24,540 And, you know, maybe 1 out of 10 of these products will get all the way to the finish line. 153 00:10:24,870 --> 00:10:26,430 And there's a whole bunch of reasons for failure. 154 00:10:26,430 --> 00:10:27,230 It's not just a... 155 00:10:27,585 --> 00:10:31,915 Oh, it didn't work, or it was found to be harmful, um, although those, those do happen. 156 00:10:32,185 --> 00:10:36,324 It's often that, oh, it's going to be more expensive than, uh, than something that's currently on the market. 157 00:10:36,605 --> 00:10:40,985 And an insurance company won't pay for something that's twice as expensive, but maybe 10 percent better. 158 00:10:41,174 --> 00:10:41,374 Yeah. 159 00:10:41,374 --> 00:10:45,225 So there's a lot of checks along the way that you have to make sure that this has commercial viability, that you're going to be 160 00:10:45,225 --> 00:10:50,545 able to produce it, that the raw materials are going to be available, and, uh, that people are going to be willing to, to take it. 161 00:10:50,565 --> 00:10:53,805 Like, if it's something that you have to inject into your eyeball, no one wants to do that. 162 00:10:54,164 --> 00:10:54,474 Right. 163 00:10:54,474 --> 00:10:56,795 And so there's a whole bunch of reasons why these things fail. 164 00:10:57,374 --> 00:11:00,814 And how many years into the FDA approval process are you at the moment? 165 00:11:00,914 --> 00:11:03,114 We're probably about, uh, five or six years into it. 166 00:11:03,114 --> 00:11:03,374 Okay. 167 00:11:03,374 --> 00:11:06,104 And we've got five or six years to go, depending on which product. 168 00:11:06,244 --> 00:11:09,994 Some of the products are, are gonna be, uh, ready, like, uh, the, the diagnostic test. 169 00:11:10,354 --> 00:11:14,035 We'll be, uh, already within 18 months in Canada. 170 00:11:14,285 --> 00:11:16,295 And then you have to repeat one trial. 171 00:11:16,295 --> 00:11:17,384 You don't have to do all three trials. 172 00:11:17,384 --> 00:11:19,285 You have to repeat one trial in each country. 173 00:11:19,405 --> 00:11:25,324 So we've harmonized all of our clinical trials, uh, between, uh, Europe, Australia, Japan. 174 00:11:25,755 --> 00:11:28,105 Uh, China and Canada, the U. 175 00:11:28,105 --> 00:11:28,425 S. 176 00:11:28,435 --> 00:11:32,475 So we just have a higher standard than all of those countries combined. 177 00:11:32,785 --> 00:11:36,895 And then the rule is you have to test it once in our country to make sure that it works. 178 00:11:36,905 --> 00:11:39,395 And you can understand why there's ethnic differences. 179 00:11:39,395 --> 00:11:40,714 There's size differences. 180 00:11:41,145 --> 00:11:42,525 You know, those those types of things. 181 00:11:42,605 --> 00:11:53,985 So, um, the first product will be on market in 18 months and then a year after that in the States and then a year after that kind of worldwide and again is the faster We can raise 182 00:11:53,985 --> 00:12:03,345 money the more you can do these clinical trials Simultaneously we have to do one at a time Because we're not able to raise, you know, a couple hundred million dollars all at once. 183 00:12:03,574 --> 00:12:03,855 Wow. 184 00:12:04,245 --> 00:12:07,675 And it really is a life's work, I suppose, particularly for your father in law. 185 00:12:07,785 --> 00:12:08,225 Yeah. 186 00:12:08,324 --> 00:12:20,615 I mean, it's two generations of our family have, you know, put all of our wealth, all of our capital, we've all mortgaged our houses at different points in the process, you know, where you're between fundraising. 187 00:12:20,615 --> 00:12:20,895 Yeah. 188 00:12:21,170 --> 00:12:22,949 Uh, and you know, we're, we're all in. 189 00:12:22,959 --> 00:12:24,129 That's, that's for sure. 190 00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:29,339 And, uh, for the scientific team, it's really interesting to look at the, the scientific team. 191 00:12:29,339 --> 00:12:32,699 You've, you know, the average age there is, you know, in the 60s. 192 00:12:32,729 --> 00:12:35,800 You know, we've got a, some new fresh blood there. 193 00:12:36,070 --> 00:12:40,585 But, um, There's no way to really manage a team that are all past retirement age. 194 00:12:40,615 --> 00:12:43,645 They're here for reasons that aren't financial. 195 00:12:43,814 --> 00:12:45,564 They're not about their career. 196 00:12:46,045 --> 00:12:48,545 They're here to bring this all the way to people. 197 00:12:48,595 --> 00:12:53,985 You know, it's one thing to work on something in a petri dish or, you know, with rats. 198 00:12:54,155 --> 00:12:58,435 It's something else to get it all the way through the FDA and get it out into the community. 199 00:12:59,025 --> 00:13:05,665 I mean, I don't need to, uh, remind everyone how terrible the disease is, but, you know, half a billion people are diagnosed. 200 00:13:05,694 --> 00:13:07,785 There's probably another billion that are undiagnosed. 201 00:13:08,084 --> 00:13:09,104 Every 4. 202 00:13:09,105 --> 00:13:11,435 2 seconds, someone dies of diabetes somewhere in the world. 203 00:13:11,785 --> 00:13:14,844 20 amputations a day happen in Canada based off diabetes. 204 00:13:14,884 --> 00:13:15,604 200... 205 00:13:15,820 --> 00:13:16,310 In the U. 206 00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:16,460 S. 207 00:13:16,460 --> 00:13:19,840 alone, so it's the number one cause of blindness. 208 00:13:19,850 --> 00:13:22,820 It leads to all these other diseases like coronary heart disease. 209 00:13:22,910 --> 00:13:25,100 We know that there's a link with cancer. 210 00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:31,020 It's really one of the more expensive diseases that we, that our healthcare system has to handle. 211 00:13:31,230 --> 00:13:38,490 You know, if you project the cost, the rising cost of diabetes, it's going to eclipse the GDP of our countries by the end of the century. 212 00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:39,820 So there's something that has to happen. 213 00:13:39,820 --> 00:13:41,010 There's something that has to change. 214 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:46,569 And, um, sometimes it feels like we're all alone out here working to do this and to bring it to market. 215 00:13:47,229 --> 00:13:50,079 And now, a quick word from our sponsor. 216 00:13:50,910 --> 00:13:53,949 Business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Uri Clark. 217 00:13:54,060 --> 00:13:57,670 Straight talking financial and legal advice since 1935. 218 00:13:58,119 --> 00:14:00,189 You can find us at Uriclark. 219 00:14:00,239 --> 00:14:06,410 com Is there something that you think is bullshit in your industry? 220 00:14:06,420 --> 00:14:07,270 And if so, what is it? 221 00:14:07,570 --> 00:14:17,090 Two things, we talked about venture capitalists, you know, the idea that these guys are, you know, they have some type of, uh, crystal ball they can see into the future and they know exactly where to bet. 222 00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:21,710 And, uh, and the idea of venture, even the word venture kind of means to lead on an adventure. 223 00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:24,569 And the funny thing about venture capitalists is every time... 224 00:14:25,050 --> 00:14:27,720 We approach them, they ask, Who's leading this round? 225 00:14:27,740 --> 00:14:29,459 Like, who else is in this round? 226 00:14:29,459 --> 00:14:31,050 I'm like, well, aren't you the leader? 227 00:14:31,449 --> 00:14:33,130 They never want to be the ones. 228 00:14:33,189 --> 00:14:35,049 Yeah, are you the leader or are you the follower? 229 00:14:35,050 --> 00:14:36,449 That's what you call them, follow capitalists. 230 00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:42,539 But, um, the other thing that is bullshit is the perception of pharma companies. 231 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:51,180 Now, I don't want to upset the four or five pharma companies that we're talking to and in constant dialogue with in order for them to help us do distribution. 232 00:14:51,590 --> 00:15:00,510 But in the last 20 years, there's been a financialization of the, of the pharma companies, meaning that, you know, their, their stock is traded, traded on Wall Street, just like everyone else's. 233 00:15:00,739 --> 00:15:07,750 And, uh, the financial analysts say, hey, you know what you could do in order to increase your profitability is to stop doing breaking research. 234 00:15:07,979 --> 00:15:11,639 So pharma companies aren't out there doing this groundbreaking research. 235 00:15:11,699 --> 00:15:13,559 Because it costs too much, presumably. 236 00:15:13,749 --> 00:15:14,549 It costs too much. 237 00:15:14,559 --> 00:15:17,939 It costs too much because 90 percent of those things don't, don't go forward. 238 00:15:17,949 --> 00:15:20,609 And then the ones that do go forward, you know, one out of three. 239 00:15:21,010 --> 00:15:28,530 Might not make it all the way through the FDA trial, so maybe it's like one out of a thousand of these crazy experiments that your funding will actually turn into something. 240 00:15:28,769 --> 00:15:35,390 And so what they've done now is they've given all those facilities over the last 20 years, they've given all the facilities to the universities. 241 00:15:35,780 --> 00:15:38,009 They provide grants to the universities. 242 00:15:38,249 --> 00:15:43,019 Um, they have innovation parks, accelerator programs, those types of things. 243 00:15:43,129 --> 00:15:50,120 But basically they've just stepped back from that entire basic science portion of the pipeline and just outsourced it. 244 00:15:50,410 --> 00:15:52,840 To the startup community, and they just wait. 245 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,960 So it's kind of innovation through acquisition. 246 00:15:55,050 --> 00:15:57,320 They just wait for a company like, like Symar to pop up. 247 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,020 And go, Oh, they've got something interesting. 248 00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:02,520 Wait, we'll watch them for 10 years and see if they're trending in the right direction. 249 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,200 And then we'll purchase them. 250 00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:07,440 Is that Symar's long term goal you've just given away there? 251 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:08,260 Right. 252 00:16:08,260 --> 00:16:11,159 So, I mean, uh, you know, uh, we're a small family company. 253 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:12,030 We know how to do science. 254 00:16:12,030 --> 00:16:14,910 We know how to, we've learned how to take things through the regulatory path. 255 00:16:15,149 --> 00:16:15,740 We don't. 256 00:16:15,885 --> 00:16:22,844 fool ourselves into thinking that we're a global pharma company with the ability to manufacture in all these regions and to do distribution. 257 00:16:23,064 --> 00:16:26,545 And so if you want manufacturing and distribution, that's still the pharma companies. 258 00:16:26,545 --> 00:16:31,805 Those guys are great at pumping out pills and convincing the doctors to prescribe them. 259 00:16:32,025 --> 00:16:33,374 You know, that's a distribution network. 260 00:16:33,564 --> 00:16:40,935 The bullshit part of it is that they're not the scientists that are sitting there with the test tubes and discovering, Eureka! 261 00:16:40,935 --> 00:16:48,145 I've discovered something new and And the fact that they say that we have to spend all this money to do that research is also bullshit, because they don't do that. 262 00:16:48,385 --> 00:16:52,765 And plus, all their adverts are men in white coats with goggles on. 263 00:16:52,765 --> 00:16:53,275 Exactly. 264 00:16:53,275 --> 00:16:54,704 Looking in test tubes, right? 265 00:16:54,805 --> 00:16:55,525 You know what it should be? 266 00:16:55,525 --> 00:16:58,464 It should be men in pinstripe suits because it's all the lawyers. 267 00:16:58,474 --> 00:17:01,155 It's just lawyers, you know, making contracts. 268 00:17:01,344 --> 00:17:02,074 Seems fine to me. 269 00:17:02,905 --> 00:17:07,615 Yeah, yeah, and a machine, a machine that's just punching out the pills at a billion pills an hour, right? 270 00:17:07,825 --> 00:17:15,050 Uh, the other interesting part about pharma is like, When a company makes an announcement that they have now acquired, you know, 271 00:17:15,269 --> 00:17:22,889 a new company that has a breakthrough drug, their stock price goes up by tenfold the amount they're actually acquiring it for. 272 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:34,814 So in a certain way, you know, their budget to buy a company like us is based off of our hard work and them just being able to market that they've bought this company and they're gonna be able to make But Jillian's off of it. 273 00:17:34,965 --> 00:17:36,354 The example I use is Joe Rogan. 274 00:17:36,354 --> 00:17:37,884 So Joe Rogan is a podcaster. 275 00:17:38,284 --> 00:17:41,774 And he got a hundred million dollars from Spotify to come over. 276 00:17:41,774 --> 00:17:43,054 And everyone was like, this is ridiculous. 277 00:17:43,054 --> 00:17:44,774 You're paying a podcaster a hundred million dollars. 278 00:17:44,944 --> 00:17:52,414 But the day that Spotify announced that they got Joe Rogan, is actually Joe Rogan tweeted, Hey, Spotify just, just had an exclusive offer. 279 00:17:52,584 --> 00:17:54,764 Spotify went up by 1. 280 00:17:54,765 --> 00:17:55,604 7 billion dollars. 281 00:17:55,884 --> 00:17:58,705 So they gave 1 17th of that to Joe Rogan, right? 282 00:17:59,145 --> 00:18:00,534 So where did that money come from? 283 00:18:00,534 --> 00:18:01,704 The money came from. 284 00:18:02,450 --> 00:18:09,405 You know joe rogan plus spotify, you know, so it's it's a it's kind of a a backwards way That it actually works. 285 00:18:09,415 --> 00:18:15,605 And when most people think that pharma is just in there with a big checkbook and they could write a billion dollar check any day of the week and that's not actually how it's happening. 286 00:18:15,835 --> 00:18:18,204 What do you think should be done about it, if anything? 287 00:18:18,525 --> 00:18:25,344 Or you think people just need to open their eyes a little bit to, to who is actually making the, creating the inventions? 288 00:18:25,565 --> 00:18:31,925 First thing that needs to change is that we just need to be able to take it out to the public and allow individuals to be able to invest in this. 289 00:18:31,925 --> 00:18:33,575 I think it's, It's bullshit. 290 00:18:33,605 --> 00:18:42,675 We'll follow the rules, but the rules are bullshit around securities that, you know, I can go out and I can go bet a hundred dollars on, at a horse track, right, or bet it all 291 00:18:42,675 --> 00:18:51,014 on black in some casino, but I can't put a hundred dollars into a company that says they're solving a problem because it's, it's too complicated and you can't understand it. 292 00:18:51,204 --> 00:18:52,314 That's absolute bullshit. 293 00:18:52,455 --> 00:18:59,165 The other thing is that, um, our company wants to, um, Pave the path for other companies like ours. 294 00:18:59,175 --> 00:19:04,634 Other scientists like ours to have a funding method where it's just based off of milestones. 295 00:19:04,634 --> 00:19:10,614 You come in and if you achieve a milestone, then you can you can get more money from the fund at a higher valuation. 296 00:19:10,624 --> 00:19:16,985 And if you don't achieve the milestone, if you're if there's a delay, well, then you can just get money at the previous valuation. 297 00:19:17,024 --> 00:19:24,034 But if we were able to know like if 7 million the bank right now and I could spend it tomorrow launching three more clinical trials, but we've got a husband it. 298 00:19:24,514 --> 00:19:27,965 You know, and be very careful because I don't know when the next 10 million is coming in. 299 00:19:28,104 --> 00:19:33,875 But if we knew that there was 10 million, no matter what, then these 10 year projects would turn into 5 year projects. 300 00:19:34,034 --> 00:19:40,004 The other problem is the regulators, their biggest way of filtering to see if you're serious is by not opening your file for one year. 301 00:19:40,014 --> 00:19:43,764 So you put the application in and they're like, we will not open that application for one year. 302 00:19:43,875 --> 00:19:46,304 If you're still around here in a year, well, then we'll look at it. 303 00:19:46,465 --> 00:19:47,455 And then we'll give you an answer. 304 00:19:47,465 --> 00:19:50,205 And then you might have to wait three or four months for them to take the next step. 305 00:19:50,534 --> 00:19:53,264 So whether you like what happened with COVID. 306 00:19:53,430 --> 00:20:01,840 Or not the reason why they're able to move through those through those regulatory hurdles so quickly is they just took the waiting time out between each one of the review steps. 307 00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:09,420 And so if they were to take the waiting time out of the refuse steps for us, we would be on market in two or three years, but it's eight years of waiting. 308 00:20:09,685 --> 00:20:14,275 And six or eight months of actually doing something, you know that needs to be fixed. 309 00:20:15,645 --> 00:20:27,185 John We're gonna move on to the next bit of the show, which is the five second rule Okay, uh, which is where we're gonna ask you a list of questions to get to know you a little better Great, and you have about five seconds. 310 00:20:27,185 --> 00:20:31,950 It's not It's not set in stone, but you have about five seconds to answer each question. 311 00:20:32,010 --> 00:20:33,060 Okay, I'll try my best. 312 00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:36,010 So what was your first job? 313 00:20:37,650 --> 00:20:40,220 Uh, when I was, uh, 12, I was a paper boy. 314 00:20:41,230 --> 00:20:43,749 What, throwing, throwing the papers onto people's lawns? 315 00:20:44,419 --> 00:20:45,400 Yeah, so we weren't allowed to throw them. 316 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,730 We had to actually walk them up and put them into the little mailbox or into the, into the screen door. 317 00:20:49,875 --> 00:20:52,285 But yeah, bicycle, the whole thing, getting down at 4am. 318 00:20:52,315 --> 00:20:52,645 Okay. 319 00:20:52,745 --> 00:20:54,645 And, uh, riding around town before school. 320 00:20:54,675 --> 00:20:55,885 What was your worst job? 321 00:20:56,365 --> 00:20:59,885 In, uh, in university, I worked at a call centre, an outbound call centre. 322 00:20:59,885 --> 00:21:01,955 We were trying to sell credit cards to people who didn't want them. 323 00:21:01,974 --> 00:21:03,135 It was horrible. 324 00:21:03,525 --> 00:21:04,305 It was terrible. 325 00:21:04,795 --> 00:21:06,694 What was your favourite subject at school? 326 00:21:07,684 --> 00:21:11,385 I really liked history, and I know I'm, I'm, I'm in the minority there. 327 00:21:11,655 --> 00:21:12,655 Oh, same here. 328 00:21:12,795 --> 00:21:14,014 Lawyers love history. 329 00:21:14,585 --> 00:21:19,314 Yeah, no one likes it, but I thought it was great because it was like, uh, it was, it was like, uh, story time. 330 00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:21,650 And you would learn about all these things and be like, Oh, wow! 331 00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:25,500 And then it would come, you know, Eventually you'd catch up to current state and be like, Oh, darn, I can't kind of... 332 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:32,620 Yeah, I guess it's like binge watching a show on Netflix Where you can just watch one after another and another And then you get up to the kind of current season. 333 00:21:33,129 --> 00:21:35,939 But, yeah, I really like, I just like the stories and how things turned out. 334 00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:37,270 So I always, I always liked it. 335 00:21:37,710 --> 00:21:38,140 Me too. 336 00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:39,589 Uh, what's your special skill? 337 00:21:40,065 --> 00:21:47,195 Well, I'm told that it's, it's the way that I can connect the dots between different subject areas. 338 00:21:47,225 --> 00:21:56,305 And so it really helps to have an analogy to explain a business rule to the scientists, or to explain some scientific thing over to the business folks. 339 00:21:56,335 --> 00:22:02,905 And so just seeing patterns in stories that people wouldn't normally, normally connect. 340 00:22:03,225 --> 00:22:05,005 What did you want to be when you grew up? 341 00:22:05,145 --> 00:22:08,945 Well, I kind of wanted to be an astronaut, but I think more specifically, like, I wanted to be like... 342 00:22:09,250 --> 00:22:11,670 Scotty on the, uh, Starship Enterprise. 343 00:22:11,670 --> 00:22:13,470 Don't you need a Scottish accent for that? 344 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,210 No, I do, I do. 345 00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:17,690 I'm giving it all I can, Captain. 346 00:22:18,090 --> 00:22:28,559 I really liked how, uh, there was a creativity plus a certain amount of engineering, and whenever Scotty got involved, you knew there was like only 10 more minutes left in the episode because he was going to pull it together. 347 00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:30,460 What did your parents want you to be? 348 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:35,040 They wanted me to be whatever I wanted to be when I grew up, and as long as I was happy, they would be happy. 349 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:41,540 And so, I always loved computers, and so I started my, my first career was in, um, software consulting. 350 00:22:41,829 --> 00:22:44,470 It's a little bit like Scotty, but very different than my parents. 351 00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:47,069 My parents, uh, are not technical at all. 352 00:22:47,199 --> 00:22:51,760 I know that in different, you know, different cultures, you know, they want you to be a doctor or a lawyer. 353 00:22:52,090 --> 00:23:01,319 And, um, you know, there's a lot of stories about people becoming the leader of Facebook, the leader of Google, and their mom is still, you know, upset that they're not a medical doctor or whatever. 354 00:23:01,740 --> 00:23:03,920 So I think it's something, as a parent, I can understand. 355 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:09,889 I just want, I'd like my daughter to be happy and to be engaged, as long as she's engaged in her work, not engaged in marriage. 356 00:23:10,685 --> 00:23:14,625 As long as she's setting goals and achieving them, I think that's the real answer. 357 00:23:14,645 --> 00:23:20,595 And who knows what the future's going to be like with artificial intelligence and, you know, we might all be working for our AI overlords. 358 00:23:20,815 --> 00:23:21,845 So who knows what it's going to be. 359 00:23:21,845 --> 00:23:27,194 So as long as you're setting goals for yourself and achieving them, I think that's really where there's a, there's a fulfillment. 360 00:23:27,395 --> 00:23:31,715 Yeah, I think a lot of kids, to be fair, put a lot more pressure on themselves than their parents do. 361 00:23:31,895 --> 00:23:35,705 I don't know who told it to me, but someone mentioned, uh, when I was young, maybe... 362 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:36,790 15 or 16. 363 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:39,540 The perspective that you would have on your deathbed. 364 00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:41,100 What is your deathbed perspective? 365 00:23:41,310 --> 00:23:46,910 And that no one has ever said, I wish I worked harder or skipped more weekends or spent more time in the office. 366 00:23:47,220 --> 00:23:55,869 And so I think, you know, uh, you know, a weekly or daily check in with the, with the deathbed perspective of saying, you know, is this how I was, I'm going to be proud of spending my life. 367 00:23:55,870 --> 00:23:59,310 And so you do need to work at some point cause you want to be proud of, of accomplishments, but. 368 00:23:59,695 --> 00:24:01,975 Holy cow, you also have to enjoy the fruits of your labor. 369 00:24:01,975 --> 00:24:04,455 I mean, you know, you only have one go around. 370 00:24:05,235 --> 00:24:07,045 What is your go to karaoke song? 371 00:24:08,355 --> 00:24:09,795 I'm a terrible singer. 372 00:24:10,075 --> 00:24:15,305 So, uh, if I'm forced to go onto karaoke, I choose the song tequila. 373 00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:18,840 I'm not sure if you're familiar with that one, but it has one word, so it's Tequila! 374 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:19,770 Oh yeah, okay. 375 00:24:20,780 --> 00:24:20,970 Uh, 376 00:24:24,420 --> 00:24:26,939 this is one for my other co host who's not here. 377 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,970 Office dogs, business or bullshit? 378 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:39,400 I think it's business, but I live on the west coast, and as long as the dog is small and quiet, then I've, we've had a few office dogs that were just wonderful to have there in the office. 379 00:24:39,690 --> 00:24:40,380 It's different if it's... 380 00:24:40,885 --> 00:24:43,715 You know, our offices, you know, we were software development company, right? 381 00:24:43,715 --> 00:24:45,455 So we're all working on computers. 382 00:24:45,455 --> 00:24:53,145 And it was just nice to be able to, you know, have a little, a furry friend in there, as long as the, there weren't too many clients around, have you ever been fired? 383 00:24:53,985 --> 00:24:57,975 I haven't been fired, but I definitely gotten to the point where I was. 384 00:24:58,114 --> 00:25:12,824 Highly fireable, you know, I lose lose interest after a few years and in some of these projects and I just managed to kind of a sneak out Comes down so yeah, what's your voice? 385 00:25:12,895 --> 00:25:23,510 I I have a I have a group of Friends that I've known forever and they have like a weekly poker night, which is just like a fantastic Social I love the idea of that. 386 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:31,379 It's very sort of american Not that you yeah, yeah It is it is I'm a terrible liar. 387 00:25:31,380 --> 00:25:38,905 I'm a terrible bluffer and so I wish I wish I could say it's poker but Yeah, you know, I need to be a better liar. 388 00:25:38,905 --> 00:25:41,515 Maybe this is a bluff for your poker buddies. 389 00:25:41,525 --> 00:25:43,675 Like you're telling them you're a terrible poker player. 390 00:25:43,845 --> 00:25:44,735 I'm terrible. 391 00:25:46,535 --> 00:25:47,515 Why don't we bet hundreds? 392 00:25:54,315 --> 00:25:57,854 So this is where we give you 30 seconds to pitch whatever you like. 393 00:25:57,914 --> 00:26:01,085 It sounds to me like I know what you're going to pitch, but away you go. 394 00:26:01,435 --> 00:26:04,545 Well, I'd like to pitch that, uh, you listen to our podcast inside the breakthrough. 395 00:26:04,545 --> 00:26:05,885 I think that's a, that'll be fun. 396 00:26:05,915 --> 00:26:11,535 Uh, when we are actually, uh, raising money and going live with our regulation, a offering, you'll hear advertisements there. 397 00:26:11,565 --> 00:26:13,955 If you want to come to our website, it's Symar. 398 00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:22,909 S C I M A R dot C A, and, uh, when we're allowed to sell shares, it'll be written all over the website that you can click here, uh, in order to buy shares. 399 00:26:22,940 --> 00:26:32,270 We also have a YouTube channel that's called the Manitoba Moonshot, and that's a documentary series that follows our company and our scientists and our clinicians 400 00:26:32,270 --> 00:26:41,100 out in the field, uh, making this change to, uh, lifestyle interventions, working with communities to understand if they get a, uh, Bad score using our NUPA test. 401 00:26:41,210 --> 00:26:42,520 What you can do now. 402 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,379 And, uh, and just kind of follows the intentions of the company. 403 00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:49,680 Manitoba has the highest prevalence of diabetes in Canada. 404 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,580 And it's the second or third highest in the world. 405 00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:52,950 After Papua New Guinea. 406 00:26:53,300 --> 00:27:00,379 And, and, uh, if we can solve diabetes in our province, then we believe the entire world will come running saying, What can we do? 407 00:27:00,635 --> 00:27:04,435 To export, uh, you know, what you did here in Manitoba to other places. 408 00:27:04,445 --> 00:27:09,795 So the Manitoba Moonshot is a place for us to be able to have an impact that you can see from space. 409 00:27:09,955 --> 00:27:10,355 Fantastic. 410 00:27:10,355 --> 00:27:13,675 I'm not going to say that was more than 30 seconds, but it might have been. 411 00:27:13,704 --> 00:27:14,234 Sorry. 412 00:27:14,555 --> 00:27:16,295 Um, so there you have it. 413 00:27:16,554 --> 00:27:18,914 That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit. 414 00:27:19,690 --> 00:27:27,670 Thank you to Gemma, my co host, thank you to John, you were fantastic, and to Dee, and we'll be back with BWB Extra on Thursday. 415 00:27:27,670 --> 00:27:30,069 Until then, it's ciao.