This is Free Range, a co publication, a co production of KYRS and Range Media. We're flying without Luke again today, as he is in the throes of some business strategizing, so today it's just me, Aaron Hedge, and other Aaron Aaron Sellers. Sup. How you doing today, Sellers? As I have said I think 30 times today, I am so tired. I want to crawl in bed for a nap and never get out, I wish I lived the life of a small cat. I've heard you say it a couple of times, sitting across the table, hacking out stories. Yeah. I've been doing my least favorite thing today, which is logistical stuff, where I've just been going into stories and checking to make sure that, like, the links go to the right place and it's formatted the correct way. None of the fun parts of journalism. There's lots of little ticky tacky work that we have to do to get the stories ready to go up on the web, so. Yeah. You're a hero for doing that work though. I don't like it either. Um, well today, uh, we're gonna talk about some kind of a theme that we've been working on this week. Um, and that's some bills that are currently making their way through the state legislature. They're currently in session over there, and now is kind of a crucial time for those bills, or for a lot of these bills. They're in committees where if they're not scheduled for, um, hearings, they might die, or they're passing through, and they're, um, they're making progress, but a lot of, a lot of movement there. Yeah, Friday is The first deadline for leg sesh, so, uh, bills get introduced into a committee of origin is what it's called, and in order to move out of that committee of origin, they have to be scheduled for a hearing where they are read and discussed, they have to be debated, and then they have to be scheduled for a vote to move out of that committee. And so, if those kinds of things aren't getting scheduled, it might be an indicator that like your favorite bill is going to die. And there's a lot of really, really crucial stuff for, for, especially for segments of the population who don't get a lot of attention in legislation all the time. And I think we're going to talk about two groups of people today that, um, that are parts of those groups. So, uh, yeah, so, um, I think, I think first the way we have, uh, like, like eventually you're going to, you're going to interview me about a story that I'm working on, um, about a house. Uh, specific slated bills is kind of being gummed up in the legislature and, uh, but first I'm going to interview you about a story that you wrote, published yesterday, right? Uh, published the 18th, so. A couple days ago. Yeah, time has both been going so fast and so slow at the same time. This is a, this is a women's health care bill that's, it's one of those bills that, uh, You know, it's in danger of, of tanking tomorrow. Um, if, if something doesn't happen, if, if there's not a hearing scheduled for this bill, it will, um, it will no longer be part of the legislative agenda in, in Olympia. Um, so yeah, uh, let's, let's talk about, let's dive into that bill. It's a, it's a, um, it's a bill that addresses a women's healthcare issue that I, as a cis dude, am very privileged to have been able to ignore my whole life, um, and so I'm really glad I, I got to see the story before it went out and I, I learned a ton from it, just about Uh, what women go through with, uh, this particular medical device that couples use primarily for contraception. Um, Yeah, not to be, like, too woke on Maine, but, um, this is, yeah, something that anybody with a uterus might end up needing. And also, not just couples. You can use it if you are Um, and also there's like some non reproduction related uses for it because an IUD, um, which is a intrauterine Uh, device, um, can also help with bad periods. So I didn't really get into this in my story because I had, like, kind of a strict word cap. I was trying to keep this one short. But for a lot of people, um, if they have heavy monthly periods, an IUD can sort of stop your body from shedding its uterine lining every month. So it can, you know, help you not have so heavy of periods or help with those period cramps. What can you talk about, uh, yeah, like, like, I Obviously, you, you did your research, um, and you have a uterus, and you, um, you, uh, know a lot more about this than I do. Can you describe how an intrauterine device, or IUD, is different from other kinds of contraception, uh, and what's good about them, what, what, what makes them attractive for, for people to want to use? Yeah. So, um. Um. I mean, first of all, it has a couple, there are two different kinds of IUDs. There's a hormonal and a non hormonal IUD. Um, and an IUD, they're like little, small, flexible. They're kind of like, I want to say like an inch or two long. Um, and they have little wings that give it that T shape. Uh, and, um, they just go right in through the vagina and up the uterus and sort of implant, um, implant up there, um, through the vagina and the cervical opening, and then just sort of sit in your cervix. Um, they, there's a lot of reasons somebody might choose an IUD. So, first of all, they can last for between 3 and 10 years. So it's kind of a more, like, semi permanent option, as opposed to options like the pill, or the patch, which is like a patch that you stick on your arm, or, um, there's something called a ring, um, that also is implanted, but you implant it yourself, and you switch it out every week, and it's sort of like a small, flexible ring, but all of those require you to kind of Remember to do things like switch out your contraceptive device, or take a pill every day at the same time every day. Um, and if you don't remember to do that, it reduces the efficacy of that contraception method. Um, those varying levels of hormones, sorry, I can sense that you have a follow up question. I, I was just thinking, and this just popped into my head, I can imagine, I can imagine that there's something like of a class dimension to this because if you're like a working, um, person and you like, you, you want to use contraception, it's probably very difficult if you're, if you're very busy and you have a lot to do, maybe taking care of kids or like, you know, running between, um, Like, if you work multiple jobs, to be able to, like, meet those, like, strict schedules of those other devices, so it's probably a really attractive Yeah, and even, like, stuff, like, you have to, you know, get refills at the pharmacy every so often, so things like making time in your day to go to the pharmacy and get your refill, you have to fill it more often, you might have, you know, depending on your insurance situation, you might have a co pay that you have to make every month, um And there's also, I think, an interesting disability component to this as well. Um, one of the sources I interviewed talked about, like, ADHD and, like, being really, really bad at remembering to take a pill the same time every day. Um, like, it, it just wasn't something that her brain was good at doing. Um, and so, for an IUD, it's like, you go to one doctor's appointment, It gets implanted and you do not have to think about contraception again for three to ten years in the best case scenario. Like of course, you know, for some people it is not the best option. There are some people who reject it, um, so they might have to go back and have a follow up appointment to get it taken out. Um, but in general, it is one of those things where you can sort of stick it in, leave it alone, and not have to worry about your, um, whether or not you're going to get pregnant. Okay, so I interrupted you. What were you, what were you, what were you gonna say? I don't remember because I too am kind of a bouncer. Oh, a few reasons why this might, a few reasons besides that why this might be the best contraceptive method for people is that like for the patch and emergency contraception, so think like Plan B pills, there is Like, they are less effective the higher your BMI is. So, for people who weigh a certain amount, those two birth control methods get less and less effective. Um, also, hormone levels, I know this was, like, not to get too personal on the radio, but I was taking another medication that kind of messed with my hormone levels, and I didn't want a birth control option. that also, um, was horm like, very hormonal. So the pill is like, you take it, and there's sort of hormones running through your whole body from that. It's like tricking your body into thinking that it's pregnant, um, so that you are not I'm trying to think of how to put this in like PG simple radio terms, but basically, the hormones in birth control pills sort of tell your brain, you're already pregnant, don't let any more sperm in. Um, like prepare to have a baby, as opposed to like, prepare to get pregnant. Uh, and so that can kind of make your brain run haywire in a couple ways. And so for people who might want lower hormonal or no hormonal options, the IUD is localized or you can get a copper IUD where it's made out of copper and that has no hormones at all but is still a pretty effective. way to not, um, get pregnant. So I'm really trying so hard. That was really good. So basically, like, rather than altering your entire body chemistry, you can just like localize it to one, like your uterus, your cervix. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so, I mean, it's, it sounds, it sounds like a, like a very good, and it's, it's highly effective too, right? It is. Yeah. It's, and I think a part of that is because there are less things you can do that bring that efficacy rate down, basically like you just, you leave it alone. It eliminates human error. Oh my gosh, that's such a good way to put that. So, now we know what this device is and what's good about it. Um, that doesn't make it perfect. What is, what's the problem with it? And why are, why are people like me and even some women who've had IUDs unaware of these problems? Yeah, so, okay. So, it's an, it's a procedure to get it put in. And, I was looking through medical websites in researching this story and a lot of websites described, uh, the procedure as taking just a few minutes and causing patients, quote, highly variable discomfort. A lot of the language that was used was around discomfort or cramping. It'll feel like a little pinch. Um, and so all of that language that people are aware of is kind of a little bit Minimizing. It's, it's described as You know, as maybe being a little uncomfortable for a couple of minutes. But, I, Which doesn't sound too bad, especially in relation to the benefits. Exactly. And so I think when a lot of patients are weighing that equation in their head, they're thinking like, Okay, five to ten minutes of being like mildly to pretty uncomfortable, I can handle that. It's worth ten years of not having to think about this. But, I, um, Interviewed three people for my story, and then when my story came out, got a massive amount of, like, public comments and feedback from people who described their own IUD insertions or removals as extremely painful. Um, some of the words that were used, the one that stuck with me the most was scissors, scissors. Um, a woman was describing to her friend who was actually a state legislator, legislator, that the feeling of having an IUD inserted felt like there were scissors inside, um, her body. And somebody else said it was 10 out of 10 painful, another woman said it was the highest level of pain she'd ever experienced, and they went into the procedure thinking Like, okay, this is going to take 10 minutes and maybe be mildly uncomfortable. Um, and for one woman, it took 30 minutes, and she was in, like, the highest level of pain she's ever been in for 30 minutes. Um, and so the bill I wrote about was proposed by Representative Amy Wallin, and her friend was the one who described the feeling as scissor scissors. Uh, She said that she was invited as like a trusted confidant to go with this friend, saw how traumatic the procedure was. Kind of as like moral support. Yeah, you can bring somebody with you in the room. I've, for transparency, I've had an IUD insertion. They gave me the option to bring somebody into the room with me. I brought a close friend and roommate who just sort of sat with me and held my hand. And it looked like Representative Wallin was that person for a close family friend. And, um, When she saw how long it took, how painful it was, and the kind of agony that her friend was in, she wrote and proposed a bill that would require It would not require doctors to give you any pain management options, but it would require a kind of informed consent, where if you, as a patient, call up a doctor and ask to schedule your IUD insertion or removal, they would have to tell you if there are pain management options available. Because this doesn't actually have to be this painful. There's sort of a menu. of options that some clinics provide, like nitrous oxide or laughing gas. Um, sometimes they'll do a localized anesthetic in your cervix. Um, there's one gynecologist who even offers patients like Valium. Um, there are. pain management options, but not every clinic or, um, primary care facility has these options available. And sometimes they have the options and they don't tell patients about the options. So you wouldn't know unless you knew to ask. And this bill would require these medical facilities to tell you what options they can offer you so that you have that informed consent of like, okay, do I want this procedure here? Do I want to go somewhere else that maybe has more pain management options? Do I want this procedure at all? Like, what's the calculus here as opposed to the calculus seeming really easy of mild discomfort, 10 minutes, and then you get there and it's 30 minutes of the worst pain you've ever experienced in your life. And they're like, take a Tylenol afterwards. And one of the things that struck me is, um, like, it's not just the 30 minutes for some women. Like the pain can last for, I think I read somewhere like. Days after. Yeah, um, they, they do warn you about like, or, or the sources that I interviewed said that they'd been warned that there might be some cramping afterwards. Um, but because, you know, people with uteruses are usually accustomed to having periods and having regular cramping, and so they were all like, well okay, like I know what that's like, I can handle that for a couple days, it won't be any different than getting my period every month. Um, But for most of them, it was a lot more painful than that for a couple of days after their insertion. Um, one of your sources, and this, I think, I think this illustrates, like, how infuriating this problem is. Um, one of, one of your, one of your sources that you spoke with, uh, her, her mother was, uh, an OBGYN, a gynecologist. And, um, She had told her that she, to expect to be uncomfortable, kind of this, you know, euphemistic language, and, you know, like, maybe she didn't know, but she had this just awful experience, and then, um, when she learned about those options, like, and the example you used. Telling her story was nitrous oxide at Planned Parenthood, you say it left her feeling quote unquote totally furious And I feel like I feel like I would probably feel the same way if I had that experience. Yeah, I mean I remember asking beforehand like is there any I, I asked if there were options available to me, and at the time, I was told no, and a year later And you're, you're extremely proactive at asking questions, and I, I could imagine a lot of women wouldn't, wouldn't want to, like, proactively, like, answer those questions. Yeah, I think I was told to, like, that I could take a couple of ibuprofen beforehand, which I did. I asked, um, this is Washington's, actually I'm not going to say this, never mind. Um But I, I asked those questions about my own health, and I was told what I thought the options were. And then a year later, that same clinic posted that they were now offering nitrous oxide to patients, which they may not have had it at the time. Or they may have, and they just didn't think I'd need it. I don't, I don't know. But, I think this bill would eliminate some of those uncertainties and questions. And for patients who aren't as familiar with the medical system, or who aren't as familiar with the potential options they can ask for. Like, they'd be given a menu right off the bat, and then they can pick from that, or choose not to order off the menu at this time, and go to a different place. Um. I think there's some other, I've been having an argument on the internet with somebody that I think is kind of relevant that I wanted to bring up. Yeah, yeah, talk about this argument. Um, but while a lot of the, the comments around this article have been very, I don't know, like a lot of people expressing that they feel seen in this legislation, that they're so glad that it's being brought forward, and also frustration that, It even has to be legislated that, that they aren't being given these, this menu of options without a law requiring it. Um, but I've been arguing with somebody on the internet who's like, well, if your insertion took longer than 10 minutes, then the doctor didn't do their job correctly. Um, and one of the sources I interviewed said that her insertion took a particularly long time. Because of the shape of her internal anatomy. So, the insertion is kind of like putting the device up a tunnel. Um, again, I'm trying to figure out how to put this in like PG euphemistic radio friendly language, but it's sort of like, like implanting the device. up a tunnel, but her tunnel has a bend in it, and so it just kept hitting the wall in the bend, and because it's a small, flexible device, it was sort of hitting the wall and bouncing off instead of hitting the wall and continuing up the tunnel to where it is supposed to sit and land. And that made the experience incredibly painful for her, and it just took forever. Um. Um. And it wasn't necessarily that her doctors had done anything wrong, it was just that her internal anatomy was harder to navigate. She ended up getting her IUD removed when it expired, and she knew how painful it was, but for her this was still painful. still the best reproductive health care option and so she wanted to get it inserted again. She wanted a new one. Um, this time she went to a different clinic that offered an ultrasound guided insertion. So if you're familiar with an ultrasound, it sort of shows doctors a picture of what you're like a live time. I mean video feed really of what your internal anatomy looks like. It's like you see it on movies all the time with like when they, when they like. Show, like, the baby on the screen when they, like, um, Yeah, it's, like, blue, and there's When an expectant mother does a checkup. But the same, the same procedure exists for lots of different, uh, operations. Yeah, and so, for her, they were able to use that kind of live video feed to get a look at what her internal anatomy looked like, so that they could better insert the device, and she said it was still really painful, but it took five minutes instead of thirty minutes. And she was like, that is definitely worth it to me. And for her, that ultrasound guided process was a pain management option. Um, she didn't tell me specifically what the name of her condition was. Um, or if there was like a label for why her internal anatomy was shaped differently. But I did some research on my own, and it was probably that she has a tilted uterus, which is a condition that 25 percent of people with uteruses have, um, where it's tilted either kind of to the front or to the back. And just that little tilt to it can change the layout inside. Um, again, euphemistic language. So because of, because of certain angles they have to do, they have to like, you know. They have to readjust. It's not a straight shot from point A to point B. Uh, and so all of those things can, it doesn't necessarily mean that your doctor is doing a bad job. It might just mean that your internal anatomy looks differently. Um, and having like an ultrasound guided process as a pain management option can mitigate some of those concerns. I'm sorry if this is like, you know, middle school, um, sex ed, I am so sorry. You live in a society that needs it. Yeah. Okay, um, well I think, you know, we're, we're, like, we're living, um, in a time when women's health is at risk, um, and when society is discouraged from even discussing women's health issues. Yeah. And so I thought it was really important that you, um, You pursued this story, and it's, it's always impressive to me how you, how you find sources, um, and you referred to these women just by their first names to protect their medical privacy in your story, but can you talk to me what, what it was like approaching these women and, and, and just like, Maybe, maybe reveal what you can about, like, how you found them and what the process was like. Yeah, I mean, I got really lucky. I found all of them through a call to sources in our Friday newsletter. I just posted that, um, I was working on a story about a bill in State Ledge and was looking for people who had experienced either a painful IUD insertion Or an IUD insertion with pain management options offered to them. Um, and I got like four or five emails and um, I scheduled, tried to schedule with all of them. It fell through with one or two people. One was my fault. Um, but I was able to set up phone calls with three people. Um, and had also kind of Talked about IUD insertions with a variety of friends and, um, people I feel comfortable with on background, but quoted three people I'd never talked to before. Um, and it is kind of hard to have those conversations. I think it's hard to call somebody on the phone and be like, Tell me about your very private medical history. Tell me about this traumatic experience. But I think by being pretty up front with what I was looking for in my call to sources, everybody who reached out knew roughly what I was going to be asking and was willing to share their stories. And, um, yeah, I think that a couple of them got You know, we're pretty emotional talking about it, like the one you mentioned who had been through two very painful IUD insertions and then like two years after her most recent one learned from TikTok and Instagram that You can ask for nitrous oxide or some patients are given nitrous oxides to make that less painful and She is somebody who ostensibly Should be able to navigate the medical system pretty well with a parent who is an ob gyn So if if she didn't know about that, there are so many other people who don't unfortunately Um, today is Thursday, we're coming to you live, and the bill has been discussed, but it has, in committee, but it has not been scheduled for a vote in its committee of origin yet. So if that doesn't happen by the end of day tomorrow, this bill is going to die. Um, the representative who proposed it, Representative Amy Wallin, told me that, uh, there were a couple a couple factors in why this bill might not be moving forward despite the fact that she said a lot of young women have reached out to her Being like thank you. I had no idea about this Like this is thank you so much for proposing this but the chair of the committee who decides who basically creates the schedule for a committee like decides if a bill is going to get heard or voted on and when um I don't want to make any assumptions about this person, but he is a man, and she talked about how hard it has been to explain to men, male legislators specifically, like why this bill is important, um, why, you know, I think why, like, pain management options should be required. For, or like, listed. Um, she joked about having to explain what dilating the cervix was to legislators. Um, and said that, you know, like, uh, I think her quote, that I didn't end up getting to include in my story, but like, Oh, I'm an old school feminist. I like making men uncomfortable. But, That doesn't necessarily translate to men caring enough to, to advance this bill. And she also said that, um, there had been some lobbying from healthcare lobbyists who didn't want to be told how to do their job. So they were pushing back against this bill because they didn't want to be told that you have to do X, Y, Z when scheduling these appointments. And I wasn't even saying that they have to provide any kind of pain management options, just that they have to. Notify patients which options are available at their clinic. Kind of similar to how a lot of states are telling, making abortion care providers tell women that there are other options. Yeah. But just, that's kind of on the flip side of the coin, so that one seems like it. Is a little bit more attractive to male legislators. I'm making a lot of assumptions there, but. Yeah. Um, so, you know, this bill, is it, is it, is it risk of dying? I don't think we ever actually said the bill number. Um, but if you're interested in learning more, it is House Bill 1077 in the Washington State Legislature. It's proposed by Representative Amy Wallin of District 48. Um. And, yeah, this has kind of been one of the, one of the bills that we've been tracking. I think we're gonna go to a brief break, and when we come back, I'm going to interview Erin Hedge about One of the hottest topics around fiscal notes and why you should care about them. Alright, we are back. This is Free Range. Um, you're listening to Aaron and Aaron Hedge because Luke's not here. So, we just got done talking about one bill moving through the Washington State Senate. state legislature that has to do with reproductive care, and now we're going to start talking about actually a series of bills that are kind of interconnected both by the population that they're intended to serve and the thing that's sort of holding them back maybe for moving quickly through the legislature. Do you think that's all accurate, Hedge? Yeah, that sounds about right, um, and it's, uh, it's These aren't the only bills that are affecting this population. You know, the population we're talking about is incarcerated individuals. Um, A lot of people don't know that, you know, Washington State, uh, spends about, they're spending 3 billion dollars this year. this fiscal cycle on, of our taxpayer money on their incarceration system. I didn't even know that. Can you say that louder for the crowd in the back? Yeah, yeah, about three billion dollars. Um, and, uh, I think, I think often we're, we're unaware that these populations exist because we intentionally, like, part of the nature of, uh, prison is we sequester them away from society. Um, And there's a prison out in Airway Heights that is, that would be affected by, by these bills. Um, but I guess maybe I could give a rundown of what the bills do and then maybe what's, what's going on. Yeah, how many bills are we talking about here? So I looked specifically at four different bills that are currently moving their way through the house. Um, And, there's a lot of, there's a lot of wonkiness involved, but they're all aimed at trying to do a couple of things. Um, make, just like, life more manageable and humane for incarcerated people. And, and make it so that, you know, perhaps they can get out of prison earlier than they currently do. Um, And on, on the flip side of that, uh, reduce the size of this, like, pretty mammoth industry, which eats up a lot of public money that could, you know, instead be diverted to education or health care or things that, you know, we really need that, uh, you know, if we had them, maybe we wouldn't need so much. Would proactively also reduce the amount of money we're spending on incarceration. Um, so that's kind of like the big picture of the bills, uh. So, so one of these bills, uh, HB 1137, this is the one that I was particularly struck by. Okay. Yeah. We'll start with, we'll start with HB 1137. It basically, um. It creates standards for, for putting, uh, incarcerated people in, in, uh, in a thing called, like, most popularly known as solitary confinement, but that's basically like, uh, uh, uh, uh, an incarcerated person is removed from the general prison population at their institution and they're placed, um, in just like, By themselves, for between 20 and 24 hours a day, um, and these, um, these periods of time where they, where they can go into solitary confinement is, uh, between, you know, a day and it, but it can last up to decades, which is extremely So there's no cap on it? No, uh, it's extremely psychologically damaging to be in solitary confinement for even weeks. Um, I spoke with a person who's formerly incarcerated. She's now an activist. Her name is Karen Pesey. She does work for the League of Women Voters advocating for prison reform. And she, uh, she had been, she served two and a half years, um, in a state prison for, um, for theft. And she, uh, she, she was She was sequestered in solitary confinement, she calls it the hole, which I think is a pretty popular term that you'll see in like movies, or that you'll hear in movies, um, about, uh, you know, prisons. And, she said Why was she sequestered? Was this like a non violent offense? So she was being, um, well, and she says, according to her, she says that the prison made a mis that they made a mistake. Um, and They, what they did was, she was, she was being, um, evaluated for a work release, which is where, um, incarcerated people can go out into the community and earn money, um, during their incarceration. Um, and they're, it's, they're heavily monitored, but you, you get to go outside and you get to, you get to perform like, you know. Firefighting is one of those. Like industries that relies on work releases from yeah, exactly. It's a it's a that's a that's a huge industry especially in states like in Western States, California, Washington, um But she was, so part of her evaluation was, uh, uh, urine was, was like a urine analysis. Um, and they, they said that they, she said that they had cups that they had never used before and they didn't know how to read them. And she said that they read it as her being. Um, positive for, for drugs, and so obviously that's, that's a big no no in a prison, and so they put her in solitary confinement for two weeks, and she, this was, um, But whether it was a mistake or not, it was still for a non violent offense. Yep, and And so that's one of the, one of the things that the bill is trying to solve. I'll get to that in a minute. But, um, She said these two weeks were just, this, this was more than a decade ago. It was more than 12 years ago. And she said she still has flashbacks and, like, psychological effects from having been, um, placed in that environment for a relatively short amount of time, um, and so this bill, what it, what it does is, um, it creates standards for putting, um, people in, in, in solitary confinement, and those standards are basically, like, It has to be, uh, you know, it has to be, you have to be endangering the people, the, the other incarcerated folks around you, um, in some way. And there has to be, it has to be provable, like, there has to be a preponderance of evidence. There's like an actual, like, process that you go through to prove that you're a danger, um, according to this bill. Um, and it also, um, previous versions of this bill, bill had asked the Department of Corrections to, or, or, like, they were going to force the Department of Corrections to reduce the amount of time, uh, That a person could be incarcerated in solitary confinement to 15 days, and this newer, watered down version of the bill just asks them to evaluate policies and procedures, to basically to try harder to get the average down to 15 days. Try really hard not to put somebody in solitary confinement for more than two weeks. Solitary confinement is one of the most expensive forms of incarceration. Interesting. And, and that's just because it's It's, it requires more resources to, to monitor folks who are, who are in there than it does in the general prison population, because you have to have guards for every single person rather than like a group of people, um, and you have to bring, you have to bring food to a special place. You have to, it's just requires a lot more attention, so it's really resource intensive. So you'd think that, you know, the state is in a budget deficit and is really looking to crack down on things that are. expensive, you'd think that this would be a year in which, you know, something that reduces the most expensive form of incarceration would be a no brainer for bipartisan support. What's holding this back? So, and that's, and that's kind of like the center of my story is, you know, all four of these bills have, um, these documents attached to them called fiscal notes, which is a very normal thing to be attached to a piece of legislation. Basically, all it is is it's a statement by any agency or by the legislature saying this is how much we think this bill is going to cost us. And so That tells the legislators this is how much you need to allocate in our budget when you budget for us. It's kind of putting a price tag on it. Like, if you want to buy this bill, this is how much it's going to cost. Yeah, essentially. Um, and with this bill, the Department of Corrections attached a 7 million cost to it. Um, they say that money is going to hire dozens of new employees. to reduce the amount of time incarcerated people spend in solitary confinement. Um, and so, But 7 million wasn't the first estimate of how much this would cost, right? Yeah, and so this is, this is another, um, there's all kinds of twists and turns to this story. So the, the, the bill sponsor, Strom Peterson, um, representative, he's a, he's a, um, he's a Democrat from Olympia. Um, he told me that he had to talk the DOC down from a 90 million dollar fiscal note on this bill. Um, and There wasn't really an explanation for how they were able to drop it so far, um, but they brought it down, uh, more than, more than, I guess, tenfold. I'm not sure if that's the right term for this, but they brought it down to seven million. Uh, Representative Peterson still feels like seven million is too expensive for this bill, a bill that is designed to reduce the costs of, um, or reduce the amount of the most expensive form of incarceration. He doesn't understand why the D. O. C. needs these new personnel. Um, but, uh, so, so he's requested clarification from the D. O. C. about, you know, like, like, why do you need this much money? And he's, he's waiting on a response for them, from them. So how are these fiscal notes Calculated. What kind of, you know, budgetary evidence do you have to attach to your fiscal estimate? So, I, I talked to the DOC, and this, this process is, it's somewhat articulated in the fiscal note. They're very, they're very long and complex documents. They, they provide like a narrative analysis of the bill, and they say the bill is going to require us to do X, Y, Z things. Um, but, um, Basically, there's a Department of Corrections spokesperson, Jim Kopriva, I think I'm saying that name right. I only spoke to him over email. Um, he wrote to me, he said, um, generally with fiscal notes, and I'm just quoting from his statement, DOC assigns bill analyses to our subject matter experts. So it goes to somebody who knows what the bill does, what the different parts of the bill do. They analyze the bill section by section, compare them to existing law or practice, and flag potential impacts. The analyses are then reviewed by divisional leadership and used by the budget team to prepare the fiscal note. Um, and then it goes before, uh, Once, once an, an agency representative has, has prepared the notes, it goes before an agency reviewer, uh, somebody in the same agency who will then approve it, so like checking their work. I noticed that in some of the fiscal notes, the same person in the department is both the preparer and the reviewer. It's like, I checked my own math and decided everything was fine. Um, but then it goes before, uh, the Office of Fiscal Management, which is another Uh, executive agency in the state that, um, is in charge of, like, saying, saying, you know, yeah, this, this work is correct. Um, activist told me that, you know, that office is kind of acts like a rubber stamp and usually, usually if it's fiscal notes just get approved. Oh, okay. Um. And then, and then it's attached to the bill, and it says, and then, and then you can see, like, anybody can go on the, the website that's dedicated to the bill and click on, on the little link that says, see fiscal note, and bring up exactly what, what they think the agencies, or what the agencies think it's going to cost. Um, and so average people can just go check in and see these, like, really, like, exorbitant, uh, price tags on these bills. And so that's the issue with all four of these. bills that are designed to make a life a little better for incarcerated people and also be reduce the cost of incarcerating people is that. large sticker prices or hefty fiscal notes have been attached to all of them? Well, specifically the reason, the reason it's problematic is because, as you mentioned, Washington is in a 10 billion, 12 billion budget deficit, and, uh, lawmakers are not in the mood to be approving huge expenditures in the millions of dollars, um, and so that makes it more likely that the lawmakers are going to vote against the bill and so the activist that I talked to told me that this is kind of it does one of two things so if the bill were to get approved it's kind of like a Christmas present to the agency they get this this big new appropriation um or it or it's intended to kill the bill because the um these agencies don't they they're They're really, they're full of inertia, and they don't want to, you know, they don't want to do two things. They don't want to change, and they don't want to, um, seed more of their power to people on the losing end of the spectrum, which is the prison population. So the argument from activists is that, like, since the Department of Corrections gets to say, this is how much money this proposal would cost us, that they are attaching arbitrarily high sticker prices to items that then just sort of gets rubber stamped by the oversight agency and now all of a sudden a bill that might actually save the state money and make life easier for incarcerated people is sort of tied to an ankle weight dragging it below the surface. that says this cost 90 million, whether that's true or not. That's right. And, um, and it's not that simple. It's not just the agency like, you know, representatives work with agencies to, um, introduce sections of the bill that would, that would make the bill actually really expensive. And that way, um, that way they can, um, they can say like, Oh, look at the, look at this part of the bill that we have to comply with. Um, And, yeah, yeah, it's just, it's just a way of, like, making it likely that, that the bill is going to tank. And these bills, these particular Playing politics through counting. Yeah. That's really interesting. And these, and another interesting part of it that I, that I haven't, um, figured out a way to get into my piece yet is, um, Washington doesn't do a thing called, uh, dynamic budgeting, um, which is Also, including the things that, uh, that a bill is likely to save the state. Um, so the, the part about, uh, you know, limiting, um, Solitary confinement, if that were to save, like, if you were able to attach a dollar figure to those savings, that would never make it into the fiscal note. So, so, when you So even if it might outweigh, put potentially 7 million in cost to implement, but save the state, I don't know, 30 million and have like a negative 23 million price tag, that bit, that bit of accounting is just not happening? That's right, and, and it's So, so essentially, they're just not telling the full story, um, and there are other bills that have, uh, other incarceration bills that have, um, zero dollars on the fiscal note from every department. But we'll save the, like, our, our, that, well, at least the people who propose the bill feel like the bill is going to save the state money, but, and they've done their own analyses of it, but they cannot attach that analysis to the bill because Washington does not do dynamic budgeting. So, are these kind of big sticker prices? getting attached to bills about incarceration, or is this happening across the spectrum of bills being proposed? Did you happen to have time to look into that at all? So I haven't, I haven't been able to go into other bills. It was It was a pretty intensive process, just like learning how to read the fiscal notes, because I've never written about this before. And getting to understand the bills, um, and so I've only looked at these four specific bills. But I spoke with, uh, um, State Senator Leonard Christian. And he represents, like, the Spokane Valley area? Yeah, yeah, and he was in the House of Representatives for a long time, and he's a freshman senator now. Um, But he said this, this was a common practice, um, for all kinds of bills, um, that, that state agencies didn't want to comply with, or even, you know, state industries, because I imagine they can collude with each other to, you know, try to like get big fiscal notes placed on bills. But yeah, he told me, um, in a phone interview this morning that this happens all the time. It's not just incarceration, um. But I also, on the flip side of that, I, some of the activists that I've spoken with, including some incarcerated individuals who are, people who are currently incarcerated, said that these fiscal notes are kind of a little bit of a new caliber. They're a lot higher than, um, than they have been in the past, and that's, that's due to, you know, a number of dynamics, but part of it is like there was a ton of COVID funding coming to state prisons, um, from the federal government, and a lot of that funding has dried up, and so now they have an incentive to, to attach, uh, fiscal notes to, to bills if they, if, either if they don't want to change or they, they want the money, you know, so yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the example that. I have only had time to power skim your story, but the thing that stuck out to me the most was that the original proposal of like, oh, this policy will cost us 90 million dollars and then the representative was like, really? How? And they responded, oh, actually, it will be 7 million dollars. Yeah, by a slickered wrist. And that just sort of, like, kind of flexibility in these, like, how do you come up with How do you cut 83 million dollars from, you know, an accounting of how much something would cost? That just kind of blew my mind, that detail. I think one of the, one of the things that might speak to that is, um, there's, so there's another bill, it's called House Bill 1166, and it's, um, It's basically to, what it does is it allows inmates, or sorry, incarcerated individuals, inmates is a little bit of a derogatory term, um, uh, It allows incarcerated individuals to buy technology out of their own pocket, um, to access educational resources so they can get a college degree. Um, that's what the bill is designed to do, it establishes the right for them to do that. It doesn't spend really any money. The Department of Corrections attached a 36, well an almost 37 million fiscal note to that bill saying that it needed to hire 103 new full time employees between now and 2027 to monitor the use of that technology. So, so basically to watch them use it even though the bill does not require that monitoring. Um. And I don't know what, what it's like in a prison, I've never been in one, um, but I imagine there's reasons that the DOC would want to do that monitoring. But, um, Activist told me that that's a ridiculous figure because, um, the, like, there are currently lots of employees at the DOC whose job is to monitor those kinds of things. Yeah. And so they already have the infrastructure for it. I went to school, which is not prison, but all of the computers on the school had, like on school grounds, had this sort of localized software that would stop you from looking up any, you know, banned terms or banned websites. And I am willing to bet that because I went to a very small school district, that software did not cost 37 million or anything close to it. And I can't see why something similar wouldn't be applicable, especially if incarcerated people. Are being asked to buy the devices out of their own pocket. It's not like the cost of the devices is going to cost the DOC anything. It's just the making sure they aren't doing inappropriate things with the devices when they're supposed to be getting degrees? Yeah. Yeah, essentially. I mean, like, and, and I haven't heard, I haven't heard a response back from that specific question from the DOC, so I don't, and I, and I, and I asked them that question, um, I'm, I'm waiting for them to get back to me, so I, I don't know what they're gonna say to respond to that. Um, all of the, all of these positions are spelled out in the fiscal note. They, they do have, they do have a rationale for it, um, but the, the, that I talked to really are not buying that rationale. Um, and I had, uh, Um, the, the, the formerly incarcerated individual, uh, that I talked about earlier, Karen Pesey, she, um, she was talking about a, a similar, a similar fiscal note that was asking for a bunch of new employees for, for, that was attached to another bill. Um, that my story goes into. Uh, she says, and this fiscal note asks for 23 million to hire 87. 9 new employees. Um, and she said, why do they need 87. 9 full time employees? It's just because they picked a number in the sky that would be so high to try to kill the bill. Um, and so they feel very strongly that these are just These, these are really just like intended to kill the bill. Either it's like, you know, the lawmakers are going to vote against it because it's too expensive, or, you know. If it, if it does pass and the DOC has to, has to make these changes, at least they get a big chunk of change out of it. Alright, well, that has been our time. This is your reminder that the Washington State Legislature is in session right now and will be until late April. Which means there will be a lot of bills moving through that are good, bad, somewhere in between, um, it can be really hard to stay up to date on that and also to know who to contact and how, um, and hopefully we'll be running through some more of that with you as legislative session continues. I'm Erin, that's Erin, and Free Range is a weekly news and public affairs program presented by Range Media and produced by Range Media and KYRS Community Radio. Have a good one, folks.