>> Leila Ainge: Welcome to psychologically speaking with me,

Leila Ainge. This is a podcast

all about human behaviour, weaving

together fascinating research, opinions, and real

life experiences. I'll give you a psychologist's

insight into how we behave in spaces we live

and work in, and how they in turn, shape

us. It this season, we're exploring

my favorite topic, impostor phenomenon.

So get comfy and let's dive into today's

episode. So far

this season, we've heard about different perspectives

on the impostor narrative, and today's episode

brings some of those ideas together under the umbrella

of intersectionality. Now, this is

the idea that we have overlapping

identities and, um, that these result

in different experiences of

inequality. We see this in my

research, which suggests that instead of thinking that

women have a problem with confidence, we need to

look at the system and context in which they

work. When that person is marginalized,

we find that their experiences around visibility,

competition, and comparison can be

amplified. It helps

us to frame the narrative that women might be

disproportionately impacted by impostor

experiences, not because they're less confident than

male counterparts, but because they have

access to fewer resources, that the spaces

and resources they do have access to support

systems of oppression, discrimination, and, um,

are dominated by people with privilege.

Psychologically speaking, when we reduce

someone to.

>> Leila Ainge: The identity of a woman who suffers.

>> Leila Ainge: From impostor, we ignore or miss

other important or challenging parts of that

person's identity.

>> Leila Ainge: I'm delighted to welcome my next guest.

>> Leila Ainge: And their overlapping identities for a

discussion that will absolutely change the way you think

about sustainability. Liana

Fricker is founder of Inspiration

Space. She empowers solo founders

and companies of one through passion, profit,

and impact. Her focus is on

harboring human activity with

environmental responsibility, paving the way for

a new generation of conscious

entrepreneurs. Her mission,

inspire the inspired. She

is mentor for the black business residency at

Somerset House and recognized by

Startups magazine in 2022 and

23 as one of the most

influential women in the industry.

>> Leila Ainge: So, Liana what I wanted to kind

of start out with, really, is I'm

interested in your perspective on

impostor. And, I mean, I use the phrase

impostor phenomenon and for the reasons I've set out

earlier in my podcast. Um, but

however you choose to use that phrase in your

experience, I'm interested in how that's shown up for

you. Um, and does it continue to show up for

you?

>> Liana Fricker: I suppose I am an imposter

atheist.

>> Leila Ainge: I like the way that you phrase that.

>> Liana Fricker: Uh, I'm an atheist in that. First of all, I'm an atheist

across the board, but I'm an imposter atheist. I think

that what I've realised for

myself, a, I didn't even know imposter syndrome was a thing

until, I guess, it was maybe trendy. And

so it was just everywhere. It's not something

that I have ever recognized

in myself, the way that people describe

it, what

I have had experience with. And when

people traditionally talk about imposter syndrome, and

my reply is like, I think impostor

syndrome is a sign that you're not

a BSR,

that you're

thoughtful, you are

considerate. Because the way that I always

see imposter syndrome describes that you'll put yourself forward

for things. And if I don't feel

comfortable, no, I don't self forward. If

I don't feel like I have enough information, no, I don't

talk because there's too many people that do,

and there's a lot of

windbaggery around. And so.

>> Leila Ainge: I was speaking to, um, Laura

Stern and Christina Clark of work

culturalty, and they, um, have spoken to me

about psychological safety. And that

is the essence of that isn't know, am I comfortable

in this space? Uh, have I got voice? Do

I need voice? Um, and do I feel

that I can speak up and say what needs to be said?

>> Liana Fricker: Because sometimes when I have an idea and I have a perspective

from the beginning of my career, I

have no problem voicing an

opinion and contributing in that

way if I'm not interested,

or maybe I missed it, I've got ADHD, so I didn't hear it. I

mean, there's a whole lot of reasons why I may not

contribute in a particular moment. And a lot m of

the time in particular, when I was at that point in my career where I was in rooms

with senior people as a junior person, I was

taking mental notes. I was like,

I want to sit here as a fly on the wall and just understand

the dynamic and how you're all interacting and how you're talking and learn your

language and learn your manners as I'm learning.

>> Leila Ainge: I think that's an interesting perspective. Um,

I've been in a situation recently where somebody

went, oh, it's very quiet in this meeting, and nobody ever

talks. And I took the time to

email the host afterwards and say, I

like your meetings. I like getting the

quickfire information, and it works for me, but I will contribute

a bit more. And we have this,

um, in a bit,

like we had presenteeism in

workspaces. I think there's a bit of

presenteeism of voice isn't there. It's a

bit like me having this conversation with you. I'm obviously

being mindful of giving you

space to talk and then thinking about when I come

in, but I also just want to listen to you as

well. Right?

>> Liana Fricker: And where I get frustrated with

the whole conversation around women and impostor syndrome, and I say

women in particular, is when it then starts to

come into our professional development, how we show up into our careers,

because it almost feels like

insecurity is being capitalized

on and being called

something else.

And then you almost get, like,

gaslit into action so

that you can advocate for yourself.

And then you don't feel like you're

enough because you don't know what you're talking

about, which is why you're insecure and you're

quiet, no shapes.

And then you're just constantly then being. Looking outside of yourself.

Okay, now I need a coach for this. I need a social media person for

that. I need a landing page. I need a funnel. I need this

ebook. I need this. I need more. I need more. I need more. I need more. I need

more. I need more. I'm, um. Not enough, not enough, not enough.

When, on a foundational level, every experience

you've had in your life up to that point has

informed how you even see or think about

yourself. And until

you go deep and think, why

do I feel like this? Why is this a

problem? Why do I feel it's a problem? How is it showing up for

me? What else could it be? I know

I was diagnosed with ADHD at 39. A lot

makes sense now. That didn't make sense

before. And I've recently

finished the foundation in, uh,

PQ training and mental fitness. And now I

understand even more

about how I show up and why I am the way that

I am. And I am

a black woman from America, and

I was born being told I had to work ten times as

hard for half as much. And that is the least helpful

narrative you could ever imprint someone

with.

>> Leila Ainge: I want to come in there because

this was a theme in my research,

and the research was showing that

visibility is a challenge. It's

obviously showing that, um,

our ability to speak up.

It was also saying that

certain women and women of

color, um, women with

ADHD, women just

intersections and inequality

was just an extra layer in

the muddle that is impostor.

There's a really good HBR article, and,

um, it's Rakita

Tulsan. I think I've pronounced that correctly. And, um,

she wrote this HBR article that says, stop

telling women they've got impostor syndrome.

And the whole point of her article, and I think she was probably

the first person to say, this

is. That's not impostor.

That is racism or sexism or

homophobia, or it's,

um, almost whatever ism we put against

neurodivergence. Because we have this idea

that you have to fix difference, but you don't. You

don't have to fix difference, you've got to enable

difference. And, um,

when we get that right, then

people have voice and people feel safe. But

unless you're tackling those structural issues,

nothing ever changes. But to what you said there,

those are the narratives that have fed your

career do well, work ten

times as hard. And then no wonder

we have to.

>> Liana Fricker: Ask ourselves, how complicit are we in

holding up structure? There's a movie from the

Amy's, uh, called hear no evil, see

no evil. And it's Richard Pryor and Dan Aykroyd. And

Richard Pryor is a black man who is blind. And Dan Aykroyd

is a white man who cannot hear. And there's a scene in the

movie where Dan hackroyd basically tells

Richard Pryor that he is black. And he's like, you mean I'm not

white? And Dave Chappelle has a skit.

It's a play on this as well. So this is what I mean about I was

imprinted with this narrative as a child because

my mother was imprinted with it, my father was imprinted. But this is

generational. At what point do we stop telling people

this story? Because if you are led

to believe that everything that you do

has to be exceptional to have less,

of course you're going to be a workaholic. Of course you're going to be an

infectionist. But that's

not necessarily the truth

of the existence. But it's a story that I've been

told and I've internalized that has then turned into other things

and other behaviors and other habits.

I am a human being like anyone else.

I suppose it's around the

idea that if everything

around you is always

telling you that you need to be more, you need to be better. And women,

we have this as well. If you look at us

as gender, how helpful is

that? And that's why I push against

some of the for women

only stuff that has come out over the last

decade. Because I'm like, we can

inspire and educate women until the cows come

home, but until we fix

the system and until we actually deal

with how men see women.

We will fail. So

we might as well just go on and out of the beach or something. You see what I

mean? It's almost like it's a futile

effort and so we're putting all this

energy into it. But how come it's not working? Because we need more

women. And then you've got women who's like, look, I already broke the

ceiling. I do not want to have to be the only

person asked to mentor the women in the business.

I have enough going on right now.

>> Leila Ainge: I'm going to have a wonderful, um,

woman called Deb Edwards come on to. I know

Deb and I'm

hoping to speak to her about the nonsense behind

the fact. Know women

just need more investment

and money and it doesn't seem to happen. And we

know that women have traditionally not been as connected.

Um, my current PhD research is all around

entrepreneurial networks and not really

saying, how do we make things better for women? It's going,

well. How are women carving the way and can men learn from

that? How about we

turn that the other way around? Um, but there are

definitely inequalities there

unless we fundamentally go back and go, no,

this isn't about my confidence. And this is the thing

around impostor that really gets me is that when I spoke

to women and

that narrative around ADHD, which I

think you can, um, probably

give more, um, context to than I

could was really already.

I know that concentration and memory

and organization are, ah, going to be,

um, different for me in business,

but they are the types of things that we get judged

on, on how we show up and how we're visible. And I mean,

every other post in the marketing space is be

consistent. And the women I

spoke to were going, God, these things are just so

dangerous. These narratives are dangerous, these

behaviors are dangerous. And,

um, as a psychologist, I look to

my own profession and go, wow. Nudge

theory, um, behavioral

science. We've been telling people that

consistency and doing this and subliminal messaging,

this, that and the other, we've got a lot to

answer for as well. And actually we have this huge

replication crisis in psychology going, guess, uh,

what, some of that nudge theory stuff, not been able to

replicate it. So

I think there's a lot to be said about, yes,

some things do work and they work brilliantly. Doesn't

mean you have to do it. And we were just talking

before we started recording about the fact you're going,

are we doing video? And I went, well, yeah, but I might not use

it because I had to make a decision around whether I wanted to become

a good video editor, uh, in the process of getting

this conversation out. Um, and

that, for me, boils down to a lot of

the stuff that sits around the thoughts in

our head. It's just extra noise in just

getting on with the day job.

>> Liana Fricker: Fundamentally, we're talking about the human condition.

We label the human condition. And

when I think about my ADHD, I was undiagnosed

until I was 39. Been obvious the whole

time. Um, as the mother

of boys, I say, I'm a boy mom who was raised

by a girl dad. And I do think that for

me, it gives me a very interesting sort of

insight. And both of my sons have

ADHd. I have ADHD. And

we think differently. We've got different skills, different tools.

My husband is neurotypical. And my God, I love that neurotypical

mind because that neurotypical mind means we don't miss flights.

The machine runs with that

beautiful mindset. And he often jokes that he's

the neurodiverse where in our house. Because he is.

>> Leila Ainge: Yeah, sorry, you said that, um, it was obvious.

Was it obvious to you?

>> Liana Fricker: It's obvious to the bumps. It was like, without a

shadow of doubt, it was obvious

in women. Girls, it presents differently. But

again, this is where that kind of whole intersection comes

in. I m was reading the

book, and now for the life of me, I can't remember the name of it because

age. And

for every

positive comment that a neurotypical

child gets, an ADHD child

gets 20 negative ones.

>> Leila Ainge: Yeah.

>> Liana Fricker: And so you just think about. So imagine a world where you've

already been told you've got to work ten times hard for five

times as much.

For every one positive comment, you're

getting 20 negative ones.

Yes, it's. A lot exists, but we all are

so complicit in reinforcing these stories because

they're just stories. They're stories.

This is what we tell people. What is normal, what is not

normal, what success is, what happiness

is. For one person, happiness is the pursuit of

endless consumer goods. And for another person, it's a

nap. That's why the environment is in the

state that it's in, because we're constantly chasing outside of

ourselves to live up to these stories that we didn't

even create. And this is the

problem.

>> Leila Ainge: I always like to kind of frame things from a point

of how do we bring empowerment into this?

Because that takes away the emotion of doing

things in a particular way, right or wrong, that m

empowerment looks like, okay, I can try

this. I can have a go at this. I might not be there yet, but I

know I can have a go and I can fail safe.

And I wonder, um, how

that falls into where we are with the

sustainability agenda. And that was why I was really excited

to get you on, because you're

really working in that space. And I'm going to get

you to describe to me in a nutshell what sustainability

means to you. But I wondered if we could talk about

how impostor, uh, experience

kind of comes into that. Because often we feel like we

have to be a bit of an expert in something to have a voice or an opinion

or to make a change. But if

we're looking at that empowerment frame,

how might imposter experiences hold us back? But

first up, what is

sustainability to you? And what could it be

for us?

>> Liana Fricker: I suppose, great question.

For me, the word

sustainability, it's a buzword. It's jargon.

And the word is meaningless. To be perfectly honest, it means nothing to me,

the word at all. Seriously, it doesn't mean

anything because it's a buzword

and it's about

how you live. We m

can talk all we want. What we

have to do now is to change

behavior. And, ah, for

me, quote unquote, sustainability is

about living my life,

uh, in a way, and inspiring others to live their lives in

a way that is equitable

and inclusive and

balanced in between

humanity and the world. The earth

that we live on, because the reality is no one gives a shit

about the planet. And I say that because

the earth is going to earth. But climate has always

changed. You can look back through the history

of time m and see how a change in climate has

changed human behavior, but which

hunt when we look at

racism, in particular in the

colonial times, and these narratives that we have around black

and brown people being tired and lazy,

how the heat affects your

sensibilities. This is climate. The climate has always

changed. And people have always used their knowledge of climate to

control behavior. It's

documented. And so what we have to do

is to stop pretending like we're these omnipotent forces that all of a

sudden we're going to put the genie back in the bottle.

The Earth is going to Earth. The only person that lost

know the great asteroid were the dinosaurs. Earth

is still here. So we have to

kind of not be.

So I don't

know even like, uh, what the word would be. But

we need to realize that we live on a

planet that we impact, of

course. But what's more important for

me are the people on this planet and how they

are impacted by the change

in the climate. And so if we think about this as

a hamburger, on the one side we have adaption,

on uh, the other we have mitigation. And in the middle we have

justice. It's about climate

justice. Because in the global north

we use so much resource.

>> Leila Ainge: Mhm.

>> Liana Fricker: And that has a detriment, not

only environmentally, but when we think about

the pollution in water because of fast fashion,

we think about how much stuff we buy

clothing that we then send to charity shops, that then

ends up on the beaches of Ghana, that then

destroys local textile markets.

That's the biggest problem, right?

That is the problem. And we have control over our

behavior. People. Oh, the companies, the companies. The companies

sell to the people who buy Bella stuff.

>> Leila Ainge: I love what you're saying here. And to bring that back

into a psychological frame, um,

the psychologist Katie Milton is all about habits

and um, how we make better

choices, right? And

um, there's this

economic bias which is we're

unable to make good choices when it doesn't give us

that instant gratification. We tend to be

biased towards. I'm going to eat my cake now

and not worry about my long term health goals.

And um, at the point at which we're recording this, it's

currently January. So at the moment everybody's talking

about whether they're keeping their goals or letting

them go. And a lot of habit setting

fails because we're focused on the end goal,

which seems very far away. And

I love what you've just done there because you've instantly

just said to me, carbon literacy, let's

just boil it down to this simple thing of use

less. And actually, how do you

boil that down to yourself? And you frame that

within, perfectly within an ADHD way,

which is, well, I don't have time and I don't have to think and it takes the choice

out. And I just love how you've done that.

And for me, I think there's a real skill in the

way that you do that, uh, conversation.

And that helps me kind of

talk about the way in which we tend to think of

experts. Because yes,

you can understand the discrete detail and

the nuance around sustainability targets

and what that might mean for modeling and this, that and the

other. But what most of us need to

hear and understand is just relatable

stories and narratives.

>> Liana Fricker: And this is where that carbon literacy. So carbon literacy is

actually an understanding of

your impact on the planet

and the climate crisis and how human

behavior changes or

has changed here, right? In

a nutshell. And it's an actual credited course that

you go on. It's one day training. And it's amazing because you

do learn the science, so that when someone

is making a point, well, it's

cold. I thought it was global warming. Well, you're talking about weather, and

weather and climate aren't the same. And

understanding that this

is about, in particular, if you're in the global

north, how

disproportionate our extraction has

been. Um, and how

disproportionately the global south

feels. Droughts,

floods. And now what's happening is that this is coming home to roost

in the global north, you see? So it's like, this

train is not going to be late. And

we do have to change our behavior, which is why it's about

adaption mitigation. And in the middle, it's about climate

justice. It's ensuring that people who live

in urban city centers don't have

to worry about their children in asthma

because people are mad about congestion charges.

This impacts us on our streets all the time

in our lives. We just don't realize because we don't have the language. And that's where that

ignorance comes in once you're carbon literate. In the same way, if you were

financially literate and you understand how money

works and how you can get your money to work for you, you

can then make informed choices. And what I have found

is I don't have climate

anxiety because I have this

understanding of how this is all playing out.

And I'm not saying this is not a threat. It is a threat.

Of course it is. But I

also know that

each one of us can do something

so small to change it.

And you can combine that with something

that enriches your life,

instead of getting in the car,

walking with the kids to

wherever you can go, instead of, uh. And this

is where I find, and this is where the cost of living crisis comes

in. Because we also shame around money.

Instead of saying, oh, I can't afford it, because you

can't afford it, you can look at the environmental

impact, oh, well, we can't

go to the Maldives. Not because we can't afford it,

but because of the environmental impact. So if you want to be

Saint amalgamus, go have that moment for yourself.

I can't buy the Chanel bag.

The fact that I can't afford it doesn't even have to go in the conversation.

I'm trying to change my consumption habit. Then

all of a sudden, we don't need to look outside of ourselves.

We buy stuff because the world told us, you'll

feel good when you buy it. I always get really annoyed when people are

like, uh, retail

therapy. I'm like, no, you're going to go tell somebody to

smoke because they don't feel good. No. Could you imagine

if people were posting things around smoking because they had a bad day?

Everyone would be like, oh, you were a monster.

But people would feel if you treat yourself to that

8th, those stupid flasks with all the

colors.

>> Leila Ainge: I've got a wonderful conversation as part of this

series with Samantha Harmon, who's the style editor.

And she talks, know, just these

wardrobe graveyards that we've got. I, um,

want to pose something to you. Um, and

it's this idea that with

a classic impostor experience

is our fear of being

called out. And, um,

the statement that kept coming up in the research with

my participants was very, what if they say I'm

wrong?

>> Liana Fricker: And, um.

>> Leila Ainge: My kind of comeback on that, I think as a psychologist

is kind of going, yeah, isn't it interesting that

we sit there worrying about this? But where and

how are we giving people the skills

to, um, come back from those

types of questions? Because we know it happens. We know

that, especially on LinkedIn, I think

spaces like that, um, it

invites very open challenge and

critique, which is good. Conversation is good if

it's done respectfully. Um, but

where are we training people on how

to. Or educating them, um, on how to come back from things

and what you've just said there, I wonder if that talks to it a little

bit in terms of when you get yourself

educated on a few things, then it's easy to come back and

go, yeah, that's weather, that's climate, and

you can really dampen down a fiery

conversation because there's nothing worse than feeling like you're getting into a

polarized conversation, and that's not what

you're aiming to do that day. You don't want to have a big

conversation on LinkedIn or Instagram with somebody you don't know about,

a big topic, um, but you still want

to be yourself. And I wonder if you've got

a view on that at all.

>> Liana Fricker: That's really interesting. The wheels in my head are turning whenever I make

facial expressions. I can think you.

What I find very interesting about that is in the first instance,

when you first asked the question, the first thing I was like, why would someone tell

you you were wrong? And that goes back to what I'm talking about. It's like,

I don't speak unless I think I'm right.

There is no such thing as an expert. First of

all, there's no such thing as an expert. So

I don't consider myself to be an expert. I am a human being with a

perspective and an opinion.

Nothing. And then this is

what I mean about these narratives and stuff and where it's like, we've got to

go so much deeper than that. If you're worried that someone's going to call you

out for being wrong, we have to ask more questions about

why you're worried someone's going to call you out for being

wrong. How do you see yourself? Because if you're walking

around, be like, but I'm an expert. I'm supposed to show up like this. Well, there's no such thing as

an expert. It's all so much deeper for me

than that, which is why I find that question so interesting, because it's like,

well, why is that the

worry? Because in particular

circumstance where you can control. You're

opening your mouth so you can

control that.

There's a lot of stuff that I engage in and I see that I

don't comment on because I don't have value to add. I don't have

a perspective and nothing to say. That's not imposter

syndrome, it's just time management. Right? So

energy, we have to tell people

they have to be talking. This is a real

thing. And it comes in like, to have a business

grow your brand, you got to be on Instagram x number of times a day. But

that's just them talking. And this has an environmental

impact because all of this uses

energy. The servers, the

AI, the streaming, this all part

of the same thing.

>> Leila Ainge: Where I got to with this is, uh,

I know in coaching conversations

it would go to just always be curious

when people have a different perspective and viewpoint

because it's an emotion leveler.

Curiosity is the answer to most things. And,

oh, I wonder why they've got that perspective. Take

pause and, hey, maybe don't reply straight

away. Also, we know that there are

people who are not as m curious and therefore their opinion

will be fairly rigid. Well, hey, that's for them

to go and find the right time to do that

self reflection and get to that point. But

we don't have to call that out either.

So it's a really interesting thing. So

a lot of my research is around the

online and social space, and it's such an

interesting place where we think about how we engage as

humans. As a cyberpsychologist,

I believe that online is an extension of

real life. It isn't separate. It's totally

interweaved. Um, but also

it's not a bad place to be. I don't feel that it's a

negative place that's making us into horrible people

or causing addiction. I think that

we are the type of people who are very social and get

addicted to things. And therefore, when you give us a platform,

we'll also get ourselves very socially attached to it

and addicted. So it's

separating out things. And then I think what we also

see is then a very, um, kind

of strong,

undiluted version of

people in spaces such as the

comments section. But there are definitely, I

think, um, coming back to what we

know is intersections. If you are a woman

entrepreneur in a space that has been

predominantly, um, filled with

male experts, then perhaps that's

going to throw you more attention than other people.

But yeah, it's just such an interesting concept because

that narrative comes through to people who

talk about impostor. They go, what if I'm wrong? And

there's a, um, participant and her pseudonym is

Asima. And you know,

what if I'm wrong? What if they say I'm wrong? And this

person is more than qualified to say what

they want to say. And actually, they don't even need to be qualified

to say it. They happen to be a yoga teacher. But even if they weren't

qualified and just loved yoga, you can say what you

want. You can say that, um, there's no law

against saying it unless it's offensive.

>> Liana Fricker: What do you think about the Internet? Use something.

Because I'm a very online person. I've been a very online person

since the days of AOL and plugging it

in on the phone. That generation of

people, and

now with AI,

people are producing more content that has ever been

created before. And that's not a good thing

because it dilutes everything and

everything becomes noisy. And

it's very easy to create bots

and they can then just respond to stuff and then

add to more noise. And how many

comments are actually even people? And some people,

they like the dopamine rush of being online and fighting online

because in their actual life they're disempowered from using

their own voice. And so they take it out in the comment section.

And this is where that empathy piece comes in. Empathy is big.

Like, why is someone showing up like that? And

we have to work on ourselves first so

that we have resilience. So that

should someone clack back in the comment section, we

can look at it, approach it with empathy,

curiosity, maybe comment

back maybe ignore it, but not let that

slow us down. If

we felt that the message we wanted to share

needed to be shared, and then that goes back into,

we don't always have to be talking, but if

you were talking because someone told you that to get ahead in your

career, to grow your business, you had to talk. And the message you

put out there, you weren't confident about because you don't actually know that much

about it, but someone told you you had to. Yeah.

I can understand why you might be nervous if someone comes back because you wouldn't know

it. And then this is

where this all kind of starts to come

in together and you have to think

about what is it in it for

me? What's in it for

me? And play to

your strengths. I try to design failure out

of my existence so that

my life is easier. I've

turned using the word discipline, which triggers

me into self love, which actually came from a

call conversation I had earlier today. So thank you, James.

>> Leila Ainge: Um.

>> Liana Fricker: Discipline triggers me, but discipline

sounds like the point of the game is to

fight as hard as you can against your own, um, instincts

by your nature, then that obviously comes from my

ADHD. So if

I don't have to fight against

my nature because I designed my existence to be in

flow, I don't meet discipline. But now we're calling it self

love, so it is that, and that's where that

consistency comes in. I think consistency is a

beautiful thing. This is also why I really like PQ trainings,

because with my brain, my ADHD,

it has helped me rewire the impact

that my central nervous system has over certain things

and to then stop getting myself into

these self sabotage loops, which would ultimately create

more stress and overwhelm

and to create new habits by

having more honest conversations with myself, doing things

differently. And that is this form of

consistency because it's got to come with ease, and it

comes with ease when you're intrinsically motivated,

not when you feel bullied by yourself.

>> Leila Ainge: From a psychological perspective, we kind of think about

this as kind, um, of like a hostile

attribution bias.

Let me frame this. Rejection. Um,

so, uh, ADHD and rejection

and that kind of sense of

sensitivity to rejection can be very strong

for some people with ADHD.

>> Liana Fricker: Not everyone so wise, but for some better.

>> Leila Ainge: Yeah. So

when you have that reaction to

rejection,

it can result in a behavior which is very

hostile. And that's what you're kind of describing there,

isn't it? But you don't have to have ADHD

to know what that looks and feels like. I think that's a common

human, um, experience.

It's more pronounced and it's

more challenging for some people than others.

But we do tend, and coming back to some of that stuff

around Katie Milkman and psychology of

choice and taking an easy road,

um, being able to go

through, push through things that are easy rather

than hard. There's a sweet spot, though, isn't

there? And the psychologist in me is going, Leela. Yeah, but a

little bit of stress is good, and we know that, but

it's such a really

interesting dynamic around how much stress is

okay, how much challenge, how much we need to

be kicked up the backside to make a change and

to take action, how

much we need to be empowered. And I think

a lot of these conversations sit underneath that,

uh, bubbling cauldron of impostor,

as I would describe it, the old world impostor

syndrome, actually, when we start to go

right down into the deep depths and the

roots of how this has happened is how we've been told

to think and feel. It's how we show up in

the world, and it's also how we know

to make good choices for ourselves. And if you've never been

taught or you've never seen that behavior around

you, people making those good choices, how would you

know? Um, so I love what you're

saying. It's really giving me

different ways to think about sustainability. And

I'm definitely questioning now that earlier

conversation we had where I said, oh, yes, well, about

the video and not having to worry about showing up

all presented brilliantly and having my

hair done and this, that, and the other. And I'm now thinking,

maybe I just say, actually,

it's a probably good thing, and I'm contributing to not

adding hours of video to the Internet.

>> Liana Fricker: This is it. This is exactly it.

I'm glad you said it, because I was going to say that you weren't. Exactly.

This is exactly it. It's just

reframing what

already exists. When we think about

rejection, the humans are wired

to not want to be rejected, because back when we lived

off the land, that meant you were probably going to start, right?

So being outcast is no great,

uh, none of us want that neurotypical neurodiverse whatever.

And then the stories that we're told, how

we show up and then some of what we think is good

and what we think is bad. One of my big insights over the last kind

of four months is what I thought

was good is not good for

me. And that turns into

the hustle culture, the

rise and grind. If

you want to start a business and you're not working on it 80 hours

a week or you haven't quit your full time job, you're not serious about

it. That's not healthy.

And for a long time, not only did I internalize that,

I shared it. And

it's like, no, that's why people burn out. That's

why people can't recognize what's enough. That's why people can't have

gratitude. That's why people end up divorced

or smoking or this or that. Because we've

been taught to, uh, believe that that is a good thing,

that we are more worthy when we work more

hours. And that is not

true at all.

>> Leila Ainge: There's this whole thing around slow down to speed up.

For me at the moment, that seems to kind

of be coming into my life not only because I am,

um, working, I am, um,

researching and

parenting and that softer

kindness coming through and saying,

I don't have to feel that I'm in a hustle

place or trying to meet. I mean,

I think this podcast, I'd originally thought it might

launch in September last year, and actually

that just wasn't going to work for me. Um,

and I changed the date and I don't think anybody

noticed apart from me.

It is what it is. But there's also a

joy with human nature, I think, around

the fact that we can allow ourselves to concertina our

effort and we can ramp up and we

can achieve brilliant things under pressure when

we need to. Um, that for me, feels

more like the resiliency conversations around the ability to

do it when you need to and be able to have the recovery

and bounce back time. But it's not that

sustainable state, is it? That's

the problematic point that you talk to around

divorce and bad health and poor

outcomes in life.

>> Liana Fricker: And I love nothing more than going, like, when I'm all in, I'm m

all in. And I love that energy. I love that

energy. Where it started to become

toxic for me was when I didn't have that

energy.

And the

lack of energy would ruminate in my head

around that. You're supposed to, but you must, you

need to, you must. And the thing is,

it wasn't inspiring me to action, it was

just adding more anxiety. So then instead

of like flight or flight, it was like just the old freeze and

flop. And I hate freeze and flop. I hate freeze and flop

more than fight flight, hate freeze. I was like the

worst, the worst.

>> Leila Ainge: I've not heard the flop. I hear a lot of iterations

on this, like um, fight, flight,

freeze form, but I've not heard the flop

a Jackie power.

I use this, um, in my paper on

impostor. I, um, talk about how actually,

the way in which women that I spoke to described

impostor. And, um, I'm going to say a long word that

I might fail at saying now, a phenomenological,

um, analysis of people's

conversations. And so the words that

women used, um, about impostor were very

dynamic, energetic words like whoosh

and waterfall. And

you think about crescendos and a build up of

something, and then it's crashing down, this failure or this

stress point. Um, and I talked about that fight and

flight response to impostor as well. So

it's all part of the psyche and how we think

about these things as well. It all meshes

together. It's been an

illuminating conversation, which I think I knew it would

be. I first met you, um, well,

I saw you rather than meet you at the doing it for the

kids, um, meetup in 2023,

and I wanted to speak to you,

but I was so exhausted by chatting

to lots of wonderful people that I sat on a sofa

and just thought, I'll make contact. And I'm so

glad that I did. And I really appreciate you coming

on to share your experiences of

intersections and how that comes with

impostor. I think the bit

that I've really enjoyed is just

how you have, um, changed the way I'm thinking

about sustainability a bit. And I hope that people who are

listening to this can take something from that as well. It's

such a different perspective and you are just a

brilliant storyteller. I think that's what I know you

for.

>> Liana Fricker: Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here.

Um, anyone who's listening, thank you very much.

And if you take anything away from this conversation,

just know that the most powerful tools

that you have are your inspiration and

your ability to choose.

>> Leila Ainge: Absolutely. Thank you.

>> Leila Ainge: That's it for today. I hope you

learned something new, or perhaps I've

given you a new way to think about what you

experience. A quick

reminder that rating and reviewing all

the podcasts you love really does help other

people find them, which is especially

appreciated by independent

podcasters. For more

psychological insights, you'll find all the

ways you can connect with me in the show

notes.

>> Leila Ainge: You.

>> Leila Ainge: Thanks for listening to, psychologically speaking

with me, Leela Ainge

M bye for now.