1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,450 You found the backup wrap up your go-to podcast for all things 2 00:00:04,450 --> 00:00:07,210 backup recovery and cyber recovery. 3 00:00:07,780 --> 00:00:13,420 In this episode, we explore how to get an actual return on your investment out of 4 00:00:13,420 --> 00:00:18,400 your backups instead of just treating them as an expensive insurance policy that. 5 00:00:19,090 --> 00:00:21,339 Sits around and waits for a disaster. 6 00:00:22,060 --> 00:00:26,380 Ask yourself, what if your backup infrastructure could 7 00:00:26,380 --> 00:00:28,390 actually pay dividends? 8 00:00:28,630 --> 00:00:30,070 Make your company money. 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,290 Persona and I dig into practical ways to extract an ROA from your backups. 10 00:00:35,605 --> 00:00:40,225 Through test environments, security monitoring, compliance, checking, 11 00:00:40,345 --> 00:00:45,295 and even, and especially these days, AI powered analytics. 12 00:00:45,895 --> 00:00:50,275 We'll show you how the shift from tape to disc opened up these possibilities that 13 00:00:50,605 --> 00:00:52,945 were honestly simply impossible before. 14 00:00:53,695 --> 00:00:57,505 If you've ever wondered whether there's more to backup than just crossing your 15 00:00:57,505 --> 00:01:02,725 fingers and hoping that you'll never need to use them, well this episode's for you. 16 00:01:03,805 --> 00:01:08,185 By the way, if you don't know who I am, I'm w Curtis Preston, AKA, Mr. 17 00:01:08,185 --> 00:01:08,665 Backup. 18 00:01:09,115 --> 00:01:14,005 And, uh, I've been doing, uh, backups for over 30 years. 19 00:01:14,035 --> 00:01:18,895 Uh, basically ever since I had to tell my boss that there were no backups of the 20 00:01:18,895 --> 00:01:20,995 production database that we had just lost. 21 00:01:21,535 --> 00:01:26,365 I didn't want that to happen to me again, and I don't want that to happen to you. 22 00:01:26,425 --> 00:01:27,835 That's why I do this. 23 00:01:28,210 --> 00:01:33,430 On this podcast, we turn unappreciated backup admins into cyber recovery heroes. 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,830 This is the backup wrap up. 25 00:01:50,572 --> 00:01:51,442 Welcome to the show. 26 00:01:52,282 --> 00:01:52,672 Hi. 27 00:01:52,672 --> 00:01:55,402 Welcome to Backup Central's, restore it All podcast. 28 00:01:55,402 --> 00:01:57,172 I'm your host, w Curtis Preston. 29 00:01:57,712 --> 00:02:04,522 And with me, as always is my fellow DIY enthusiast persona. 30 00:02:04,672 --> 00:02:05,482 Molly Yondi. 31 00:02:05,482 --> 00:02:07,132 Welcome to the Club Persona. 32 00:02:07,732 --> 00:02:08,542 Thank you, Curtis. 33 00:02:08,542 --> 00:02:12,562 Although, to be fair, this is not my first DIY, 34 00:02:13,402 --> 00:02:14,362 No, it's not. 35 00:02:14,362 --> 00:02:14,902 But I don't know. 36 00:02:14,902 --> 00:02:17,917 I just feel like this was, this was something special. 37 00:02:18,202 --> 00:02:22,672 but it's the first one where I've had to make multiple trips to Home 38 00:02:22,672 --> 00:02:28,612 Depot in order to figure out, and it's funny, so to explain what's going on. 39 00:02:28,612 --> 00:02:32,782 So over the weekend I had a water shutoff valve for our 40 00:02:32,812 --> 00:02:34,792 sprinkler system that was leaking. 41 00:02:34,792 --> 00:02:37,762 So I was like, okay, I should fix it because it's starting to get summertime 42 00:02:38,122 --> 00:02:39,322 and it's probably best to do that. 43 00:02:39,322 --> 00:02:39,742 So. 44 00:02:40,672 --> 00:02:43,882 I was like, oh, let me try, and I, been delaying this, by 45 00:02:43,882 --> 00:02:44,902 the way, for a year and a half, 46 00:02:45,622 --> 00:02:45,952 Yeah, 47 00:02:46,042 --> 00:02:47,272 like all of a sudden it started leaking. 48 00:02:47,272 --> 00:02:51,022 Like I basically just turned it off because then it would stop leaking. 49 00:02:51,022 --> 00:02:52,582 So it hasn't been working for a year and a half. 50 00:02:53,092 --> 00:02:54,622 so no, no sprinkling. 51 00:02:54,667 --> 00:02:56,077 Yeah, no sprinkle. 52 00:02:56,107 --> 00:02:59,467 I literally would fill up, like, you know those, I dunno if you have 53 00:02:59,467 --> 00:03:03,427 a Costco, but Costco sells like the mango juices and like those giant, 54 00:03:03,427 --> 00:03:04,987 like half a gallon or one gallon 55 00:03:05,127 --> 00:03:05,547 Mm-hmm. 56 00:03:05,827 --> 00:03:08,317 the lingerers, I would fill that with water from the kitchen sink 57 00:03:08,317 --> 00:03:09,817 and then go and water the plants. 58 00:03:12,037 --> 00:03:14,977 So yes, so eventually I was like, okay, I should fix this. 59 00:03:14,977 --> 00:03:17,017 So I was like, okay, it. 60 00:03:17,017 --> 00:03:19,987 And I'm like, oh, it's one of those plastic shutoff valves that has a ball. 61 00:03:19,987 --> 00:03:20,617 So I was like. 62 00:03:21,547 --> 00:03:24,067 I know it's gonna be difficult if I have to replace it because you have 63 00:03:24,067 --> 00:03:27,577 to like PVC, you gotta put glue, you gotta piece everything together. 64 00:03:27,577 --> 00:03:28,747 I'm like, that's a huge project. 65 00:03:29,827 --> 00:03:31,897 I was like, let me do the easy way first. 66 00:03:32,287 --> 00:03:34,417 So I Googled on YouTube and they're like, Hey, there's 67 00:03:34,417 --> 00:03:36,157 this O ring inside that leaks. 68 00:03:36,157 --> 00:03:39,577 And so what you do is you just like pull off the handle and I pull out the 69 00:03:39,577 --> 00:03:42,637 O ring and replace the O-ring and put it back together and you're all good to go. 70 00:03:43,837 --> 00:03:44,647 So I was like, sweet. 71 00:03:44,827 --> 00:03:50,077 So I started on that and process of removing the handle, I broke the handle. 72 00:03:50,722 --> 00:03:51,012 Yeah. 73 00:03:51,577 --> 00:03:57,277 And, uh, I went to like five different stores, bought five different valves 74 00:03:57,277 --> 00:04:00,637 and took 'em apart to see if one of the handles, because I was like, 75 00:04:00,637 --> 00:04:01,807 oh, lemme just replace the handle. 76 00:04:02,857 --> 00:04:04,057 none of the handles would fit. 77 00:04:04,732 --> 00:04:05,512 Nice. 78 00:04:05,917 --> 00:04:07,177 I was like, oh man. 79 00:04:07,177 --> 00:04:09,667 So now I was like, okay, I'm screwed. 80 00:04:10,417 --> 00:04:12,067 then I was like, okay, I gotta bite the bullet. 81 00:04:12,277 --> 00:04:16,027 What was going to hopefully be like a 30 minute project has now 82 00:04:16,027 --> 00:04:17,347 gone on for an hour and a half. 83 00:04:18,142 --> 00:04:18,562 Yeah. 84 00:04:18,697 --> 00:04:23,227 been to the first store yet, so I went to the Home Depot and I met 85 00:04:23,437 --> 00:04:28,207 this one really awesome guy who works there Eric shout out to you. 86 00:04:28,507 --> 00:04:31,117 Uh, but he was like, Hey, this is exactly what you need. 87 00:04:31,117 --> 00:04:33,007 And he's like, Hey, instead of doing what you're thinking of 88 00:04:33,007 --> 00:04:34,657 doing, you just replace everything. 89 00:04:34,897 --> 00:04:36,007 You'll be much happier. 90 00:04:36,067 --> 00:04:37,837 And he like told me exactly what I needed. 91 00:04:37,837 --> 00:04:38,797 He walked me through it, 92 00:04:39,217 --> 00:04:39,507 Yeah. 93 00:04:39,547 --> 00:04:42,937 bought everything, took it home, and then started putting it together. 94 00:04:43,732 --> 00:04:46,072 Because remember at this point we don't have water in the house. 95 00:04:46,762 --> 00:04:47,482 Right, right. 96 00:04:47,692 --> 00:04:50,962 uh, so we started putting everything together, called Curtis a bunch 97 00:04:50,962 --> 00:04:52,762 of times, put it together. 98 00:04:52,942 --> 00:04:54,772 I was like, it dripped, it leaked. 99 00:04:54,772 --> 00:04:55,492 I was like, Ugh. 100 00:04:55,912 --> 00:05:00,082 So then slowly like tyd it and all the rest there's, and so at least 101 00:05:00,082 --> 00:05:01,342 now I have water in the house. 102 00:05:01,342 --> 00:05:04,342 I haven't finished the rest of the sprinkler stuff, there's 103 00:05:04,372 --> 00:05:06,322 a slight, slight, slight drip. 104 00:05:06,322 --> 00:05:08,332 So now I have to shut off the water and redo everything. 105 00:05:08,482 --> 00:05:11,002 But it's, it was like four trips to 106 00:05:11,232 --> 00:05:11,452 But 107 00:05:12,172 --> 00:05:12,502 and. 108 00:05:13,177 --> 00:05:13,627 Yeah. 109 00:05:13,987 --> 00:05:16,867 Yeah, but, and you, and you know, and you know what you did wrong at this point. 110 00:05:16,867 --> 00:05:18,217 You know what the, the problem is. 111 00:05:18,217 --> 00:05:18,547 Yeah. 112 00:05:18,622 --> 00:05:24,892 And I, uh, talked to my DIY expert, otherwise known as Mr. Backup, and, 113 00:05:24,892 --> 00:05:26,692 uh, he was like, uh, send me a picture. 114 00:05:26,692 --> 00:05:29,542 So I sent you a picture and you looked at it and you're like, uh, 115 00:05:29,812 --> 00:05:31,612 you put the Teflon tape on backwards. 116 00:05:31,612 --> 00:05:32,337 I was like, oh, ah. 117 00:05:34,222 --> 00:05:34,792 Yeah. 118 00:05:35,212 --> 00:05:37,647 Gotta put the Teflon tape in the direction of the threads. 119 00:05:37,647 --> 00:05:37,927 Yeah, 120 00:05:37,962 --> 00:05:40,912 Yeah, well, it's also one of those things because it was like it's 121 00:05:40,912 --> 00:05:43,792 going in the opposite direction because it had double-sided thread. 122 00:05:43,792 --> 00:05:44,452 So I was like, ah, 123 00:05:44,527 --> 00:05:44,817 yeah. 124 00:05:45,472 --> 00:05:46,582 so it's okay. 125 00:05:46,582 --> 00:05:48,952 At least I know what I need to do, but now I gotta shut off 126 00:05:48,952 --> 00:05:50,452 the water and then do that. 127 00:05:50,452 --> 00:05:50,812 So, 128 00:05:52,162 --> 00:05:55,192 Yeah, you got, you had a whole, but I mean, the thing that I saw there were a 129 00:05:55,192 --> 00:05:59,212 whole bunch of threads because you got like, you got like the nipple plus the 130 00:05:59,212 --> 00:06:01,702 adapter plus the, the shut up, you know? 131 00:06:01,702 --> 00:06:02,062 Yeah. 132 00:06:02,242 --> 00:06:02,392 Yeah. 133 00:06:02,392 --> 00:06:02,752 You good? 134 00:06:02,812 --> 00:06:03,442 And then the thing 135 00:06:03,652 --> 00:06:04,012 Yeah. 136 00:06:04,612 --> 00:06:05,062 and so, yeah. 137 00:06:05,992 --> 00:06:06,292 But 138 00:06:06,442 --> 00:06:06,727 Good times. 139 00:06:06,832 --> 00:06:10,552 it's not too much longer and I won't need to go back to 140 00:06:10,552 --> 00:06:12,112 Home Depot, but we shall see. 141 00:06:13,207 --> 00:06:14,377 Oh, don't say things like that. 142 00:06:14,752 --> 00:06:14,902 Hmm. 143 00:06:15,487 --> 00:06:16,177 Um, 144 00:06:16,252 --> 00:06:16,432 least 145 00:06:16,477 --> 00:06:20,227 so, um, yeah, and we're, we're not even gonna talk about why 146 00:06:20,227 --> 00:06:21,457 I'm mad at Home Depot right now. 147 00:06:21,517 --> 00:06:25,567 So, um, let's just say for the first time ever I'm actually 148 00:06:25,567 --> 00:06:26,552 hiring them to do something. 149 00:06:26,827 --> 00:06:29,737 And it has not been a fun process, but 150 00:06:29,812 --> 00:06:30,742 is the exact opposite. 151 00:06:30,742 --> 00:06:32,842 'cause normally I'm not a fan of Home Depot 'cause I can 152 00:06:32,842 --> 00:06:34,012 never find someone to help me. 153 00:06:34,867 --> 00:06:35,347 yeah. 154 00:06:35,392 --> 00:06:35,872 talked about 155 00:06:35,887 --> 00:06:36,247 Yeah. 156 00:06:36,592 --> 00:06:36,922 before and 157 00:06:36,997 --> 00:06:37,387 Yeah. 158 00:06:37,462 --> 00:06:39,772 Depot 'cause you're like, I know exactly what I need. 159 00:06:39,772 --> 00:06:41,752 And now our like, uh, roles are reversed. 160 00:06:41,842 --> 00:06:42,232 So 161 00:06:42,937 --> 00:06:43,447 Yeah. 162 00:06:43,507 --> 00:06:44,137 Weird, huh? 163 00:06:44,182 --> 00:06:44,752 full moon. 164 00:06:46,447 --> 00:06:48,817 It's um, well actually, you know what? 165 00:06:48,817 --> 00:06:51,847 Today is the day we're recording it, it's Haley's Comet Day. 166 00:06:52,912 --> 00:06:52,942 Oh, 167 00:06:53,497 --> 00:06:54,397 Haley's comets. 168 00:06:55,087 --> 00:06:57,127 They're, they're saying, yeah, it is saying tomorrow, but they're 169 00:06:57,127 --> 00:07:00,877 saying tonight and tomorrow night we should get some real meteor 170 00:07:00,877 --> 00:07:02,587 showers, um, from Haley's comment. 171 00:07:03,577 --> 00:07:04,627 So anyway. 172 00:07:05,677 --> 00:07:09,667 Well, we are gonna talk about some fun stuff today. 173 00:07:10,147 --> 00:07:17,497 Um, you know, we talk about in backup a lot, one of the issues 174 00:07:17,557 --> 00:07:23,677 that people have with backup is that it's just a money sink, right. 175 00:07:23,887 --> 00:07:24,667 A money pit. 176 00:07:24,967 --> 00:07:25,327 Right. 177 00:07:25,567 --> 00:07:30,607 It's just, it doesn't ever, it never brings any value. 178 00:07:31,132 --> 00:07:33,262 To the business unless, 179 00:07:33,382 --> 00:07:33,772 need it. 180 00:07:34,042 --> 00:07:35,902 until you really, really, really need it. 181 00:07:35,902 --> 00:07:36,172 right? 182 00:07:36,172 --> 00:07:36,802 It's like your car 183 00:07:36,802 --> 00:07:37,192 Yeah, 184 00:07:37,222 --> 00:07:37,342 your 185 00:07:37,552 --> 00:07:38,572 yeah, exactly. 186 00:07:39,112 --> 00:07:39,472 Right. 187 00:07:39,472 --> 00:07:41,662 And, and yeah, and like, yeah, and like. 188 00:07:42,022 --> 00:07:46,762 Most insurance, it adds no value to your life unless 189 00:07:46,762 --> 00:07:48,742 really bad things happen, right? 190 00:07:49,342 --> 00:07:55,522 And so this episode is about are there other things that we 191 00:07:55,522 --> 00:08:00,112 could be doing with our backups that would potentially at least, 192 00:08:02,357 --> 00:08:05,542 I don't know, add some incremental business value? 193 00:08:06,172 --> 00:08:10,492 Uh, or whatever the appropriate term is in the, in the governmental world, right? 194 00:08:10,492 --> 00:08:14,872 The incremental value to the organization that would help 195 00:08:15,202 --> 00:08:18,802 minimize the pain of that, of that. 196 00:08:19,042 --> 00:08:22,882 Check that by that, that dates me, doesn't it? 197 00:08:23,062 --> 00:08:23,512 Yes. 198 00:08:23,512 --> 00:08:25,252 the fact that I use the term check. 199 00:08:26,092 --> 00:08:26,722 Um. 200 00:08:26,827 --> 00:08:28,747 Bitcoins that you have to use are the 201 00:08:29,082 --> 00:08:29,372 Yeah. 202 00:08:29,372 --> 00:08:30,682 The, yeah, the Bitcoins. 203 00:08:31,492 --> 00:08:35,062 Um, you know, I, I, I, again, I'll, I'll tell a story from the old days. 204 00:08:35,332 --> 00:08:41,362 So I remember back when the, the, the organization that 205 00:08:41,362 --> 00:08:42,682 I was, my very first job, 206 00:08:42,817 --> 00:08:43,117 before 207 00:08:43,162 --> 00:08:43,492 what. 208 00:08:43,837 --> 00:08:46,357 you have to use the phrase, what phrase do you have to use when 209 00:08:46,417 --> 00:08:46,707 Back. 210 00:08:46,712 --> 00:08:47,587 Back in the day. 211 00:08:47,737 --> 00:08:48,307 There you go. 212 00:08:48,307 --> 00:08:48,827 in the day. 213 00:08:49,582 --> 00:08:55,342 So back in the day, back in 1993 before my daughter was even born. 214 00:08:55,852 --> 00:08:57,832 Um, that. 215 00:08:58,822 --> 00:09:02,002 We ran out of ta, you know, the, the organization was growing in size. 216 00:09:02,002 --> 00:09:08,032 It just logarithmically really from the time I joined to the time I left, 217 00:09:08,782 --> 00:09:12,862 and which always means more backups and it means running out of tapes. 218 00:09:13,252 --> 00:09:14,902 Back then it meant running out of tapes. 219 00:09:15,472 --> 00:09:20,962 And, um, I remember going to my boss and basically saying, Hey, 220 00:09:20,962 --> 00:09:22,672 you know, we we're out of tapes. 221 00:09:22,672 --> 00:09:32,737 And, um, the, it was interesting because, um, I. Uh, purchases for over, like, 222 00:09:32,737 --> 00:09:37,477 over a certain, uh, number was like considered a capital purchase, even though 223 00:09:37,477 --> 00:09:39,187 this was really very much an expense. 224 00:09:39,187 --> 00:09:41,017 So it was a very big deal that I was asking for. 225 00:09:41,017 --> 00:09:46,717 Like I remember the number was like $16,000 in, in tapes 226 00:09:48,127 --> 00:09:50,407 and is a lot of tapes, right? 227 00:09:50,407 --> 00:09:54,367 But, but, but we needed a lot of tapes and I remember the boss, my boss, 228 00:09:54,367 --> 00:09:56,617 saying to me, Susan saying to me. 229 00:09:57,622 --> 00:09:58,972 Is there any other option 230 00:09:59,467 --> 00:09:59,827 Mm. 231 00:10:00,352 --> 00:10:02,182 than spending this $16,000? 232 00:10:02,182 --> 00:10:03,112 And I said, yes. 233 00:10:03,442 --> 00:10:04,252 She said, what is it? 234 00:10:04,252 --> 00:10:06,052 I can, I can stop backing up stuff. 235 00:10:08,107 --> 00:10:10,447 Or it should be like you should stop creating data. 236 00:10:11,347 --> 00:10:11,557 Yeah. 237 00:10:11,707 --> 00:10:14,047 Yeah, you could, you could stop making more stuff. 238 00:10:14,857 --> 00:10:22,537 Um, so, uh, yeah, it, so backups have always been this, like money sink. 239 00:10:22,567 --> 00:10:24,187 The, I'm sorry, why do I keep saying Money sink. 240 00:10:24,187 --> 00:10:24,847 Money pit. 241 00:10:25,397 --> 00:10:32,657 I will also say that there have been some changes in backup design 242 00:10:32,747 --> 00:10:38,417 that are going to facilitate some of the things that we talk about when 243 00:10:38,417 --> 00:10:42,557 we talk about, uh, bringing some business value out of the backup data. 244 00:10:42,947 --> 00:10:45,437 The biggest of which is moving off of tape. 245 00:10:45,932 --> 00:10:51,032 As the, as the primary backup mechanism because when, when backups were on 246 00:10:51,032 --> 00:10:54,212 tape and, and you know, backups are still on tape, there's still many, 247 00:10:54,632 --> 00:10:55,862 quite a bit of backups on tape. 248 00:10:56,702 --> 00:11:01,322 Um, but when it was the primary and, and only place that you stored backup 249 00:11:01,322 --> 00:11:06,542 data, getting any additional value out of that data was I, I mean, it, 250 00:11:06,542 --> 00:11:09,062 it's just literally something that we never even discussed because 251 00:11:09,062 --> 00:11:10,532 there, there was no way to do it. 252 00:11:10,772 --> 00:11:14,012 Well, and I think it's also, at the time, I don't think people 253 00:11:14,012 --> 00:11:16,652 thought about these other use cases 254 00:11:17,387 --> 00:11:17,687 Hmm. 255 00:11:17,702 --> 00:11:18,992 may not have existed back then. 256 00:11:19,922 --> 00:11:20,102 I 257 00:11:20,237 --> 00:11:20,717 Yeah. 258 00:11:20,882 --> 00:11:24,812 modern arch software architecture and designs have allowed 259 00:11:24,812 --> 00:11:26,762 for a lot more use cases 260 00:11:27,227 --> 00:11:27,677 Mm-hmm. 261 00:11:27,722 --> 00:11:28,922 they used to have in the past. 262 00:11:30,107 --> 00:11:32,867 Yeah, I, but I would also say, even though, like when we look at 263 00:11:32,867 --> 00:11:38,642 things like tests and dev, we had tests and dev, but I. The best you 264 00:11:38,642 --> 00:11:44,282 could do was use your backups to restore production into something, 265 00:11:44,607 --> 00:11:44,837 Yeah, 266 00:11:45,002 --> 00:11:49,742 and it was still so challenging that most people just didn't even think about it. 267 00:11:49,802 --> 00:11:50,012 Right. 268 00:11:50,012 --> 00:11:52,382 They, they just didn't even consider that as an option. 269 00:11:52,427 --> 00:11:52,847 Mm-hmm. 270 00:11:52,877 --> 00:11:55,577 but I think this is also where if we look at storage systems 271 00:11:55,577 --> 00:11:57,557 like NetApp at the time, right? 272 00:11:57,557 --> 00:12:00,317 With snapshots where it's like, hey, in clones, right? 273 00:12:00,317 --> 00:12:04,427 You can quickly take a clone of a volume, start using it for test and 274 00:12:04,427 --> 00:12:06,017 dev and other purposes like that. 275 00:12:06,437 --> 00:12:10,877 So I think that was like, oh yeah, we should be able to do more things with it. 276 00:12:10,877 --> 00:12:13,067 And actually, maybe we should just jump into like some of 277 00:12:13,067 --> 00:12:14,447 these use cases since we're 278 00:12:14,537 --> 00:12:14,837 Well, 279 00:12:14,987 --> 00:12:15,287 to it. 280 00:12:15,647 --> 00:12:19,727 well actually, before, before we do that, uh, I, I think that it's 281 00:12:19,727 --> 00:12:23,327 really important that you, you made an important point there, and that 282 00:12:23,327 --> 00:12:27,077 is that when I said that there have been some changes in backup design. 283 00:12:27,677 --> 00:12:27,977 There have been. 284 00:12:28,742 --> 00:12:31,022 Sort of two really big changes. 285 00:12:31,022 --> 00:12:33,512 One is just the use of disc in general 286 00:12:33,677 --> 00:12:34,127 Mm-hmm. 287 00:12:34,142 --> 00:12:37,712 in various forms, which includes just file system disc. 288 00:12:37,712 --> 00:12:42,932 It includes object based storage, it includes filer based type 289 00:12:43,352 --> 00:12:46,502 storage and, and ddu ddu storage. 290 00:12:46,562 --> 00:12:51,122 All of that as as, it just, it's just much more flexible, even if we did 291 00:12:51,122 --> 00:12:56,612 nothing else, that provides a lot of flexibility, but I do think that. 292 00:12:57,392 --> 00:13:02,642 When I look back on things, I think NetApp gets a lot of credit here as 293 00:13:02,972 --> 00:13:06,002 being a pioneer of not changing just. 294 00:13:07,082 --> 00:13:12,152 That we're gonna use disc for backups, but also how we're gonna make those backups. 295 00:13:12,272 --> 00:13:17,612 And for a really long time there was this, um, and, and I'll still stand by 296 00:13:17,612 --> 00:13:21,512 the, the phrase if we, if we, if we, if we leave it just alone, and that 297 00:13:21,512 --> 00:13:23,162 is that a snapshot isn't a backup. 298 00:13:23,582 --> 00:13:23,912 Right. 299 00:13:23,972 --> 00:13:27,512 If we go back 20 years, NetApp's at least 20 years old, right? 300 00:13:27,827 --> 00:13:29,237 More than 20 years, I think 301 00:13:29,282 --> 00:13:29,582 Yeah. 302 00:13:29,612 --> 00:13:29,912 Okay. 303 00:13:30,362 --> 00:13:34,892 So back when, back of NetApp was just NetApp and pre-snap mirror. 304 00:13:36,017 --> 00:13:37,577 There was a time when there was no snap mirror. 305 00:13:37,577 --> 00:13:37,907 Right. 306 00:13:38,087 --> 00:13:38,417 Okay. 307 00:13:39,227 --> 00:13:44,777 Um, so when it was just a box and it had, um, just snapshots, I 308 00:13:44,777 --> 00:13:48,497 would've been alongside everyone else saying A snapshot is not a backup. 309 00:13:48,557 --> 00:13:48,917 Right. 310 00:13:49,547 --> 00:13:50,957 Um, unfortunately. 311 00:13:51,557 --> 00:13:54,167 Well, because it's relying on the primary. 312 00:13:54,242 --> 00:13:58,472 A, a, a traditional snapshot at that time. 313 00:13:58,562 --> 00:14:01,742 Well, even a snapshot at this time relies on the primary. 314 00:14:01,742 --> 00:14:06,452 It's literally, I used to make the phrase, a snapshot is as good of a 315 00:14:06,452 --> 00:14:12,002 backup of your data as a snapshot of your house is when your house catches fire. 316 00:14:13,052 --> 00:14:14,492 Right, right. 317 00:14:14,677 --> 00:14:17,942 It relies on the primary in order to, to, to function. 318 00:14:18,392 --> 00:14:23,702 But then once NetApp and other companies, uh, followed their, uh, example. 319 00:14:24,207 --> 00:14:27,207 They started replicating these snapshots to other locations 320 00:14:27,207 --> 00:14:29,487 and now we have both versioning. 321 00:14:29,547 --> 00:14:33,627 The, what, that's what snapshots brought was versioning and also replication. 322 00:14:33,627 --> 00:14:37,017 So we have another copy of the data in another location. 323 00:14:37,617 --> 00:14:44,037 Um, but once they did that, because now we're storing backups in a 324 00:14:44,037 --> 00:14:47,427 way that is immediately useful. 325 00:14:48,092 --> 00:14:51,932 You don't have to restore, as I make quotes in the air, you 326 00:14:51,932 --> 00:14:54,152 don't have to restore it per se. 327 00:14:54,152 --> 00:14:56,252 You just need to make it available. 328 00:14:56,392 --> 00:14:56,682 Yeah. 329 00:14:56,702 --> 00:15:01,802 And then if we look at modern, um, systems 330 00:15:02,172 --> 00:15:07,962 There are also backup vendors that have kind of led discharge as well, 331 00:15:08,232 --> 00:15:09,397 where they're storing backups. 332 00:15:10,842 --> 00:15:14,442 So traditionally, most backup vendors have stored their backups 333 00:15:14,442 --> 00:15:16,572 in some sort of encapsulated format. 334 00:15:16,632 --> 00:15:20,412 Tar, for example, with NetBackup, networker had 335 00:15:20,412 --> 00:15:21,942 their, what did they call that? 336 00:15:21,942 --> 00:15:23,622 Their open tape format? 337 00:15:23,712 --> 00:15:24,462 Is that what they call it? 338 00:15:24,762 --> 00:15:25,632 I don't remember. 339 00:15:25,632 --> 00:15:26,322 It's been too 340 00:15:26,442 --> 00:15:27,642 Well, anyway, yeah. 341 00:15:28,482 --> 00:15:29,442 So they had their form. 342 00:15:29,592 --> 00:15:31,902 Every backup vendor had their format, right? 343 00:15:32,022 --> 00:15:32,262 great 344 00:15:32,262 --> 00:15:32,892 Um, 345 00:15:33,072 --> 00:15:34,152 and lock-in, but 346 00:15:34,872 --> 00:15:35,172 yeah. 347 00:15:35,172 --> 00:15:35,232 Yeah. 348 00:15:35,352 --> 00:15:36,522 also, but 349 00:15:36,612 --> 00:15:37,032 Yeah. 350 00:15:37,242 --> 00:15:39,702 allows them to optimize what 351 00:15:39,822 --> 00:15:40,602 Yeah, yeah, 352 00:15:40,608 --> 00:15:40,727 done. 353 00:15:40,872 --> 00:15:41,202 yeah. 354 00:15:41,302 --> 00:15:43,462 So traditionally that's what they did. 355 00:15:44,582 --> 00:15:48,572 When I look back on the first company that I remember really doing what 356 00:15:48,572 --> 00:15:50,462 I'm thinking about here is Veeam, 357 00:15:50,462 --> 00:15:50,882 Mm-hmm. 358 00:15:50,972 --> 00:15:54,512 where they started storing their backups in a, in a native format. 359 00:15:54,782 --> 00:15:55,022 Yeah. 360 00:15:55,052 --> 00:15:59,462 So that, um, and, and originally I remember like when they were 361 00:15:59,462 --> 00:16:01,082 kind of early, I remember. 362 00:16:02,057 --> 00:16:07,307 Me not liking the fact that, that you couldn't search their backups, 363 00:16:07,362 --> 00:16:07,652 Yeah. 364 00:16:07,847 --> 00:16:08,957 They're like, you don't need to search it. 365 00:16:08,957 --> 00:16:13,727 You just, you just mount, you just mount the VM from two days ago 366 00:16:13,727 --> 00:16:15,227 and just go get whatever you want. 367 00:16:15,227 --> 00:16:17,237 And at the time, I remember going, uh, I don't like that. 368 00:16:17,297 --> 00:16:17,507 Right? 369 00:16:17,507 --> 00:16:23,807 I, I wanna search my, you know, um, but this, this really, uh, it 370 00:16:23,807 --> 00:16:27,857 was a new way of storing backups so that you could instantly. 371 00:16:28,322 --> 00:16:30,362 Um, access that data. 372 00:16:30,362 --> 00:16:34,562 And that led to this idea of things like instant restores, 373 00:16:34,732 --> 00:16:35,152 Mm-hmm. 374 00:16:35,492 --> 00:16:37,622 Uh, you wanna describe what an instant restore is, 375 00:16:37,877 --> 00:16:38,237 Yeah. 376 00:16:38,237 --> 00:16:41,807 An instant restore is before we get to Instant Restore. 377 00:16:41,807 --> 00:16:47,057 So your typical restore is you have to first sort of copy the data out of the 378 00:16:47,057 --> 00:16:50,447 system, right, to wherever it needs to go to the target system, and then 379 00:16:50,447 --> 00:16:52,187 you could start the recovery process 380 00:16:52,617 --> 00:16:52,967 right? 381 00:16:53,057 --> 00:16:53,537 to be what? 382 00:16:53,937 --> 00:16:54,287 Right. 383 00:16:54,977 --> 00:16:57,377 Restore is, you don't need to do that copy. 384 00:16:57,377 --> 00:17:03,947 You can instantly access the data from that backup system and start using it. 385 00:17:03,947 --> 00:17:07,667 And then you could do things like, okay, if it's a virtual machine, I can 386 00:17:07,667 --> 00:17:11,717 mount it and start running it off the backup storage system and then I can 387 00:17:11,717 --> 00:17:16,187 move it or migrate it using storage vMotion or other technologies to the 388 00:17:16,187 --> 00:17:18,197 production location without any downtime. 389 00:17:18,797 --> 00:17:19,397 So it allows 390 00:17:19,457 --> 00:17:19,967 Yeah. 391 00:17:19,967 --> 00:17:22,337 reduce the RTO. 392 00:17:23,807 --> 00:17:24,287 Yeah. 393 00:17:24,287 --> 00:17:24,317 I. 394 00:17:24,392 --> 00:17:26,072 to be able to start accessing your data. 395 00:17:27,092 --> 00:17:28,982 Definitely reduces the RTO right? 396 00:17:29,012 --> 00:17:32,552 Well, technically reduces the RTA, the recovery time. 397 00:17:32,552 --> 00:17:33,632 Actual, yeah. 398 00:17:33,632 --> 00:17:36,452 So it allows you to meet, I'm such a pedantic 399 00:17:36,452 --> 00:17:36,662 I 400 00:17:36,842 --> 00:17:37,712 jerk sometimes. 401 00:17:38,192 --> 00:17:41,342 Uh, 'cause the RTO shouldn't change right? 402 00:17:41,372 --> 00:17:44,822 Un unless we're like, Hey, we can, we can have a tighter RTO now. 403 00:17:44,822 --> 00:17:45,092 Right? 404 00:17:45,092 --> 00:17:47,522 So the, the objective could be made tighter. 405 00:17:48,122 --> 00:17:52,772 Um, but the um, uh, and this. 406 00:17:53,177 --> 00:17:56,897 I think that's the first one that I re really remember doing it like that. 407 00:17:57,287 --> 00:17:59,327 There are other ways to do it. 408 00:17:59,417 --> 00:18:03,347 Uh, there are other ways where if you don't put everything 409 00:18:03,347 --> 00:18:06,167 inside encapsulated blobs, right? 410 00:18:06,167 --> 00:18:10,582 Like tar, if you're storing everything as lots of little pieces, I. If you're 411 00:18:10,582 --> 00:18:14,752 able to then put all those pieces together and just present them all 412 00:18:14,752 --> 00:18:19,342 at the same time as an image, that's another way to do instant restore. 413 00:18:19,672 --> 00:18:23,452 But the point is this, the, these newer ways of storing backups 414 00:18:23,902 --> 00:18:32,032 have allowed this, this ability to access data in a random fashion 415 00:18:32,267 --> 00:18:32,657 Mm-hmm. 416 00:18:33,622 --> 00:18:36,472 without the massive. 417 00:18:36,992 --> 00:18:39,422 Need to do a big restore right. 418 00:18:39,422 --> 00:18:40,412 Before you can do anything 419 00:18:40,757 --> 00:18:41,027 Yeah. 420 00:18:41,147 --> 00:18:43,457 And I know that we're talking about sort of. 421 00:18:43,772 --> 00:18:47,102 Instant restores, but I look at that as a technology. 422 00:18:47,102 --> 00:18:48,932 And then there's the use cases on top of it, 423 00:18:49,202 --> 00:18:49,232 e 424 00:18:49,472 --> 00:18:49,832 right? 425 00:18:50,132 --> 00:18:50,462 right. 426 00:18:50,672 --> 00:18:52,592 Instant Restore is one use case. 427 00:18:52,832 --> 00:18:57,872 The next one that also comes to mind is test and dev, which I think Veeam was one 428 00:18:57,872 --> 00:19:01,592 of the first to sort of solidify this and actually lead the market in this space. 429 00:19:01,952 --> 00:19:02,402 Yeah. 430 00:19:02,492 --> 00:19:06,062 you have a backup, you want to verify, did things work right? 431 00:19:06,287 --> 00:19:11,537 Right, and the problem is that you would need to create your own 432 00:19:11,537 --> 00:19:15,527 sort of test environment, spin it up, right, configure it, copy the 433 00:19:15,527 --> 00:19:17,057 data out, potentially all the rest. 434 00:19:17,687 --> 00:19:21,947 And V made it very easy where you can almost create an isolated test 435 00:19:21,947 --> 00:19:24,857 environment in VMware automatically. 436 00:19:25,632 --> 00:19:25,852 Yep. 437 00:19:26,372 --> 00:19:31,202 Restore your VM or spin up your VM there with new IP addresses so there's 438 00:19:31,202 --> 00:19:35,192 no conflicts, everything else, access it, do whatever testing you need, and 439 00:19:35,192 --> 00:19:36,782 then sort of tear down the system. 440 00:19:38,357 --> 00:19:43,307 Yeah, and, and you can actually create, um, they, they call, 441 00:19:43,517 --> 00:19:46,787 this is called Sure Backup and, and Veeam, and you could create. 442 00:19:47,327 --> 00:19:53,567 Um, basically a, a recovery group and it will do all of this together, right? 443 00:19:53,597 --> 00:19:56,237 And so you can test an entire environment together. 444 00:19:56,747 --> 00:20:02,742 And that what that, that, what that's doing is it's, it's just adding a. 445 00:20:02,742 --> 00:20:05,222 At least initially what we're talking about is just testing 446 00:20:05,222 --> 00:20:06,332 the backup to make sure it works. 447 00:20:06,332 --> 00:20:08,432 So what you're doing is you're increasing confidence 448 00:20:08,632 --> 00:20:08,852 Yep. 449 00:20:08,912 --> 00:20:12,302 in your, that your backup system can do what it needs to do, 450 00:20:12,302 --> 00:20:13,802 when it needs to do it right? 451 00:20:14,342 --> 00:20:22,412 But what that also does is when you have the ability to access data, um. 452 00:20:23,417 --> 00:20:29,087 Like live like that, whether we're talking via the, like the, the snapshot way, the 453 00:20:29,087 --> 00:20:34,067 the live backup way or the live restore way, or sorry, or instant recovery way, 454 00:20:34,247 --> 00:20:41,297 and any method that allows you to directly mount the backup, um, read, write. 455 00:20:42,062 --> 00:20:46,142 Now you, you need to do that in a way, by the way, that doesn't 456 00:20:46,142 --> 00:20:48,482 impact the backup, right? 457 00:20:48,512 --> 00:20:52,502 You, you need to create like a view, uh, to use a database term. 458 00:20:52,922 --> 00:20:55,982 You need to create a view into that backup that allows you to 'cause, 459 00:20:56,102 --> 00:20:59,402 in order to mount it and actually turn it on as a vm, you're, you're 460 00:20:59,402 --> 00:21:00,632 gonna need to do read, write, 461 00:21:00,887 --> 00:21:01,107 Yep. 462 00:21:01,202 --> 00:21:05,522 uh, so you need to do that in a way that doesn't impact the original backup, right? 463 00:21:05,697 --> 00:21:05,917 Yep. 464 00:21:06,327 --> 00:21:11,487 Um, any of those methods that allow, that allow, I think these other 465 00:21:11,847 --> 00:21:14,307 use cases that we're talking about, and the first one that you talked 466 00:21:14,307 --> 00:21:16,707 about was, was test and dev, right? 467 00:21:16,707 --> 00:21:22,907 So we've got, we are, um, a. You know, any type of shop that's doing 468 00:21:22,937 --> 00:21:26,147 an agile development net, even if they're not using Agile development. 469 00:21:26,147 --> 00:21:30,377 But it, I think, you know, many people are using Agile, right? 470 00:21:31,517 --> 00:21:37,367 Um, is that you can use this to easily spin up whatever you want, 471 00:21:38,027 --> 00:21:44,747 um, to be able to, um, to, to either develop against an act, you know, 472 00:21:44,747 --> 00:21:46,727 essentially an active copy of the data. 473 00:21:47,087 --> 00:21:48,497 So there, there's a process. 474 00:21:48,497 --> 00:21:51,467 When you do this, there's a process that you can go through. 475 00:21:52,247 --> 00:21:54,017 I, I've seen different terms for it. 476 00:21:54,017 --> 00:21:58,307 Data de-identification, data anonymization, data sanitization. 477 00:21:58,607 --> 00:22:00,527 Basically the, the only problem with taking. 478 00:22:00,987 --> 00:22:03,717 A copy of production data and then doing development with it is you've 479 00:22:03,717 --> 00:22:05,127 got production data and development. 480 00:22:05,277 --> 00:22:05,547 Right? 481 00:22:06,087 --> 00:22:09,837 And there's potential, there's PII there, what, it's a very American term, but 482 00:22:09,987 --> 00:22:16,167 personal identification there that, um, that could, would, could be a problem if 483 00:22:16,167 --> 00:22:17,367 you're using it in development, right? 484 00:22:17,367 --> 00:22:21,807 So you could, again, you could automate this process of taking a production 485 00:22:21,807 --> 00:22:25,977 copy and then anonymizing that data so that you can, you're using. 486 00:22:26,552 --> 00:22:29,552 Production like data in your development. 487 00:22:29,762 --> 00:22:33,872 And then also once you've done your development, you can test it against that. 488 00:22:33,872 --> 00:22:38,342 In fact, you could actually, once it's true test, you could test it against 489 00:22:38,342 --> 00:22:43,292 actual, you know, non anonymized data, uh, as long as you kept it 490 00:22:43,292 --> 00:22:44,642 in, in an appropriate environment. 491 00:22:45,032 --> 00:22:45,242 Yeah. 492 00:22:45,242 --> 00:22:48,782 And a lot of the companies that were. 493 00:22:49,862 --> 00:22:53,432 in this space, they also refer to it as copy data management. 494 00:22:53,432 --> 00:22:53,972 So one of 495 00:22:54,002 --> 00:22:54,362 Yeah. 496 00:22:54,602 --> 00:22:58,682 that, uh, is very popular at the time was Actifio, 497 00:22:59,057 --> 00:22:59,347 Yeah. 498 00:22:59,912 --> 00:23:01,442 being able to spin off copies. 499 00:23:01,442 --> 00:23:03,572 I think they were acquired by IBMI believe. 500 00:23:03,932 --> 00:23:05,312 So things like that. 501 00:23:05,312 --> 00:23:08,342 Where it is, you have all these copies, it's how do you manage 'em, how do 502 00:23:08,342 --> 00:23:09,782 you make it simple to spin 'em up? 503 00:23:10,052 --> 00:23:13,472 How do you also have the governance in place so people aren't 504 00:23:13,472 --> 00:23:14,792 doing bad things with the data? 505 00:23:16,157 --> 00:23:16,447 Yeah. 506 00:23:16,547 --> 00:23:20,732 And, and so I think, yeah, and, and, and CDM copy data management, you know, 507 00:23:21,002 --> 00:23:26,732 that was, I. I am saying was it's, I don't hear that too much anymore. 508 00:23:26,882 --> 00:23:31,142 Um, you know, you heard it a lot when Actifio was a big brand, right? 509 00:23:31,172 --> 00:23:34,412 Um, I think the concept is strong. 510 00:23:34,412 --> 00:23:36,992 I think the, the challenge that most people had with it is, I. 511 00:23:38,402 --> 00:23:41,222 They want, they wanted to boil the ocean with that, right? 512 00:23:41,342 --> 00:23:44,012 They wanted to do all the copies, they wanted to have the backup 513 00:23:44,012 --> 00:23:48,122 copies plus the, you know, you know, plus all yeah, everything, right? 514 00:23:48,122 --> 00:23:52,292 And so I, I sort of like C-D-P-C-D P's an amazing concept until 515 00:23:52,292 --> 00:23:53,582 you try to pay for it, right? 516 00:23:54,122 --> 00:23:56,717 Um, and so you don't wanna do everything with CDP, you wanna just 517 00:23:56,717 --> 00:23:58,892 do what you really need it for. 518 00:23:59,582 --> 00:24:01,412 Um, the. 519 00:24:02,312 --> 00:24:06,272 Uh, I think what you're seeing with a lot of these products that we're 520 00:24:06,272 --> 00:24:10,472 starting to see is that you're starting to see people doing CDM, like. 521 00:24:10,677 --> 00:24:10,967 Yeah. 522 00:24:12,227 --> 00:24:14,507 Uh, use cases with backups. 523 00:24:14,507 --> 00:24:18,797 And again, this is because so many of these products are storing backups in 524 00:24:18,797 --> 00:24:23,477 a way that allow them to very easily, uh, either the way Veeam does it, or 525 00:24:23,477 --> 00:24:27,767 I know, you know, you know, our former employer, Druva, the way they stored 526 00:24:27,797 --> 00:24:33,017 the data, they could easily do like this, like, um, sort of virtual, like 527 00:24:33,017 --> 00:24:37,637 a view representation of the, of the data, uh, you know, very quickly because 528 00:24:37,637 --> 00:24:38,717 they're in the cloud and they can, 529 00:24:38,717 --> 00:24:39,137 Mm-hmm. 530 00:24:39,377 --> 00:24:39,647 you know. 531 00:24:40,082 --> 00:24:41,042 Cloud is magic. 532 00:24:42,932 --> 00:24:46,892 Um, so yeah, so that test and dev is, is a good example of 'em. 533 00:24:47,012 --> 00:24:51,312 . So the next one we have is let's talk about security, uh, and 534 00:24:51,312 --> 00:24:53,442 compliance applications here. 535 00:24:53,832 --> 00:24:56,742 So what do you, what do you think are security applications with things 536 00:24:56,742 --> 00:25:00,403 that we could do with backups that we couldn't do, I don't know, 10 years ago? 537 00:25:01,647 --> 00:25:06,477 There's a, so the thing about backups is, is basically has all the data 538 00:25:06,477 --> 00:25:07,917 from everywhere in the organization, 539 00:25:08,147 --> 00:25:08,567 Mm-hmm. 540 00:25:09,027 --> 00:25:09,327 right? 541 00:25:09,327 --> 00:25:11,397 You could start to look for patterns. 542 00:25:11,397 --> 00:25:14,847 You could look at accesses, who's accessing what data, 543 00:25:14,847 --> 00:25:16,317 where copies are going. 544 00:25:16,797 --> 00:25:21,567 Um, there's also things you could do, for instance, if you get hit by ransomware. 545 00:25:21,867 --> 00:25:22,347 Okay? 546 00:25:22,347 --> 00:25:25,257 I now understand the signature of the ransomware. 547 00:25:25,557 --> 00:25:27,627 Where does that live in my environment? 548 00:25:28,107 --> 00:25:32,067 So you now have a centralized location of all your data that you could 549 00:25:32,067 --> 00:25:37,137 start searching for, to be able to identify some of these security issues? 550 00:25:38,022 --> 00:25:45,912 You can do like, um, basically sim, sim sort type, uh, you know, 551 00:25:45,972 --> 00:25:49,542 or, or XDR, basically all of these techniques, you could do them with a 552 00:25:49,542 --> 00:25:51,762 sync, a centralized copy of the data. 553 00:25:52,137 --> 00:25:52,437 Yeah. 554 00:25:52,992 --> 00:25:59,082 and I, I do, I still, I still go back to I agree with what, what 555 00:25:59,082 --> 00:26:03,942 I used to hear a lot at Druva, which was, um, if we're the reason. 556 00:26:04,392 --> 00:26:06,402 That you know, that you have a ransomware attack. 557 00:26:06,432 --> 00:26:07,302 This is a problem, 558 00:26:07,767 --> 00:26:08,067 Yeah. 559 00:26:08,232 --> 00:26:08,682 right? 560 00:26:08,952 --> 00:26:13,452 Like, but it's still better to know than not, than to not know. 561 00:26:13,482 --> 00:26:13,902 Right? 562 00:26:14,322 --> 00:26:15,732 Um, yeah. 563 00:26:15,792 --> 00:26:18,252 Hopefully you've got a, a, a number of different thing. 564 00:26:18,252 --> 00:26:20,382 But this, this is the idea of defense in depth. 565 00:26:20,532 --> 00:26:24,492 And you're right, it is a centralized place from which you can see a lot of 566 00:26:24,492 --> 00:26:28,362 things that you can perhaps from that vantage point, see patterns that you. 567 00:26:28,532 --> 00:26:31,232 Might not see, uh, otherwise. 568 00:26:31,682 --> 00:26:36,212 And I, I, I gotta bring up, I gotta bring up an old story again from Bang Monday. 569 00:26:37,232 --> 00:26:39,932 And, um, the, um, 570 00:26:43,112 --> 00:26:47,192 um, we were implementing. 571 00:26:47,862 --> 00:26:52,062 This is again, in my very first job in backups and we were going 572 00:26:52,062 --> 00:26:58,182 to be implementing what we now think of as like HSM or something. 573 00:26:58,182 --> 00:27:03,222 It wasn't HSM, it was just it, it was, it was like bad HSM, where basically we said 574 00:27:03,522 --> 00:27:06,762 if you've had a file on your file system and you haven't, you haven't touched it 575 00:27:06,762 --> 00:27:09,432 for 18 months, we're gonna delete it. 576 00:27:09,612 --> 00:27:11,502 We got it on 57 backup tapes. 577 00:27:11,682 --> 00:27:14,142 We keep our backup tapes for seven years. 578 00:27:14,757 --> 00:27:16,857 If you really need to file, we can get, we can get it back 579 00:27:16,857 --> 00:27:18,897 for you, but we need space. 580 00:27:18,897 --> 00:27:20,337 And so we're gonna start deleting your crap. 581 00:27:21,777 --> 00:27:26,067 And as the, as the, uh, it's a bit like, uh, you know, like with real id, with 582 00:27:26,067 --> 00:27:30,987 the, with the, um, how that they kept delaying the implementation of real id. 583 00:27:31,317 --> 00:27:32,037 It was the same thing. 584 00:27:32,037 --> 00:27:34,917 We're like, as the date approached it, you know, people started getting, 585 00:27:35,157 --> 00:27:37,767 and we started getting down to that date of like, okay, this is it. 586 00:27:37,797 --> 00:27:38,427 This is the date. 587 00:27:39,177 --> 00:27:39,777 And then one day. 588 00:27:40,542 --> 00:27:44,862 Um, and, and mind you, it just, again, I just gotta just give you 589 00:27:44,862 --> 00:27:48,882 like, like a, what do you call it, A frame of reference here. 590 00:27:49,707 --> 00:27:52,077 Our biggest server was seven gigabytes. 591 00:27:55,092 --> 00:27:55,842 Oh boy. 592 00:27:56,817 --> 00:28:00,837 And what was happening was, and the, and the, the way we did the backups, we do 593 00:28:00,837 --> 00:28:02,727 one full back, one weekly, full backup. 594 00:28:03,297 --> 00:28:07,737 And we would, we didn't have enough tapes to do all the full backups in one day. 595 00:28:07,887 --> 00:28:08,937 I'm sorry, tape drives to 596 00:28:09,057 --> 00:28:09,257 Mm-hmm. 597 00:28:09,327 --> 00:28:10,407 all the full backups in one day. 598 00:28:10,407 --> 00:28:13,527 We would rotate those full backups across, across the week. 599 00:28:14,337 --> 00:28:15,902 And, um, because again. 600 00:28:16,562 --> 00:28:18,212 Backups have always been too expensive. 601 00:28:18,212 --> 00:28:19,892 This is kind of what the point is, right? 602 00:28:20,762 --> 00:28:29,912 And so, but one day, one of the servers, Zeus, I remember, um, it's incremental 603 00:28:29,912 --> 00:28:31,592 backups were shooting through the roof. 604 00:28:31,952 --> 00:28:33,842 They were taking forever, every single day. 605 00:28:33,992 --> 00:28:36,932 Their backups were, were, shoot, you know, taking, they 606 00:28:36,932 --> 00:28:37,832 weren't, they weren't finishing. 607 00:28:38,397 --> 00:28:38,487 Hmm. 608 00:28:38,702 --> 00:28:39,932 And we started looking. 609 00:28:39,962 --> 00:28:49,662 And what we saw was that e every I. File in every home directory 610 00:28:50,022 --> 00:28:53,862 was being changed every single day. 611 00:28:56,082 --> 00:28:58,847 Does someone just have like a touch command or something to just. 612 00:28:59,007 --> 00:29:03,627 Yeah, so what happened was somebody called in to the help desk and 613 00:29:03,627 --> 00:29:06,957 they're like, how can we make sure that our stuff doesn't get deleted? 614 00:29:07,557 --> 00:29:11,667 And they said, well put this command in your DOT profile. 615 00:29:12,297 --> 00:29:12,747 Right? 616 00:29:12,867 --> 00:29:15,927 Which for those that don't know, Unix was a thing that got 617 00:29:15,927 --> 00:29:17,337 ran every time you logged in. 618 00:29:17,392 --> 00:29:21,537 And it basically, it wasn't just a touch star, it was like a fine dot 619 00:29:22,197 --> 00:29:25,092 pipe to, you know, so basically. 620 00:29:25,827 --> 00:29:30,687 Touch, change the modification time on every single file in your, uh, 621 00:29:30,687 --> 00:29:34,197 home directory every single time you logged in, which basically 622 00:29:34,197 --> 00:29:35,967 meant every night became a full. 623 00:29:36,267 --> 00:29:36,537 Yeah. 624 00:29:36,927 --> 00:29:41,367 um, uh, we, we put a stop to that really quick and, and, you know, 625 00:29:41,367 --> 00:29:45,237 we all referred to it as it was, it was the finance department, and 626 00:29:45,237 --> 00:29:48,417 we said we, we caught the finance department, uh, touching themselves. 627 00:29:49,467 --> 00:29:49,797 Um. 628 00:29:52,212 --> 00:29:53,322 Oh, card ass. 629 00:29:54,222 --> 00:29:57,912 Anyway, so, uh, where were we? 630 00:29:57,912 --> 00:29:58,962 What, what were we talking about? 631 00:29:58,962 --> 00:29:59,382 Something? 632 00:29:59,892 --> 00:30:00,822 and compliance. 633 00:30:00,972 --> 00:30:01,332 Yeah. 634 00:30:01,332 --> 00:30:01,572 Yeah. 635 00:30:01,572 --> 00:30:05,202 So there there is, there is a lot of centralized stuff. 636 00:30:05,322 --> 00:30:06,492 You can look for things. 637 00:30:06,492 --> 00:30:08,382 So we talked about the security ramifications. 638 00:30:08,382 --> 00:30:11,712 We, we can look for things that are not compliant. 639 00:30:11,712 --> 00:30:14,112 We can look for file types that are not compliant. 640 00:30:14,442 --> 00:30:17,382 We are not a multimedia making company. 641 00:30:17,382 --> 00:30:19,122 There shouldn't be video files. 642 00:30:19,692 --> 00:30:21,762 Um, I can think all the way back. 643 00:30:22,572 --> 00:30:29,652 To, um, my very first job, like after, this is my very first consulting job, so 644 00:30:29,652 --> 00:30:34,122 it was my first job after that job and we. 645 00:30:34,827 --> 00:30:38,367 Without going into details, we found the most inappropriate videos that you 646 00:30:38,367 --> 00:30:44,157 could possibly find, uh, being stored on servers in our, uh, corporate data center. 647 00:30:44,292 --> 00:30:44,502 Mm. 648 00:30:44,847 --> 00:30:49,077 And you can look for videos, you can look for types of files. 649 00:30:49,137 --> 00:30:55,047 Um, I remember, I do remember one, um, uh, uh, a restore that I got. 650 00:30:55,602 --> 00:30:56,202 Resume. 651 00:30:56,202 --> 00:30:57,702 I told you the Zum doc. 652 00:30:57,702 --> 00:30:58,572 Yeah, yeah. 653 00:30:58,572 --> 00:31:01,722 We, somebody says, Hey, I, I wanna do the Zum doc. 654 00:31:01,962 --> 00:31:04,722 You can look for file names, you can look for file types and you can 655 00:31:04,722 --> 00:31:07,032 look, you can use hashes, right? 656 00:31:07,062 --> 00:31:10,482 You can look for, there are ways for data to be hidden, right? 657 00:31:10,482 --> 00:31:13,002 You can, there are, there are, um. 658 00:31:13,842 --> 00:31:19,122 There are mechanisms you can use to reveal what the real type of a file is, 659 00:31:19,122 --> 00:31:22,752 even if the, the, the, you know, the extension or whatever doesn't say that. 660 00:31:22,962 --> 00:31:24,102 And so you can do that. 661 00:31:24,252 --> 00:31:26,322 You can also look for things like. 662 00:31:27,507 --> 00:31:32,307 You can use regular expressions to look for things like a, again, I, 663 00:31:32,307 --> 00:31:36,177 I can really only speak to the US Social security numbers should not be 664 00:31:36,357 --> 00:31:41,487 in plain text in a spreadsheet, uh, you know, in a, in a document, right. 665 00:31:41,907 --> 00:31:43,437 Um, other personal identifi. 666 00:31:43,467 --> 00:31:46,017 So you can, you could do, uh, compliance. 667 00:31:46,287 --> 00:31:50,547 Um, now of course you're gonna end up giving yourself more work, but you could 668 00:31:50,547 --> 00:31:53,637 potentially save your company millions of dollars in the, in the long run. 669 00:31:54,027 --> 00:31:54,387 yeah, 670 00:31:55,077 --> 00:31:55,407 Yeah. 671 00:31:55,752 --> 00:31:59,562 Uh, and then finally we have, uh, analytics and business intelligence. 672 00:31:59,562 --> 00:32:04,992 And this is something that I think this has been somewhat of a pie 673 00:32:04,992 --> 00:32:06,852 in the sky idea for a long time. 674 00:32:06,852 --> 00:32:07,362 What do you think? 675 00:32:08,847 --> 00:32:12,447 I would say at least decade. 676 00:32:13,332 --> 00:32:15,132 At least a decade we've talked about it 677 00:32:15,567 --> 00:32:15,897 Yep. 678 00:32:15,942 --> 00:32:19,602 and, um, the idea that we're storing all this data. 679 00:32:20,667 --> 00:32:22,677 It's randomly accessible. 680 00:32:23,097 --> 00:32:29,127 Isn't there some way that we could look at this data and we can do 681 00:32:29,127 --> 00:32:30,987 something, do something with it? 682 00:32:31,167 --> 00:32:36,027 Again, you've got this centralized view from which we can view the organization, 683 00:32:36,027 --> 00:32:41,187 not just like it's like three dimensional, but it's it's time as well as is now. 684 00:32:41,187 --> 00:32:41,547 Right. 685 00:32:41,547 --> 00:32:41,837 Yeah. 686 00:32:42,597 --> 00:32:47,667 And I do think, and I think that, that that idea reached a fever pitch. 687 00:32:48,312 --> 00:32:50,622 A couple of years ago with AI 688 00:32:50,937 --> 00:32:51,357 Mm-hmm. 689 00:32:51,792 --> 00:32:59,202 that we started seeing how, how long has, is Che GPT been a thing? 690 00:32:59,202 --> 00:33:03,102 Because that's really when like AI just filled everyone's brain. 691 00:33:03,672 --> 00:33:04,662 Has it been two years? 692 00:33:04,977 --> 00:33:06,357 18 months maybe. 693 00:33:06,522 --> 00:33:06,942 Yeah. 694 00:33:08,472 --> 00:33:09,132 So like. 695 00:33:10,092 --> 00:33:13,512 But even before that, 'cause I remember, 'cause I know I've been, 696 00:33:13,512 --> 00:33:18,922 I've gone from Druva for a couple of years now, and before I left Druva, 697 00:33:18,952 --> 00:33:21,532 Chatt really became a thing, right? 698 00:33:21,652 --> 00:33:25,192 And we like, oh man, we gotta figure out a way to, you know, connect these things. 699 00:33:25,192 --> 00:33:25,462 Right. 700 00:33:26,062 --> 00:33:30,082 And fast forward to last week, right? 701 00:33:30,082 --> 00:33:31,222 Well, two weeks ago now. 702 00:33:31,432 --> 00:33:31,702 Yeah. 703 00:33:31,762 --> 00:33:36,202 was at Veeam on, and you know, if, if you follow the show religiously and you 704 00:33:36,622 --> 00:33:41,332 listened to a couple episodes ago, you would've seen my, my talk on this already. 705 00:33:41,332 --> 00:33:49,372 But I got to see it like it, it was, it was just, it was really amazing where 706 00:33:49,372 --> 00:33:51,532 they, they had a Veeam environment. 707 00:33:51,532 --> 00:33:54,502 Now this was like, they made a point of saying. 708 00:33:56,137 --> 00:34:00,427 When they demoed, they did, they demoed like 20 over 20 things and 709 00:34:00,427 --> 00:34:04,717 they said some of the things you're gonna see are literally hours old. 710 00:34:05,407 --> 00:34:07,567 They're like, we're coding them right now. 711 00:34:07,567 --> 00:34:08,827 There's guys, you know, 712 00:34:08,977 --> 00:34:09,337 Yeah. 713 00:34:09,637 --> 00:34:11,857 thousand monkeys at the keyboard in the back, you know. 714 00:34:12,022 --> 00:34:12,832 a live demo, 715 00:34:13,462 --> 00:34:15,232 Nothing like a live demo and everything. 716 00:34:15,292 --> 00:34:19,222 And by the way, they, they, they did all this, uh, preface, uh, 717 00:34:19,222 --> 00:34:21,592 Anton Sev made all this things. 718 00:34:21,592 --> 00:34:22,642 It was like, I hope it works. 719 00:34:22,642 --> 00:34:26,242 I hope it, like it was like, uh, and, and everything worked flawlessly. 720 00:34:26,242 --> 00:34:27,172 It really, it really did. 721 00:34:27,532 --> 00:34:35,592 But what I saw was they, they had hooked up the, basically they are now announcing 722 00:34:35,592 --> 00:34:36,882 that they're going to be doing this. 723 00:34:36,972 --> 00:34:43,032 This connection between anthropic MCP and Veeam backups and. 724 00:34:44,787 --> 00:34:48,477 I am not an expert in this space, but what I saw, I, I do 725 00:34:48,507 --> 00:34:50,577 use Claude quite a bit, right? 726 00:34:50,577 --> 00:34:52,857 Which is the anthropic tool. 727 00:34:54,057 --> 00:34:57,417 What it looked like to me was they, they had two tabs. 728 00:34:57,687 --> 00:35:00,117 One was they had a bunch of backups. 729 00:35:00,117 --> 00:35:02,037 They, they just claimed that what they had was a bunch of 730 00:35:02,037 --> 00:35:03,417 backups that were about weather. 731 00:35:03,897 --> 00:35:04,107 Mm-hmm. 732 00:35:04,617 --> 00:35:07,377 So they have one tab that was search where they could just search, you 733 00:35:07,377 --> 00:35:10,437 know, what, what, what backups do you have that are about weather? 734 00:35:10,437 --> 00:35:12,297 And it came up with like a Google like search. 735 00:35:12,327 --> 00:35:12,417 That, 736 00:35:12,447 --> 00:35:12,777 Mm-hmm. 737 00:35:13,407 --> 00:35:18,597 that alone was cool, but then it was like, what can you tell me about the weather? 738 00:35:19,137 --> 00:35:23,637 It had a different tab where it just looked like Claude to me, and it was like, 739 00:35:23,667 --> 00:35:29,457 tell me what can you tell me about the weather based on the backups that we have? 740 00:35:29,512 --> 00:35:29,732 mm. 741 00:35:30,177 --> 00:35:35,127 And it was like, you know, and it basically wrote out a report and I 742 00:35:35,127 --> 00:35:37,812 was like, oh, that is really cool. 743 00:35:39,357 --> 00:35:39,867 Right. 744 00:35:40,137 --> 00:35:42,837 And, and you know, I've been in software long enough to know 745 00:35:42,837 --> 00:35:47,952 that, you know, I can all be total smoke and mirrors, but it was, but 746 00:35:48,177 --> 00:35:48,552 You're like, 747 00:35:48,627 --> 00:35:49,557 I watched it. 748 00:35:49,617 --> 00:35:50,007 Right. 749 00:35:50,007 --> 00:35:52,227 I, it was amazing. 750 00:35:52,227 --> 00:35:59,787 And I, and I, again, it goes back to that it's made possible by the fact 751 00:35:59,787 --> 00:36:02,007 that the backups are stored on disc 752 00:36:02,012 --> 00:36:02,432 Mm-hmm. 753 00:36:02,517 --> 00:36:05,427 stored in a, in a way that you can access them natively. 754 00:36:05,432 --> 00:36:05,652 Yep. 755 00:36:05,787 --> 00:36:09,972 And so I. It brings up lots of security and privacy questions. 756 00:36:10,272 --> 00:36:13,002 And, and I had a, a really good chat with them about that. 757 00:36:13,002 --> 00:36:15,822 And they, and they absolutely knew that they needed to come out with 758 00:36:15,822 --> 00:36:19,512 their AI statement before this ever touched any customer data. 759 00:36:19,752 --> 00:36:24,222 And he, he did verify to me that there wasn't any path between your 760 00:36:24,222 --> 00:36:27,282 data and anthropic and you know, that, that they're not gonna be 761 00:36:27,282 --> 00:36:29,052 using your data to train anything. 762 00:36:29,052 --> 00:36:31,302 It's, it's a private instance. 763 00:36:32,442 --> 00:36:35,172 Um, but that was just. 764 00:36:35,952 --> 00:36:41,427 You know, it's like the first time you ever, um, it's like the first time I, 765 00:36:41,432 --> 00:36:46,092 I, I don't know if you haven't at this point, gone and used AI in some fashion. 766 00:36:46,092 --> 00:36:49,242 If you haven't done some of the amazing things you could do in ai. 767 00:36:50,172 --> 00:36:50,262 Um. 768 00:36:52,287 --> 00:36:54,207 I, you gotta, you gotta go try it out. 769 00:36:54,207 --> 00:36:58,437 And it, that first time you do that, you're like, oh my goodness. 770 00:36:58,767 --> 00:36:59,187 Right. 771 00:36:59,442 --> 00:36:59,742 Yeah. 772 00:37:00,417 --> 00:37:04,917 and it, it's so good at like summarizing things that, that's like, to me that's 773 00:37:04,917 --> 00:37:08,607 like the best, like it's never gonna come up with anything new technically, 774 00:37:08,997 --> 00:37:12,447 because, but you could also argue there's nothing new under the sun. 775 00:37:12,867 --> 00:37:13,257 Right. 776 00:37:13,677 --> 00:37:14,217 Um, 777 00:37:14,412 --> 00:37:14,682 but it's 778 00:37:14,697 --> 00:37:15,357 and that's that. 779 00:37:15,612 --> 00:37:16,662 in different ways 780 00:37:16,782 --> 00:37:19,512 It is able to make connections in different ways, right. 781 00:37:19,512 --> 00:37:21,462 And, and, and suggest things. 782 00:37:21,792 --> 00:37:24,822 And, um, you know, we use it all the time for this podcast. 783 00:37:24,822 --> 00:37:28,932 We use it to help us come up with titles and, and to summarize the podcast. 784 00:37:29,382 --> 00:37:33,942 Um, and the, the first time you see it do something like that is amazing. 785 00:37:34,292 --> 00:37:35,002 We're not real. 786 00:37:35,622 --> 00:37:35,862 we. 787 00:37:37,257 --> 00:37:39,357 You remember the episode? 788 00:37:39,357 --> 00:37:42,147 We actually made ai, we made our AI voices. 789 00:37:42,177 --> 00:37:46,317 We actually had an episode where we had, we had, uh, 'cause the editor that 790 00:37:46,317 --> 00:37:49,047 I use has an AI copy of our voices. 791 00:37:49,047 --> 00:37:54,417 And I can fix, if I say words wrong, like I say the wrong word, I can actually 792 00:37:54,417 --> 00:37:58,107 fix, uh, I can swap it out with my voice. 793 00:37:58,347 --> 00:37:59,937 And that offends some people. 794 00:38:00,987 --> 00:38:01,527 Sorry. 795 00:38:02,007 --> 00:38:04,767 Um, but uh, yeah. 796 00:38:04,947 --> 00:38:05,127 Anyway. 797 00:38:05,187 --> 00:38:07,227 we talked about all these use cases, right? 798 00:38:07,227 --> 00:38:07,797 I think the 799 00:38:07,872 --> 00:38:08,202 Yeah. 800 00:38:09,267 --> 00:38:17,697 that I think is important is a person focused on backup, your primary goal 801 00:38:17,697 --> 00:38:21,147 going all the way back to the beginning is your insurance for the company. 802 00:38:21,177 --> 00:38:22,797 You cannot fail that job. 803 00:38:23,382 --> 00:38:23,742 Right. 804 00:38:23,742 --> 00:38:26,472 The company looks at you for that last line of defense. 805 00:38:26,472 --> 00:38:27,942 We're making sure everything works. 806 00:38:28,002 --> 00:38:32,262 All these other things about doing more with backups are in addition 807 00:38:32,262 --> 00:38:34,122 to that core foundational thing. 808 00:38:34,452 --> 00:38:40,242 If you ever falter and sort of take away from that core foundation, 809 00:38:40,692 --> 00:38:41,802 none of this other stuff matters. 810 00:38:43,677 --> 00:38:45,297 I, I couldn't have said it about it myself. 811 00:38:45,297 --> 00:38:47,307 That that's actually gr That's a great point. 812 00:38:47,367 --> 00:38:54,087 Um, persona that you, you, that this is about bringing value to 813 00:38:54,087 --> 00:38:55,647 the thing you're already doing. 814 00:38:55,647 --> 00:38:57,567 You cannot stop the thing you're already doing. 815 00:38:57,837 --> 00:39:00,387 And let me give you a perfect example of something that I have 816 00:39:00,387 --> 00:39:01,737 talked to some people about. 817 00:39:02,577 --> 00:39:05,427 Things I'd like to do with a backup where I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. 818 00:39:05,937 --> 00:39:06,267 Okay. 819 00:39:07,077 --> 00:39:10,047 And this is this idea of the right to be forgotten, 820 00:39:10,317 --> 00:39:10,737 Mm-hmm. 821 00:39:10,947 --> 00:39:11,337 right? 822 00:39:11,907 --> 00:39:17,697 Where people have discussed the concept of surgically altering backups to 823 00:39:17,697 --> 00:39:20,787 take your name out of the backup data. 824 00:39:21,417 --> 00:39:22,947 And I'm like, I'm sorry. 825 00:39:22,947 --> 00:39:26,667 That is just, that is, that is fundamentally against. 826 00:39:27,552 --> 00:39:29,952 The backup, the design of all backups. 827 00:39:29,952 --> 00:39:30,672 Known demand. 828 00:39:30,672 --> 00:39:31,812 You cannot go. 829 00:39:32,427 --> 00:39:36,507 You know, go and, and, and alter backups besides the fact that 830 00:39:36,537 --> 00:39:38,877 just backups should be immutable. 831 00:39:38,982 --> 00:39:39,342 Yep. 832 00:39:39,627 --> 00:39:40,947 your backups are immutable. 833 00:39:41,067 --> 00:39:44,577 They're probably not statistically speaking, but hopefully they are. 834 00:39:45,117 --> 00:39:46,857 And if they're not, you should be looking at that. 835 00:39:46,857 --> 00:39:50,007 Go read, you know, listen to our episodes about immutability and how 836 00:39:50,007 --> 00:39:53,067 important that is and how easy it is actually to do that nowadays. 837 00:39:53,067 --> 00:39:53,397 Right. 838 00:39:54,387 --> 00:40:01,257 Um, versus bugging the, um, but you, you, you, you can't. 839 00:40:02,697 --> 00:40:05,847 You can't go focusing on these to the, to the detriment of, 840 00:40:05,907 --> 00:40:07,527 of the core function of backup. 841 00:40:07,527 --> 00:40:07,857 Right. 842 00:40:07,917 --> 00:40:09,837 It's gotta, it's gotta do that. 843 00:40:09,927 --> 00:40:13,917 Um, because if you do ever actually need your backups, uh, they 844 00:40:13,917 --> 00:40:15,417 need to actually do the thing. 845 00:40:15,672 --> 00:40:16,002 Yep. 846 00:40:17,037 --> 00:40:19,737 Yeah, that's a great point to end on. 847 00:40:19,797 --> 00:40:21,237 Persona, thank you very much. 848 00:40:21,462 --> 00:40:22,722 No, thank you Curtis. 849 00:40:22,722 --> 00:40:25,092 And hopefully my DIY stuff goes okay. 850 00:40:25,092 --> 00:40:30,372 Or I may be calling you and asking you to fly up to Santa Clara to help me 851 00:40:30,477 --> 00:40:30,837 Yeah, 852 00:40:31,032 --> 00:40:31,452 I break, 853 00:40:32,097 --> 00:40:34,797 I think that would be a highly inefficient use of both of our time. 854 00:40:35,997 --> 00:40:38,427 But I'll be happy to have FaceTime, 855 00:40:38,742 --> 00:40:40,002 Yes, listen. 856 00:40:40,227 --> 00:40:41,607 uh, wouldn't be the first time. 857 00:40:42,297 --> 00:40:42,687 All right. 858 00:40:42,687 --> 00:40:45,717 Well, uh, thank you to our listeners. 859 00:40:45,717 --> 00:40:47,877 You know, you're why we're here. 860 00:40:47,967 --> 00:40:49,887 And, uh, that is a wrap. 861 00:40:52,954 --> 00:40:57,634 The backup wrap up is written, recorded, and produced by me w Curtis Preston. 862 00:40:58,204 --> 00:41:03,004 If you need backup or Dr. Consulting content generation or expert witness 863 00:41:03,004 --> 00:41:05,584 work, check out backup central.com. 864 00:41:06,304 --> 00:41:09,424 You can also find links from my O'Reilly Books on the same website. 865 00:41:10,084 --> 00:41:14,074 Remember, this is an independent podcast and any opinions that 866 00:41:14,074 --> 00:41:17,974 you hear are those of the speaker and not necessarily an employer. 867 00:41:18,904 --> 00:41:19,594 Thanks for listening.